There's been speculation for well over a year that Steve and/or Donna Gaines will be somehow involved in or the focus of some big "miracle" presumably calculated to draw in the masses. Along with the "name it and claim it" topic of late, we now have a "miracle" of sorts. True, this one doesn't involve either of the Gaineses, but hey, I guess it's close -- considering it's Steve's deacon chairman.
With giving down and staff layoffs
Watch
Quote from Steve: "God is an encouraging God, is he not? And God will do those... ummm... now listen. He... he may not turn electricity on for you. But he might do something else... if you'll just look around, God is encouraging you. Sometimes, though, you're just not receiving it... because you're not looking for it."
What's next? Huckstering anointing oil and prayer cloths at the end of BBC's Sunday morning broadcasts? "Faith nails" and "miracle coins" in the bookstore?
Joel, Oral, and Benny would be proud!
363 comments:
1 – 200 of 363 Newer› Newest»I guess a "miracle" would bring in a crowd...
Isn't God's Word and His Truth enough??
Do we really need discount furniture knocking at the door and fans turned on with no electricity????
Ask Steve why God won't pay for my electricity.
I sure would like to know why his furniture is more important than my electricity.
I'm listening real hard.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Pray, oc. Just name it and claim it. Maybe God will turn it on for you!
Well shoot NASS, I want me one of them thar ten chair table type thangs with a hutch attached. Don't really know what that is, but I reckon it could happen if'in I was holy. Right?
Just askin'. Not countin' on it hattnin though.
Not sure I even need that ol' 'tricity stuff.
Plumbin' either.
Just sayin'.
oc.
... or teeth or shoes for that matter!
Is it Eric Bran (Deacon Chairmain)? I hope I got his name correct.
He seemed believable. In India, what he said is true. As far as the quality of electricity is concerned, how hot it gets.
Did a miracle take place? It's possible. It could also be highly coincidental. The power for the fan system could be coming a from a different phase of the power lines. In India, weird stuff like this happens. But I would not discount a miracle. It's also possible, somebody rigged this whole thing to give a story for Eric to take back to USA.
Does God do miracles? Yes, He does. Did He do the miracle here? It's possible.
Eric Brand.
I have only one question. Was the fan plugged in?
Well boy howdy. I reckon I see the truck a pullin' up. And Skeeter and Bubba is mannin'the show. Glory, glory, glory. Yeah Skeeter, back it up rat cheer.
Sure I am, I'm lookin' fur a discount...No, I don't ker where it be comin' from...longest I git my blessin'...
"I have only one question. Was the fan plugged in?"
That would definitely answer the question.
My gut feeling is, it was plugged in. This is mainly due to the quality of electricity service in India. It's so spotty and erratic. It comes and goes. So whoever lives there, they hope for the best. So I am assuming, it was plugged in.
I am also assuming the fan was left in the ON position.
Reminder: Eric Brand is the one who climbed up in God's lap and tugged on His beard. Wasn't he also on the search committee? I think he was one of those that lined up across the front that week and told us they were all 100% unanimous about the Steve for pastor decision. Turned out that wasn't 100% true.......someone please correct me if I'm wrong about him being on the search committee. As for fans being turned on, turned off, plugged in or not, India is full of demonic forces because of all the paganism. Maybe it wasn't a miracle of God but some other type of "miracle." If you read some of these books on the charismatic movement, you learn a lot about "miracles." Just sayin'
From what I know of BBC, you all have been through so much. From Adrian Rogers to Steve Gaines. Wow!
I listened to Steve Gaines. His preaching style leaves much to be desired. He reminds me more of a salesperson, than as a preacher. But I believe ALL the churches are heading that way now. All about marketing, buzz words, church ambience, glitz. Very little to do with the Word of God.
From what I gather, there have been recently sex scandals at BBC (protecting minsters) and nepotism issues.
I am surprised to find out recently that BBC budget is much larger than fbcjax. BBC is at 22 to 24M$, whereas fbcjax is at 15M$. Is your church that much bigger? Where does all this money go? Do they share this info with the members?
Just curious. I am not a member of fbcjax. But I started listening to them a year ago, but lately I have almost stopped listening to them.
One good thing about BBC and Adrian Rogers era, is Jim Whitmire. He is Good. I like him a lot. I was saddened to hear how Steve Gaines treated Jim Whitmire, while he was leaving. I know he apologized, but it's not the same thing.
Interesting “piece” NASS. I just stopped by to see if Karen had posted any updates on her mother’s health, but this was well worth the trouble.
Just out of curiosity, did you bother to call the Furniture Man to see if they had made any deliveries to Memphis lately? Or did you just automatically assume the worst and believe that Dr. Gaines purchased stolen/inferior furniture? (Yes, it’s a rhetorical question.)
In case you didn’t know, most of the wood furniture that’s sold in the southeast is made in High Point NC, and most of the “stores” in NC that sell the furniture are just individuals with websites and delivery trucks who buy from the manufacturers. When they deliver their orders, they usually take extra furniture along to sell to anyone who’ll buy it. It’s not at all unusual for them to ask their customers if they know anyone in the neighborhood who might want to buy some ‘discount’ furniture, and it’s not out of the question to think that one of Steve’s neighbors suggested him as a customer. Whether or not it’s appropriate to attribute their bargain prices to God’s divine providence is subject to discussion, but do we really have the right to disparage someone who is eager to thank God for a bargain?
Serious question. Suppose that SG’s dining room really was an answer to prayer. Suppose that the people who go forward during Bellevue’s invitation time are sincerely seeking to give their lives to Christ, instead of selling their souls to Satan and are subject to eternal damnation as BTK seems to believe. If these are truly acts of God, what do you suppose he thinks when someone attributes that work to Satan? Many theologians call that the unforgivable sin, and I’d be careful before toying with that.
What do you think about the time Dr. Rogers said he lost his wallet, but prayed that God would lead him to it and he found it? Satanic, or an answered prayer? Think carefully before you answer. I don't see much difference between AR attributing finding a lost possession and SG getting a deal on his dining room. Both were prayed for, and both were out of the ordinary.
And please ignore OC’s inevitable sneering, belittling dismissal of my post which he immediately starts writing when he sees the “Solomon said” header (whichever blog I post on). Seriously consider that question. Is it possible that God is still working at Bellevue, or are all 7500 of us serving the devil?
And Karen, I’d really like to hear how your mother is doing. This ridiculous nonsense is worthless compared to that. In view of the recent posts, I’m not sure any more if I’d be considered to be praying for her recovery to God or to Satan, but I sincerely believe that it’s to God, and I hope you’re and yours are doing well by his grace.
KS
thy peace said...
I listened to Steve Gaines. His preaching style leaves much to be desired. He reminds me more of a salesperson, than as a preacher. But I believe ALL the churches are heading that way now. All about marketing, buzz words, church ambience, glitz. Very little to do with the Word of God.
Really? What was he selling? Miracles? Favors? Healings? Be specific, please.
Why don't you listen to him before ranting about some imaginary offense? His problem isnt' that he doesn't preach God's word, it's that he preaches beyond it.
Is NASS "New BBC Open Forum" ? I am new here. I am just finding my way here. Thanks.
Does SG preach extra-biblical?
You'll find that most preachers preach messages that many congregants believe to be extra-biblical. Others don't.
The question is how do we respond when the preacher proclaims something that we don't think is in God's word. Do we confront him with it, or do we condemn him and everyone who listened to him?
Here, the answer is obvious. In real life, it's a little more complicated.
A problem I have with many pastors I have heard lately is the surface messages they teach. I miss the deeper searching and digging from pastors past.
In my humble opinion, SG's sermons very often take scripture out of context, or apply meanings that seem a stretch.
It's complicated when the pastor is unapproachable. All believers are priests, according to scripture. All are called to different duties, but none are above others.
Pastors are not kings. We only have ONE King.
Hey Sol,
You talking to me or to NASS? Seems your rhetoric was directed at NASS and Satan never entered the discussion on NASS' end of things (at least I don't recall that happening). If you are talking to me, you have once again taken me out of context but you are good at that, aren't you? I have NEVER said people going down the aisle to be saved at BBC are going into Satan's service. That is absolutely ridiculous. Of course there are Christians at BBC. I don't recall anyone ever saying there weren't. Some of us wonder how Christians can sit there and listen to all that ranting and raving but stranger things have happened. Some of us wonder how Christians can sit under a preacher who mistreated former staff members and then kept on a staff member who confessed his deep dark secrets to Steve - secrets the staff member should now be in prison for. All I said in that last post is that PERHAPS due to the demonic nature of things in India, that the fan going on might not be due to anything God was doing. Hey, maybe God did turn it on. I absolutely could care less either way. I was just putting forth a different opinion. I fully believe Steve believes he is serving God and I fully believe God can and does work through ANYBODY He chooses. The Bible is full of examples.
As to the furniture, you are correct about the trucks coming from High Point. I think one point NASS made was that Steve is not on TV in High Point so how can the delivery guys from High Point watch Steve on TV? Maybe they are here all weekend and watch him then? We'd have to ask them if we could ever find them. I think NASS also linked to articles about people being taken in by these types of delivery trucks - they think they are legit but it turns out the goods are stolen. Maybe you need to do some more research before jumping on people........
Why don't you listen to him before ranting about some imaginary offense? His problem isnt' that he doesn't preach God's word, it's that he preaches beyond it.
Hey Sol,
I did listen to Steve for months. They aren't imaginary offenses. He definitely preaches beyond God's Word. So far beyond it is like it is coming from a translation that has never been written...Just sayin'.
Yes, New BBC Open Forum is also known as NASS. Welcome to the fold. Be sure you don't mention Satan or Sol will jump on you too.....
I will remember about Satan. I did meet NASS then on fbcjax Watchdog blog. I am glad.
"And please ignore OC’s inevitable sneering, belittling dismissal of my post which he immediately starts writing when he sees the “Solomon said” header (whichever blog I post on)."
Love you Keith. Whatever you think.
oc.
Hey OC,
I think he's placed us in the same category but we are used to it aren't we?????
btk
Good Evening to you kind but troubled folks,
I think that a wise and humble man would not carelessly attribute the fan coming on and going off as an unexplainable act apart from God.
The timing of the coming on and going off gives the appearance of the intervention of God. This is not unusual. God intervenes in the affairs of men and their circumstances with a very busy schedule.
There are reasonable and explainable reasons for the fan coming on and off apart from the direct sovereign intervention of God. Yet the timing gives the appearance.... not of a miracle, but of the ordinary yet often expressed will of God for His glory. I would call this a "novelty" of God not a miracle.
And “we”, (of course not you and certainly not me) in our self centered way.... just have to go around telling everybody as if it had something to do with US. I think this is like robbing the glory from God.
Eric's telling was given like a report. What Steve Gaines did with the report and how he used it to teach untruths is what I found so poisonous.
I’ll let some of you theologians dissect the untruths with the scriptures.
My jolly regards to you all in troubled BBC land. It’s been a while and will most likely be a while longer before I post again. I’m sorry I’m not much for dialoging and scrapping back and forth on the sickening issues but it’s the best I can do for now.
Dr. Bunsen
BTK,
Yes, we should be used to it. And I'm proud to be placed there with you.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Speaking of God's goodness (*smiles*)I want my dear blog family to know that I hold in my hand a contract for my new job. Thank you, Junk, for the great work on my resume, and thank you all for your prayers. :)
Concernedsbcer,
Congratulations!!!!
Isn't God great?????????
"Why don't you listen to him before ranting about some imaginary offense? His problem isnt' that he doesn't preach God's word, it's that he preaches beyond it."
Can I have an 'amen'"?!
"Suppose that the people who go forward during Bellevue’s invitation time are sincerely seeking to give their lives to Christ, instead of selling their souls to Satan and are subject to eternal damnation as BTK seems to believe."
"Sol" is always such a ray of sunshine!
Congratulations, "concernedsbcer"!
Amen.
Congratulations to Concernedsbcer.
You all sound so nice and pleasant. Fbc Jax Watchdog blog is little difficult, due to the nature of it. I also get good feelings from Christa Brown's blog. I am slowly getting used to Pastor Wade Burleson's blog. I am slowly being accepted there :-)
About those layoffs...
There are some who persist in attempting to derive their worth from appearing to be a victim even after the percieved insult has been proven as nothing but nonsense. These people have a real need for attention. That need may come from a childhood lack of parental love, or a present time lack of identity. It may present as confidence, but is only a masking of great insecurity.
Or it could be a good old "chip on the shoulder" complex. If so, maybe we should let the chip just fall where it may.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Thanks for the info on the layoff's, NASS.
It's very funny, how I found out about New BBC Open Forum.
About 4 months ago, I came across FBC JAX Watchdog's blog, after Pastor Mac Brunson was complaining about bloggers for the 4th or 5th time. I did a google search, after the 4th attempt, landed at FBC JAX Watchdog blog.
Then, I found out Watchdog was using a shared web space, to save or link his audio and documents. This is a full confessional. At that time, I was not sympathetic to Watchdog. I was on the side of Pastor Mac. So I went about, methodically studying the contents of that shared web space, where you all put your documents, audio files ... and I found lot of the documents there belonged to BBC. I did not even have a clue what BBC was. I looked and searched, found out about Adrian Rogers, Jim Whitmire, Steve Gaines ... Very educational. I even copied all the contents of that space to my hard disk for later perusal. Which I did. But I did delete all that from my disk.
After a month later, I was leaning to supporting Watchdog. This whole turn of events are bizarre. But they are good for me in the end. For my eyes have opened to what's actually going on with Southern Baptists.
God bless you all.
Thy Peace said...
"He seemed believable. In India, what he said is true. As far as the quality of electricity is concerned, how hot it gets."
Listen carefully to Eric tell this story:
-It was a 3 1/2 hour service
-in a small building that seated 100 people
-but that day there was 300+ people inside
-there were another 200+ outside peeping in the doors and windows
-it was hot 110 degrees, no air and Eric was sweating
-there was no electricity, or intermittent at best
-2 hours into the service Eric prays
-1/2 hour later Eric preaches and fan turns on
-1 hour later Eric stops preaching and the fan turns off
- there were other members with him, what do they say about this incident?
-you would think someone would have heat stroke in these conditions.
no mention of the lost being saved,
treating the sick or feeding the hungry
but the Fan Played on for Eric Brand.
Remember this Mission Trip
FYI: It was a public shared folder or web space. I did not hack into it. :-)
Gopher: I agree with you. The real miracle that took place in India, was the hearing of the Word of God. What happened to the fan, if any, is nothing.
The miracles that God does happen in the hearts of each of us, as we listen to the Word of God. The Holy Spirit transforms us, as we listen to the Word of God. And this miracle happens in our hearts.
I have wanted a big screen (at least 40 inches) tv for some time now hoping and praying that it would be possible.
An amazing thing happened today while in the parking lot at a local shopping center. A couple of guys came up to me in a van and had 5 tv's just like I was looking for available at a price that was 1/4 the normal price.
I couldn't believe my ears when I realized what was being given to me from out of nowhere. Who would have thought they were just extra tv's not able to be delivered.
The price was too good to pass up so I took my gas money for one fill up and brought my new tv home.
I must really be living right these days.
My thanks to Steve for opening my eyes.
"thy peace" wrote:
"I am surprised to find out recently that BBC budget is much larger than fbcjax. BBC is at 22 to 24M$, whereas fbcjax is at 15M$. Is your church that much bigger? Where does all this money go? Do they share this info with the members?"
Here is last year's proposed budget. The budget is shared in rather vague outline form, and apparently there's a certain amount of "wiggle room."
Here are some questions asked about last year's proposed budget and the administration's (David Coombs') answers.
Here are some questions and answers regarding the 2008-09 budget.
Here is last year's "compensation report." This is the closest thing you'll ever see regarding staff salaries. As you can see, it only includes totals by department.
Interestingly, as of March 16, 2008, Coombs still gave the total membership as 28,846. I really find that hard to believe. I don't think Bellevue ever had that many members who could be accounted for. The rolls haven't been purged in at least 10 or 11 years, and they've admitted they can't locate about a third of the people on the church rolls. If there are indeed that many members, just judging by the attendance now, only about 15-20% of them ever darken the doors.
Thanks Nass for the budget details. I will look at them tomorrow.
About the number of church members. I know fbcjax has claimed that they had 30,000 members. I believe about 8,000 attend church regularly. So I can believe about the BBC church numbers.
From what I gather, there is a big "stink" about the total number of Southern Baptists. I believe the numbers are not correct. That is they have not culled the members that have left.
I also do not know, how they count one as a member. Do they count children or dependents as members?
I will look at all the info you gave me, tomorrow. For some reason, fbcjax does not share this info. Otherwise, Watchdog would have put it on his blog.
diningroomtableforsale said...
"The price was too good to pass up so I took my gas money for one fill up and brought my new tv home."
Here's where you might go wrong
Listen to Mearl Purvis say
A Fireman Buy Hot Goods
Can you image this title
"A Preacher Buys Hot Goods"
solomon said...
"Just out of curiosity, did you bother to call the Furniture Man to see if they had made any deliveries to Memphis lately?"
Your link was to a "NC Furniture Man" web site not "the furniture man" Steve indicated.
Anyone can call themselves "the furniture man"
Steve never indicated the name on the truck or the state of the license plate on the truck.
New BBC Open Forum said...
"About those..." layoffs
David Coombs sugar coating is:
"The staff does not take lightly the importance, hard work, and loyalty of our church employees. While it is regrettable that some must leave, the leadership staff has committed itself to do all that is possible to make these personnel transitions as painless as possible. Our Pastor has asked that we not only pray for those affected, but to reach out to them and minister to them in every way we can."
"Events like the Family Fun Festival that have been planned for months with contracts and deposits sent months ago will proceed as planned.
All programs will be sensitive to balance people with ministry."
In reality:
The people who are to be laid off were told Thursday, and Friday was their last day.
It's just Good Bye
This was noted in the new BBC Employee handbook that David Coombs made up just about two months ago:
...Employees don't have to give a 2 week notice ....and Bellevue does not have to give a 2 week notice.... either
Every employee who didn't want to be let go at that point had to sign a form agreeing to the terms in the manual.
Who will be next? Is it me? Is it you?
So much for our Pastor reaching out for them.
Remember Steve's Answer
Steve Loves Passion
Steve and his extended family are allowed to stay even after causing members to leave Sunday after Sunday
These employees are the sacrifice for the deeds of the leadership which goes undisciplined.
Thy peace,
I think children are counted as members once they have professed faith in Christ and are baptized.
The SBC talks about baptisms being down and how the postmodern society has led to all these problems but the way I see it things are worse than they even think or will say. We KNOW the rolls are bloated. What if each church actually took time to find the members and see if they even want to continue on the church rolls? Once they purged all these people, I believe the SBC would be a lot smaller convention than anyone would believe.
I'd still like to know where the thousands of people who left BBC are. I can't seem to account for them all at the churches where they are scattered around. I think most are staying home. We will never know the total sum of pain that has been inflicted by the so called "anointed" pastors to the sheep they have run off.
MAN!
I got to bed early for the first time in ages and yall all stay up late without me!!
There are SO many things I'd like to comment on I don't know where to start!
"Those Americans are so stupid! You can make them fall for anything. Watch me make him think the fan is running without electricity."
We serve a great God for a great purpose. A God who can divide the oceans; a God who can feed a multitude with only a few morsels of food. You're witnessing to a starving people and all you want is for a fan to come on so that you can be a little less uncomfotable.
Has everyone left at Bellevue lost all discernment or does theur god have to perform cheap tricks to somehow prove himself.
These people had intimate fellowship with Dr Rogers and this is all we get.
Heaven help us!
Regarding the furniture. One of the job duties of any pastor is to set a good example for the congregation. Even though the furniture probably was not stolen, the seller is circumventing the law. Was the seller registered in Tennessee? Did the seller have a proper business license? Collect sales tax? Pay personal property taxes or gross reciepts tax? If Gaines did not pay sales tax did he pay the use tax?
The whole thing reminds me of an "Everyone Hate Chris" episode where Chris is trying to sell donuts but can't until he tells the people "they fell off the back of the truck this morning."
God provides but satan tempts. Our hardest battles and biggest temptations are with the carnal not the satanic.
I cannot testify as to whether the furniture and the fan are of God, I'll leave that to eternity. I can only testify to what I know. On September 24, 2006, my last service at Bellevue, I saw a preacher not a pastor. I saw a man only interested in justifing his own bad behaviour. I saw a man trying to villianize fellow believers who only requested an accounting. I saw a man only interested in himself and did not care who he hurt or how much. The man was only interested in dividing not reconciling. Instead of calling for repentance the man only saught to justify himself. Instead of calling people to Jesus he called people to loyalty to him.
I do not judge, that is for God and eternity, but we are all called to discern.
My discernment is that I was gravely misled and mistaken when I voted him to be pastor. A mistake this man has proved repeatedly over the last two years.
You do not truly believe Gaines didn't know what to do about Paul Williams do you? Paul Williams is a long time friend and I would have only needed 10 seconds to have handled the problem.
OK...decided to only comment on a few things posted.
Sol:
....Many theologians call that the unforgivable sin, and I’d be careful before toying with that.
response:
I believe you are mistaken. Maybe there ARE theologians who call what you referred to as the unpardonable sin.... but I don't believe that is what the Bible teaches about the unpardonable sin.
Ez or alltojesus can help me with scripture reference but my understanding is that the unpardonable sin is to refuse to believe ...to harden our hearts against Christ.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Also Sol,
Karen sent emails out about her mom. In the past, you were included.
I'm not inferring that you were or were not included this last time. It just appears that the last times you posted you submitted some kind of excuse for reading.
I don't know if or when you posted something that wasn't a response to what you had read from the blog.
We have said many times that you are certainly free to have your opinion. However, why do you insist on trying to change or degrade our opinion??
I really believe there is room for our differences without the anger.
Thy Peace:
I listened to Steve Gaines. His preaching style leaves much to be desired
Sol:
Why don't you listen to him before ranting about some imaginary offense.
response:
Please read....They peace said she/he DID listen....isn't it possible for others to hear SG or another preacher and come to a different conclusion than you????
WIHK:
These people had intimate fellowship with Dr Rogers and this is all we get.
response:
Maybe that is part of the problem.
Not Bro R being the problem...but that we put too much importance on any man and what he taught rather than an intimate relationship with the Word.
CSBCer,
Go girl!!!!! Yippie!!!! PTL!!!!
WIHK:
You do not truly believe Gaines didn't know what to do about Paul Williams do you?
Paul Williams is a long time friend and I would have only needed 10 seconds to have handled the problem.
11:09 AM, October 11, 2008
WORTH REPEATING.
Maybe that is part of the problem.
Not Bro R being the problem...but that we put too much importance on any man and what he taught rather than an intimate relationship with the Word.
Response:
With Dr Rogers it was always Jesus first amd only Jesus. Don't look to me (Dr Rogers) go to the word. Use the word to discern truth. I did not have intimate fellowship with Dr Rogers but I would assume that those who did would have heard the same messages. Dr Rogers had many flaws but I never knew him to promote himself, only Jesus.
There are many more Godly men out there. Men who truly seek to lead the lost to Jesus and not brag about a bargain they purchased off the back of a truck!
I find this interesting:
WIHK:
These people had intimate fellowship with Dr Rogers ...
My observation, at least in the last few years of Dr. Rogers' ministry, was that very few in BBC's membership actually had "intimate fellowship" with Dr. Rogers. He was heavily protected and shielded from interaction - real interaction - with membership and visitors by security. Part of this, I'm sure, was because of his celebrity status in the SBC, and part because of his health - so it was for his own protection, because physically it would have been impossible to interact personally with 10,000+ people each week who would have wanted to hug him, shake his hand, pray with him, etc.
Some former and current members who post here speak of their relationship with Dr. Rogers, but many more admit that they "never met the man."
Just throwing out this thought - and I'm not trying to be contentious, just exploring. How long has it been - for any of us - since we had an approachable pastor. One where you could just drop by the church office in the middle of the week and ask the church secretary, "Is he in?" - and then just be buzzed on back. Or just catch him in the hall after service and "catch up" on each other's lives? When was the last time any of us had a pastor who felt he could come to us to help him carry part of his ministry burden in prayer? When was the last time any of us had a pastor who remembered our name when we greeted him after the service?
This, I believe, is one of the issues one must grapple with in a mega-church, or even in one that isn't mega, but moderate-sized. If personal pastoral ministry is what we or our family need, then megas have to provide that through other staff, and through more horizontal relationships such as teachers, ministry leaders, etc.
But I think it's off the mark just a tad to say that BBC members had "intimate fellowship" with Dr. Rogers. Maybe some did, but that was not the rule. For those of you who did, what a blessing it must have been.
MJM
WIHK,
Please know I was making a point I thought should be made. Not trying to put new meaning into your post.
I see alot of things with new eyes from how I did 2 years ago but that doesn't diminish my apreciation or love for Bro R. and how my children and I grew from his teaching and example.
My son won't tell me he loves me (he's too cool right now) but he has no problem telling anyone else how much Bro R meant to him...even Mrs R out in a public place :)
MJM,
Do we NEED to be able to drop by our pastor's office???
I don't know the answer...just asking the question.
For whatever it's worth, there was a time when Bro R was very approachable.
I wonder at what time BBC became too big and stopped operating like a church and too much like a business.
Does it make someone more approachable because they behave with less dignity?
What makes a minister approachable????
Aren't there many churches available with different type preachers and environments??
Just asking questions. I have so many I ask myself.
gmom,
When I was a young adult and had a lot of things on my mind, or was going through various rites of passage into Christian adulthood, yes, it meant a lot to me personally to be able to go lean on the door jamb to the pastor's study in my home church and just shoot the breeze with him. Or drop by his house and chat for a minute. Or have him look in my eyes, call my by name, and tell me he was praying for me - and I knew he was. I needed that personal ministry at that time in my life. There have been times in our married life, as well, such as when our teenaged daughter ran away from home and we didn't know where she was for 17 days, that it meant the world to me to have a personal pastor who held us while we cried and screamed out to the Lord in our grief. Years later, since coming to Bellevue, when I went through another painful time with an adult child, I hesitate to use this word, but I felt ... lost ... knowing that none of the ministers knew me, really knew me and my family, or had any kind of sense of our history and the impact of this heartbreak on our lives. I know Dr. Rogers would have cared had he known, but he just didn't know me and there was no real expectation that he would. That particular Sunday, Dr. Wayne Allen was down front after the morning service, and he reached out and ministered to me. Yes, gmommy, sometimes I think we need that personal touch from a pastor, or an older Christian, or someone who cares. For some, that need can be supplied by a member of our SS class, or someone who sits by us in the choir, etc. But sometimes a hurting sheep just needs to be held and loved on by the shepherd.
Why was a fan even at the place in the first place if is was not subject to being able to function?
MJM,
Thank you for sharing your feelings. I have to say I understand and agree.
I appreciate that you included that sometimes that Christian support we need can come from someone other than a pastor.
I think I have questioned my needs and wants so many times....and found myself alone so many times (especially since becoming divorced)it's probably harder for me to verbalize what you have shared.
Probably why what happened at BBC (for me personally) was so painful.
I remember going to Buck Jones' funeral in the chapel....(don't remember what stage the BBC situation was in at that time)....
The chapel was crammed to the max.
I was so so sad for the wife and family of this man. But I was also comforted by something really odd for me.
I'm normally someone who needs plenty of physical space.
But the chapel was packed. Every row was shoulder to shoulder with people.
To my right and my left were people I had been around since my children were growing up....I honestly couldn't remember the names of either people at the time.
But I felt such a sense of comfort or something nice.... that I was next to these people who asked me specific questions about my children, and remembered sweet things with me about our pasts together...that was part of our history at BBC.
No one cared that day about "sides".
That's what came to my mind when I read your post. :)
I always found Dr Rogers, and other ministers, very approachable. Many times my family and I would see his family out and he always was approachable and had kind words to say. Indeed, Dr Rogers always treated the person he was talking to as the most important person in the world. Other times Dr Rogers went out of his way to shake my hand and say something nice or tell a joke. Again this was not unique to Dr Rogers. Now Bellevue has a preacher that has to be a member of a country club so that he does not have to be in contact with the little people. A preacher who doesn't think I am even worth a hand shake even when I offered one.MJM, I cannot imagine your pain or the pain of your family as you went through those dark times. May God bless you and your family. Hope all is well with you now.
I just got to tell ya. Sometimes I get a little uncomfortable around here. We are supposed to be Baptists, yet sometimes we seem a little bit Catholic. This semi-worship of pastor(s) scares me a bit at times. Pastors are no closer to God than we are. And I know that by personal experience.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Hey OC,
One tiny little correction...
I'm no longer a Baptist.
just sayin :)
But you ain't Catholic, right? :)
Layoffs
But
Bellevue Still Spending Money
totaling nearly $400,000 plus the following Staff postion
Bellevue Still Hiring
Bellevue Prepaid Events
Someone has said $500,000 ????
Spending $500,000+ for the College Ministry on Poplar - BUE - Still not open
Plus a Staff Position
Spending $500,000 on the church on Highland plus on going upgrades
Bellevue a family of friends. And a friend to the family
OC,
I ain't :)
I think I'll always be a Baptist. Just seriously considering dropping the "Southern" part.
Boy howdy.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Now OC - I don't think anyone was worshiping a pastor. Just because we sometimes long to have some type of relationship to one doesn't mean we worship them. I understood what WishIhadknown meant about an intimate relationship. We knew what Dr. Rogers thought about important issues. He was very forthcoming from the pulpit about his beliefs and his views. He was conservative all around. We may not have all agreed with him on every single issue and I do believe there was a segment that had a hero worship thing going on but we did know him. He just didn't know every one of us!!!
Then again maybe one reason these pastors keep getting away with vile sexual things and just move to another church is because some segment of the church refuses to turn them in. I've told this story many times but we had a youth minister when I was growing up who was bothering some of the teen girls. He was "run out of town" because otherwise he was going to jail and that embarrassed people who were in charge at the church. So rather than them be embarrassed, he got away with it.
BTK,
Yes, my friend. Understood.
It was not just this thread only which compelled me to make such a statement. I've seen it in many threads, and it has always prodded my spirit. But I shall pray more about my stance and so shall further trust the One who pokes and jabs my conscience.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Gopher,
Thanks for the heads up on the stolen tv's.
You convicted me so I'm taking my new tv purchase down to Bellevue and donating it to the Minister's breakroom on the second floor.
Also, does anyone know any of the local MEMPHIS furniture stores? I can't imagine what these hard working owners who risk everything to keep their stores open hearing that Steve Gaines, the father of "Bellevue Loves Memphis" is going behind their backs and making an illegal furniture purchase.
Someone else made a great point about the sales tax not being paid. Does anyone know what the penalty is for such a large purchase being made without sales taxes going to the state?
On a $5,000 purchase, it would be about $500. Just think of the total taxes avoided if you total up the whole truck?
If you loved Memphis like you talk, you wouldn't circumvent the local taxes.
Well, jeepers Diningroomtable...,
I reckon now that it's ok to steal, as long as you blame the Lord.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Gmommy,
You asked some really great questions at the beginning of this thread.
Your questions call all of us back to Mathew 5-7. The Sermon on the Mount.
I don't think that's any accident.
So thanks for blessing me.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Oh no! I just realized what just happened to me. A chick instructed a dude. That certainly won't fly in the SBC.
Checking my mail for my excommunication papers...
Just sayin'.
oc.
Pray for my Mom. She just got a report about a mass in her left breast. She's very upset.
I'm kinda too.
oc.
diningroomtableforsale said...
"On a $5,000 purchase, it would be about $500. Just think of the total taxes avoided if you total up the whole truck?"
And Steve probably doesn't have a ticket (remember his statement "cash on the Barrel") so taxes would be on the retail value, say $13,000
With the county in such a cash bind are they willing to over look this kind of activity??
Blaming the economy for layoffs at BBC is disingenuous. Receipts are down because attendance is down. And in a bad economy, an organization that cares about its workers would cut every cost possible, freeze hiring, suspend travel, etc, to avoid layoffs. (That's what the secular company I work for has done.) The last thing a Christian organization should want to do is cut off someone's source of income, especially during a bad economy.
Laying people off while spending large sums of money for "ministry projects" yet maintaining cash reserves cannot be justified by claiming that the events were planned for a long time and deposits were made. That sounds a lot like folks saying that they can't help their needy parents because whatever they might have used has been dedicated to God. Seems like I read Someone, Somewhere, saying that's not good.
Great points Junk.
OC,
Sorry to hear about your mom.
Never mind about what I said earlier. If you were prompted, then who am I to disagree? I guess I did not agree that was what WIHK was saying.
MJM: I think you make a wonderful point in your 11:52 am post.
I believe one answer to the denominational mess we find ourselves in has to do with the size of churches. The "megas" have sacrificed accountability for programs and "bells and whistles."
IMHO, if you can't walk into the office and say "is he in?" then your church is too big.
OC: This is not pastor worship. This is a relationship with the pastor, the leader of our church. All believers are on the same "level" it's just that some have different talents. (I know you understand this)
We're sorry that those who were just laid off will be unable to comment here due to a threat of a lawsuit (signing a none disclosure statement) so we can only bring you the Gaines side of the story as presented
here
And how will the spin doctors presented this to the congregation on Sunday????
And don't believe
"...its the economy, stupid.."
Whether or not the fan turning on is a miracle or not, I really don't know. I honestly don't feel any of us can know with 100% certainty. But what just tires me is the focus on how "he prayed" down this miracle. I know that isn't his words, but it is all about him.
Why can't the things we do just be about God. Why is it always about us. I really am to the point where I don't want to go to any church any more. I know, I know, not the solution - but I am so tired of it all.
Reading the latest on the lay-offs really just makes my head float away. Such behavior is mind numbing. Bellevue loves Memphis, just hates its employees. Bellevue loves Memphis so much that they are willing and eager to show their disdain for them. Do they seriously believe the people of Memphis are so stupid that they can be "bought" with carnivals, T-shirts, and give aways. Well, yeah, now that I say it out loud, maybe Memphis can be bought. Never mind... it is all making sense. I am sure this is just a business decision. I am sure it will pay off soon.
No need to count God into the mix. Because BBC has proven they don't need Him. God has a purpose, to excuse and condone all of their behavior. He servers no other purpose as far as I can see.
I wonder how long God will let that kind of theology continue. I fear, it will be a long time.
Alright my friends. Looked it over again. I am wrong. My comment concerning pastor worship was unfounded. My perception is colored by past experience, and I had no warrant bringing all that to this discussion.
I was wrong. Will "I'm sorry" work?
(I'm getting real good at being wrong.)
Love y'all!
oc.
This is from your compensation report:
Pastoral Ministries
Office of Pastor, Pastoral Care, Hostess, and Biblical Guidance
$2,257,461
What would you estimate as Steve Gaines salary or compensation of this?
Thanks for your answers.
We are trying to compare what Pastor Mac makes Vs. Pastor Steve.
I like David Coombs statement that "Bellevue Loves Memphis" is going so well, we have to lay off staff.
The only thing going well is for the top dogs who will continue to get paid enormous amounts of money each week.
My question to anyone out there at Bellevue or any other church is this. At what point in the "Church" did it become ok for pastors to get paid enormous amounts of money (packages worth $500,000) plus book renenue, Holy Land trip revenue, and who knows what else.
Does this mirror the New Testament men who preached the Word of God? Where these men wrapped up in so much material wealth? It scares me to think about the impact our churches have had in the decline of our nation.
The spin at Bellevue and in the SBC is so great, we should all be sick.
It's so easy to justify things these days.
Junk, You are right in what you wrote about layoffs. Very strange that a church is less concerned about it's own than the secular world which does all it can before layoffs.
What is worse is that churches do not even have to pay unemployement insurance so most laid off employees do not even have that to fall back on for a while. Churches are exempt from labor protection laws.
Churches are proving to the world that they SHOULD be under those same labor laws by their treatment of employees. In some respects the church is worse than the world. Isn't that a sad state and a horrible witness.
So, they are laying off employees but hired Gaines' son, Grant?
This is very typical of mega's which become jobs programs for the pastors family and close friends.
Are they disclosing Grant's beginning salary?
I feel where you are at, Bookwormgirl. I'm at the same intersection, looking right and left and wondering which way I should turn.
Love you my sister.
Honk if you you love Jesus. :)
oc.
I'm home this morning, listening to Sandy Willson of 2nd Pres. I wish I could repeat the exact quote, but he just said (close paraphrase), "We are not going to use gimmicks to get people into our church. It cheapens the gospel." Exactly! If you have to use gimmicks (carnivals, fireworks shows, etc.) to get them to come, you're going to have to use more gimmicks to get them to come back.
"Whether or not the fan turning on is a miracle or not, I really don't know. I honestly don't feel any of us can know with 100% certainty."
A lot of people followed Jesus because they wanted miracles.
But they turned away when His teaching became hard.
John 6
53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
Note: This came AFTER He fed the 5,000.
A real, true miracle is a lost person reared in a pagan land coming to the saving knowledge of Jesus. That is the miracle I want to hear about. You travel half way around the world and all you are impressed by is a working fan. How much good is a fan in 110 degree heat anyway?
I made my decision about who I would be voting for after watching the debate that Rick Warren hosted.
For a while I was dealing OK with the fact that my daughter had decided to vote for Obama. I guess for a while I wanted to think that one wasn't that much better than the other.
I respected that my grown child knew why she was voting for Obama and that she would be bold in her thinking. I was glad that the 2 of us could agree to disagree...
I was just as turned off by the usual stuff from the "Christian camps" that were being mass emailed and were full of scare tactics.(the anti Christ and all the extreme stuff)
I wanted to think thru my decision without those things I normally fell in line with before...
Now I've hit a big bump and I am really struggling. Ignorance CAN be bliss.
I believe that I have seen legitimate confirmation that Obama...for whatever reason....has felt strongly enough to consistently vote NOT to give medical care to aborted babies who happen to be born alive.
I tried to process this with as little emotion as possible.
Bush was pro life yet could do nothing to stop abortions.
But this issue Obama supports so strongly isn't about reversing Woe vs Wade.
This is about a man who does not believe when a child is born alive that the child should be given medical care.
I read his statements and arguments when this was discussed on the Senate floor.
Is it possible that a man whose conviction is not to give aid and comfort to a child who has managed to live thru the brutal process of late term abortion could be a good decision maker in other areas????
Is this not a reflection of his heart? Would the condition of his heart not influence everything else about him??
Is this just a personal conviction of mine?
I really want to be as fair and reasonable as possible.
For me...a man who's gut isn't to protect those who cannnot protect themselves ....to defend the defenseless....to let babies die with no care when it's documented to take 45 minutes to several hours before they die....this isn't a person I can trust with anything.
I've sent Obama's voting record and his arguments to both my children.
Without just giving a knee jerk reaction....what do yall think?
Sorry :ROE vs Wade
gmommy,
Your link.
Gmommy -
I do not think it is a knee jerk reaction. It is one more evidence of Obama's heart. He says that "when necessary he knows when and how to stand up for what is right." But I cannot find evidence of that in the past. (Not speaking in every circumstance, just in very general terms.)
What is next with him? Children with handicaps? People with terminal illnesses? The elderly? I know people say that it is just "fear" that makes people like me worry about things like that. But it is HIS track record that makes me afraid. He does not support life - at least nothing that I hold dear.
I fear for our nation in so many ways if he is elected president. I fear for our safety. I fear for our economy. I fear for my rights as a Christian. Obama's view of what I as a Christian can and should do is NOT the same as mine.
I am very confused and concerned as to why so many people are not able to think critically about that man. He has been caught in lie after lie after lie. He has been caught in one "unfortunate" relationship after another. And yet, so few are willing to stand up and vote against him. It is the BBC saga all over again. Mistake of the heart not of the head or whatever that dumb saying was. (To me it never made sense no matter which way you said it.)
I know God is in control. But God being in control has nothing to do with safety or security. And I think the USA and Israel will pay for the way we are behaving.
In 1999 a gruesome discovery was made that an Illinois hospital was shelving babies to die in a soiled utility room who had survived their abortions.
The Illinois Born Alive Infants Protection Act was introduced in 2001 to provide legal protection to all born babies, wanted or not, including the right to medical care.
Then-state Senator Barack Obama voted against Born Alive 4 times in 3 years and was the sole senator to speak against it on the Senate floor in 2001 and 2002.
In 2002, the Federal version of Born Alive passed unanimously in the US Senate and by overwhelming voice vote in the House. The pro-abortion group NARAL even went neutral on the bill.
But In 2003, Barack Obama voted against the identical version of Born Alive in Illinois. Then, for the next 4 years he repeatedly misrepresented his vote until it was recently discovered in the IL General Assembly archives.
Explore our website to learn the shocking truth: Senator Obama opposed granting legal recognition to born alive infants as human beings, and thus denied them the guarantee of medical care.
View Barack Obama's Actual Voting Record
The SBC has long been known for its "gimmicks." My mom remembers one from back in the 1950's. This is where the memory of an elephant is coming to good use.
IWHK,
I was wondering when someone would comment on the fan not helping in 110 degree heat. Basically all that is doing is blowing around a lot of really hot air. Nothing compared to souls being saved!!!!
bwg said:
I know God is in control. But God being in control has nothing to do with safety or security. And I think the USA and Israel will pay for the way we are behaving.
And to that I say AMEN! I believe we are already being punished for our actions as a nation. You have people saying we shouldn't blame massive storms on God's judgement. What do we attribute it to??? I heard a story at the Seminary about a group of Christians in Sumatra who wanted to have a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ in their town square. Because their area is 97% Muslim, they were denied. They decided to go up to the mountains to celebrate up there and when they came back their entire village had been wiped out by the tsunami. Is that some sort of coincidence? Is God trying to get our attention with all these monstrous storms? I believe so. Others will disagree and that is your right.
gmommy,
Your article...
Sorry, can't cite the source and hope I got all the links right.
A package of Born Alive bills was introduced three times during Obama's tenure.
The cornerstone bill was the Born Alive Infants Protection Act, aka "Born Alive Infant Defined," which defined legal personhood to include born alive infants any time the words "person," "human being," "child," or "individual" was stated in IL law.
This definition was identical to the federal BAIPA which was drafted from the definition of "live birth" created by the World Health Organization in 1950 and adopted by the United Nations in 1955.
Following are Obama's actions and votes on Born Alive. The bill number changed every year it was reintroduced.
2001
Senate Bill 1095, Born Alive Infant Protection Act
Obama's "no" vote in the IL Senate Judiciary Committee, March 28, 2001
Transcript of Obama's verbal opposition to Born Alive on the IL Senate floor, March 30, 2001, pages 84-90
Obama's "present" vote on the IL Senate floor, March 30, 2001
2002
Senate Bill 1662, Born Alive Infant Protection Act
Obama's "no" vote in the Senate Judiciary Committee, March 6, 2002
Transcript of Obama's verbal opposition to Born Alive on the IL Senate floor, April 4, 2002, pages 28-35
Obama's "no" vote on the IL Senate floor, April 4, 2002
Listen to audio from Obama's 2002 IL Senate floor debate wherein he argued that while babies might be aborted alive, it would be a "burden" to a mother's "original decision" to assess and treat them.
Meanwhile, the federal Born Alive Infants Protection Act with a "neutrality clause" added passed the U.S. Senate 98-0, the U.S. House overwhelmingly, and was signed into law August 5, 2002. The pro-abortion group NARAL expressed neutrality on the bill.
2003
Senate Bill 1082, Born Alive Infant Protection Act
Democrats took control of the IL Senate with the 2002 elections. This year Born Alive was sent to the Health & Human Services Committee, chaired by Barack Obama.
As can be seen on the vote docket, Obama first voted to amend SB1082 to add the "neutrality clause" from the federal version of Born Alive to the IL version to make them absolutely identical. (DP#1 means "Do Pass Amendment #1.)
Then Obama voted against the identical version. (DPA means, "Do Pass as Amended.)
Additional corroboration of Obama's vote: IL State Senate Republican Staff Analysis of SB 1082, March 12-13, 2003, bottom of page 2
For 4 years following his 2003 vote Obama misrepresented it, stating the wording of the IL version of Born Alive was not the same as the federal version, and he would have voted for it if so. As recently as August 16, 2008 Obama made this false assertion.
But when evidence presented was irrefutable, Obama's campaign on August 18, 2008, admitted the truth to the New York Sun.
The nonpartison group FactCheck.org has since corroborated Obama voted against identical legislation as passed overwhelmingly on the federal level and then misrepresented his vote.
The Rest of the Story
GRANT GETS SALARY FOR SEMINARY CREDIT, WHILE OTHERS LOSE JOBS
“Gaines will complete his master of divinity program at Southern this fall by completing his applied ministry course at Bellevue Baptist Church in Cordova, Tenn., near Memphis. Gaines will help his father and senior pastor Steve Gaines — the successor to long-time Bellevue pastor Adrian Rogers — establish a pastoral internship program at the church.”
Grant has not graduated from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, but is still in school working on his Master of Divinity
“Southern's applied ministry program — required of every M.Div. student — expects students to develop a new ministry or contribute new elements to an existing ministry within a local church. Students may also complete the program by participating in a short-term missions trip.”
“The goal of the Applied Ministry course is to enrich the overall education of students by enabling them to apply classroom knowledge in a practical, face-to-face ministry situation, according to the Applied Ministry handbook.”
So instead of a mission trip or volunteering in a church, Grant Gaines, was hired by his father Steve Gaines, in a position Steve created so Grant can earn money, living in a Bellevue owned house, (not Bellevue Woods as originally tried), as he earns school credit.
This program will not start until
“….Bellevue plans to launch the program in the spring or fall of 2009.”
Here is How Steve Explains It
“Grant is about to finish his Masters of Divinity program at Southern Seminary and then he begins his Ph.D. work in Theology at Southern next February. We had a little window of time, about five months, and I’ve been wanting to start a pastoral intern program here where we take young men, either about to go to seminary or just out of seminary and help train them to become pastors. About six months, take them, show them what the church is all about. What church better to do that than here at Bellevue.”
What church, indeed! In the meantime 80 BBC employees have reportedly been laid off with more layoffs to come, and the Family Fun Festival (among other things) goes on.
~ gmommy, =8-{
I was already opposed to and scared of Obama for so many reasons. Thank you and NASS for your research, but my heart really hurts tonight...
~ I'm rejoicing for new jobs, praying for Samuel and for oc's Mama, praying for a dear one writing a research paper, and praying for so many people who refuse to see their need for forgiveness and find freedom.
~ Welcome, thy peace. I'm sorry you can relate so well to our situation, but there is a fellowship of suffering that can bring us all closer to God.
~ The first 4 posts of this thread were written about Steve's miracle furniture. They could easily apply to Eric Brand's Fan story. Oh, the irony of 7:59 PM, October 10, 2008!!
~ If you've ever seen the belly of a snake in the mud, Steve Gaines is lower still. I pity him. Firing 80 to make way for his son (oh, and the Family Fun Festival with its freebies all over the North end of BBC property.) Any word on which departments lost folks? They can't talk, but...
~ I've seen FIREPROOF for the second time now. No matter who hurts you, God's Love is greater still. When the fire comes, will you be able to stand? Don't play games with the Wrath of God... There are serious consequences! LOL!!
If you haven't seen it yet, go see this movie: Fireproof!
MJM said:
How long has it been - for any of us - since we had an approachable pastor. One where you could just drop by the church office in the middle of the week and ask the church secretary, "Is he in?" - and then just be buzzed on back. Or just catch him in the hall after service and "catch up" on each other's lives? When was the last time any of us had a pastor who felt he could come to us to help him carry part of his ministry burden in prayer? When was the last time any of us had a pastor who remembered our name when we greeted him after the service?
and
...sometimes a hurting sheep just needs to be held and loved on by the shepherd.
You've described our experience at Ellendale Baptist perfectly. Bro. Jerry is the pastor I was praying for during Bellevue's search -- I just didn't know the unexpected way God would answer. I related this to a dear brother tonight who told me he was moved to begin praying for Dr. Rogers successor 20 years ago (!) and that he also feels Bro. Jerry is that pastor. What a mighty God we serve!
gmommy said...
but my understanding is that the unpardonable sin is to refuse to believe ...to harden our hearts against Christ.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
The passages concerning the unpardonable sin are Matt. 12:31-32, Mark 3:28-30 and Luke 12:10. Matthew and Mark provide the most complete contexts, Matt. 12:22-32 and Mark 3:20-30.
There are differing views on the "unpardonable sin." Some say it was a unique situation that could not occur today but only while Christ was on earth. But Jesus said "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him..." Thus it is not a sin against the Son, either on earth or in Heaven, but a sin against the Holy Spirit.
Remember that the work of the Holy Spirit is to convince men of sin and testify of Jesus Christ -- in short, the work of regeneration. The Pharisees, who were trained in the scriptures, were watching messianic prophecies be fulfilled before their very eyes. They knew full well who Jesus was. The Holy Spirit bore witness to them of His identity. Yet they rejected that clear testimony, hardened their hearts and attributed His work to Satan, sinning against the light graciously given them. Jesus said "But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!" (Matt. 6:23)
I believe this sin can be committed today. When a person has seen the truth in its fulness, knows it is the truth and turns away from it, that may be God's final call to them. Having said that, it is not something for us to determine. God is the only righteous Judge. Jesus' teaching on the unpardonable sin is a warning to repent and believe while it is still called "today".
Gaines asks"What church better to do that than here at Bellevue?”
(With tongue planted firmly in cheek) You asked the question you must want an answer. First study why nepotism in an organization is bad. Second try studying about the simple difference between right and wrong. Oh and don't ask your buddies at the country club, they don't know the difference either.
Thank you alltojesus for the scriptures and explanation concerning unpardonable sin.
I had never heard what Solomon referenced as being the unpardonable sin.
I hope that helps Sol also.
We can all learn from each other.
Given Steve's unabashed propensity for nepotism and track record for follow-through (remember the Prayer Chapel?), don't be surprised if son Grant is the first and last enrollee in Bellevue's "pastoral internship" program. Interesting how its scope and timing exactly fits Grant's immediate needs. "Shameless" is a better word.
Not to defend SG, but Dr. Rogers
son-in-law, Mike Foster, was on staff, left, came back then left again.
The number of lay offs thus far is not 80. It's in the teens.
I was told the budget for the fall festival is $50,000.
Ed Young at 2nd Houston has two sons on staff.
Nepotism is nepotism no matter who's doing it.
"I was told the budget for the fall festival is $50,000."
They must be scaling it back from last year then because I would find it very hard to believe they threw that big bash they had last year for $50,000. Maybe that was the deposit DC was talking about.
Does anyone know where SG was Sunday?
Steve & Donna Gaines are in Honduras on a mission trip - I believe they also took their youngest daughter.
Thank you.
What do y'all know about John Nada?
www.myspace.com/johnnada80
He has a YouTube video: Wake Up Call
This is a 2.5 hour long movie, and there is some bad language in it (mostly at the part that covers education.) Shut your door and watch it. It is about the effort to bring about a one world government, a "new world order."
=8-{
The link above is to the complete movie. It is also broken up into 16shorter segments on YouTube...
This man does not appear to be a christian. I wonder what he would think if he read the Bible in reference to end-time prophecy?
I will trust You, Lord!
Nepotism? SG has nothing on Mac Brunson. Mac hired his wife on staff and son on staff Day 1 he touched down in Jax. His wife has an office in the 3000 sf pastors office suite that was constructed at a cost of $100,000 in the most prime space on our campus - the ground floor of our children's building. Wife apparently has many weeks of vacation each year as she travels with Mac on his Holy Land trips, takes time to travel up north to see the kiddos...and we really don't even know what her job title or respnosibilities are...and she serves as an IMB trustee. Son is on staff as the "Director of Special Projects" (formerly known as the "Director of whatever dad needs me to do to earn a paycheck"). One of his main tasks is coordination of the Pastors Conference, which as you'll see on my blog very soon has been turned into an advertising and money making bonanza by the Dir of Special Projects. He was hired at a salary of between $40k and $50 right out of a 4 year college at age 22. Mac views his son as being very skilled at "raising money" (didnt know we "raised funds" at baptist churches) as Mac so (in)eloquently and unashamedly told all the pastors at the pastors conference in February.
Anyone that works in any organization knows the dangers to that organization presented by nepotism.
I can see a pastor who has been at a church for many years, perhaps given the leeway to hire a family member, so long as that family member is NOT a direct report to the pastor, a clearly defined job description and performance review system is in place, and its very clear that the pastor has no influence over performance evals and merit raises.
Ask David Combs if the church has a nepotism policy. Any large employer worth its salt, including churches, will have a nepotism policy explaining who can and can't be hired, and what conditions must be met if a family member of a person in leadership is hired.
January,
I'm not sure what year you are in but you are wrong on the carnival only costing $50,000. Try 10 times your figure according to a staff member who was in on the meetings last year.
Do you really think you could get a traveling carnival show of any size to move their equipment for $50,000?
As long as people are gullable to believe what's told them without any accountablility, I guess the show will continue to go on.
Totally off topic but interesting.
Hmmm...
Also interesting. Oops!
Anyone have anything really funny or really happy to share????
I need a medicinal laugh:)
A shared an old Dr Rogers' story with a friend of mine today and he loved it. I know we're not to recall Dr Rogers but I had him as my pastor for 30 years and I have a very good memory so I just can't help myself.
The 2nd grade sunday school teacher asked her class if anyone knew what a lie is?
One little girl replied, a lie is an abomination to the Lord, as ever present help in times of trouble.
gmommy,
Sarah Palin is invited to meet with the Pope while he is vacationing south of Rome in Venice. The liberal press reluctantly watches the semi-private audience, hoping they will be able to allot minimal coverage, if any. The Pope asks Governor Palin to join him on a gondola ride through the canals of Venice.
They’re admiring the sights and agreeing on moral issues when, all of a sudden, the Pope’s hat (zucchetto) blows off his head and out into the water. The gondolier starts to reach for the pontiff’s cap with his pole, but this move threatens to overturn the floating craft. Sarah waves the tour guide off, saying, “Wait, wait. I’ll take care of this. Don't worry.” She steps off the gondola onto the surface of the water and walks out to the Pope’s hat, bends over and picks it up. She walks back across the water to the gondola and steps aboard. She hands the hat to the Pope amid stunned silence.
The next morning the topic of conversation among Democrats in Congress, CBS News, NBC News, ABC News, CNN, the New York Times, Hollywood celebrities, and in France and Germany is: “Palin Can’t Swim.”
awwww...cute!!
I'm kinda freaked out because AR is "on facebook".
That's just too creepy for me.
I'm not "becoming a friend."
Are other people going to make up messages from heaven to put on the site???
too much for me.
OK...your story was cute but I think I need to try some ice cream too.
Oh gross...I just saw a piglet fall out of a mother pig on Oprah....I am sick now....forget the ice cream.
FBCJAX: I'm sure you are misunderstanding the situation. I'm sure Mrs. Brunson is taking business trips.
In James it says that leaders are held to a higher accountability. Would make me shiver if I were using God's House like some of these men are currently using it.....
"I'm sure Mrs. Brunson is taking business trips."
Uh huh. Right.
gmommy, methinks you should turn off all "screens" for a while! Sometimes, ignorance is bliss. I don't even want to know why Oprah was interviewing a sow in labor! LOL
Here is something funny about Mergers and Acquisitions...
Here's some good advice in this world of financial turmoil, mergers, and acquisitions. For all of you with any money left, be aware of the next expected mergers so that you can get in on the ground floor and make some BIG bucks.
Watch for these consolidations later this year:
1.) Hale Business Systems, Mary Kay Cosmetics, Fuller Brush, and W R. Grace Co. will merge and become: Hale, Mary, Fuller, Grace.
2.) Polygram Records, Warner Bros., and Zesta Crackers join forces and Become: Poly, Warner, Cracker.
3.) 3M will merge with Goodyear and become: MMMGood.
4. Zippo Manufacturing, Audi Motors, Dofasco, and Dakota Mining will merge and become: ZipAudiDoDa
5. FedEx is expected to join its competitor, UPS, and become: FedUP.
6. Fairchild Electronics and Honeywell Computers will become: Fairwell Honeychild.
7. Grey Poupon and Docker Pants are expected to become: PouponPants.
8. Knotts Berry Farm and the National Organization of Women will become: Knott NOW!
What flavor ice cream did you try? If you need help with the next bowl, you let me know and I'll be right over! :oD
LOL!!! Those are great Tn Liz!!!!!!
What a smart,quick mind you have!!!!!
gmommy, I didn't come up with those, but I found more that might make you laugh:
Why did the chicken cross the road?
BARACK OBAMA: The chicken crossed the road because it was time for a change! The chicken wanted change!
JOHN MC CAIN: My friends, that chicken crossed the road because he recognized the need to engage in cooperation and dialogue with all the chickens on the other side of the road.
HILLARY CLINTON: When I was First Lady, I personally helped that little chicken to cross the road. This experience makes me uniquely qualified to ensure right from Day One that every chicken in this country gets the chance it deserves to cross the road. But then, this really isn't about me.
GEORGE W. BUSH: We don't really care why the chicken crossed the road. We just want to know if the chicken is on our side of the road, or not. The chicken is either against us, or for us. There is no middle ground here.
DICK CHENEY: Where's my gun?
COLIN POWELL: Now to the left of the screen, you can clearly see the satellite image of the chicken crossing the road.
BILL CLINTON: I did not cross the road with that chicken. What is your definition of chicken?
AL GORE: I invented the chicken.
JOHN KERRY: I voted to let the chicken cross the road, but I am now against it! It was the wrong road to cross, and I was misled about the chicken's intentions. I am not for it now, and will remain against it.
AL SHARPTON: Why are all the chickens white? We need some black chickens.
DR. PHIL: The problem we have here is that this chicken won't realize that he must first deal with the problem on this side of the road before it goes after the problem on the other side of the road. What we need to do is help him realize how stupid he is acting by not taking on his current problems before adding new problems.
OPRAH: Well, I understand that the chicken is having problems, which is why he wants to cross this road so bad. So instead of having the chicken learn from his mistakes and take falls, which is a part of life, I'm going to give this chicken a car so that he can just drive across the road and not live his life like the rest of the chickens.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN: We have reason to believe there is a chicken, but we have not yet been allowed to have access to the other side of the road.
NANCY GRACE: That chicken crossed the road because he's guilty ! You can see it in his eyes and the way he walks.
PAT BUCHANAN: To steal the job of a decent, hardworking American.
DR SEUSS: Did the chicken cross the road? Did he cross it with a toad? Did he cross it with a hare? Did he cross it with a bear? Did he check if the road was hot? I kinda doubt it, I think not!
Yes, the chicken crossed the road, but why it crossed, I've not been told. Just one more thing I have to say, it's been bugging me to this very day. If the Chicken is a she, why do we keep saying HE?
ERNEST HEMINGWAY: To die in the rain, alone.
GRANDPA: In my day we didn't ask why the chicken crossed the road. Somebody told us the chicken crossed the road, and that was good enough.
BARBARA WALTERS: Isn't that interesting? In a few moments, we will be listening to the chicken tell, for the first time, the heart warming story of how it experienced a
serious case of molting, and went on to accomplish its lifelong dream of crossing the road.
ARISTOTLE: It is the nature of chickens to cross the road.
JOHN LENNON: Imagine all the chickens in the world crossing roads together, in peace.
BILL GATES: I have just released eChicken2008, which will not only cross roads, but will lay eggs, file your important documents, and balance your checkbook. Internet Explorer is an integral part of eChicken2008. This new platform is much more stable and will never cras#@&&%%... Must reboot.
ALBERT EINSTEIN: Did the chicken really cross the road, or did the road move beneath the chicken?
COLONEL SANDERS: Did I miss one?
Love it Lizzie!
I couldn't watch the debate. What did OB say about late term abortion??
I read on FB that he clarified his stand.
On a blog my daughter writes on ...a bunch of her friends(these are well educated, Christian raised young people) are talking about how angry MC was and how clear, calm , and factual OB was....
have we had a president in the last 15 years who did what he promised and made a big difference????
To read what they are writing you'd think OB is riding in on a white horse and will single handedly clean up America.
Lizzie,
Thats hillarious.
BTW My Friends,
Please keep a young man named Ryan in your prayers tonight. At the bowling alley tonight, he collapsed while bowling. They do not know for sure, but they think it might have been either a heart attack or a bad reaction to new medications. He's rather young, but has had heart problems in the past. He's only 24 years old.
gmommy,
I saw it bit differently. Yes, Obama seemed calm, and he spoke well. But I didn't see McCain as angry, instead I saw some fiestiness there, and I liked that. But I really don't think this debate changed anybody's mind; neither one scored a knock out.
Hey Lynn,
Praying for Ryan.
Please visit FBC Jax Watchdog. Lot of activity for the past two weeks.
URGENT MESSAGE: Spread the Word of Brunsons' Greed
Obama wants to "spread the wealth." Okay, let's see how much of their own wealth the Obamas and Bidens have spread in the past few years!
Heavenly Father,
24 years ago, a young man named Ryan was born. I don't know where Ryan has been, but Lynn knows that he needs You tonight. Protect Ryan's heart, please? If he doesn't already know you, Lord, may he come to know You through this crisis in his life. Hold him in Your Hands, and be the Great Physician for him. Please bless his family and friends, and let them see You move in Ryan's life. Bless Lynn for sharing this need with us. Thank You for Jesus, and help me to love Him even more.
Amen
______________________________________
About this election ~ Can't you feel something now like many of us felt 2 years ago at BBC? Something is wrong, but nobody is listening.
I keep listening for trumpets, 'cause things are looking really dark down here.
Dark... Do y'all remember what Dr. Rogers said about diamonds? Something about the jeweler displaying his most precious diamond against the darkest backdrop...
______________________________________
Who sang this at Bellevue back in 2003? It was a young guy, and he was so convincing when he sang... This version is the most worshipful I could find that wasn't musically distracting: Midnight Cry
I hear the sound of a mighty rushing wind
And it’s closer now than it’s ever been
I can almost hear the trumpet
As Gabriel sounds the call
At the midnight cry,
We’ll be going home
When Jesus steps out on a cloud
To call His children
The dead in Christ shall rise
To meet Him in the air
And then those that remain
Shall be quickly changed
At the midnight cry
When Jesus comes again
I look around me
I see prophecy fulfilled
And signs of the times
They’re appearing everywhere
I can almost hear the Father, as He says,
"It's time to get My children back to God"
And at the midnight cry,
The Bride of Christ will rise
When Jesus steps out on a cloud
To call His children
The dead in Christ shall rise
To meet Him in the air
And then those that remain
Shall be quickly changed
At the midnight cry...
At the midnight cry...
At the midnight cry...
When Jesus steps out on a cloud
To call His children
The dead in Christ shall rise
To meet Him in the air
And then those that remain
Shall be quickly changed
At the midnight cry
We'll be going home...
We'll be going home.
\O/ \O/ \O/
thy peace, I'm off to visit FBC JAX Watchdog. When I read that name, something in me wants to growl!
Who sang this at Bellevue back in 2003? It was a young guy, and he was so convincing when he sang... Midnight Cry
Eddie Struble
I was just informed that the layoffs are continuing at BBC this week. A man with a wife and young children was told yesterday (Wednesday) that tomorrow (Friday) will be his last day of work. There are no unemployment benefits because churches are exempt. Not that having a wife and young children "entitles" anyone to a job any more than anyone else. After all, getting married and having children is a personal choice, but it just goes to show that while Bellevue may "love" Memphis, they couldn't care less about the welfare of (some of) their employees.
Ah. Sweet Compassion.
The lady appears to be at the very least...uh...fickle.
Just sayin'.
oc.
I think the point of the furniture story was that Steve doesn't tell it very consistently. I back up that statement with this:
I received a miracle healing from God in 2005, but I bet you most of you have no idea what it is. Do you know why the only people that know about my miracle are the ones who actully witnessed it? Because it was a blessing to me and those who witnessed it. God didn't heal me so I could brag on God - he doesn't need my help in that department. People come to follow God by following the "still small voice", not the blustery bragging from a pulpit. And if God did need Steve to brag about the "miracle" surely Steve would have gotten EVERY SINGLE DETAIL correct and never falter. I have NEVER faltered in my memory of my miracle, and it happened in 2005.
My other problem with the presentation of said miracle is this - Steve Gaines has a tendancy to embellish or diminish facts, ie, "we stepped over this itty bitty fence" - I still want to measure Steve's inseam to see if it's 41 inches. That's the only way he'd be physically able to "step over" a 42 inch high fence.
Anyway, I couldn't stay silent on this topic due to my experience with miracles. Thanks!
PS: Randy and I joined Ellendale 2 Sundays ago! :)
I'm hearing of more BBC layoffs this week. Something like 20 in the past two days, and more to come today. So far I've heard of cuts in security (the night supervisor), nearly the entire data services department, computer repair, at least one in children's ministry, and the Director of Finance. They may also be looking at selling the large buses.
Not to worry, though, the Family Fun Festival will go on as planned.
In the meantime, MABTS has reportedly received a $6 million donation to retire their debt. Needless to say it didn't come from BBC.
\O/ I am thrilled for MABTS!!
On another note, gmommy has inspired me. Comic relief is a good thing these days.
Check this out!
It's a clip from an old Bob Hope movie...
New BBC Open Forum said...
In the meantime, MABTS has reportedly received a $6 million donation to retire their debt.
I wish I had some friends like that!
Junkster,
Since I'm your friend, I have 48 cents to give you. So watch your mailbox!
(Of course that's minus the stamp and applicable fees.)
So go ahead and send me the check.
The $6 million debt has indeed been paid off by an anonymous donor. Dr. Spradlin has also asked for prayer partners for the Live By the Word broadcasts. There is a financial need there - $200,000 needed by Jan. 31st. I assume the show is going national on Bott or at least adding new stations. Please pray that this need will be met. The $6 million was received the week the financial system went DOWN, DOWN, DOWN!!!!!
I'm really out of the loop sometimes. And I may have heard but yet not remember. But why was MABTS six Million dollars in debt?
They had to erect a building on that land BBC gave them.
And forgive me further, why did they have the need to build that building?
And I'm not being "obnoxious", my questions are honest, because I admit my ignorance in all this.
I'm honestly trying to understand.
oc.
MABTS used to occupy the old location of Germantown Baptist Church in the center of Germantown. There were no dormitories on site and there was no room for expansion. Then Methodist Hospital Germantown made a offer to buy the MABT location so that they could expand the Hospital.
In doing so MABT had to find a new location, which BBC generously offered under the leadership of its previous pastor. The new location cost more than the monies received
Further information Here
bowtheknee said...
The $6 million debt has indeed been paid off by an anonymous donor. Dr. Spradlin has also asked for prayer partners for the Live By the Word broadcasts. There is a financial need there - $200,000 needed by Jan. 31st. I assume the show is going national on Bott or at least adding new stations.
Here's a radical thought ... don't expand a ministry if you don't already have the money to fund it.
oc said...
And forgive me further, why did they have the need to build that building?
And I'm not being "obnoxious", my questions are honest, because I admit my ignorance in all this.
Here's a radical thought ... don't build a building unless you already have the money to fund it.
(But to be fair on that one, it might not have been wise to miss the gift of the land across from Bellevue, and the opportunity to sell the campus in Germantown to Methodist Hospital and sell the apartments in Mississippi and build all new buildings at a more convenient location and bring everything together in one place.)
oc said...
Junkster,
Since I'm your friend, I have 48 cents to give you. So watch your mailbox!
(Of course that's minus the stamp and applicable fees.)
So go ahead and send me the check.
The Czech is in the Male.
Ya know...
If you look at the lyrics of AC/DC's "Moneytalks" with the exception of a line or two....you could think they were talking about some of these high dollar pulpit pimps.
Alright Junk.
You are scarin' me just a bit..
It may have been easy to detect that I'm male. OK. I'm fine with that. But how did you detect I'm Czech? I actually am.
Anyway, about all this "debt" stuff. As I read the Scriptures, it is evident that we should not be enslaved to such. So if it a case for individual Christian, then why are Christian institutions begging?
It just says to me that something is not right somehow. And I'm not even bright enough to go on beyond that. But some things don't require a seminary education to know that something is not right. Some things are just common sense.
Sometimes the Lord just speaks.
He does that with no degree.
Just sayin'.
oc.
There are a number of minor inaccuracies in the Memphis Business Journal article that Lynn provided the link for, but the basics are right.
As far as the seminary's former debt -- the assets far outweighed it, so there was relly no inappropriate oligation. And though they let people know when they have a financial need, they never directly ask for money. I wish more Christian institutions would do likewise.
The "assets far out weighed the debt". Ok. I am a bit slow in some things. Help me out here.
Because I'm really lost now.
So forgive my slowness once again, because my simple mind does not see a problem with having assets that outweigh the debts. Love to have that situation happen to me personally.
I may be dense, so deal gently with me, but I'm still trying to understand.
oc.
From that article:
"Bellevue didn't have an imminent need to profit off the land because it has no debt on its own campus."
My, how things can change in four short years. I wonder if they've since reconsidered that decision?
In "October Surprise" , Molotov Mitchell interviews the Plaintiff in a stunning Federal Case against Barry 'Barack' Obama. The case is nothing short of electrifying, but the Mainstream Media is now doing its best to keep all Americans in the dark.
If Barack Obama is a natural-born American citizen, why isn't he cooperating with the court?
Philip J. Berg, who is interviewed on this film, is the Democrat lawyer who has filed a suit regarding Obama's Birth Certificate.
And so all of that "kindness" translated into six million dollars of debt? (see my 6:49 post.)
I think I shall not go any further with this, because I know tender feelings are involved. I've felt them before whenever I made even a possible hint of negative comment concerning MABTS. But I will never understand why we make it look like Christ is a beggar.
Why should He ever be portrayed as an irresponsible beggar who squandered what He had and spent beyond His means and now depends on us to bail him out?
And then we have the nerve to complain that too many people are on welfare and nobody wants to hear about Jesus.
Just sayin'.
oc.
MATBS owed about 2M on their facility.Under the previous leadership of BBC, the MABTS construction debt would have been paid off by now, which was the original plan. They needed a serious upgrade of computers and/or a computer system which was at/or around 200K. With this donation, which is nothing less than a miracle, they retired their construction debt, upgraded the computers/systems and placed the balance in FDIC secured CD's spread around in various banks. All the remaining $$ are secure and earning interest and will be used as the Lord leads.
Be thankful that the Lord meets the needs of those who serve Him and follow His leading instead of critizing His miraculous gift to them.
In hindsight, I certainly would have liked to see Dr. Rogers remove Mark Dougharty many years ago when, after Dr. Rogers made it perfectly clear that the land was to be given free and clear to MABTS, Mark went behind his back and tried to extort money from the seminary. To me, that kind of insubordination should have been delt with using a heavy hand, but Dr Rogers was too kind hearted to let him go. I think that was the problem with the leadership and partly to blame for some of the problems today. As strong a man as Dr Rogers was, he was the most kind hearted, considerate man I have ever known. Praise the Lord that He had given Dr Rogers the insight to further raise up an institution like MABTS and what the Lord builds, He does not build in vain, nor does He have them begging bread, which they haven't.
And then we get all excited and hoot and holler... "Oh goody! Jesus actually paid His bill!"
As if
we were wondering about His ability to do so.
But my disappointment lies not only in our surprise that He could actually pay the bill that we've run up, but we don't know how easy that was in relation to bill He paid for my sins. That HE actually paid my real eternal debt somehow has become secondary. But my further surprise, I guess you could call it dismay, lies in the fact that anyone, especially any one of His children, thinks He has any debt to pay after what He's already done.
Sometimes we are just selfish ungrateful brats. We are too much like the world to be of any use here and we are no credit to Heaven.
Just sayin'.
oc.
'He does not build in vain, nor does He have them begging bread, which they haven't.'
I believe He doesn't have US begging bread. But if there was no shortage of bread, how did we know of the lack of such? So why does the institution lack?
And yes, I knew when I asked these questions I wouldn't be recieved as friendly. I've been here before. So go right on ahead and unload.
Since Wednesday, three faces are reported to have disappeared from Bellevue's "Staff" page, Todd Gatewood, Minister, Outdoor Recreation, Adam Stroube, Director, Sports Outreach, and John Swafford, Director, Finance. The latter happens to be related by marriage to the director of LWF. You can draw your own conclusions about the significance, if any, of that.
It's pretty cold, though, when your photo is yanked from the website before you've even completed your last day of work. Brrrrrrr....
This is conjecture only, but I fully expect Jamie Parker to be out the door before too much longer and for Ryan Wingo (SG's son-in-law) to be appointed minister of music. They'll surely keep Mark Blair around to do the real work, but Wingo will be the "face."
Also, remember the Associate Pastor position was never filled after Mark Dougharty left. Any ideas for whom they might be saving that office? My guess is a certain senior pastor's son when he finishes seminary.
On a positive note (if there is one), Bellevue is considered a "reimbursing employer." That means they don't pay unemployment taxes, but if they terminate someone, s/he can apply for unemployment, and the church has to reimburse the state for whatever they pay out.
And in the meantime, good news! The Family Fun Festival will proceed as scheduled!
Hey, OC,
Trust me, bro, you don't want to get me started talking about all the things I know that have been and are being done wrong at MABTS. I am not here to defend the seminary or its people, and and I am quite confident that they would not seek to defend me, either. But neither do I wish to be a detractor of MABTS, as I have enough of my own failings to contend with.
My only point regarding their recently retired debt was that it was an expense that remained from their relocation, but they had more than enough collatoral in their assets to cover it. So, in my admittedly feeble opinion, I don't see a problem with them having owed money, when they had assets more than sufficient to pay the debt. Just like I don't have a problem with having a house mortgage as long as I know my house is worth more than the remainder I owe. (Unlike often times when folks buy a new car, and the amount they owe is greater than the value of the vehicle. Again, just my opinion, but that's the kind of debt that ought to be avoided.)
Now as to whether the $6 million given to the seminary ought to have been put to other uses, I will leave that to others and the Lord to judge. And I won't make judgment on their judgment, 'cuz I have an opinion about that, too, just not one I wish to share at this time. :)
Love ya, man!
Well, Obama says we should spread the wealth!
Junk,
My point was made poorly and in fact not made and I went around it the long way. It was not that anyone did anything wrong. It was more of a round about way to ask why if we loved them so much, then how did we let them find themselves in debt?
At Bellevue Baptist Church under the current leadership
Pedophiles receive preferential treatment:
six extra months on the job
no oversight
$50,000 in expenses to make termination legitimate
Paid leave during an “internal investigation”
Non-pedophiles: Your fired, today. Goodbye.
Jamie Parker is not going anywhere. A job like minister of music would require him to actually work. Better for him to be paid like Jamie and have to do anything.
Re JP...
I was thinking more along the lines of something like this.
Yay, gmommy! The fortuitous furniture truck of fate (fueled by your hard work) drove down your street today!
Thank you!! Yahoo!!!!!!
It's not a miracle by any means (and if it were...I would be in awe and quiet so as not to exploit) but just one of those small sweet reminders that God is good and is watching over me!!! ....even under strange conditions...especially under strange conditions!!!
TITLE: Operations Coordinator, College Ministry
DEPARTMENT: Students/College
DATE OF POSTING: September 15, 2008
SUMMARY OF DUTIES:
Under limited supervision, responsible for the day-to-day operations of the student facility (“The Vue”) by performing the following duties personally or through designated volunteer workers.
* Responsible for assigning tasks and work schedules to volunteers.
* Provides supervision to designated volunteers in all aspects of operating the facility.
* Maintains calendar of programs, activities and events.
* Requisitions office and kitchen supplies, and maintains inventory of supplies and product.
* Requests work orders for maintenance through Bellevue’s Operations department.
* Issues and tracks door key assignments.
* Oversees the opening and closing of the building per operating schedule.
* In accordance with Bellevue’s accounting procedures, disperses cash, receipts, check requests, and purchase orders.
* Verifies, allocates, and posts details of financial transactions in computer files from documents such as sales slips, invoices, receipts, check requests, and purchase orders.
* Receives student contributions to ministry, post and make deposits as directed by Bellevue’s Accounting and Finance Department.
* Assists with preparation and on-going tracking of facility’s operating budget.
* Provides administrative support to College Ministry ministerial staff.
Supervises: Barista (p.t.) and 4 resident volunteers
Days/Hours: M-F 8:15 a.m. – 4:30 p.m. standard office hours; occasional evenings and weekends.
To perform this job successfully, an individual must be able to perform each essential duty satisfactorily. The requirements listed below are representative of the knowledge, skill, and/or ability required. Reasonable accommodations may be made to enable individuals with disabilities to perform the essential functions.
Education Required: High School diploma or general education degree (GED) required. College degree preferred.
Specific Experience Required: 4 years general office support experience required. Financial operations work experience required. Supervisory experience preferred. Facilities management experience a plus.
Specific Skills Required:
* Excellent organizational and follow-up skills.
* Strong verbal and written communications skills.
* Ability to balance numerous priorities and meet deadlines while maintaining utmost professionalism.
* Demonstrated ability to work independently and as a positive contributor to team efforts, including follow-up/follow-through, organization and prioritization.
* Strong attention to detail.
* Commitment to maintain confidentiality of personal and proprietary information.
* A history of success and habit of excellence.
* Desire to work with college students
Specific Experience Required: 4 years general office support experience required. Financial operations work experience required. Supervisory experience preferred. Facilities management experience a plus.
Sounds like they want one person to do the jobs of three.
Great hours though. And it only requires a high school diploma or a GED. I wonder what it pays?
Probably not enough.
Probably right.
How many high school (or GED) graduates do you know who have "financial operations" work experience (unless that means operating a cash register), supervisory experience (unless that means supervising the night shift at McDonald's), and "facilities management" experience (see "McDonald's")? Not putting anyone down because of his level of education, but seriously, that just sounds like gobbledygook.
How many do I know... uh....let me think...hmmmm...give me a just a minute...uh... well...I'll have to get back to ya with all that.
OK OOh OOh!! Pick me! Pick me!
I got the answer now! One. Me.
Yours truly, the self proclaimed supervisor of facility, (Not only can I do it myself, I can also tell someone else to replace a light bulb) and I can balance a check book, (financial operations) and have no idea how any of that relates to working with college students but who cares anyway it's just a job.
oc.
So...when do I start?
Tn Liz,
you are very sweet :)
They knew full well who Jesus was. The Holy Spirit bore witness to them of His identity. Yet they rejected that clear testimony, hardened their hearts and attributed His work to Satan, sinning against the light graciously given them.
Very well said, a2j. But how was that light given? Was it verified by the fact that it agreed with what the listeners wanted to hear and believe? Or by the fact that it agreed with God's truth as revealed by scripture?
I simply refuse to accept that I'm an instrument of Satan because I won't abandon Bellevue, and others are instruments of righteousness because they have. Not when we profess the exact same beliefs. There's a whole lot more to sanctification and righteousness than running away from a church you feel unhappy at.
I read my Bible just like you do, and try to follow its instruction to the best of my God-given abilities. I'd never in a million years dismiss a fellow professing believer as evil, and I'm still amazed even after so long that others would brand me as such. I'm still looking for an answer to this simple question: who decided that the mark of salvation was abandoning Bellevue, and and mark of condemnation was remaining? That's a most serious judgment to make, and it's not something to be made lightly since by the measure you use to judge others you yourself will be judged.
Others have long told me to forget ever trying to reach any kind of agreement with those who are so intent on condemning those who don't agree with them about BBC as lost, but I still believe that Bellevue plays a very minor part in God's plan and that those who say such ugly things aren't aware of how they sound. I think it's entirely possible to disagree about the future of Bellevue and still be saved.
Unless I'm mistaken, you've abandoned BBC until such time as its leadership changes direction. I'm devoted to staying at BBC and using whatever influence the Lord gives me to effect those changes until he gives me and my family release. I spend every Sunday fighting for what I believe in, while you enjoy a pleasant time of non-confrontational worship at whichever church you're presently attending. I wonder, which of us is enduring the greater hardship? The one who fled to greener pastures, or the one who stayed to fight?
And let's not get bogged down in OC's forthcoming sneering rebuttal, since he abandoned all churches many years ago.
Is it better to stay and fight, or flee to the mountains and look down on those who stayed behind? If my work bears fruit someday, will you joyfully return to BBC and celebrate?
If that's your plan, it doesn't seem right to me. Why should you enjoy the fruit of my labor when you've done absolutely nothing other than anonymously grouse on a blog?
That's an honest question, and I think it deserves an honest answer from you and many others. What are you doing for Bellevue, and if it went undone, what difference would it make? For the church, and for the kingdom?
And Karen,
I'd appreciate it if you'd post your mother's circumstances on the blog. We've emailed in the past, but I cancelled my public email account when someone signed me up for 'fling.com' and 'swingers.com'. I won't speculate on who it was, but I have my suspicions.
"I'd never in a million years dismiss a fellow professing believer as evil, and I'm still amazed even after so long that others would brand me as such."
I must have missed that. Who, exactly, has labeled you "evil"? I fear that big chip you carry around on your shoulder all the time is affecting your perception of reality.
"Why should you enjoy the fruit of my labor when you've done absolutely nothing other than anonymously grouse on a blog?"
Oh, puhleaze! What are you fighting for that's such a burden to you? I thought everyone left at Bellevue was all happy now that the recalcitrants are gone. Seriously, I'd like to know what you're fighting for. And where were you hiding when people were actively trying to affect change?
Face it, Sol, you're as big a nobody at Bellevue as the rest of us are/were. Now, before you put more words in my mouth, I'm not saying you're a nobody in general (or that you're "evil" or any of the other things you've accused us of saying), just that you're a very small fish in a big (but shrinking) pond. In Steve Gaines' world, you would be considered "bait."
I do, however, sincerely wish you nothing but success in your "fight." Let us know how that turns out, will you, please? Oh, and I promise not to partake of the fruit of your labor should you be successful!
"Why should you enjoy the fruit of my labor when you've done absolutely nothing other than anonymously grouse on a blog?"
And, I might add, exactly how do you even pretend to know who among us has done what or the extent of our efforts? While you were out waging your little personal war, people were meeting and trying to organize and actually accomplish something. However, there was no strong leadership (no big-name, influential members willing to help), ridiculous power stuggles among a few within, and a lack of focus, and the efforts were more or less in vain. It was too little, too late.
I tend to agree with you that it seemed people were too quick to just up and leave, but I can only assume they were doing what they felt the Lord was leading them to do, just like you say you felt led to stay. I recall hearing about a deacon who was sympathetic who stated he'd "stand and fight" if Mrs. Rogers would go first. What a man! Is it any wonder the new "administration" ran roughshod over the masses?
It's odd that during all that time I never saw anyone named "Sol" anywhere except... well... grousing on the blog(s). As I recall, someone named "Sol" was one of the harshest critics of other people's efforts. Sadly, "Sol," when the battle was raging, you were AWOL.
"And let's not get bogged down in OC's forthcoming sneering rebuttal, since he abandoned all churches many years ago."
Well, he always baits me, and once again I'm going to bite. So here comes my "sneering rebuttal", but I'll try to make it short.
My goodness what a verbose and drama embellished recitation of horse poop you just "blessed" us with. And I'm so impressed and honored to be of such importance to you that you were compelled to stop your whining in mid-sob long enough to lob a grenade at me before continuing your pity party. And for your info, I am going to church, have been for many years. And I feel the need to let you know that your penchance for prevarication taints every proclamation or statement you make, since some of the ones you are making pronouncements to concerning me know differently than what you state. It does not look good for you or your cause or your church when you do such. But anyway I'll consider being an absentee from church at your suggestion, since it doesn't seem to be doing much good for either one of us I guess.
PS. You think about me too much.
Pray for me instead.
oc.
"Unless I'm mistaken, you've abandoned BBC until such time as its leadership changes direction."
-----------------------
Solomon, I respect your decision to "stay and fight" since you obviously feel that is God's calling for you. However, I can assure you that most of us who were led to leave BBC have no calling at all to return there should the leadership change. The Lord has led us to other vineyards to labor for His Kingdom. And the majority of us are content and getting our roots down once again. BBC is now in our rearview mirror tho' we will always be thankful for the years we were there.
Solomon,
You are the poorest judge of anyone's character. You conceded to and participated in the unfounded notion that OC and others are racist bigots. You are author of a blog in which you make judgements of people, then deem to not allow comment and rebuttal, stated as a matter of principle; then freely participate in commentary and rebuttal on other blogs, thus look like a hypocrite and a wimp.
You repeatedly pat yourself on the back, saying that you chose to stay at Bellevue and fight for reconciliation, yet never specifically say what actions you are taking--warming a pew is fighting?
I know many on this blog who did stay as long as they could, as outspoken in church as they are on the blogs. They were attacked from the pulpit, forced out of their positions, bought out of their contracts, asked to sign loyalty oaths, and intimidated one-on-one. You may call it "abandoning" the church if you want to, but that is as much your fairy tale as is the whining about bigots in your midst.
I seriously doubt that you are as outspoken in your criticism while inside Bellevue as you are when a refugee is in your crosshairs. Now you wish to levy a passive-agressive charge that you've been linked to unsavory spam by a regular here.
I thought you believed that Christ died on the cross for you already--so you can just get off of yours.
Had Bellevue provided quarter for members shocked and injured by the shameful behavior of leadership, then it wouldn't have been needed outside of it. As it played out, the leadership was too pompous and craven to provide a forum, and chose to put their precious careers before personal responsibility and authentic reconciliation.
The aftermath is that the church is undermined and destroyed, not by the people intimidated or alienated out the doors, but by that same crack leadership.
Now go back to the safery and exaltation of your blog, where you may monologue, unhindered by rebuttals from those whom you attack. You seem two-faced when you participate in an activity that you disallow from your own soapbox.
You may even call me a bigot too, hotshot.
Cakes,
Thank you for saying some things I was just about to say, but you did it in a far more eloguent and graceful way.
You saved me from some wrath, whether it be vertical or horizontal. Thanks.
Just sayin'.
oc.
One of the biggest cannards on Sol's blog is his term paper-lengthed post forwarding the thesis that the "most" of the congregation, orchestra and choir have left in droves because of the music. I've seen this load of manure shoveled here and elsewhere for so long, and it always stinks.
The loyal will never admit to themselves that people have left because Gaines and his cronies have dishonored the church, it's membership, engaged in intimidation tactics, PR stunts, partial investigations, nepotism and otherwise ran roughshod over anyone who would threaten their career-goals.
Gaines undermined his own integrity more than once by acting like a dictator, and now the chickens have come home to roost. That is why Bellevue is in crisis.
Either way, it is still the innocent who are paying the price for their vanity and hubris.
The music for some, including myself, was a factor, but not by any means the main factor. I think the music is more a symptom of the underlying problem rather than the problem itself. You named several that are of much more importance than the music. Funny how to many on the outside looking in, including our "Boo-dist" friend, the real issues and their levels of importance are obvious while those on the inside seem to be clueless.
Boo!
Dist!
"One of the biggest cannards on Sol's blog is his term paper-lengthed post forwarding the thesis that the "most" of the congregation, orchestra and choir have left in droves because of the music. I've seen this load of manure shoveled here and elsewhere for so long, and it always stinks."
This is becoming a common tactic in other megas to explain the 'falling away'. It makes those leaving look shallow. One I heard recently from another mega is that people were angry over new carpet. Another was that some people were angry they went ahead with another building.
But the real reason is because people are waking up to the dictatorial leadership and realizing they are funding a personal career track for the leadership (and in many cases their family and friends).
Maybe some are even reading their bibles alone and discovering what the true ecclesia was really like and seeing that their church resembles very little of what it is in the NC. Hint: It is not an institution.
I see Grant Gaines will be preaching in this week's Sunday evening service.
"Maybe some are even reading their bibles alone and discovering what the true ecclesia was really like and seeing that their church resembles very little of what it is in the NC. Hint: It is not an institution."
Yep. And it hurts.
Just sayin'.
oc.
And maybe they will stop rushing to the greatest show on earth Sunday morning. Maybe they will decide to just sleep in. Or maybe they will worship. But hopefully they won't flock to the "God is What We Made Him Megastore" anymore.
Just sayin'.
oc.
a2j said:
They knew full well who Jesus was. The Holy Spirit bore witness to them of His identity. Yet they rejected that clear testimony, hardened their hearts and attributed His work to Satan, sinning against the light graciously given them.
Solomon replied:
Very well said, a2j. But how was that light given? Was it verified by the fact that it agreed with what the listeners wanted to hear and believe? Or by the fact that it agreed with God's truth as revealed by scripture?
I simply refuse to accept that I'm an instrument of Satan because I won't abandon Bellevue, and others are instruments of righteousness because they have. Not when we profess the exact same beliefs. There's a whole lot more to sanctification and righteousness than running away from a church you feel unhappy at.
I read my Bible just like you do, and try to follow its instruction to the best of my God-given abilities. I'd never in a million years dismiss a fellow professing believer as evil, and I'm still amazed even after so long that others would brand me as such. I'm still looking for an answer to this simple question: who decided that the mark of salvation was abandoning Bellevue, and and mark of condemnation was remaining? That's a most serious judgment to make, and it's not something to be made lightly since by the measure you use to judge others you yourself will be judged.
Sol,
My post was a reply to gmommy's query about the unpardonable sin. You may find this hard to believe, but not everything posted here is about you, nor even Bellevue. I assure you I was in no way implying that anyone at Bellevue was an instrument of Satan, let alone you. In fact, I don't remember anyone saying that on the blog (I could be wrong.)
I didn't run away from Bellevue. Bellevue ran away from me by choosing to ignore sin in the camp. Serious concerns were raised by respected members of the congregation and deacon body and every attempt to seek an honest, forthright inquiry was rebuffed or scuttled. Those issues remain unaddressed to this day and members who persisted in asking questions were told "Find yourself another church." That's exactly what many did, myself included. We were no longer welcome.
I do not believe remaining at Bellevue is the mark of being lost. If you are honestly working to correct the abuses of the leadership, bravo. I suspect, though, you've simply decided to get happy. I invariably encounter this attitude whenever I meet old friends who are still there, even those who had been incensed by what was going on. "Oh, it's getting better. Steve's better now. He went to Israel and came back a changed man." I just have one question: Did he come back a repentant man? Did he confess and seek the church's forgiveness for his repeated lying? His many abuses of the flock? His failure to protect them from a known child molester?
Anyway, the clips I've seen lately look just like the old arrogant, boastful, sheep-beating Steve to me. I don't know why anyone would want to subject themselves or their family to that, even without Achan's loot under the carpet.
alltojesus,
Goodness! You're keeping my kind of hours!
When you were responding to my questions about unpardonable sin....I was responding to Sol's last post falsly calling something said by one of us THE unpardonable sin...which was NOT correct.
No matter how many times we attempt to explain what we went thru with the BBC scandle and break down...or the efforts others made towards reconciliation...Sol doesn't hear us.
I don't get it but nothing we say is going to change what he has decided to think.
Rather than SG and the leadership being the problem....in Sol's mind...we are.
I personally won't make any more attempts to reason with Sol and I really wanted to come to an understanding with him.
Sol, I DO want to assure you of one thing and I hope you will hear this....
I have no intentions of ever coming back to BBC.
If you single handedly get all the leaders to admit to all they did wrong and Steve stands in the pulpit with quivering lip and apologizes....I left my church of 25 years forever the day the business meeting was shut down and the mic was turned off.
That day a member was left standing at the mic...who Steve watched walk down the stairs from the balcony but passed by without so much as a nod, and joked about at the seminary the next week.
The Roberts Rules we took the time to learn were not followed by leadership, and the Parlimentarian we hired so we could conduct ourselves properly within that meeting made no difference.
(Where was their big SBC Palimentarian the next year anyway????)
I don't trust anyone in leadership at BBC to be honest much less anything else. I personally don't trust the leadership in the SBC either so I am gone!!!!!
Sol...BBC is yours. Enjoy!!!
Don't blame us for stuff there. I don't know anyone who has left that have any intentions of returning.
Be happy there!!!! You can reap all the rewards for whatever you are doing there.
No one here wants to take any of your glory or benefits!!!
Be at peace.
Just a bit off topic here....but Janis Fullilove hit the sauce again. She got busted yesterday for DUI in Tunica.
Yawn...
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