This billboard recently appeared along the south side of I-40 between Whitten Road and Sycamore View. It faces east but doesn't stand very high and is partially buried in a stand of trees behind the Century Center Business Park, so a lot of people probably haven't noticed it.
One might mistakenly conclude from reading this sign that those are the words of Steve Gaines! There is no reference to Scripture at all. No mention of God or Jesus. In fact, the first time I caught a glimpse of it from the interstate, I didn't see the reference to "Bellevue Baptist Church" because "Steve Gaines" is in much larger type.
That "quote" is the first half of I Corinthians 13:4 and the first part of verse 8.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
This is only my opinion, but it just seems that plastering your photo on a billboard while plagiarizing the Apostle Paul tramples all over that "does not boast, is not proud" part. Maybe that's why we don't see the rest of the verse on the billboard. The irony would have been too much.
Notice it's not a regular billboard, rather it looks like a big tarp wrapped around a billboard. It appears it could be taken down and reused. Will it pop up somewhere else next month? Are there more of these around town?
Am I seeing things, or is that Thomas the Tank Engine peeking out from underneath the corner of Brother Steve's photo?
597 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 597 Newer› Newest»Do we know for sure that the 14 y /o girls have been given in marriage to old men, in THIS particular cult?
I know that there was that phone call from a 16 y/o girl, but i haven't heard if they have located her or not.
I have to agree with Concerned..the Lame Stream Media would have you belive that homeschoolers are kooks that abuse their kids, and that is why they are homeschooled, to keep it hidden.
While i would be the FIRST one to defend those little girls from marriage to old lusty men, I also have a healthy distrust of our govt.
" Pick up a "Bellevue Loves Memphis" shirt at the bookstore."
Ahhh, just more symbolism over substance.
From the news reports I saw on TV, many of the teenage girls who were being loaded onto buses were pregnant.
Very good ideas AOG!!!!
Maybe you can run for one of the positions!
As far as the children go...
I heard one of the "stepford wives" (they ALL look alike with that hair, those dresses and all talk very meekly!)
say that her child wanted to come home.....why would she want to come home if she was abused?
STUPID statement!
Most children desperately love the parents that abuse them while they are young.
Most children are more afraid of the unknown and these children have been stunted and not given the opportunity to think outside the limits they have been taught to.
Probably the stepford mom that made the statement BELIVES herself that they are not being abused....it may be all she knows.
I HATE the idea of children being taken from their moms but when the moms don't or can't protect them from sexual abuse alone ....someone needs to step in and help.
And of course Cakes would sincerely hope the church with the new name will be successful making a fresh start! :)
Concerned,
Sorry for the late reply to your question. Religious freedom and the protection of it always seems to come down to 2 things. Yours....and mine.
It is hard to add to what OC or AOG have said. Muslim extremists teach us every day the hazards of freedom of religion. There will always be a few that will commit all sorts of evil under the protection of "freedom of religion" or the premise that they practice their religion while doing it.
When it relates to kids it gets even more sticky. There are those that would bristle at my claim that I practice my religion when I spank my kids for misbehaving. I have had them follow me out to the car......
Like OC and AOG, my practice of religion can never cross the line from correction to abuse.
In the Texas case, some would argue that a similar line "having too many to care for" had been crossed. If you and I have to support them then, they have too many to support. If they can't support them, then I call that child abuse. Fortunately that can be determined by the courts.
On a final note, we have neuter and spay laws to prevent the same thing happening with our pets.....and we try to place the offspring in a good home....
sotl, one of the problems in this situation is that the children are NOT being homeschooled. The girls are very poorly educated. Jeffs stopped basic education for girls back in early 2000.
I am hearing more homeschool parents defending this cult and it scares me. There are times government intrusion is good and this is one of them.
I really hope more people will read up on some of the stories of the lifestyle of this cult.
Here are some first hand testimonies from some of the 'lost boys'. These are teen boys who were banished from the cult. The main reason is they are competition for the older men with the teen girls they want to marry. These teen boys are banished on pretense of talking with someone on the outside or seeing a movie or something. Many times they are driven out to the desert and left.
http://www.childbrides.org/boys.html
yeah, these are great family models.
"On a final note, we have neuter and spay laws to prevent the same thing happening with our pets.....and we try to place the offspring in a good home...."
I know. I was thinking about this parallel last night.
Kinda like when jets were chartered by rich people to get the zoo animals out of New Orleans during the flood while they left the people.
A lot of those people in N.O. had cars and could have gotten out of harm's way in time. The zoo animals didn't have that luxury. Many of those people were sitting on their rears waiting for the government to come get them out, and that wonderful mayor they elected wasn't concerned with anything but getting his own sorry rear out of town.
Ezekiel said, Ez said, heck...can I call you Zeke, bro? :) (Doin' it anyway, without prior permission.) Zeke said:
"On a final note, we have neuter and spay laws to prevent the same thing happening with our pets.....and we try to place the offspring in a good home...."
oc says:
Good point. And might I add that there is a testing procedure by which we must comply in order to procure the privilege to drive an automobile...
Yet anyone can procreate at will.
I know. Here comes the Genesis 1:28"be fruitful and multiply" argument.
But I don't think you should be able to multiply until you know how to add and subtract.
Jussayin'.
oc.
Nass, I was thinking of all those people who were left to die in the nursing home. I can hardly stand to think some of that stuff happened in our country.
Douglas Brinkly wrote a book that chronicled events that happened up to, during and after the flood. It is an unbelievable read.
oc says:
And might I add that there is a testing procedure by which we must comply in order to procure the privilege to drive an automobile...
Yet anyone can procreate at will.
Indeed, and procreate they do ... including in automobiles.
You're right, Lin. That was sad. You'd think some of their families could have taken some of them.
I think the key word there is "privilege." Procreating is not a right; it's a privilege -- one that a lot of people haven't earned.
OC,
Zeke is fine, Bro works to...
Some interesting takes on procreation here. I guess I never knew procreation was a privilege that had to be earned. I'd be interested to know what one must do to earn that privilege. Of course we know, preceptively speaking, that it should only take place within the bonds of marriage, but I didn't know that proficiency in math was a co-requisite.
Along those lines...my daughter once posed a question to me when she was still in high school...one of her female classmates had gotten pregnant by her boyfriend. and gave birth. Her question: "When somebody has a baby and they're not married, is it God's will for that baby to be born?"
My response: "The bible teaches us that children are a blessing from the Lord. Was it God's will for this girl to get pregnant out of wedlock? No. Was it God's will for this baby to be born. Yes. God is the author of all life. The bible tells us that it is God himself who opens and closes the womb, so no child is born except by his will. Just as the death of his Son by the hands of evil men was contrary to his precepts (commandments), yet he ordained that Jesus should die at the hands of evil men. That's a hard thing for us to fully grasp, but there you have it kiddo."
We aren't capable of tracing out God's ways and purposes. Men have been trying to solve the mystery and problem of evil since the garden without much success. But we can know from what God has revealed to us that nothing exists...including evil, outside of his own will. If evil could exist on its own or usurp God in any way, then evil itself is sovereign and God ceases to be so. There can only be one sovereign, and we know by his own words he alone is..."I am the LORD, besides me there is no other." Before you gasp and cry... that makes God the author of evil...God tempts no man, and is not the author of evil or sin, including the sin of procreation out of wedlock. Yet the scriptures declare..."In the beginning, God...." Which tells us that before anything existed, there was the triune God. Now if you want to continue to say that procreation is a privilege to be earned, or perhaps "licensed", be my guest. I'll just keep teaching my daughter the right way to do things, and leave the birthrate up to the One who opens and closes the womb.
oc says:
And might I add that there is a testing procedure by which we must comply in order to procure the privilege to drive an automobile...
Yet anyone can procreate at will.
I wonder what sort of testing procedure people would need to comply with in order to procure the privilege to procreate ...
Speaking of billboards ...
I just saw that "God loves you just the way you are, and we do too" commercial of Steve Gaines (the one with Donna's particularly bad hair). And I'm wondering ... what's the point? Why would any church ever perceive a need to advertise? Billboards, TV, radio, etc. -- I just don't get why it is considered necessary or even appropriate.
It is one thing if a church has a TV or radio broadcast to announce the day/time of the broadcast, so those who can't attend, etc., know when to tune in.
But advertising the church? For what? It can't be for the current members who already know about the church and attend, so is it intended to increase membership? To increase market share? To persuade people to leave their church and join the one doing the advertising? How crass is that?? Is a church just another club to join for the benefits it offers to its patrons?
Whatever happened to growth by evangelizing and relying on the Spirit of God to bring in those whom He leads?
Is advertising a church a sin? Maybe, maybe not. But the Bible tells us that not everything that is permissible is truly beneficial. To put it bluntly, I hate seeing advertisements for a church, and I think they are unnecessary, wasteful, inappropriate, and incredibly distasteful. Just my opinion.
Well, however they are concieved and under whatever deficits of their parents, children shouldn't be relegated to the lost category.
The odds against the children I teach are great, yet I see inspirational moments everyday.
aog wrote:
"I'd be interested to know what one must do to earn that privilege."
I would say that, first and foremost, one should not be on welfare when one gets pregnant (or gets someone pregnant). And while families can fall on hard times and need temporary help, people should not expect the government (i.e. the taxpayers) to support them from the cradle to the grave. Hence, procreation is a privilege that's earned when one can support the children they choose to bring into the world. In other words, it's not an entitlement although that's the way a lot of people treat it.
"I wonder what sort of testing procedure people would need to comply with in order to procure the privilege to procreate ..."
See my answer above. And I will go out on a limb here and state that if a woman insists upon remaining on welfare and continues to pop out babies (90% of which are illegitimate), or if a man in the same situation continues to father children (again, the vast majority of whom are conceived out of wedlock), then involuntary sterilization should be required if one wishes to continue on the public dole. Call me cold or heartless or whatever. I really don't care. I'm of the same opinion as the bumper sticker that says, "If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em."
Can you tell April 15th was this week?
Maybe if this policy were put into place the odds wouldn't be so great against the children "cakes" teaches.
I agree with Junk's post about the advertising.Very tacky!
I am mostly uncomfortable with the discussion in general about having children and all that involves...especially forced sterilization.
Not terribly comfortable with over 400 children being put in a foster care system OR being forced into child slavery and sexual abuse. I don't think we can be so cut and dry about this horrible situation.
One thing I am sure of...we need to remember this is America....
we need to treasure the freedom this country has afforded us.
The government having authority to make desisions for children without the proper process is scary to me as an American.
So is child abuse....this is not simple. It is heart breaking.
I agree the FLDS situation in Texas is difficult. There is no "good" solution, and it's heartbreaking when you think about it from the children's point of view. I don't have the solution, but as far as simply giving all those children back to their parents, they're saying many of the children don't even know who their parents are!
"I am mostly uncomfortable with the discussion in general about having children and all that involves...especially forced sterilization."
I never said anyone should be forcefully sterilized. What I said was that if someone chooses to continue to procreate while insisting upon remaining on the public dole, then sterilization should be a requirement. No one would be forcefully sterilized. If they chose not to undergo elective surgery, their welfare checks would simply be cut off. The choice would be solely theirs.
Forced sterilization sounds like something from WWII Nazi Germany, and I do not advocate that except perhaps in very rare, extreme criminal cases (and that's a very serious, gray area at best), but that's not what I was talking about. I was referring to multi-generational, cradle-to-grave welfare recipients who continue to multiply at will. When is the cycle going to stop if something isn't done?
And on a related topic, I'm also sick and tired of this country allowing anyone in Mexico to illegally cross the border just to drop their babies on U.S. soil and conferring U.S. citizenship, and hence all the rights and privileges thereof, on the children. Of course this applies to children of non-U.S. citizens from other countries as well. Mexico just happens to be the worst offender because of economics and geography. No other country in the world would consider an American baby born on their soil to automatically be a citizen of their country. Why should the U.S. be any different?
The day the government decides who can be "licensed" to have children, and requires by law who gets sterilized, then we have ceased to be America by any stretch of the imagination. This is what they do in China, you know. Have you considered what would be the next step in this process?...the government will decide who lives and who dies. Those who are chosen to die will be euthanized without appeal. Isn't this akin to Hitler's Aryan purification doctrine? 6 million Jews died because they were considered "inferior" and a drain on the Reich.
I feel safe in saying that no one here supports the idea of children being born out of wedlock, or the government supporting such, but your solutions to the problem are Orwellian at best, and an attempt to remove God from his throne at worst. I don't know what your ideas are based on, but again I feel safe in saying they aren't based on anything taught in Scripture.
"For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
II Thessalonians 3:10
I think that can safely be applied to those who want to freely procreate while not working. Again, I'm talking about multi-generational, cradle-to-grave welfare recipients, not people or families who might need a temporary hand up. I fail to see how this is unscriptural. I did not say the government would decide who gets sterilized. I said that if someone chooses to continue to procreate while permanently remaining on the public dole that voluntary sterilization should be a prerequisite. The key word there is voluntary.
No one said anything about anyone dying either. Do you seriously think I'm advocating euthanasia? If you do, then you've taken a flying leap into the deep end of the illogical pool! Maybe if you stopped talking just long enough to listen to someone else for once, you might have understood what I was saying. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, as am I. After all, we haven't ceased to be America quite yet.
Memphis Connect 3on3 Basketball Tournament
If the NCAA Championship game left you craving court-time, don't miss the Memphis Connect 3on3 Basketball tournament, Saturday, May 3, at Bellevue. Players can register at http://www.connect3on3.com. Cost is $60 per team. Five registered players age 18 and older will have a chance to compete in the Hot Shot Competition for a prize of $10,000.
Register online at:
http://www.connect3on3.com/Bellevue
Is this the tithe of BBC members going to put out a $10,000.00 prize for a basketball contest???
Iwood,
What a depressing post.
That event is beyond bad taste and tacky....more than the advertising, signs,...even the billboard.
How low (and worldly) will BBC go?
Licensing? Who suggested that? That was not what I was trying to say. I know I'm not the best communicator on this blog, in fact I am the A-D-D child here, but I'm looking, and I have a hard time coming up with some of the conclusions you have accused me and others of.
Anyway, I will attempt to explain what I was trying say in my post...first, as to the alleged "licensing" comment you made.
First of all, in my post, I was agreeing with what I believe Zeke was saying. And that is, generally, it seems that people are more concerned about stray dogs than with kids.
I agreed, and added that they also seem to care more about who gets to drive a car than the welfare of the kids, and they prove it by testing people who wish to drive. My point there was; which is more important? Never did I suggest "licensing" anyone in order to procreate. You made that leap.
Furthermore, in your previous post, you take a jab and state, "I didn't know that proficiency in math was a co-requisite."
To that I say, gee whiz man. Look at my post again. I think you really know what I was saying. But in case you didn't understand it, I will explain that part of my post. I was using a play on words; using the word "multiply". I just think that those who procreate should be taught the responsibilities pertaining to it before doing so...
that they should "know the score". Maybe they should "count the cost" (not only for themselves, or the community, but more importantly for the child).
We both know it wasn't about "math". Sorry it didn't add up for you.
My post was never about "testing". It was never about "licensing". It was never about "math". It was about responsibility. I see no Scriptural warrant against what I said.
PS. I don't how you come to the conclusions you do, but you seem to read a lot "into" things that aren't there. I also know that I am not a great communicator, and I admit fault if that's the case. But it seems this happens not only with me, but with others also. So may I suggest you consider that you might be a little 'eisegenic".
Is that a real word?
By the way...
I think billboards should be against the law!
:)
My son in law called me today. He begged that I take care of his wife. We both broke down and cried together. He is heading out to Iraq again, for the second time, today at 5. Another 15 months for him and my sweet daughter away from each other. I married them in January, 2004. Two weeks later, he was off to Iraq. Now it's happening again. But I'm not in Texas this time to help my daughter.
She is in Texas, alone. I can't get there this time to be with her. Please pray for both of them. Thank you.
Larry.
Following the line of reasoning here with birth control and open wombs, I wonder just what happens when the woman and the man have all they can handle putting food on the table, providing shelter, clothing and an education working one job, what is the limit on children? There has to be a limit (self imposed) if you come home worn out and she is worn out. Then if you have to work two jobs to support all the offspring even more self limiting. I don't know where the magic number is but there just has to be one. Physically impossible and self limiting.
Even if some can provide more than enough and still have time, it seems at some point, you would both be staring at each other from across the room with "don't even think about it wrote all over your face. If not, your not doing your share....
There appears to be balance provided in scripture for that. A man only has so much sweat. Gen 3:19
It seems that the only time things get really out of balance is when sinful man starts manipulating or playing with the natural order of things by claiming some sort of religious mandate to procreate (go forth and multiply) while putting the burden of one's action on some one else. In this case, the State of Texas and its taxpayers.
If He gives them to you, he expects you to raise them. Not somebody else.
Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts.
Some aren't getting the point and are failing the test.
OC,
We will Bro. And you too...
I have been lurking often lately without posting, but in my catch up read today, several things set off my "hackles" so to speak.
1) As far as the abused children in the cult compound in Texas, THEY ARE ABUSED CHILDREN, no matter the way things were handled. Abuse of children under any guise is not acceptable. IT IS A CULT AND IT IS CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE.
2) The welfare culture of making a living by having illegitmate children. I worked in that field for years - at the old Gaylor Clinic in Memphis, I worked 20 hours as week in the OB clinic, I say ONLY new pregnancies and ONLY those under the age of 17. I saw 50 NEW CASES A DAY!!!!! Then I worked on a Federal project to address teen pregnancy in the poorest counties in the US with the highest teen pregnancy rate. The multitudes of pregnant teens I interviewed during that "project" were only interested in when the check was coming. During all my days in the public health OB world, any female over the age of 16 had already had 1 or 2 illegitmate babies, so I fully support sterilization for those making a living off my tax dollar by doing nothing more than delivering baby after baby after baby for no other reason than to get more money. In fact, the report I wrote for my Federal project was that in order to decrease teen preganancy we need to STOP PAYING PEOPLE TO HAVE ILLEGITIMATE BABIES. Needless to say, that report was immeditately trashed. And just to let you know about how the system works, I would calculate the $$ coming into each household and often times it would exceed over $2,000/month in free money, not to mention free healthcare, free income tax money, and subsidized housing. Stop paying the poor to have babies and guess what, the number of those births would decrease. Simple economics. Unfortunately, no one in Congress has the guts, not to mention there would be precious little support.
I will get off my soap box now. Thank you for allowing me to vent.
I heard SOTL was spotted... {gasp!}... dancing in public last night! I, for one, am shocked!
NASS said:
"I heard SOTL was spotted... {gasp!}... dancing in public last night! I, for one, am shocked!"
7:55 PM, April 18, 2008
Uh uh. That is not possible. SOTL is a Baptist. They aren't allowed to have fun. Haven't you heard?
I think there is is some extra biblical stuff that we are supposed to go by. I think there may be something in the Baptist Faith and Message that says...
Thou shalt not haveth fun, nor enjoyeth life, and that especiallyeth applyeth to the weaketh part of humanity, that be-ith the ribbeth part which cometh from the
mere sideth portion of man.
Too badeth you didn't cometh from a more importanteth part of man. Just thinketh, you couldeth have been from a certaineth part, and madeth man sitteth down for quite a longeth time....therefore maketh him to thinkenith just a bit, and maketh him more wiseth than he is now. Oh welleth.
Jussayineth.
oc.
Thanks Zeke.
there is a REALLY sickening video clip to click on at Stop Baptist predators....
the wolf posing as a minister...has the voice of a preacher but the words of a pervert.
Good night NASS.
NASS said:
"I heard SOTL was spotted... {gasp!}... dancing in public last night! I, for one, am shocked!"
7:55 PM, April 18, 2008
Well, people who act like that in public OUGHT to break out in spots. I mean, the very idea!
Oh, she was spotted all right!
My goodness, NASS, that actually LOOKS like SOTL -- the turn of the head, the slender ankles, and oh, the BLING!! Beautiful!
That's her all right. But at least she's not dancing, or looking like she's enjoying herself. That might be a sin.
She is lookin' a might pretty though. All sparkly and perty...
That in itself could be a sin...
So I'm sure if I work hard at it, I can turn beauty into ugly, and come up with a scripture against her...well...I'm considering this "locust" thing I've heard about...
1 Timothy 2:9
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes
1 Peter 3:3
Your adornment must not be merely external--braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses
Yeah,what you said Junk.
And furthermore, I would not be showing off like that SOTL, considering Leviticus 11:22.
I would be trying to camouflage myself instead of doing the "bling bling" thing.
But I understand why you don't...
cuz you still Rook Mahvelous!
Whoa! Hmmmmm....
Junk, are you saying that Paul and Peter didn't agree with each other?
One allowed adornment, one didn't? Or is it something else?
Hmmm.
OC,
That wasn't what I was getting at ... but if they did disagree it wouldn't be the first time. :)
Galatians 2:11-21.
Junk,
Yes they did disagree. I would go so far as to say they didn't even like each other. They were human. But even so, above it all, they decided to love each other. I suppose if they could do it, we could do it. I think love is a decision.
Yeah, leave it to me to get at what you weren't getting at. Attention Deficit Boy. Sorry.
:)
And the full matter of that was...
Galations 2:20.
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.
21. I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
And I'm a lot like Peter. I tend to hang on to what was, because the familiar comforts me. But there comes a time when faith has to have it's wings, and has to overcome what used to be. I think when that happens, abundant life happens. Letting go is hard though.
Just some rambling from a hard headed disciple.
junkster said:
"I wonder what sort of testing procedure people would need to comply with in order to procure the privilege to procreate ..."
*****
Well, I have an idea!!! Make them go thru the same process that adoptive parents face: intruding questions into VERY VERY personal aspects of a couple's life, come out to the house, look around, see where the baby's room will be...check income, send them to the FBI for fingerprinting..open up the refrigerator door, see what's in there...I could go on
and on......
SOTL checking in here:
LOLOL!!! ( hanging head in shame)
That was me, dancin up a storm at a high school prom, where I was supposed to be a chaperone :)
Whoooop Whooooop
Lin said:
"sotl, one of the problems in this situation is that the children are NOT being homeschooled. The girls are very poorly educated. Jeffs stopped basic education for girls back in early 2000. "
"I am hearing more homeschool parents defending this cult and it scares me. There are times government intrusion is good and this is one of them."
*(****
Lin,
As a home educator for almost 15 years, I am aware of many many times where social workers have totally disregarded the 4th amendment of " search and seizure" where they enter people's homes and threaten to take children away from their parents...based on a " tip" they received from someone.
You can go to HSLDL.org and read about many of them. That is the Homeschool Legal Defense organization. They are a group of lawyers that defend homeschoolers from this sort of thing.
The reason they are in existence is because of over zealous social workers and judges who have a prejudice against homeschoolers.
They think we are a cult, they think we are wierd, they think that our children are not being educated, and they think that keeping them home is nothing more than a tactic to hide the abuse that we, as parents, are perpetuating on our children.
Now, having said that...I am NOT defending that group in Texas..I just do not rush to judgement, just because govt officials label them in a certain way.
Do i think it should be investigated? Absolutely!
I heard on the news that there was no 16 y/o girl calling that "tip" in..It was a 33 y/o woman in Arizona...and it was a hoax.
IF there are children in that complex being abused, I would be the first one to defend those children.
This is why I reserve judgement on this sort of thing...
correction:
The correct website for that homeschooling legal defense association is:
HSDLA.org
oops, I made a mistake on that Homeschooling legal Defense Asso...
It's HSLDA.org
Many thanks to Nass for fixin' my dyslexia!
And to think that I home school my
youngins!!!
AMEN, SOTL.
The thing is, in my opinion, that sweeping judgments are made in these situations. TAKING THE SEXUAL ABUSE QUESTION OUT (because we can all agree that is wrong and bad and children should not be subjected to that) arrest them for breaking the law with polygamy. That's fine. But don't assume that because their way of life is different that it is inferior. In all honesty, their school probably does a better job than Memphis Public schools any day. Why would I say that? Because I have seen the textbooks used by the fundamental groups and they are great- very comprehensive and detailed.
My whole point is that ASIDE FROM THE SEXUAL ABUSE (that has certainly been shown to be an issue; however, at latest news report 5 teen girls are pregnant, not busloads) (and just as an additional thought, there are other cultures that glorify young mothers and giving birth that also rely on welfare for support. Funny...those kids aren't taken away....they are allowed to have more children too. And check with your local high school about the student pregnancy rate) people cannot presume to justify what makes a lifestyle fit. The constitution spells out our freedoms and we must be careful when we try to legislate morality.
Now, I say all this to point out that this is a very complex case and NEVER should sexual abuse be glossed over. But also, giving the government the right to decide that wearing funny clothes, or having long hair, or not watching TV, could possibly make one an unfit parent.....that is dangerous.
And I've heard people say...."They sound like robots." Goodness, they are fighting for their children and for a way of life (OUTSIDE OF THE POLYGAMY WHICH IS ILLEGAL AND THE SEXUAL ABUSE WHICH IS ILLEGAL) that is all they know. Amish and Mennonites live in a very similar way.
Arrest the polygamist; arrest the abusers.........but don't legislate lifestyle and culture within the freedoms we have and the laws we live under unless you are willing to legislate it for all. Oh...wait....wasn't that already tried? Germany, 1930's and 40's????
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/MikeGallagher/2008/04/18/something_pretty_ugly_cults_and_bill_maher?page=full&comments=true
Interesting article about the Texas cult from someone who was down there for the story. Worth a read.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/MichaelReagan/2008/04/17/saving_the_children_is_our_job?page=full&comments=true
Another interesting take....let churches "adopt" a family instead of having the government handle it. This is actually a really good idea...
feet to the faith?
Thanks for the links, NASS. I'm link-challenged!
:-)
"That's fine. But don't assume that because their way of life is different that it is inferior. In all honesty, their school probably does a better job than Memphis Public schools any day."
You guys really need to read up on this cult. There are some books from those who escaped that will explain it. It is NOT at all a 'different' lifestyle.The book by Carolyn Jessop will describe the chaotic and neglected life of the kids. Under the Banner of Heaven will also describe these cults...it is a book about the murder of one of the wives and his own child by the father who had multiple wives.
Underage marriage to an old man is considered 'statutory rape' by our laws. Polygamy is illegal.
Perhaps you did not read the story of the 'lost boy' who was banished as a teen because the old guys did not want competition from the young men for the young girls. He said he had 40 brothers and sisters. He had seen his father at a distance but NEVER had even talked with him personally. This is the norm. There are anywhere from 400-1000 lost boys who ahve been banished at very young ages. They are NOT educated at all. Their own fathers deserted them.
The girls are barely educated and it is stopped at a very young age. These people have been brainwashed but there is no individual rights or due process for any abuse or rape.
It grieves me to see so many falling for the lie that this is just a different lifestyle. It isn't. It is a cult and there is a reason Jeffs built this compound and fled Arizona City.
Keep in mind that life in this compound only means they will never hear about Christ.
If all this which is just a snippet is NOT inferior, then I do not know what is. I am becoming alarmed at how many Christians are defending these folks. What on earth do we have in common with these folks?
":You can go to HSLDL.org and read about many of them. That is the Homeschool Legal Defense organization. They are a group of lawyers that defend homeschoolers from this sort of thing."
Oh, I am familiar. But if you tell me you are buying Vision Forum stuff, I am going to be real worried about you. Certain segments of the HS movement have moved into Patriarchy. There is another movement that is 'outing' it of other homeschoolers who are Christian but disagree. If you are interested I will send you some links. Quite a few of the leaders of this Patriarchy movment have been leaders/lawyers at the Legal Defense Fund. Be careful that they aren't still using scare tactics to fund their incomes. That is a Doug Phillips tactic. He was a lawyer for them a while back.
Homeschooling has become big business...just like Christianity has.
SOTL, HOmeschooling has become so mainstream and huge that the gov cannot touch it anymore. Of course they discourage it. But too many are doing it.
This cult is NOT schooling their kids. Trust me on this. The lost boys have had to study for their GED's and are YEARS behind for their age.
I would suggest you guys read some accounts from former mormons from FLDS and the LDS
http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agora/view.php?bn=exmobb_recovery&key=1208513479&newest=1208579521
{sigh}
Link 3
YOu know,you all keep saying...IF there is abuse.... Do you want to know why they cannot match up the kids with their mothers? Because some of the 'kids' are married to the old men. Some as young as 12 or 13. Usually when they start their periods they are married off. They know to keep their mouths shut because it is considered rape by law.
You all may say the women want it but think of your 13 year old daughter NOT having a choice.
Lin said:
SOTL, HOmeschooling has become so mainstream and huge that the gov cannot touch it anymore. Of course they discourage it. But too many are doing it.
****
Lin,
Are you familiar with the case in California where the judge ruled that homeschooling is ILLEGAL in California?
Homeschoolers are CONSTANTLY fighting for their freedoms..it is not an accurate statement to say that the govt can't touch them anymore.
We just recently, this spring, had to defend our freedoms in Nashville. It took thousands of phone calls and many homeeschoolers going to Nasvhville to lobby certain legislators not to vote for a bill that would have DESTROYED homeschooling in the state of Tennessee.
When we become complacent, they will take our freedoms away. Legislators in every state are constantly trying to sneak in some law to restrict our freedoms.
It is not as easy as you seem to
think...it takes dilligence...becuase govt officials are not happy that school children that would ordinarily be assigned to a certain school district are being homeschooled, resulting in a loss of funding for that particular district.
We can NEVER let our guard down.
In all fairness in regards to the cult down in Texas. Please keep in mind the Duke Lacrosse Team case. It does seem odd that they know who committed the act, but have failed to arrest him. That does seem odd to me.
That being said, if the claim does turn out to be true, those guilty of it should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
As far as the adopt a family idea you had Concerned.....BRILLIANT idea. We the people must look out for one another. That is our role as Americans. We cannot rely on the government to do anything except mess things up.
"Are you familiar with the case in California where the judge ruled that homeschooling is ILLEGAL in California?"
Yes, I did hear about that. I need to send you some blog links.
There are some very high up in homeschool movement 'Botkins', Phillips,
Swanson, and others who do not believe in educating girls equally to boys. They argue the girls only need the basics and after that they only need homemaking skills so they can serve their fathers and when married their husbands. In this Patriarchy movement, girls are to live with their fathers until they are married. If they never marry, they never leave home.
A law student in Calif wrote a paper on this for a law review and it went from there.
If you want to fight someone, fight the wackos in the movement! Many who are homeschoolers are waking up to the fact that some in teh movement are their own worst enemies.
Of course, parents have the right NOT to educate their daughters equally but try to sell that to the general public.
I have tons of homeschooling friends and they know that the Theonomist wacko's in the movement are hurting them all.
Lin...
there is just caution on the minds of many about this situation.
Not disagreement on protecting women and children.
Who in the world said the women want it????
My daughter was a year or 2 out of college when she married. I had a hard time letting her go with her new husband that day. I can't imagine how confused these moms are to allow their baby girls to go off with dirty old men.
Did you notice one of the women they showed alot said her husband was "so patient" with her....what the heck did that mean???
another mom said "we teach them to be clean"????
very hard to understand all this...so of course, we are all going to have our areas that we empathise with.
why are we going backwards in our thinking and understanding?? It was in the 60's that my old daddy made the statement that girls didn't need an education to birth babies....he was not educated himself.
Now we have these men who would like to consider themselves scholars thinking the same backward way!
Why are these men so afraid of women!!!!
Lin, I give up. You are completely missing the point I have tried over and over to make. (And since I work for an umbrella school representing over 7,000 homeschool families, I sure I have a handle on homeschooling too)
I worry that you are painting with such a one stroke brush that you are missing some of the other colors in the painting.
Fortunately, it's not illegal to agree to disagree. :-) And still like each other!
Lin said:
"Of course, parents have the right NOT to educate their daughters equally but try to sell that to the general public.
*****
Lin,
I honestly do understand what you are saying!! It is appauling that in the 21st century, there are men ( and women) who think that girls do not need an education..The mennonite community holds to this theory, and it is very disturbing.
My grandfather used to put his 9 grandaughters on his knee and say to us, " Learn to set on your own bottom" which was the 19th century version of feminism. He was an original feminist.
I am a college graduate as is my 22 y/o daughter, who graduated cum laude from U of memphis with a degree in nursing. My daughter was the 2004 MHEA ( Memphis Home Education Associate) outstanding student of the year.
Now, having said all that...Parents DO have the right to educate their children as they see fit..and they do not need to sell it to the public..Outside of being totally truant, parents can choose what to teach to their children.
We study creationism in our homeschool..I do not want a govt official coming into my home and demanding that I teach evolution.
I'm sure that the ' general public' would agree with the govt official that we should be teaching evolution, but it is none of their business. Furthermore, I honestly do not care WHAT the govt or the public thinks about what I am teaching my children.
You mention the Patrioch movement in homeschooling, and after 15 years, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I have never heard anyone speak about such a thing at any conference I have attended, nor do I know of ANY parent that I have personally met in all these years that embraces that philosophy.
I"m not doubting that it exists, but it is not a conversation or a concern that I have EVER heard discussed in all the years I have homeschooled.
I was co-founder and co-president of a homeschool support group for many years and the topic has never come up.
I just read back over this and I hope that i do not sound harsh, becuase I did not want it to come across that way. You are very well read and I have tremendous respect for your opinions. :)
"Not disagreement on protecting women and children.
Who in the world said the women want it????"
Actually there IS disagreement on protecting women and children. People are upset about teh government raiding this compound (they have been tracking these folks for years) and see it as a possible encroachment on their own rights.
How can it be that allowing a cult to marry off underage girls off to old men is protecting women and children? How is it that is NOT abuse? How is polygamy protecting women and children? How is it that banishing teen boys is protecting children?
The question is not IF there is abuse. We already know that exists. Some are just trying to say it is lifestyle choice. But once in, it is impossible to get out without some outside help. How is that protection? Even if they do get out, they need protection to not be kidnapped and brought back to the husband.
Seems to me that if the cult wanted to get their kids back, they would be honest about who belongs to whom. But they know that could get tricky when a grown man admits that kid is his wife and 20 of the kids belong to him.
The abuse exists and is inherent in this cult. To act like it is not is ignoring the obvious.
What is even more telling is that the compound it not even full. There were hundreds of these families back in AZ waiting to go in and get away from prying eyes. That is why the compound was built.
If this is a lifesyle choice then I am sure you guys have no problem with allowing Sharia law into the US, too. The muslims can make the exact same arguement you are making here. It is coming. Wait and see.
sotl, guess who is paying the tab to educate the lost boys who were banished? You and me.
Are you familiar with this:
http://www.visionforum.com/
lin said:
If this is a lifesyle choice then I am sure you guys have no problem with allowing Sharia law into the US, too. The muslims can make the exact same arguement you are making here. It is coming. Wait and see.
*****
Lin,
LOL!! Let me assure you that if sharia law takes effect in this country, I will see the face of Jesus sooner, rather than later.
I would not last one hour under sharia law!!!
Thankfully, my husband's idea of submission is me telling him what to do!! hehe..
Also, I'm thinkin that those muslems would not approve of all the dancin i've been doin lately :)
And do they make those burka's with bling?
Just a thought while our eyes are shifted to Texas...
What about another cult, sitting right here in our backyard? The religion of Welfare. It was something else as intended, but look what it has become. I work with young people who are in trouble with the law, age 12-17. The females of that population especially seem to think nothing of spitting out babies like watermelon seeds. In fact, they see that profitable for them. Momma lives that way, Grandma did it too. And it really works for them, because that is the extent of their hope. The more babies, the more money. That's their future.
Our hope became realized on the third day. Their hope happens on the third day too. That's when the check comes.
Just another thought. Another very sad thought.
OK. Eyes back to Texas.
Guess who's paying the tab on that one? It's a whole lot bigger than the 'lost boys'.
"You are completely missing the point I have tried over and over to make. (And since I work for an umbrella school representing over 7,000 homeschool families, I sure I have a handle on homeschooling too) "
I'm sorry. I am not sure what point you were trying to make?
If anyone lacks understanding about the deep and long term effects of sexual abuse , please read Christa's latest post.
It sounds a little academic at times but I have never read such a thorough verbal understanding before.
It's so easy for those who have not experienced this... to tell others to get over it. Not easy to do.
When one is arguing against any perspective, one can sometimes still manage to display in themselves the characteristics which they themselves despise; and even during the midst of denying and disparaging, and maybe even denigrating that perspective; they may not even realize that they have actually been an accomplice to a mission to which they themselves deem disgusting. And so unwittingly they become one with what they really have been arguing against, and therefore actually end up arguing against themselves.
Not going to explain this. Those who need to know, know what I'm talking about.
oc.
You need a nap, OC.
"Those who need to know, know what I'm talking about."
I guess I don't need to know. :-)
gmommy. You may think so. But thank you for your advice.
Nass. Please see my email.
There are several very large Memphis churches that are doing actual work in the inner city, the poor areas and in the schools. The members I have talked to consider the interferrence by Bellevue as "token" gestures. T-shirts and commercials do not make an impact on the lifestyles of these people; neither does the emotionally and mentally scattered, unscriptural and scripturally incorrect messages that are coming forth from the pulpit.
Do you want to know what Memphis really thinks of Bellevue now? THIS VERY DAY, I heard it referred to as "PeeWee's Playhouse". Is it any wonder?
neither does the emotionally and mentally scattered, unscriptural and scripturally incorrect messages that are coming forth from the pulpit.
You're right redeemed....very sad.
And this also to you gmommy. Thanks for caring.
Your friend,
oc.
oc..I'm always confused...sorry.
It's ok friend. I love your heart, gmommy, He loves it too. Keep it tender.
The Christian Post says today at 'newsletter@christianpost.com' that "So. Baptists Now a Declining Denomination". Thom Rainer makes the announcement.
Is anybody shocked?
Even with all the hoop-lah, all the circus, all the dramas, all the gospel of the beatles, elvis, yada yada, all the carnival atmosphere, all the heavy metal concerts, all the trapeze artists...all the worldly entertainement can't save people; they are leaving. Only through the Son of God can mankind be saved...and man has chased the Holy Spirit out of our churches. Now, they are wondering what happened. False teaching produces false converts.
Steve Gaines made the speaking rounds last week, speaking at Criswell College and SWBTS. At least one of his sermons didn't exactly get rave reviews. I can't say I agree or disagree with his critics, as the whole subject of Calvinism makes my head swim.
You can listen to it yourself here.
Yes, IMA nailed it, all the the hoop-lah, all the circus, all the dramas, all the gospel of the beatles, elvis, yada yada, all the carnival atmosphere, all the heavy metal concerts, all the trapeze artists - this is not what I want. Hence, I have found a church with real scriptural sermons and beautiful, reverent music (and no, there are no drums or stages), it is such a wonderful blessing.
P/S to Gmommy - where have you been?????
Love to you all.
Lily A
I'm so embarrassed for the Baptists. Of ALL the "sermons" SG could have preached...WHY choose to preach such a lame sermon??
Lily,
I have continued to be a "reprobate". But thank you for missing me!!!
I'm in over my head!
Sotl, check out this link:
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/article_detail.cfm?AID=10397
And you will see some of my concerns about Patriarchy and how it is infesting the SBC. And how it is coming through a segment of the homeschooling movement and HSLD.
The presenter mentioned in this article is a good friend of mine. I was one of the people asked to edit her presentation and I can promise you she ONLY quoted Ware and Moore from their own work. She was censored for it.
This are just some things to watch out for. I know that more and more homeschoolers are distancing themselves from this kook fringe. Problem is, our leaders are joining it!
Be sure to read the background article.
"Cynthia Kunsman, a registered nurse who runs a Web site and blog focusing on spiritual abuse, was invited to lead a workshop critiquing 'biblical patriarchy' at a March 6-8 conference sponsored by Evangelical Ministries to New Religions."
Let me get this straight. She was "chastised" for doing exactly what she was invited to do. Huh? What's wrong with this picture?
Wade did a whole thread on this issue. I cannot believe how much the good ol boys...once considered "heroes" by many for their role in "CR" movement....are turning the clock backwards.
These men...and I have to include SG in this statement(especially considering his lame "sermon" at Criswell recently)...seem to have lost their intelligence,education,grasp and respect for Scripture, respect for people, and any dignity.
What ARE they so afraid of????
NO WONDER so many of the young people are leaving the Baptist church when they go to college.
Redeemer Presbyterian in Midtown is FULL of BBC,ECS... 20 and 30 something young couples.
One more thing...
do you think that at a solid church (such as River Oaks Presbyterian) they ever waste a sermon preaching against the way Baptist DON'T believe in the doctrines of grace like SG preached at Criswell???
NO!!!
There is so much deep wonderful things to teach about besides drinking a glass of wine or women not teaching men or the completely misrepresented view of what the reformed believe as SG did!(or tithing!)
These good ol boys remind me of a TV show that has run out of soap and need to be replaced.
Before I say anything ... I am NOT trying to re-ignite the Calvin vs. Arminian wars of a few months ago.
But just an observation. I have friends who live in N.E. Pennsylvania and attend a Baptist church that was planted several years ago by a group from Bob Jones University. I have visited there several times and have never, ever seen an invitation extended. I have been invited to sing in their services twice, but each time was asked to sing something "traditional" and not overly emotional. (I sneaked in a Lanny Wolf song, anyway ...)
The friend I visit there is saved, and I have no doubt about that. But her husband is lost, and she says there's nothing that can be done -- obviously he's not one of the elect. By the way, he's the only non-believing member of their family, and it is definitely no fun to be him most of the time. Their grandchildren tell him regularly how sad they will be when he doesn't go to heaven with them -- not to witness to him or evangelize him, but because they are being taught that he's not "predestined" for salvation.
These folks are also really big on little children (as young as 3) being saved. They don't ever push them to be baptized (as their church doesn't have a baptistry, so they either trek down over to a church that has one, or perhaps to a crick or a public pool about once a year, if anybody wants to be baptized). It's not uncommon for teenaged kids to be active in a church's youth group, and to profess that they were were saved when they were "3 or 4 or so" -- but to have never been baptized as the Lord commands. Never even really been taught that they should.
They also have a "we'll have to wait and see" approach to eternal security matters -- very little solid assurance of salvation, because that would be looking to works, but that God will reveal "in the end" who is elect and who is not.
I think maybe down here in the corn-fed South, we have a tendency to believe that everybody who calls themselves Baptist believes just like we do about the "big" things, and that's not necessarily true. Just because somebody gets their weekly bath on Saturday night and ends up on a Baptist pew doesn't necessarily mean that they have a real good grasp on the truth of the gospel.
Let me get this straight. She was "chastised" for doing exactly what she was invited to do. Huh? What's wrong with this picture?
8:10 AM, April 25, 2008
http://ethicsdaily.com/
Check this out...1st story. This is the second story they have done on this. Dallas Observer did one, too.
Ethics Daily connected some of the dots of patriarch teaching to the SBC.
Had the board reviewed her sources, they would have found the same thing
btw: she sent her presentation in for approval long before the conference. I know this because she sent me a copy, too, and I know the entire process she used.
It was approved. But the board, instead of being scholarly about this is censoring it. Why not check this out and present another view if she is wrong? She's not. They said what she said they said.
but this is how we deal with disagreement in the Baptist circles now. We attack a person's character. They accused Cindy of mischaracterizing Bruce Ware and Russell Moore. They had no problem with what she presented on Doug Phillips. Hmmmm.
It goes back to one person at the conference complained about her quoting Bruce Ware.
Nass, pretty amazing about Gaines' sermon. I am just amazed that these 'Bible' colleges/seminaries invite a man who has so little regard for scripture. He proved it in his dealings with his pedophile minister of prayer and his statement that 1 Tim 3 were only 'guidelines' for elders.
Funny how they ignore this and promote Gaines but are so legalistic about women 'roles'.
What does that tell us about SWBTS and Criswell?
"But her husband is lost, and she says there's nothing that can be done -- obviously he's not one of the elect."
Yikes. They can certainly pray and get out of the way of the Holy Spirit. Tell her to read 1 Peter. About wives whose husbands are not saved.
Lin Said:
Sotl, check out this link:
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/article_detail.cfm?AID=10397
And you will see some of my concerns about Patriarchy and how it is infesting the SBC. And how it is coming through a segment of the homeschooling movement and HSLD.
****
Lin, while i certainly apprecaite your knowledge and concern about the patriarch movement within homeschooling, the beauty of homeschooling is that WHATEVER those men think is not binding on ME or my family...It is only binding on any idiot that they can convince to their way of thinking.
They do not have the authority or the ability to pass laws that will affect how others choose to homeschool their families.
At the very worst, they will speak at a convention somewhere and some dumb little mama will come away thinking that her daughter does not need to go to college.
There ain't no cure for stupid.
I can promise you, though, that in the last 15 years, and being VERY involved in homeschooling, the subject of patriarch rule has not come up once, not even ONCE...of all the conventions, meetings, conversations I have had with other homeschoolers.
If these control freak men want to treat their daughters that way, that is their right as parents..But they are about 200 years out of touch, as my own grandfather, who would be 125 years old this July were he still alive, would take them on.
I have a friend who grew up in Bartlett (not homeschooled) and her parents told her all the time that she did not need to go to college becuase she was a girl...how very sad ...
sotl, just so you know, I am completely pro-homeschooling.
I am glad you have not experienced patriarchy. They usually do not call themselves that and would never advertise their beliefs to the masses at conventions. It does not sell books. Most of the people I know saw it over a period of time and usually associated with their church...most of the time churches that all homeschooled.
Somehow I dont see you falling for any of it. :o)
Maybejustmaybe: Thanks for that first hand account. I am a little familiar with Bob Jones and didn't know they operated that way. You make an excellent point....the term "Baptist" no longer means anything. Teaching varies not only from region of the country, but from corner to corner. Here in Memphis, I could attend 10 different Baptist churches and come away with 10 different cultures. It's that whole "autonomous" thing.
Which leads me to a question I have asked before.....what is the SBC for? If it's for missions, how can churches be comfortable with the fact that they have no idea which "type" of Baptist is going to be evangelized?
Just wondering out loud.
maybejustmaybe said:
I think maybe down here in the corn-fed South, we have a tendency to believe that everybody who calls themselves Baptist believes just like we do about the "big" things, and that's not necessarily true.
===================================
I just heard a recent message by
Dr. Gray Allison, "The Six Invitations Baptists Give." In that message, Dr. Gray says he has been shocked how many Baptist churches no longer give an invitaton. He said: "When the Gospel message is preached, people need the opportunity to respond to it publically."
There is an insidious erosion of the Word of God in our churches today. And there is a laziness and "tickle my ears" attitude among the congregants. What we need is a Holy Spirit annointed revival in our churches. God says:
"Judgment must BEGIN in the house of the Lord' (I Peter 4:17)
BTW, J. Vernon Maghee says the
"ELECT" is: " WHOSOEVER calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Acts 2:21) because "God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life"
(John 3:16)
I in fact think that "the autonomy of the local church" is still a good thing. I wouldn't want any organization shoving what I should or should not believe or what I should do or not do, down my throat. I do not want the SBC, the Vatican, Rev. Joe Blow nor anyone else interpret for me what God has said to me, and require me to live and abide by their interpretation. What I believe is a matter between my soul and the Holy Spirit, Who convicts me, teaches me, corrects me and comforts me, and Who came to remind me of Jesus' teachings. Jesus told me He would never leave me nor forsake me. When He told me that, it became VERY personal to me. It became a relationship, not a religion. That makes all the difference for me. So I study His love letter to me. All of it. Whether it makes me feel good or not, it is still love. Sometimes it's tender and sweet; sometimes it's comforting, sometimes it's confusing, and sometimes it hurts, and it's the rod to my backside, tough love. But from Genesis through Revelation, He wants the best for me. He has given it, and still gives it. And there is no convention, nor board of directors, no pastor, no elder, no deacon, nor any human hierarchy nor anyone else or anything to which I am willing to entrust my soul to. In the end, responsibility for my progress in my sanctification is between myself and the Lord. It is about my willingness to learn at the feet of the Master. If I lack, I can blame no one else for that but myself.
So even if Pastor Joe preaches in error, my soul will know it and reject it. Even if the SBC or the pope or Rev. SO and SO says 'believe this, believe that', and it contradicts the Word, and thus so the Spirit, my soul shall know it, and reject it.
So there is no fear for myself in what others teach and believe. Fear is not for the redeemed; the fear that I feel is for the unsaved who may believe lies and not come to know the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and so end up living eternity in Hell. That's where we come in as ambassodors for Christ. So, evangelism is my responsibility.
I still don't think it is bad to be a "Baptist". But I really don't care about that label. I really don't have to be a Southern Baptist, or a even a Baptist at all. I think being a Christian is much more important. Even so, something is going on these days. Maybe Southern Baptists are getting distracted by the devil. We are spending a whole lot of time on introspection, inside; what's wrong with this, what's wrong with that; who's "liberal", who's "conservative", who's a Calvinist, who's not; who's this, who's that; working real hard to label each other, all the while lost people are dying without Christ. Often we spend much time in the barn, arguing with ourselves, while the fields are still white for harvest. We argue about the beliefs of the fellow harvesters, and how we don't want to work along side them because they don't completely agree with us, and we argue about how best to cut the grain, and we even argue about the best way to get to the field.
Yet all along, the harvest rots.
I know I have rambled again. But I just needed to get some stuff out. We can complain about our denomination. We can complain about the convention, national and otherwise. We can complain about our church, our pastor, our deacons, or SS teachers, etc.
God is not going to judge me for those things. He is going to want an accounting for what I've done with what I've had, not what I think they had and what they should have done.
The bottom line is this. Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus? If so, are you living true to Him? It's not as complicated as you think. And you don't need to know Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek; Calvinism, Arminianism, nor any other stinkinism, nor even systematic theology etc etc etc.
You don't even have to know "church language". You only have to trust Him. Sometimes we make it so complicated. We like to sound so spiritually and scripturally superior, that we tend avoid John 3:16.
And brothers and sisters:
Don't make your deep relationship with Christ a stumbling block to those who are new in the Lord.
Sometimes one can be overwhelmed and intimidated by the deeper things of the Lord. Remember?
Be easy, and use compassion.
Ramblin on.
oc.
Amen, oc!
Whatever your position on the subject, if you really want to set your head spinning, read the 7-part series here.
"EZ" made this comment in the last one. I found it quite relevant and kind of chilling.
ezekiel said...
Reading Micah 2 this morning I was amazed at how it fits what we have been discussing lately.
1 Woe to those who devise wickedness and work evil on their beds! When the morning dawns, they perform it, because it is in the power of their hand.
2 They covet fields and seize them, and houses, and take them away; they oppress a man and his house, a man and his inheritance.
This to me, sounds an awful lot like what we see happening in the SBC these days. Can we call what goes on behind all these close doors "devising evil"? They certainly have the power, and the oppression is certainly evident.
3 Therefore thus says the Lord: behold, against this family I am devising disaster, from which you cannot remove your necks, and you shall not walk haughtily, for it will be a time of disaster.
4 In that day they shall take up a taunt song against you and moan bitterly, and say, We are utterly ruined; he changes the portion of my people; how he removes it from me! To an apostate he allots our fields.
Wow, this sounds quite ominous. It would make me think long before I was a willing partner to it. Any one else willing to look at the state of the churches today and honestly say that they appear to be on a slide into apostacy?
5 Therefore you will have none to cast the line by lot in the assembly of the Lord.
6 Do not preach — thus they preach — one should not preach of such things; disgrace will not overtake us.
I can almost guarantee that someone will pop up and say this is fulfilled prophecy and does not apply to us.
7 Should this be said, O house of Jacob? Has the Lord grown impatient? Are these his deeds? Do not my words do good to him who walks uprightly?
8 But lately my people have risen up as an enemy; you strip the rich robe from those who pass by trustingly with no thought of war.
9 The women of my people you drive out from their delightful houses; from their young children you take away my splendor forever.
By driving women out of our little playhouse, we taint forever her outlook and view of our religion, and in doing so, compel her children, our children, to turn away from something meant to free them from slavery to sin. A bunch of preachers these days talking up child birth, birth rates and replacement for all those we are losing.
I can tell you though, you will never be able to breed enough to maintain your numbers if the ones you are breeding are being turned away from the very institution that you are trying to preserve. She spends more time with your children than you do. Do you really want to tell her she can't teach, can't minister?
Splendor? Heck it is hard to even get them to go to church when you consistently tell them they don't belong or that they don't have the status you do.
10 Arise and go, for this is no place to rest, because of uncleanness that destroys with a grievous destruction.
11 If a man should go about and utter wind and lies, saying, I will preach to you of wine and strong drink, he would be the preacher for this people!
Is this current or what?
12 I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob; I will gather the remnant of Israel; I will set them together like sheep in a fold, like a flock in its pasture, a noisy multitude of men.
13 He who opens the breach goes up before them; they break through and pass the gate, going out by it. Their king passes on before them, the Lord at their head.
Hope that eventually, there will be enough men to see what is happening and have the guts to stand against it.
Sat Apr 26, 12:48:00 PM 2008
Thanks for the reminder, OC. It is easy to get snarled in the current happenings and lose sight with the big picture. And while I still am disenchanted, I still must share the gospel wherever I go.
I hope that you don't mind my posting a prayer request. I am the sister of Diana Hart. I have started a prayer chain for Jason Castro, a contestant on American Idol.
Cover Jason In Prayer
http://www.americanidol.com/myidol/forums/topic/index.xhtml
?tid=918193&fid=150&page=1
This young man is a member of Lake Pointe Church in Rockwall,TX, Pastor Steve Stroope. He openly confesses to being a Christian, asks his church and fans for prayers for an athiest/agnostic contestant on AI, prayer for David Cook and his brother Adam who has brain cancer, and for himself for strength. One night he chose to sing the song "Travelin' Thru" by Dolly Parton, and he boldly chose to sing the part of the song that talks about the crucifixion, redemption and being born again. He sang it with great conviction. I was blown away. How refreshing in day and age when some pastors won't speak of these things in their own churches, that this unassuming young man would sing of these things to millions of people around the world.
On the idol gives back week, the song "Shout to the Lord" was sung twice. Reportedly, Jason encouraged some of the other contestant who were balking about the song.
From many things that I have seen posted on Jason Castro's threads, it is obvious to me that God is using this young man to bring people to Him. People see that he is different, and they express interest in what makes him different. I believe that the mission field will come to Lake Pointe Church. My concern is that after viewing several sermons, it is obvious that the church has no formal invitation. The church provides a response form in the bulletin to request information about the church and becoming a Christian. I sent an e-mail to them to encourage the ministers of the church to either add a presentation of the plan of salvation and sample prayer to the end of the message or provide a link to it. Since that time, a response form has been added to the website. The pastor mentions it at the end of the service. Those that complete the form or send e-mail will be sent a CD entitled "Overcoming Worry".I do not believe that this is enough. Some will fill out the form, but many do not want to give out personal information and young people are usually forbidden by their parents to provide this information.
Please pray for the work that God is doing on AI, for Jason Castro, and for Lake Pointe Church. I would hate for even one person seeking Christ to go away without discovering how to accept Christ as his or her Savior.
Why has God chosen to use this season of AI to spread his name around the world? I don't know. I just have a feeling that this is really big. If you have any doubts visit some of the threads on Jason Castro's forum. Yes, many of them are silly but on some you will find people seeking Christ.
Thank you. I hope that no one minds me posting this here. I know what powerful prayer warriors many of you are.
I forgot last night to thank Mom4 for her prayers.
http://thatmom.wordpress.com/2008/04/28/texas-cults-behavior-and-implications-for-homeschoolers/
sotl, above is a link to an article by a long time homeschooling mom (6 kids) that I have come to know, about the FLDS raid. She explains much better than I the concerns.
Okey dokey then...I'm going to ramble on again...
Looking at the original post...something has been bothering me since the beginning of this thread...
Why is Thomas The Tank Engine hanging underneath Steve's image?
Why should Thomas be subordinate to Steve? Any good reason for that?
I'm sure there is some kind of cryptic message in that.
But seriously, any real pastor, with a heart for the sheep; no matter how big or small the church is, should have some heart-felt sense of Jesus' teachings. That pastor should know and should be living and showing at least the basics of Christ's teaching.
When one allows the posting of his image on a billboard, like he's some kind of celebrity; not to mention his name bigger than the church's name, and letting Scripture (and those being 'spliced'),being mistaken for his own words...well that says much for that person's character, in my opinion. At least a lack of humility, for instance.
How can anyone go through so much theological training, even to the point of being a Phd, and yet express the Lord's heart so little?
Well, all that education may be the root of the trouble. Some get enamored in their own "great learning", gain much esteem,and thus lose the "message".
But it's hard for me to believe that one could go through all that fancy religious education, yet never study the Beatitudes. And if he did, it seems it didn't take. Well, maybe it did, in his head, but that 18 inches from the head to the heart can be a long trek.
It may be a matter of misplaced trust. Trust in self, trust in education. Trust in experience. I have seen that many times. It makes hearts to harden. Both for himself, and for those whom he teaches.
One who comes from that perspective does the Lord no favors. When the shepherd is arrogant, the sheep will suffer. The sheep trust that the shepherd will protect them with the truth.
When the shepherd is instead interested in promoting himself instead of the Lord, he neglects the sheep.
And misplaced trust makes for great disappointment. And disappointment tends to harden hearts. And the hardened heart needs to be broken in order to listen again to the real Shepherd's heart.
Who can break us down and churn the fallow ground of our hearts?
No teacher, no preacher, not even our own loved ones can turn our hearts around, and thus turn our "world upside down" where it needs to be. Someone Else has to do it. But we have to be willing to die to ourselves in order for Him to do it. Yes, even those of great education, even those who are "doctors of theology", or whatever, can't do it for us, though many, both on the giving and receiving end of that great education, may think they have that power. They are wrong. I trust that we all know Who to go to for that.
I think many trust too much in a pastor, deacon, teacher, etc. While these people are to assist us along the way, and I love them for it; my sanctification cannot be left to such uncertain means. Sanctification is the responsibility of me and the One who saved me. Who can I really trust to teach me?
The Holy Spirit has always been, and still is, the only Teacher who can do so. He teaches me the
Word, He reminds me of the teachings of Jesus, Who has shown me the Father, and through Whom is the only way to the Father.
I know, I doing it again. I'm ramblin on. But I am so tired of hearing arguments about Calvinism, Arminiumism, Dispensationalism, Pre-millenialism, Post-millenialism,
Amillenianism, this-ism, that-ism, yada yada yada-ism, (not here, but elsewhere)that I just needed to talk about something else. Trust in anyone or anything other than the Lord is meaningless. My personal system of theology won't get me or anyone else saved. I'm trusting the Lord to do that.
We all holler about a "personal relationship with Christ". So with all these "isms", I think when it comes down to it... it's "me-ism and "Jesus-ism", and then I give it to my "neighbor-ism". Gets no more personal than that. And if you want, I will travel with you along the road of our relationship with the One we both love, and help you the best I can, if indeed I can. I need your help too.
And I promise that along that road, you won't see my face on any billboard.
(some of you are applauding).
Ramblin on again.
oc.
"But I am so tired of hearing arguments about Calvinism, Arminiumism, Dispensationalism, Pre-millenialism, Post-millenialism, Amillenianism, this-ism, that-ism, yada yada yada-ism, (not here, but elsewhere)that I just needed to talk about something else."
Funny, I've been thinking the same thing. When you have to have a dictionary handy to be able to even halfway understand what some of these seminary-trained "intellectuals" are talking about... it's time to change the subject. I think most of them do it just to impress each other. Oh, and you left out "liberalism." That's their ultimate insult. "I don't agree with you; therefore, you're a librul." Whatever.
"And I promise that along that road, you won't see my face on any billboard.
(some of you are applauding)."
Sorry. Were we that loud? :-)
Yeah. The applause was plenty loud. And the cheering was a little much. But then the party afterwards, especially when I wasn't invited, well...
OK, now that's been 15 minutes and the applause has died, and my feelings have recovered...somewhat...
NASS...
Generally,
Those "seminary trained intellectuals" are not any more intelligent than you nor I, they just talk a different language...one that has often been drilled and indoctrinated into them. And they are excited to speak it, because they believe they have new truth that no one else has. They don't know that what they have learned is nothing new, and it is only new to them. So they come out of the institution speaking what they think is something new which they have learned, to many people who have already known these things long before they were ever born, and all of God's children are supposed to be amazed with the so called new-found revelations which come forth from these supposed Super Christians.
It's their illusion.
They know God no more than we do.
They learn much "about" Him. We have the same opportunity, that's easy enough. But to to go beyond what I know about Him, to knowing Him, well, that is a much different.
I'll say it again. They know God no more than you do. Maybe less. I'm starting to think theological institutions are hurting the cause of Christ.
Just another opinion.
oc.
PS. If you want to change the time of worship from 10 to 10:15, you may be a "librul". But if you would allow a woman to lead in prayer in co-ed Sunday School, well... that's it. You have definitely crossed the line there.
I hope there are enough of us liberal Baptists willing to pray your tail out of purgatory! :)
if anyone thinks the "sermon" SG gave recently about "Calvanism" was intellectual or educated....that would be scary!!!
I GO to the kind of church that is suppose to teach all those awful things SG and some others talk about...they don't do it!
The Baptist talk bad about them but they don't talk bad about the Baptist....quite the opposite in fact!
IF someone is going to talk abot what someone else believes and teaches...they at least should be informed and edcated on what they teach.
SG said nothing remotely close to the actual teaching. He really made himself look silly...in my opinion.
I'm in agreement about needing a dictionary to follow along...
but what difference does it make how many big terms you know if you aren't obedient to the essentials!!!
If Baptists would get off of drinking and beating women down and tithing and teach the Word with integrity....hearts would be changed and lives and habits would change.....IMO.
I am not sure how much of the problems mentioned are the fault of the education level achieved. It is more a reflection of the heart of the individual.
There are people who are highly educated who are jerks. There are people who never finished first grade who are jerks. Just as there are people with 10 PhD's who are the kindest, gentlest, nicest people you could meet. And people who have never completed high school who you are blessed to have the opportunity to know.
Education or lack thereof does not determine worth or merit.
gmommy said...
If Baptists would get off of drinking and beating women down and tithing and teach the Word with integrity....hearts would be changed and lives and habits would change.....IMO.
9:28 PM, April 28, 2008
Come to think of it...with so much stuff Baptists are against....couldn't it be said that the Baptists are the PHARASEES?
I don't think anyone is suggesting that a higher education somehow changes the hearts of some pastors for the worse. You're correct that one's educational level does not reflect one's heart at all.
What we're talking about are some of the blowhards on blogs like this one who, rather than discuss the issues, seem to be trying to impress each other with their seminarial vocabularies. (Yes, I know "seminarial" isn't a word. I made it up.)
Bkwormgirl,
Exactly. That's what is important. The heart. Not the education.
Thanks for bringing it out better than I did.
Broad sweeping strokes
They...
Baptists...
Seminarians...
"They" sound like some really proud, blind pharisees. Sounds like they all came out of the same horrible box.
I know quite a few of them and they are just people. They profess Christ and want to serve Him and most are no doubt as hurt as any christian when some pastor or seminarian is rude, proud, insensitive, etc.
Knowledge can puff up... in any field.
That's because the flesh likes attention.
Without the love of God (1 Cor. 13), the quest for knowledge is self-serving.
However, ignorance doesn't help someone get closer to the Lord either. When it comes to a heart surgeon--give me one that went to medical school please.
When it comes to spiritual things, a good seminary provides training to help the student learn the Word of God and teaches them to magnify the Lord and bring glory to the Lord Jesus--not themself. What the student does with the training obviously varies.
And that is just it. There have always been those who represent Christ well and those who do not--in the pew and in the pulpit. There have always been false and true prophets. There is nothing new under the sun in that regard.
Is spiritual pride an issue for all of us?
Yes. Seminary doesn't change that.
We are a priesthood of believers that should love one another--as individuals--with the patient, consistent love of God.
Re the Texas FLDS case from FOXNews:
"Of the 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 who are in state custody, 31 either have given birth or are expecting.
"Under Texas law, children under the age of 17 generally cannot consent to sex with an adult. A girl can get married with parental permission at 16, but none of these girls is believed to have a legal marriage."
RKK,
Broad sweeping strokes?
I see by your profile that you are a professor, among other things, at MABTS. Good. I wanted to ask someone there about this...
"Regulation Regarding Divorce
The Seminary does not admit as a student anyone who has ever been divorced or whose spouse has ever been divorced. This applies without exception both to those who are “innocent parties” of divorce and to others. Such a policy does not judge the manner of life of any divorced person. The regulation, however, is established as a witness to God’s original intention for the lifelong covenant of marriage. Matthew 5:32; 19:3-9; Mark 10:5-9; Luke 16:18; and Malachi 2:16 are the primary biblical passages that support this understanding."
I really get a kick out of that phrase, "God's original intention". Well, it wasn't God's original intention for us to sin at all. So if my sin is "divorce", even though I was the "innocent party",
and that keeps me from attending your theological institution, how does your sin allow you to continue to teaching and ministering? Is my "sin" worse that yours?
And how can someone else's sin be considered mine? If that is the case, here you go, I will let you have mine. And in doing so, I guess I have taken away your chance for further education and ministry in that field. How do you think that feels?
Talk about "broad sweeping strokes".
And here is another stroke.
"Regulations Regarding Women Students
The Seminary admits women as students to study only for the Master of Missiology or any degree in the Christian Education program. These programs are designed to prepare students for ministries in Christian education, counseling, or cross-cultural missions. Degree programs designed to prepare students to serve as ordained pastors (Associate of Divinity, Master of Divinity, Doctor of Ministry, Doctor of Philosophy) are available only to male students. This policy accords with the Seminary’s conviction that the ordained pastor of a church must be male. Scriptural support is found in Gen. 2:3; 1 Cor. 11:33 ff; and 1 Tim. 2:9-15."
They.
Divorced.
Women.
Broad sweeping strokes.
rkk said...
When it comes to a heart surgeon--give me one that went to medical school please.
Or a cankle surgeon. O, where are you when we need you, Dr. Loney?
But in all seriousness, of course Dr. Kilpatrick (rkk) is right -- ignorance is no more "spiritual" than education, and neither can substitute for the love of God. I know all too well from personal experience how easy it is to substitute knowledge and external conformity to rules and religious standards for The Holy Spirit and internal intimacy with Christ Jesus. But we can all do that whether we know the difference between supralapsarianism and sublapsarianism or not.
oc,
Your frustration is understandable, but Dr. K didn't create the MABTS policies regarding divorce and female students. Those policies were in place long before he joined the faculty there (actually even before he was out of high school). He may or may not fully agree with the policies you disagree with, but even if he does I'm sure it is out of a sincere desire to honor God to the best of his understanding of His Word. You should meet him sometime; you'd like him. And given that he's a brilliant scholar of biblical languages, you'd also be pleasantly surprised at how humble he really is.
RKK wrote:
"There have always been those who represent Christ well and those who do not--in the pew and in the pulpit. There have always been false and true prophets. There is nothing new under the sun in that regard."
So true.
"We are a priesthood of believers that should love one another--as individuals--with the patient, consistent love of God."
Sage advice. The one thing I know about "RKK" is that even if we disagree about something, he will express that disagreement with grace and respect, and that's a lesson we would all do well to review... daily.
When it comes to spiritual things, a good seminary provides training to help the student learn the Word of God and teaches them to magnify the Lord and bring glory to the Lord Jesus--not themself. What the student does with the training obviously varies.
I sat with my DH in an Old Testament class Dr. K taught at BBC years and years ago. I am no closer to understanding my class notes now than I was then. However, I understand my Bible better because of his class!
And that is just it. There have always been those who represent Christ well and those who do not--in the pew and in the pulpit. There have always been false and true prophets. There is nothing new under the sun in that regard.
I thank God for the men of MABTS who represent Christ well. I thank God for someone I know who is not called to seminary but has been called by God to preach and teach His Word.
We are a priesthood of believers that should love one another--as individuals--with the patient, consistent love of God.
Thank you for addressing our broad strokes like a gentleman, and for loving us anyway.
oc, I'll e-mail you later about the questions you raised. I know you weren't askin' me, but I have an answer for you anyway. You're my friend, so I get to quietly preach at you, right? :o)
rkk, Do you have any words of encouragement for children who have a new step-father who, now that their Mother is dead, doesn't want the children in the home anymore? It really does feel like that. :o(
I'm sorry if I have been rude and confrontational. I have let personal circumstances and lots of frustration get the best of me, and thus I vented on the innocent. I acknowlege my wrong in doing so and ask forgiveness from you Dr. K.
Sometimes I lose my bearings and forget we are on the same team. Love you brother. Please pray for my lack.
"oc, I'll e-mail you later about the questions you raised. I know you weren't askin' me, but I have an answer for you anyway. You're my friend, so I get to quietly preach at you, right? :o)"
No. Not AT me. But TO me. We get to preach to each other, don't we?. Yeah, I reckon I'm due for one of your sermons, my friend.
Lay it on me sister. My heart happens to be open and bleeding tonight. It's a good time for it.
There is more than one Baptist seminary, and I know that most if not all of the six Southern Baptist seminaries review applicants for admission who have divorce in their histories on a case by case basis. There is also the option of the Seminary Extension of the Southern Baptist seminaries, which is a program of correspondence courses designed for those who are unable to attend at a seminary campus. There is more than one way to "skin a cat" as they say, so if one desires a seminary type education, there are options.
As Dr. K rightly pointed out, knowledge can puff up in any field...in fact one can be puffed up over a lack of education. I know of one young pastor who refused to attend seminary on the basis that, as he put it, "I just don't think I need that". However his frequent butchery of the Scriptures would indicate otherwise. Calling and gifting are by far the more important issues for pastors/teachers, however the care of souls is serious business, and one cannot teach what they do not know. I thank God for those who spend the time and resources to study to show themselves approved.
As for pastors or theologians using all the big words....if you were listening in on a conversation among a group of doctors and nurses and they were speaking in medical terminology, would you consider them to be showing off?...or just speaking to each other in the common language of their professions? When fellow pastors/theologians engage one another in discussion or debate, they speak the language of their field. Whether one or all are just showing off is debatable...unless you can see into their hearts and know their motives. Theologians speaking in theological language doesn't in and of itself constitute being puffed up.
OC,
Hebrews 12:11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. 12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled;
Bro, I share this with you not out of a spirit of condemnation but love. My beam is a lot bigger than your mote and I find this scripture helpful in tamping down my anger and frustration.
Notice, I said helpful. We can discuss effectiveness later.
Peace
This was a comment posted on the FBCJax blog today. Substitute "Steve Gaines" for "Mac Brunson" and suddenly it's very relevant for Memphis.
Anonymous said...
I have been reading this blog on and off for some time now and would like to share a few observations. I do have a past with FBC as I was a member there from the early 80’s until around 2003. So, my thoughts are based on actual experience.
First, there is no such thing as a perfect church or a perfect pastor. FBC is not a perfect church nor has it ever had a perfect pastor. As one of the former pastor’s used to comment, “If you ever find a perfect church, please don’t join it because you will ruin it.”
It seems that in a lot of churches, the congregation has the tendency to elevate their pastor (and sometimes even the associate pastors and staff) beyond the level of respect. Congregations can view their pastor almost as a god-like figure who can do no wrong. And when that happens, anyone who dares criticize the pastor is looked down on and treated as a traitor.
Pastors aren’t very good about staying humble. I have yet to see any pastor of a large church or a mega-church that did not have a large ego. You simply cannot attain the position of senior pastor of a big church without having a large ego. I don’t think this is unexpected when you keep in mind that most of these pastors are in the career building business. When have you ever seen a mega church pastor leave his post and take a small country church? I am sure someone, somewhere has, but by and large, a pastor will only leave a church to either move to a church of equal or larger size, or to retire and take speaking gigs around the country and on cruises, or to die.
One of the side effects of treating a particular pastor as god-like is that no one can live up to the perceived image that we have of the former pastor. When the new guy comes to town, he is going to change things. He will change staff, he will change the worship service, he will change the music, he will change the focus of the church, etc, etc. All of this is done to suit his way of doing things. (Some preachers are so bold as to call this his “vision”.) And the people of the church will say things like “well, we never did it like that before.” Or, “the music is too loud.”
One of the most frustrating things for me was to hear over and over from the pulpit that I am a “God called preacher, not a mama called preacher.” What chutzpah! Did he have a divine revelation like Paul did on the road to Damascus? Did a dove come down from heaven? Did the St. Johns River part and there was dry land with a path to 124 West Ashley Street? When a pastor asserts repeatedly that he is God’s man for this or that church, he builds up his own ego and he tends to convince more and more of the congregation that he is there because God looked high and low over all the earth and he was the only man found worthy to pastor this church.
You will do yourself a huge favor if you will keep in mind that being a pastor is a career opportunity, just like being a doctor, a lawyer, a teacher, a computer programmer, or a bus driver. Absolutely we should treat the pastor with respect, just like we should treat everyone we work with and for with respect. But he is a man, no better or worse that you and I, and no more divine than you or I.
Mac Brunson may not have known what his exact salary or benefits package was going to be, but he certainly knew what to expect. No church of the size of FBC Jacksonville would call a pastor and expect to pay him less than he is currently being paid. He will get a sizable raise. And, if he leaves FBC to go to another church, he will get an ever bigger salary.
When you become the pastor of a very big church, there are very big perks that come with it. Just like in the private sector. The typical career path of a successful business man leads to a bigger salary, bigger house, better cars, and on and on.
All of this became crystal clear when I left FBC and joined a much smaller church. For once I saw what it was to have a pastor with a true servant’s heart. For once I had the blessing of knowing my pastor personally. And I know exactly what his salary is because it is published in the yearly budget as a specific line item and not lumped together with all of the staff salaries. Transparency is a beautiful thing.
Keep the faith!
May 1, 2008 9:09 AM
Nass: I couldn't agree more. Mega churches have changed pastors from being called to being career. It's a big red flag as far as I am concerned.
Hey everyone,
I was confused about the Twin Rivers or Two Rivers church concerning a sex scandal.
I apologize. I would delete and repost without that one comment but there is no garbage can on my post to allow me to delete it...maybe Nass can.
Nass is quick!
...here is my post minus the information I was confused about. Again, I apologize.
On Christa Brown's blog we see another story that could be about BBC.
Some "trouble makers" ...looking more like senior citizens....were calling for accountability and transparency.
But it's always reported to be just a few "disgruntled people" that want "control".
Can't any of these corrupt leaderships be original and creative!!!!!
Is Lifeway putting out the scripts for these so called churches????
(too tired to bang my head against something...)
Oh, no, Mr. (or Ms.) 9:08 p.m. You're not going to blast us one minute, demand an apology, which you got, and then delete your ugly comment and retreat back to your hole without another word. This is the post to which I'm about to reply:
dos rios said...
The problem at Two Rivers (not 'Twin' Rivers) Baptist Church is due to a group of members who are upset that their voices don't override that of the pastor. Their goal is to use the internet to spread their dissention far and wide to undermine the office to which we called Dr. Sutton to fill.
Their ultimate goal is to have a church with no authority structure so that they can do whatever they want without consequences. They want to return to the days of the Judges, in which "Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit."
And speaking of doing whatever we see fit, kindly enlighten us about the 'sexual scandals' at Two Rivers, please. At their worst, the dissenters have not stooped to spreading ugly lies about the administration. What gives you the right to tell bald faced lies about us? Do you enjoy kicking people when they are down? When you see someone in trouble, do you really enjoy spreading unfounded, perverted gossip about them???
I'd make up a few lies about your own church to retaliate, but it seems you've already done that for me.
There is no sexual scandal at TRBC, and I'd expect a full withdrawal of this deliberate and malicious lie, and a humble apology from a Christian.
From a Christian, that is.
Repent from this lie, and it might be the beginning of a trend. God will bless your humility.
9:08 PM, May 01, 2008
"The problem at Two Rivers (not 'Twin' Rivers) Baptist Church is due to a group of members who are upset that their voices don't override that of the pastor. Their goal is to use the internet to spread their dissention far and wide to undermine the office to which we called Dr. Sutton to fill."
Really?
"Their ultimate goal is to have a church with no authority structure so that they can do whatever they want without consequences. They want to return to the days of the Judges, in which 'Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit.'"
And exactly how do you get that from this?
"And speaking of doing whatever we see fit, kindly enlighten us about the 'sexual scandals' at Two Rivers, please. At their worst, the dissenters have not stooped to spreading ugly lies about the administration. What gives you the right to tell bald faced lies about us? Do you enjoy kicking people when they are down? When you see someone in trouble, do you really enjoy spreading unfounded, perverted gossip about them???"
As "gmommy" just stated, she was mistaken. It's gotten to be such a common occurrence these days that she was probably confused over the name. Or maybe because there was a story about Two Rivers here. Since, as its name implies, this site normally deals with issues of sexual "scandals" in Baptist churches, if one didn't read the whole post, one might assume (wrongly) that such was the case here.
I apologize for not screening that comment more closely. At the time I published it I had not read the above-mentioned blog post and would have made the same (wrong) assumption.
"I'd make up a few lies about your own church to retaliate, but it seems you've already done that for me."
Cute.
"There is no sexual scandal at TRBC, and I'd expect a full withdrawal of this deliberate and malicious lie, and a humble apology from a Christian."
Done. Fully withdrawn and apologized for.
"From a Christian, that is."
Oh, boy. I should have seen that coming. Whatever....
"Repent from this lie, and it might be the beginning of a trend. God will bless your humilvity."
One can repent only from something one is willfully doing. Since "gmommy's" posting of unfounded information was not deliberate... guess what? She can't repent of it!
Re the "Connect 3on3" basketball tournament scheduled for Saturday at the church...
Has anyone heard that this event has been cancelled? I don't know that it has. I just heard it might have been.
From the full-page ad in the May/June Bellevue Messenger it's touted as "A Bellevue Lo♥es Memphis Event."
One would think that if Bellevue really lo♥ed Memphis they wouldn't be charging $60.00 per team!
Also from the ad...
HOT SHOT COMPETITION
5 Registered Players Will Have A Chance To Win $10,000.
Let me get this straight. People have to pay to enter, and they're going to give away $10,000 to the "winner." How is this any different from gambling? That really is basically what it is. Can someone explain to me how this is any different from holding bingo games in the Family Life Center? Or someone buying a lottery ticket? (SG preaches against that one a lot, and no, I've never bought a lottery ticket nor will I.) What's the difference? They're playing a game that people have to pay to play, and they're paying the money collected to the winner. Honestly, I see NO difference whatsoever.
"They're playing a game that people have to pay to play, and they're paying the money collected to the winner. Honestly, I see NO difference whatsoever."
You are exactly right. There is no difference.
Maybe it was cancelled...if it was...because someone left in leadership recalled that people bet on sports games much the same way. I don't know the details (never do)but for the Tigers game...there was some sort of chart and people put down a certain amont of money and won or lost something after the game.
Of course BBC would come up with something worldly....that's been the practice for a while now.
Looks like "gmommy" wasn't imagining what she wrote last night after all. She probably read it here.
Or maybe it was here.
Or here.
An internal investigation, like the one done at Bellevue regarding the PW situation, "proved" the allegations to be unfounded. Maybe they are. Maybe it's just a disgruntled former church staffer, but a proper investigation of a matter like this isn't a "DIY" job.
BTW.....from the Aug. 14th Associated Press article...
"One of Sutton's former administrative assistants has also said Sutton looked at pornography on his church computer and had an affair with a church staff member _ charges that the church denies. The church's executive pastor, Scott Hutchings, said human resource officials at the church investigated those charges and found no evidence that Sutton had looked at porn or had an affair."
No more has been said about this BUT at least I understand where my "confusion " came from last night. I did call the church Twin Rivers instead of Two....definitely confused there!
With so many churches swirling with headlines and inappropriate behavior...and always blaming a "few disgruntled people that want control"....hard to keep up!!!!
Whether that was true or not ...it was in an article I had read so not only was it not "deliberate or malicious"....I didn't pull it from the sky.
There is enough these mega ministers do to keep us questioning. No one has to or wants to make anything up.
If many of the mega ministers would step off their authority power trips and humble themselves and become servants instead of rich dictators.....
and be "above reproach"....there wouldn't be the articles and blogs discussing them.
Please note I said MEGA ministers...
there are plenty humble true servant pastors out there.
They are so busy ministering and teaching the WORD...they don't get the press the megas get...imagine that!
Thanks Nass..I think our posts crossed in cyber space ..yours was better!!!!
With regard to the three on three tournament (which for the record I think is in very poor taste for a church to host) I don't view it as gambling. It will require a team to work and to be skillful to win in the tournament. It is not exactly the same as gambling because it is not like they are just buying a ticket and hoping for their number to come up.
As a side note. The town that I grew up in has been doing this type of tournament for almost two decades. I wonder if BBC is prepared for the variety of problems that come with such a tournament, it draws in some really undesirable people and situations.
Have you seen some of those hardcore bingo addicts at play? It could sometimes be considered a contact sport!
Lol Nass - you do raise a valid point.
Here is the link to the 3 on 3 tournaments I was thinking of. http://www.macker.com/ I can see BBC having a little mascot. The BibleBall I a Bible shaped mascot with "God Loves Memphis" scrolled on it... beautiful.
"I can see BBC having a little mascot. The BibleBall I a Bible shaped mascot with 'God Loves Memphis' scrolled on it... beautiful."
I would have thought something more along the lines of a wolf wielding a club.
Pray tell Nass - why would BBC choose honesty in advertising at this point? Has something changed?
How about something that really represents?
Maybe something like a bloody sheep?
I should have said a "bloodied and beaten" sheep.
Guess that would make the gym floor a little slippery. OK, probably not a good idea.
Just a question about this basketball tournament thing...
Is the Gospel going to be presented to the all the players?
I guess I want to know, in my SA (smart aleck) kinda way, does the 60 bucks include the Gospel?
Either way, there is a problem.
Yes it has been canceled. Check their web site and Memphis is blacked out. here
There are at least a couple of reasons given, lack of registrations, bad weather , but of course the main reason is not admitted.
I thought it might have been blacked out because the registration deadline of 8:00 a.m. yesterday had passed.
There's no announcement about it being cancelled on Bellevue's website.
And there's this.
Note this location's information which is also for May 3rd
here
"There are at least a couple of reasons given, lack of registrations, bad weather , but of course the main reason is not admitted."
'Splain, please?
Maybe God decided not to show up.
Oh, wait a minute. He probably wasn't invited anyway. My bad.
oc.
I went to gopher's link and found these on the Event Info for the May 3 Cool Springs 3on3 event:
$10,000 Hot $hot
This year’s competition is for $10,000! Five eligible tournament players will be randomly selected to participate. The competition will be held after lunch.
But... under "Schedule" it says this:
12:15 pm - $1,000 Hot $hot Competition
Now, which is it? $1,000 or $10,000?!?
Lying awake at 1:15 in the morning wondering about that, Lizzie? :-)
Wow. Lizzie's heart orientated towards God at 1:15 am. I think she is contemplating the things of God, and is asking Him what next? And God bless her. I wish I was like her. I want to be like her. I want my relationship with my Father to be that close. It is something that she has allowed,and cultivated, and she surely has been asking the Father for it in her lonely times before now. I sure love her attitude. I want that attitude too.
oc.
I was thinking again today about this billboard. And the tragic irony of it all. When a person identifies themselves as a pastor, instantly there is a burden that is placed upon them. While there are some who expect a pastor to be perfect, the reality is no person is perfect, but it is reasonable expectation (mandated by scripture) for a pastor to be above reproach. I was thinking of the love is kind part of this billboard. In my life I would guess I have had regular contact with over 50 pastors in my life. Of all of those, there are only 2 that I feel have truly reflected the face of God. They were kind, their heart was kind, and even when I messed up horribly, they were kind while pointing me back to the path I was supposed to take. Now, I realize maybe my perspective is messed up. But if my life experience represents the trend, that is less than 5% of the ministers reflecting the love of God to the flock. In light of that, it is a very small wonder that "the church" does not reflect the love of God. If the Shepherd is not teaching/leading/modeling the love TO the flock, the flock will do little to take the love to the world.
Just some thoughts.
That is exactly why we don't depend on anyone else for our spiritual welfare. We are to depend on Whom? If you depend on any man, no matter how 'godly' he is, you shall, at some point, be disappointed. Then you are forced to look to the One who made you.
And looking Him in the face may hurt, but it will in the end give you the answer that no man can give you...
His Son on the Cross. It is still beyond me. All I can do is to thank Him for it. I can't explain that kind of love. I couldn't send my own son there for any of you, or for me. All I can do is to relate what His love has done in me.
And even so, I struggle trying to resemble my Father, and His Son. My failure, every day, reminds me to try to love. It's not in me to do so, but it is in Him. And I want to be like His Son. I want to be a son of the Kingdom. But every day, I get in the way. If I could just get rid of myself...
oc.
If God did not desire the Shepherd to lead and to be the example, why did Jesus tell us about the Shepherd? Why did the apostles further develop specifically what the pastor is to do? If we are not to rely on each other and help each other in our spiritual walk, why did God create us to live in community? Why are we commanded to not forsake the assembly of ourselves together?
The purpose of my post was not about pastors who make mistakes and or who sin. My post was about pastor's being kind. And the rarity of that specific trait amongst "clergy."
The problem with pastor's is that they like to put the blame on everyone else. God knew that we as sheep need a shepherd to help guide us in the proper way. If pastor's were to actually look at the Great Shepherd, they would see that blame is not an appetizer for public consumption. Rather, kindness, true kindness is one of the cornerstones of a successful shepherd. Pastor's and those who claim that title would do well to look to scripture before they get all uppity and try and tell others how to live.
Who is the real Shepherd?
I think that says it all.
Kindness is a virtue that ALL would do well to learn...in pulpit AND pew. The blame game knows no boundaries. I've seen congregations guilty of blaming every last problem on a pastor as well. Not to mention some cruelties which beat anything I've ever seen a pastor do...and that, towards the pastor and his family, as well as towards each other. How many gossips and character assassins have you sat next to in church? How many church members have you known who live in open sin? How many have you known who never get involved in any part of church life, yet criticize everything that goes on? Perhaps the number of sub-standard pastors is just a reflection of the number of sub-standard church members. Something to think about while searching for stones...
PRAISE GOD!!! Thank you for your prayers. All things are possible through Christ! Lake Point Church in Rockwall, Texas has placed at the top of the home page of its website, "The Answer to the Ultimate Question." Pastor Steve Stroope presents the plan of salvation and a sample prayer to accept Jesus Christ as Savior. This is huge for a church that does not have a formal invitation at the end of its services! There is hope for Southern Baptist Churches. Now everything is in place when Jason Castro makes it to the top three on American Idol and the spotlight is placed on Rockwall, TX and Lake Pointe Church. Now anyone who is being drawn to Christ through the witness of Jason Castro and Lake Pointe Church will have information about becoming a Christian readily available. Thank you all for your prayers. God is truely GREAT! Thank you NASS for allowing my posts.
American Idol is rigged. Not to mention, Paula Abdul needs to lay off the firewater.
Anyone desiring to see Jim Whitmire can watch him here live on Sundays. Remember Florida is an hour ahead of Memphis. Their Sunday evening service is on now.
Beginning today, Mike Spraglin (sp is always a problem for me with his last name)is broadcast at 4:00 p.m. on 640am radio. He was great today.
there's that same script AGAIN!!!!
submit to the authority of "pastor"...
"dissidents"...
Sutton has issues with pride and arrogance...(now which seminary did he go to....is he about SG and Mac's age???)
I love the humble, servant hearted, called, pastors out there...
but the SBC is as corrupt an organization as any worldly one out there.
For those that don't read Waded's blog....check it out and do the research....
Wade's blog. Link is also on front page of this blog -- "Grace and Truth to You."
Valiant Christian woman Ingrid Schleuter turns down offer for all expense paid trip, and explains why she will not attend Purpose Driven Gathering.
Be encouraged..God always has a remnant.
VCY AMERICA HOST TURNS DOWN PURPOSE DRIVEN OFFER FOR ALL EXPENSE TRIP TO SADDLEBACK CONFERENCE
I beg to differ on the schools. If you propose a local solution by trashing the MCS's, and start over, then whatever you choose to replace it will still be hogtied to NCLB. Teacher's are forced to structure their curriculum to unfunded federal mandates--this seems for the short-term purpose of test scores, not the overall well-being of students.
As a teacher who regularly spends as much as 70-80 hour a week for the benefit of my students, and work with others doing likewise, dismantling the school system seems draconian.
I hope that NCLB will be reformed or discarded in the next administration.
Not sure we were discussing the MCS, but not all Baptists are of the mindset that we should trash the public school system. Not everyone has the means or ability to homeschool their children, nor can the majority of parents afford 4 or 5-figure tuition to send their kid(s) to private schools.
Granted, the MCS has a lot of problems, and a major overhaul is needed, but to level it and start from scratch is cost prohibitive and is not going to happen with the present political climate in Memphis. You have to work with what you've got and work within the system -- such as it is.
And, cakes, the MCS and your students are mighty fortunate to have a teacher like you. They need a lot more like you! Thank you for the passion you have for your profession and the compassion you have for your students.
Cakes said...
I beg to differ on the schools. If you propose a local solution by trashing the MCS's, and start over, then whatever you choose to replace it will still be hogtied to NCLB. Teacher's are forced to structure their curriculum to unfunded federal mandates--this seems for the short-term purpose of test scores, not the overall well-being of students.
As a teacher who regularly spends as much as 70-80 hour a week for the benefit of my students, and work with others doing likewise, dismantling the school system seems draconian.
I hope that NCLB will be reformed or discarded in the next administration.
11:49 AM, May 10, 2008
Your right cakes. I remember when I was in high school (Only about 10 years ago or so), it felt more like a factory setting. The schools seemed more interested in test scores than actually showing any concern to the students. I will admit, some students don't pick things up and understand them as quickly as others. Instead of working with the students, they just fail them. Heck, I had a teacher who was more concerned about selling Goldsmith's credit cards to students than actually teaching us lol.
The No Child Left Behind stuff is junk if you ask me. If anything, we're leaving more children behind because of the concern about test scores.
Cakes, the MCS and other school systems needs more teachers like you who actually care about your students. If more teachers were more proactive in being mentors for today's kids, perhaps the future of Memphis and the United States will be even brighter.
"I hope that NCLB will be reformed or discarded in the next administration."
Cakes, I agree. As I looked into it over the past few years it is a ridiculous mandate. And I am a conservative.
Has anyone noticed that SG uses Mothers Day to beat women into submission
(with twisted scripture,of course!).....at least the last 2 years he has...maybe 3.
Once upon a time....Mothers Day sermons at BBC honored moms...and many times were directed at dads on how to honor and respect their wives more.
Always on Mothers Day...I KNEW the sermons would be uplifting and encouraging to moms and challenging to the dads.
I used SG's sermon notes and asked my son some questions from "statements" made in the sermon today.
Thank the Lord!!!!...all those years of Christian education and the honoring Mothers Day sermons stuck!!!!
After explaining his answers FROM SCRIPTURE that did not go along with some of SG's statements....
this kid who has not attended church regularly since BBC was taken over.....
asked this question of me...
"why is he giving his OPINION of what the Bible says?"
...the Trinity submission thing was never taught at BBC when he was growing up or while he attended ECS.
IN fact...my son was able to tell me what year in school Mr. Boren had taught him quite the opposite from several of SG's main points today.
It would be hard not to notice. Looks like that's his Mother's Day tradition now.
And Bellevue's taking up a collection for the guy who leads the worship in the Career group's 9:30 shin-dig who is leaving to go to California for a couple months to work with some group that runs summer camps and then coming back to be the full time worship leader over at Evangel (Larry Ray's church).
Let me rephrase that....The career group is taking up a collection. Not the church as a whole.
Science lesson for the day:
You have GOT to watch this video! It is not quite 9 minutes - Make sure you watch it ALL the way through!
This is wonderful for the entire family! Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow!
I know some people I need to look at and try to remember their Laminin!
I sent this out earlier, but that link may not be working. Try this one:
YouTube.com - Louie Giglio - Laminin
It starts kind'a slow... but be patient. It's worth it!
\O/
Lynn: I'm confused. I thought Larry Ray and his church was independent. Is BBC supporting them?
didn't we always know Larry Ray was being paid by BBC????
His brother in law is the chairman of the deacons at BBC....right???
concernedSBCer said...
Lynn: I'm confused. I thought Larry Ray and his church was independent. Is BBC supporting them?
9:29 PM, May 12, 2008
I honestly don't know. It seems to me that this was a transitionary thing based on what I know, but who knows.
TN Lizzie, Thank you so much for sharing that video link of Louie Giglio. I've known those verses since I was a child, but stand amazed at the things I continually learn by the grace of God. It was a blessing.
ox,
Welcome! You need to make your profile visible if you're going to post again.
Thanks!
Thanks NASS, it took me a while but I created a profile! LOL. I've been reading this blog since a month or two after it started. I've shared prayers, heartaches, and rejoicing with many here but only in the background. I'm not much of a "post" person. Thank you all for sharing with me.
Thank you! :-)
ox,
Welcome and thanks for being there for us!
Did you know you didn't have to put an email and all the blanks filled in on your profile???
Hope you didn't go to alot of trouble just to post:)
Oh...has anyone else heard about what the Church of England wants to do to get teenagers into the church?
They want to bring in a long running science fiction tv show over there in England titled "Doctor Who" and draw parallels between The Doctor (Main character on Doctor Who) and Jesus.
I will admit, I have never watched any of the episodes of Doctor Who from when it ran from 1963-1989, but I have seen the new series episodes (2005-Present) and believe me when I tell you...using this show to preach is about as useful as pouring gasoline on smoldering embers.
Gmommy, Yep, I put all that info in just to post! But that's ok. I feel like I know most of you anyway! I joined Bellevue in 1972 just before Dr. Rogers came. I fully participated going on several mission trips, teaching ss classes for years, etc. I left in 1998 to live in Alabama, but was thrilled when I heard Dr. Gaines had accepted the call to preach there. Slowly, a check in my spirit arose as friend after friend told me of events that occurred. And no, I'm not talking about not liking the music or the famous "color of the carpet." My largest concerns were using sermons for other than reaching the lost and the attitude that overflowed from the ministry staff didn't seem to be from God. Staff I had known for years seemed foreign to me and wouldn't return phone calls or letters.My prayers are still with Bellevue and you all.
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