This article from the Nashville Scene by Elizabeth Ulrich takes a long, hard look at the problem of sexual abuse in the SBC and the SBC leadership's continuing refusal to deal with the problem.
It seemed likely last summer when the SBC voted to appoint a committee to "study" the problem that it was little more than a means of temporarily appeasing the critics while those in leadership continue to turn a blind eye to the problem. And now... it sounds as if that really is all there was to it.
SBCOutpost has a discussion of the article here.
February 18th: New article in the Nashville Scene.
Update: Paige Patterson is scheduled to preach at Bellevue Sunday morning, February 17th. Steve Gaines is scheduled to speak at the SWBTS chapel on April 17th. If it bothers you that these men, who have willfully ignored the problem of pedophile/sexual predator ministers in the SBC, are continuing to make the lucrative speaking circuit rounds, then let your voice be heard! Contact the media in Memphis and the SBC. This seems to be the SBC's answer to the problem -- a single page of links to outside agencies and resources.
Channel 3 (CBS)
Channel 3 Press Releases
Channel 5 (NBC)
Channel 13 (FOX)
Channel 24 (ABC)
Channel 24's Jeni DiPrizio who did the "Preacher Pads" report.
Commercial Appeal
James Dowd with the CA.
Wendi Thomas with the CA.
Submit a letter to the editor of the CA.
The Baptist Press
And while you're at it, you may want to drop a line to the pastor and pastor of students of the church that PW now is reported to be attending and ask them just how certain they are that their women and children are safe!
Dr. Ken Culver
Wayne Craig
625 comments:
1 – 200 of 625 Newer› Newest»Yay! I'm first.
WHy is it a large body wants to study an issue first before taking any action?
I mean, we have critical situations going on, but instead of acting swiftly to resolve the problem, they want to study. Heres an idea, take action against those in power now, and THEN evaluate ways to prevent it from happening in the future. While the SBC sits on their rears, I bet more and more ministers are abusing church members.
Same thing for the City Schools problem.
Hey, I saw on the Outpost that Patterson is having STeve Gaines preach at their chapel in April.
The commenter made an excellent point that the young potential pastors at SWBTS can rest assured that ignoring 1 Tim 2, protecting a pedophile minister is ok...it certainly will not hurt your career.
The commenter got that right. One would think Patterson would be appalled and not want Gaines near his students. But that is not the case at all.
What does that tell us about Patterson who fired a woman professor for well...being a woman? Yet Gaines who ignores scripture and pedophilia in a minister can preach at chapel?
No wonder they want to do nothing about it...they are too busy giving them speaking engagements.
I agree, Lynn. I want to know why we must discuss situations we already KNOW are happening.
I still go back to my question....if the SBC can't protect our children from pedophile pastors because all churches are "autonomous" then what are they good for?
I truly want someone to explain it to me.
Some of our mature members who know more, please come on and help me to understand the politics and the necessity.
Nass,
Concerning your earlier post today...
I am heart sick to know just how powerful the BBC bucks are.
I thought the power of family loyalty and decency would be stronger ....but denial, comfort, and money wins.
I hope everyone will take the time to read the article Nass has posted for this thread.
From the article...
"In all the times Vasquez has written to SBC officials, and most recently to most of the members of the executive committee charged with studying the feasibility of the predator database, not one has offered to help her. None has offered to counsel her, to refer her to a therapist or to sit face-to-face to hear her concerns, even though she’s requested to meet with the committee in person."
Not surprising at all, anymore. No one from Bellevue EVER called, reached out to, ministered to, or offered counseling to PW's son or his family. He was a victim, BBC was liable for his abuse by conducting a cover-up. He could've sued them for damages, but didn't. At the very least, a phone call from an official of the church could've easily been made, but apparently no one in power cared enough to check in on him.
A Clarification: in my previous point, the meaning for "mature" is someone who mioght have an idea on the inside workings of the SBC, someone with experience, that could explain it to me.
I mean this sweetly and sincerely. I am really struggling with this.
Scion: excellent point. My take on that is that to reach out to a victim in that circumstance, someone would have to admit wrong.
Apparently, that's not going to happen.
After reading the article and the quotes from the email from Patterson, I have to wonder ... does Patterson have any idea how arrogant, hostile, and uncaring he comes across? Does he care?
why admit wrong? they don't believe they did wrong ...anymore than PP thinks he's done wrong.
Money is power.
Dear Brothers & Sisters: Please hear me. I/we need your help. I have not spoken to anyone from SNAP but I am telling you now that we need to rally the troops and make a road trip to Texas in April. It is high time we brought this to a head. I will not sit by and let Steve Gaines and Paige Patterson pat each other on the back and get off on this one.
I am ready for a confrontation with these two men. They both are a disgrace to the ministry and to Jesus Christ. And for those on the "other" blog, get over it. Enough is enough. You did nothing when you should have. Too much stalling has gone on and innocent cildren are in harms way. It is time for the SBC to deal with men/leaders that refuse or make excues in dealing with pedopilia in the SBC churches.
I am sick and tired of them covering for their sick and twisted preachers. Anyone want join me? I lived in the Dallas area and I can tell you first hand it is beautiful that time of year in Teaxs. Let's plan to have demonstration that will rock them and get them the attention they deserve. I for one don't want Steve Gaines to cancel. I want a face to face meeting with him, something I could not get here in Memphis. Maybe Coombs won't be there to protect him this time.
Folks it is way past time. Will you join me in this road trip? I will get with Christa and see what we can do but I will be there if it is only me. Enough is enough. Please spread the word.
David Brown
SNAP Director for Memphi and West Tennessee
901/569-4500
davidbrown@bigriver.net
David,
Count me in.
I will do my best. Keep me posted.
Dear Junkster: Come April 17 he will know how arrogant, hostile and uncaring he is along with Steve Gaines. Come on folks it is time.
I have always stood by and asked for communication but when these men constantly side-speak enough is enough. They are just as guilty as the Catholic Church. In fact in the Memphis area they are behind the Catholic Church. All they give us are excuses or lies. And the whole time children are in danger.
It seems they are so desperate to protect the "brotherhood/priesthood" they forget about us and our children.
I could care less if it is a mega mega church or some struggling rual church; the greatest assets they have are the children. It is time they are taught this in the seminaries.
If you cannot be safe in your local church where can you be safe? Scripture tells not to forsake the assembling but they way they are going today I feel safer at home.
Please I ask you to spend some time in prayer and consider joining us in going to Texas. Leave Memphis that Wednesday evening. Rally at noon and then drive back. Only lose on day at work; but boy what an impact. Think about the message we will send. No more hiding for them.
Like one politician that has been quoted lately, IT IS TIME FOR CHANGE!
David Brown
Ya know, people can play dumb all they want...they can say its under the blood, they can say its all uncharted waters, they can say whatever the heck they want to try to cover it up, but the fact of the matter is, these churches that harbor pedophiliac priests are endangering the children.
David, I'm not sure if your aware of a news story today out of Fort Worth, TX. To sum up the story, a priest accused of sexually abusing children in 2 states has come out as being HIV POSITIVE. Its believed he's had the virus since 2003, but whats not to say he's had it before then, but it was incubating? This scares the daylights out of me.
Here is the link to the actual story.
Accused Priest has HIV Virus
Ducking already... cause I know this is not going to go over well...
Aren't we mixing legality and Christianity a little too much.
There needs to be criminal proceedings in these matters.
The church action is secondary civil action.
Why are we not harping on the prosecutor's office to get these offenders criminally charged. And then bringing civil cases against those who specifically have stood as their defenders. (By the way for some it should be criminal charges of aiding and abedding.)
It seems to me, that this is first a legal matter, and secondly a church matter. I understand being angry with the church, but the law enforcement is failing miserably in this area as well.
Wait one minute... running for cover... okay, bomb away...
BkWormGirl said...
Ducking already... cause I know this is not going to go over well...
Aren't we mixing legality and Christianity a little too much.
There needs to be criminal proceedings in these matters.
The church action is secondary civil action.
Why are we not harping on the prosecutor's office to get these offenders criminally charged. And then bringing civil cases against those who specifically have stood as their defenders. (By the way for some it should be criminal charges of aiding and abedding.)
It seems to me, that this is first a legal matter, and secondly a church matter. I understand being angry with the church, but the law enforcement is failing miserably in this area as well.
Wait one minute... running for cover... okay, bomb away...
11:10 PM, February 14, 2008
Unfortunately, I think the laws have to be changed. in the Bellevue situation, I think the statute of limitations ran out. And I'm not sure about the laws pertaining to Gaines role. I know several states have been working on revising the laws to address this, not sure about Tennessee though.
Bk Worm Girl......you bring up a question that has bothered me.....why aren't these cases going through the legal system more often?
David?
Friends: What might be even more effective, and take less time than a trip to Texas (at least for those of you in Memphis), would be a trip to Nashville on either Feb. 18 or 19. The Bylaws Workgroup of the SBC Executive Committee meets again on one of those dates (probably either Mon. afternoon or Tues. morning). This is the subcommittee that is supposed to be addressing this. They allow "outsiders" to sit in. The first time I was there, they allowed me to speak. Of course, you could also do a press conference out front. The same reporter who wrote the "What would Jesus say" article is going to try to be there, and another reporter also. This is the last meeting they will have before June just before the annual meeting. So if something is going to get done, it needs to start happening. At their last meeting, Paige Patterson was there in the room and spoke briefly, but don't know if he would be there this time or not - he's not on that subcommittee. Think about it. If you're interested, let me know ASAP and I'll try to find out the exact day and time and room number for the meeting. Doubt that I could be there - it's obviously a short timeframe for trying to get a cheap flight - but I sure wanna know about it if any of you decide to go.
There was questions as to whether or not it was beyond the statute of limitations. It was very close - and based off the timeline given in the BBC report - Gaines waiting until December made sure it was beyond the Statute in my opinion.
Nashville could be an easy drive compared to Texas...Christa could guide us on what we should do...my car and gas is available.
Bkwormgirl,
They didn't officially have a statue of limitations...they got under the radar on a technicality.
Christa: thanks for the heads up on the Nashville meetings. I know that I cannot make those, but I am still set on Texas in April. I know that Drs. Gaines and Patterson will be there.
As far as our expesnes I have a Jetta that gets great mileage and seats 5. The drive not all that long, done it many times. And Texas is beautiful that time of year with the wildflowers in bloom, plus they have great BQ.
I feel it is important to let them know their behavior is unacceptable. I say this not only as a SNAP leader but also as a long time Southern Baptist.
I don't want Dr. Gaines giving his "uncharted waters" speech to those students. They need to hear from us.
If anyone is interested please contact me. I have already heard from several of you that have expressed an interest in being there. Thanks for the response.
David Brown
SNAP director for Memphis & West Tennessee
davidbrown@bigriver.net
901/569-4500
"It seems to me, that this is first a legal matter, and secondly a church matter"
You think a pastor who ignored 1 Timothy 2, 1 Corin 5 and quite a bit of other scripture is a secondary matter to the legal matter?
You think eternal life is a secondary matter?
Now he is speaking to potential pastors at a seminary? Proving once again, that, as a pastor, you can ignore scripture and it will not hurt your career?
The Name of Jesus Christ and His Word is being mocked.
One more thing to consider. In this case the victim would have had to put his own dad in jail. As he made clear, he wanted his dad OUT of ministry. Gaines just was not cooperating and thought it was ok to keep a pedophile in a ministry position.
Lin wrote:
"Proving once again, that, as a pastor, you can ignore scripture and it will not hurt your career?"
Key word there being "career." It's become a career and a business, not a calling.
Okay Lin - let's take a deep breathe and let me try to explain what I was saying.
First of all, I never implied or stated that "eternal life was a secondary matter." That is not a fair accusation at all.
What I said was, the first route on these matters was a legal matter, specifically the criminal process OVER the civil process. This idea of suing churches as the first line of defense - was what I was addressing. If a member of a church committed murder, no one would be advocating to have the church address it. This is a criminal matter first. Church polity is secondary to that. Romans 13:1, tells us to recognize the government over us. That is my point in my entire thought process.
Secondly, I stated, "Why are we not harping on the prosecutor's office to get these offenders criminally charged. And then bringing civil cases against those who specifically have stood as their defenders. (By the way for some it should be criminal charges of aiding and abedding.)"
The first "defense" must be to go after the offender. The second defense is to go after any and all who defended/protected/covered him.
I have talked to several attorneys over the past several years who say, "churches are in a no win situation" if they do nothing they are morally wrong - if they admit wrong doing they are legally dead. I will take a legal defeat over a moral defeat if I must - that is my personal stance - however, as previously discussed on this blog - too many of these pastors (for a whole host of reasons) see the church as a business entity as well as a ministry.
To be very clear - in the case of BBC - The first action should have been against PW. (I will address the idea of his not going to jail in a moment.) And when SG acted as a buffer against prosecution - he should have been criminally charged. And if not criminally charged, he should be sued civilly. However, the attitude is to sue BBC because they have deeper pockets. It is this double talk that we are engaging in that is bothersome to me. The church is not a business. But sue the business because that is where the money is. The way we are "fighting" this battle is not about justice. It is about revenge. And for that we are wrong.
I understand CW position in not wanting his father in jail. I do not fault him for that. However, in most cases, the victim does not get to choose. I work with sexual assault survivors all the time who say, the last thing I wanted was to go through a trial and to have that family member in jail. Yet, they had NO say in the matter. So why is it different in this case, and in so many of these cases involving church people??
So, in my confusion I went back to a former professor and asked him why this is. This was his perspective on it. He said, the problem we have in America - is that churches notoriously do not aid prosecution cases. So prosecution handles cases with clergy much differently, and does not prosecute until the church makes an issue of it. Because the prosecutors know that a failed case is far worse than no case. If they take it to court and fail, and then two years later have enough evidence to make a conviction, they have already lost the opportunity because of double jeopardy.
That is exactly where I was coming from. (Just didn't have his wisdom to throw in the pot.) We as Christians need to get vocal about the prosecution of the offenders. And then we need to get vocal about prosecuting those who harbor the offenders.
I have been reading quite a bit over the past two days about the Alaskan diocese who is declaring bankruptcy as a result of an ongoing case where the victim will not settle. Does anyone really think that this was for the best. By no means do I believe that the Catholic church is the best choice on the block. But do we really expect the state to open soup kitchen, feed the homeless, or help low income families with adoptions now?
There is a great cost at keeping silent about abuse. And I am not advocating that in any way. But it seems the current "strategy" is not being effective in any way. And my opinion is because we are dealing with a symptom not a problem.
Finally, Gmommy, I hear what you are saying, I have heard that several times about the technicality. But when this case (BBC) is looked at by various people around the country they don't see the technicality. The see local politics standing in the way.
bkwormgirl and others: The reason more of these cases do not go through the legal system is because most states have statutes of limitation that are way too short. Because of the nature of the trauma, by the time most clergy molestation victims are psychologically capable of speaking out about it, the time period for prosecution is usually long gone. The National District Attorneys Association has recognized this problem and adopted a resolution last summer urging states to adopt longer limitation periods. "It is obvious that the criminal justice system cannot solve this enormous problem on its own," said one prosecutor. He spoke to the necessity for "a multitude of ways to expose the perpetrators of these crimes and prevent further victimization."
Catholics and most other major faith groups in this country have now adopted policies and procedures that allow for another way of exposing these crimes by allowing reporting of clergy-perpetrators to denominational review boards. Southern Baptists have not. (There are still countless failures in the implementation of policies in other faith groups, but at least policies are in place.)
Over 800 Catholic priests have now been removed from ministry and only about 3 percent have ever been prosecuted and only about 2 percent convicted. They were removed from positions of ministry (i.e., positions of trust that allowed access to the young and vulnerable) by virtue of action taken within the faith group itself. That possibility does not yet exist for Southern Baptists.
And bkworkgirl...it's not a matter of "being angry with the church." It's a matter of desperately seeking to protect others against grievous, long-lasting harm and of seeking to restore churches to places of integrity and trust within communities.
bkwormgirl, I keep forgetting you were not around when we discussed this very thing for 2 or 3 threads!
My point is that why can't we expect Christian leaders to be outraged? Why are they giving the guy a platform to preach? At the very least he could be ignored.
He was even invited to speak at the Kentucky state convention! (Al Mohler controls that one)
What we are to think from this? Of course they cannot tell the autonomous church what to do but they certainly do not need to be promoting him, either.
It makes NO sense to me. And it sends a very wrong message.
"I have been reading quite a bit over the past two days about the Alaskan diocese who is declaring bankruptcy as a result of an ongoing case where the victim will not settle. Does anyone really think that this was for the best."
Yes. I do. I am starting to think the very same thing about the SBC. God does NOT need us. We need HIM. He will get His work done, with or without us. We give ourselves way too much credit. He WILL present a pure Bride to Himself. And there is a pure Bride out there....we just don't see it.
Paige Patterson is preaching the Sunday Morning service at Bellevue this coming Sunday, February 17th.
One hand washes the other...
Yes, it's true. Note also that Josh Stewart is indeed returning.
BellevueToday
Paige Patterson is preaching the Sunday Morning service at Bellevue this coming Sunday, February 17th.
One hand washes the other...
12:24 PM, February 15, 2008
They are rallying behind Gaines trying to help buck up the membership.
Patterson is fast becoming a joke.
BTW: Does Donna Gaines EVER teach men?
Man, I am really wondering about all this. And I know I am coming from a point of ignorance concerning sexual abuse. I have never experienced that, and I don't know that I would survive it myself. But I wonder, especially as for sexual abuse, or actually for any other crime come to think of it... (although I think that sexual abuse is murder of the soul)...
Why is there a "statute of limitations" anyway?
What does this mean? If I can intimidate you and shut you up long enough, or if you are ashamed (because I, or anyone else, has caused you to feel that it was your fault... so that you won't come forward in a "timely manner"), then what I did to you isn't a crime? To me, that is almost worse than the crime itself. The "statute of limitations" is criminal in itself.
Jussayin'.
oc.
Jussayin.
oc.
Paige Patterson is a
misogynist, as evidenced ( among other things) by his refusal to do anything about the women that came to him to complain about Darrell Gillyard...insenuating that it was racism, or telling the woman that she wore ' revealing' clothing.
If he isn't a misogynist, I don't know whtat is:
–noun:hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.
And yet, the glassy-eyed women in the audience at BBC this week will stand and applaud him, when the truth of the matter is that IF something horrible happened to them at the hands of a Baptist Clergy member, he would blame it on them, and slap the clergy on the back...
The Good ol boys club, alive and well.
RE: Statute of Limitations:
When I was 32 years old, I called the D.A. in Biloxi, Mississippi to inquire about pressing charges against my perp.
Although she was very sympathetic, the D.A. told me that the statute had run...
Until that time in my life, I did not have the confidence or the wherewithall to take something like that on.
The laws protect the perp. You do not have statute of limitation laws on murder, why have them on this? It is the murder of one's soul.
The D. A. was interested in the information I gave her about him, and took my name..She told me that she would pass the word to the law enforcement officials down there and would call me if anyone else ever came forward.
And seriously, if you ever did it to my daughter, or any of my friends and loved ones, I would show you some "statutes" you wouldn't forget.
If PP is preaching this Sunday morn, and Akins Sunday night, where is Gaines?
I remember the last time Bellevue had Paige Patterson speak was at a Men's Outdoor/Hunting supper.
Patterson gave us all a slide show of the many times he had gone to Africa and all over the world hunting big game. At the end, he challenged everyone in the room if you hadn't done so already to take your children or grandchildren on one of these hunting safaris.
At $20,000 a trip, I was wondering what most of us there were wondering. How does this seminary president travel all over the world every year on these hunting expeditions?
Look at the speaking gigs these guys line each other up for and you can see how they can afford what the average member would never be able to afford.
I guess it pays to turn your eyes the other way and not rock the boat.
Lin,
The reason these guys are given a platform is MONEY!
These guys have to pump each other up because they all have each other over to their churches to speak.
"You have me over to your place and I'll have you over to mine."
and
"I'll make sure my buddies have you at their churches as well and they can get on your list."
I call it church money laundering.
"If PP is preaching this Sunday morn, and Akins Sunday night, where is Gaines?"
My guess is he's either physically unable right now (he didn't preach last Sunday night either) or filling one of his buddies' pulpits to make a little extra money. Anyone know?
Are they being paid to speak?
If so, BBC should make it known to the congregation how much they are paying these SBC speakers. Aren't they both employees of the SBC? Is that double dipping? I mean churches are paying their salaries already through the CP.
I don't have a lot of time right now to respond to several of your posts. I promise I will come back to them tonight. However, I wanted to address one particular matter.
I know the cliché that it is murder of the soul is common. But for me personally. I reject that lie. When my pastor raped me on the alter before God, he wounded my soul. He wounded my future relationships, to this moment (and for many more to the future I suspect) my life was horribly impacted. However, he did not murder my soul. My soul did and still communes with God. My soul, my ability to love and be loved, while damaged was not murdered. My ability to live was not taken away from me. Wounded. Definitely. Murdered - I don't accept it.
As for the SOL - I agree there should not be a statute of limitations on most of these sex crimes. (I have a small qualifier on that - but that is for another discussion - In short I believe SOL on any crime involving an adult on child should not exist.)
Just my thoughts - more to come...
lin said:
"Are they being paid to speak?
If so, BBC should make it known to the congregation how much they are paying these SBC speakers. Aren't they both employees of the SBC? Is that double dipping? I mean churches are paying their salaries already through the CP."
oc says:
Sorry lin, but are you being serious??? Please,the "congregation" doesn't even know how much they are paying their VERY OWN pastor!
If they aren't allowed to know that, then it sure isn't their business about who else they are paying or how much. But they are willing to put up with that.
Makes me want to vomit.
So just a thought. Maybe I should get on the payroll. I guess that would be none of any one's business either.
And for all you know, maybe I am.
Jussayin'.
oc.
Bkwormgirl,
I can't begin to respond to your post....my fingers would cramp.
Does everyone realize the family link with Josh Stewart and CW??????
Between the article we discussed last night and this slap of information...I am sick.
BTW,
I DID talk to the DA when this whole cover up began AND to attorneys...and a therapist...
if only things were as simple as it appears they should be.
...“If you please God…He will make it up to you in ten thousand ways….But he will not bless if you allow your sorrows to cause you to join false accusers.”
This self righteous non scriptural remark was made by the man that will stand in the pulpit of BBC this Sunday!!!!
Paige Patterson said this to a woman who was raped by her minister as a girl...
the rapist is standing in an SBC pulpit today!!!
The victim has a child by this minister...it has been proven...
now because she has turned to Snap for support after going thru every SBC channel..AND every LEGAL channel.....Paige Patterson so hates Snap for working to expose the guilty so as to protect the innocent that he labels Snap "false accusers".
And there are enough stupid people that will believe him.
Please see Christa Brown's latest thread.
This man is speaking at BBC this Sunday!
No surprise that Paige Patterson and Steve Gaines support the other one's speaking engagements.
I saw a post where Bro. Steve's health was brought up. This is my first post on this blog. I've followed your cause since it's conception. Keep It up!! I still attend BBC. I feel led to stay at this point for those who are left. I don't know if any of you have noticed over the past 6 weeks, but Bro. Steve has been looking swollen. Also over the past 2 or 3 Sundays he's been moving slowly, he's been sweating, his speech has been slurred. It was extremely evident this past Sunday, he was unable to control his facial muscles. His eyes were opening and closing and quivering at random. It was obvious he was not able to control it. From what sources tell me, there is a much more serious problem than anyone knows. From what I'm told, medication is now useless at this point. I've also been told from a source who works in the Pastor's Office, that many of the daily decisions are being made by David Coombs and Jamie Parker. I don't mean to spread rumors, but this source has been at BBC for over a decade and is involved in the details of the daily workings of BBC. Has anyone else gotten any information on this?
Link to Christa's blog.
Here you can read about Paige Patterson's own "Travelgate."
The remark about "murder of the soul" was made by me. And it was admittedly made by one who would not know the horror. The remark was made with thoughts of my loved ones in mind. It was filled with raw emotion. So I will apologize for it, and will take it back. I think.
OC,
It IS rape of the soul.... we are the walking wounded...
we walk and fight and sometimes melt and rest for a while.... but we have to keep walking and going forward.
The nice Christians like PP would like us to believe that to move forward we must not speak about the horror....
we must act like nothing happened.
They actually tell us...as PP has told victims of clergy abuse...
that to speak the truth about this sin ...WE cause harm to God or the church.
I guess something like JH supposedly has hurt the cause of Christ...RATHER than the wrong actually done by leaders being what hurt the cause of Christ.??? Really confusing.
How can the person whose intention is to report the sin done be worse than the one who did the sin????
I haven't seen this kind of mindset since my own sexual abuse was twisted so much that somehow I was the wrong doer rather than the perpetrator that hurt me.
I don't believe for one second that PP and SG don't KNOW that their treatment of sexual abuse victims is part of the harmful rape to their souls.
They KNOW...I've met simple uneducated people that know.
These so called leaders do not care.
Check out the ledger for PP. He is getting rich being the big dog of the SBC.....why would he let some wounded women keep him from the good life.
He said himself every man should own one.....he was talking about women....created in the image of God.
I seriously question this man's heart....
out of his mouth comes what is in his heart.
Paige Patterson's stewardship.
Paige Patterson told them to stuff it.
lily: You go girl! I only wish I could be there with you!
Please, nobody should even consider wearing a controversial message t-shirt into a worship service! There are proper ways and proper places to get your message across. A worship service, regardless of the church, is neither the time nor the place.
S.N.A.P. has a strong message and is doing a lot of good. Please don't hinder their efforts by using their name in any kind of protest without their blessing.
A burial fit for a... dog?
Paige Patterson and the chapel debacle. Read the lawsuit links at the end. Suspicious, indeed.
Paige Patterson's treatment of SWBTS trustee, Dwight McKissic...
How it all went down...
The great disservice...
McKissic responds...
McKissic resigns...
I thought the president of the seminary was supposed to be accountable to the board of trustees, not vice versa.
Paige Patterson on women...
“I think everybody should own at least one.”
Article.
At the bottom of Nass' 10:28 comment... (1982..from the lawsuit documents in the link)
Paige Patterson is the president, and Dorothy Patterson is the secretary of the Criswell Center. Beginning approximately three (3) weeks prior to [Nelson] Farry’s death, Paige Patterson and Dorothy Patterson began a series of visits to Mr. Farry and Velma Farry, who was attending him in the hospital. During these visits the Pattersons made strenuous efforts to persuade the Farrys to convey all their belongings immediately to the Criswell Center for Biblical Studies, on several occasions even bringing a typewriter and deed forms to the hospital for this purpose. Finally, by the use of threats, intimidation, and misrepresentations, the Pattersons induced Mr. Farry and Velma Farry to sign the deeds, copies of which are attached hereto . . . conveying to the Criswell Center all of the real property owned by the Farrys. They also induced Mr. Farry and Velma Farry to execute the document attached hereto . . . conveying to the Criswell Center all of the personal property owned by the Farrys.
bkworm, oc,
I don't know who first coined " "murder of the soul" However, I used it in a post earlier today, and in my own mind, I made it up myself...so, OC, no need for you to apologize...
bkworm, you make a good point, however, I do feel that my soul was murdered over the years that my abuse took place..I was a walking shell of a person. I can only describe to you that I had no soul. I had no one to turn to, and felt totally and completely alone as a child. That man DID murder my soul..
When I was born again, I received a soul..one that was able to forgive the perp, ( not that he deserved it, but i had to forgive in order to keep my own soul) He never asked for forgiveness, and I never told him that i forgave him, for i had not seen him in over 30 years at the time I was born again.
Forgiveness was for ME, not him.
Anyway, not to argue the point with you, bookworm..that's just how it felt to me at the time.
Paige Patterson on women...
“I think everybody should own at least one.”
oc says:
What? Are you sure this isn't an 1845 SBC statement on the worth of negroes?
No? It's a 1997 statement by Patterson? Concerning women?
Who are also made in the image of God. Some people never learn.
Hmmmm. Great SBC representative.
The Cooperative Program is no longer enough to keep me in the SBC. The missionary system kept me in for years. But that's not enough now. You embarrass me SBC,your leaders say and do stupid and criminal things, time and time again, from not getting involved because of "autonomy" which would involve persuing and prosecuting sexual abuse charges, even down to your choice of ignorant, lame,and even dangerous Sunday School literature. What do you have to keep me here? Because I'm on my way out. Start talking...fast...
like a pastor in a pedophile investigation...
I want to address something that has come up today on the blog and that is the phrase "soul rape or murder". I forget but someone said that was lie. I must strongly disagree with that.
I have worked with way too many victims of CLERGY abuse and that phrase is so true. One can heal from the physical and emotional abuse but yet there still lingers this deep wound. Now before everyone tells me to turn to Jesus, stop. I have done that many years ago. But what you fail to realize that these victims like most other vicitms of sexual abuse have a real issue of trust. And when you factor in that a pastor/minister/priest was your abuser, your faith is rocked to the core. I wish it were not true but there are professionals that work with these victims of clery abuse amd they will tell you it is all too true.
I just got through with a project in Nashville with Andre Conte, the governor's wife and that was a huge part of what we are trying to deal with the "soul rape or murder."
There are many brave victims on this blog, many of you I know. My heart goes out to you. But we must never quit speaking out, regardless of what others may say.
I can tell you that you are helping other victims, giving them courage become survivors. And you will never know how many you have already helped. Keep up the faith.
David Brown
SNAP director of Memphis and West Tennessee
Dear Brothers and Sisters: I want to echo what NASS as said about wearing the "proposed" SNAP T-shirts. Please don't do it. SNAP would never propose nor condone sending a message this way. If you want to rally I urge you to do across the street from the church.
I am in Hinesville, GA with son who most of you know came back from Iraq a very ill soldier. Today we came back from Ft. Gordon where he saw a specialist. Trust me if I could be there Sunday I would but, I will not be back until sometime Monday evening.
Yes, it does seem as if this is some of the good ole boys at it again. "If I have you me at my church you will reutrn the favor and have me at yours." Great way to make lots of money. Would it be better if these good ole boys got in a room and implemented a way to protect our children? Instead of scratching each other's backs and pockets.
I have spoken with my mentors with SNAP and they are not in favor of wearing any SNAP t-shirts in a worship service. They don't recall where we ever did that type of protest. So please forget the t-shirt thing. We must always be respectful in a worship service.
If any of you want to make signs of protest and stand across the street from the church, please to do it. But don't get in shouting match with anyone. You will encounter detractors, just ignore them.
But more importantly be in prayer. Much prayer is needed. I love you all.
David Brown
SNAP director for Memphis and West Tennessee
Can someone give me the definition of soul? I wonder if that is where my confusion comes in.
Also, how do we account for Matthew 10:28. (KJV) "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
I have no problem with what people choose to wear in a worship service so long as it's respectful and decent and they're properly covered. I see nothing disrespectful about the word "SNAP" on a T-shirt and, to the contrary, churches should be sending SNAP support-money because we do a ministry work that they themselves ought to be doing. It's an outreach - like other sorts of ministries. In any event, I question whether what's going on at Bellevue is "worship" when someone who says the sorts of things Paige Patterson says is put in the pulpit. I look to what Jesus did in the temple and think He might well be outraged by THAT sort of disrespect.
I agree that SNAP typically does any sort of "event" by standing on a public sidewalk outside a building (in part because it's the way to get media attention). But wearing a T-shirt isn't an "event," it's a personal expression like any other article of clothing or jewelry. Of course, no one should ever engage any sort of shouting match or hostile encounter.
On "soul-murder"...countless clergy abuse survivors have recounted this as how they feel. (And the fact that there's a strong correlation between childhood sexual abuse and later suicide is a strong indication that its victims genuinely do feel the destruction of their core-selves.) So, I absolutely view it as a very apt and appropriate expression. And the "soul-murdering" effect of the abuse is perpetuated and continued when so many other religious leaders further shame and shun us, bully us, and slam doors in our faces, when we attempt to report the abuse.
Christa Brown
SNAP Baptist Outreach Director
www.StopBaptistPredators.org
Christa,
You make some good points. Such as is what PP doing really "leading worship"? I think it's just another money-making opportunity, but that's my opinion.
However, wearing any kind of potentially controversial message t-shirt into a church is just asking for a confrontation. Believe me, if anyone does that, you're going to get more than a confrontation!
Whether what PP is doing can be considered "worship" isn't the point. There are going to be people there who are there to worship, and it's not right to disrupt their time.
Also, none of us (that I know of, with the exception of you and David Brown, and neither of you is going to be in Memphis tomorrow) are members of S.N.A.P. For one of us to wear a t-shirt like that (or to carry a sign with a reference to S.N.A.P. on it) would be giving the impression that we're somehow representing that organization, and of course we're not.
So I suppose if someone wants to wear a t-shirt that says, "Paige Patterson doesn't care when ministers abuse their flocks," then more power to you. At least then you're only representing yourself. I'm not recommending anyone do that either (at least not inside the building or on church property), but anywhere else, as long as you're not giving the appearance of representing an organization that you're not... more power to you!
Lily and I were not going to have T shirts made for tomorrow.
Personally, BBC would have to pay for more than just therapy if I went near that place for any reason.
The betrayal of my church pulled the scab off my deep wounds of sexual abuse ...from my heart and my soul.
The humiliation and powerlessness that PW made me experience when he took advantage of my wounds and his position of trust in that place I trusted enough to raise my children in was bad enough.
that the people I told right after it happened didn't want to deal with it...well, too bad I didn't know my blog friends then....it was sad and disheartening.
But when the perverted minister's son was calling for help and the dismissal of the sexually deviant minister from the BBC staff AND HE WAS IGNORED FOR OVER 6 MONTHS...that was unbelievable.
After the bogus investigation took place WITH NO ONE AVAILABLE TO THE WOUNDED with any experience or compassion or even one woman available to go to.....
and the very worse....
when the report was read with all it's flaws, holes, lies, and rationals...
EVEN giving MORE COMPASSION TO PW than to his victims....too much for this wounded soul to bear!!!
There are times when it does seem not worth the fight.
This horrible experience at BBC would have been the time I probably would have turned away from God and church and gone in my hole and never come out....
had it not been for the loving, Godly support God provided me thru the people on this blog.
Before Nass put us on moderation, there were many that sought to wound us even more..... their cause was to further cover and make excuses for the men at BBC that thought the harm done by sexual abuse was not bad enough ...NOT IMPORTANT enough to mess up their empire at BBC.
DC knew me on a personal basis...
I have never heard a word from the one that inteviewed me in the bogus investigation or DC or anyone else....ever.
Would it matter if they were aware of the break down of my body from the trauma their handling of the PW scandal???
Would it matter if they knew all the time I wasn't able to work after the betrayal from my supposedly "safe place" of over 20 years????
We all know the answer is NO.
Paige Patterson has set the example over and over for the way the wounded have been treated.
How fitting that he will stand in the pulpit tomorrow ay BBC and that SG will speak at his empire of a seminary soon.
THEY TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER....not those of us who have needed help and support.
There is NO love at that place I trusted for over 20 years.
They have the dead souls.....mine hurts and still longs to be healed and perfected by God.
I've heard their lies,excuses, and twisted thinking...and felt their shun....and they call themselves men of God.
WHO hurts the cause of Christ more???
Those of us who call for truth???
Or these "men of God" like PP and SG who respond with arrogance and cold self righteousness...who literally pervert scripture to justify their self serving ungodly behavior????
Just to be clear...I would never, ever recommend that anyone disrupt a worship service.
If you aren't members of SNAP already, then I certainly hope some of you will join - we would love to have you. It's fast and easy, and you don't have to donate to join. Here's a link.
gmommy: Your continuing pain is palpable. I grieve with you and for you - for ALL that you have been through. You're in my thoughts.
No one responded to a new blogger (5:55 yesterday).....I can't speak to his post....can anyone respond????
"Would it matter if they were aware of the break down of my body from the trauma their handling of the PW scandal???"
No. None of them would care a bit. But they will all go on and on about Steve's health. And keep in mind, he has the best health care money can buy.
John Adkinson said...
I saw a post where Bro. Steve's health was brought up. This is my first post on this blog. I've followed your cause since it's conception. Keep It up!! I still attend BBC. I feel led to stay at this point for those who are left. I don't know if any of you have noticed over the past 6 weeks, but Bro. Steve has been looking swollen. Also over the past 2 or 3 Sundays he's been moving slowly, he's been sweating, his speech has been slurred. It was extremely evident this past Sunday, he was unable to control his facial muscles. His eyes were opening and closing and quivering at random. It was obvious he was not able to control it. From what sources tell me, there is a much more serious problem than anyone knows. From what I'm told, medication is now useless at this point. I've also been told from a source who works in the Pastor's Office, that many of the daily decisions are being made by David Coombs and Jamie Parker. I don't mean to spread rumors, but this source has been at BBC for over a decade and is involved in the details of the daily workings of BBC. Has anyone else gotten any information on this?
5:55 PM, February 15, 2008
I am not sure about whats going on. Other people have told me the same thing as you have, but I do not know anything first hand.
So many things to address.
First and foremost - my heart too aches for victims of sexual assault. Both for me personally and for others I know and for those I don't know. There are many days I wonder if I will ever be a "normal" person. Will I ever have joy for longer than a few minutes? Will I be able to be able to own and hold on to the idea that God loves me even though he allowed me to go through what I did. How do I convince other victims that God loves them despite the fact He did not use his power to intercede in their life and allowed them to suffer. How can I trust in the goodness of a God who created me, knowing my purpose for 7 years of my childhood would be the sex toy of my minister. How do I go to church every Sunday with anything other than dread because I know the flashbacks of my PTSD will start the moment I sit in the sanctuary - even though the sanctuary looks nothing like my childhood church. I too used to be what I called a Robot Barbie doll. I had the looks, and just about as much heart. Tell me what to do and I would do it. However, it had no meaning. Smile and be happy, sure - while my heart cried on the inside. Be the devoted church member and Sunday school teacher - perfect. How do you want me to perform - because who I am or want to be does not matter. (That was one of many lies my abuse taught me.) My ability to love or be loved was so diminished it was almost non existent. Suicide attempts were a common thing early adulthood. I could perform well but I was not living.
Today, I am living. Not well, to love and be loved is still very difficult. To be willing to fight for life - is still difficult. The only thing that I cling to and upon which I get through the day is the sovereignty of God. God doesn't have to explain to me why He allowed the abuse to happen. He doesn't have to show me how He is going to use my abuse for good in His kingdom. How I feel about God does not erase his power to see the entire picture. God is still in charge even when evil is running rampant in the world.
What I do know is that, God is slowly, kindly, and patiently showing me that my life is not defined by the abuse that happened to me. My life is not ruined or destroyed because of what happened to me. Forever changed? Yep, without a doubt.
The only reason for any of my comments on this blog is because I believed that the people on this blog desire to be people of integrity. As I come to the blog each day, and I see the rage (possibly righteous anger) it seems that we are discounting the righteousness and power and sovereignty of God. PLEASE do not read my comments as I think we should do nothing. Or I think we are doing it all wrong. That is not my purpose whatsoever. I simply attempt to offer additional or new ways to look at things.
Christa and I - will just have to respectfually disagree - I don't see where we are making progress. And my personal opinion is that it is because we are putting our faith in the wrong place.
When this mess at BBC broke out - I was devastated. Any illusion I had been able to deceive myself into thinking that just my childhood church was filled with evilness was gone. Every time I ran into a BBC member who defended SG I would again feel the wounds being reopened. For me every person who stayed at BBC was just like all those people who stood in my childhood church and said I was an evil child a horrible liar for saying such vile things against my minister. I know that was not the intent of the people - yet amazing how Satan was able to convince me of his lie.
At first I began to pray only for me. God, help me. God where are you? Over time I began to pray for God to show me very clearly what to do about this BBC situation. Honestly, God showed me to walk away - that this was not the battle I was to fight. He renewed my passion to work toward justice. (Not justice as the world sees it either - justice as He sees it.) In that end, I want to do everything I can to work toward restoring those who have been damaged by the effects of abuse.
For me that means refuting the lies Satan feeds sexual assault victims. And I believe he feeds them so many. The reason that suicide rates are so high among sexual assault survivors is because we as Christians do not do enough to refute the lies. Again, I am not trying to say anyone is wrong - just explaininh my point of view. To me, if I say, my soul was murdered (and on this blog it was put forth by several people that rape was soul murder - therefore using that definitive statement - my soul was murdered) then I have no hope. I define soul as the intellectual portion of our being that communes with God and where our conscious is also stored. If my soul was murdered I have no ability to commune with God. I have no conscious over what is wrong. To hear that was the most defeating thing I have heard all week, and folks it had already been a duzy of a week. I refuse to let my abuser do that to me. Did he wound my soul - oh yes. But he did not take away my ability to commune with God. It is for that reason that I refuted that statement. For me, that is a lie, that I will not accept.
I recognize and understand that others may have a different perspective of what the soul is. SOTL - you made a great distinction of what you meant - and that made sense to me.
I hope possibly I have tried to explain myself. I don't disagree with anyone that we should be angry with all these leaders who protecting abusers. And I still stand by my original statement - lets start suing them. They are an accessory after the fact. If a few of this big name leaders were individually sued - and were bankrupted - that would send a MUCH more significant message to other leaders.
Just my thoughts...
SEE THE UPDATE ON THE FRONT PAGE.
bkwormgirl: I'm not exactly sure what disagreement you're referring to, but I would certainly hope that no one thinks the work of SNAP or myself is in any way intended to discount the righteousness of God or the faith of anyone. What people wind up seeing about the work of SNAP is the public advocacy work, but in actuality, at least 90 percent of SNAP's work is quiet, behind-the-scenes outreach and support for survivors. I personally view it as a sort of "ministry" because, like you, I know that clergy abuse victims have had so many terribly untrue things planted in their heads.
John: I can't speak directly to your post. I have noticed how "puny" he looks, though. I know first hand what long-term prednisone use does to your body. I have heard from numerous sources that SG tends to just QUIT taking his prednisone periodically when he's feeling good. Prednisone is not a drug you can do that with. You MUST slowly and systematically have your dosage reduced to get off prednisone. It took 18 months to simply lower my daughter's dosage. If what I have heard is true, great damage could have been done to his body just by the steriod use- and misuse- alone.
I do agree he looks poorly.
I'm surprised he really feels like traveling to Texas to speak since he struggles with speaking at his church.
concerned said...
I'm surprised he really feels like traveling to Texas to speak since he struggles with speaking at his church.
11:22 AM, February 16, 2008
Someone told me they think thats why they brought in Huckabee a couple weeks ago. But who knows.
Bkwormgirl deserves a blog hug.
Thank you for sharing your heart... I support you and appreciate your insight.
I'm dabbing more of THE glue to the big gash in my soul...I have a special distributor :)
wounded but still walking with THE Healer.
Blog friends...
Please use the links Nass has provided to shine light on the crime and sin of SBC ministers turning a blind eye to clergy sexual abuse.
We must speak out.
Very good point Concerned SBCer!!!
You can watch Steve Gaines on Bellevue's web cast from last Sunday and I have to admit, Steve Gaines looks like he needs medical help.
His left eye is half shut and his right eye is overly wide open. He speaks as if he is in another world somewhere, at times making statements that don't need to be made like "asking the audience if they eat frog legs and then letting everyone know he ate them the other day."
Bizarre behavior is putting it lightly. Has everyone at Bellevue become so hardened they don't see it?
This is a post from someone on Christa's blog.
It reminds me of something "piglet" would write...she was great at word pictures.
I think it's worth reading. I appreciate this post very much.
I read an article at Ethicsdaily.com entitled "Does God Protect Some Disaster Victims But Not Others", dated 02-15-08 by authors Brittani Hamm and Adelle M. Banks. The article talks about the tornado disaster that hit Union University and other areas in the southeast recently.
I thought after reading the article that just as people respond to help victims of tornadoes and other natural disasters, clergy sexual abuse victims need help. But it is puzzling that no one responds. The Southern Baptist denomination is not responding. Church leaders may try to discredit the ones who speak out against the abuse, shame the victim, intimidate and even sometimes threaten, ridicule or use twisted theology, etc. Church members may become angry at the victim because they want to protect their beloved minister or think it will hurt the church. When the one who did the damage is a respected and trusted minister in a position of authority in the church, what does a victim do? That minister may be respected on local, state and national denominational levels. The clergy abuse victims are asking for help, showing a need for changes to be made and the denominational and church leaders are crying foul, calling a support group "evil doers", and "just as reprehensible as the sexual criminals" themselves.
Tornadoes are natural disasters and we have warning sirens, meteorological forecast, emergency relief efforts, outpouring of churches helping, and neighbors helping neighbors. Who helps the one assaulted by SBC ministers, assaulted on so many levels as Debbie Vasquez and Christa Brown and so many others? Thus far, it has not been the Southern Baptists. That saddens me.
February 16, 2008 12:43 PM
Gibson, Dyer and Beulah Baptist Associations presents...
The 2008 Cluster Men’s Conference
Hillcrest Baptist Church
February 22 @ 7:00 PM & February 23 @ 8:00 AM
Guest Speakers
Gibson County Association
Bro. Joey Johnson, Whitehall Baptist
Dyer Association
Bro. Don Williams, Elon Baptist
Beulah Association
Bro. Ron Cox, FBC South Fulton Baptist
KEY NOTE SPEAKER
Bro. Steve Gaines, Bellevue Baptist
Music Provided by:
FBC Praise Team (Trenton); Jason Sargent (Newbern); Ryan Wingo (Memphis); Bill Taylor (Newbern); Jamie Worrell (Union City)
Free Admission
Lunch served on Saturday
Pre-registration not a must, but will be beneficial for planning.
Call DBA Office at 285-2727.
"As I come to the blog each day, and I see the rage (possibly righteous anger) it seems that we are discounting the righteousness and power and sovereignty of God. PLEASE do not read my comments as I think we should do nothing. Or I think we are doing it all wrong. That is not my purpose whatsoever. I simply attempt to offer additional or new ways to look at things. "
Rage?
You gave us one example: Sueing. Are there others?
I have to totally disagree with you on this. No one has any idea how much blogs and the internet have changed things. And the fallout may not be realized for sometime. There are no more protections from secular or even Baptist media for the power brokers.
You may not realize it, but blogs have forced somethings to change that otherwise would have gone unnoticed by the masses.
A blog forced Dan Rather to 'retire'. A little old blog of a nobody published proof of Dan Rather basically lying and it went around the world in seconds.
If anything, victims can put the information out there. We have NO power over people blindly following these ungodly men. But, they are no longer following them blindly but knowing there are major problems.
I have NO faith in anything outside of Christ. But one has to tell me if we should be silent when we see evil, lies, deception, abuse and greed in Christian 'leaders'. If we are to only let 'God handle it" then why were the Epistles written?
Read John 3 and tell me what Diotrephes did wrong. He was not accused of being a false teacher. And notice John did not tell Gaius to throw him out of the church. HE simply said that Dio wanted to be 'first' and would not acknowledge other brothers so he was telling Gaius in a letter he knew would be passed around. he was 'outing' Dio. He said he would confront him, himself, IF he was able to get there. John knew the Body needed to deal with it but Dio had taken over and crowned himself king. In order for him to do that...people HAD to voluntarily be following him. It would take others speaking out to change that.
Lin -
I am not sure what the point of your post was. My point was and remains to be, nothing is changing with what we are doing. It has been almost 15 months since the BBC thing - what has happened to any of the key players or primary supporters. Nothing! In fact, their support has grown.
Additionally, I am not sure what you are talking about - John 3 has nothing to do with Diotrephes. Third John however does. And furthermore, III John has been a source of confusion for many theologians. Why is only John allowed to talk to Diotrephes? Why doesn't John write a letter telling the rest to straighten up. It seems like John is going to handle it himself. The same passage you are using to support blogs, is reason many claim there should be no blogs.
Now, to be clear, I would hate to have you attempt to accuse me again of something I did not say.
I fully support blogs. Even if/when I totally disagree with the content and the types of conversation on them. I value the first amendment in a great way. Additionally, this blog is not something I find offensive.
I keep hearing this idea of we have to help the victims. Really? Cause I am wondering how that is going to happen? What about any of these plans has actually helped the majority of clergy abuse victims. So here and now, I declare what I would like to see.
I would like to see a national charitable organization set up. The purpose of the organization would be to help screen Christian psychologists to aide in the therapeutic needs of sexual assault victims by clergy. And additionally that funding would be available for those who cannot afford counseling. Now that would be a charity I would be eager to give to.
Just my thoughts.
Gmommy -
Thank you so much for your kind words and support. It meant a great deal and helped to balance other messages of the day.
Blessings to you.
Bkwormgirl
Sorry for the confusion bwg. My 3 was in the wrong place.
"Why is only John allowed to talk to Diotrephes?"
He's not. Read it again.
"Why doesn't John write a letter telling the rest to straighten up."
He did. AND other brothers visiting were not receieved into the church.
" It seems like John is going to handle it himself."
He is going to confront him IF he comes there. But remember what Dio was doing and that is the key to this whole thing. Messages were NOT getting through.
" The same passage you are using to support blogs, is reason many claim there should be no blogs."
Huh?
I guess we are in the same boat. Sometimes I don't know where you are coming from, either. :o)
Lin -
Sorry, John does not tell Gaius to do anything he says, IF I come I will address it. Additionally the other brothers were not received because they were speaking out against Diotrephes and Diotrephes does not want to deal with it. You are right, in this letter John does not call Diotrephes a false prophet, and I wonder why he doesn't. It seems he should, this man is doing little to promote the kingdom of God. Messages were not getting through is what you claim the point was, why then was Diotrephes not called a false teacher by John? Diotrephes was not doing the work of God, nor was he taking care of the messenger, so why does God not tell John to encourage to have him removed. I fear that is a painful truth that we must accept. God allows bad rules to stay in place for any number of reasons we do not know or understand. God's way are not our ways.
Allow me to be clearer. The very reason that you cite this passage according to your last post is to prove that what we are doing on the blog is correct. I think what we are doing on the blog is fine for many reasons. But I personally would not use III John as my source. However, there are people who say, John did not remove or encourage Gaius to start a verbal revolt. He simply assures Gaius that he knows the wrong thing is going on and tells Gaius to keep up the faith. They make the same argument toward blog authors. We should allow God to be God.
I think it is a little of both. My blogging does not stop God from being God. However, I also have to stand before God and give an account of what I have done and said on the blog. As a result, I continue to stand by my original position and point, which I have stated several times. Why aren't we going after the people who acted as the buffer and defender of PW. That would be a statement that would have far reaching affects.
And finally, feel free to ask Lin. I don't try to hide my position at all. Bet lets try to keep the accusations to a minimum. You have attacked me a couple of times and accused me several times of saying things that simply are not true.
bkwormgirl
"What about any of these plans has actually helped the majority of clergy abuse victims."
SNAP has over 8000 members and 65 support groups around the country. SNAP has helped a lot of people; no other organization that has done more. One of the things SNAP does, when it can, is to help people in finding counselors with experience in dealing with clergy sex abuse...because there is a learning curve on this for counselors. It's very sad to me that no leaders in the faith community have seen the need for this. One of the earliest things I asked of the Baptist General Convention of Texas was simply that they put together a referral list of counselors in the major cities of Texas who had experience in dealing with clergy sex abuse. They wouldn't do it. It wouldn't have cost them hardly anything, and it could have helped so many people, and they just wouldn't do it. So many Baptist clergy abuse victims turn to them for help that even a simple referral list could have at least given people a starting point for trying to get help...but no...the largest statewide Baptist organization in the country couldn't even do that much.
Start your organization up, bkwormgirl! There's a great need! Most clergy abuse survivors are NOT getting the level of counseling services that they desperately need.
I want to share what happened today.
I was at an event with a small group of women ( about 8) and this event was to last all day.
One of the women started talking about her responsibilities at her church, BBC.
It occured to me that now formerly attending BBC is polarizing. When asked where I attended church, I told them, but made no mention that i USED to attend BBC.
How would I began to explain to this woman ( and possibly others) WHY I cannot attend? They just live in their naive little world, where everyone at BBC is wonderful and leaders don't lie. It would have put me in the position of explaining Child Sexual Abuse, and having them put me down over it.
It wounded me to hear her speak so highly of BBC, when it was obvious that the PW thing was nothing to her.
If that was nothing to her, I"m sure she would view my own abuse as nothing, as many did when I was 14.
It just goes on and on. You can never get away from the hurt inflicted by others, who are living in their " bubble" ( as gmommy calls it) It is isolating. I could not join in much of the conversation for the entire day, because I knew that these people did not care about the sexual abuse of children.
If they did, they would not still be at BBC, smiling like Cheshire cats when talking about how wonderful SG is. I wanted to scream, " HE ALLOWED A PEDOPHILE TO ROAM FREELY AROUND THE BBC CHILDREN", but what good would it have done?
I now understand how people vote for the Ford family, regardless.They just stick their brain in the pocket, and do as they are told.
SOTL...
I understand so well the isolation you experienced. I'm so sorry.
As long as something doesn't affect them personally or cause then to have to change...they are happy to be in a coma when it comes to the pain of others.
What is happening in the SBC churches has put us back instead of move us forward. When you and I were in school...the teachers turned a blind eye to bruises and signs of sexual abuse. My High School teachers told me this.
With the unbelievable ways the SBC mnisters have responded to clergy sexual predators....the work done to educate people and protect the innocent has been knocked back 20 years....and one of the minister responsible for this will stand in the pulpit of BBC tomorrow and people will believe that he is someone to listen to...
someone to look up to.
PP will collect his praise and pad his pockets and go shoot animals on money made NOT speaking out against sexual abuse in our churches.
Paige Patterson has ENCOURAGED abuse in the Baptists churches.
SOTL -
I am so very sorry for the day you had. You are an incredibly strong woman who was willing to stay in the midst of that to achieve the purpose you set forth to achieve. I just wanted to offer to "stand" with you if you will allow me. I think that while we can debate the best way to address the problem of abuse and those who defend abusers - the greatest thing we can do for each other is to stand with them. When we unite among ourselves, at a minimum we strengthen each other.
Blessings to you.
Bkwormgirl
To bkwormgirl, STOTL, gmommy and any others on this blog who have suffered sexual abuse, I want to assure you that many of us who left BBC are aware of the magnitude of this terrible sin and the sin of those in leadership, and others, who continue to look the other way. The PW incident was one of the main reasons why we chose to leave the church that was such a major part of our lives. (It was not about the music!!) There is no excuse and the most grievous thing is to see those we held in such high esteem spiritually just continuing on as though it never happened - or it happened but is no big deal. It is a big deal to our HOLY God and His justice will prevail in the end.
Some years ago, an elderly lady missionary who had served in China during WWII told of her capture by the Japanese soldiers. While being imprisoned, she was raped numerous times. She made this statement I have never forgotten:
"My God comforted me with the words: 'Though they abuse your body, they can never touch My Spirit within you!'"
Sickofthelies,
I believe it is responsible to tell everyone who may be decieved that things are not always as they appear.
In the case of Bellevue, it is appropriate to state the facts about Steve Gaines and his band of men that protects him.
Bellevues leadership operating in secret (the way it has since the search committee selected Steve Gaines) needs to be talked about to warn any naive people that may fall into their trap to stay away and flee.
There is enough documentation out there for anyone that wants to know to search for themselves.
When people are silent concerning churches like Bellevue, they continue to operate in disguise. A lot of people trust the church blindly. Most church goers don't know enough of the Scripture to hold the pastor accountable.
When out and about, I don't hesitate to let people know Bellevue is not the real deal and there are many wonderful churches out there with pastors who are preaching the Word AND living the Word AND who love their sheep.
I will never stop speaking out against apostate churches.
SOTL: I am so sorry for the pain of that conversation and for the sense of isolation that your openness to the truth may sometimes bring to you. But as I read your comment, I couldn't help but think about how much some of you on this blog have in common with a group of people I sat with last weekend in Jacksonville, Florida. They were people who had opened their eyes to the truth of what happened at their own much-loved church, Trinity Baptist, and to the horror of senior pastor Tom Messer's continuing leadership. As I looked at the faces of those people in that room - all pretty ordinary-looking people - I pondered what it was about them that made them different from the thousands of others who still sit in the pews at Trinity. I wish I knew the answer to that, and I ponder the same question with you all. Why are you all able to see the awfulness of Gaines' continuing leadership of Bellevue... and others remain blind? For anyone who's interested, I blogged about the Jacksonville conference and the mystery of this question to me here.
On thing for sure... it was wonderful to sit in a room among a group of people who "got it" - who understood - who had open eyes. And I often think your blog here provides a similar sort of cyber-experience. As bwg says: "When we unite among ourselves, at a minimum we strengthen each other."
SOTL: I am so sorry. :(
Christa, Thank you for your post. What I have treasured about this blog is that the folks here "get" lots of things. They get how we need to be reverent in worship; they get how we need to let Jesus be the Head of the church, not the pastor; they get how much pain can be inflicted by Christians towards other believers ....
They "get" a lot.
What I don't "get" is how the leadership in the SBC, and the "good ole boys," DON'T "get" it. We read the same Bible, don't we?
ConcernedSBCer said:
"What I don't "get" is how the leadership in the SBC, and the "good ole boys," DON'T "get" it. We read the same Bible, don't we?"
oc says:
Same Bible. But what if I interpret the Bible as me being God? Or what if I'm someone who interprets it "better" than you?
Or someone just one step above you, because I went to seminary. Maybe.
I don't know about you. But I have decided. I am exiting 28 years of a loyal relationship, from my side anyway. Call me what you will, but I won't continue to live this lie. That was the problem in the first place, I was loyal to the SBC, and not loyal enough to the LORD. You all do what you think is best. I think there is a more excellent way.
jussayin'.
oc.
There are different reasons why some get what happened at BBC and some choose not to...
I can only speak from my experiences and knowledge.
For some of us...we understand being uncomfortable....our Kansas bubble was brutally burst before our sad betrayal from BBC. We can never pretend ....having a voice and saying what is real and wrong is not an option for us.
Yesterday, when my daughter read one of my posts...she emailed me and said to please not stay upset about all this because she feared the stress would do so much damage that I wouldn't be around to experience the joy my grand children would bring me. I told her if I stopped fighting I would die anyway.
My wounded brothers and sisters know what I mean. Sometimes it is hard just to try and be "normal". Not everyday...but many days are a battle to not fall in the hole.
We tried the "formula" to be good church people....it wasn't enough!
The cost to some of the people I know was too great for them to take a stand....their whole life is dependent on the relationships they have at BBC. I'm not mad at them anymore. What do I know about how their life feels?
The people I sat with when the bogus report was read... who I love dearly....KNOW SG's teaching is wrong...they KNOW the way he handled the PW crime was wrong. And even tho they saw me melt and crumble with each line read and were very sweet to me and love me....it's just too much to think and act like their friend DC is what he has shown himself to be....or to be outraged. It's almost like it's not "Christian" to be outraged?????
It's too much for them to think this goes any deeper than SG.
I will never understand why it was worse to them that Josh M recorded his meeting with DC...for self protection ...than it was for PW to be affirmed for his confession of molesting his own child....or that SG did not immediately take action and remove PW from his ministry position... at the very least.Never mind the way CW was treated and others.
That's a tiny piece of the puzzle. There are many.
I've said this before...here it is again....
if not for the wounds I carry....maybe I would have been too comfortable to be outraged and go against the "majority".
This experience has made me grateful...for the first time...to be who I am.
I am confident for the first time that He is reshaping this marred clay into a beautiful vessel for HIS glory and service.
Steve Gaines, Bellevue, and Rick Warren. Bring more and more of the world into the church to bring people in instead of preaching the Word and letting God build his church.
Bellevue will soon be replacing the world in the west entrance by the bookstore.
Here are the following changes that will take place very soon:
* The world which has symbolized world evangelism for Bellevue will soon be replaced with couches.
*Part of the bookstore will be reduced and replaced with a new coffee shop (out of rick warrens playbook)
*Library will be reduced in size as well to help accomodate the coffee shop.
*A new escalator will be installed where the big steps are now located.
*The reception counter will be replaced with signage that says "Boxoffice"
*Bellevue will continue to advertise and push the sale of tickets to make thier productions moneymakers.
*The new mall look will be more seeker friendly to the world.
*Look for the crosses to be coming down soon. There are many in leadership that have agreed they are very offensive to Memphis.
I am certainly of the belief that there will be many believers in heaven of all denominations. I certainly don't think Baptists have a monopoly on being believers!
We have had many just on this blog to choose to leave the SBC.
The sad thing is that I don't think the leadership cares about the corruption nor seems to want to do anything about it.
emptyseat,
Tell me your comments were meant to be sarcasm (or satire or whatever) and that you're not serious. If they make the library any smaller there's not going to be a library. It's about the size of a walk-in closet as it is.
Don't look now, but there's a woman teaching from the pulpit of Bellevue as I write this. And the earth hasn't come to an end!
Emptyseat..I just bet that when the powers to be decide it is time to take down the crosses, there will not be one word of protest from the membership. "Hear no evil, speak no evil, SEE NO EVIL."
I think y'all are just kidding, but I really don't think anyone's considering taking down the crosses. It doesn't help anyone to spread silly rumors.
NBBCOF,
I AM NOT KIDDING!
You will see as things develop over the next several months.
As far as the crosses go, I'm letting folks know before they spin their reasoning to hopefully stop them in their tracks before they try.
I'm still skeptical. I've heard too many wild stories like this before.
Does anyone ever wonder where the church keeps getting all their money? From the looks of the crowd yesterday (and "crowd" is an exaggeration), there are either a few rich benefactors keeping them up, they're cleaning out the coffers, and/or they're racking up a lot of debt. Either way, I don't see how they can keep it up indefinitely.
Ok, I've been thinking. ( I know, I know, it's dangerous)
It is particularly hurtful to me for people to know about the PW stuff and continue to be proud to attend BBC. In my estimation, if one STILL attends BBC, it should be done secretly, so no one will know that you are not offended by sexual pervetedness. It offends me when people talk about " "their church" ( BBC) as though there was nothing to be ashamed of.
In 1997 my 60 y/o mother was dying of cancer. In order to care for her, I drove from Memphis, TN to Jackson, MS every Wednesday and came home on Sunday for about 3 months. . . I took her to Germany for an ' alternative" cancer treatment ( at her request). The cancer eventually paralyzed her from the waste down and she was in diapers. I put up with UNTOLD atrocities by my brother while I was caring for her, until it became unbearable and we had to stealthy remove her from Mississippi to my home in Memphis.
A few years after she died, I learned that during her 5 year battle with cancer, she had been seeing her ex-husband, my perp. This was 22 years after the abuse.
You cannot possibly fathom the trauma I felt when I learned of this.
Do you see the correlation? She was not offended by the sexual abuse perpetrated upon her daughter by this man. She was able ( and willing) to overlook sexual pervetedness.
Were she still alive and had been in the BBC mess, I have no doubt that she would not have batted an eye about the PW crime. She, too, would have continued going to church there, unashamed.
Are these the kind of people that attend there now? If my own mother was able to overlook the crimes perpetrated upon her own daughter, I suppose that it is absolutely nothing for others to overlook the crimes by leadership at BBC upon a child that they did not know, and upon the unknown children who were put at risk by their crimes.
SOTL: It makes me want to cry. I don't understand that kind of thinking (or not thinking) where someone can IGNORE a horrendous act committed upon a child.
I don't understand the hold the pride for attending BBC still has over people. There is nothing to be proud of anymore.
SOTL: It makes me want to cry. I don't understand that kind of thinking (or not thinking) where someone can IGNORE a horrendous act committed upon a child.
I don't understand the hold the pride for attending BBC still has over people. There is nothing to be proud of anymore.
SOTL,
It is called active denial. I am so sorry for what you have endured. I had a situation where I worked that involved someone who was abusing a company expense account. When I became aware of it, I sought wise counsel. I was told that legally and morally I was bound to tell those in authority or I was just as guilty as the guilty party. However, those in authority did not want to know about it, and I was the one that ended up loosing my job over it. People would rather look the other way than to deal with these issues legally and morally. I guess it is a sign of the times and seasons we live in, no accountability, no integrity and no moral compass...from the pulpit to the pew.
NASS said...
"Does anyone ever wonder where the church keeps getting all their money? From the looks of the crowd yesterday (and "crowd" is an exaggeration), there are either a few rich benefactors keeping them up, they're cleaning out the coffers, and/or they're racking up a lot of debt. Either way, I don't see how they can keep it up indefinitely."
After the previous report on the significant decline in the interest income being earned on the church financial reserves, I suspect they are cleaning out the coffers...
To Sickofthelies,
What can I say?
I cannot beging to imagine what mental, emotional, spiritual and physical torture you have been through. The very person who is assigned by God to care for you and protect you and nurture you, has sinned so greviously against you. There is something so reprobate when motherhood is so perverted.
Then for you to have to make such a physical and mental sacrifice to take care of her, like you did, and find out she still had love or feelings for this "animal".
I pray our Father will continue to strengthen and bless you, far, far above all that you can comprehend and heal every fiber of your being.
It only proves the total depravity of men and the self seeking lusts of the ones who have turned their back on God. Your mother was self seeking and serving and abandoned her duty and the natural role of a mother. I'm so very sorry.
There is utterly no excise for those in authority and ESPECIALLY in a church, who consider themselves to be Christians, and who consider themself to be leaders, to allow the sinning reprobate protection and blame and not protect the victim! It is wickedness even greater than any other because it is being cloked and protected amd done whiled being wrapped up in the mantel of God! Christianity! Jesus! Believe me, these protectors of perverts and profane persecutors of victims believe in ANOTHER JESUS OF ANOTHER KIND.
SOTL,
Sweetie, I wish I could put my arms around you. I am speechless at what you wrote.
The combined attendance yesterday for both services was less than 3,500.
emptyseat wrote:
"The combined attendance yesterday for both services was less than 3,500."
Now, that I believe. That was painfully obvious.
SOTL,
Your heart is bigger than mine. My mother's response both as a child and later when I was an adult and blew the whistle on the generational abusers ...was not like the response you and I would have EVER given our children.
So hard to comprehend.
But because of the ONE who chose you to be His daughter....you were able to give the mother more love than she gave you. That's who you are....because of Him!!!!
The fact that you brought her into your home and cared for her is so precious...God saw...and I am sure it pleased Him!!!.....that's what matters.
I don't know if I could do the same for my mother.
I hate that you found out she betrayed you again...BUT....you acted out of a regenerated heart. Maybe she couldn't.
You did the right thing no matter what she did or didn't do for you....please have peace about that.
The combined attendance yesterday for both services was less than 3,500.
2:35 PM, February 18, 2008
It was that low with Patterson speaking? (Notice I did not say preaching)
You guys might want to check out this new posting in the Nashville Scene blog called "With Friends Like These..." It's about how Patterson and Gaines are switching off with speaking venues. And it allows for comments at the bottom.
Thank you, Christa. I've put a link to it on the front page, too.
The Nashville Sceen has long been a most liberal "rag" in Nashville, but I must give them kudos for exposing the pervert embracing behaviors of Paige Patterson and Steve Gaines as well as there 'I'll pay you big bucks if you pay me big bucks scheme'.
If a liberal news publication can "get it" and expose it, why cannot those who claim to be an obedient servant of the Lord?
Steve Gaines is so insecure about his position at Bellevue he looks silly trying to use any number he can throw out to the audience (especially listening audience) to try and bolster his position.
Yesterday, he said from the pulpit that 4,000 kids from 150 churches were at the church on Saturday at a youth rally, as they came to see him.
Meanwhile, in the auditorium that seats 6,500, there were 2,000 at the 9:30 worship hour (always the most attended). What does he think when he's at the pulpit looking at a mass of empty seats staring back at him?
I wonder what Paige Patterson thought when he saw 4,500 empty seats staring at him compared the days of Dr. Rogers when you couldn't find an empty seat?
It's not surprising the month of April is payback for Steve to go down to Southwest to preach. You can always count on a guest preacher at Bellevue now to have Steve over to his place within a short period of time.
Church money laundering is so sinful. Why the church can't put a stop to Steve Gaines continuing is beyond me.
SOTL...
You are exactly right! There is no shame within these people in their actions upon their victims. I have not been sexually abused, but I have abused by these people and with such tremendous force. The sad part is that they take such pleasure in hurting others. Words are inadequate in even discussing these issues. My heart breaks for you...may God bless you.
Ima
Thanks for your kind words, guys..
I guess it's the indifference, and in some cases, the scorn, to the suffering of those who have been abused that is so hurtful. The fact that people are still walking in the doors at BBC tells me that they are INDIFFERENT to the facts regarding PW and SG's harboring of him. What else could it be BUT indifference? If anyone has any thoughts on this, I would appreciate your response.
In the case of the other day at that event, I guess I just wasn't feeling strong enough to endure that woman's indifference and/or scorn to the victim in the CW crime. It becomes personal real quick.
Oh well, just to let ya'll know.i'm fine..My mother died 11 years ago, so I have dealt with what needs to be dealt with and I don't want anyone worrying about me.
I promised God 23 years ago that if he would give me children, I would be the best mother that I could possibly be. I feel that I can stand before him and tell him that I kept that promise. I have not been perfect, but my children are my life. Anyone that knows me or my children know this about me.
In the case of my mother, sometimes people can serve as an example, even if it is a bad one.
P.S.
I forgot to tell ya'll this:
God has blessed me BEYOND belief!! I am amazed at his mercy and his grace. I am in awe of his goodness!!!!
Please dont' ya'll worry about me. I'm good!!!
:)
Hey Folks--Many of you have talked about how you were mistreated when trying to approach leadership about a problem.
Guess what? That reaction by the powers to be has been around a long long time.Back when the kings ruled Europe, the only way to communicate from the battle field back to the king was by messenger. If a messenger brought bad news he was usually killed on the spot.
The king was in no mood for bad news, so the poor individual paid the price. That is exactly the same thinking today.
I was wondering how the SBC meeting of the committee to discuss whether discussion is needed about having a database for SBC ministers accused/comvicted of sexual abuse went.
So I looked up Christa Brown's blog, STOP BAPTIST PREDATORS.
This is her latest:
"“The Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention isn’t yet ready to respond” on the issue of creating a database of convicted, confessed and credibly accused clergy. The committee met yesterday, and that’s what EthicsDaily reported."
NOT READY TO RESPOND????
*Head Explodes*
*Too late for the duct tape*
With the recent story of Darrell Gillyard, you would think some positive PR would be in order.
I just can't comprehend......
concerned,
I N D I F E R E N C E
LOL!
Ok, so I misspelled it..
I'll try again:
I N D I F F E R E N C E
in·dif·fer·ence /ɪnˈdɪfÉ™rÉ™ns, -ˈdɪfrÉ™ns/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-dif-er-uhns, -dif-ruhns] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. lack of interest or concern: We were shocked by their indifference toward poverty.
2. unimportance; little or no concern: Whether or not to attend the party is a matter of indifference to him.
3. the quality or condition of being indifferent.
4. mediocre quality; mediocrity.
sickofthelies said...
concerned,
I N D I F E R E N C E
10:29 PM, February 20, 2008
Add to that Incompetence
So, how 'bout them Baptists, huh?
(Trying to start some conversation.)
So, how 'bout them Baptists, huh?
(Trying to start some conversation.)
11:31 AM, February 22, 2008
Well, friend, they are not looking so good.
Here are some highlights from an interview with Frank Cox the new SBC Pres candidate that Mohler endorsed:
http://sbctoday.com/2008/02/21/interview-with-dr-frank-cox/
You can listen here but beware, this blog LOVES Patterson, Vines, Brunson, etc. Thinks they are great leaders. Ignores the questionable stuff and anyone who asks questions is HORRIBLE.
HEre is a synopsis of the interview someone posted on SBC Outpost:
- He thinks the BFM2000 should be a minimum doctrinal standard, not a maximum.
- The Garner motion was confusing and in any event was not a clear mandate because it passed with “only” 58% of the vote.
- The trustee system is “tremendous.”
- We need to improve missions giving in SBC churches and also keep a focus on local evangelism.
- The gospel is for “all the people in all the world all the time.”
- Once a trustee board makes a decision, the debate is over. Dissenting views should be expressed only before the decision is made. After the decision is made, “unity” is important.
- The IMB trustees “acted as prudent as they could and should have” in how they dealt with Wade Burleson.
So, basically, he is one of the ingroup. Notice how UNITY is so important. That is unity that never disagrees with the leaders.
Seems his church is a huge player in the GA Baptist Convention. That same convention that passed that resolution about bloggers. Sheesh.
He seems to be the typical charismatic, motivating, handsome mega church preacher. His son is on staff and his wife holds positions in the GBA.
They all look like Joel Osteens to me anymore.
"He seems to be the typical charismatic, motivating, handsome mega church preacher. His son is on staff and his wife holds positions in the GBA.
They all look like Joel Osteens to me anymore."
Stepford leaders?
Lin,
I listened to the interview at the link you provided. I don't mean to be mean toward the interviewer (Peter Lumpkins) -- he may very well be a great guy, and this is purely just a personal opinion with no real reason I can discern -- but listening to Peter Lumpkins' voice gives me the same feeling as hearing fingernails on a chalk board.
Regarding Al Mohler's endorsement of Frank Cox, it says at least as much about Mohler as it does about Cox. Mohler is a vocal Calvinist, and Cox is definitely not. But Cox's comments anout the BF&M and the Garner Motion indicate that Cox shares Mohler's belief that the Southern Baptist leadership elite should be able to override the expressed will of the Convention membership. Thus it is appears that Mohler is more concerned about having an SBC President whose Convention politics are beneficial to Mohler than one that shares his doctrinal convictions.
Junk, as usual, you are quite perceptive. Doctrine seens to take a back seat.
By the way, since when does anyone think 58% is not a great margin to pass anything? We consider that a landslide in politics.
Is the SBC split into two factions? The "good old boys" and the moderates?
concerned asked:
"Is the SBC split into two factions? The "good old boys" and the moderates?"
I have a definition and concept of "good old boys". Please define moderates as used in your question.
concernedSBCer said...
Is the SBC split into two factions? The "good old boys" and the moderates?
I don't think that the issues these days are so much over one's stand on the Bible, as was the case in the Conservative Resurgence, when the labels of "conservative" (or fundamentalist) and "moderate" (or liberal) were typicaly applied. These days it seems most Southern Baptists would call themselves conservatives and inerrantists, and those who were truly theologically moderate/liberal have moved on to other things (like the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship). So the old labels don't seem to apply as well as they once did.
I would say that the real struggle these days is against the "legalists" (who want to impose very narrow interpretations regarding second and third level doctrines onto others, and who refuse to cooperate in ministry, missions, evangelism, etc. with those who disagree on those matters) and the "cooperatists" (I just made that word up, but by it I mean those who believe the doctrines held in common by all evangelical Christians to be the most important and that other doctrines should not be part of the basis for cooperation in ministry, missions, evangelism, etc.)
Unfortunately, it seems that currently most of the "good old boys" (those in power) are more legalists than cooperatists.
Okay, good question Lily. When I think of Moderates, I think of the Joel Osteen types...the ones that don't stand on tranditional, conservative values because they want to please everyone. However, I think that's probably a faulty definitation.
Lin, I see what you are saying. But I find it confusing because I see PP as being a legalist on SOME issues yet completely freely ignoring others (like pastor sexual abuse). His, and those in his "group," seem to be contradictory.
Lin said: ""cooperatists" (I just made that word up, but by it I mean those who believe the doctrines held in common by all evangelical Christians to be the most important and that other doctrines should not be part of the basis for cooperation in ministry, missions, evangelism, etc.)"
When I think of those like this, I think of the Joel Osteens....the "don't say anything that might upset anybody" kind of pastors. Is that what you mean?
Tell me, what benefits derive from being in the SBC other than the way it funds missionaries?
To me, with the abuses, the ignorance of abuse, the delay to institute justice concerning abuses, and the demeaning of women, not to mention a growing doctrinal and theological straight jacket, I see no reason to be a member of the SBC. The liabilities are fast overcoming the assets of being associated with the convention.
I'm on my way out of there.
Can you tell I'm not a Joel Osteen fan? Sorry.........
Junk said:
"cooperatists" (I just made that word up, but by it I mean those who believe the doctrines held in common by all evangelical Christians to be the most important and that other doctrines should not be part of the basis for cooperation in ministry, missions, evangelism, etc.)"
oc says:
I reckon that I'm one of those. Call me a "cooperatist", after you call me a Christian. And don't forget to call me brother also.
When I think of those like this, I think of the Joel Osteens....the "don't say anything that might upset anybody" kind of pastors. Is that what you mean?
7:36 PM, February 22, 2008
No. I mean slick, expensive suits, coiffed hair, TV personality, great speakers, movers and shaker types.
They are more CEO than lowly, humble follower of Christ servants. they are in the top 10% of income earners and all you will hear from their followers is how sincere, smart they are and what great men they are.
I am sick of them in ministry. they remind me flim flam men.
"Lin, I see what you are saying. But I find it confusing because I see PP as being a legalist on SOME issues yet completely freely ignoring others (like pastor sexual abuse). His, and those in his "group," seem to be contradictory."
Joel Osteen was not a good comparison. Because the types I am talking about are legalistic for their pet secondary doctrines like comp or authority.
They are all playing CEO.
Watch carefully what happens to your "competence of the soul" and the "priesthood of the believers" doctrines. Slavery begins when those doctrines diminish.
Jussayin'.
oc.
OC. Obnoxious Cooperatist. Hey, works for me! :)
Lin said: "No. I mean slick, expensive suits, coiffed hair, TV personality, great speakers, movers and shaker types.
They are more CEO than lowly, humble follower of Christ servants. they are in the top 10% of income earners and all you will hear from their followers is how sincere, smart they are and what great men they are."
Okay, I got you now. I, too, long for the servant pastors, the pastors that put their calling above anything else. I wonder where that mightset has gone for many pastors (not all of them, thank goodness.)
Lin: In the post that originated this response (Joel Osteen was not a good comparison. Because the types I am talking about are legalistic for their pet secondary doctrines like comp or authority) I was thinking Joel Osteen to be sort of my definition of a moderate because I don't see him as standing firm on the Word. I see him as sugar-coating everything to make everyone happy. I certainly don't see him as a legalist.
But maybe we are getting confused! Let's drop our good friend Joel!
I guess I'm just confused because I see a paradox in the SBC now.....the PPs who want to go back 100 years, and the RWs who want to forget 2000 years and just make everyone happy.
concernedsbcer,
You're confusing me by quoting me and attributing it to Lin.
To clarify, what I meant was there are those (whom I called legalists) who make big issues out of lesser doctrines and those (whom I called cooperatists) who put working together for the cause of Christ and His kingdom before their pet doctrines. I would not put Osteen in the "cooperatist" category because he is more about "unity" around "feel good doctrines" than about truly spreading God's kingdom.
This is always the problem with labels, whether it be conservative or moderate or liberal or fundamentalist or legalist or Calvinist or inerrantist or even Christian ... anyone can claim to be anything (like a certain well-known moderate Republican presidential candidate who now calls himself the true conservative candidate) and anyone can call someone else something. That's why it is so important to dig deeper and learn what someone really believes and see how well it lines up with God's Word.
Word Verification: ditzzey (for dictionary definition, see "Lin")
:)
My dear Junkster: Please accept my humble apology for attributing your brilliance to someone else! Lin, of course, is brilliant in her own right!
Please impart some grace as it has been a very long week (I had worked 33 hours from Sat. morning just to Monday night...and still had the week to go!!!) and I declare.....I'm just not seeing straight!
Ok, so now I have three major categories of SBC ministers:
(1) Legalists: those who insist everyone agree with them on every little point of doctrine in order to be considered a good enough Christian for them to work together in ministry with (example: Patterson)
Compromisists: those who de-emphasize or water down key Christian doctrines in order to grow churches by making them appealing to non-Christians (example: Warren).
Cooperatists: those who hold strong to key biblical doctrines but are willing to set aside differences on lesser doctrines for the sake of true Christian unity and spreading the true gospel (example: Burleson).
How's that?
concernedsbcer,
No apology needed. And grace abounds.
Junkster: I like it. I can live with it.
It's a shame, but there it is.
So where does Osteen fit? :-)
JO is a motivational feel good speaker...not a minister
concernedsbcer,
Is Osteen Southern Baptist? Either way, I say he is in the same group as Warren.
Good point, GMommy.
Okay, Junkster, I can live with that too!
what in the world is SG??????
gmommy said...
what in the world is SG??????
Ahhh, that's the 500,000 dollar question, isn't it?
:)
I see SG as a good ol boy...But what does he really believe ??
Maybe what is convenient at the moment?
I think that's what bothers about some of these guys.....they stand up when it's the "in" thing or easy....but if it goes against the tide....they don't.
And with the Warren crew......they only teach part of the Bible, it seems to me.....the part that makes everyone happy with themselves.
gmommy said...
I see SG as a good ol boy...But what does he really believe ??
And that's the $500,000 plus a church credit card question ...
"Word Verification: ditzzey (for dictionary definition, see "Lin")"
Har dee har har. :o) (I KNEW I should not have mentioned Joel)
"Watch carefully what happens to your "competence of the soul" and the "priesthood of the believers" doctrines. Slavery begins when those doctrines diminish."
These are several of the issues that get discussed. I had no idea until a few months ago that there was a big brouhaha over Priesthood of Believer. For some reason Al Mohler insisted they had to put an 's' on the end of believer for the BFM 2000.
Makes me nervous.
Read this article and then explain to me what Mohler is really getting at:
http://www.baptiststandard.com/2000/7_17/pages/bfm_meaning.html
Junk, I like your category but would break down the legalists into two sub categories:
Fundy-strict legalist...drive beat up buicks
CEO-strict legalists on pet secondary doctrines, have power, inflence and are high earners
Joel Osteen is the 'churchy' equivalent of Mr. Rogers. Same character, different neighborhood.
The True Church Conference is ongoing in Muscle Shoals...have been attending. Paul Washer, Jay Adams, David Miller, and Jeff Noblit.
Timmy Brister is blogging live and you can read it all on True Church Conference.
Ima: EXCELLENT.
:-)
"Joel Osteen is the 'churchy' equivalent of Mr. Rogers. Same character, different neighborhood."
Yep. And just wait for the intro of Mr. McFeely, coming to a church near you. Or maybe he's already been there. And maybe the pastor has harbored Mr McFeely, even knowing that he is also a friend of Captain Kangaroo, who harbored Mr Green Jeans. Hmmmm.
And the beat goes on.
It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood.... a beautiful day for the SBC, would you be mine..
or should you grow a spine...
I am grieved and frustrated over the dumbing down of the church, the apathy that is so prevelant today in the body of Christ, the preminence of music over the written Word in church services, the "Let us entertain you" form of "worship", the Rick Warren strategy of bring 'em in and get 'em saved and then keep 'em in by appealing to their flesh instead of their spirit, the lack of discernment among many church members today, the Southern Baptist churches following suit after other denominations that have gone to the wayside, spiritual leaders who "lord it over the flock" and do not have the heart of servant-leaders, etc. etc. etc. We can't fix any of this but we can stay strong and focused in the midst of it by being much in prayer and in the Word. Jesus is our plumb line in the midst of spiritual chaos and confusion. "He is Lord! He is Lord! He is risen from the dead and He is Lord. Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."
"Wherefore, God has highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name. That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow...And every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord..."
(Phil. 2:9-11)
32+,
I don't really call it "dumbing down" but think it more accurately called "falling away". Is it the great one? I don't know. But it looks pretty big to me.
Israel did it too. From all accounts, He didn't like it much when they did it. Reckon he likes it any more today?
I work with the daughter of a preacher. We were just discussing Osteen the other day. She agrees that Osteen is full of it.
There is a time for everything. (Ecclesiastes ch. 3).
Maybe the SBC has accomplished the purpose God had for it. Maybe the time for the SBC has elapsed.
And I think it has, and is imploding in on itself because it struggling to live beyond it's appointed time. Many trusted it, and it then started trusting itself. It has become its own god.
Maybe we are dragging a dead body around, just hoping it will take one more breath. We leaned on that body too much for too long, and if it isn't as good a friend to Jesus as Lazarus was, well, shall we wait on another chance?
I wouldn't hold my breath.
Blog friends,
Please be in prayer for Padroc. If yo didn't get an email or need info please contact Nass. We really want to pray and support this dear friend.
32 said: "the apathy that is so prevelant today in the body of Christ"
Amen. It is unfathomable to me. And I see the same apathy in the heart of pastors and leaders. How can that be?
Concerned and All...Your post is a good one to follow up with what I have posted below. NBBCOF, you will forgive me I hope for using so much space for this, but I find it compelling and fitting for this blog.
I am just home from the True Church Conference at First Baptist Muscle Shoals (Jeff Noblit's church)and Paul Washer finished up tonight with the following sermon. If you ever get a chance to see the DVD of this, do it. His passion in the delivery of this was overwhelming...tears streaming down his face at times. I have never seen any minister deliver a sermon with the passion and fire Paul Washer delivers with...not a dry eye in the house when he finishes, including his own. This, of course, was addressed to pastors and leadership...and how fitting this will be here since so many visit this site. Regardless, this sermon will benefit anyone pastor or not. At the end, I was simply without words...it isn't possible to add anything, other that to say I hope you will take the time to read it. This was taken from Timmy Brister's blogsite...I posted it earlier today. You can read all the messages delivered there and tomorrow Jeff Noblit's Sunday morning service will be added to it. I pray for humility...and that all will fall on their knees in search for the face of God! I pray that the circus acts in today's
so-called' churches implemented by false teachers will succumb to the mighty power of God, will repent and we can see as a result a return to Christianity, true Christianity. My words are so inadequate to fully and truly describe what is in my heart. Here is Bro. Paul's sermon from earlier tonight:
"Our job is to bring the Bride home. We have been a great task, that is, a passionate love for the Bride of Christ, and the working with all our heart to bring her home and present her spotless and chaste. To this we give our lives, that Jesus Christ might be pleased with the one upon whom he has pledged His love. The battle is very difficult, and it is hard. It is on everyside; we were born and bred for every battle. This is what we are supposed to be doing. This is not the time for small hearts; a time for leisure. This is a time for men, the men of God, to take their place and work and labor and suffer and die for the church.
We are talking about missions tonight, but we must begin somewhere else–with the church of Jesus Christ, because the only way to do biblical missions is to through a biblical church. We must do everything according to Scriptures. It is true. The door is open more than ever before. I think about the countries that have not been reached, but if we are going to walked through the door, we must do it biblically. We must return to Scripture, not the methodologies of men.
First, I want to talk about finding the church, in other words, stopping the slander. If you want to be endeared to me, then treat my wife with the greatest respect. If you want to be on my bad side, then slander my wife. The accusation of infidelity and immorality is the hindrance in the work of missions.
“The name of God is blasphemed among you” - those who do not know God
It is argued that the church of Jesus Christ has always been full of sinful, idolatrous people, proof-texted by the idolatry of Israel, and using Corinthians as the standard for NT Christianity. Then we have experts who tell us over and over that there is little difference between the actions of the church and the actions of a fallen world. We hear experts that there is just as much immorality in the church as there is in the world. I am here to tell you that angers me because it is a lie. The experts do not even know what the church is. The church today is absolutely beautiful, and I will have words for anyone who says anything else. Because we are talking about Christ’s bride.
The church is in a process of sanctification. Yes she has her weaknesses; yes she has failings. Our bride is broken and humble and believing her master, and she is following him and being changed by him in a way that exalts the power of God in salvation. We are calling Christian that which is not Christian, and it has led to the slandering of the bride of Jesus Christ. Because of our watered-down view of the gospel, our superficial views of regeneration and conversion, because we believe that God is enough to save from the condemnation of sin but not enough to save from the power of sin.
It is not the fault of a liberal political party; it is the fault of pastors. Even conservative, fundamental pastors.
If you are going to carry this title, then it is going to cost you. This is not a place for men of leisure or care more for self-preservation than the glory of God. The true church of Jesus Christ is beautiful, but she is hidden under a twisted mess called American Christianity, and if the world is going to know true Christianity, it needs to see a true church. We need to cut a way all that contrary to a true church.
TEXT: Jeremiah 31:31-35
An Old Testament view of the New Testament church
Here we see the doctrine of regeneration–a doctrine that is lost in our regeneration. Salvation is the supernatural work of God whereby the person regenerated becomes a new creature by the power of God. That regenerate heart is where God writes His law, fixed inside of them which will guide them, control them, and change them.
There is nothing just hopeful about this passage. God does not hope that they will act like His people. We mistake many times by interpreting something as promise when it is a reality. God is going to create a new people and change their heart. This will happen. There is not a remnant in the church; the church is the remnant. Everybody in the church has God as their God, and we are His people.
They will not know God because of apologetical arguments or reasons why Jesus is raised from dead, but because God will open their hearts and bear witness to His own glory. He will grant them supernaturally the Spirit of God, and their minds will be illumined, and they will know the things of God. Everyone truly converted will understand the essential things of God in their salvation. One of the essential things is this:
The one thing they will know is that they are forgiven; they are God’s, and they are forgiven.
The lack of church discipline and the doctrine of the continuously carnal Christian has slandered the church of God and ruined her testimony.
Today, because men do not study their Bibles and do not study God’s Word, look at a mass of worldly, carnal people, and say that God is among them, and that is not true! When you look at the real bride, you see a bride. You see someone who hears the Master’s voice and follow Him. Isn’t it amazing that a normality today that the reason why Christians are not being Christians is because we are not discipling enough. It is not that they need discipling. They need to be converted.
“I will give them one heart and one way . . .”
Over the years, if I had one dime how many times I have heard about the lack of unity in the body of Christ, I would be a millionaire. Either the NT covenant promise has failed, or the prayer of Jesus in John 17 has failed. I want to tell you something: the church of Jesus Christ in this world today is one. She is united, and her members love one another. If you are hating one another, you are not Christian. We are one.
I am tired of seeing the bride of Jesus Christ slandered. I have heard preachers say that the bride of Christ in America acts like the prostitute. No she isn’t! She is beautiful! If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature. This is so important because in it we see the reputation and glory of Christ in the church. Muslims laugh at Christianity, for they see Christians who have turned salvation into a matter of mockery.
“I will make an everlasting covenant with them . . .”
God is not a derelict father. He does not have children that he does not care for and does not discipline. We do not have a poor heavenly Father.
Let’s talk about the “once saved always saved.” Look what we do. We look at only one side of the coin. We fail to tell them that God will “put the fear of God in their hearts so that you will not turn away from Him.” If there no fear of God in your heart to keep you, you are not in God’s covenant of salvation. God will rejoice over them and to do them good. He will do it will all His heart and all His soul and will perfect His bride.
Because we no longer believe these things, the name of God is blasphemed among the nations. Not because of the church, but because the wheat is hidden among the tares, the fruit of God’s vineyward is overgrown with bushes and the vine is entangled and strangled with weeds. How has this happened?
Who is called to look after the bride of Christ? To present her as chaste? Is is not the ministers? As ministers of God, we seem to be preoccupied with everything but that which is most precious to God–His bride.
Very few churches are built today asking God what kind of church he wants; we ask carnal people what kind of church they want. Throughout the years and on our watch gentleman, the gospel has been reduced to an evangelical ritual, four spiritual laws and five things to learn, to say yes, a superficial view of conversion and assurance, trusting in a prayer and not in a risen Savior.
The kingdom has been built on the bones of unconvered sinners. The church is slandered for crimes she has never committed. We doubt the sufficiency of Scriptures and turn to the false fire of church growth and man’s methodologies. We adapt our ministries and the ministry of the church to cater to the carnal majority, and the precious lambs go unfed.
In most places, the church functions as a democracy, and the majority rules. The majority is usually carnal; the carnal determine the direction of the church and becomes vanity fair and six flags over Jesus. Over the corner, the weak, anemic, and neglected is the bride of Christ. All she wants is her husband. All she longs for is to hear words from Him. She doesn’t need entertainment or a circus. She doesn’t need self-esteem.
I have seen so many people languish because the pastor will not stand against the carnal majority because of self-preservation. Do you remember when the Word of God was lost in the Temple? The bride of Christ has been lost in this circus of American Christianity. It does not have to be this way.
What is the cure? Intercessory prayer. Have we forgot to pray? Battles are won by God. Show me your knees. Would you dare roll up your pants legs and show me your knees. Show me your Bible. Show me the stains on the pages as you have wept over the text, that the power of God might fall on your ministry.
Missions is not about sending missionaries. No man in Peru needs your life. It’s about sending truth through missionaries, otherwise it becomes nothing but a peace corps. 95% of the time, mission conferences is about methodology and strategy. But what about the message? It’s the message! It’s the gospel, and we must preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. We must have it burning in our hearts and lived out in our lives.
You will not be anathema if you did not plant churches, but you will be anathema if you did not preach the true gospel.
One of the greatest contributions Calvin ever gave the church is, alongside the offices of Christ: “How can we walk into a place where no one even knows where Jerusalem is and expect men to be saved. Calvin said, “Because the Spirit of Almighty God will bear witness to our words. God will bear witness to his own message and validate the gospel.
God delights to vindicate His gospel!
Missions is founded upon Scripture. We must believe they are sufficient, and therein lies the problem of the conservative movement. That means we do not have to go the anthropologist and sociologist; if we want to know how to do missions, we go to the Book.
2 Timothy 3:15 - to find salvation, we find it in the Scriptures, wisdom leading to salvation! I believe that if I open this book and explain it as I ought, the Spirit will work on men’s hearts, and men will be saved.
We have Aristotle and Freud walking through the church more than Paul? What has Jerusalem to do with Athens? Go back to the Book! Everything you need is found in this Book. It is sufficient, and if you don’t believe that, you don’t believe nothing. Everything you believe about inerrancy is rot if you do not believe that it is sufficient.
There has never been a time that the door as been so open for missions. Countries that 1500 years ago, 10 years ago no one has ever dreamed would be open. We are the most privileged people on the face of the earth. The opportunity to live for something worth dying for, to live for our Master, to have the great joy on the day when all the children are gathered home!
Live for that day when that great Bride of Jesus will be with her Bridegroom, when everything is brought to fruition, a bride from every tribe, every tongue, every nation before the throne worshiping the Lamb who was slain!
I am overwhelmed, not by the lostness of the world, not by guilt, but by privilege–that God would raise people like us up from the dungheap.
One of the most horrible things about preaching is that you walk out of the pulpit and you have failed. The gospel is too big; God’s glory is too big; Christ is too great. I remember praying at the hotel one night in tears, “God let me preach Jesus Christ as He really is.” I remember the Lord replying to me, “Even then, you will not preach them as you ought.” "
"In most places, the church functions as a democracy, and the majority rules. The majority is usually carnal; the carnal determine the direction of the church and becomes vanity fair and six flags over Jesus."
This is not at all what I have witnessed. I have witnessed most churches (mega's) being run by a few (elders) men (or around the personality cult of ONE man) and the congregation is the audience.
These few men decide everything and want power and control. we are seeing this more and more out there. I think congregtational polity is actually the better way. There are quite a few godly people out there who would not be considered for chruch leadership because they do not 'look the part'. I get very nervous when power is vested in a few. And I get very nervous when pastors focus too much on church 'authority'. The NT church did not have a strict heirarchical structure...as much as some pastors would like for us to think it did. We are a Holy Priesthood. (elders are simply the spiritually mature and I cannot find a distinction of clergy/laity in the NT. Everyone in the Body is gifted)
I agree with everything else he said.
Lin...
In my case, should say 'our' case...majority did rule. This worked through the deacons and pastor...the problem was (and is) that the church followed them (the majority in leadership), lies and all. I find that the people in the church blindly follow the pastor, truth totally disregarded. The situation is the same at Bellevue in my opinion. The majority follows the lead of 'man', not God. I pray that at some point these apostate churches will be able to differentiate between the two...and repent. And as am area of interest, I'd like to add that so many of the votes taken in these so called business meetings (in these Warrenite churches) are predetermined...the outcome is assured for the leadership.
One other thing on this subject...in our personal situation the majority was definitely carnal.
From the sermon Ima posted:
"The church is in a process of sanctification. Yes she has her weaknesses; yes she has failings. Our bride is broken and humble and believing her master, and she is following him and being changed by him in a way that exalts the power of God in salvation. We are calling Christian that which is not Christian, and it has led to the slandering of the bride of Jesus Christ. Because of our watered-down view of the gospel, our superficial views of regeneration and conversion, because we believe that God is enough to save from the condemnation of sin but not enough to save from the power of sin.
It is not the fault of a liberal political party; it is the fault of pastors. Even conservative, fundamental pastors."
This bears repeating, and repeating and repeating. Just like we have false teachers, there are false Christians. And they are giving all of us a bad name and reputation.
This is good too:
"I have seen so many people languish because the pastor will not stand against the carnal majority because of self-preservation. Do you remember when the Word of God was lost in the Temple? The bride of Christ has been lost in this circus of American Christianity. It does not have to be this way."
I wonder why pastors think we have to have a circus? The Word and preaching the Word has stood alone for centuries. Matthew 7:14:
"But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." I don't think we should "keep the Word to ourselves" but I think we have to understand that not everyone is going to believe. It's VERY sad, but true, and stated upfront. So we should not pollute the church with the circus. We should be feeding believers MEAT and equipping them NOT to be like the world.
Judgment. Sure is easy. I'm seeing it all the time now. But won't we be surprised later. How many of us think others are going to Hell because of "you said this, you did that"? And what about this, "I have figured it all out, and I am listening to 'so and so' and he has all the answers. Follow him". And if you don't, then you aren't a genuine Christian?
That is just another slick way of being 'lost'. It only feels good.
He has given us the Holy Spirit, yet we rely on "so and so" to guide our souls? Please!
And just because others don't agree with us, or rather our interpretation of what God has said, it doesn't mean they are all Hell bound. It may mean that we are instead.
You know, we all get all get bound up with how 'holy' we are. We aren't. We are just sinners saved by grace. Our 'holiness' is only found in Him. Only by His grace. That is it. No one else.
If I am going to follow any one else other than Him, I might as well choose Fred Flintstone.
Yabba Dabba Doo.
oc.
Ima, the following was on the live blogging site and caught my eye. Do you remember them talking about this during the Q&A on church discipline?
Have you read this document? I am curious what all is in it.
Noblit: We do ask that people sign a church covenant before joining the church body. A person needs to understand the responsibilities of members. Also we had a lawsuit in the church, and the lawyers recommended that we explain in our covenant the responsibilities of a church in discipline.
"Our bride is broken and humble and believing her master, and she is following him and being changed by him in a way that exalts the power of God in salvation."
oc says:
That is part of the problem. It is not "our bride". It is HIS Bride. And WE are His Bride. Anyone see a problem with this? Something is not right here. IMO.
"In most places, the church functions as a democracy, and the majority rules. The majority is usually carnal; the carnal determine the direction of the church and becomes vanity fair and six flags over Jesus."
Ima, when I wrote this, I had to wonder if they think most of FBCMS is carnal?
The scriptures teach that all true believers have 'anointing'. there is not reason for a few men to make all the decisions regarding the body. When Paul wrote to the churches to deal with things, he did NOT write to just the elders. He wrote to the whole church to deal with it. He wanted the majority to be in agreement on these things and seeking the Holy Spirit together.
Lin said:
"The scriptures teach that all true believers have 'anointing'. there is not reason for a few men to make all the decisions regarding the body. When Paul wrote to the churches to deal with things, he did NOT write to just the elders. He wrote to the whole church to deal with it. He wanted the majority to be in agreement on these things and seeking the Holy Spirit together."
oc says:
A Big fat AMEN!
AMEN from me too!
Preach it, Sister Lin!
:)
Where is everyone? In mourning after Saturday's game??
I know I am.
:-(
But I have my own thoughts about it!!! I STILL think U of M should be #1. They still have the best record and are #2 in the RPI. I guess April 7 is the only day that really matters, though.
Back to regular programming.
I don't know where anyone else is, but I have been out shopping for a Commodors T-shirt.
Last year, after they won whatever it was they won, ( I don't keep up with that stuff) my daughter's tuition went up $400 for an
'athletic fee'
I'm sorry to report to you all that when they lost, I gave a sigh of relief...I have another child that will most likely go there in about 3 years...and if they keep winning, i'm not sure I can afford it. :(
Whatever.
To the REAL UT. Hook 'em Horns!!!
Listen. A coworker did not come to work today. Because the Tigers did not win. GET A GRIP.
I'm sure your kid will understand why you aren't providing his next meal. It's because U of M lost a game. I'm sure his tummy will understand that. Get a grip people.
Ez,
I got an extra Long Horns shirt coming.
Jussayin'.
:)
From Lin:
tonight, I was looking for something on the internet and accidently came upon this:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004020898_webmarshill18m.html
There are many things that have bothered me about Driscoll for sometime. His anger, cutting remarks, disrespect toward women (what he said about pastors wives) and cussing. He is the darling of the reformed movement. But, after reading this, I did a bit more checking and it seems he put the authority for the church into the hands of 4 other men and himself. He uses the excuse that it was becoming to big to have so many elders. (Hogwash. I heard the same thing at the mega)
We are seeing more and more abuse of authority and a misunderstanding of what authority is. These 2 pastors were fired for speaking out. I found a blog about this, too. But it there is little on it except calling for his repentance and showing youtube videos with Driscoll teaching about church discipline which he himself did not follow. It seems the 'trial'
of these two men was a sham and gave them no chance to provide their defense.
Now, what he did sounds a lot like what happened at BBC. He even changed the by laws!
When are people going to stop following men?????
More info from Lin:
http://riseandfallofmarshill.blogspot.com/2008/01/annotated-update-1107-bylaws-of-mars.html
See TOC on the right hand side menu.
Hey, Driscoll has his own secret entrance to Mars Hill! so did my mega church pastor! He never had to see anyone!
It is falling apart out there guys. the true shepards will be nobodies with calloused knees. The worldly christians will not recognize them. they won't know while they are busy following their celebs around.
These poor bloggers don't get it. They are wanting the fired pastors to approach Piper and Mahaney to mediate a church wide trial so the fired pastors can get a decent hearing and the membership will know what happened! yeah right. They are too busy speaking at each others conferences, etc.
By the way, the fired pastors were 'older' guys. Not in their 20's like the rest of the elders and Driscoll, etc.
Response from Junkster to Lin:
Lin,
I read the links you provided, including the Mars Hill church bylaws (yup, the whole thing). This is truly scary stuff. It is setting up for institutionalized abuse, with no recourse whatsoever.
I don't know how so many Baptists and independent churches have gotten this strange and unbiblical idea that elders are the ruling or governing body of a church, rather than the church as a whole congregationally governing itself. Perhaps in Baptist life it is the influence of the Reformed movement, and along with a Reformed doctrine of salvation (strong emphasis on election and predestination, etc.) they are adopting Reformed views of church government. Although the early Southern Baptist leaders were indeed clearly Reformed in their soteriology (doctrine of salvation), they most definitely were not Reformed in their ecclesiology (doctrine of the church).
Until recently, I considered differences of ecclesiology to be matters of indifference -- I didn't think it really mattered, and that one form of church government was pretty much as biblical and acceptable as any other. But having since been a member of churches that are elder-ruled (that is, governed by a small group of men rather than by agreement of the whole body), I now see the wisdom and importance of the historic Baptist principle of congregational church government.
Not only are there practical considerations (such as the potential for abuse of authority inherent when a small group that is not legally and morally accountable to the larger congregation), but there are other theological considerations as well (the important doctrines of priesthood of the believer, soul-competency, and even perspicuity of Scripture are all too easily dismissed in an elder-rule system).
None of this is to say that having multiple elders is wrong or that I would never be part of a church with elders, but I am very wary of giving money to an organization that has no accountability to those funding it. And the system set up in the Mars Hill by-laws is the least accountable and most ripe for abuse that I have ever seen.
Lin asked:
Junk, is the SBC becoming Presbyterian? the internet monk had a very interesting post about visiting his alma mater SBTS and what is in the bookstore. http://www.sbcoutpost.com/
I don't agree with him a lot but he makes some very good points on this one. It seems the reformed movement is going Hollywood, too in a way. Celebrities preachers, huge book sales, busts of old dead guys, puritan stuff selling like hot cakes. We are doing the exact same stuff the seekers are doing when it comes to money and marketing. Same guys speaking at conferences for each other.
They have set up their own buddy system just like the Warren/Hybels/Blanchards have.
Junk replied:
Lin,
I think there those of the Reformed movement in SB life who think that the only difference between Presbyterians and Baptists are their views on baptism. I highly respect many Presbyterian pastors and theologians, but I think the differences are greater than that. I could see myself attending a Presbyterian church, though, because the areas in which I differ from standard Presbyterian theology are not that much greater than the areas I disagree with Baptist theology. Reminds me of an old professor of mine who used to tell of an old Puritan minister who would say to his wife, "They are all wrong, my dear, all of them but thee and me. And thou are a little wrong." :)
OC,
Ok, that explains the brotherly hostility then.
Go Aggies!
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