Monday, September 14, 2009

The reviews are in... "Bellevue Combines Bad Fashion AND Bad Music"



For some inexplicable reason the much-hyped changes at BBC made the front page of the Commercial Appeal this morning (above the fold, no less). As someone said in the online comments section, "Front page news? Really? Memphis is indeed a backward little place, isn't it?"

A few select comments:


Hey Bellevue,

1997 called. It wants its contemporary service back. The Bellevue guy in the article says you are not embracing a fad. I would disgree, you have managed to adopt a fad from 15 years ago.

Come on guys, good preaching, discipleship, and targeted prolonged outreach go a long way towards the health of a church. And there is no doubt there are a lot good people and a lot of good things going on at Bellevue. So I suggest you just use those assets better to reach folks.

This whole 11:11 business seems a bit cheezy to me. If, as it appears to be the case, Steve Gaines is going to be around for a while, I recommend the follwing two changes instead.

1) Dr. Gaines, please stop referring to people of Far Eastern descent as "Orientals." I know you mean no harm but the proper term is Asian. Oriental=rug, Asian=People. Bless you, sir, but I've heard this several times from the pulpit. It just doesn't help your credibility to use outdated terms.

2) Let's get rid of all billboard ads, or if you don't want to do that, at least quit putting
huge pictures of your pastor's head with Bible verses below it but no scripture reference, just the pastor's name. (I've seen this, I-55 S, just south of Riverside drive.) I know you don't mean to do it, but it looks like you are attributing scripture to your pastor rather than to the Bible.

Just an outsider trying to give the outside perspective.



This is food for thought:

I am all for branching out... if that is what a church wants to do. But didn't Comm. Brooks try to hold a Kwanzaa event in a county-owned facility and there was an issue about that due to it being a religious program? I thought the county said no religious events in any county-owned property (or something like that). If you pay... you can play?!? Comm. Brooks should offer to rent a county-run school for her upcoming event.


Are you listening, President Obama?

Churches should be taxed and exposed for what they are...businesses.


Ouch.

So Fort God loosens its dress code so it can rake in more donations... er... I mean souls.


Yep...

If you want to know what it's all about, just follow the money!



Er... see above.

Wingo is Gaines' son-in-law. Nothing like nepotism to keep food on the table.


Certainly the prednisone is a contributing factor, but don't brag about always ordering the "dessert sampler plate" and obsess over food in nearly every sermon.

Gaines harboring of a pedophile is but one shameful thing he's done. For instance, he had the locks changed on the office to prevent Adrian Rogers (who was rapidly dying of cancer) from entering. He was offered the same amount of money Adrian Rogers made, but Gaines told them he couldn't live on it. Yes, he had the unmitigated gall to expect more money than a man who had been the faithful pastor for 30+ years (and Adrian Rogers used to refuse pay raises). Gaines is a narcissist par excellence. He is as the scribes and Pharisees described by our Lord in Matthew 23. He ties up heavy burdens for the people. He demands honor, and the uppermost seats. He does his deeds to be seen by others. He makes his phylacteries broad and his fringes long. And his rich enablers at Bellevue can't see it. I don't know how anyone who knows anything about him can sit under his preaching.

All that said, Gaines has a serious disease called myasthenia gravis which requires a heavy daily dose of prednisone, a steroid. He has now been on it for years and it has impacted his appearance. Criticize him for his actions, but leave his appearance alone, particularly when you don't know the facts
.


The impression...

JMO but when individual congregations get too big like BBC, the congregation itself becomes the focus of the church and not its religious message.

If I wanted to join an exclusive country club I would
.


I've wondered if this wasn't part of the reason behind "Bellevue Lo♥es Memphis" crews sprucing up county schools, (isn't that what we pay taxes for?), last year's taped message during a morning worship service from county mayor, A.C. Wharton, and appearances by various city and county politicians at church services. A little quid pro quo goin' on here?

For those that are concerned about Bellevue using a county school, it should be pointed out the the county schools have been using Bellevue free of charge for many years. Several schools hold their graduation services at Bellevue and some schools hold football camps at Bellevue as well. I also believed that city and county wide teachers meetings have been held at Bellevue at the beginning of school years in the past.

Also, Bellevue sends out volunteers to clean, repair and spruce up county and city schools once a quarter as part of their Bellevue Loves Memphis program
.



From the article:

"I was in the staff meeting when Adrian Rogers announced he was retiring (after 32 years in the pulpit)," said Jim Barnwell, director of communications. "He said it was time for a younger man to lead Bellevue Church, and I think music is one of the things implied in that."

Really, Jim? You think these extremes in "music" were what Dr. Rogers was "implying"? Personally, I think that whirring sound we've heard the past few years is coming from Memory Hill Gardens in Bartlett, but maybe I'm imagining things. I saw a clip from yesterday's "11:11" service, and all I could think was I'm glad Dr. Rogers isn't here to see this. Of course, if he were still here, we wouldn't be seeing this.

For all the hype leading up to this, from the clip I saw, it was all rather anti-climactic. Maybe they need to drag out the fog machines and funky lights from i2Memphis. Seeing Ryan Wingo dressed in a sloppy shirt and wrinkled khakis making goofy faces, strumming a guitar, and chewing on the mic is getting rather old.

Does anyone recognize the setting for
this? Is it a rock concert at FedEx Forum? A Saturday night fun fest at Autozone Park? No? Watch the whole video for the answer. You know, there is a good reason it's called "the sanctuary"!

211 comments:

1 – 200 of 211   Newer›   Newest»
New BBC Open Forum said...

And let's not forget these infamous words from the "Communication Committee":

Why did the music change?

For years, Dr. Adrian Rogers sought to have a blended style of worship. When Dr. Rogers retired in March 2005, Dr. Jim Whitmire led us
[or was "led" by someone else] to update our music while continuing to have a blended style of traditional and non-traditional songs. When Dr. Gaines came in September 2005, he encouraged this process to continue. Dr. Gaines has said he wants all of us to worship together and to not divide the congregation over music with separate traditional and non-traditional music services. The objective is to have a blend of approximately 50 percent hymns and 50 percent new songs in each service.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Seriously, there is no "traditional" service at BBC. Hasn't been in several years.

Bill said...

The biggest thing missing in all of this is GOD!!!!

The object and purpose of worship is NOT WHAT MAKES US FEEL GOOD!!!!!!


The object of worship should be God and His glory. We are nothing to God, but He has chosen to make us something by His Grace.

True Worship is the people of God proclaiming the majesty, glory, power, beauty, mercy, and grace of God through song, prayer, the sacraments (ie communion), the reading of the scriptures, and in the proclamation of the Gospel of God's redeeming love to His people.

BTW, a KISS concert is much better, the pyrotechniques are great

Bill said...

Maybe I did not do a very good job of explaining earlier, but the worship of God is meant to be a Holy activity. Something that is noble and good.

The puritans often said that "worship is the most noble act of which man is capable"

How sad, that there are many which think that Worship is something that is supposed to make them "Feel Good". This type of worship cheapens the glory of God and exchanges manna from heaven for goat feed.

May God have mercy on our souls.

Romans 5:1 "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ"

New BBC Open Forum said...

"The church's peak attendance came in 2001-2002, when it consistently averaged more than 7,500, Barnwell said. From February through April this year, excluding Easter Sunday, the church's average attendance was 6,400."

Oh, puhleaze! Either they've changed the way they calculate "attendance" since 2001-02, or someone is "embellishing" because there is no way the rarely half-filled auditorium of today reflects only an 1100-person drop from the packed services of 7-8 years ago. Get real.

gopher said...

The following is numbers given by David Coombs in the last year end finicial report of June 30 2009

"Here"


Where does Jim Barnwell get his numbers from?

In 4 years since Steve Gaines arrived, these are the drops in attendance:

All Sunday Schools down 3000
Sunday Morning Worship 930 down 2000
Sunday Morning Worship 1100down 1200
Evening worship was down 1300

-

New BBC Open Forum said...

It's fuzzy math.

3000 + 2000 + 1200 + 1300 = 7500

TN Lizzie said...

The numbers can be manipulated to show exactly whatever point they are trying to make.

For example:
To show a decline, count only the seats filled in the congregation.

To show an increase, add in the choir/orchestra/sunday school attendance/bed babies/nursery workers/parking volunteers...


Don't accept any numbers at face value. Ask 'em who they counted to get the numbers!
___________________________________

That video makes my heart hurt.

In the morning, when I rise give me Jesus.
You can have all this world, Just give me Jesus.
When I am alone, give me Jesus.
You can have all this world, Just give me Jesus.
When I come to die, give me Jesus.
You can have all this world, Just give me Jesus.

Just give me Jesus.

32yrs@bbc said...

"The call for entertainment in worship in our time is often cast in a particularly seductive form. Entertainment is often sold in the name of evangelism. We are told that we must make worship interesting and existing for the unconverted so that they will come to church and be converted...But we must remember: entertainment is not evangelism, and evangelism is not worship. People are evangelized, not by a juggler, but by the presentation of the Gospel. And while evangelism may occur in worship as the Gospel is faithfully proclaimed, the purpose and focus of worship is that those who believe in Christ should gather and meet with God...Faithful worship, where the primary purpose is the meeting of God with His people through His Word, may well have the secondary result that unbelievers will come to faith. But worship must not be constructed for the unbeliever. Rather, it is for God and the church. The whole service in the church, then, must not be shaped for either entertainment or evangelism. Instead, it must serve to unite the people of God for their meeting with God.
-from Pleasing God In Our Worship
-Robert Godfrey

32yrs@bbc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Slow to speak said...

I am so excited! Hymns are history at Bellevue! Finally, we can get some music that I can dance in the spirit to. That blended stuff suffocated me, I need a good guitar solo to get me really worshipping. I can't wait until Steve preaches in his Bermuda shorts and flip flops....we are going to rock the flock!

New BBC Open Forum said...

"I can't wait until Steve preaches in his Bermuda shorts and flip flops...."

I can.

gopher said...

Comments from Tuesday's Commercial Appeal that were published on Page 2 in the "Top of the Web" section.

by fourwheeldriver

Since Adrian Rogers died Bellevue has really gone downhill. Dr. Rogers would have never tolerated such music in the Church! Dress like slobs, rock music, might as well go to a KISS concert for as much good as it will do you.

by lakelandtiger

My church, which is in Cordova and very close to the Bellevue campus, began a contemporary service about 10 years ago. It is doing very well, thank you. But our traditional service has held its own and is now beginning to grow because of the great leadership we have in our music ministry.

by rwright

I like outdated contemporary worship services a whole bunch! First, we get to throw theology right out our stained glass windows so that we can get the same stuff that we've had all week long. Cause what’s really important is that church members leave their own churches and join ours. Second, when we see the world not listening to us Christians anymore then we can simply tell our local church to "entertain us." It's really hard to sacrifice one hour of my week in order to worship God in reverence and a bit of silence.



And this is all free advertising....

Jim Barnwell should get a raise...


-

Bill said...

Amens to 32 and Gopher!!

Again worship is not for the lost, nor is it to appeal to the lost. ONLY the people of God can truly worship God. There is a word for the sinner singing a christian hymn--that word is blasphemy!!

MOM4 said...

Christians should focus on Christ alone, not on Satan's imitators. Believers must look for the blessed Hope and not fix their gaze on the things of this world. Read Hebrews 12:2 and Titus 2:13. The churches have gone from wolves in sheep's clothing to just plain wolves. I am glad I won't be sitting there when the Lord comes back!

Been Redeemed said...

"The churches have gone from wolves in sheep's clothing to just plain wolves."

Agreed. They have dropped their sheeple clothes and now we see them as they are in their hearts.

zmcrusader12 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
32yrs@bbc said...

I and 3 of my friends were saved at "the rock concert" which their is a link to in the bottom of the article. If it were not for the event that yall are condemning i would still be condemned to hell.

1:58 PM, September 16, 2009

The Lord God Almighty can redeem anyone anywhere anytime when a heart is truly repentant and seeking Him. I would say you were
saved in spite of the venue you were in - not because of it. Emotions run rampant when music is pulsating and loud. The Lord speaks to our hearts in a still small voice - not thru head banging "music".
"Emotions are the shallowest part of our beings. God does not do His deepest work in the shallowest part." A. Rogers

New BBC Open Forum said...

Britt,

I can't get your comment to publish. Feel free to repost it.

Bill said...

ZM

What are you basing your salvation upon?

What is your understanding of the Gospel?

BTW, we are told in scripture that Methods DO Matter!!!

It is solely through the preaching of the Gospel that we are converted!! OR In the case of some (me) through the reading of the scriptures!! That is the means that God uses to bring us to Christ. Nowhere in scripture are we told to use drama or plays or appeal to the flesh when it comes to promelgating the Gospel--God has established the "Ear Gate" not the "Eye Gate" for the conversion of the soul.

BTW, I do have some reservations that you are trying to justify the sillyness of this garbage--hopefully I am wrong

Worship and the preaching of the Gospel are HOLY events with an emphasis upon HOLY.

I like many others look forward to your response!

Have a Great Day

Romans 5:1

all-about-the-truth said...

Zm: I am so sorry for the way those on this blog have responded to you. As you can tell, they have zero idea who the speaker was and how Biblical, strong and convicting the sermons were. Those on this blog love to treat everyone as they have treated you. Let the words roll off your back, God will have the final say.

If they get their way, the future generations will be lost and will go to Hell. They will have blood on their hands, but they will at least have "their" music and "their" services. It is like reading a list of liberal talking points. The truth and the facts are not relivant. They will find out one day that it is not about them.

WishIhadknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
WishIhadknown said...

Remember back in the days at the start of the Diaspora. We never and have never said worship our way. We repectfully asked and some even cried for a traditional service. No, we were told you will worship in the way I decide. We are one concregation we were told, we will not have different services. The truth is you only want believers to worship your way! Once again you point the false finger of accusation only to find three pointing back.

ZM we rejoice in your decision and encourage to grow in truth and knowledge of the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Just understand, it is not the event that is objectionable it is the venue.

Peace Love and Grace to all!

Slow to speak said...

I will not listen to a Preacher who wears a suit. He is not culturally relevant and cannot connect with my spirit. Why can't you people get it? Spiked Hair, soul patches, and an ear ring help a preacher get to the heart of this generation. I am choking on your hymnal.

zmcrusader12 said...

In response to Bill
and Mr. 32 years at BBC. I am rather offended that my salvation is being questioned by people i would consider to be brothers in Christ. But to verify it, I am basing my salvation on the love and foregivness of Jesus Christ, Francis Chan preached the word in a way that I had never thought of before and really opened my eyes and my heart. And I wouldnt classify the music as headbanging. It was just upbeat and frankly thats one of the main reasons i went to the confrence, if it was going to be like regular church music i had sat through most of my life i would not have gone. As for the understanding of the gospel i guess it's pretty good i've been a baptist for 7 years now and heard all the things. But it wasn't until this confrence that everything clicked.

BTW(lol) the music was also the main way i talked 1 of the "3" i mentioned earlier into coming. He stated that church music didnt interest him and i assured him this band was upbeat and could relate to us. And now he never takes off their t-shirt haha.

I hope I am now validated, ZCM

New BBC Open Forum said...

Zm: I am so sorry for the way those on this blog have responded to you. As you can tell, they have zero idea who the speaker was and how Biblical, strong and convicting the sermons were. Those on this blog love to treat everyone as they have treated you. Let the words roll off your back, God will have the final say.

If they get their way, the future generations will be lost and will go to Hell. They will have blood on their hands, but they will at least have "their" music and "their" services. It is like reading a list of liberal talking points. The truth and the facts are not relivant. They will find out one day that it is not about them.


{sarcasm} Right. There's nothing we want more than for "all future generations to be lost and go to hell." {/sarcasm} You just destroyed any credibility you ever had with that ridiculous assertion.

I'm glad the speaker preached Biblical, convicting sermons and that "ZM" and his friends were saved. I'm not questioning it, but I hope it was a genuine experience not brought on by the emotion of the moment. (This happens in all types of worship services.) But we weren't discussing the speaker, were we? Wonder why the makers of the video didn't show the message instead of the rock concert.

Let's ignore Steve Gaines' documented lack of integrity and the events of the past several years for now and just have a serious discussion about why you and your peers feel the need to come here screaming "hatred and lies!" while offering no evidence of either.

Is your whole issue "worship style"? Look, I have no problem with anyone worshiping in any way he can remain in his "comfort zone," but Bellevue was a thriving, traditional-style church for many years, and if the style suddenly became not to some people's liking, it seems to me they should be the ones to "if you don't like it, leave." What SG and the people who brought him here who had inside knowledge of what he intended to do did was irresponsible at the least. (I happen to think it was a lot worse than that, but I'm trying to be nice.)

The "style" of Bellevue was here long before any of us, and it has "morphed with the times" fairly seamlessly over the years, but if a group wants to go all-out "contemporary," then by all means go somewhere and start your own contemporary-style church. Wear your t-shirts, flip-flops, and "holey" jeans, crank up the volume, fire up the smoke machine and funky lights, dance in the aisles, and have a high old time. I doubt anyone here would criticize you for worshiping in whatever atmosphere makes you comfortable and attracts the world. But do not hijack an existing church and cram extreme "change" down the throats of the people who are, for the most part, bankrolling it and not expect some opposition!

Bellevue hasn't had a truly "traditional" service in several years, so even if one did want to sit under SG's preaching while worshiping in a "traditional" style, one still doesn't have that choice at BBC. I actually don't have a problem with separate "traditional" and "contemporary" services. (Just let me be out of earshot before you crank up the amps.) But for heaven's sake, "traditional" means just that, not the ear-splitting, "blended," praise-band style of late.

As for "ZM," the only person who had responded when you posted your comment was "Bill," so I'm not sure who the "those" are. Do I agree with everything "Bill" said? Actually, no. But he has as much right to his opinion as you do, and at least he backed up his opinions with some semblance of logic and reasoning. All you can do is point your finger at people and call them liars and haters.

I don't hate you or "ZM" or Steve Gaines. I don't like you very much right now, but I don't hate you or anyone else. You can disagree with someone without hating him. People like you and "Britt" (whose comment I've asked him to repost) cannot seem to engage in a rational discussion and have yet to give one example of the "hatred and lies" this blog is accused of "spewing."

New BBC Open Forum said...

Wish,

Your 8:38 p.m. comment is an example of the same things "Britt" and others have done. You're better than that!

New BBC Open Forum said...

I guess "Britt" has left the building, so since it's not fair to comment on his comment without posting it, I'll post the full text of his comment from this afternoon here. For some reason it wouldn't publish when I hit "Publish."

Britt said...

My goodness, such hatred and speculation! Please, if you are going to deal with facts negitively, then fine. But don't speculation when you have no basis on which to speculate. Of course, these words will probably mean nothing to you.

"Speak the truth in love"...seems like the last two words have been missing in the blog posts for time....of course, when what you are speaking is not truth, I don't guess it has to be in love. Carry on then!

1:25 PM, September 16, 2009

zmcrusader12 said...

Speaking for myself i can say that my experience was 100% genuine. I dont mean to carry on on and get all deep and technical. I just saw this article and felt like i needed to share what happened. Yall are entitled to your opinions and i will try to respect that. All i know is that Bellevue works for me and alot of others and i feel like i can grow there. Everything hasn't gone 100% smoothly but the bottom line is that this "rock concert" brought tons of kids to Christ and most of every even they do is geared towards bringing people to Christ.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I am basing my salvation on the love and foregivness of Jesus Christ...

ZM,

I wrote my lengthy response above before I saw your last comment, but as I said, I'm not questioning your salvation. That's not my job. One question though... did Francis Chan mention repentance?

all-about-the-truth said...

From front page:

For all the hype leading up to this, from the clip I saw, it was all rather anti-climactic. Maybe they need to drag out the fog machines and funky lights from i2Memphis. Seeing Ryan Wingo dressed in a sloppy shirt and wrinkled khakis making goofy faces, strumming a guitar, and chewing on the mic is getting rather old.



Do you not see anything wrong with that? You are making fun of someone. You expect others to take this place serious when most is made up of things just like that. It seems like it is impossible for you and others on here to make comments that do not include put-downs and disrespect.

Do you know Ryan's heart?? NO!! He is a very Godly man and God has gifted him in a mighty way. Your words show you do not care about that. You just do not like him, his dress, his style, and on and on.

What is not traditional about the 9:30 worship service? How was it different last week from 5 years ago? How is it any different than Faith Baptist? BTW, I have nothing against Faith, it is a great church with great leaders.

zmcrusader12 said...

I have repented, I can't remember specifically if he mentioned repentance. But i know that turning around, fleeing from earthly things and that sort of thing were mentioned, so at the least he implyed repentance. Also in my last comment on the 2nd to last line i meant to say everything, not every even or whatever i said.

New BBC Open Forum said...

AATT,

Nope. I'm not making fun of Ryan Wingo. I'm describing what I've witnessed the past couple of years, not judging his character or the state of his heart, unlike what you're doing to me and the people who read and comment on this blog.

New BBC Open Forum said...

ZM,

Glad to hear it. Thanks.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Oh, and the title "Bellevue Combines Bad Fashion AND Bad Music" came from a comment on the Commercial Appeal article. I happen to mostly agree with the writer's sentiments, but I can't take credit for it.

all-about-the-truth said...

Anyone who would read that would think you were making fun of him or something at his expense. The entire blog is filled with this and always has been. The Bible is pretty clear on these things.

Matt. 12:34

all-about-the-truth said...

So do you think i would like the way you dress? Do you think I like your music? Do you think I would like how your house is decorated?

Not sure, but I strongly doubt it. Fact is, unless you were a very close friend, I would never make fun of you about it and especially try and claim it had anything to do with ones relationship to God. Doing those things on a blog or in public, not a chance, that would be out of the question.

all-about-the-truth said...

A very quick google search would show you how solid Francis Chan is. He goes overboard with the kids and would probably have many doubting for a second because it is so convicting.

32yrs@bbc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...

The "sensual motion" you're talking about could have been anything. I would not classify that as anything inappropriate, especially considering we have no idea what the context is. For all we know he was talking about two earthworms inching across the ground or a fish swimming. Again, I was not discussing the speaker or his message. I've never heard of Francis Chan and am not criticizing him in any way. According to "ZM" he preached a solid, gospel message. It was the undulating masses and ear-splitting rock music in the video which were, IMO, in an inappropriate venue for such "expressions." Actually I'm surprised anyone could hear his message after being exposed to such high decibel levels.

New BBC Open Forum said...

The problem is: all-about-the-truth is reacting emotionally and not listening to reason.

Oh... then AATT must surely be a woman. After all, that's what women do, isn't it?

all-about-the-truth said...

32 posted: I saw the Chan fellow do a sensual
motion with his hands.


I am really going to hold back here. That is sick and I am shocked. That is not the first time I have read stuff like that on here. He was PREACHING the Word of God and he is a great man of God. Get your out of the gutter. Your post should be removed. You are very disrespectful and yours words say alot. I cannot believe you would post that.

Case in point and proof of the lies this blog is based on. You see or hear something and twist and turn it into the worst possible outcome you can think of. If one just glanced at that part of your post and many others on here, they could easily think you or others are not Christians. I am obviously not saying that, but giving that example to prove how dangerous this place is.

You owe Francis Chan an apology.

all-about-the-truth said...

My posts include facts and not emotion. I know that emotions are ever changing and can be dangerous.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Note the difference between my response to "32yrs'" comment about the hand motion and AATT's. I'll let you be the judge as to who is responding with "emotion" and who gave a measured response.

32yrs@bbc said...

AATT you will notice I have removed the post that so obviously offended you. I do not want to intentionally offend anyone or stumble them in their faith - especially a brother or sister-in-Christ. It's sad that we cannot disagree without being disagreeable. And it is sad that one perception out of an entire comment can be used to negate the context of the comment. That said -
"Grace and peace to you through
God our Father and our Lord Jesus
Christ.

all-about-the-truth said...

I responsed that way because it is nothing new and not the first time. I understand, agree, and get your point, but enough is enough. You can claim emotion all you want, I knew exactly what I was posting. His tone was the exact tone I have seen on here many times. Just like all the "wonderful", "Godly", "uplifting" things to posted and copied to make the heading for this new thread.

There is no doubt that if Christ was sitting beside you, this blog would not exist. You and others would not post what you post. There is no doubt about that.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I thought "32yrs" made some good points.

"Fools don't learn because fools
don't listen." - Chuck Swindoll


You are correct:

NASS was very clear in rebuttal to all-about-the-truth about what the root problem at BBC is which goes much deeper than style of worship. The problem is: all-about-the-truth is reacting emotionally and not listening to reason.

What's wrong with this?

I reread my comment to ZM and I see nothing personally offensive or hurtful. I did not question
his/her salvation. I rejoice along with the angels whenever a soul is saved. I did question the
venue. I was not there but I did view the video, and I have raised teenagers. What I saw and heard was a carbon copy of a rock concert where young people become consumed by their hormone-charged emotions.


That's what it looked like to me, too. I'll respectfully leave out the comment about the hand motion.

Again - worship is not about getting high on Jesus. It is about bowing before our Holy God and
worshipping Him in Spirit and in Truth.


Who can disagree with that? I guess someone can. Someone sent me this quote from a blog of the son of a BBC staff member who is himself a "worship pastor" at another church.

Every Sunday morning when I prepare to lead worship I tell the Lord that going to corporate worship is like a drug.

Lord, help us!

all-about-the-truth said...

Thanks for ignoring many of my questions and comments.

As to the quote you have issue with. I think you are reading something into if that is not meant. It understand, but it seems they are using what I would call "edgy" terms.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I just looked at the CA article for the first time since yesterday morning and am shocked to see the comment stream still going strong with over 450 comments. Admittedly it appears about 95% of the comments have nothing to do with the subject of the article; however, there are a few comments I found interesting.

There's this exchange among "InChristAlone," "ilovethetigers," "Rebelyell," "sleepingcity," and "keepslivingit":

ILTT: Speaking of the issues at hand:

http://newbbcopenforum.blogspot.com


ICA: Please do not look to that blog for your info. It is full lies and hate and represents what is wrong with the church today. They will stand before the Lord one day and will have to answer for every word.

ILTT: Lies and hate? That's one lie YOU will have to answer for one day. Have you ever read the blog? I'll bet you haven't! You've been told by your pastor not to read it so you don't because you're afraid of the truth. I have read the blog almost since it started and they have documents and videos to back up their claims. All you can do is shoot the messenger.

ICA to ILTT: You might want to stick to things you know about.

ILTT to ICA: You might want to read about things you don't instead of dismissing them as "lies and hate." You might learn something! Can you give me an example of the "lies and hate" you're talking about? No? I didn't think so.

ICA to ILTT: I have read it and lived it. You are posting on something you obviously know nothing about. I am not going to post "dirty laundry" on here. That would be doing exactly what that blog does and they are wrong. Just spending a few minutes in the Word of God would allow you to see the many sins that surround that blog.

KLI to ICA: Are we reading and living the same thing? Although "the blog" is not perfect - it's far from spewing lies and hatred - whether you believe it or not this is a lot of truth on there. Are you a staff member, that might explain our very different views of what has gone on at BBC the last 4 years - I mean I know you need to keep your job.

KLI (in response to another commenter): "Bellevue is just trying to reach out to the unchurched. They are trying to make changes so that people who do decide to visit can feel more comfortable and in their element. This is something that needed to be done long ago and I'm glad it's being done now."

So, what about the visitor who comes to visit in a shirt and tie and everyone has on their t-shirts and flip flops? How do we make him FEEL comfortable? We worship a HOLY God, not a casual God.

BTW - Do you have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus? Is it casual and flip-floppy? Or instead do you revere Him? God wants the BEST of what you have to offer not what the world says is acceptable.


"flip-floppy" LOL!

New BBC Open Forum said...

(continued)

ICA to KLI: No I am not a staff member. Why not go back to the blog to post?

The very existence of the blog is not Biblical. For every "sin" they point out they are guilty of the same amount or more. They make fun, slander, and I could go on forever. Please do not tell me Jesus would say or do anything on that blog. He would NOT. It is not good enough to claim others are doing wrong to try and justify their (maybe your) actions.


ICA to KLI: You might want to listen to the song "My Jesus" by Todd Agnew. Google it.

It seems that you and your church would not even welcome their Savior in your church. YOUR way, the OLD way, is not the ONLY way. What about that is so hard to understand? IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU AND YOUR CLOTHES. The Word of God is being preached EVERY week at Bellevue. Not watered down, not "seeker friendly". The sermons are the opposite of "seeker friendly". If someone comes in jeans and flip flops and expects to here a watered down message, they will be SUPRISED!! Instead, they will be convicted.


RY: I think it's great that the CA is doing religion stories. They need to do more. I think its sad that the newspaper has failed to address what a split this move to a hippie-stype service has caused within Bellevue.

Their current pastor, Steve Gaines, is a terrible, power-hungry person who kept a child molestor on staff (counseling victims of abuse!)rather than report him to police. He is a follower of Rick Warren as much as Jesus Christ.

You ought to see the video where he essentially says anyone who challenges him is challenging God. Just type: Steve Gaines don't be troublemaker into Google and watch the video. Is this the type of man you want leading your church?

Bellevue would do well to bring back the coats, ties, Baptist Hymnal, member control and throw out the drums, guitars, ripped jeans, praise hymns and Steve Gaines.


ICA to RY: Rebel: I guess you live in miss. because you post is full of lies. You have posted rumors and slander and things you obviously know nothing about. You would fit in great on the blog that was posted.

Bellevue did not split and us doing great. The music changes of late had zero to do with and issues that went on.

Dr. Gaines is a wonderful man of God and preaches God's Word without compromise. He is preaching the same Word he did when Dr Rogers wanted him at Bellevue and everyone loved him.

Rick Warren, not to be rude, but please get clue. Dr. Gaines is the opposite of seeker friendly. Again, post on things you know about.

New BBC Open Forum said...

(continued)

SC to RY: What did Jesus wear?
And let me tell you something, yes my best is jeans and flip-flops. Is that bad? Would I not be allowed in your church? My church does not care what you wear (not Bellvue), they care about the message being taught. That is the first and foremost thing about going to church, to learn about God and grow spiritually. Not to worry about who is wearing what. I talk to God like I would talk to a father if I had one. When I pray, I talk to him in a very personal way. God sees us seven days a week, not just one on Sunday for an hour. Unless you are wearing a suit and tie every day, then either you are faking it on Sundays or you aren't giving it all to God as you are on Sunday. Correct? If it is honestly and sincerely bringing people to God, what does it matter if people are singing praise songs - TO GLORIFY GOD - and wearing the clothes they have? Who said we have to go and buy expensive clothes to praise God?

Another thing. While I don't go to bellvue, if I'm not mistaken the child-molestation was from a very long time ago, and not a recent event. Let's remember Jesus was very close with sinners, and he accepted everyone who was willing to change their hearts and turn to God. Perhaps this man is one of the rare occurances of a child-abuser turning a new leaf for good. Would God not accept him if his heart was sincere? Just wondering, because I was taught to love God and love people, and if this man wants to be a new person and is honest and sincere about changing then who are we to not accept him? Is that not going against the gospel? Don't we want sinners to change? If sinners are not accepted in church, where are they accepted? Where do they have a chance to change for the better? What would God want?


Uh... I don't think anyone said we have to go out and buy "expensive clothes."

ILTT to ICA: Are your initials B.T.?

LOL! I thought the same thing!

ILTT to SC: It was less than 3 years ago. The problem is the staff member who molested his son 17 years earlier was not repentant. If he was, he would not have remained in the ministry. There's huge difference between forgiveness and forgetting. A man can be forgiven if he's repentant and can be accepted back in the body (the church), but sin has consequences in this life. A child molester should NEVER be allowed to be unsupervised around children again. NEVER! Did you know that child molesters have an average of over 100 victims? Some studies indicate the number is about 170. The question should be, even if you believe him to be repentant and changed, would you allow this man to babysit YOUR children? No? I didn't think so.

Steve Gaines and other staff members knew about this man's past at least 6 months before the word got out. Not only did he molest his own son multiple times over a 12-18 month period (he confessed to it), he behaved inappropriately towards women who were sent to him for counseling about - of all things - childhood sexual abuse! He is an EMT and was a first responder whenever there was a medical emergency in the building. Someone found a photo of him wearing a nursery smock pulling a wagon full of children through the church. Even after the church knew about the abuse Gaines was content to keep him on staff saying it was "under the blood." If it had been up to Gaines the man would still be on staff today.

This is not hearsay. There were several articles about this story in this newspaper, and Wendi Thomas wrote an excellent article about one of the women victims.

Today this man is hanging around a church in Fayette County and has been seen attending children's basketball games. His own son will not allow him to be alone with his grandchildren. What does that tell you?

Jesus' words were very clear about someone who would abuse a child!


Amen!

New BBC Open Forum said...

(continued)

ILTT to SC: If you were going to meet with the POTUS or the queen of England would you wear your grungies or would you dress up in your best clothes? Why then would your standards be any lower when you gather to worship the Creator of the universe? Your best doesn't have to be expensive or include a tie, but it should show respect.

SC to ILTT: I just think it's taking focus off of the message and putting it onto things that do not matter. God sees you as you are no matter where you are and he will accept you and love you unconditionally. If you are getting something from the message and you have a strong relationship and are searching for him in everything, then he could care less if you wore casual clothes. I do not think it's disrespectful to wear jeans to church and I will continue to do it. I don't have expensive nice clothes and right now buying them is not a priority in my life. God will take me as I am, sin and casual clothes and all.
I wonder if - not being aggressive at all- if you take casual churches seriously. If you have ever been to one like mine. You should see the passion in these people. The leader of our music ministry is 22 years old. He is young but he has more passion for what he does and for God than anyone I've ever seen. We have a loud band with drums and guitars and singers, but I have never felt more in line and passionate and glorifying God than when I listen and praise God with them. I invite you to come to Highpoint and listen for yourself, the music will give you chills. Not everyone dresses casual, but you will probably not find any suits or coats, but you will find people dressed nice, almost like business clothes.

The message and the energy is what is important. Are people being brought to God, or led away? Some sundays we have many people being baptized, and the testimonies are insane. We have an awesome 'recovery' program for people wanting to change their lives and live for God. I think we are missing the point when we put focus on how we look instead of focusing on God.


SC to ILTT: Well. I must have had some different, wrong information because I thought it was a one time thing (which is still awful) years and years ago. I apologize if I was wrong about that.

If he was not repentant and he is still behaving like this, then he is a false leader and God will handle him. I did not know he molested his own son and did it repeatedly. He should be in prison.

No I would not want him around my children alone. I did not know he was babysitting children alone. I thought he was a deacon of some sort handling adult business.

In the case of a man making an awful, horrible mistake in his life and wanting to change, then I think he should be allowed to be saved and I think God would agree. As for a man who is still abusing children and behaving inappropriately to women, no. He needs to be in prison. He needs to be isolated and under close watch. This is very much a problem. Bellevue is in the wrong and I think that is why people are leaving. False leaders in the church will result in the entire thing crumbling down to nothing. I don't go to Bellevue so I apologize for having the wrong information and I retract my statements. He should be punished by law and then God will take care of him accordingly along with the church.

Bellevue should not represent any other church but Bellevue.


I don't think anyone said PW was babysitting children alone.

New BBC Open Forum said...

(continued)

KLI to ICA: I'm glad to know we agree on "it's not about the clothes" - but don't you see, that's what they have made it about? My guess is you already know, but the leadership directed the ushers and greeters to dress down and wear khaki's. So we have made it about that, haven't we?

Who says Worship is supposed to be comfortable - Worship is a reverent time before a HOLY God. Worship is for the churched not the unchurched - we are to go OUT and make disciples.

No, I don't post on the blog only keep up with it as do many staff members at BBC. My guess about you is that although you aren't on staff you are in some kind of leadership position - maybe a deacon? You might ask why I think that - well every time there is a question or concern about splitting the corporate worship of our church (yes I am a very active member) we all here the same thing about what the Pastor preaches and the sermons. is not seeker-friendly. Now I never said they were or even brought that up - why would you?


KLI to ICA: "Rebel: I guess you live in miss. because you post is full of lies. You have posted rumors and slander and things you obviously know nothing about."

Are you saying everyone that live in MISS is a liar? that's a terrible thing to say - you should apologize before you write one more thing.

He / She is not posting lies but indisputable facts:

- Our Pastor did keep a confessed child molester on staff for 6 months. He admitted this and the investigation confirmed it.

- The weekly church attendance has dropped by almost 40% since Dr. Rogers was the pastor. Again those are facts published in the Annual Report.

- You are correct about the music changes - they have nothing to do with the drop in membership and the controversy surrounding BBC. All of the issues at hand are directly related to our Pastor.


KLI to SC: Thank-you for listening to sleepingcity.

It takes a humble person to admit they were incorrect and to retract their statements.


ICA to ILTT: (in response to the question "Are your initials B.T.?") No

Shoot. I would have bet money that was B.T.!

ICA to ILTT: There are things you and I do not know and will never. Many understood it was known and had been delt with long ago. That is not an excuse of any kind. I know many that act as if they "know everything" about this and they do not.

I do not think this is the forum for this topic, JMHO.


Nah. Not B.T. for sure. She's never had a humble opinion.

ILTT to ICA: What is the right forum then? Underneath the rug?

Ouch.

New BBC Open Forum said...

If it were not for the event that yall are condemning i would still be condemned to hell.

Actually, if it weren't for the grace of God we'd both still be condemned to hell.

I wouldnt classify the music as headbanging. It was just upbeat and frankly thats one of the main reasons i went to the confrence, if it was going to be like regular church music i had sat through most of my life i would not have gone.

So the church is conforming to the world to draw people in. The gospel is no longer sufficient. Still not in any way questioning or doubting your sincerity or your salvation, but somehow to me, there's just something wrong with that.

If we, the body, were doing our jobs and going out into the world and spreading the gospel, we wouldn't need "gimmicks" to attract the world to us. That's not the purpose of the church.

WishIhadknown said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
Wish,

Your 8:38 p.m. comment is an example of the same things "Britt" and others have done. You're better than that!

No, sadly, I am not; a fact that I am reminded of repeatedly. Or as others have said of me, “You have the gift of saying the right thing in the wrong way.

WishIhadknown said...

OK gang here is a question I posed before but never received a proper answer and this is real world. My now 16 year old daughter loves Jesus and serves the Lord. She reads her Bible and shares the gospel. She knows that there is a young man for her but she is not interested in the baggage that comes from dating at this time in her life. In short she is a decent kid.

She finds the things going on in the youth department offensive to the point she will not participate. She refuses to go in spite of my urgings. Where does she get to go to church?

What does it say about the condition of the church when a “decent” kid has nowhere to attend?

Oh, and there are many more just like her who are not accepted in your so called all accepting environment.

all-about-the-truth said...

People of the past would think the Bellevue grace building was a "gimmick". Not the gospel, but "things" are always changing. That is basic concept, but most seem to not get it. Not sure why.

WishIhadknown said...

AATT,
Who objected? A large part of the church? No. Even if it were a small minority their objections would have been heard respectfully. I know because I have been there. That is not the way Bellevue functions today. Today you must walk lock step with what the Pastor commands or you are told you are to go, regardless of how you are dressed. Do not question the Pastor or his motives we are commanded. The problem is that is not Scriptural.
The Church is the members'. The Pastor is to prepare the members to be witnesses. Or as my Pastor said, "This is your Church, I am only the Pastor."

all-about-the-truth said...

Sorry, but I know first hand you are wrong.

First, I loved Dr Rogers as much as anyone, but to ignore the amount of power he had is crazy. He ran a very tight ship and was in control of everything. The big difference was he had "earned it" and was so respected not even staff would dare cross him. I am not comparing the two men, but I sometimes laugh when I hear someone claiming Dr. Gaines is so "power hungry".

WishIhadknown said...

Sorry, but I know first habd I am right.

WishIhadknown said...

Dr. Rogers never ordered people who disagree with him to leave the church. And if he did he would be just as wrong as Steve Gaines.

Slow to speak said...

Did Jesus wear a tie? How did someone decide that Choir Robes would increase our love for the Lord? Would Wesley write songs today to the rhythm of an organ or the rhythm of a band? Where in the New Testament did anyone get dressed up to go to Worship? Why are we fighting over suits rather than praying for souls? Could it be that there are people who control this Blog that are more in love with Tradition than in love with their Savior? Do you really think that my Pastor not wearing a tie really matters to God?
Sounds like the Mullahs have come to Memphis!

New BBC Open Forum said...

AATT,

Wow. I'm impressed! That's the first thing of substance you've written. However, I think you pretty much answered your own argument. Yes, Dr. Rogers "ran a tight ship" and yes, he wielded a tremendous amount of power, sometimes way too much power IMO. The differences, one you already mentioned, were (1) at least he "earned it" instead of usurping it (along with a great amount of respect) and (2) I don't recall him beating people over the head with it and telling them "if you don't like it, leave." I never heard of his wife referring to "taking out the trash" either. If you have such a window into the way things were, you should also know about Dr. Rogers warning SG to slow down and how that went over. (Think "not well.")

New BBC Open Forum said...

We're fighting over suits? Who knew?

all-about-the-truth said...

Let's be honest here. Very very few people would even dare to question Dr Rogers, so we cannot compare. Trust me, there were those that disagreed on things, but trully feared and would never say a word.

all-about-the-truth said...

I think EVERYONE has learned a great deal over the last 4 years including Dr Gaines and he would not say different. Dr. Rogers wanted Dr Gaines because he knew changes were needed and he would make them. I understand many will disagree with how those changes were made and again, many have learned through this.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"Let's be honest here. Very very few people would even dare to question Dr Rogers, so we cannot compare. Trust me, there were those that disagreed on things, but trully feared and would never say a word."

I don't doubt that in the least (what exactly did they fear?), but Dr. Rogers isn't here now. Just because Dr. Rogers did something a certain way doesn't make it the best way. I may be wrong, but I don't think he would have told someone who did voice a different opinion "if you don't like it, leave." Or "we're going to talk about the future of the church and you're not part of it." He was a man, not the "god" some have made him out to be, but I never got the impression he was willing to roll over everyone who got in his way.

Wouldn't you like to see some openness and transparency for a change? After all, you criticize others for not liking extreme changes in music, but as far as the "pastor as king," it sounds like you want to maintain the status quo. What a shame that people today are still looking for a king.

Seriously, what did people fear about questioning Dr. Rogers? I think it's a pretty sorry statement about the working conditions inside a church if the staff is afraid to voice any disagreement with the pastor or even their immediate supervisors. I believe the unwritten rule at BBC is... keep your mouth shut and your head down. If you have a problem and dare say anything, you will become the problem. I-40 is littered with the carcasses of "problems," and yes, I realize this predates the SG era. I like to think Dr. Rogers wasn't aware of a lot of what was going on during his last years as pastor.

"I think EVERYONE has learned a great deal over the last 4 years including Dr Gaines and he would not say different. Dr. Rogers wanted Dr Gaines because he knew changes were needed and he would make them.

Then why did Dr. Rogers tell "Bozo" to slow down? (If you're really as knowledgeable as you portray yourself to be, you'll get that.)

" I understand many will disagree with how those changes were made and again, many have learned through this."

Well, I guess that's "under the blood" now, too, huh? Apparently not many of the people left disagree -- or they're afraid to admit they do. Judging by the attendance, the most important lesson many have learned is that the world really doesn't revolve around Bellevue. Who knew?

all-about-the-truth said...

Very well said slow to speak. That is why I so want this blog to stop and let's focus on why we are here and this is not it. Worship where the Lord leads you and your family.

New BBC Open Forum said...

AATT,

Why are you reading it then? After all, your pastor (assuming that's SG) told you "don't look at that stuff." One Sunday night a few weeks ago he likened reading the blog to going home and dumping the contents of your garbage can on your head. (I guess that's where Donna got the "trash" reference.) That night the number of hits on the blog quadrupled from the average for a Sunday night. I kid you not.

32yrs@bbc said...

The majority of people who exited
Bellevue left not because of the change in music style - tho' they were not comfortable with it - but because of the lack of integrity and the heavy-handiness of the new pastor. These people were not Adrian-worshippers who could not accept anyone different. They knew the time had come for new leadership and were eager to support SG because he was so highly recommended by Dr. R. But, SG was so determined to be his own man and to prove who was in charge that he couldn't - maybe it was out of insecurity - give his people time to grieve over Dr. R's death and adjust to the changes.
Even Dr. R before his death said:
"I have been deceived." And that is a fact.

That said, it is what it is. Nothing can change what has happened. We cannot turn back time. Those who are entralled with
casual contemporary style worship
will find the new Bellevue a happy place to be. Those for whom integrity is not that big a deal will be able to stay comfortably
under the present leadership. Those who cannot abide either have, for the most part, already departed. And God will continue to rule and reign in spite of it all.

But - to AATT and others of like mind - to shut down the blog sites is a form of censorship. The blogs are simply another form of communication. You should feel secure enough in your own beliefs that other people giving their personal opinions should not threaten you. It is through public debate that we learn about, and from, each other.

A good quote:
"True shepherds do not beat their sheep." - Dr. Charles Stanley

WishIhadknown said...

People are oddly silent in answering my 4:00 PM post.
Answers, please.

WishIhadknown said...

Long before Gaines came to town, I stopped wearing a suit and tie to church, specifically Bellevue. I even have worn blue jeans and tennis shoes, I do not like to wear flip flops. No one was offended, no one made me feel unwelcome.
None of us who have been hurt object to what you wear to church; that is your issue, not ours.
If someone wants to wear a suit, I am not going to object. If someone does not wear a suit I am not going to object.
None of us who have been hurt object to so called "contemporary" worship. All we asked for was a "traditional" service, that's all. We were the ones rejected, not you. We were the ones told "no, leave," not you.
Do you not see, the very things you accuse us of are the things you are guilty of? You demand your way with regard to dress and worship, not us.
Gaines caused division, not us. Gaines commanded us to leave and we did.
We did as we were told but that does not mean we do not still care. That does not mean we have to be silent as the church, that means so very much to us, follows a path that we were taught, even before Dr. Rogers, not to go down.

all-about-the-truth said...

32: You had the same tone in that post as you do in most of yours. Let me give you some facts.

1. The Word of God is being preached without compromise at Bellevue.
2. The staff has more freedom and are happier than ever and no I am not on staff.
3. Every single song is Biblically based. Many of the new songs are based more on scripture than some hymns. Thar is a fact. Do some research.
4. Those that remain at Bellevue are not as you discribe, period.
5. The blog is not bad, it is the tone and content. If Christ was sitting beside you, you would not be posting what you are posting. I would think that would be a clue.
6. I could pick apart many churches where ex-Bellevue people go. I do not because that is not my job and it would not be right. And please don't tell me they are all perfect.
7. I could go on forever.
5.

all-about-the-truth said...

You can justify the blog, but not the tone or content.

New BBC Open Forum said...

AATT,

In case you haven't noticed, your tone isn't the best. You didn't answer my questions. Namely...

1. What did the staff have to fear when Dr. Rogers was the pastor?

2. Why are you still reading the blog if it's so offensive?

WishIhadknown said...

Actually I know a number of staff members who stay with the company line because they know what happens if they speak out.
They are not freer and happier.
If Jesus were next to me I would not be posting because none of this would matter. If Jesus were here we would all understand perfectly. Even so, when I asked a question He would answer me.

32yrs@bbc said...

AATT, I notice for some reason my comments seem to "prick" you the most. I always re-read what I write and to me I sound reasonable. I am not angry. I AM sad - sad about the split/ the division in the body of Christ; sad at what has happened to a once strong, united,leadership church. Just because I am no longer there doesn't mean I no longer care. I, and so many like me, invested many, many years of our love and our lives into BBC so of course we
still care.

I know the Word is still being preached at Bellevue and for that I am thankful. And the Lord will always use His Word and the gospel message to draw souls into His kingdom. But something is inherently wrong when the messenger
looks at those in his flock who
question his methodology as being a threat and expendable. I Cor. 13:1: "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels and have not love, I am become a sounding bronze, or a tinkling cymbal."

I would like to ask you this question to contemplate: If the mode of operation that is now at BBC is the way to go, why are the attendance numbers so much lower than 4 yrs. ago (and the much lower numbers are a fact)? Why have so many young couples - even high school and college kids - exited and are now attending more traditional churches? (A fact.)
Could it possibly have anything to do with spiritual maturity in these
younger people? I'm not talking about salvation but spiritual maturity.

AATT, I am truly sorry that my comments are perceived by you to be hateful, angry, unfair - or whatever. I know I cannot convince you otherwise, but they are in no way meant to be.

Keeps Living It said...

AATT,

I believe I know who you are. You were not here when Gaines first got here and when all of the trouble first started. Because you were not here, you cannot be an authority on the issues that you speak about. It would be wise to stop being so confident in the conclusions you are drawing based on your one-sided information.

BBC did not grow to be a mega-church based on music, the Grace Building, community programs, etc. It didn't have to advertise "Bellevue Loves Memphis" we were already doing it and letting God get the Glory.

We didn't have to tell people how to dress and to come to a casual service, as a matter of fact we didn't tell them anything. We did not want to take any credit for what God can do all by Himself.

Adrian Rogers was used by God as an instrument to proclaim the Gospel. God used him to draw ALL people regardless of race, socio-economic status, age and DRESS. Additionally ALL were welcomed as he made that perfectly clear at the beginning of his ministry at BBC. Dr. Rogers never wanted the congregation split or separated based on a style of music. Dr. Gaines made the same public statement when he arrived at BBC - it is all very confusing. Because there is no way to accommodate everyone's musical tastes and styles we need to just focus on Jesus, keep the music blended and keep the congregation together - IMO.

Since being under new leadership, Bellevue is trying hard to continue on in it's own strength - No church can thrive and grow going down that path. In addition, BBC leadership has not properly addressed their past mistakes.

I feel that there is MORE fear amongst the staff now than ever before. Too many of them need their jobs and they know what will happen if they don't publicly tow the line - your position included.

All that said, past and current members know that BBC was not a perfect church, because there is no perfect church until Christ returns. But we should always strive to be the church that God has called us to be.

Keeps Living It said...

32years -

You are one of my favorite posters - although I'm sure we don't agree on everything :-)

Why with such wisdom, are you not back at BBC? Do you not feel some pull for a church you obviously still love so much?

I feel that wisdom is one of the key elements missing from our church.

Just out of curiosity, are you attending anywhere?

gmommy said...

Wish,
In response to your 4PM question about where a good kid interested in growing spiritually should go to church. I don't know that there is a clear cut choice. My child has been visiting around...and not just Baptist churches. Before the fog machines and SG came to BBC...things got a little "canned" for the young people. I remember asking Phil Weatherwax why they didn't challenge the college kids and get more real. He said the majority of the kids didn't want it. That was his opinion,of course...but many of the kids were going other places during or after college for more "meat".
I think maybe serve somewhere during SS and find a good Bible study somewhere outside the church? Or try churches that aren't Baptist.Or maybe become a leader instead of just a participant so your child can have more influence? The small Presbyterian church I go to now offer certain classes and anyone of any age can participate.
I think we may have to get over what we had gotten used to before....a one stop shopping church. Maybe that was good for a time but that time has passed?
I think getting the music you prefer AND deep challenging preaching in one place may be a thing of the past. Or our idea that the preacher should be dynamic....maybe someone not so dynamic but who teaches from the Bible in a pure way (not hunting and pecking for this and that verse to make his particular point) may be a direction we have to choose. Maybe getting over church being where our social life should stem from....and getting involved in several different places and areas as we are convicted and meeting people who care about the same things that way?
I know I still didn't answer your question but these are my thoughts.
Off the top of my head...I would see what Rob's church(Cross Roads Church) has for young people and 1st Evan off Sweetbriar.

And just for the record again....the music had nothing to do with why I left my church home of 25 years...where both my children grew up and participated in all the activities from sports and Bible Drill to mission trips and internships....and where I taught children in SS and VBS and sang in the choir and saw BBC(mistakenly) as a refuge in times of need.
It had NOTHING to do with attire or music. Whoever thinks those are the reasons why thousands left our church home is sadly insensitive and dead wrong. But there has to be some way to rationalize why, doesn't there?

32yrs@bbc said...

WishIhadknown:
There are several traditional churches in the Cordova/Houston Levee/Germantown areas with youth
programs that are active and attractive for teenagers who prefer
not to partake of the Christian rock venue. One of those churches is being led by a former staff member of BBC. There is life after
Bellevue.

32yrs@bbc said...

Keep Living It:

"Just out of curiosity, are you attending anywhere?"

Yes I am, and happily.:-)

"Do you not feel some pull for a church you obviously still love so much?"

The Bellevue I knew and loved no longer exists so I have no desire to return.

And - thank you for your kind words.

32yrs@bbc said...

Keeps Living It:

"Since being under new leadership, Bellevue is trying hard to continue on in it's own strength - No church can thrive and grow going down that path. In addition, BBC leadership has not properly addressed their past mistakes"

You SO nailed it! Not just this paragraph but your entire comment. If you are still at BBC, I would say there is still some wisdom there.

all-about-the-truth said...

Keeps: I have been here for many years. Long long before Dr. Gaines.

all-about-the-truth said...

Just so everyone knows, I know and love and support those at Faith. I also love and support Larry Ray and Rob Mullins. I have recommended them to many.

WishIhadknown said...

32yrs@BBC
Thank you as always for your answer. I know and I know that you know.
As you know I have posted this question several times before and no one with a view different from yours and mine has replied.
I was hoping to hear something substantive from the other side, who claim to care so much for the lost and "loves Memphis."
They claim that we reject them when we do not. They claim to accept everyone but they do not. To them there is no room in the church for traditional kids and that just seems so sad to me.
All of those whose opinion is different than yours and mine should have a ready answer for me and yet they are completely silent.
They fret about what happened under Dr. Rogers and he has been gone for five years.
I am sorry you were so miserable under Dr. Rogers but do you think maybe the Holy Spirit wanted you to be somewhere else?
There is none so blind as he who will not see and there is none so deaf as he who will not hear. And that my brothers and sisters is the truth.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"They fret about what happened under Dr. Rogers and he has been gone for five years.
I am sorry you were so miserable under Dr. Rogers but do you think maybe the Holy Spirit wanted you to be somewhere else?"


Wish,

Did you mean Dr. Rogers or Dr. Gaines in the second sentence?

WishIhadknown said...

all-about-the-truth said...
32: You had the same tone in that post as you do in most of yours. Let me give you some facts.

1. The Word of God is being preached without compromise at Bellevue.

Assuming this is true. There is still Gaines’ tendency to use scripture for his own self serving purposes and to “beat the sheep.”

2. The staff has more freedom and are happier than ever and no I am not on staff.

Give me a substantial pay increase and I would be much happier, too.

3. Every single song is Biblically based. Many of the new songs are based more on scripture than some hymns. Thar is a fact. Do some research.

This is a dead horse you and I could beat on for a long time but surely there are other songs out there that are not from Prestonwood and as for the Brooklyn Tabernacle, we should not be singing those because they are not like faith. As you said do some research.

You one of the funniest things I have seen in the last five years is a contemporary/transitioned church band play “I wish I had Jessie’s Girl” as an offertory. Not sure of the Biblical basis for that one. 

4. Those that remain at Bellevue are not as you discribe, period.

You know I have been waiting to bring this up for some time. It is strange. I run into brothers and sisters all of the time who have left Bellevue and moved on to other churches and we have some of the sweetest times of fellowship. It is almost like a family reunion.

I also run into people who stayed at Bellevue and they cannot wait to get away from me if they acknowledge me at all. Even someone I stood beside and affirmed as he passed through a season of disciplining because of sin did not have the time of day for me when I recently saw him.
It is very weird.

5. The blog is not bad, it is the tone and content. If Christ was sitting beside you, you would not be posting what you are posting. I would think that would be a clue.

Not sure what you mean by tone and content. You and I disagree by definition you are not going to like the tone and content. You are right; if Jesus were here I would not be posting on this blog. You and I would have all of the answers we seek and we would understand clearly but in the mean time….

6. I could pick apart many churches where ex-Bellevue people go. I do not because that is not my job and it would not be right. And please don't tell me they are all perfect.

No church is perfect. No believer is perfect. I certainly am not, just ask my wife. It’s just we all invested our lives so heavily into the church only to have it stolen from us by the new guy that is so terribly painful.

7. I could go on forever.

Do you have more?

WishIhadknown said...

I meant Dr. Rogers. AATT seems to have a lot of resentment regarding Dr. Rogers but stayed at Bellevue. I would never demand that he leave but it seems strange to be apart of a fellowship with which you are so unhappy. And there are others who expressed the same sentiment in the past.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Your comment was addressed to "32yrs." That's why I asked.

32yrs@bbc said...

WishIhadknown:
"I am sorry you were so miserable under Dr. Rogers but do you think maybe the Holy Spirit wanted you to be somewhere else?"

Oh, no! You misunderstood. I was never miserable under Dr. Rogers.
I loved him and respected him as my pastor and grieve that the church he loved has come to what it is now.

New BBC Open Forum said...

If I understand correctly, only the first sentence of the 5:51 p.m. comment was directed to "32yrs." The part about Dr. Rogers was addressed to "AATT."

maybejustmaybe said...

Wish,

Regarding your daughter and what her options may be for worship and growth ...

I am not sure I have any answers because my grown kids are both away from the Lord right now. Any Christian parent can understand, I'm sure, how much that grieves my spirit.

But I can affirm your daughter's experience at Bellevue, as far as the kids' nonacceptance of her, as being on the money. We did not live in the "right" part of town (ironically, where we live is one of the biggest areas BBC "loves" now); we did not have huge budgets for our kids' clothes, shoes, "toys," etc. (perhaps we had it, but managed ours differently); our kids went to public schools and not private, nor were they homeschooled; our daughter was not a cheerleader, our son doesn't play sports; I could go on.

BUT - our experience was not exclusive to BBC. Our kids experienced being ostracized like this in 2 other churches before we landed at BBC, and for pretty much the same reason.

I don't care if a child is learning disabled, untalented or disinterested in music and sports, or has a 3-inch wart on the end of their nose - NO CHILD should ever experience rejection at church for any reason. I never allowed this on my watch when I worked with children and teenagers, and would proactively confront any child who mistreated another under my watch. Children and youth leaders need to be trained to STRIVE with loving on kids no one else notices. Kids (and adults) need to be taught how to come alongside someone and make them feel signicant. They need to be taught (and shown by example) "friendship evangelism" - or, here's another thought, how about just simple friendship?

Just last week my son, who no longer lives in Memphis, was home for the weekend and went to BBC on Sunday night. I asked, of course, how it was. The first thing he said - besides how awesome the Gettys' concert was - was that no one spoke to him. I asked him, are you talking strangers around you, or people you know. He said, "Neither one, but especially people I know." He even named one staff member who looked at him and obviously drew a blank, then spread that big smile on his face, extended his hand, and said, "Hey, man, how's it goin'?" (trying to be relevant, I'm sure). I said, hopefully, "So see? Someone DID speak to you!" He looked at me, totally unfazed by my feigned enthusiasm, and replied, "Mom - that's not speaking. That's 'I don't know who the heck you are ...'"

It breaks my heart that my children are invisible to these churches I have loved so much myself. I can only pray that their salvation is secure and that their journey will lead them definitively back to Him.

At this point, nothing Mom says has as much clout as getting clobbered by reality upside the head three times, though I hope they still hear me singing, "YES, God IS real!"

WishIhadknown said...

My bad. My train of thought switched tracks without warning! Sometime my ADHD kicks in oh look a bunny rabbit.

a said...

maybejustmaybe,

I am not a college student at Bellevue. I have seen what you have said many a time and time again. I sw it in the youth group and now as a college student my friend and I were just talking the other day about how now that we see it from afar we wish it would stop. There are some small groups of teens who honestly accept anyone as their are showing true love and kindness and friendship. I wish this group of teens was bigger though. Ihave seen so many teens in their own little cliques who have no concern for others unless it will earn them more status with an adult. I continue to pray everyday that the teens will become aware of other kids just looking for love and friendship and that they will one day understand that the way they treat others is the way that these visitors (or members) view Chrisitans as a whole (since that is who most teens declare to be). it truly does break myheart. the only thing i can do is pray nad i will continue to do that.

I am so sorry your son came and noone talked to him. That truly is unexcusable in the church.

a said...

and just on a side note (not to stir up any trouble) the rock concert link was used at a DNOW which was led by Student Life. As a co counselor at DNOW I did mention on my evaluation form that I felt the music was not conducive to worship but just more of a concert as well..some of the teens in my group shared the same concern with me...It made me feel good to know that I was not the only one who felt it was more of a concert than worship. ( worship does come in many forms I suppose)
Student life is not coming back to Bellevue this year and bellevue is hostig DNOW i believe. I plan on being a co counselor again and am anxiously awaiting some (non concert) worship music for our teens this year.

32yrs@bbc said...

"I don't care if a child is learning disabled, untalented or disinterested in music and sports, or has a 3-inch wart on the end of their nose - NO CHILD should ever experience rejection at church for any reason."

A big amen to this! I fault the youth leaders (not all, of course)who do not lead by example - who gravitate toward the teens whose parents are active in the church or the teens that are just easier to deal with. The not-so-easy-to-love teens are the ones who
need the love of Jesus and gathering into the fold more than anyone. They are the "lost lambs" who need to be searched out and drawn into the group. It takes lots of time and patience with some but that is how the Lord works with us. Too many quit coming to church and either are never contacted or given up on after a call or two. And those from broken homes (and their names are legion) especially need nurturing in the church.

a said...

my first post should have said i am now a college student not the word not

all-about-the-truth said...

As for the concert, I was ok with it, but parts were not my favorite. I know some of the staff felt the same way. The group of new student leaders are amazing. They are obviously not perfect, but I cam tell you they try their hardest to impact every single student

32yrs@bbc said...

a - Your comment to maybejustmaybe
was very encouraging to me. You are a college student with a sensitivity for others, and you seem to have genuine discernment from the Lord. I pray that you will stay in tune always with Him who loves you so that He can use you for His glory - and I believe you will, and He will.:-)

a said...

all about the truth,
I will agree. I know two of them personally and am getting to know the third. They have nothing but the best interest and personal growth in store for our youth.Their new focus that they shared at the meeting a few weeks ago proved just that. :)

a said...

32yrs@bbc,

thank you your comment was rather encouraging to me. God is amazing and wonderful and saved me so that I may treat others as Christ has so wonderfully treated me.

New BBC Open Forum said...

32yrs,

There you go again with that hateful "tone" of yours!

:-)

New BBC Open Forum said...

gopher,

Love your profile pic!

maybejustmaybe said...

A and 32yrs -

Thank you for your kind words. They mean a lot to me. It's reassuring to hear that others agree and I'm not the only one whose heart is hurt by things like this. And like you, we continue to pray for the church. And forgive as He forgives ... and love as He loves ...

Dr. Bill Loney said...

all this bickerin...what happened to the good ol' days when we talked about nutgrass?

tn_lizzie2000 said...

WishIhadknown said...
OK gang here is a question I posed before but never received a proper answer and this is real world. My now 16 year old daughter loves Jesus and serves the Lord... In short she is a decent kid.

Where does she get to go to church?

What does it say about the condition of the church when a “decent” kid has nowhere to attend?

4:00 PM, September 17, 2009

Dear Wish -

I think it's more about walking through life in relationship with Him than it is about church programming designed to reward those who attend every Sunday, know all the words to the songs, and memorize Bible verses long enough to win a star for their chart.

Where do you go to church? I wonder if they would they allow groups of families to meet together for Bible Study? Can you imagine a grandmother holding someone else's baby, while a Dad from yet another family reads a passage from the Bible? Your DD could study with the grown ups, and pick up fallen crayons and hand them to wiggly 6yo boys. I'll bet she could learn a lot about Jesus as you and she saw families growing closer to Him together.
I wonder if we don't all have it wrong?

When I read the Bible to see what the CHURCH looks like, I don't see her in the institutionalized settings we call "church" today.

Would you and your DD be interested in meeting together with other Believers for a Hymn-Sing? The internet has hymns that could be printed. Maybe we could find a place with a piano (or my 14yo girl plays acoustic guitar pretty well...) and get together for some fellowship?

Feel free to e-mail me. I will have my DH respond to you...

tn_lizzie2000 said...

Dr. Loney - Was that some kind of fat joke?

Nutgrass is also known as "Cyperus rotundus."

I resemble that comment!

gmommy said...

Dr Bill,
God killed the nut grass.
Take care!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Dr. Loney... !

Dr. Bill Loney said...

Sorry : - )

New BBC Open Forum said...

ChemLawn took care of it.

Martin_Luther said...

Can anyone explain

"Hermeneutics"

Dr Steve Gaines try's to explain it Here

or how about

Rabbits Jumping out of the Bushes ?


-

a said...

martin luther,

bro. steve actually didn't try to explain it last night. he just mentioned it and said if you don't know be glad you don't.

WishIhadknown said...

Apparently I am not the only one having trouble with those pesky rabbits.

Anyway, watching the videos reminded me of sitting next to one of SG's former seminary teachers and watching as the poor man twitched through SG's sermon. He never said anything but his body language certainly said alot.

Let's all pray the ChemLawn guy keeps showing up.

Lydia said...

i can grow there. Everything hasn't gone 100% smoothly but the bottom line is that this "rock concert" brought tons of kids to Christ and most of every even they do is geared towards bringing people to Christ.

10:52 PM, September 16, 2009

Over the past 20 years I have heard this same line repeated in many mega youth venues. The problem is thetracking. They are 'saved' at these exciting emotional events and then the majority go on to live like hellions believing they are saved because they made a decision at an event. That is a dangerous position to be in.

The numbers make good copy for the churches and keep the sheep happy. But the truth is that if so many were really transformed as in being Born Again it would become quite obvious over a period of years in that community.

Most simply do not believe that. They say, you have no right to suggest someone is not Born Again. You are not God. You don't know someone's heart.

They miss the whole point of the Gospel. When we are saved, we are transformed and it is quite obvious and it it becomes MORE obvious over the years.

They simply do not believe what scripture teaches about fruit. And that we can judge fruit in the Body. Most of our preachers do not even understand it because it does not fit their needs in church growth tactics. Growing the church is more important than individuals coming to a saving faith in Christ and being sanctified. Many pastors are most likely not really saved. (GASP)

I have heard Chan preach. It was a few years ago and it was good. It was the Gospel. But I also test everything because these guys change as they become more famous. I do not know if he has or not. But I have witnessed too many who have and they tweak the message to fit their premise and needs.

When we are saved, we are transformed and we have a great hunger and thirst for righteousness. We hunger and thirst for the Word, for prayer and worship. Not events, activities and emotional experiences. And as we grow, we see more and more of our sin and are in repentance daily. For a truly Born Again Christian, sinful 'deeds' are not an option because they are too busy battling their sinful thoughts and temptations.

This is not something you will hear at church. Best to read the Word continually.

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

32yrs@bbc said...

"When we are saved, we are transformed and we have a great hunger and thirst for righteousness. We hunger and thirst for the Word, for prayer and worship. Not events, activities and emotional experiences."

I agree to a point. My own personal experience (after salvation) was a gradual process of conviction of various sins in my life, and desiring more & more righteousness as I sat under good preaching/teaching and studied the Word for myself. We need to be very careful in our "fruit inspection" as to whom is truly a child of God and who isn't. Like Lazarus, some are still bound by the grave clothes of their former life. They are still in the process of maturing in Him.

I wholeheartedly agree that a spiritually mature Christian desires more to be fed the Word of
God and to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, than to be entertained by music that emotionally charges them into a
state of ecstasy. When people (old as well as young) jump up from their seats, jump around, & yell: 'Is it God's Spirit that's moving upon them? Or is it their own emotions?' If they are calling attention to themselves or treating the band as tho' they are
rock stars, who is getting the glory?' With that in mind, two
Scriptures to think upon:
I John 4:1 "Beloved, do not believe
every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are of God...";
I Cor. 14:40 "Let all things be done decently and in order."

Now that I am away, I have been forced to examine my motives while there. I love the Lord with all my heart but did I at some point start worshipping my church aside from Him? Did I have a wrong kind of pride in it - thinking that it was invincible - that what happened to other churches could never happen to BBC? Maybe God has allowed this "stripping away" to
see that in the end it is really all about our own personal relationship/fellowship with Him -
nothing more, nothing less.

Lydia said...

"Like Lazarus, some are still bound by the grave clothes of their former life. They are still in the process of maturing in Him."

I had never heard this before. Lazarus was saved when he died. His sister made that clear when she told the Lord, Yes, I will see him on that day.

Strange metaphor you use because it would mean we are not transformed or Born Again if we are still wearing grave clothes of our former life.

We are not perfect if that is what you mean but take heed some very important passages"

Hebrews 10:26-31
1 John 1-5

Have you ever wondered how the book of 1 John seems to contradict itself by saying: if we say we do not sin we are a liar. But then ends with this:

18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.


I am confused to how you can use the death and resurrection of Lazarus with the truth of sanctification. What exactly are the parallels with sanctification?

The Lord disciplines those who are His. That is a fact. He does not allow us to stay in conistent willful sin if we belong to Him.

Most folks mistakenly think in black and white on this subject. 1 John is an excellent explanation of sanctification. Walking in the light vs walking in the dark.

We are to encourage, rebuke and admonish one another in the Body. If that is not fruit inspection, I know not what.

Sanctification has nothing to do with jumping up and down at church. To worship in Spirit and Truth means with the indwelling Holy Spirit and the truth of the Word. There is no other worship. Jesus made that clear to the Samaritan woman.

We are ALL maturing in Him. There is no end to that on this earth and we never fully get there.

But a truly saved person cannot live in consistent willful sin.

The problem lies with exactly what I have been taught and you have been taught. That The Christian life is easy and sin no big deal because it is 'covered'. (ever heard that before?) It was a lie to grow the churches. The Christian life is denying self and taking up the cross and going through a narrow gate. His yoke is easy and burden light but that does not translate into an easy life upon this earth.

This idea that sin is no big deal and to be expected is what keeps our churches employing thugish pastors like Gaines and Brunson.

We simply do not know better because we allowed them to teach us instead of being Bereans.

32yrs@bbc said...

Lydia, Dr. R and others I've sat under have used that analogy of
Lazarus being bound by the grave clothes as a picture of sins that "hang on us" even after we have received Christ as Savior. I found that to be true of my own experience. I just used that example to say we have to be careful as to whom we judge to be saved or not. I am not a theologian - at all! I just can relate that to my own personal spiritual journey.

"But a truly saved person cannot live in consistent willful sin."
I am in total agreement with you on this.

I really wanted to remove my comment after posting it because it was generally my own musings. But - I didn't have the little trash icon and didn't have a clue how to remove it otherwise.

ezekiel said...

32yrs,

Mind if I jump in here?

Grave clothes?

The ultimate end of this sort of thinking is works based salvation. It implies that the saint has more work to do in order to reach perfection, sanctification and this is a work that has to be done by the person, that he can never complete. Wrong, I think. I had much rather look at it as a completed work.

Heb 10:10 And in accordance with this will [of God], we have been made holy (consecrated and sanctified) through the offering made once for all of the body of Jesus Christ (the Anointed One).


Another way to look at it is a poisonous mixture of Old Covenant/New Covenant theology. We constantly want to call ourselves a NT church, under grace, free from the law and it's demands. But then we step right into the pulpit and start preaching sinners, always sinners, God's wrath and adherance to a dead letter. Moses Law.

I explain it a little better on my blog if you care to see my reasoning and the scripture that goes with it.

I have been wrestling with this for several months now, you can probably see that on my blog. I have run across a series of messages in the past week though that sound a lot like what I have been discovering. I can't and don't endorse everything that he says because I simply haven't had time to listen to all the messages, all the way through. So far though, I have heard most of the Abrahamic Covenant message and the Spirit vs Flesh message. I think you will find them a blessing if you car to listen.

John Sheasby

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come!
2Co 5:18 But all things are from God, Who through Jesus Christ reconciled us to Himself [received us into favor, brought us into harmony with Himself] and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation [that by word and deed we might aim to bring others into harmony with Him].
2Co 5:19 It was God [personally present] in Christ, reconciling and restoring the world to favor with Himself, not counting up and holding against [men] their trespasses [but cancelling them], and committing to us the message of reconciliation (of the restoration to favor).
2Co 5:20 So we are Christ's ambassadors, God making His appeal as it were through us. We [as Christ's personal representatives] beg you for His sake to lay hold of the divine favor [now offered you] and be reconciled to God.

The ministry of Moses Law is sin and death. The ministry of Jesus newness of life and reconciliation.

Slow to speak said...

I guess my biggest challenge at Bellevue has been...why have we been trapped in the past? I have watched believers get upset and leave because we don't Worship God in a way that meets their needs. I have heard it said..."I don't feel the same way I used to at Bellevue." Hey Brothers and Sisters...as your favorite Theologian Rick Warren said...Its not about you! So what if our music has changed...so what if we dress more casual...is that really all that bad? How much longer is this Blog going to continue to critisize the leadership at Bellevue? Do you think that when you stand before the Lord you will be proud to say..."Lord, I spent my time and energy and spiritual gifts trying to straighten out Steve Gaines." Will God really say to you..."Well Done?' Is that your job? Is it time to move on?....You probably will justify your bitterness but from one Brother to another Brother...Maybe take this Blog and use it to reach out to the lost or to raise resources for missions or use it to build up and encourage our Brothers and Sisters in Christ...just a thought!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Because none of those things you mentioned are the purpose of this tiny corner of blogdom -- "straightening out Steve Gaines" (he's "large and in charge" and my voice isn't going to change that), the music, the dress, reaching out to the lost, or raising money for missions. Not that none of those things are important. They're just not the focus of this blog.

It never ceases to amaze me how worked up certain people get over "a little beauty shop gossip" and the amount of energy they put into discrediting it. The only person I've ever heard of who was required to read this blog was a former staff member's secretary. Other than that, I don't know of anyone who is forced to read it. If you don't like what's said here, the solution is simple. Stop reading it. Or as I've heard others say about Bellevue, if you don't like it, leave. Oh, and feel free to start your own blog to address any of the things you mentioned. We can all use more encouragement!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Oh, and as for supporting missions, let me remind you what happened almost three years ago when I copied and posted on the front page a comment by a young man and his friend at BBC who were promoting their missions group. The father of one of them was quite critical of the blog and the people who were commenting, and while everyone was quite supportive, both young men requested all information about their group be removed from the front page, a request I reluctantly granted. So unless someone specifically asks me to plug a particular mission project or I have their pre approval, you won't be seeing that here, at least not from me.

Slow to speak said...

This is America and you have every right to free speech! I have disagreed with the leadership of our Church over many of the poor decisions that have been made. That being said, isn't it time to stop ridiculing Steve Gaines? Who is that helping? Like you said to me..."If you don't like what's being said on this blog, don't read it." If you don't support Steve Gaines and Bellevue, go find a Church and Pastor that you can support! I am sure we all love Jesus, I am just not so sure that Jesus loves this Blog!

ezekiel said...

Slow,

I saw Phil Newberry at the coffee house this morning in Arlington about 6:30. Man that guy likes to pump.....

Looking at all the church plant stuff, the buyouts and takeovers all over town and the dwindling attendance at BBC, I couldn't help but think Pump,Pump,Pump

The message that this pertains to is #4 Spirit V. Flesh. It is a good listen, a bit too much on the charismatic side for me but pretty accurate when you look at what we are seeing and the motivation behind it. Not only at BBC but almost everywhere. Pump, Pump, Pump.

You guys ever get tired of pumping and just want to sit and sing a hymn in gratitude, praise and honor of Christ? Some of us do.

I encourage you to just keep pumping away if that is what floats your boat. Just know that your justification and your reconciliation has been paid in full and it doesn't have anything to do with your works.

The next time you slide your 10% in the plate ask yourself if you are doing so out of the abundance of your heart or if you are seeking righteousness based on your works.

Gal 2:16 Yet we know that a man is justified or reckoned righteous and in right standing with God not by works of the Law, but [only] through faith and [absolute] reliance on and adherence to and trust in Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One). [Therefore] even we [ourselves] have believed on Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law [for we cannot be justified by any observance of the ritual of the Law given by Moses], because by keeping legal rituals and by works no human being can ever be justified (declared righteous and put in right standing with God). [Ps. 143:2.]

Have you ever heard Steve preach that sermon?

Britt said...

"a little beauty shop gossip"

So you admit that it is gossip, little or not.

Seems like the Bible speaks harshly of gossips

New BBC Open Forum said...

"So you admit that it is gossip, little or not."

No, dear, I was tongue-in-cheekly referring to it the same way Mac Brunson referred to Watchdog's blog. That's why it was enclosed in quotation marks.

Martin_Luther said...

Britt said...

"Seems like the Bible speaks harshly of gossips"

The Bible also says:

Proverbs 26:18 - As a mad man who casteth firebrands, arrows, and death, 19 So is the man that deceiveth his neighbour, and saith, Am not I in sport?

Luke 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.


now watch listen to the "anointed" one
Here


-

WishIhadknown said...

It's not gossip if it's the truth.

Martin_Luther said...

It just goes to show you what the Dominant Male Leadership at BBC think and how they act toward children (and women as they are the staff and moms that will have to deal with this).

In fact (no lies), Bellevue Baptist Church has canceled the "Fall Festival", and those of you with young children are on
"your own " this year as the Male's have spent the monies elsewhere on their pet projects.


Like the million Dollar VUE, that the college kids can play at.

Redecorating the worship center for the 11:11 band.

The new quarter Million dollar Wide Video Screen and projector for Jim Barnwell.

All the new trinkets for the new Arlington Campus (and don't forget that expensive Staff to man it)

The Half million plus repairs for the new Impact Church.

The Million Dollar Dental Truck (including operating expenses) that sits idle half the time.

Anything else ?

Why can't they just do the simple Fall Festival like BBC used to do that was supposed to be a safe place for small children to go to?

And for those who have not seen Steve with the children here's a " Repeat "


-

a said...

Martin Luther,

I am a college student and do spend some time at the vue. We don't "play" as you have said. There is some fun there. But if you knew first hand how many students from colleges we have brought in (that are lost) that we get a chance to witness too and share the love of Christ with. It is an amazing opportunity and chance we have to reach out to our peers who are in the zone where so many leave church or just party their lives away. The Vue gives us a venue to do that. We are already involved and going to the campus' and asking people what we can pray for them about and handing out flyers (sp) about church services and Bible studies done at the Vue. One thing we do is free pancakes around exam times and when school starts up. Let me speak from experience when I say that around Exam times we had free pancakes from 9 to midnight at the Vue where people could come and eat pancakes and study. There were over 100 people there and I would estimate that more than half of those were people who were not members of bellevue, but they were students from various colleges, who have since then come and vistited again. We get to cultivate friendships with this people and share the love of Christ with them. This ispart of the reason of the location of the Vue it is close to the University of Memphis and Crichton and others.

I did not mean any of this is a negative tone, jsut to say that we reach out to our peers who are lost and we love on them and form friendships with them. I have made so many more friendships and gotten to witness to these friends in a way I may have not gotten to before (because I can't find them all on my school campus). Its such an amazing ministry opportunity. one thing our college minister is stressing so much is its not just a hangout for us but a place for us to invite people in our classes to kick back and relax, or have a nice place to study, or to have fellowship with others. We whole heartedly believe this is a mission opportunity for us. not just a hangout. :) Just a thought on the vue comment.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Has anyone heard any mention of this on any news or radio program? I haven't. I wrote numerous FOX News people, Rush, and others 2-3 weeks ago but have received no reply, nor have I heard but one person mention it publicly. Steve Gaines mentioned it during his sermon last night and denounced it. Thank you for that, Bro. Steve!

It will be interesting to see if FOX or the MSM covers this story tomorrow and if Barack Obama shows up for this event after cancelling the White House ceremony for the National Day of Prayer earlier this year so as not to "offend" anyone. Well, Mr. President, I am offended by this! And I vote.

amo said...

new bbc.
I had heard that it might be happening. But when i saw the website online i didn't know if it was indeed true or just a hoax.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Even Snopes confirms it. Google it.

WishIhadknown said...

a,
The issue is not so much The Vue as it is the capriciousness of the things money is being spent on. The million dollars is a lot of money to have spent for something that will only last for as long as the church is willing to pay the rent.
The question is not, is this a good way to spend money; the question is, is this the best way to spend a million dollars. Personally, I think it would have been wiser to spend the money in a more permanent investment; an investment that is not dependent on a lease agreement.
Everything you mentioned and a lot more could have been accomplished. Bellevue may not have gotten as much of the glory but that is not why the church exists. All glory is to Jesus.
Also, do not confuse good works with witnessing; the two are not the same. That is the difference between a pastor like Dr. Rogers, who was always out sharing Jesus and another pastor who lives in a sheltered world and seldom associates with people in the world. The first learns to understand the heart of the sinner; the latter only listens to what the world says it does not like about the church.
When you actually share your faith you learn it is never about the music. When you share Jesus you learn it is never about the clothes. By sharing Jesus, you learn the real problem is sin. Sin is a hard thing for sinners to give up; it is natural, it is what feels right.
I have wondered off quite a bit but I hope this gives you a small perspective of where we are coming from.
Thank you for being a witness, that is more important than anything. Sharing your faith and being a friend is more effect than a thousand Vue’s.

amo said...

wish I had known,

I do agree with pretty much all that you said. I was not trying to justify the cost. Even I believe it was extravagent and we could have done without some of the things in the Vue for sure. I was merely saying that we don't just play around there. (i never want any controversy in conversation. what i wrote was just a musing on the playing around comment) :)I do also agree that ALL glory is to Jesus and did not mean I wanted more glory to us :) Sorry if I seemed to come off as super defensive.Never meant to be. Just wanted to say that we don't just play around there and we do have more people than just Bellevue kids there. I also agree with your comment on learning the heart of the sinner.
Once again I didn't mean to sound defensive if I came across as such. I am not really very into confrontations (I don't think my posts have cause major confrontations...or at least I hope not. ) I just wanted to comment on the play around comment. and I do agree with it didn't have to cost that much.

Dr. Bill Loney said...

Highly unlikely 4 to 5 new posters is gonna appear singin the same tune, all with clever lil names, all officially blogified september 09, all with the talkin wits of a teenager, unlessin it's the same one.

That's justa buncha nutgrass!

TN Lizzie said...

A couple of thoughts:

~ BBC has learned something. The Fall Festival had gotten waaaaay out of hand! This seems like a good idea!

~ This is from BBC's webpage of Family Fun Festival Ideas:

Five Outreach Opportunities to Include in All Gatherings:
1. Family Photo Booths: Make a family photo of every family that participates. Get the name and addresses of the family. Print two photos during the week and deliver one to the homes on a follow-up visit with an invitation to visit Bellevue. Keep one for your file with the families’ information.


I would NOT allow anyone I didn't know to take my photo and give them my name, address, and personal information.

~ My problem with BBC's "The Vue" is that it completely ignores the Baptist Student Union (now known as Baptist Collegiate Ministries), already set up ON CAMPUS. The BCM used to receive support from BBC, unless I am mistaken. Why must BBC build a new mousetrap to cook pancakes during Exam Week? The BCM has a kitchen, they serve free meals to students on Fridays, and their building is already there.

Rather than spending money for a new "venue for developing community and fostering relationships among college-age individuals from Memphis-area universities," why couldn't BBC just support the ministries that are already doing this job?

(This would be a good place for a "rolling eyes" face!)

amo said...

TnLizze,

Thanks for the information! (seriously I never knew that) Kind of wish they had shared that information with us. Thanks for the new insight I do totally agree.

all-about-the-truth said...

I am not a teenager and not a part of any "group". Can you please post my posts. Thanks.

gopher said...

So for you Steve Gaines loyalist, where's your pastor this weekend? as he won't be in the pulpit,
"again"

Oh he'll be in Tuscaloosa, Alabama watching a "Alabama / Arkansas"
Football game,

I mean what could be more important then winning those lost souls for the kingdom in Memphis,TN? or is it Arlington, TN?

Dr. Bobby Moore will be filling in for him, and of course, for a price...



-

New BBC Open Forum said...

AATT,

You have sometimes sounded like an immature teenager, hence the impression, I guess. No, I will not post yesterday's 1:48 p.m. comment. Nor will I post another outburst like that from you. Instead of screaming like a 3-year-old who didn't get a cookie, why not give us some "facts" about the following?

1. The "Fall Festival" (your words)

2. The "Jamie Parker Show" (your words)

3. Any other misconceptions we may have

You said, "All of reasons you listed Martin are NOT true you need to correct your post and find the truth."

You seem to know "all about the truth." Could you enlighten "Martin" and the rest of us "hypocrites"? Just the facts, please.

Bill said...

You win people to what you win them with!

If you win kids to Christ in the name of feel good music, fog machines, fire engine baptistries, and drama--you ultimatly trivialize the Gospel and turn those seeking God into White Washed Sceplechres.

People MUST BE CONFRONTED WITH THEIR SIN BEFORE THEY CAN BE SAVED!!!! Confronting people with their sin is a heavy task that requires humblesness upon all present--it is here that we are to judge ourselves sinners before God and flee to Christ Alone for Salvation.

If you win them to Christ through the preaching of the Gospel (man is a sinner before a Holy God, worthy only of hell, totally at the mercy of a loving God, who saves those who come to Him in repentance and faith), solid theologically rich songs (proclaiming the majesty greatness and glory of God), communion (we see the sufferings of Christ for sinners here), and baptism (it is baptism that signifies the Final Resurrection to righteousness)--they are won with the Gospel Proper.

Paul said "I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the Power of God unto Salvation".

Isaiah 61:1-2

all-about-the-truth said...

I am not a teenager and not a part of any "group". Can you please post my posts. Thanks.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Keep one for your file with the families’ information.
____________

"I would NOT allow anyone I didn't know to take my photo and give them my name, address, and personal information."

I know. A couple of us were discussing this the other day. Are these "community festivals" going to be openly sponsored by the church? If so, then anyone who allows their family to attend should expect that there will be at least an invitation to attend the church, and that's fine. I can't help but still get the impression that the "Bellevue Lo♥es Memphis" thing -- complete with a logo'ed clothing line, the highly publicized workdays, the painted-up dental truck, and three "satellite" churches (yes, you may not have realized BBC has three "satellites" now) are all ways to sell the "Bellevue brand."

If not, just think how irked some people are going to be if they attend an event like this and discover it was a ploy to obtain their personal information for further contact. Don't get me wrong. I'm all for outreach and visitation (I honestly didn't know until recently that anyone from BBC did visitation), but I hope no one goes about it under the guise of something else (and maybe they're not -- this is strictly a hypothetical).

For example, I've visited other churches and in two cases had a representative from each show up on my doorstep with a gift bag (or in one case a gift basket!) with a no-pressure invitation to visit again and some information about the church. There was no further contact after that. But I had visited that morning and filled out a visitor's card, so I was not caught by surprise. If I'd just attended a neighborhood party and had members of the church (unbeknownst to me) ask for personal information under the guise of being able to bring me a family photo they took, I might feel a little betrayed if they showed up on my doorstep trying to proselytize me. And I would not be pleased to learn one of my neighbors was keeping a "file" on me! Maybe it was just a bad choice of words.

I had occasion to visit Tulsa back in the '90s and had a few hours to kill one afternoon, so I visited the campus of Oral Roberts University. When I went inside the "prayer tower" (think tiny house from The Jetsons) there was a guest book they encouraged (not pressured) people to sign. Thinking this was no different than any tourist attraction where they simply wanted to keep track of where their visitors came from, I obliged them. Imagine my surprise when I returned home the next week and began receiving almost daily calls and mailings trying to get me to donate money! Needless to say I nipped that in the bud quickly! The point is, I felt duped and betrayed.

Regardless, I think this is a much better idea than turning the church grounds into a commercial carnival. Definitely a step in the right direction even if it was forced by dwindling cashflow. If these neighborhood events are a success, maybe we'll see 4th of July neighborhood parties next summer instead of thousands of $$$ going up in a 20-minute pyrotechnic show.

New BBC Open Forum said...

AATT,

1. You're repeating yourself. (See 7:32 a.m.) Senior moment?

2. Dr. Bill Loney said you have "the talkin wits of a teenager." He did not say you are a teenager.

3. I responded to the first copy of your comment at 9:00 a.m. Please provide some "facts" or kindly leave.

all-about-the-truth said...

I will post the facts. There was nothing wrong with my post yesterday. Unreal that you have the nerve to call someone else a 3 year old. You defend "your side" no matter what and the double standard is obvious. It is somehow ok for you to make fun at someones expense (a sin) and call names. My God does not play favors. You need to lecture your own and yourself.

Martins post just through out all kinds of crazy numbers that mislead and had no facts to back them up. Past example, the crazy claims of thousands and thousands of dollars in upgraded to Dr. Gaines car. Was that ever corrected, because it was lie??

all-about-the-truth said...

I only think it matters what those that are being helped and ministered to have to say about Bellevue Loves Memphis. I can tell you, their views are different than most here.

WishIhadknown said...

a or amo,
You did not come off as being defensive and no explanation is necessary. Besides, I do not see the supposed “playing around” as a bad thing; if anything I believe the facility is underutilized and you all should be “playing around” more. By all means, use the facility to the fullest while you have it.

Keeps Living It said...

“slow to speak” -

No-one is leaving Bellevue because you want them to - what is wrong with you???

Please listen to me, whoever you are, you may be a long time Bellevue member, but you could not have been getting the same fine preaching and teaching as the rest of us.

Sounds to me like you were not in the "inner circle" and now with everyone gone you have gotten yourself some kind of leadership position. No wonder you think our Pastor is terrific.

I challenge you to really listen to his sermons (when he's there) with these points in mind:

Does he stay on message, or is he consistently going off on a tangent somewhere?

Listen to how much he talks about himself – I mean he even compared himself to Solomon, who knew?

Does he put down other people and groups on a fairly consistent basis?

Does he sound like a Pastor who cares about his flock, or instead is there a lot of screaming and yelling?

Are the messages truly his own, and if not, does he acknowledge they are part of a popular preaching series?

Are they seeker friendly or a seeker friendly series? Yes I know he always says we are not seeker friendly, but look at how much money we spend to seek some friends.

Do we have any men left who hold him accountable or instead is there just a small few who pat each other on the back and say “look how much we do”? Truly, how does anyone explain the reckless stewardship of Bellevue's resources with the consistent drop in attendance?

Once again, no-one has dealt with the root cause of Bellevue’s problems – until then we will not be as far along as God would have us. Read: Not as good as the old Bellevue

New BBC Open Forum said...

Okay, I changed my mind. I'm going to post your comment, but again, AATT, you seem to need a remedial course in reading comprehension, not to mention spelling and writing coherent sentences. No one called you a 3-year-old. I said you were "screaming like a 3-year-old" (which I still contend you were... and are). I'll let the readers be the judge of whether this is reminiscent of a 3-year-old throwing a tantrum or not.

all-about-the-truth said...

Martin: Your most current post seems to continue the trend for this blog. It gets worse every day. Hypocritical!!!!!!!!

Last year this blog Dr. Gaines and staff for the "Fall Festival". Why don't you wake up and go find out some facts and why this decision was made. Many of you could not stand the "Jamie Parker Show" and then all of a sudden you loved him. Again there, you had no facts.

All of reasons you listed Martin are NOT true you need to correct your post and find the truth.

Also, you still a member?


1:48 PM, September 24, 2009

BTW, what about the questions I asked you? Care to provide us with some facts? You're the one contending we're lying.

I don't recall reading anything about "the crazy claims of thousands and thousands of dollars in upgraded to Dr. Gaines car." Not even sure what you're saying. If you could point me to the comment where that was reportedly said I'll check it out. Or perhaps "Martin" will be able to address that question.

all-about-the-truth said...

Thanks and I understand.

all-about-the-truth said...

Just to keep things fair, Dr. Rogers traveled just as much and even more when he was young. He made tons of money in the ministry. I did not post this to bash Dr. Rogers, I loved and served with him. I posted it because I am tired of Dr. Gaines and others for that matter being held to a different standard compared to him.

New BBC Open Forum said...

AATT wrote:

"I will post the facts."

So no answers to my questions? Seriously, I'm not trying to be argumentative here. You're the one who came here and accused people of being lying hypocrites, yet you've offered absolutely nothing in the way of evidence of that. You call yourself "all-about-the-truth." Well, here's your platform! Let's hear some facts from someone who claims to be in the know.

"Thanks and I understand."

I'm not sure what you're saying you understand, but you're welcome... I guess.

maybejustmaybe said...

Four (or five) satellite churches. There are two in Frayser, or three if they continue an outreach at the Northgate Shopping Center after moving Impact Ministries to its new location. So that's Impact and Chief Cornerstone (plus Northgate) in Frayser, plus the Hispanic church, plus Arlington. And do we count LR's church on Perkins as a "church plant" since we helped them fix up their building? Just wondering ...

New BBC Open Forum said...

MJM,

Good points. My only point, and it was not a major one, was that none of those locations were called "satellites" until they opened Arlington. Before they were missions, then church plants, but I suppose "satellite" or "campus" sounds more hip or something. They went from one campus to three (officially) within the space of a week.

I still think it's interesting that Grant Gaines wrote quite a scathing article about the idea of "satellite" churches as opposed to church plants.

New BBC Open Forum said...

AATT,

I can't speak for anyone else, nor can I confirm or dispute how much Dr. Rogers traveled when he was much younger, but my problem is with the good ol' boys' club mentality so prevalent in the SBC today where the same group of mega pastors (I don't need to name names, do I?) frequently trade pulpits and are off traveling to conferences and conventions, speaking for large honorariums or "love offerings," while simultaneously drawing high salaries and generous perks from their respective churches -- and beating the sheep to give more. I'm not comparing SG to AR in this respect because I don't think this was nearly as widespread a phenomenon when he was younger as it is now.

New BBC Open Forum said...

AATT,

Since you decided to stick around, could you please give us the facts about the following?

1. The "Fall Festival" (your words)

2. The "Jamie Parker Show" (your words)

You said, "I will post the facts."

Inquiring minds want to know!

WishIhadknown said...

AATT,
Maybe you missed it but Dr. Rogers passed away several years ago. So I am not sure what good your repeated attacks and disparaging comments about Dr. Rogers accomplish. Can you please focus on the present?

Martin_Luther said...

Last year the Fall Festival was running over a half a million dollars to put on (why wouldn't the someone complain about the extravagance). That was the time when there was firings many of Bellevue Employees to cut costs for this to happen.

Now that the money is running out the Leadership cuts it off totally and put the spin that were sending Belleuve Love Memphis to the streets.

This is interesting as BBC just started this new program for Single Parents:

Preschool Valet Parking
The Member Development Ministry is
pleased to announce that Preschool
Valet Parking is now available! Single parents arriving unassisted with one or more preschoolers (birth through five) are eligible for this service every Sunday morning on the east side of the
Preschool building from 7:30 a.m.-
1:00 p.m. In the future, Preschool Valet Parking will also include unassisted married parents, grandparents, and friends with preschoolers.

Now that the parents are given a quick entrance to the church (see all those red shirts on the parking lot)

Then they are told that Bellevue won't be having anything for their
children as the Monies have run out. These single parents who work, take care of their children,
shop, transport their kids , run errands, etc (like they have all this extra time) are now told:

"We are asking Bellevue members to ....... hold family-friendly alternatives to Halloween in their neighborhoods."

Seems that if the leadership can't do something big enough to get the news media there, it won't be done.

Here are some big spending events in the past from the Commercial Appeal

"Casual Service 2009"

"Fireworks 2009"

"Into Africa 2009"

"Fireworks 2008"

"Camp Outrageous 2008"

Again :
Why can't they just do the simple Fall Festival like BBC used to do that was supposed to be a safe place for small children to go to?

and not on some dark street


-

all-about-the-truth said...

Martin: If you would just ask a minister at Bellevue they will tell you very simply why not to just fo a "small" Fall Festival".

Wish: I would be happy to stop bringing Dr. Rogers up if those on here would not bash Dr. Gaines for THE very things Dr. Rogers did his entire ministry. Sound fair?

32yrs@bbc said...

Martin Luther:
"Why can't they just do the simple Fall Festival like BBC used to do that was supposed to be a safe place for small children to go to?"

Because simple is not in the agenda, and a simple and safe Fall
Festival would be a repeat, and a reminder, of the A.R. days.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Hear ye, hear ye. Let it be known that AATT does not know any "facts."

YOUR WORDS:

"I will post the facts."

Seems like that would make you a... liar?

What about the demise of the "Jamie Parker Show" (your words)? Any "facts" you care to share about that?

"I would be happy to stop bringing Dr. Rogers up if those on here would not bash Dr. Gaines for THE very things Dr. Rogers did his entire ministry."

In case you forgot, Dr. Rogers is not here to defend himself. He was only a man, not perfect, but to say he came anywhere close to doing all the things SG has done in the past four years is ludicrous. If SG is so wonderful and was only doing all the things her husband did when he was pastor, why did Mrs. Rogers leave?

It's obvious to me you're only here to deflect attention from the real issues. You're welcome to stick around if you have anything of substance to contribute. Otherwise, you know where the door is.

Martin_Luther said...

all-about-the-truth said...

"Just to keep things fair, Dr. Rogers traveled just as much and even more when he was young. "

no question, he did travel, BUT Adrian Rogers always (well almost always) made it back to Memphis to be in the pulpit Sunday. You can't make that statement for Steve Gaines,

gopher said...

".... where's your pastor this weekend? as he won't be in the pulpit, "again"

Oh he'll be in Tuscaloosa, Alabama watching a "Alabama / Arkansas" Football game"


Also Steve Gaines did not preach Wednesday Nights for 4 years and when he started back in July, he's never been consistent.



-

Martin_Luther said...

all-about-the-truth said...

"Martin: If you would just ask a minister at Bellevue they will tell you very simply why not to just fo a "small" Fall Festival"."

please tell us which "minister" we can ask for a truthful answer? One that is not draped in that "Bellevue Loves Memphis" spin.

Martin_Luther said...

Bellevue Baptist Fall Festival 2008

Here is Donna Gaines with last years spin "This is part of our Bellevue Loves Memphis Theme"
"6:00"

and Steve Gaines feeding himself a corndog, and thats Jamie Parker with that funnel cake, remember him?
"5:00"


So its "Bellevue Loves Memphis" if they do and its "Bellevue Loves Memphis" if they don't ,
Don't you just love that spin.


don't forget you can play "#10. Duck, Duck, Goose—Trick, Trick, Treat" at your Fall Festival gathering or is it a Halloween gathering?

Don't worry just get those pictures, names and phone numbers.


-

all-about-the-truth said...

Fall Festival: Trying to use God's money the best way possible and to make sure we share the gospel. There is no underlining crazy reason. It is very good decision IMHO.

Jamie Parker: This blog tore him and the music to pieces when he came back. Nothing good was said. It was a very tough deal all around. As you could, everything was tried. Bringing in others like Mark Blair. When all if this happened then you started praising and defending Jamie. Again, it was a tough tough deal. A question for you, what should gave been done?

all-about-the-truth said...

I have a job and a family. I do not answer to you. You tone speaks volumes. I just posted some facts and will post more.

I was not aware I had a time limit, how funny. Double standard yet again. I have asked things that will never be answered.

You tell others not to call names and you are the first to do so. Also tells me a great deal.

I am sure you will say you are sorry.

New BBC Open Forum said...

AATT,

No one said there was an unlying "crazy" or nefarious reason for them cancelling the big "Family Fun Festival" this year. I agree it was a huge waste of money and resources and that it should have gone. This is a better alternative that doesn't waste a lot of money and turn the church grounds into a literal circus. (Of course, I guess the expenses for these neighborhood carnivals are to be borne by the members rather than the "church," so they're saving even more money.) I believe the reason for this change is simple. I think the coffers are drained or are at least running very low. Nothing "crazy" about making that observation. (IMO it's crazy that they've spent themselves into this position, but I digress.) It's been coming for a long time, and it is what it is.

As for your claims about "this blog tearing Jamie Parker and the music apart," could you please show me examples of all this "tearing apart" of Jamie? Because, I'll tell you, when I wrote the Jamie post a few threads back, I did a thorough search of the archives (that includes the comments) for any comments about Jamie, and I have them compiled in one document. (And before you say another word, NO, I did NOT delete any comments.) I was actually surprised at how few comments there were about JP at all and even more surprised that only a couple could be considered truly negative. A lot of people haven't liked the direction the music has gone, but I don't see a lot of people blaming JP for that.

And seriously, do you ever proofread anything you write? Because that whole paragraph where you wrote about Jamie makes no sense whatsoever! I just tried to read between the lines, but I'm still not sure I completely understand what you were trying to say. What are you asking? What should have been done about... what?

New BBC Open Forum said...

"I am sure you will say you are sorry."

Okay, I'm sorry I wasted my time responding to you. I won't do that again.

all-about-the-truth said...

Your tone proves it is your side vs the "other" side. You cannot respond to me without an insult or slam. Do you not think I could hurl plenty of insults your way and make fun of you? I have not and will not. Before God, you can say nothing to defend yourself, your attitude, your tone, the blog that you are responsible for.

all-about-the-truth said...

What do you feel should have been done regarding Jamie Parker and decisions/changes that were made?

gmommy said...

I knew and cared for Jamie and I once made a reference to the "JP show" when he first came back. That wasn't tearing him apart but it was shocking to witness the drastic changes.
One week we had Jim (who I am not saying is a perfect man) quoting scripture about a song and actually "leading" the music...then bam!!Jamie was running back and forth across the "stage" and in my observation that was preventing "corporate worship". (That's where everyone is participating and no one person is in the spotlight)
BUT...I didn't realize at the time that Jamie was with the current "trend" for "worship leaders".It was just so drastic and such a dog and pony show....NOT that JP was the FIRST dog and pony show ever to be on the BBC stage but it WAS shocking in the beginning.
But hey...I left and that was OK. The people who could stomach a minister who chose (against scripture)to allow a child molester to remain undercover in the ministry could enjoy him and the new way to do church music.
BUT SG could have kept his "covenant deal" with Jamie ...first by advising him against buying a $500,000 house when he moved here. Then when SG was ready to replace JP with the even more trendy SIL ...he could have been up front about the time frame with JP and he could have given some consideration to the fact that he trained JP to "lead worship" in that way and JP trusted him not to throw him away when the wind changed.
For all I know some better deal was offered JP after there was such an out cry but in the beginning he was "thrown under the wheel"...(or some similar example that JP used...I can't remember now)
JP should have seen how JW was treated and known what SG's was capable of.
It makes me think of the "other woman" who marries the cheater but then doesn't expect him to cheat on her.
Those are my thoughts on the situation.

all-about-the-truth said...

The Jamie deal had nothing to do with changing styles. It was about the demands of the job. Jamie is awesome and great at many things and he will be missed. Dr. Gaines has nothing to do with Jamie buying a house.

Dr. Bill Loney said...

" Do you not think I could hurl plenty of insults your way and make fun of you? I have not and will not."

I have a vestigial tail...I can braid my backhair... I have been gored by a goat, mauled by a giant raccoon that I was told later to be something called a panda, nearly pecked to death by a herd of killer emus, brutalized by police in 22 states, have lived in just about every Sasquatch hotzone, have a federal injunction that prohibits Loney procreation, was beaten up by the WMU and the PTA in the same week, had the swine flu and the irritated cow disease(not quite as serious as mad cow disease, but worse than disgruntled cow disease), was stoned by a band of Chinese villiagers, was stoned with a band of Chinese villiagers:), and ...wait...what was I talkin about? Mmmm...yeah, right...sitcoms- BJ & The Bear originally was going to have an actual bear, but after a tragedy while filming the pilot that starred lil known actor Willy Simms(may he rest in pieces), they decided on going with a chimpanzee, and the rest is historical TV magic. They were also worried about hygiene and toilet training, but they finally got Greg Evigan house broken and used to bathing.

Hope that answers your question.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Doc,

Check your mail.

Dr. Bill Loney said...

As mama Loney used to say:

"Bill, as you travel life's highways, you'll encounter many twist and turns, many curves and culdesacs, many intersections and stoplights that don't allow left turns, many detours that reroute you through crime-ridden areas where they will beat and rob you if you slow down, many potholes and speedbumps...if you happen to run over a speedbump only to find out that it was a pedestrian, drive as fast as you can to south Texas and cross over at Nuevo Laredo...don't call for two years and don't return til your brother Phel can steal a cadaver and fake your death in a housefire caused by a malfunctioned hair-dryer."

Pure gold mama Loney, pure gold.

gmommy said...

covenant, promise, commitment, trust.
JP bought that house resting in their covenant relationship. He believed he was at BBC to stay. He didn't have to leave the other church but SG brought him to BBC based on that covenant relationship...according to SG himself.
JP bought that house based on his salary at BBC and not having any reason to think it was a temporary job.
I'm not saying they were wise but JP trusted SG.

WishIhadknown said...

AATT,
Sounds fair?
You are maligning a dead man. Hardly sounds fair.

WishIhadknown said...

The truth is Gaines told everyone that as long as he (Gaines) was around Jamie would be with him. Everyone interpreted that to mean Jamie would have a job as long as Gaines has a job.
To then tell Jamie to find another job speaks to the capriciousness of Gaines.
I could tell of how my interaction with Jamie is different from what others describe here but I do not because it adds nothing useful to the discussion.
I feel for Jamie when I think of how hard it must have been to go home and tell his family he had lost his job at Bellevue. How very sad.

New BBC Open Forum said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
drstevej said...

I do not know Steve G or Jamie but watching the "Sweet, sweet Spirit in this place" video, Jamie looks like a guy who is being used. He is taking one for the troops rather than make a scene.

The expression on his face as he sings doesn't match the words.

Junkster said...

Dr. Loney,
Recent bump to the head? Appears that your communication patterns have reverted to what they were when you were in Memphis, before your return to Loney Mountain. Dare we hope that you have come back to Memphis to reopen your cankle reduction surgery clinic?

New BBC Open Forum said...

(Edited from earlier)

I'd say SG had a whole lot to do with JP buying a $500K house if he promised JP he'd have that job for the next 30 years! Isn't a covenant the same thing as a promise?

And I don't believe it was a matter of changing styles. Jamie can get down and rock with the best of them. (Don't know if his hair would ever move, but they could have him dress down in some wrinkled khakis and a sloppy shirt so as to achieve "the look" they seem to be going after.) I believe it was nepotism. Jamie wasn't engaged to SG's daughter.

I've always thought it was interesting that JW could handle the job just fine, but Jamie, who is some 25 years his junior, seemingly could not. Looking back, I think the beginning of Jamie's downfall (well, at least after RW asked SG's daughter to marry him) was when Jon Tyner departed. Apparently Tyner was doing a lot of the behind-the-scenes work.

Yet... SG knew JP's capabilities, whether or not they were limited, if not before he brought him to Gardendale at least not long afterwards, and he brought Jamie with him to BBC anyway. He had to know Jamie wasn't up to such a monumental job if that was indeed the case. I think he brought Jamie with him as part of a bigger plan to get rid of JW. He used Jamie, pure and simple. He knew Bellevue already knew and liked Jamie and they would more readily accept him than they would a total stranger. The transition wasn't nearly as smooth as hoped, but that's my take on it.

The facts are:

1. Jamie and Dana are very talented.

2. They were terribly hurt by Jamie being thrown under the bus by SG.

3. They are a lot wiser now.

4. They are where God wants them to be.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Since there was a discussion earlier in this thread about church dress standards, I thought some might find this discussion interesting.

all-about-the-truth said...

gmommy: Dr. Gaines brought Jamie to Bellevue planning on them being side by side in the ministry till the end. It did not work. That just happens sometimes. I think anyone would tell you it was a tough deal.

all-about-the-truth said...

Not suprised you would make it about Ryan Wingo and who he happens to be married to. He has nothing to do with it. Mark Blair was brought in because of things lacking. You should be "comparing" Jamie and Mark if anyone.

WishIhadknown said...

So I guess Gaines will always get a free ride. It does not matter who he hurts or how badly. It does not matter who he betrays. It does not matter how many he hurts. It does not matter that his word is not his bond.
Just follow along without question. Let's see if I go to the Bible I wonder how well that worked out?

all-about-the-truth said...

This was very hard on Dr. Gaines. He planned on being with him forever like already posted. As you know, things do change sometimes. They tried all they could. Some of you might want to check with some choir members for more insight.

gmommy said...

Wish,
You're right. No matter what SG does...no matter how his behavior has affected other people....even when he doesn't tell the truth... It's always deflected away from him.
Even the people who said they didn't agree with all his decisions...in general...they would like people to excuse whatever the issue is at the moment.
Just feels so dysfunctional to me.

Maybe in private SG has been sad that he has hurt so many people. Maybe Mac has too. I hope so.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Some of you might want to check with Jamie or Dana for even more insight.

gopher said...

The new BBC will not be "Event" driven any more, as it has not worked for them, therefore the Fall Festival "Event" is canceled. It will remain to be seen as to what other "Events" will be canceled (we will have to wait and see how the "Spirit" leads).

AATT wants to "... be "comparing" Jamie and Mark if anyone" (check this foreshadowing video of Jamie and Ryan made over 2 1/2 years ago)

But now that Ryan Wingo has control of the music at the 9:30 Arlington Service, the 11:11 Main Campus Service and the 6:00pm Main Campus Service....

that only leaves the 9:30 Main Campus Service for Mark Blair as well as any of the Special "Events" that the "Spirit" leads to stay in place. So keep your eye on Mark Blair and see what happens next.

So now that the monies ($$$$) are low, the leaders are acting very concerned about how the monies ($$$$) are being spent and going forward (not looking back) will spend God's money wisely from now on.

"The committee will present their recommendations to the church during a business meeting following the evening Worship Service on October 25.

The 2009 Love Offering on November 22 will help fund Phase 1 of the Long Range Plan."


-

WishIhadknown said...

“Things change” is a very broad and obscure statement. It’s a fill in the blank excuse to justify more bad behavior. What “changed?” The choir members I know are just as mystified as we are.
Speaking of checking with choir members, did anyone poll the choir members before deciding to change from Jim Whitmire to Jamie?
To Mark Blair, keep the resume updated because “things change.”

WishIhadknown said...

I was thinking about how some who post here use facts to compare Dr. Rogers and Steve Gaines and how we are unfair in our criticisms so I thought I might take a stab at it.
When Dr. Rogers came to Bellevue, like Steve Gaines, he was not happy with the first deal given him so he renegotiated. He also did not like the house and car he was offered so that had to be changed too.
I am just stating the facts, what is wrong with that? Does anyone see a problem with my facts? Replies please.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Don't recall ever hearing those facts.

Did you mean "house" or "housing allowance"?

WishIhadknown said...

Doesn't matter. I have presented the "facts" and everything I have stated is the "truth." But, there is a huge lie in everything I have written.

New BBC Open Forum said...

You mean other than the obvious?

WishIhadknown said...

I do not know what the obvious is. The facts I presented are all true but what is missing are the details as follows: Dr. Rogers accepted a lower salary than was originally offered. The house and the car were also downsized from what was originally proposed.
The point I am trying to make is I can state "facts" and I can tell the "truth" while lying. And that's the fact!

Been Redeemed said...

Wish,
Could it be that Dr. Rogers declined some of the ammenities that were offered him, just as he did his raises?

Could it also be that AATT is as blind as a bat without the advantage of the spiritul radar that even the proverbial bat would have?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Ohhh, now I get it! Kind of like Mac Brunson's Clintonesque answer to the Times-Union reporter who asked if it was true the church paid him $300,000 a year. Mac stated his "salary" is "nowhere near" $300,000. Of course, "nowhere near" could mean $100,000 or $500,000. And "salary" doesn't necessarily include (tax-exempt) housing allowance, car allowance (or a customized car), private school tuition for your children, etc. "Facts" can be a lot like "statistics," can't they?

«Oldest ‹Older   1 – 200 of 211   Newer› Newest»