Monday, March 23, 2009

Out of the mouths of babes...



Someone sent me the following last night -- a recent post from "Solomon's" blog. You may recall "Solomon" was a frequent commenter on this blog until about a year ago when he began painting all who disagreed with him as racists (huh?) and accused me and others of lying and wishing him harm, even going so far as to say he wondered if some of us wouldn't like to see him and his family "hit by a bus." No one to my knowledge has ever wished any harm to "Sol" or his family, much less said anything remotely resembling that. I've honestly not paid any attention to anything he has written since then, but I have to admit this made me sit up and take notice.

Daddy, I want to hear about Jesus...

That link no longer works since the article has been deleted, but this was the full text:

That's what one of my daughters said to me after church. "Daddy, can we go to another church next week? I'm tired of hearing about money. I want to hear about Jesus."

Frankly, I've been wondering the same thing. I remember when Steve Gaines first came to Bellevue, he said that every January would be "stewardship month". I took that to mean that at the first of every year the sermons would be about faithfulness with one's time, talents, and giftedness. And yet here we are halfway through March, and all of the sermons have been about money, and how real Christians give at least 10% of their earnings to the church.

A lot of sermons (not just by Steve) have rubbed me the wrong way, but last Sunday's was the first time in my life I felt like getting up and walking out on one. The "lesson" began with images of Bernie Madoff on the imag screen, and a quick summary of his corruptions. A direct correlation was drawn between this corrupt financier and Christians who do not recognize tithing as a mandate for Christians (apparently, even those who give more than 10%). As I was wondering if the pastor truly meant that Christians who don't tithe deserved to spend their lives in jail, Steve quickly added that it was illegal to drive a stolen car, and many of the cars on the Bellevue lot were stolen since they had been bought with money that was stolen from God if their owners did not tithe.

My own views of tithing notwithstanding, is this really a proper way to treat the members of Bellevue? We've put up with an awful lot of unnecessary adversity over the last few years, so don't we deserve something better than to be equated with Bernie Madoff? Isn't the "per capita" giving higher than it's ever been? Aren't we supporting the ministries of the church like never before? Why in the world should we be subjected to a beatdown like that?

"No," I told my little girl. "Just because the pastor is in a slump we aren't going to abandon Bellevue. The church is bigger than one man, even the pastor. Even if he abandons the Bible from now on and lectures and derides us about giving money to Bellevue each and every week of the year instead of preaching the gospel, unless the Lord leads us elsewhere we will still attend this church. Sunday mornings aren't about us, and if it is our lot to share God's word with those who are also discouraged by hearing week after week about money instead of Jesus, then we should accept this role joyfully."

My little girl agreed with me. I wish I was as sure of my words as she was.


Well, I was with him... until the last paragraph. Here his child is crying out to go to a church where she can hear about Jesus, and daddy says, "No, dear. The pastor is just in a slump, and we are going to stay -- even if he abandons the Bible from now on and lectures and derides us about giving money to Bellevue each and every week of the year instead of preaching the gospel." Good grief, man! What's the matter with you? It seems as if you're so loyal to "Bellevue" (whatever that means in your mind) that you are letting your children suffer. You're letting loyalty to a man and an institution trump your command as the spiritual leader of your family to make sure your children are taught Scripture (which I've no doubt they are at home), not to force them to listen to their parents berated and belittled and beat over the head week after week with demands to "give."

You said you weren't as sure of your words to your daughter as she was. Good! You shouldn't be sure of your words in this case because you're misguided, and I sincerely hope this means you're being convicted. Your "role" when you experience this type of spiritual abuse in the church is not to "joyfully accept it." Your role is to warn others and get yourself and your family the heck out of there! I realize change is difficult, but believe me, there is life outside of and after Bellevue.

"Solomon" also wrote an interesting article about the now-defunct i2Memphis. (He has now deleted it. See here.)

He wrote, "My perspective [about i2Memphis] abruptly changed when my oldest daughter, recently turned 13, asked if she could go one night. I told her absolutely not, and asked why in the world she'd ever want to go to a meeting with college students and single adults. Her response was that lots of middle and high school students were going.

Errr... so you already knew about the drinking and sex in the restrooms, but it took your 13-year-old daughter asking to go to jolt you into reality?

He continues, "I was shocked, stunned, and I was scared to death. I couldn't believe that the church would actually allow children into an emotionally charged environment where they were possibly exposed to drinking and maybe even sex."

Why would a church create such an "emotionally charged" environment at all?

Then he asks, "Why on earth was this monster ever dreamed up in the first place?"

Good question. Why, indeed. An even better question might be, "Why would you allow your family to remain in an environment where such things would be allowed to happen in the first place?" Obviously the people who dream up these ridiculous programs are not the types of "spiritual leaders" I would want leading me or my children. Why would you stay in a church that could create that kind of environment and subject your children to it? After all, this isn't the only church event we've heard about where drinking was involved.

Not to dwell on "Solomon," but I can't help but be reminded of this exchange from a couple of years ago.

In a comment on this blog he wrote in response to seeing David Brown on the news discussing, not Bellevue, but the issue of the SBC's refusal to keep a database of convicted and credibly accused sexual predator "ministers."

Quotes from the above comment:

"For the record, I do not want Gaines to be pastor and I am not defending him. Frankly, as a father, such a crime [speaking of Paul Williams] is unimaginable and makes me sick to my stomach. Even though the minister came to him [Gaines] with his wife (the victim's own mother) and gave every appearance of peaceful resolution, it's beyond me how SG could even work alongside someone who'd do something like that, much less keep him on staff."

....

"I was at a circuit city, and the story came on the news about your [David Brown's] 'attack' on the SBC. My wife and daughter started crying to see our church on TV like that. My 10 year old asked if we'd have any more picnics there. My 9 year old asked who that awful man was who was mad at us (it was you). Is that what you want?"

I think people should have been a lot more concerned about Steve Gaines letting a confessed child molester/known sexual predator roam the halls of BBC for six months than the fact that David Brown was shedding light on the issue of sexual predators in the SBC and the leaders of the SBC (Steve Gaines included) turning a blind eye to it or having picnics at the church.

It's been interesting to me over the past three years what has been different people's "last straw." For some it was the way the pulpit committee "chose" Steve Gaines and basically shoved him down people's throats with no "trial period" or ever bringing in any other candidate. For some it was the reports of the new pastor's excessive salary and benefits. For some it was the fence-climbing "incident," the "information meeting" and SG's description of the "itty bitty fence," belittling his congregation at another church, the "communication committee" meetings, covering for Paul Williams for six months, SG's treatment of the victim, the 2007 "monkey business" meeting, the sheep-beating sermons, witnessing their 15-year-old daughter dragged out of a service, handcuffed, and cussed at by a church security guard, or yes, even the change in the music for some. It seems nearly everyone who left had a breaking point. A more recent group exited when they changed the church's mission statement. Amazing to me after everything else that would be the last straw for anyone, but to each his own.

"Solomon" seems like an intelligent man who cares deeply about his family and his church. I'm not trying to beat up on "Sol." He just made me think. The question I would pose to all of us is which is the most important? Hanging on to tradition and remaining "true" to an institution that will never be the same or getting off your blessed assurance and moving to a place where you and your family will be fed? If you can stay where you are and accomplish both, you are probably already in the right place. If not, it may be time to seek the Holy Spirit's guidance. Who knows? His guidance just may come through the voice of a little girl.

79 comments:

Lin said...

Good questions, Nass.

gopher said...

The Love once known at Bellevue is gone....


As Anger (Steve likes to call it passion), is replaced by the Bully in the pulpit of BBC (listen to the 3/15/2009 AM & PM sermons) ,

"...some of you men, some of your wives have wanted to tithe but you won't do it..."

Accuses that those in the pews are "thieves... stealing from God..... driving stolen cars.... wearing stolen clothes, ...women wearing stolen jewelry, diamonds & necklace,.. men eat stolen food for breakfast..." on and on

"... you can follow ... Dave Ramsey, or Larry Burkett, .. or Crown Ministry ...but if you don't tithe it won't work..."



But Jesus said in Mark 13:38-40
"Beware of the scribes...
They rob widows by taking their houses and then say long prayers to make themselves look good.... "

And in John 12:1-8
Look what Judas said when Mary gave a designated gift directly to someone and Not to the "Disciples Storehouse"
"5 Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii* and the money given to the poor?’
6(He said this not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief;
he kept the common purse and used to steal what was put into it.)"

The expenses of the Crosses are nothing compared to the "real estate" buying that Bellevue has been doing.

The new real estate investment company like Loeb, or Beltz except for "church property"

Bellevue Buys Georgian Hills Baptist Church

$800,000 with seller financing $640,000 with payments of $10,666.66 per month for 5 years
(wait a minute, Steve just preached that the borrower is servant to the lender and that
members shouldn't be doing this - James 1:8 a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways)

$223,800 for the Impact church (same as last year with no cuts) in the BBC budget for 180 members

Other Church transactions include
Purchase of Ingesia Bella Vista from Covenant Community Church in 2007 for $475,000 for 180 members.

Chief Corner Stone Church in 2005 for $200,000 with BBC being the mortgage holder for this one

The Vue, another $500,000 + extravaganza

The Grand Opening of the Dental Clinic



Love Worth Finding cut $50,000
Mid America Seminary cut $50,000
Non-Member Benevolence cut $36,000 to $ zero


Sunday night 3/22/2009 PM Steve laid down the law that non tither's are unwelcome to serve at BBC.
(Now Steve is going to want members IRS "1040" for income verification).

So Steve bragged that he "tithe" to BBC

but is that Gross or the Net

Some of his compensation is tax free but is it also tithe free???
Housing Allowance
Auto Allowance
Medical Insurance
Life Insurance
Meals while at church
Etc

Wouldn't it be manly if he could prove his giving according to his "income" !!!


This was after Steve put down Dr Rogers saying:
"... if his bullets fit my gun" (a Dr Rogers quote "..if my bullets fit your gun, you can use them..."),
Steve went on to say "we're not shooting anything around here, that is to kill something,
and we're trying to give some light and preaching someones sermon is a SIN ...it is stealing.."

Bellevue is become more like skiing,

It's Going Downhill

Right... Tim ?

So those who have left for other churches, beware that Steve is trying to play up to other pastors
(including in sermon 3/15/2009, but not limited to: Faith Baptist, Germantown Baptist, Collierville Baptist)
in the Memphis area, to partner with Bellevue "Love Memphis" programs.


"Avoid independent thinking ...questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization."
(Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 22)

"...Lord if I have said anything wrong, I pray that You will forgive me , if I have misrepresented anything Lord,
I don't think I have, but if I have, I lay it at your feet....."
Steve Gaines 3/15/09

Junkster said...

NASS said "Who knows? His guidance just may come through the voice of a little girl."

Good point. I've sometimes wondered what is meant when folks say they are only going to do something (such as join or leave a church) when "led by the Spirit" to do so. Seems to me that God is leading all the time in obvious ways while we sit and wait for a "spiritual woo-woo" kinda feeling.

Junkster said...

About tithing ... I suppose SG and the many other pastors who teach that tithing is required of Christians are just teaching what they've been taught and what they believe is right.

But it has always seemed to me a bit self-serving when they insist that 10% must go to the local church -- the very place that happens to pay their salaries, and the place for which they determine what ministries are important enough to be funded.

Or am I just being cynical?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Uh... I think that would make you a thief! Heh heh heh...

Junkster said...

Oh, if only thievery was the worst sin I had ever committed!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Another "Sol" quote:

"I want to teach my girls to be women of integrity, and to stand up for what's right in the way God would have them do it. If nothing else, they will know that their father did not sit silently by while a man mishandled God's word, or partner with sinners to stop him."

First sentence -- great! Second sentence -- huh? Uh... aren't we ALL sinners?

gmommy said...

"..if my bullets fit your gun, you can use them..."),
Steve went on to say "we're not shooting anything around here, that is to kill something,
and we're trying to give some light and preaching someones sermon is a SIN ...it is stealing.."

What does this mean???? Who is Steve saying is preaching someone's sermon??
The last few times I tried to listen to Steve, he was just too random and fragmented for me.
Is this another one of those type things??? Are does it mean something and I'm confused??

Truett said...

Friend's,

“If my bullets fit your gun” is an Adrian Rogers quote that he made numerous times to young preachers who would ask if they could use his sermons.

He would follow it up with …. “Just be sure your experience fits with what you’re preaching, or God will bring your experience up to match what you’re saying!”

In (Dr. Rogers) wonderful, loving mentoring way he was saying (My interpretation)

“Young man you are welcome to observe, utilized, glean from, etc my sermons, but understand that preaching flows from life experiences, and the living of life, so why you’re welcome to observe, and even use my sermons….you need to know that God desires to develop you and your message, even as he has developed me.”

When Dr. Criswell, the late Pastor of First Baptist Church, Dallas Texas began pastoring he once said “He wanted to original or nothing at all” he said He soon realized “he was both!” I.e. Original and nothing!

It is not a sin to research, read, and even appropriate someone else’s material, provided that proper credit is given to the source referenced!

As a Southern Baptist Pastor with more than 20 years experience, I have loved and benefited from Dr. Rogers life and ministry and sermon style, beyond words, if his predecessor is going to quote him….don’t quote him out of context….he deserves better than that!

gmommy said...

Thanks Truett,
So good to hear from you. Glad to know you are still near by. :)

oc said...

Sol said:
"As I was wondering if the pastor truly meant that Christians who don't tithe deserved to spend their lives in jail, Steve quickly added that it was illegal to drive a stolen car, and many of the cars on the Bellevue lot were stolen since they had been bought with money that was stolen from God if their owners did not tithe."

Speaking of stealing. I really haven't found anything in the Bible that would convince me to justify a pastor to live solely off the people of God. It seems to me to be a bi-vocational endeavor as far as I can tell. Amos the shepherd/fig grower, Paul the tent maker, etc. Maybe by not expecting the church to supply his living, the pastor may be required to depend upon God himself, like the congregation has to, instead of preaching on tithing and brow beating the congregation,... which to me translates to begging his bread from God's people.

Just a thought, but maybe the non-bivocational pastor is the biggest thief of all.

Been Redeemed said...

oc...
Could that be bivocational like Jesus...the Carpenter?

Junkster said...

OC,
You make a good point about the examples in Scripture of prophets, apostles, etc. who worked to pay their own way while fullfilling their God-given ministries. But there are also examples in the OT of those who served and were taken care of financially by God's people (e.g., the priests of the temple, Elijah and the widow). And when Jesus sent out the 70 to preach the gospel (Luke 10), He told them not to take any money with them but to eat whatever was given to them by those who took them into their homes, saying "the worker deserves his wages". Paul wrote something similar in 1 Tim 5;17-18, and in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14he wrote, "Don’t you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel."

So I think it is safe to conclude that there is nothing wrong with the idea of paid, full-time Christian ministry. But it's also safe to conclude that Jesus and Paul never intended to endorse the high-paying, high-perk positions of modern mega-church pastors. So if we had to choose between a high-salaried professional form of ministry and a bi-vocational ministry, I believe that churches would be better served by the latter than the former.

As far as example goes, as best as I can tell, once Jesus began His public ministry, He never drew a salary, or had a housing allowance (or a house!), or owned any more than the clothes on His back. Same with John the Baptist and other prophets. I wonder how many who claim God has called them to ministry would be willing to do so on those terms?

oc said...

Been Redeemed,
Yeah, kinda like that.... No, to be honest... exactly like that!

If this was an Old West poker game, you would have been shot at from across the table. You called my bluff and stole my Ace the hole. :)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Anyone heard about the powers that be at BBC distributing "background check" forms to the workers and this year to the ushers asking for their personal information including place of employment, SSN, and a signature? Maybe Steve is going to really start checking those tithing records. After all, we can't have Betty the Bank Robber "warbling" a solo or Frank the Car Thief showing guests to their seats.

oc said...

Junk,
I had a long fancy post worked up, but for some reason, I think God deleted it!
So I'll just spare everyone and give the summary of what I wanted to say.

My point, which I admittedly didn't make clear in my previous post, is all about intent.
The temple priests, the prophets, the 70 sent out. None of them served for the promise of half a million bucks a year and a country club membership. Heck, I reckon the prophets didn't even profit from their own books! :)

oc said...

"Don’t you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel."

Not to be contentious, but what should we tell bivocational pastors in light of that Scripture?

I've been the bivocational pastor. I know what people think of them. Just not quite worthy enough to make the grade.

And what shall we do with those people? And what of others? They may be preaching the gospel, but maybe not in some building that many may call the church, or at the specified time each Sunday. Maybe not with fancy words. But they do spread the Gospel. Maybe it's on Tuesday, with a kid who just lost her mom. Maybe it's a Thursday, with a co-worker who is grieving for an impending divorce. Maybe the best preaching of the Gospel doesn't even happen on Sundays with convincing and calculated and studied words.
Some do it with very few words at all. They preach the Gospel with their lives while living their lives for Him and others.

Honestly, I'm just wondering where the division is. And who does the dividing. Even though I was the "clergy" at one time, the clergy/laity distinction has never been satisfactorily proven to me.

So who should recieve their living through the Gospel?

padroc said...

Good Morning,

Once again Tithing appears as a presumed to be, New Testament, church doctrine at some churches. And again, I wonder how many Christians have studied to see if there is any evidence for this presumption?

Some may find it helpful and instructive to consider the comments and evidence presented at the following links.

TITHING IS NOT A CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE
by Russell Kelly.

The following essay is a summary of my book, "Should the Church Teach Tithing? A Theologian’s Conclusions about a Taboo Doctrine." The book itself is a greatly expanded version of my Ph. D. thesis. I encourage Bible educators to be bold, to open up seminary level research and to promote studies on this subject in the Masters, Doctorate and Ph. D. levels. This doctrine is simply too important to ignore.

An Essay by Russell Earl Kelly, Ph.D at:

http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/index.html

-----------------------------------

HOW MUCH DO YOU REALLY KNOW ABOUT TITHING: A true and false test.

http://tithing.christian-things.com/howmuch.html

-----------------------------------

This is from:

http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id142.html

and Authored by Russell Kelly, PHD, 6610 Skyview Dr SE, Acworth, Ga 30101
russell-kelly@att.net

Dr Kenneth Hemphill; khemphill@SBC.net

On March 7, 2008 you wrote an article for the Baptist Press which was intended to be a rebuttal of our arguments from the CBS Sunday Morning news segment “To Tithe or Not to Tithe.”

-----------------------------------
Does God require me to give a tithe of all I earn?
John MacArthur
This article originally appeared here:
http://www.gty.org/Resources/issues/608

At Grace to You.

What would be your motivation to give, in light of the Resurrection of Christ? Would you consider yourself a cheerful (hilarious) giver? This is the one whom God loves. Oh what joy to give, but not to a charlatan’s cause who prostitutes the word of God for
personal gain.

Barnabas said...

Do you, every Lord’s day, bring 10 percent of your income PLUS, for the work of God through His church? Do you on God’s day bring God’s tithe that God’s work might be done in God’s way. Or do you say, “I can’t afford to tithe?” or “The church doesn’t need it,” or “I need it worse,” or whatever, and somehow you rationalize obeying God and you’re in disobedience to God and fail to honor God with His tithe on God’s day.
If these things are true about you… you are in bondage. You are in financial bondage and the Devil has you right under his thumb, right where he wants you.

Been Redeemed said...

The tithe is the duty and responsibility of the church membership (God's children), not the visitors and certainly not those watching on TV. They are the mission field he is so adamantly all about "loving"! There is no need to continually beat them over the head for money. If Steve wants to fleece the sheep, let him address it on Wednesday nights when most other REAL pastors do.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"If Steve wants to fleece the sheep, let him address it on Wednesday nights when most other REAL pastors do."

Oh, but you forget... Steve isn't there on Wednesday nights! Neither is anyone else for that matter. Someone who attended a Wednesday night service last month looked around and counted the number of people in attendance and got a total of 125. Someone told me they were told by some Bellevue kids who showed up at Faith last night that BBC didn't even have a Wednesday night service this week. It may have been due to the Passion Play rehearsal, but it was still on the weekly schedule. (Perhaps it was moved to the fellowship hall or some other location and they didn't know about it. I'm not stating this as fact since I have not verified it.)

So now that you mention it, I agree. Wednesday nights would be the ideal time for this sermon series!

Barnabas said...

Men and women today rob God by withholding their tithes and offerings.

oc said...

Been Redeemed and Barnabas,
concerning the tithe.

I think the "tithe" isn't even aimed at the redeemed of Christ. (Please don't pull the Malachi verse on me, because in context, the Lord was chastising the religious leaders for being corrupt). But even so, that might have even been ok BC. But I see a whole different perspective in the NT. I see giving as a reflection of and a reaction to the grace of God, from the heart. Which in fact if realized, would mean a whole lot more than a puny ten percent.
(2 Corinthians 9:7).

New BBC Open Forum said...

I need to clarify something that was rumored in the previous thread about "half" of LWF's staff being laid off. There have been a number of layoffs and a handful of people who've left voluntarily over the past year. With the layoffs this week that's approximately a 44% reduction in staff in the past year. With the loss of pay and benefits to the people whose hours were cut, the across-the-board salary cuts, and the elimination of 401K contributions for everyone, this represents at least a 50% reduction in staff expenditures in the past year. So while all this would be equivalent to laying off half the staff (if there were no reductions in salary or benefits for those remaining), technically that's not accurate, but the bottom line is still the same (or worse).

The wife of the only man laid off was expecting their first child any day. She had the child this week (the baby is fine), but she is in ICU after severe complications from the delivery. One lady whose hours were cut had recent cancer surgery and has now lost her health insurance coverage which she needed for follow-up treatment.

Been Redeemed said...

Barnabas,
Men and women have robbed God since Adam and Eve. It has always been and always will be the case until the Lord returns. To chase after money is a satanic activity. God knows the need of the church or any other faith based organization. If the leadership in operating with true integrity, then they can rely on God to supply the need. If there are shortfalls then there is another issue that needs to be addressed. Perhaps the leadership is not operating within the parameters that God gave them. Greed begins at the top of the food chain, always has, always will. Only the faithful rely on God who supplies ALL the needs according to his riches in GLORY. The rest harp on money all the time.

oc said...

I know LWF is a different entity from Bellevue, but maybe Steve could let go of a tenth of his salary to keep a cancer victim alive. Now THAT would be tithing!

Barnabas said...

Been Redeemed,

Do I take it you disagree with my statements? If so, why?

Barnabas said...

OC,

Same question for you. Do you disagree with my statements regarding tithing? If so why?

Been Redeemed said...

According the the Bellevue budget, they have cut their contributions to LWF quite a bit in the last few years. They have also cut support to Life Choices. While they are supplying free dental care that the government already provides, babies are being murdered and the advancement of the Gospel is apparently in peril. I have no doubt that these children need dental care, but at least they are ALIVE and wouldn't a Saturday door to door evangelism with a track reach them just as much as free dental care? Besides, Bellevue has supported the IMPACT center for years, long before the Gaines came to the throne. (Did anyone see the bit on Channel 13 last night? Donna was in true form.)

This country's economic woes are directly related to greed and as soon as the CHURCH realizes it, the sooner the CHURCH will repent and seek God for the answers instead of harping for dollars and throwing His sheep under the bus.

And Barnabas, I have already clarified your statement. Are you Steve? (seems like a name you would give yourself:)

oc said...

Barnabas,
I believe I answered your question with my 1:40 comment.

Barnabas said...

Is it wrong to point out from the pulpit that people rob God by not tithing to the church?

Been Redeemed said...

Barnabas,
It is never wrong to teach what the Scriptures say about tithes and offerings. It is SIN to give preference to tithes and offerings over the Gospel. When people get saved, the LORD convicts them of their need to tithe and give offerings (which I agree with OC should be well above the 10%)
If they give out of the guilt you lay on them then it is nothing more than blood money and the Lord will not bless it and all the money in the world will never be enough. Have you thought about calling the church to fasting and prayer for the money to run the church instead?

Been Redeemed said...

Barnabas said:
Is it wrong to point out from the pulpit that people rob God by not tithing to the church?
2:47 PM, March 26, 2009

The emphasis you placed in your statement disturbs me.
The tithe is NOT to the church, it is to the Lord. It is His money, not the churches and the leadership is responsible to Him for how they spend the money, hence the problems that were created when the new administration began treating His money like their money.
Herein lies YOUR problem....you are viewing things from a worldly perspective. The church is the Lords, not yours.

Barnabas said...

Been,

You are reading too much into my statement. The tithe is to the Lord, most definitely.

But my statement stands.

...every Lord’s day, bring 10 percent of your income PLUS, for the work of God through His church. ...bring God’s tithe that God’s work might be done in God’s way.

If not, you’re in disobedience to God and fail to honor God with His tithe on God’s day. If these things are true about you… you are in bondage. You are in financial bondage and the Devil has you right under his thumb, right where he wants you.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Is that you, Steve?

Barnabas said...

NBBCOF,

Why do you call me Steve for posting the following?

Do you, every Lord’s day, bring 10 percent of your income PLUS, for the work of God through His church? Do you on God’s day bring God’s tithe that God’s work might be done in God’s way. Or do you say, “I can’t afford to tithe?” or “The church doesn’t need it,” or “I need it worse,” or whatever, and somehow you rationalize obeying God and you’re in disobedience to God and fail to honor God with His tithe on God’s day.
If these things are true about you… you are in bondage. You are in financial bondage and the Devil has you right under his thumb, right where he wants you.

Men and women today rob God by withholding their tithes and offerings.

Surely you don't disagree with that, do you?

Been Redeemed said...

NBBCOF,
Barnabas has to be Steve! He doesn't comprehend or listen to anything anybody else says! He completely negated my comments. However, he may not be Steve because when I think of it, his narcissism would lend his thinking to perceive himself more like a "Paul".

Barnabas said...

Been,

I am genuinely confused. There seemed to be several people taking issue with the position that the tithe is 10% of your income and is to be given to your local church.

I posted a two statements, the first addressed that and the other expanded on it and said basically that if you aren't doing that you are robbing God.

Since this is NBBCOF's site, I would be interested to hear her take on it.

It seems that she and Junkster, and Padroc, and perhaps others were taking the opposite position. I think their position is incorrect, so I'm giving them the opportunity to clarify that.

gopher said...

I guess this "Storehouse Tithing" thing has me confused too.

Your suppose to give to the "Steve Gaines Storehouse" and then they turn around and give it to, for example:

Impact Baptist Church
Free Dental Clinic

ETC,,,

and If you would just happen to have a "need" at the Steve Gaines Church , well it's all gone as it has been sent elsewhere....

So much for a "storehouse" where you don't have a "key" ?

"If anyone doesn't take care of his own relatives, especially his immediate family, he has denied the Christian faith and is worse than an unbeliever."
I Timothy 5:8 ISV

New BBC Open Forum said...

With all due respect, I don't care to discuss the subject with you, Barnabas, nor do I need you to "give me the opportunity" to do so. Interpret that any way you wish... as I'm sure you will.

I'm with Sol on this...

"My own views of tithing notwithstanding, is this really a proper way to treat the members of Bellevue?"

Key word there: "notwithstanding."

Barnabas said...

For the record my words were not my own.

If you care to take issue with them you will have to wait to get to heaven to discuss them with the person I was quoting.

http://www.lwf.org/site/PageServer?pagename=lis_quote

When you get to that page, you'll need to click the link to hear hear the entire message.

32yrs@bbc said...

." While they are supplying free dental care that the government already provides,"

A dentist I used to go to, on certain days of the month, would have a waiting room full of TN Care
patients - mostly children. A MATA bus brought them in to the office in East Mphs. and would wait in the parking lot till the last one's appt. was finished.

Tithing: My husband and I have tithed for 40 yrs. and consider it a privilege to support the Lord's work with our tithes and offerings. And He, in turn, has faithfully sustained us thru good times and bad. "These forty years
your God has been with you; you have lacked nothing" (Deut.2:7b).
That's our testimony.

32yrs@bbc said...

After reading Barnabas' posts, I would like to add this: tithing is between the individual and the Lord. No one should be beat over the head to tithe. If the tithe is not given willingly and cheerfuly then it is not really given as a sacrificial gift to the Lord and so is "wood, hay and stubble" in His eyes. We should give it out of our love for the Lord - not because of legalism or guilt.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thank you, 32yrs. If I were compelled to discuss the subject, and right now I'm not, I would say the same thing. :-)

Been Redeemed said...

Barnabas said:
"For the record my words were not my own."

I KNEW it was Steve! Plagerizing again...

gmommy said...

Whoever writes under the name of Barnabas...and I doubt very seriously if it is Steve....he/she writes like a snake.
And why would you need to give anyone the "opportunity" to clarify? They already did. They gave their opinion and you gave yours.
It's God's business...not a ministers or any other individuals.
I am certain the Holy Spirit can teach and convict from His Word without anyone's help.

padroc said...

Good evening fellow sojourners,

Why are ya'll saying what you’re saying without studying to show yourselves workmen rightly dividing the word of God?

Study! Research! There are those who I trusted for years to rightly teach the word of God without my being a "good Berean" and verifying everything according to the word of God. Tithing is one of those "Baptist" things I trusted my pastor to be right about. And please do not take any of my words to pass judgment on anyone but myself. I am the one who is to be accountable to God to study the word of God and to study that which others have spoken and written as they studied. But if you have been slack as I have been slack then this may be your day to reconsider all that.

Learn who tithed and why. Learn who did not tithe and why. Learn what was tithed and what was not tithed and why. Learn how the tithe was used and why. Goodness sakes, study to learn what God was saying and WHY in Malachi. Principles hold for Old and New Testament and do not become outdated or useless. Lessons and customs and traditions may be applicable to a particular situation over a particular time period for a particular purpose. Importing principles from the Old Testament is right. Importing situational lessons, customs or traditions from the Old Testament into today and stating them as a principle is a lie. Please study. It is good for us. It is hard work, but called for. The links I provided in my post from yesterday just might be a bit of an “eye opener.”

Study to learn how messed up the teachings about the tithe have been for many years by many well studied and trustworthy preachers in our midst. There is an “elephant” in the room. And wow, consider this.

We have a phenomenal.... off the chart situation with regard to the Christian's relationship to things and money. We get to do what no "tither" could ever imagine. We get to give all the time, every moment every day, in so many different ways, for so many different purposes, all as a way of saying thank you to our merciful provider…. God. With this kind of blessing who would want to cut off the gratitude at 10%. Who would want to teach others to deny themselves of the incredible blessing to give hilariously? Who would want to teach and preach so as to destroy a person’s attitude of gratitude by teaching any kind of “pay and play” kind of church? Who would want to go to a church where this kind of teaching is going on?

Just try and figure out how much you would be willing to pay for your salvation and see that God has arranged for that to be an impossibility, so that all you are left with, is giving what you can according to your ability. (Consider 1 Cor. 16:1-2) And prostrate before God with thanksgiving for that. And, the “secret” is; you may give 31% this week and maybe 4% the next week. But then, if you’re living a “trust God” in and for everything life, your right hand will not be keeping track of what your left hand is doing. That is, you will not even know what percentage you’re giving. You will be giving as unto the Lord whatever you can. My guess is that with a cheerful heart, you will out give your own estimation of what would be “proper” by the old method…. Tithing.

As Christ in me, the hope of glory, I have the amazing opportunity to show my gratitude to God.... who is the provider of everything.... for favoring me with His kindness in my salvation, while I give some of all that I have been given. I’ll not mock God by giving Him a percentage. Smile and celebrate as you make out that check.

May God bless each of you in your pursuit of holiness and the truth of God in His word.

oc said...

Thank you Padroc.
That's what I was trying to say in my 1:40 post. Every one screams. No one listens.

ezekiel said...

Barnabus,

I understand your party line quoting of someone elses article and research, now why don't you do yours and get back to us.

But before you get back with us, a few points to look up.

1)You have been told that the Malachi reference is out of context, that it applies to corrupt leaders. Why don't you run the tsk references and check it out for yourself.

2)Don't try the old Abraham and Mechelzedek stuff, Abraham didn't keep any of the loot, he gave it all.

3)You might want to take a serious look at the following scriptures.

1Sa 15:22 Samuel said, Has the Lord as great a delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Psa 40:6 Sacrifice and offering You do not desire, nor have You delight in them; You have given me the capacity to hear and obey [Your law, a more valuable service than] burnt offerings and sin offerings [which] You do not require.

Ecc 5:1 KEEP YOUR foot [give your mind to what you are doing] when you go [as Jacob to sacred Bethel] to the house of God. For to draw near to hear and obey is better than to give the sacrifice of fools [carelessly, irreverently] too ignorant to know that they are doing evil. [Gen. 35:1-4; Exod. 3:5.]

Isa 1:3 The ox [instinctively] knows his owner, and the donkey his master's crib, but Israel does not know or recognize Me [as Lord], My people do not consider or understand.
Isa 1:4 Ah, sinful nation, a people loaded with iniquity, offspring of evildoers, sons who deal corruptly! They have forsaken the Lord, they have despised and shown contempt and provoked the Holy One of Israel to anger, they have become utterly estranged (alienated).
Isa 1:5 Why should you be stricken and punished any more [since it brings no correction]? You will revolt more and more. The whole head is sick, and the whole heart is faint (feeble, sick, and nauseated).
Isa 1:6 From the sole of the foot even to the head there is no soundness or health in [the nation's body]--but wounds and bruises and fresh and bleeding stripes; they have not been pressed out and closed up or bound up or softened with oil. [No one has troubled to seek a remedy.]
Isa 1:7 [Because of your detestable disobedience] your country lies desolate, your cities are burned with fire; your land--strangers devour it in your very presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by aliens.
Isa 1:8 And the Daughter of Zion [Jerusalem] is left like a [deserted] booth in a vineyard, like a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, like a besieged city [spared, but in the midst of desolation].
Isa 1:9 Except the Lord of hosts had left us a very small remnant [of survivors], we should have been like Sodom, and we should have been like Gomorrah. [Gen. 19:24, 25; Rom. 9:29.]
Isa 1:10 Hear [O Jerusalem] the word of the Lord, you rulers or judges of [another] Sodom! Give ear to the law and the teaching of our God, you people of [another] Gomorrah!
Isa 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me [unless they are the offering of the heart]? says the Lord. I have had enough of the burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts [without obedience]; and I do not delight in the blood of bulls or of lambs or of he-goats [without righteousness].
Isa 1:12 When you come to appear before Me, who requires of you that your [unholy feet] trample My courts?
Isa 1:13 Bring no more offerings of vanity (emptiness, falsity, vainglory, and futility); [your hollow offering of] incense is an abomination to Me; the New Moons and Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot endure--[it is] iniquity and profanation, even the solemn meeting.

Isa 1:14 Your New Moon festivals and your [hypocritical] appointed feasts My soul hates. They are an oppressive burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them.
Isa 1:15 And when you spread forth your hands [in prayer, imploring help], I will hide My eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not hear. Your hands are full of blood!
Isa 1:16 Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes! Cease to do evil,
Isa 1:17 Learn to do right! Seek justice, relieve the oppressed, and correct the oppressor. Defend the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, says the Lord. Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be like wool.
Isa 1:19 If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land;
Isa 1:20 But if you refuse and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword. For the mouth of the Lord has spoken it.

If you preacher boys would be anywhere close to as adamant about the message contained in vs
1:16-20 as you are the false teaching of the tithe, the church would look a lot different than it does today. We might actually have folks working a lot harder studying to find the will of God and then to be obedient to that will.

Until then all you are really proposing amounts to nothing more than a modern day version of the temple tax. I hate to break it to you but the sons are exempt. (Mat 17:26)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Interesting...

SAB said...

Micah 3

9 Hear this, I pray you, ye heads of the house of Jacob, and princes of the house of Israel, that abhor judgment, and pervert all equity.

10 They build up Zion with blood, and Jerusalem with iniquity.

11 The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.

12 Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.

I see this becoming more and more prevelent

Barnabas said...

Ezekiel,

The real point here is that it is amazing that a particular pastor gets beat up for teaching something, when it was the exact same thing his predecessor taught.

Was there a uprising against Pastor Rogers for his insistence that the tithe was 10% of your income and was to be given to your local church and nowhere else?

Of course not.

Did anyone accuse him of "sheep beating" for saying if you don't tithe you are robbing God.

Of course not.

All of God's servants are/were imperfect. Brother Steve, Pastor Rogers, Martin Luther, Paul, Moses, David, you, me.

The continued trend of beating up our brothers and sisters in Christ grieves me and I believe it grieves our Lord.

Now pot shots are being taken at Jim Whitmire, Bill Skelton. The list keeps growing every time you turn around.

We need to pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ. Not hold them up for ridicule before a lost and dying world.

Jack Bauer said...

Amen

New BBC Open Forum said...

Barnabas,

Making one statement (or even a sermon) and harping on something ad nauseum for three straight months are two entirely different things. That seemed to be the point "Sol" was making, and I agree. I think Dr. Rogers was a man of integrity, but I did not always agree with him on each and every point. I knew where you got that quote yesterday, and I wasn't willing to take the bait. I was hoping someone else would catch on before you sprung the punch line. I'm not saying whether I agree or disagree with Dr. Rogers on this matter. You took a single quote out of context, so I really can't say. I'd have to listen to the whole thing.

Last I looked there were 66 books in the Bible, and there is no book of Adrian. I mean no disrepect to Dr. Rogers or his memory, but as much as some people would like to think so, just because Dr. Rogers (or any other preacher) said something doesn't make it the gospel truth. I think he would have been the first one to tell you that. Didn't he used to say, "Don't take my word for it... "?

ezekiel said...

Barnabus,

Do you really think things look any better to that lost and dying world when the leaders of these Christians stand in pulpits and call them thieves? Or is it just a one way street with you? As long as the preacher says it, it is ok. Right? No ridicule or condemnation there is there?

Here is a news flash for you. There are a whole lot of those folks in that lost and dying world that regulary send in millions of dollars to charlatans, wolves and whatever you want to call folks that are preaching all this prosperity stuff. If you ask them, most would probably tell you that they do it so God won't forget about them, or God will bless them or God will do whatever to them if they don't. Now just how much punishment are you willing to bear for allowing them to deceive or mislead all those folks into believing those lies? What do you do about it when your pastor starts to sound like one of them?

At the end of the day, what preaching and teaching like this have the effect of doing is telling that lost and dying world that the bride has to pay her own way. That she has to buy affection or redemption or good standing with Christ.

Where and how does that line up with the good news? The Gospel? That Christ paid it all on the Cross. That the ultimate sacrifice was enough, the debt was paid and the account settled for those that believe, those that are in Christ and Christ is in them?

All those lost and dying folks really need to hear is that Christ paid it all. That He did it because He first loved them and the only requirements have nothing to do with money, tithes, sacrifice or anything else. Just simply believe in the Son of God. That being defined as trusting in, relying on and adhering to Christ. The WORD. The Gospel. The Good news!

It isn't a free gift if you have to buy it.

As to the reproach and ridicule, we all to some degree or another will bear shame and reproach because our Master did and we are not any better than our Master. But let's not get shame, reproach, ridicule for preaching and teaching Christ and Him crucified get all confused with ridicule and reproach for teaching error and being a selfish, self centered idolatrous bride who's only real desire is for her lovers. That is the real context where payment is made and it is back ward from what it should be even in the worst of times. Ez 16:33-34

Barnabas said...

And I mean no disrespect to any of my brothers and sisters in Christ. Many here do not seem to share that position though.

It is saddening the way many jump to judge their brothers and sisters, whether it be Steve Gaines, Jim Whitmire, or Bill Skelton or anyone else.

While all of us are imperfect, the three people above mentioned all love the Lord and seek to do his will in my opinion. I affirm them all as my brothers in Christ.

Lily said...

IMO: Bullying from the pulpit about thithing is not in line with Scripture. Tithing out of a threat from those in control of the money box is not found in Scripture.

On another subject referenced herein, LWF is truly a Baptist entity in that it perceives women to be "less than" and men to be the only important ones. For those of you who know me, feel free to contact me privately and I will share with you the first hand information that I am privy to.

Although I have not posted in quite some time, I still lurk as time permits.

Lily

Been Redeemed said...

Barnabas said:
"It is saddening the way many jump to judge their brothers and sisters, whether it be Steve Gaines, Jim Whitmire, or Bill Skelton or anyone else."

I understand what you are saying. I also understand that Dr Adrian Rogers THOUGHT he knew the heart of Steve Gaines. But only God knows the heart. We can only inspect the fruit.

Junkster said...

Start talking money and everyone joins in! :) Just shows the significance of our financial resources (or lack thereof), and how much of our lives are impacted by money and how important it is to us. Guess that's why Jesus (and the book of Proverbs) has a lot to say about it.

Regarding bi-vocational ministry -- OC, bro, I am all for it. I didn't mean to imply that pastors must be paid by churches for their ministry. I was just saying that there's nothing wrong with a church choosing to give enough to a pastor for them to live on if the church so chooses. I believe that Paul was addressing a misconception that some people had that it was wrong for a person to be paid for ministry. I take him to be saying that it’s a positive thing if a church chooses to do pay someone for their ministry out of generosity and appreciation. I don't think he was saying that it is required in all cases, or that it always has to be a "full-time" salary, or even that it should be considered the most common scenario -- just that it is not wrong for a person to be paid by other believers for ministering/preaching the gospel, but rather it is a good thing and we shouldn’t look down on those who accept financial compensation for their ministry or on those who choose to give to them. (Just as bi-vocational ministers should not be looked down on for not being in a full-time, salaried church position.)

He uses the analogy of an ox that treads the corn. It would be wrong if a farmer said "This corn isn't for that ox, so I'm not willing to let him have any of it; let him go find his own food." God said not to muzzle the ox while he is working in the corn field (thus preventing him from eating), because he is serving you -- so you should take care of him and treat him well and not withhold from him what he needs to keep serving you. Likewise, a church should be sensitive to the financial needs of those who put time into serving the church, time that could otherwise be put into making their own living. Paul is exhorting us to be generous, not demanding that all ministers be paid enough that they don't need any other source of income.

Regarding tithing, I'm with the position and references that Padroc provided. I think it is great when people decide to give 10% (or X% or X$), but I simply believe that it is not a “law” or “requirement” for Gentile believers. Many people I know are quite comfortable with tithing because they make enough money that it isn't going to make a huge difference to their lifestyle, but by tithing they feel they have met their obligation to God so they can do whatever they want with "their" 90%, rather than generously sharing more than the "required" 10% with those in need.

I also think it is disingenuous when preachers, who often control to a great extent how gifts to the church are spent, claim that you are “robbing God” when you don’t give a tithe to the local church, when the Bible is very clear that as Christians our first financial obligation is to our families, and next to the body of Christ, especially needy believers within our churches (widows, orphans, etc.), and we should also generously share of our resources with those who minister / preach to us, and to the needy & poor in our community.

But I can’t think of any examples of required tithing or giving to “the church” as an organization or institution. I think it’s fine if folks want to pool their resources through such an organization to cooperate in financing various ministries/activities, and even for building/buying/maintaining facilities (“church buildings”) in which to conduct those ministries/activities. I look on that the same way I do any voluntary club or organization that you chose to give money to in order to participate in what the organization is doing. Folks are free to do all of that – they just need to be careful not to let the stuff that the Bible doesn’t talk about (ether for or against) overshadow or prevent their giving to the things the Bible clearly commands us to give to (families, widows, orphans, needy, etc.). Unfortunately it seems that more churches and pastors emphasize giving to the perpetuate the institution more than giving to meet the needs of the body.

I hope the way I have said all this makes sense.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"I hope the way I have said all this makes sense."

It makes perfect sense. Thank you!

32yrs@bbc said...

"Regarding tithing, I'm with the position and references that Padroc provided. I think it is great when people decide to give 10% (or X% or X$), but I simply believe that it is not a “law” or “requirement” for Gentile believers. Many people I know are quite comfortable with tithing because they make enough money that it isn't going to make a huge difference to their lifestyle, but by tithing they feel they have met their obligation to God so they can do whatever they want with "their" 90%, rather than generously sharing more than the "required" 10% with those in need."

The Scripture speaks of tithes AND
OFFERINGS. The tithe is just a baseline discipline. Most of us need that discipline. And it is not just for those who make enough to live comfortably. My husband and I tithed when he was out of work and receiving unemployment checks. We did not do it because we were afraid of God's wrath if we didn't. We did it because we loved Him and knew He would take the little we had to give, bless it and multiply it for His Kingdom.
BTW I believe those who tithe are also, for the most part, those who
generously give "offerings" above the tithe. They know that all they have (the other 90%) belongs to the Lord.
=============
"I also understand that Dr Adrian Rogers THOUGHT he knew the heart of Steve Gaines. But only God knows the heart. We can only inspect the fruit."

AMEN!

oc said...

Junk,
I don't have a problem with a church supporting the pastor. I wish all churches could afford to do so. I wish the two churches I pastored could have done so too. But I do have a problem with any church that gives dude a rock star salary and a membership to the country club. There is something big time wrong there. I don't care where you are at.

Been Redeemed said...

32years,
"I also understand that Dr Adrian Rogers THOUGHT he knew the heart of Steve Gaines. But only God knows the heart. We can only inspect the fruit."

"AMEN!"

Regretably, some fruit is rotten on the inside..........

Thy Peace said...

Wade's blog > Abuse of Authority: It Must Not Be Ignored

Having been clear about my preferences that Southern Baptists write what needs to be said and sign one's name to what is written, it is still quite disturbing to me to read the unfolding saga at FBC Jacksonville, Florida. Local Jacksonville law enforcement officers, former Florida circuit court judges, and other members of FBC, all friends of the pastor, seemed to have used secular Florida authorities to unethically and possibly illegally obtain subpoenas to reveal the identity and other private information of the owners of the FBC Jacksonville Watchdog and New BBC Open Forum and Tiffany Croft's blogs.

A local Jacksonville reporter is doing some background for a story that the newspaper will be running about this in the near future. It seems that someone in the Jacksonville Police department suggested to the reporter that the subpoenas were issued because there may be some kind of ongoing federal investigation into these blogs. I was asked yesterday what I thought of such a statement from the local Jacksonville police officer. I responded with two words.

"That's bull."

I've seen this kind of thing happen time and time again. Stupid decisions are made by certain leaders to try to "shut down" the person who is asking questions. Then, those same leaders go behind closed doors and allege the person asking questions is of corrupt character and if people really knew the whole story, then they would never doubt why "leadership" did what they did. In short, when leaders get "caught" using hard ball tactics to shut down dissent, they act as if things are really worse than they are - in order to cover themselves. I can assure you federal officials are more interested in terrorists seeking to destroy the United States than they are church members, annymous or not, who are asking questions that pertain to their pastor.

The sad part about the saga at FBC Jacksonville is that secular authorities have now been sucked into church politics. It seems to me that someone in the Jacksonville police department or court system could, at best, lose their jobs. At worst, there is the making of an enormous lawsuit for public officials abusing their authority to help friends. If you think public officials, particularly court judges and law enforcement officials, are beyond corruption, then you obviously haven't been following the the horrid story of the Pennsylvania judge who used his position for personal gain.

Junkster said...

OC,
Amen!

Junkster said...

NASS,
Were you aware of the subpoena to reveal our identity? Any thoughts on the matter?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Yes, Junk. I've been aware of that for a while. Obviously Mac & Co. haven't read the Memphis newpapers in the past year. Remember the anonymous MPD blog that police chief Larry Godwin endeavored to shut down? He tried the same tack, and it backfired on him.

Commercial Appeal - July 22, 2008

Commercial Appeal - September 4, 2008

You can read the whole sordid story on the MPD Enforcer 2.0 blog. (Some content may be unsuitable for more sensitive readers.)

It starts here and continues in these blog posts.

Enforcer selects attorney

Willie speaks

Wanted!

Godwin addresses media

Blowing smoke

Calling all cars

Breaking news

Legal counsel

Larry is defeated

But this isn't the only precedent. A blogger named Frank Vance was unsuccessfully sued by Ligonier Ministries. You can read a recap of that case here.

If Mac Brunson doesn't want a big lawsuit on his hands and to bankrupt the church defending himself, I'd suggest he come clean now and back off. He's dug himself into a deep hole with this one right along with John Blount and Robbie Hinson. (Are you reading this, Steve Gaines and David Coombs?)

Junkster said...

Thanks for the info, NASS. Obviousy I meant your identity, not "our". But with these guys, who knows whose info they obtained?

I agree that the FBC Jax folks may have created for themselves a real legal problem. If so, I hope the whole matter gets extensive media coverage. The lac of accountability, transparency, and just plain old decency in these abusive churches needs to be exposed if it is ever to be changed.

New BBC Open Forum said...

From the initial JSO report:

"Incident occured inside this location ...124 West Ashley Street..What floor, what room, who was involved, who saw it, date, time, etc. This is very very weak!!!I for one believe these forms would have to be a little more precise than this."

Well, if we didn't know before, we now know that this is... excuse me... a load of crap! I've never set foot inside the state of Florida, much less FBC Jacksonville.

In almost 2 1/2 years of blogging, exactly TWO of the 164 posts on this blog to date have had anything to do with FBC Jacksonville -- one from January 2007 and a recent post recapping the FBC Jax "resolution."

I'm more inclined to think they targeted me because I've posted many of the Watchdog's documents and audio clips on the same server my documents are on. Anyone with half a brain could see the server website and the NBBCOF are likely somehow related. Perhaps they thought the Watchdog and I are the same person. (We're not BTW.) Unfortunately, whoever came up with this boneheaded plan didn't have half a brain.

Lin said...

Learn who tithed and why. Learn who did not tithe and why. Learn what was tithed and what was not tithed and why. Learn how the tithe was used and why. Goodness sakes, study to learn what God was saying and WHY in Malachi. Principles hold for Old and New Testament and do not become outdated or useless. Lessons and customs and traditions may be applicable to a particular situation over a particular time period for a particular purpose. Importing principles from the Old Testament is right. Importing situational lessons, customs or traditions from the Old Testament into today and stating them as a principle is a lie. Please study. It is good for us. It is hard work, but called for. The links I provided in my post from yesterday just might be a bit of an “eye opener.”

Padroc, Seems we have both been studying this. Amazing what we believe without testing, isn't it?

In fact, Jesus Christ raised expectations from OC tithing. We see this illustrated in Acts 4 when Baranabus sells his estate to help care for those in teh Body of Christ.

We now have cheerful giving. Not a measly 10% tht really represented the temple tax. Or was it for the Levite Priest? In any event the OT requirements were more like 36% total.

Jesus raised the bar from the law from the sin of adultery is now the sin of lust, from murder to hate.

From tithing a percentage to selling your estate to help your brothers and sisters in Christ.

As a matter of fact, it could be we are robbing God to give to what is considered a church these days and ignoring the REAL needs around us. the bottom line is that the Holy Spirit should direct our giving.

In any event, the widow did not have 10% but was highly praised becasue she gave MORE mites that she could afford. She gave out of her lack. Not her abundance.

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic:

For Windows PC users, please run the Conficker Removal Tool or at least read about this worm, that is set to activate on April 1st.

Windows Secrets > Run a Conficker removal tool before April 1

New BBC Open Forum said...

Timely Ethics Daily article.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thanks for that information, Thy Peace. I don't see any contact information for Susan Bradley who wrote the article (linked from the article you posted) that tells you how to fix this, but she's got a wrong line in it.

She says to go to the following section of the registry:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\
Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\
Explorer\NoDriveTypeAutorun

There is no "NoDriveTypeAutorun" in that section.

The correct line is:

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\
Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\
Explorer\NoDriveTypeAutorun

You have to type "FF" not "0xFF" as instructed because you can't type an "x" in hex.

The Microsoft page for the patch (which, if people have kept up with Windows updates they should already have installed) give the correct instructions.

WishIhadknown said...

Does this mean SG is going to allow his tax return to be reviewed by the congregation or is accountability a one way street?

BkWormGirl said...

Reading this post was especially difficult for me. If children can not count on their parents to look out for them, to protect them, and to guard them from harm - who do they turn to? I imagine that could be very frightening for a child to hear - that your parent is a thief and should be in jail. How traumatic.

BkWormGirl said...

I don't tithe. At least not in the way that most preachers define tithe. But I do pray about where God wants me to put my money. And follow His guidance. I feel like a lot of what Gaines (and others) are saying about the tithe is similar to the history of the Catholic church back in the 14th and 15th century. It was despicable back then and it still is today.

gopher said...

Republican Sen. Charles Grassley of Iowa to the Rescue?


IRS Probes Nonprofit Pay Practices



".... triggers detailed disclosures of various compensation perks under certain circumstances,
such as when an employee makes more than $150,000. Among the compulsory disclosures:
First-class air travel, expense accounts, housing allowances
and the use of bodyguards, chauffeurs and personal lawyers."

"...urged charities to make certain governance practices public, to assure Americans
they're using their tax-exempt money appropriately. The tax-exempt sector's stability "demands the public trust,"

New BBC Open Forum said...

Churches will likely be exempt from having to publish those records -- just like they are now.

New BBC Open Forum said...

And of course the seminaries are considered to be "churches" as well. (See Klouda vs. SWBTS.)