This article from the Nashville Scene by Elizabeth Ulrich takes a long, hard look at the problem of sexual abuse in the SBC and the SBC leadership's continuing refusal to deal with the problem.
It seemed likely last summer when the SBC voted to appoint a committee to "study" the problem that it was little more than a means of temporarily appeasing the critics while those in leadership continue to turn a blind eye to the problem. And now... it sounds as if that really is all there was to it.
SBCOutpost has a discussion of the article here.
February 18th: New article in the Nashville Scene.
Update: Paige Patterson is scheduled to preach at Bellevue Sunday morning, February 17th. Steve Gaines is scheduled to speak at the SWBTS chapel on April 17th. If it bothers you that these men, who have willfully ignored the problem of pedophile/sexual predator ministers in the SBC, are continuing to make the lucrative speaking circuit rounds, then let your voice be heard! Contact the media in Memphis and the SBC. This seems to be the SBC's answer to the problem -- a single page of links to outside agencies and resources.
Channel 3 (CBS)
Channel 3 Press Releases
Channel 5 (NBC)
Channel 13 (FOX)
Channel 24 (ABC)
Channel 24's Jeni DiPrizio who did the "Preacher Pads" report.
Commercial Appeal
James Dowd with the CA.
Wendi Thomas with the CA.
Submit a letter to the editor of the CA.
The Baptist Press
And while you're at it, you may want to drop a line to the pastor and pastor of students of the church that PW now is reported to be attending and ask them just how certain they are that their women and children are safe!
Dr. Ken Culver
Wayne Craig
625 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 625 Newer› Newest»Interesting Report that came out today:
Survey Finds Religious Landscape in Flux
By ERIC GORSKI,AP
Posted: 2008-02-25 22:13:27
Filed Under: Nation News
(Feb. 25) - The U.S. religious marketplace is extremely volatile, with nearly half of American adults leaving the faith tradition of their upbringing to either switch allegiances or abandon religious affiliation altogether, a new survey finds.
The study released Monday by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life is unusual for it sheer scope, relying on interviews with more than 35,000 adults to document a diverse and dynamic U.S. religious population.
While much of the study confirms earlier findings -- mainline Protestant churches are in decline, non-denominational churches are gaining and the ranks of the unaffiliated are growing -- it also provides a deeper look behind those trends, and of smaller religious groups.
"The American religious economy is like a marketplace - very dynamic, very competitive," said Luis Lugo, director of the Pew Forum. "Everyone is losing, everyone is gaining. There are net winners and losers, but no one can stand still. Those groups that are losing significant numbers have to recoup them to stay vibrant."
The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey estimates the United States is 78 percent Christian and about to lose its status as a majority Protestant nation, at 51 percent and slipping.
More than one-quarter of American adults have left the faith of their childhood for another religion or no religion at all, the survey found. Factoring in moves from one stream or denomination of Protestantism to another, the number rises to 44 percent.
One in four adults ages 18 to 29 claim no affiliation with a religious institution.
"In the past, certain religions had a real holding power, where people from one generation to the next would stay," said Penn State University sociologist Roger Finke, who consulted in the survey planning. "Right now, there is a dropping confidence in organized religion, especially in the traditional religious forms."
Lugo said the 44 percent figure is "a very conservative estimate," and more research is planned to determine the causes.
"It does seem in keeping with the high tolerance among Americans for change," Lugo said. "People move a lot, people change jobs a lot. It's a very fluid society."
The religious demographic benefiting the most from this religious churn is those who claim no religious affiliation. People moving into that category outnumber those moving out of it by a three-to-one margin.
The majority of the unaffiliated -- 12 percent of the overall population -- describe their religion as "nothing in particular," and about half of those say faith is at least somewhat important to them. Atheists or agnostics account for 4 percent of the total population.
The Roman Catholic Church has lost more members than any faith tradition because of affiliation swapping, the survey found. While nearly one in three Americans were raised Catholic, fewer than one in four say they're Catholic today. That means roughly 10 percent of all Americans are ex-Catholics.
The share of the population that identifies as Catholic, however, has remained fairly stable in recent decades thanks to an influx of immigrant Catholics, mostly from Latin America. Nearly half of all Catholics under 30 are Hispanic, the survey found.
On the Protestant side, changes in affiliation are swelling the ranks of nondenominational churches, while Baptist and Methodist traditions are showing net losses.
Many Americans have vague denominational ties at best. People who call themselves "just a Protestant," in fact, account for nearly 10 percent of all Protestants.
Although evangelical churches strive to win new Christian believers from the "unchurched," the survey found most converts to evangelical churches were raised Protestant.
Hindus claimed the highest retention of childhood members, at 84 percent. The group with the worst retention is one of the fastest growing -- Jehovah's Witnesses. Only 37 percent of those raised in the sect known for door-to-door proselytizing said they remain members.
Among other findings involving smaller religious groups, more than half of American Buddhists surveyed were white, and most Buddhists were converts.
More people in the survey pool identified themselves as Buddhist than Muslim, although both populations were small -- less than 1 percent of the total population. By contrast, Jews accounted for 1.7 percent of the overall population.
The self-identified Buddhists -- 0.7 percent of those surveyed -- illustrate a core challenge to estimating religious affiliation: What does affiliation mean?
It's unclear whether people who called themselves Buddhists did so because they practice yoga or meditation, for instance, or claim affiliation with a Buddhist institution.
The report does not project membership figures for religious groups, in part because the survey is not as authoritative as a census and didn't count children, Lugo said. The U.S. Census does not ask questions on religion.
Baptist, Presby, we need to move on. Get on past the elementary things and live the life. IMO
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. ff
Understanding biblical doctrine, including knowing the differences between what various denominations teach and how those teachings measure up to the Word, is a matter of study of the Word and familiarity with how it applies to life.
Such matters are far from elementary things; living a life pleasing to God requires knowing what His Word teaches, and the better we know it, the more in harmony with His will our lives have the potential to become.
The lack of interest in doctrine prevalent in today's churches is what indicates that we are stuck on elemental things.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
You guys crack me up. Mars Hill issued a 150 page document explaining the firing of those two elders. It's available online. Have you read it, or are you just lobbing rhetorical grenades at the church and its leadership, particularly Mark Driscoll?
"Mark Driscoll has a secret entrance;" FYI, so did Adrian Rogers. It was called a back door, but I had someone ask me once if there was a "secret tunnel" at Bellevue for Dr. Rogers to get in and out of the building. Hilarious! Driscoll has been rushed onstage by a man wielding a machete; you might be careful as well in the same situation, if not out of caution, then out of responsibility to your wife and children.
Of the three types of church government popular today, elder rule seems closest to the picture of the church in Acts. Find me an example in the New Testament of the membership (not the ELDERS) voting on anything?
concernedSBCer said...
By the way, the fired pastors were 'older' guys. Not in their 20's like the rest of the elders and Driscoll, etc.
Mark Driscoll is 38 years old, and have you looked at the bio picture of elder Tim Belz?
Job 38:2
Nehemiah 6:8
Interesting... Paige Patterson refusing to take "the oath" in Klouda deposition, saying the New Testament forbids the swearing of oaths. How convenient.
Tim: Please read carefully; I was quoting Lin.
:-)
I would be interested in knowing if he has ever had to testify in court before...and if he was sworn in. Like everybody else has to be. What makes this man exempt? The fact that he is a Christian? I would think not. IMO, he has a lot to answer to here.
Tim Greer said...
You guys crack me up. Mars Hill issued a 150 page document explaining the firing of those two elders. It's available online. Have you read it, or are you just lobbing rhetorical grenades at the church and its leadership, particularly Mark Driscoll?
The reason for the firing of the elders was not the real issue being discussed ... it was the changes to the bylaws to put the control of the church into the hands of a few self-appointed elders for life and the lack of accountability in the revised church government. Those churches who have historically practiced an elder-rule form of church government have generally not had a heirarchy within the eldership like that of the new Mars Hill constitution. (Did you read it, or or you just lobbing your own grenades?)
Of the three types of church government popular today, elder rule seems closest to the picture of the church in Acts. Find me an example in the New Testament of the membership (not the ELDERS) voting on anything?
You have a right to your opinion, even if it incorrect. I can't think of any example in Acts of church elders making any decisions on their own, but I can think of several where the whole congregation did:
-Acts 6, where the whole church (verse 5) chose the 7 servants
-Acts 9 where the "brethren" (verse 30, a word used for the whole church, not just elders) decided to send Saul/Paul to Tarsus
-Acts 11, where the any of the disciples (Christians, the church) in Antioch who had money determined (verse 29, decided together) to send an offering to the believers in Judea
-Acts 15, where the elders, apostles, and whole church (verse 22) chose men (by vote??) to go to Antioch with instructions to the Christians there
-Acts 15, verse 40, where Paul and Silas were commissioned by the brethren (the church, not just the elders) to go on a missionary journey
-Acts 19, where the disciples (verse 30) prohibited Paul (an apostle! that trumps an elder!) from speaking to an unruly crowd
Well, that's enough (but not all). Believe in "elder rule" if you want; it isn't the worst thing in the world. but you won't find it in Acts (or anywhere else in the New Testament).
A comment unrelated to anything:
I really dislike this new 200 comments per page limit.
concernedSBCer said...
Tim: Please read carefully; I was quoting Lin.
:-)
My mistake; I thought the "by the way" marked the end of the quote and the beginning of new material. Thanks for the clarification.
Paige Patterson won't "take the oath" because he has so much to hide.
I hope when the money settlement is made, the fired professor will have the integrity NOT to agree to silence.
That's the way the SBC ...BBC included...plays the game.
How many have been payed off at BBC with tithes and offerings from the congregation???
Will the pay off all come from the SBC?
Will it cost PP anything personally??
Will all the good ol boys take from the church reserves to help their good pal PP?????
Nothing is too worldly or shady for PP....or SG...and many other BC career ministers.
Junkster said...
The reason for the firing of the elders was not the real issue being discussed ... it was the changes to the bylaws to put the control of the church into the hands of a few self-appointed elders for life and the lack of accountability in the revised church government. Those churches who have historically practiced an elder-rule form of church government have generally not had a heirarchy within the eldership like that of the new Mars Hill constitution. (Did you read it, or or you just lobbing your own grenades?)
Yes, I have read the document, and again I ask, have YOU read it?
Find me an example in the New Testament of the membership (not the ELDERS) voting on anything?
-Acts 6, where the whole church (verse 5) chose the 7 servants
method of choosing unspecified
-Acts 9 where the "brethren" (verse 30, a word used for the whole church, not just elders) decided to send Saul/Paul to Tarsus
The disciples learned of a plot to kill Paul so they "brought him down to Caesarea and sent him to Tarsus."?? How is that related to the question at hand?
-Acts 11, where the any of the disciples (Christians, the church) in Antioch who had money determined (verse 29, decided together) to send an offering to the believers in Judea
No voting here either. Love offering.
-Acts 15, where the elders, apostles, and whole church (verse 22) chose men (by vote??) to go to Antioch with instructions to the Christians there
Method of choosing unspecified.
-Acts 15, verse 40, where Paul and Silas were commissioned by the brethren (the church, not just the elders) to go on a missionary journey
"Paul chose Silas and departed, having been commended by the brothers to the grace of the Lord."
In this, you read congregational government?
-Acts 19, where the disciples (verse 30) prohibited Paul (an apostle! that trumps an elder!) from speaking to an unruly crowd
Yes, I'm sure at the door of the theatre wherein was a riot, a business meeting was hastily convened and a vote taken on whether or not Paul should go in and be killed.
Well, that's enough (but not all). Believe in "elder rule" if you want;
okey-dokey
it isn't the worst thing in the world.
Neither is congregationalism. That was never in question.
but you won't find it in Acts (or anywhere else in the New Testament).
Jersualem council Acts 15
Well, no surprises in any of your examples, none of which contain voting by membership at large. Several of them contain "choosing," as did the choosing of Matthias to replace Judas, Acts 1:26, which was done by lot, not by vote.
10:36 PM, February 27, 2008
Did anyone hear Chuck Swindoll today? He had a very good message about Jesus throwing the moneychangers out of the temple. Swindoll noted that He, Jesus, was not timid about it, He did not ask permission, He did not hesitate, He KNEW they needed to go to purge HIS Temple in order to restore it to it's purpose.
This message brings shame to the membership of BBC who have just walked away rather than make a stand. Seems like only a handful of people followed Jesus' lead and tried to make a stand, yet that effort was so meek and mild that it was not even a blip on the radar. At what point are we supposed to do as Jesus did and make a righteous stand regardless of what people think? Whatever happened to Holy Boldness? Even other ministries, especially in the area, were worried about PEOPLE no longer supporting their ministry if they spoke out, and rather than allowing God to supply all their need, they walked away without a word, almost like they were cowering in the shadows, afraid to make waves, regardless of the sin that was permeating the church from the pulpit to the pew.
Early on, several people suggested that we stand up in the service and call for accountability and righteousness to be restored and they were bullied down by those who wanted to corrupt the church. (OH NO, How horrible of you to even suggest that a service could be interrupted!) We all let it happen, and the price has been paid for our cowardice.
I know that we who left have a lot to answer for because we were not more aggressive in casting out the sin in His church, but those who just walked away without even a whimper need to realize that they willingly turned over God's house to those who came to seize what was not their's to seize....how shameful is that?
What will you say when you meet Him face to face? What will be your excuse for allowing such blatant sin in the pulpit to continue unchecked?
As one faithful and wise preacher of the Gospel once said:
"To bear good fruit, you have to clear out the weeds of sin..."
BBC is now overrun with these weeds......how can they now claim to bear any good fruit at all?
The Moses Code Movie to debut April 5th..
Taking Blasphemy to a whole new level...
Watch as these end time descendants of the Tower of Babel and Lucifers rebellion spit out their new age lies to seduce those not standing on the authority of Gods WORD.
BABEL REVIVED
Even So... Come Lord Jesus Christ
Okay, I finally found the comments. Duh.
Tim, I am wondering exactly what you think an elder is according to scripture?
Driscoll is doing what they all do was they get big: Consolidating power in a few hands. It is not a new thing. And many people will follow blindly a few men. they do it all the time.
As to 'voting' in the congregation, that is a strawman. But I do find it interesting that when the Holy Spirit inspired the Espistles to the churches, they were not written to the 'elders' to carry out...but the whole church.
Just one example: In 1 Corinthians 5 he tells the WHOLE congregation to deal with the immoral guy. He does not give this instruction to a few elders to deal with.
Even in Matthew 18 when Jesus is talking about dealing with a sinning brother, the last step in the process is to take it to the WHOLE church. He never said: Take it to the leaders first. He said the WHOLE Church. he did not even specify that the witnesses had to be leaders.
There are numerous examples. But the bottom line is that you probably take a worldly view of authority in the church as many do these days. You probably believe it is an 'office' even though that was not in the original text. elder is a function...a spiritually mature believer.
If we take a worldly view of authority in the church, we can end up blindly following guys like Jim Jones. But, thankfully, Jesus tore the temple veil in two and we can go directly to Him. We all have (If true believers) have 'anointing' (1 John) and are all part of the Holy Priesthood.
It is a sad thing that Driscoll does not understand that.
Sorry Tim, I meant to write 30's. Driscoll's behavior and speech are more reminiscent of a 20 year old and I keep forgetting he is supposed to be more grown up and not cussing in the pulpit or harranging pastors wives for letting themselves go or calling Jesus a redneck.
He just acts more like 28 than 38. Although, I do not some 28 year olds who are much more mature.
Tim Greer,
Please don't let me confuse your opinion with the facts! :)
You referenced the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. I guess you didn't look up the examples I provided in context, because I included that one when I said:
-Acts 15, where the elders, apostles, and whole church (verse 22) chose men (by vote??) to go to Antioch with instructions to the Christians there
The context of Acts 15 is very clear that the entire congregation was involved in the discussion, and the entire congregation made the choice to send the representatives with a letter to the Christians in Antioch.
No, none of the examples say they "voted". But it is plain they made decisions collectively, as a body. I doubt they drew lots, either. More than likely most of the time they prayed and studied the Word together and discussed matters openly and thoroughly and utilized the giftings of the entire body to come to complete agreement under the leadership of the Holy Spirit. (Surely a much better approach than either "elder rule" or "majority rule".)
But we know there weren't always unified, as was the case in Acts 15, right after the Jerusalem council, when Paul and Barnabas argued over taking Mark on their next missonary journey. When they parted ways, it says that Paul and Silas were sent off by the church (not just the elders). I seriously doubt that everyone took Paul's side in his argument with Barnabas. So how does the church make decisions when not everyone agrees? It is likely the church had some means of doing so. There is nothing in any text to exclude the possibility that they voted.
I strongly believe in the NT concept of multiple elders as the spiritual leaders of a congregation, as those who shepherd and teach others based on their spiritual maturity. However, there are NO examples or instruction in the NT for church decision making by "elder rule". Every system of church governance is going to have problems because human beings have problems. But congregationalism is the method of church governance that best fits with NT examples and with the NT doctrine of priesthood of the believer and with the NT teaching that all memebers of the body are gifted spiritually to work together as a whole.
I don't think it is a sin to have some other form of church government (as the NT emphasis is more on function than form), but I do think it is a serious mistake not to follow the NT pattern.
Personally, I think the concept of elder rule is in vogue with Baptist pastors these days because it is a means of centralizing authority. If more pastors and elders were following the teaching and example of Christ that a leaders is to be a servants, they wouldn't be so concerned about exercising control.
Oh, yeah, to answer your question, Tim -- No, I have not read the 150 document giving the reasons for the firing of the elder at Mars Hill. But whether or not there were good reasons for the elders to be fired was not the primary point being discussed. It was the changes to the church by-laws to futher centralize authority and to set up a heirarchy within their elders. What I was asking you was if you had read the bylaws, not if you'd read the document about the elders being fired.
That said, it seems odd that if the elder were dismissed for clearly biblical reasons, it wouldn't take 150 pages to point out where they had violated Scripture. I haven't seen it, so guess it is possible that those guys had committed a long list of complicated sins that took so many pages to describe. But if that's the case, I would have thought they would have been fired after the first few dozen or so serious sins, rather than waiting until their sisn were so bad and so complex it took a book to catalog them all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njYE-czENtg&feature=related
Link to Driscoll's latest. WARNING. It is extremely offensive and if you have kids around, don't go there.
Please do not come back and tell me how important it is to preach on sex, what is sex, etc. I don't want to hear that drivel when too many sitting in the pews do not even know what really happened on the cross. People have figured this out for thousands of years. We don't need sermons to tell us that certain things are sex. We need to hear about the Cross and the Risen Savior.
Completely agree Lin. Parents need to wake up and get their kids out of the youth programs. They are innocently allowing their kids to sit under these guys and they are being permanently brainwashed...and yes, warped. And they are starting at grade school level, if not before. Awanas? No...it is bad news. Doug Fields wrote the handbook for the the leaders of awanas...and if you don't know Doug Fields, he is the youth minister at Saddleback. Recently I have discovered the youth groups are doing Best Sex Ever in their youth groups and guess whose program this is. Yep...Doug Fields. There are no words, nor expressions, or any way to communicate how horrible this situation is. I sit and say nothing anymore, because what else is there to say? What does it take??? Get your children out of the youth programs.
Mark Driscol? Bad news...through and through. Just like so many more of those just like him.
Mark Driscol shows up on another video at Christian Research Network today.
Junkster,
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Notice here there is no mention of other denominations or their interpretations or their doctrine. Just study of the Word and proper dividing of Him.
Maybe a better way to make the point of moving on is the following:
1 Cor 3:1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, 3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? 4 For when one says, I follow Paul, and another, I follow Apollos, are you not being merely human? 5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each.
Just substitute calvin, arminian, favorite theologian or denomination's doctrine for Paul or Apollos. Sort of the same principle of having more of a relationship with the chap or lass that introduced you to your mate rather than your mate. He/she may be a little jealous. (Ex 34:14)
14 (for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),
In many cases it seems we put more emphasis on the theologians views and words that we do the Holy Scripture. The WORD.
That is all, not trying to discourage study just focus it a little more.
Lin said...
Okay, I finally found the comments. Duh.
Tim, I am wondering exactly what you think an elder is according to scripture?
Pastor and elder are synonymous.
Driscoll is doing what they all do was they get big: Consolidating power in a few hands.
When Mars Hill had less than a hundred members and MD ran it out of his living room as the only person on staff and worked three years for no pay, was he consolidating power in a few hands?
As to 'voting' in the congregation, that is a strawman.
Explain to me what you think a strawman is? And how voting is a strawman in this context? And how your ad hominems against Driscoll are superior to a straw man argument?
Just one example: In 1 Corinthians 5 he tells the WHOLE congregation to deal with the immoral guy. He does not give this instruction to a few elders to deal with.
You're right. He TELLS them. The decision is already made.
There are numerous examples. But the bottom line is that you probably take a worldly view of authority in the church as many do these days. You probably believe it is an 'office' even though that was not in the original text. elder is a function...a spiritually mature believer.
No, the bottom line is that you make a lot of unfounded assumptions about the views of others whom you do not know, you sit in judgement of other believers' motives, and speculate wildly where angels fear to tread.
I could just as easily say you "probably" have bad breath and are a Sabellian, but it wouldn't be based on anything more evidential than your speculation on my view of authority in the church.
10:12 AM, February 28, 2008
Junkster said...
Tim Greer,
You referenced the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. I guess you didn't look up the examples I provided in context,
(uhhh, I did look it up in context, like I looked up all the others where I demonstrated the context had nothing to do with what you were trying to make it say...)
(peruse the next section carefully, thoughtful reader --)
because I included that one when I said:
-Acts 15, where the elders, apostles, and whole church (verse 22) chose men (by vote??) BAIT to go to Antioch with instructions to the Christians there
The context of Acts 15 is very clear that the entire congregation was involved in the discussion AND SWITCH, and the entire congregation made the choice to send the representatives with a letter to the Christians in Antioch.
No, none of the examples say they "voted".
(I have this crazy idea about not shouting where the Bible is silent.)
But it is plain they made decisions collectively, as a body. I doubt they drew lots, either.
(You're right; probably they only ever did that in chapter one.)
More than likely most of the time they prayed and studied the Word together and discussed matters openly and thoroughly and utilized the giftings of the entire body to come to complete agreement under the leadership of the Holy Spirit.
(Where you got the above rosy scenario, I have no idea, apart from your own imagination.)
But we know there weren't always unified, as was the case in Acts 15, right after the Jerusalem council, when Paul and Barnabas argued over taking Mark on their next missonary journey. When they parted ways, it says that Paul and Silas were sent off by the church (not just the elders).
(No, it doesn't say that.)
There is nothing in any text to exclude the possibility that they voted.
(I totally agree.)
I strongly believe in the NT concept of multiple elders as the spiritual leaders of a congregation, as those who shepherd and teach others based on their spiritual maturity.
(Me, too.)
Personally, I think the concept of elder rule is in vogue with Baptist pastors these days because it is a means of centralizing authority. If more pastors and elders were following the teaching and example of Christ that a leaders is to be a servants, they wouldn't be so concerned about exercising control.
(I think you make a very valid point there, and no question the abuse of church government is a serious problem, no matter what form it is. Here are some other reasons elder rule is gaining ground:
1. Some are persuaded it's more biblical.
2. Shifting demographics can see the orthodox members of a congregation move away from a church and the pews can be filled with liberal theologians, who in congregational govt., can then vote the church into liberalism and heresy. This has happened many times in Memphis.
3. Some would say many congregational churches are congregational in name only, and are really elder led or are autocracies. Some have said it about BBC.
4. Scary ignorance in the membership. When Adrian Rogers died and the search committee solicited names for a potential replacement from the membership, many members suggested J. Vernon McGee for the job. (Never mind that he was Presbyterian and dead.) And the votes of those guys count just as much as yours.
I like the idea of modified elder rule, where the membership votes on select issues such as acquiring or disposing of property, who the elders are, and who the primary teaching pastor will be. Beyond that, I like having elders on staggered terms as a check and balance. Just one guy's preference.
12:14 PM, February 28, 2008
Junkster said...
Oh, yeah, to answer your question, Tim -- No, I have not read the 150 document giving the reasons for the firing of the elder at Mars Hill. But whether or not there were good reasons for the elders to be fired was not the primary point being discussed.
(I agree. It seemed to me the primary point being discussed was, "Mark Driscoll is the Devil," and some of the evidence being offered for it was "He fired two people he shouldn't have." I was trying to determine if those involved had done the homework of listening to both sides before staking a claim on Truth.)
It was the changes to the church by-laws to futher centralize authority and to set up a heirarchy within their elders. What I was asking you was if you had read the bylaws, not if you'd read the document about the elders being fired.
(As a matter of fact, I have read the bylaws. You?)
(PS, the fact that we can read the MHC bylaws online is a step ahead of some local churches which shall remain nameless, no?)
12:26 PM, February 28, 2008
Hey guys,
Check out the staff bio page at BBC. Especially the bio of Steve Gaines. I took the opportunity to do a copy, here it is:
Gaines, Steve
PASTOR
Bro. Steve serves as Bellevue’s Pastor. Before coming to Bellevue, he was Pastor of First Baptist Church in Gardendale, Alabama; West Jackson Baptist Church in Jackson, Tennessee; and Lake Shore Baptist Church in Lake Dallas, Texas. Bro. Steve served as President of the Southern Baptist Convention in 2005, and he was a member of the Baptist Faith and Message Study Committee in 1999-2000. He has published two books, Morning Manna and When God Comes to Church. Bro. Steve holds a Doctor of Philosophy in Preaching and a Master of Divinity from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, and a Bachelor of Science from Union University. Bro. Steve and his wife, Donna, have four children: Grant, Lindsey, Allison, and Bethany
I did not know that he was president of the SBC in 2005????
Tim Greer,
Having read your most recent replies and some of the things you've written on your blog, I believe we probably have more in common on the important stuff than we would disagree about. I realize now that you were bothered by some of the kinds of criticism being directed at Mars Hill and Driscoll, but I was put off by your initial tone ("You guys crack me up"), and I reacted with my own typical sarcasm, but I should have responded with more grace, so I apologize.
As to the general concept of church governance, I still say that congregationalism is more consistent with the patterns and doctriens of the NT, but it isn't a hill I'd want to die on. The last three churches I have attended have all been elder rule churches, and having come from a congregational background, at first I very muched liked the concept and practice, but having now witnesed and experienced some of the potential abuses specific to elder rule, I long to see more humility and servants hearts within church leadership.
I do not think I did any sort of bait and switch, and I do believe the passages I referenced demonstrate a consistent practice of full church involvement and participation in various kinds of decision making. There are other passages I said nothing about, like the ones Lin referred to regarding church discipline, but I don't reaclly care to get into a "my verses are better than your verses" match. If you don't think that the passages we referenced indicate decision making ("rule") as a congregation, I doubt it would change anything if I expounded on them further.
I do want to note, however, that one of the reasons you provided for the rise in poluarity of elder rule is the same as that used to promote and defend the system of bishops and Popes within Roman Catholicism. I don't think the solution to "scary ignorance in the membership" is to divest them of their responsibilities within the body and hand over rule to a select group who is more educated.
And, yes, I read the by-laws.
:)
WE MUST BE VERY CLOSE
New age leaders come out with new Movie " Living Luminaries" , ...
I call it Satans A-list.
NEW AGE MOVIE TO FEATURE TOP OF THE BABEL HEAP
Been Redeemed,
Looks like the folks at BBC are still reading this blog, cuz the info at the BBC Staff Bios page has been updated. It now says:
Gaines, Steve
PASTOR
Bro. Steve serves as Bellevue’s Pastor. Before coming to Bellevue, he was Pastor of First Baptist Church in Gardendale, Alabama; West Jackson Baptist Church in Jackson, Tennessee; and Lake Shore Baptist Church in Lake Dallas, Texas. Bro. Steve served as President of the Pastors' Conference of the Southern Baptist Convention in 2005, and he was a member of the Baptist Faith and Message Study Committee in 1999-2000. He has published two books, Morning Manna and When God Comes to Church. Bro. Steve holds a Doctor of Philosophy in Preaching and a Master of Divinity from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, and a Bachelor of Science from Union University. Bro. Steve and his wife, Donna, have four children: Grant, Lindsey, Allison, and Bethany.
As now noted, SG was President of the SBC Pastor's Conference in 2005, not President of the SBC.
junk,
I believe someone must have called them. "Been redeemed's" comment, while timestamped 10:04 a.m., wasn't published until after 6:00 tonight because I haven't been at the computer all day. The correction was reportedly made before 2:30 this afternoon; therefore, they couldn't have learned of it from the blog.
NASS,
Thanks for the clarification.
Maybe the person who unwisely decided to throw $75,000 more dollars into the sign on GT is the same person who mistakenly wrote on the website that Steve was president of the SBC in 05.
Glad some people were paying attention and called the church.
With the salaries paid to staff at BBC, I would think the person designated for that job would be a little more competent.
Maybe it was a slip like Hillary made when she was senator but slipped and called herself president.
gmommy said...
Maybe it was a slip like Hillary made when she was senator but slipped and called herself president.
Or like when Bill was President and she said "We are the President"?
Junk, If the congregation is too ignorant to have input then perhaps they have been sitting under shallow teaching for too long. Perhaps they are not admonished to study the Word deeply. It IS their responsibility, but we have way too many pastors who want to be the final authority on everything. And with this attitude they encourage milk drinking and discourage meat eating. It is down right Roman Catholic.
If anyone has not read Steve Camp's response to Mark Driscoll, I highly recommend it.
http://stevenjcamp.blogspot.com/2008/02/driscoll-marks-hill-church-unbiblical.html
Notice from the Bellevue Messanger
Congregational Meeting:
The annual Congregrational BUSINESS meeting will take place on Sunday March 30.....No Worship or Bible fellowship.....Just business meeting.....Church is sure different these days....Also noted in the messanger they have a new ministry called Guest Central since Br. Steve has come...They welcome the visitors and give out gift bags...As I recall from days past we always had a Welcome center and gave out visitor bags and they even had GOO GOO Clustes in them :) I even recall the days when we had to have SOS (scoot over some)where people coming in late could find a seat...OH THE GOOD OLD DAYS! They have passed...
What??? NO CELEBRATION this year before the business meeting??
What WERE they celebrating last year?????
Will the Roberts Rules be announced again.....probably not...I'm sure everyone will fall into place nicely...
maybe Donna's sister won't have to be there and vote this time!
Will BBC save their money and have the meeting without a Parliamentarian????
I guess they feel pretty confident that the one left standing at the mic last year won't try to speak again......
afterall, his BIL is back on staff.
I'm sure alot of people feel justified that the treatment he recieved couldn't be all that bad if his own family would take BBC money.
"In many cases it seems we put more emphasis on the theologians views and words that we do the Holy Scripture. The WORD."
We do. Like Grundems Systematic Theology and his new book on men/women roles which teaches eternal subordination within the Trinity and even goes as far to say that God is subordinate to US when He helps (ezer) us!
They are getting desparate to PROVE natural earthly authorities. Kind of reminds me of the magistrates and Roman Catholics.
The Word should be a means to an end. The end as being Christlike. We should all pray and seek the Holy Spirit to teach us individually through the Word. We have got to start being serious Bereans because the bizarre teaching is coming from unexpected places these days.
Interesting that this week Paige Patterson refused to take the oath before giving his deposition in the Klouda case, yet five years ago he was advising young ministers to take a "Onesiphorian Oath," similar to the Hippocratic Oath taken by physicians.
Junk said: "I long to see more humility and servants hearts within church leadership."
Can we get a hearty "AMEN" on that?
concernedSBCer said...
Junk said: "I long to see more humility and servants hearts within church leadership."
Can we get a hearty "AMEN" on that?
AMEN!
Junkster--
Your last post addressed to me was very cool, and I appreciate it and receive it in the spirit in which was given.
I also agree with you about the Roman Catholic analogy, and I think an important task for us as believers has to be CONSTANT VIGILANCE. If you think about it, the Roman Catholic church took it so far as to forbid the Bible itself to its members. No way. Sola Scriptura.
The priesthood of all believers dictates we take some responsibility for our own spiritual well-being on this earth, and never fully or blindly entrust it to any other fallen human. The Bible alone is the final court of arbitration. We may differ slightly on various points of interpretation, but I thought your last post was a great example of how we can disagree without being disagreeable, and I, too, apologize for being strident.
TG
Paige Patterson on Domestic Violence
From the article:
The fact is, this type of miraculous transformation does not happen. There’s a reason. The problem with an abuser is not just a matter of getting “saved.” There are deep-rooted issues behind and underneath the behavior. While accepting Christ might motivate a man to find out why he is making the choices he is and might open his eyes to see the value of his wife, it’s going to take a lot more than a single spiritual experience to transform an abuser. Not maybe; definitely.
oc says:
Exactly. Let's hear from the woman, if in fact this is an actual event. And I highly doubt that it is. It is a self serving, self promoting fabrication. If not, let's hear from her, not from him.
We all know Paige Patterson needs to take a couple of Ex-Lax.
Not to mention, what Paige Patterson did was extremely negligent. That woman's husband could have very easily KILLED her (I'm no abuse expert, but I'm pretty sure the level of abuse escalates with each instance).
"In many cases it seems we put more emphasis on the theologians views and words that we do the Holy Scripture. The WORD."
Then Lin said:
We do. Like Grundems Systematic Theology and his new book on men/women roles which teaches eternal subordination within the Trinity and even goes as far to say that God is subordinate to US when He helps (ezer) us!
oc says:
Lin, I have a copy of Grudem's "Systematic Theology" right here with me. Not supporting the man at all. But I am looking at page 462. The whole argument to me seems that God has 'condescended' (my word) to meet us. Not that He "subordinates" himself in any way, just that He loves us in a way we can understand. "Comes down to us". I don't see insubordination" in it, but I do see inordinate Grace. And I do see some wonderful grace in Philippians 2:6-8.
Jussayin'.
oc.
OC, Did you read this from the book:
Recently some writers have denied that the creation of Eve as a helper fit for Adam signals any difference in role or authority, because the word helper (Heb. ‘ezer) is often used in the Old Testament of someone who is greater or more powerful than the one who is being helped.
In fact, the word helper is used in the Old Testament of God himself who helps his people. But the point is that whenever someone “helps” someone else, whether in the Hebrew Old Testament or in our modern use of the word help, in the specific task in view the person who is helping is occupying a subordinate or inferior position with regard to the person being helped."
(Page 461-462, Systematic Theology, ch. 22: Man as Male and Female).
"But the point is that whenever someone 'helps' someone else, whether in the Hebrew Old Testament or in our modern use of the word help, in the specific task in view the person who is helping is occupying a subordinate or inferior position with regard to the person being helped."
Say what? So when the teacher helps little Johnny with his math, the teacher is assuming a subordinate or inferior role to Johnny. Or when your boss at work helps you with a task, your boss is assuming a subordinate role to you. Or when you help your child in some way, you're assuming an inferior role to your child. Either you quoted that wrong, I read it wrong, or that's one of the most stupid statements I've ever read!
Grundem goes on to quote Cline who said:
""What I conclude, from viewing all of the occurrences in the Hebrew Bible, is that though superiors may help inferiors, strong may help weak, gods may help humans, in the act of helping they are being "inferior." That is to say, they are subjecting themselves to a secondary, subordinate position. Their help may be necessary or crucial, but they are assisting some task that is someone else's responsibility. They are not actually doing the task themselves, or even in cooperation, for there is different language for that. Being a helper is not a Hebrew way of being equal.""
My response to this is that I would buy tickets to see him teach this to Christian parents who are 'helping' their kids obey. :o)
In essence, Grundem is desparate to show that ezer means subordinate in Genesis. And he is willing to argue that God is subordinate when He helps us.
Problem is, ezer is most known in the OT in describing Eve and God! There are derivative names like Eliazer which is a form of ezer, ironically in the feminine form. Ezer in Genesis to describe Eve is a masculine noun.
This whole line of thinking is even effecting what is being taught about the Trinity and is dangerous stuff.
Here is a list of curious things that Grudem has written, although, he has been corrected by others on many of these points,
1. adelphoi means brothers only ( LSJ - brothers and sisters)
2. aner means man only (see Plato, used as citizen, both male and female)
3. kephale never meant source (see LSJ)
4. David is "head of his people" means the same thing as David is the "head of the Gentiles."
5. Gen. 5:2 had "Man" in it in all major English translations until the 1980's (RSV 1952 was the first major translation that used Man)
6. 1 Tim. 2:12 "assume authority" in the TNIV, was a novel and suspect translation (it was in the 1560 Calvin Bible.)
7. Adam naming Eve denotes his authority over her (Hagar names God)
8. Gen 3:16 teshuqa means for Eve to "rebel against the God given authority of the male", (others say it means desire)
9. Junia could be a man. (???)
10. God as ezer is inferior to man (???)
11. αυτος denotes a male but πιστευων denotes both men and woman. (They are both only male in grammatical ending only and are on an equal basis)
12. We are saved by "adoption of sons" (Luther thought we could be saved by adoption as children)
13. In general being egalitarian means you are less attractive to the opposite sex. (I don't know where he gets this idea. He hasn't spent enough time with Fee, Bauckham, Witherington, Burleson et al,)
14. The word submission in Greek must always be to a person with authority over you (there are clear counter examples)
These are for the most part just carelessness, but it is quite frequent IMO, and this is the short list.
No, I am no Hebrew expert. And I don't think I need to be a language expert to discern the Word of God. I am just seeing all this in the context of Philippians 2.
No, I don't think God is inferior to me just because He helps me. And I don't think that's what Grudem is saying. If he is saying that, then he is wrong. What I think he is saying is in the context of Philippians 2, but of course he doesn't cite that, so I'm hanging myself out here.
And after all these years, I'm still trying to learn.
And I'm willing to admit that I'm wrong when I am, should that be the case. And if so I will adjust accordingly. Is this just another one of those cases? Possibly. Wouldn't be the first time. :)
Blessings.
oc.
But whatever I believe a "theolgian" is saying, be right or wrong, it really doesn't mean squat. I see what Jesus says about those who spend their lives for others in Matthew 5 and following.
I'm going with that.
oc.
Bellevue just isn't what it used to be.
When did you ever hear of fighting in the hallways on Sunday morning serious enough to have people yelling for security?
When is the last time Bellevue had to pay big dollars buying tv time and newspapers to run prewritten articles on how much they love Memphis and are doing in Memphis?
I thought those things done in quiet were the best instead of having to publicly beat your chest letting everyone know how much you are doing.
When's the last time the church put out an emergency call for all active, inactive, former, and future deacons to show up for the Lord's Supper so it could be served?
Maybe the sections should all be roped off to get everyone in a couple of sections. 10 Deacons could serve everyone.
Has the Spirit left Bellevue?
Have this attitude in yourselves which was in Christ Jesus,
Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
But emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond servant,and being made in the likeness of men.
And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
That's all I'm saying.
When did you ever hear of fighting in the hallways on Sunday morning serious enough to have people yelling for security?
WHAT??????????????????????????????
So Sad!!!!!!!!!!
I was told a couple of teenage girls were involved and that security had to be called.
Wondering if security hand-cuffed the girls, or do they only do that JUST when they think that a 14 y/o girl might be a threat to SG?
SOTL,
I was wondering if there will be all the hoopla there was last year for the last business meeting???
WHY did we have to go thru so much learning those Roberts Rules and preparing proper motions and what a
ridiculous "celebration" of a year of shame on a Sunday morning "when visitors and lost people" were there.
That seemed such a horrible thing to Steve a few weeks ago at one of his rambling ranting Sunday night talks.....(not sermon,please!)......
BUT it certainly wasn't the wish of even the majority to have the business meeting under those circumstances.
I'm sure NO ONE will now question the mighty leadership!!!!
I ate lunch Sunday with 6 couples that left after that bogus meeting...(now at Faith)they couldn't close their eyes to the truth of the monkey business after that.....only one out of that group still putting on any front of still being involved at BBC.
These were major contributors, SS teachers, and mission trip people.
NOT that SG gives a flip....he'd walk over them like he did CW that day.
Just a nother day of "taking out the trash".
Someday Jesus will take out the trash.
If you want an idea of what to expect (and what not to expect) at the "congregational business meeting" on March 30, just recall SG's speech of Sunday, January 20 (purportedly based on Acts 15):
But these people that think you're supposed to vote on everything... I've been in some churches, they... they want to vote on the color of the carpet. They want to vote on any little thing in the world, and they say, "Oh, we're Baptists or whatever... and... and... we need to have these business meetings where people come together and they duke it out. That's the Baaaaaap... tist way! Well, it's not the Bible way! It's not God's way.
Why would you have a business meeting, and... and... bring out dirty laundry in front of young people and ruin their hearts and... and... and... and... and... hurt... damage their hearts, and they say, "If this is what Christianity is about, I don't want anything to do with it." Why would you have that kind of meeting... in front of new converts? And they're saying, "Is this the church?" Why would you have that around lost people? And they say, "I'll never darken the door of a church again." I know people that won't even go to church because they've been to a church that is a fighting church. Under God, let's don't have any of that! {applause} Just a thought.
...
Again, this is not a church-wide business meeting. This is leadership behind closed doors. I'm not saying there's never room for a church-wide business meeting. But I'm telling you this! You don't deal in front of the whole group... with difficult issues... for anybody... that... in anybody that wants to walk up to the microphone and say something. That is not in the Bible. I said, "It's not in the Bible!" Amen.
JUnk,
That is exactly the rant I was referring to. Thanks for posting that.
How deceitful and manipulative to say those things NOW when it was his idea last year to have the "business meeting" on a Sunday morning when he deliberately had the children perform so they would be present.
If they don't have the SBC parlimentarian present this year(that was willing to NOT follow the actual Roberts rules when told not to) ...will there be any explanation???
Will Steve say...
well, you know....we ran off those people who dared question MY authority ....so we don't need to play around with the rules this year.....everyone here KNOWS not to question God's man now, don't they!...Amen!???????
pausing to puke
random subject....
anyone watching American Idol.....???
WHY do so many of the men look so much like women???
Do we really have that many hormones in our meat??????
gmommy said:
"How deceitful and manipulative to say those things NOW when it was his idea last year to have the "business meeting" on a Sunday morning when he deliberately had the children perform so they would be present."
oc says:
Every Church I have ever been a member of has had business meetings on a Wednesday night. The "business meeting" on a Sunday morning was nothing but calculated. It is the big business way. A cut-throat "CYA" meeting heavily weighted in favor of the "management". And no one is spared in order to accomplish the "CYA" agenda. Even the children are sacrificed.
When I think of the thread topic, I get sick. "What Would Jesus Say?"
I'm sure Jesus wouldn't tell any of us to use children as human shields. But that's what Gaines did. He said:
"Why would you have a business meeting, and... and... bring out dirty laundry in front of young people and ruin their hearts and... and... and... and... and... hurt... damage their hearts,...".
Steve, why would you have the "business meeting" on Sunday morning anyway? You knew that those children would be there. You were counting on them to protect you, weren't you? (How ironic, in light of the protection you gave them during the 6 months you knew about PW.) You thought no one would bring up the issues with the children there. You used them as human shields.
And afterwards, you used them further in an effort to further your CYA agenda.
I say, why would you have the meeting on a Sunday morning with the children scheduled to perform and...and...and...and...and...hurt...take even the slightest chance of hurting their hearts?
The only damage you were concerned about was your ego.
Nothing but cowardice. Well, there is more. I can think of many more ways to express it, but I am sure that none of them would be appropriate for publishing on this blog.
Jussayin'.
oc.
CYA = "Christian Youth Alliance," right?
NASS,
Not exactly.
Oh....
Uh....and....uh.....sure...uh....ok.....and....uh...(stuttering because I'm lying) uh...yeah. Sure, that's what it means. Yeah sure...
Christian Youth Alliance!
Yeah, that's the ticket!
Now, let us all repeat...
It's a mistake of the...
(fill in the blank)...
and not of the...
(again, fill in the blank , but do not use the same answer twice.)
Filling in OC's blanks ...
It's a mistake of the ...
kidneys
not of the ...
colon.
JUNK,
LOL!!!!!!!!!
you always crack me up!
Cakes,
Check your email!!
Blog friends,
Please see Christa's last thread and the post she responding to the horrible situation with Debbie...the victim of clergy abuse who gave birth to the minister's child and continues to be put thru absolute hell by the SBC.
Whatever we think of Oprah....the idea of getting Oprah to expose the abuse and cover up in the SBC is wonderful!!!!!!
I'm writing in on the link Christa provided.
Maybe victims telling their experiences on the Oprah show will be enough witnesses for Paige Patterson.
It's time for these power brokers to retire their power over the powerless and the wounded.
I am all for exposing darkness gmommy; however, exposing darkness through another means of darkness is not biblical. There would surely be another avenue other than the queen of New Age to help in this situation. I have listened to an interview of Ingrid Schuelter done today by Brannon Howse. Listen if you will and surely you will change your mind about channeling Opray Winfrey to help.
Brannon Howse intervies Ingrid Schuelter
Long before Oprah was marketing her New Age junk...she has been bringing the issue of sexual abuse to light.
I am very grateful for that. She has championed that cause better than anyone I can think of.
I still think she would do wonders to expose these Baptist ministers and SBC leaders who contine TODAY to abuse and cover for their club members.
I love you Ima.....I disagree about this one thing.
"I am all for exposing darkness gmommy; however, exposing darkness through another means of darkness is not biblical"
Not trying to be contentious but God used pagans in the OT to discipline Israel all the time.
This is simply an INDICTMENT on us. That a pagan New Age worshiper must expose us because we do not discipline our own within the Body.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if some of the well knowns would speak out? Like Mohler?
We all have our opinions and I respect that. However, I won't compromise the gospel...and that is what Oprah is doing. She is a false teacher and is teaching another Jesus. She is dangerous.
Al Mohler? I don't see what he has to do with this conversation. I don't have an opinion about him...I was discussing Oprah Winfrey, not Al Mohler. But...yes, I think the SBC is sick including any of them who refuse to step up to the plate on this issue. They should step up to the plate and do something about the child abuse ongoing within their boundaries. I certainly do NOT condone abuse and hope none of you read this into what I have said. What I am saying is that Opray Winfrey is leading people into New Age and is sending their souls straight to hell...this book, The New World has sold three million copies and still selling. These people are signing up by the droves to learn this man's heresy and it is all promoted by Oprah Winfrey. And I feel that there should be another route obtainable to helping with this needed cause other than the Oprah Winfrey Show or any of her other avenues. Are any of you aware of her satelite radio program promoting the book, A Course in Miracles, by Marianne Williamson...this airs every weekday. This book was channeled through Jesus Christ back in the sixties to a heretic as is told by Williamson. She is teaching it through the entire year of '08 and her book sales are through the roof. I would support these people no more than I would support Rick Warren.
I will jump on the bandwagon with all of you in prayer for an avenue to not only expose the abuse in the clergy, but to punish those guilty of it...but not through these means. God is still in control.
I love all of you dearly...and if we disagree...we just disagree. Probably isn't the first time, and probably won't be the last.
There are better ways to bring attention to child abuse than through New Age supporters. This is heresy and my Bible tells me to have nothing to do with darkness.
Dear gang: First of all please lift my son, Kevin up in prayer. He is still suffering badly and they are taking their time. It is so frustrating with the military. It is such a shame how they treated soldiers that come back from Iraq less than whole.
Sweet Gmom: You know I love you and support you so much but I too disagree about Oprah. The best person that I know that has championed the cause against child sexual abuse is Barbara Blaine. Most people have never heard of her or know very little of her. She is an attorney that lives in Chicago. What did she do that makes me feel the way I do? She founded SNAP! She is the brain behind us.
She took on the Catholic Church single-handedly. She made her voice count yet no one knows of her. And because of this lady's brave courage so many countless victims have become survivors or in some cases advocates. She stood steadfast in the face of the storm. She did it without benefit of TV, the Web or a blog. Look, just go to http://www.bishop-accountability.org and look at the number of priests that are listed. And there is a section that list Protestants perps. All because of Barbara Blaine!!
I count it a real blessing to know Barbara. Her story is like so many of you that post on here and Christa's blog. And trust me the Catholic Church is just like the SBC. It is extremely male-driven.
I had a chance a few years ago to possibly be considered making an appearance. I declined. I had to weigh my faith against what I feel she represents. It was difficult but I don’t regret it for one minute.
Recently I was able to do a video project with the first lady of Tennessee. That project is due to be out the end of this month and we will be doing a series of engagements speaking out across the state. I am so grateful to have been included. Also on the project is a convicted Priest who was interviewed in prison.
On the other “blog” I was taken to task by someone that was offended that we might hold a picket across from Bellevue. Trust me if I was in town, I would have even if was just me. That was when Dr. Patterson was in town. This “wise” person was upset I would do this. This is the same person that got upset over his daughter comments: “that horrible man saying bad things about Bellevue Baptist.” For the record and let me make this abundantly clear, I never said anything bad about Bellevue. I love Bellevue. It is the administration that I was speaking about. And my opinions have not changed one bit.
One thing we must never forget and that is the power of prayer. I think sometimes we want to put our priorities in front of what He would have us do. I know my prayer life is lacking. Let’s join together in prayer. We can move mountains, even the SBC. We must spend more time in prayer.
I have rambled on too long but do have one more request. Please remember my mentor, Ann Brentwood. Another saint and brave soul that has fought against pedophilia for over 30 years; yet no one knows of her. She is a huge part of SNAP and my dearest friend. She had a very serious surgery last week. Please remember her too.
I love you all and yes, Gmom the road trip is still planned. I don’t care if it snows, rains or whatever. Some how this good ole boy network must stop its sinful ways; I call on them to repent. It is so easy and you don’t have to use phrases as “uncharted waters.”
IN HIS SERVICE
David Brown
SNAP director for Memphis and West Tennessee
Davidbrown@bigriver.net
901/569-4500
There are better ways to bring attention to child abuse than through New Age supporters. This is heresy and my Bible tells me to have nothing to do with darkness.
6:42 PM, March 05, 2008
Christa can probably speak to this better than I can but I do know this woman has tried to be heard within the Body and has been rebuffed. There are even people out there who are going around calling her a liar.
I am not going to judge her for going on Oprah (who is horrible) to tell the world. This is an indictment on US...the Body because we shunned her and have chosen very poor leaders. What does it tell the world about US that she is going on there to be heard?
I have never been raped by a pastor so I don't know what I would do to be heard and tell the world that the guy is still preaching.
What does Mohler have to do with it? One word from him and there would be some sort of accountability within the SBC. At the very least, what Gaines did would not be AFFIRMED by other leaders helping him! Mohler carries HUGE weight in the SBC. He is on radio, writes columns, goes on Larry King, etc. He talks about everything else but this. And we have a huge problem withing the SBC that everyone is ignoring.
Oprah is a new age nut. I totally agree. But I am trying to put myself in this woman's shoes. We say NOTHING about these pastors but we are quick to indict the victims. Like most victims, she probably finds more compassion in the secular new age world than she does from the Body. This grieves me to no end.
BTW: I was stunned to read that the church where this pastor raped her is suing the victim for 20,000 at 7.75% interest. Since the statute of limitations ran out, the case was dismissed so they are suing her!
The pastor who raped and impregnated her still preaches and owes her for 8 years child support.
maybe the Oprah show will help her with money since the Body of Christ wants to charge her for being raped and seeking justice. Even though the rapist gets to still preach and NOT even pay child support.
Sheesh!!!
OK, Lin. I am going to speak to it. The Oprah suggestion got started in an anonymous comment on my blog. I didn't start it, but I jumped on it when I saw it. I think it's a very good suggestion, and I feel 100 percent certain that both Barbara Blaine and David Clohessy would be thrilled for the opportunity to have SNAP talking about Baptist clergy sex abuse and cover-ups on Oprah. David Clohessy is SNAP's National Director. He has personally appeared on the Oprah show - twice as I recall. He's also been on Geraldo, which I can't even begin to imagine. And a whole bunch of other shows. David Clohessy will talk to just about any media person anywhere anytime if it will get the word out about clergy sex abuse and will reach out to more survivors. Similarly with Barbara Blaine, SNAP's founder and president. She is very well-known. MS. magazine named her one of the top women of the year for 2002. Whether or not you care even one iota about MS. magazine, one thing is for sure, a person doesn't get on that list without having attracted some media attention. People magazine named David Clohessy one of the top 25 most interesting people one year. Same thing - I couldn't care less about People magazine, but a person doesn't get named by it as one of the top 25 most interesting people of the year without having had some media attention. To imagine that SNAP grew without benefit of TV or the web is simply wrong. I'm sorry to have to refute you on this, DB, but that's just flat-out wrong. It is precisely because David Clohessy, Barbara Blaine and others understood the power of the media that SNAP has been able to expose as many clergy-perpetrators as it has and to bring about as much change as it has. In fact, before becoming full-time with SNAP, David Clohessy was a public relations person by profession and worked for the mayor of St. Louis.
Christa Brown
SNAP Baptist Outreach Director
www.StopBaptistPredators.org
Lin,
Thank you for pointing out what so many people want to ignore.
It is heart wrenching but we need to know what these ministers are getting away with. Keep up with Christa's blog....it's not a few!!
The newest one to be exposed (what a choice of words for this freak!) is ...still in the ministry!!
There WAS A time....when being a perverted freak was not a character "trait" one would expect to find and accept in a minister.....
None of this would be necessary if the so called pastors/leaders heeded this in Jude:
3Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our(F) common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. 4For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Not only do most churches refuse to tell other churches about sexual misconduct, they send them on their way with references to get rid of them!
I have read comments from lawyers on SBC blogs telling us how smart the SBC is for refusing to do anything about this...including preaching against it at pastors conferences and conventions! Know why? Liability. If they even admit publicly that it could be a problem then they admit they know and have done nothing about it and could be liable. They are scared to death of a Catholic style lawsuit. So they hide behind 'autonomous' even though they are doing everything they can to dictate everything else from PPL to Baptism.
Their high salaries and prestige are more important to them than victims, many of whom are young children.
Can you say, 'millstone'.
And yet, this victim will be reviled in SBC circles for going on Oprah. Once more, focusing our ire in the wrong place.
God used the Pagan Persians to punish Israel and bring them back to Him.
Tonight was a sweet time...in spite of the circumstances.
In some ways it felt sort of like a family reunion. I hugged people that I may not have hugged had we not all gone thru the pain of the past year or so.
Very bittersweet.
Thanks for all who showed their love and support for our dear friend and brother.
We need to continue our prayers and support in the months to come.
Love you all.
gmommy, My heart has been heavy and burdened since you shared the news with me. I pray for our friend's peace and comfort in the months to come.
"Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints."
Psalm 116:15
GMommy: As was stated in an email, we are a community. It was wonderful seeing everyone and please continue to pray for each other during this time.
I guess everybody's out building snowsheeps?
Many have built a snowsheep. But a kid in a Gaines mask has "discolored" it.
Nope, I was watching the Tigers and cleaning house!
Happy snow day, everyone!
I can't find another excuse or reason NOT to work on my stinking taxes now....bringing the bowl of tootsie rolls to the dreaded pile of papers that overwhelm me and make my head hurt.
SOMEDAY, I will be organized and prepared!
Do you know what I'm afraid of?
It is this, that sin will become so easily accepted that we get so accustomed to it that it shocks us no more. I think it has already has happened, and here it is. A "Dr. Gaines", who doesn't know what to do in the midst of a sexual crime.
Just for you, those who are left in the
"Pew". What would you do? Let it go on, or report it?
Uh huh. Doesn't need a doctorate, does it?
Now Christians. Now Pilgrims. What are you going to do about it?
Shall you be led by someone who denies his sin? I don't see that he's someone who has regretted and repented of his sin. Show me that, and I will shut up about it.
And maybe I will respect him. Maybe. Let's see it first.
oc said...
Do you know what I'm afraid of?
It is this, that sin will become so easily accepted that we get so accustomed to it that it shocks us no more. I think it has already has happened, and here it is. A "Dr. Gaines", who doesn't know what to do in the midst of a sexual crime.
Just for you, those who are left in the
"Pew". What would you do? Let it go on, or report it?
Uh huh. Doesn't need a doctorate, does it?
Now Christians. Now Pilgrims. What are you going to do about it?
Shall you be led by someone who denies his sin? I don't see that he's someone who has regretted and repented of his sin. Show me that, and I will shut up about it.
And maybe I will respect him. Maybe. Let's see it first.
6:00 PM, March 08, 2008
I think its a combination of accepting of sin as no big deal as well as fear of retaliation if someone calls someone else out on the sin.
I hate to use this as an example, but it is a perfect example. Just this week, radio DJ Bobby O'Jay told his listeners to think twice before providing any tips to Crime Stoppers to solve the Lester Street Massacre case. There is that fear in society today where if you do anything to confront sin, even if its reporting it to authorities, the person confronting sin could then be facing retaliation. We as a society MUST change this culture. Maybe if the fear of retaliation could be taken out of the equation, maybe more people will confront sin.
(And just a bit off topic here, but, in my opinion, Bobby O'Jay should be locked up for obstruction of justice for his bad advice)
lynn said: "... in my opinion, Bobby O'Jay should be locked up for obstruction of justice for his bad advice"
And in my opinion, so should every preacher, deacon, and denominational leader who, with or without the use of an attorney, threatens to sue clergy abuse victims who report it. Whether it's obstruction of justice or witness intimidation, it's certainly terribly immoral. But it's also terribly effective at keeping clergy abuse victims quiet and covering up the horrible deeds of Baptist clergy.
Now THAT is worthy of an AMEN!!!!!
Blog friends....stand in the gap for those who cannot defend themselves or stand on their own.
This is so much more important than having our "ears tickled " and being entertained.
These men abusing and covering for those that abuse need to be exposed and out of the ministry.
Our dollars should not be used to keep them in the lifestyles they have become accustomed to.
That's sinful for me.
Write letters and emails and be the voice for those who don't have one.
The SBC and the hearts of God's people has to change.
And in my opinion, so should every preacher, deacon, and denominational leader who, with or without the use of an attorney, threatens to sue clergy abuse victims who report it. Whether it's obstruction of justice or witness intimidation, it's certainly terribly immoral. But it's also terribly effective at keeping clergy abuse victims quiet and covering up the horrible deeds of Baptist clergy.
8:16 AM, March 09, 2008
We are seeing more and more teaching on earthly hierarchies today within the Baptist church. More so than I have ever seen in my lifetime. It has become a huge issue. Congregational polity or elder lead by a few men.
We are seeing the juxtapostion of this with the victims that we 'know' of who have been abused in Baptist churches to date. Those who are avidly promoting replacing Christ with earthly leaders who control and run the church are not actively speaking out for the victims nor are they rebuking anyone who hides this perversion publicly. They are not preaching on it nor writing about it.
As a matter of fact, those who are promoting earthly rulers in the church are the same ones who are trying very hard to silence this issue as a whole. And some of the same ones are affirming those who are guilty of harboring or promoting sexual abusers.
What does this tell us?
Read this blog article and comments by SBC pastors. It is scary what they think. Keep in mind that those posting on this blog are very well aware of the charges of abuse and sexual perversion in Baptist churches...yet look at what they focus on. I am sure Christa could speak to some of their references and statistics.
http://www.sbcimpact.net/2008/02/21/reporting-sexual-abuse/
I find this attitude scary considering what we have seen in just the last year!!
Lin: Saw your fine comments on the sbcimpact blog that you linked above. A noble effort. But of course, the blind will see only if they're willing to open their eyes. As usual they're way more concerned about the risk to ministers (i.e., the small chance of a good minister being falsely accused) than they are about the risk to kids, congregants, and families when no one does anything about the perps left in their pulpits. I have no clue where he got his high numbers for incidence of false accusations. It doesn't mesh with publicly available statistics on the darkness2light website and others. I could go on and on and on... as I often do... but that's not a blog where I hold any hope and so I don't ever comment there. Persuasion is possible only if you're dealing with persuadable minds... and I don't think the minds on that blog are. They are so intent on keeping their blinders in place that they would drive nails into their own skulls just to make doubly-sure the blinders stay secure. Sad stuff. Sick stuff.
"I have no clue where he got his high numbers for incidence of false accusations. It doesn't mesh with publicly available statistics on the darkness2light website and others."
I am ashamed to say that I once would have agreed with their stance. But after doing some volunteer work at a women's shelter and after seeing what I have seen in too many mega churches, they have it backwards.
The biggest problem we have is people NOT reporting it. The women who came to the shelter only did so when their lives were in danger or the abuse became so bad they fled. Even then, getting them to press charges is very hard and many times it was because of pressure from family, church, etc.
I have a friend who trains CPS workers all over who is now in Europe training. She told me that that getting child abusers is very hard because of lack of reporting/ making charges because of fear.
The things these 'pastors' write only feeds the fear of victims speaking out. That is the part that really angers me.
It is really past the point where we can say there are only a few instances where this is a problem.
You gotta wonder how many PW's are on staff or in a leadership role in some of these places because of the 'blinders'. Church seems to be a safe place for them. I guess because nobody will believe it and even if found out...there are no consequences. I am still in shock over the leader in the Mo Baptist Convention who wrote a letter to the judge on Baptist letterhead asking him to be lenient with the pastor who sexually molested teens. Where was his rebuke? Where are our leaders? Where is everyone?
Lin and others: If you think the comments on the sbcimpact blog are troubling, take a look at the ones on Wade Burleson's most recent post. You're exactly right, Lin ... the kinds of comments these pastors make only feeds the fears that most victims already have anyway about the prospect of speaking out. But hey... looks like they're willing to print up some more brochures.
I just read Wade's blog. Several thoughts came to mind.
1) There was one long post saying the ONLY purpose for the SBC was missions. If that is true, why do we have Lifeway? Why do we have a yearly convention concerning Baptist business that has nothing to do with Missions. (an example: the boycott of Disney)
2) In one of the earlier posts, it was suggested PP take Darrel Gilyard's degree. Is this even possible?
3) What hold does PP and his buddies still have over everyone else? If they would all stick together on a scriptural foundation, the boat could be turned back on course, I think.
What say ye?
3) What hold does PP and his buddies still have over everyone else? If they would all stick together on a scriptural foundation, the boat could be turned back on course, I think."
I don't follow this. Could you explain more?
Christa, the more I see of these comments the more alarmed I am. Did you notice how they questioned the victims motives first?
I have ONE step that I think should be taken in Indy right away. A hell fire damnation sermon during the convention against this and letting the churches know if this if this goes on there and is not dealt with properly (firing, speaking out, etc), we do not want them in the SBC. Even if they are a huge mega that gives tons of money. But, then, it just does not work that way. Too many high salaries depending on that CP money.
They could start with BBC. Kick them out. After all, they are not really churches.
The part that is left out of the post is that Patterson told one of Gilyard's victims that she had to have 3 witnesses before he would even listen to her.
Lin,
and now some well meaning but ignorant Baptist is misrepresenting what the scripture about the witnesses really means....just like Paige did.
This is unbelievable. It's like allowing a blind man to teach your child to drive a car!!!!!
Lin: I'm sorry I wasn't clear. My point was that there were quite a few who posted on Wade's blog that seemed logical (imagine that) and horrified and felt that something drastic should be done within the SBC against these predators and those that enable them. My point was if the pastors that are sick and tired of the PP good old boy network and the "looking the other way" with sexual preators....if those pastors would band together, there might still be some hope for the SBC.
But not much.
Lin said: "I have ONE step that I think should be taken in Indy right away. A hell fire damnation sermon during the convention against this and letting the churches know if this if this goes on there and is not dealt with properly (firing, speaking out, etc), we do not want them in the SBC."
AMEN to this. Those "bad apples" are rotting the whole bushel.
Does anyone ever consider the word "integrity"? We need that, with our individual pastors and with the SBC. Without it, anything else we say is just noise.
Going back to BBC for a minute.....just saw the Easter commercial.....in the past, haven't they had 3 Easter services?
Lin asked: "Did you notice how they questioned the victims motives first?" Yes, I did notice. It was sad to see. And their remarks about Tiffany Croft, who blogs on the Gilyard case, were not only sad but ludicrous and petty. Some of them tried to tar her by suggesting that she might be a CBF person (as though that was automatically something that would call into question her motives?). But the irony is that Tiffany Croft grew up in Jerry Vines' church and went to school with Vines' son, as I recall. She is totally an SBC person. But I guess those guys on Wade's blog just couldn't come up with anything else negative to say about Tiffany, and so they decided to suggest that she might be a CBFer. Wow. They sure jump through some seriously silly hoops to try to maintain their blind-eyed way of not seeing things.
For those of you who would like to listen to Paul Washer's message which he gave at the VCY Ralley in February, this is it in its entirety. The one uploaded at sermonaudio.com was not complete. It is being aired today on Crosstalk with Ingrid Schuelter and will be archived after that. It is very good.
Paul Washer VCY Rally Message, The Gospel,
In today's news:
. . . WARNING WARNING . . . .
READING ANY FURTHER WILL MAKE YOU WANT TO SCREAM (AND/OR VOMIT)
NEW YORK (AP) -- In a major shift, a group of Southern Baptist leaders said their denomination has been "too timid" on environmental issues and has a biblical duty to stop global warming.
The declaration, signed by the president of the Southern Baptist Convention among others and released Monday, shows a growing urgency about climate change even within groups that once dismissed claims of an overheating planet as a liberal ruse. The conservative denomination has 16.3 million members and is the largest Protestant group in the U.S.
The signers of "A Southern Baptist Declaration on the Environment and Climate Change" acknowledged that not all Christians accept the science behind global warming. They said they do not expect fellow believers to back any proposed solutions that would violate Scripture, such as advocating population control through abortion.
However, the leaders said that current evidence of global warming is "substantial," and that the threat is too grave to wait for perfect knowledge about whether, or how much, people contribute to the trend.
"We believe our current denominational resolutions and engagement with these issues have often been too timid," according to the statement. "Our cautious response to these issues in the face of mounting evidence may be seen by the world as uncaring, reckless and ill-informed. We can do better."
No one speaks on behalf of all Southern Baptists, who leave decision-making to local churches. Yet, the signatories represent some of the top figures in the convention.
Among them are the denomination's president, the Rev. Frank Page of South Carolina; two former presidents, the Rev. James Merritt of Georgia and the Rev. Jack Graham of Texas; and the Rev. Ronnie Floyd of Arkansas, who helped conservatives solidify control of the denomination in the 1970s and 1980s.
Also backing the effort are presidents of three prominent Baptist-affiliated schools: David Dockery of Union University in Tennessee; Timothy George of Samford University's Beeson Divinity School in Alabama; and Danny Akin of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in North Carolina. More than 35 people signed the statement.
Supporters plan to collect more signatures for the declaration through baptistcreationcare.org and encourage congregations to advocate for environmental protection.
Even before Monday's statement, religious activism on climate change had broadened beyond just liberal-leaning churches. The 1993 "Evangelical Declaration on the Care of Creation" became a guiding document for the Evangelical Environmental Network. The Rev. Rich Cizik, Washington director of the National Association of Evangelicals, became a prominent environmental advocate, trying to persuade conservative Christians that global warming is real. Polls of younger evangelicals found they considered environmental protection a priority.
But many of the most conservative Christians, including some Southern Baptist leaders, remained skeptical, and vigorously challenged evangelical environmentalists.
The Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation, backed by James Dobson of Focus on the Family and Charles Colson, founder of Prison Fellowship ministries, among others, said that while conservation is important, some environmental concerns "are without foundation or greatly exaggerated." Last year, Dobson and other Christian conservatives unsuccessfully pressured the National Association of Evangelicals to silence Cizik on the issue.
The last Southern Baptist statement on global warming came at the denomination's 2007 annual meeting, which approved a statement questioning the belief that humans are largely to blame for climate change and warning that increased regulation of greenhouse gases will hurt the poor.
Even so, Jonathan Merritt, a student at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, began rallying denominational leaders to take a different approach. Merritt, 25, son of former convention president James Merritt, said a theology class had inspired him.
His professor had compared destroying God's creation to "tearing a page out of the Bible."
"That struck me. It broke me," the younger Merritt said in an interview, "and that was the impetus that began a life change, a shift of perspective for me."
Global Warming, huh?
Probably the hot air generated by the protectors of sexually abusive "ministers".
Maybe they should start taking care of some real issues.
...it broke someone to think of destroying God's creation...the earth....and inspired him to make change and now the SBC leadership jumps on this bandwagon...????
BUT yet the FACT that God's creations....his children.... are being destroyed by wolves in minister's clothing....makes them defensive and suspicious to the point of further wounding the wounded...makes sense????
Is this Biblical thinking???
sounds more like politically correct thinking....along the lines of BBC loves Memphis????
Pardon me while I open my wounds here for just a moment...then I will go distract myself and regroup.
I just got finished reading the last comments on Wade's blog about the wolves in the pulpit ...
(he sure put a new thread up quickly)
Thanks Ez and Lin.
I wonder why the Christians who would rather protect the predators than the victims(as was the case with PW and BBC)....and want to hand out forgiveness like candy but expect SO MUCH from the wounded....
I wonder why they don't gather up Christa, SOTL, myself, Debbie V. and her baby fathered by the minister still in the pulpit, and all of us witches who set our sites on "getting" these godly men......and just burn us at the stake.
That seems to be how they see us and how little they value us.
It boggles the mind and breaks the heart.
gmommy, YOu know what makes it even scarier? Most of those guys are pastors in the SBC.
I suggest anyone looking for a church interview the pastor real close before joining.
gmommy said:
"I wonder why the Christians who would rather protect the predators than the victims(as was the case with PW and BBC)....and want to hand out forgiveness like candy but expect SO MUCH from the wounded...."
oc says:
Because as they protect the predators, they protect a part of themselves. Some things are too horrible to believe, and they want scream "NO! This is not so, my perfect little Christian world is threatened. The ones I have trusted and followed have been called to account, and I don't like it, because I have trusted in them for my faith". Much like your "bubble friends" which you speak of from time to time, gmommy. But when it's time to get real, it hurts.
I say, GROW UP. They need to admit what they have done, and repent.They have made a HUGE mistake. In fact it's sin. Their sin is the they've been following and trusting men.
Many of these "trustworthy" men have not grown spiritually deeper since
3rd grade Sunday School. Even though some have been to seminary, and may have masters, doctorates, etc. Impressive resumes do not impress the Lord. That's a problem we sometimes have. We often think as the world does. But what matters isn't in the education, or the charisma, or the resume, it's in the relationship. That will set one free or indict one.
I keep going back to Sermon on the Mount. Especially the Beatitudes.
I wish our "leaders" would take that more seriously. And in doing that , I think they would learn to rely on the REAL LEADER. We would do well to do so also. And we would have much more less disappointment, hurt, heart brokeness and flat out abomination of sin in our churches and in our own lives. And if we did, maybe if all of us did decide to take the Beatitides seriously in our own lives, we could a be a bride He could be proud of.
I'm just saying, watch in whom you put your trust. Don't put your trust in another man, and don't put it in yourself either. Disappointment, at the least, is sure to follow.
oc.
Lily: You are right.....the article made me sick. It takes them over a year to decide they need to think more about a database for accused/convicted sexual predators; yet a resolution on Global Warming (not even a proven theory) gets the hot line treatment.
Unbelievable.
Oh yes. Let's follow science. Since God doesn't know what's going on. Global warming. Man has measured it for how long? God has controlled it for how long? OK SBC, let's go ahead and give Darwin the ok too. Since 'science', or worse, indeed 'theory', has now become your god, tell us, who's the next monkey to be president of the SBC?
I received the following via email today...
The Epicycles of Global Warming
March 10, 2008
By James Lewis
When True Believers begin to harbor doubts, they don't immediately give up the faith. It's too scary; too much pride and money has been invested; too many jobs and reputations are on the line; and they need to find a new reason to live. So they always try to add on new wrinkles and qualifications to their crumbling story.
Today that's happening with the global warming cult.
"Human-caused global warming" has now officially been re-named "climate change" to explain the inconvenient truth that the winter of 2007-8 was the coldest in a century, in spite of all those tons of "greenhouse gas" being spewed into the air from all the new factories in China and India. Worldwide temps dropped 0.6 of a degree C in one year. That may not sound like a lot, but it's more than all the ballyhooed warming in the preceding century.
If you want to see cult therapy at work, read John Tierney in The New York Times. Tierney is a skeptic who now conducts recovery therapy for the faithful on his Tierney Lab page. It looks like someone at the NYT has finally caught on to the hoax but won't admit it. So they hired Tierney to break it to the True Believers as gently as possible. Watch how the readers' blogs are resisting his gentle skepticism; it scares them. They are just Obama suckers who would have fallen for Bill Clinton, when he still had his magic mojo.
In the 1960s social psychologists studied a doomsday cult which made the big mistake of predicting the day of Armageddon. When that day came and went without crisping the world, the cult leaders didn't admit they were wrong. Instead, they discovered reasons why doomsday had been postponed. It was a triumph of faith over facts. That's how stock market bubbles and busts work. It's how the jihadi Armageddon cult of Tehran will crumble, if we're all very lucky.
How can this super-cold winter happen? It's got all the faithful a little worried. Climate modeling teams all over the world are sweating 24/7 to deal with it. They are producing epicycles for their models, to hang on the warming story.
"Epicycles" are cycles on top of cycles. When traditional astronomy began to collapse in the years before Copernicus, True Believers reacted by adding lots of little cycles on top of the great cycles of the planetary orbits, to protect their faith. Trouble is, they had to add so many cycles on top of cycles that eventually, the whole system became a laughingstock. Ultimately you could explain anything you wanted -- after the fact.
The Polish astronomer Nicholas Koepernick -- called Copernicus -- pointed out that a sun-centered planetary model could get rid of all those epicycles with elegant simplicity. You only had to assume that the planets are going around the sun, not the earth. Suddenly all those cycle-on-cycle orbits simplified into near-circular ellipses. But he only saw the page proofs of his book De Revolutionibus on his death bed. He didn't want to share the fate of Giordano Bruno, who was burned at the stake, or Galileo Galilei, who was put under house arrest by Pope Urban VIII and forbidden to publish in the last years of his life. Because mobs of True Believers can get pretty nasty before they give up.
Today we see a spate of new computer models showing up in science journals, each one attempting to rescue some piece of the ecological goose that laid the golden egg. These are often not called "models." With utter dishonesty, they are labeled "new studies of the climate." But they are not empirical studies at all. They are little math models with new epicycles, but still based on the same gross oversimplifications. To reassure the True Believers, they always end with the same punch line: Yes, Virginia, there really is a global warming faerie, and all the doom-sayers are right.
How good are the assumptions in these models? Well consider the fate of Ferenc M. Miskolczi (pronounced Ferens MISkolshee), a first-rate Hungarian mathematician, who has published a proof that "greenhouse warming" may be mathematically impossible. His proof involves long equations, but the bottom line is that the warming models assume that the atmosphere is infinitely thick. Why? Because it simplifies the math. If on the other hand, you assume the atmosphere is about 100 km thick (about 65 miles) -- which has the big advantage of being true -- the greenhouse effect disappears! No more global warming.
Miskolczi once worked for NASA, but resigned in disgust when they would not allow him to publish his work. (It appeared in the peer-reviewed Hungarian journal Weather, and looks legit). So it's the global warming faithful of NASA Goddard Space Center, notably True Believer Godfather James Hansen -- who are always complaining to the media about Bush Administration censorship -- but who have ended up censoring their own scientific skeptic. Cosmic justice for NASA, you might say.
Censoring skeptics is an admission of weakness. That's why Pope had to shut up Galileo -- he couldn't win on the facts. The science establishment is now going after the Galileos of our time for the same reason, because orthodox scientists are pretty frail human beings and don't really like to be wrong. Reasoned skepticism is not something our papacy of politicized science wants to hear. Off with their heads!
That's the real global warming tragedy -- a speculative bubble in science, which happens all the time, has now been protected by the politicians, and allowed into an ugly and expanding volcanic pressure point. It is threatening to erupt and engulf climate modeling around the world. Scientists are pretty ruthless with open failure.
Politicized science is a far bigger disaster than NASA's Challenger tragedy. Americans understood the Challenger tragedy as a technical mistake at the leading edge of space exploration. What we cannot understand or forgive is corruption of scientific inquiry to push a money agenda.
When this farce is finally exposed, heads must roll. Not for being wrong about the global warming hoax, because anybody can be wrong -- but for politicizing normal scientific debate. Politicized science kills science. This is one festering boil that has to be lanced.
James Lewis blogs at dangeroustimes.wordpress.com/
Ya know...the guy who founded the Weather Channel wants to sue Ozone Al for his fear mongering.
All of this talk about global warming is nothing but crap designed by liberal fascists that want to strip our country of our sovereignty and make us pay taxes to the UN. Here comes the New World Order.
I heard today on the radio that Greenland is green. :o)
In reading the Bellevue Web site there is a new letter posted form the Administrative Pastor's Page...Interesting!!!!!
What "lwood's" talking about.
Lin,
I've heard that Greenland is icy, and Iceland is green.
:)
oc.
From lwoods link:
"Expenditures are under budget in large part due to savings in payroll and related cost. The payroll cost savings come at a time that we are currently fully staffed in all areas of the church."
oc says:
OK. Fully staffed. In all areas. So tell me, how are you "under budget and saving"? Who was it who took the salary cut? I'm betting it wasn't Gaines. Or is it that the church was over-staffed in the first place, which then brings up the question of stewardship, which again reflects on the leadership of the church.
This stuff is too "business" oriented. All the slight of hand, behind your back magic may be be considered respected and welcomed in the business world, but the business we are in is a bit different, don't you think?
I am so tired of us looking like the world. We are condemning ourselves, and Jesus, and our witness then becomes nothing. We are supposed to be different!!!!
I read the stuff from the BBC website and all i've got to say is this:
WHAT A CROCK!
oc says:
OK. Fully staffed. In all areas. So tell me, how are you "under budget and saving"? Who was it who took the salary cut? I'm betting it wasn't Gaines. Or is it that the church was over-staffed in the first place, which then brings up the question of stewardship, which again reflects on the leadership of the church.
IMO, it doesn't take much staff to fun the show when you have run everybody off....
Last budget pre-Gaines was over 12 million, I think.....but if you ask the "staff" they are doing better than ever before.
Sounds like they are barely keeping the lights on.......
NASS,
Question....who restricted the comments to 200 per.....it is a pain....????
:)!!!!
mom4 wrote:
"IMO, it doesn't take much staff to fun the show when you have run everybody off.... "
Slip of the finger?
"Question....who restricted the comments to 200 per.....it is a pain....????"
Not I. I agree.
mom4 wrote:
"IMO, it doesn't take much staff to fund the show when you have run everybody off.... "
Slip of the finger?
OOPS! It is corrected now...
Mom4 said:
"Sounds like they are barely keeping the lights on......."
oc says:
Lights may be on, but less are home.
That is just plain sad.
Jussayin'.
oc.
If I ever want to worship in the temple of big business, I would do it in a large way and spend my time, effort and money with Gates and his philosophy of Microsoft. Or I could start off some what smaller and use my God given resources with Gaines and his philosophy of Moralsoft. Give him credit though, he's trying hard to follow the model. He may just get there one day.
PS. The above is meant only to be aimed at the big business philosophy of the church CEO and his cronies, not the members.
The world should not influence the church. It should be the other way around.
Yeah, What Would Jesus Say...
As His bride becomes a business...
It is now about money and power...
And His bride is bruised, beaten and abused by his groomsmen...
His "best man" is Judas...
Doesn't sound like a wedding, does it?
Sounds more like prostitution.
(Read the book of Hosea.)
The question may not be "What Would Jesus Say?", but rather, "What Does He Does He Say To You Right Now?"
We had better be listening closely.
We best start listening closely to the Groom.
Greed isn't specific to the SBC.
Heres a story about a church treasurer in the Lutheran denomination that ripped $1,000,000.00 from congregations to buy classic cars.
Church Treasurer Rips off Congregations
And speaking of cars.....in 2008....Pontiac is reviving the El Camino. Might as well bring back mullet haircuts too. :p
Anyone recognize this person
HERE
Former, if not current, Bellevue Baptist Member, who is also the son of a promenant Bellevue Baptist member, shoots 2, kills one in a local bar, 2 weeks after his divorce.
HERE
HERE
Family Photo Here
Is he not also among the many uniformed and plain clothes, ARMED Sheriff Deputies that are on the Bellevue campus every Sunday and Wednesday.
"And speaking of cars.....in 2008....Pontiac is reviving the El Camino."
But brother Lynn, the El Camino was a Chevy,not a Pontiac. It just wouldn't be the same...
gopher,
I didn't make the connection to E.C. Jones, nor did I know his family are members of BBC, but I admit when I saw that story the first thought that crossed my mind was, "I wonder if that guy works security at Bellevue." That's scary.
That is so sad. Temper gets the best of someone and 3 kids are now fatherless.
Speaking of Bellevue security... some might recognize the name of one of the MPD officers featured in these stories. The officer in question isn't mentioned by name in the older article.
March 6, 2008
August 25, 2007
In case the name still hasn't rung a bell, Andrew Kjellin was the security guard who cussed at and handcuffed the 15-year-old girl at Bellevue last year. Last I heard he was still working at BBC, apparently even after having been fired from the MPD.
"Meanwhile, Cunningham said Kjellin was only following orders from Drewry."
oc says:
"only following orders". Yep, classic defense. At least it was popular immediately following WWII.
The devil made me do it.
But, since he is but a robot, and has no conscience of the soul, who ordered him to cuss and cuff a 15 yr old girl?
Meanwhile, so was David Burkowitz following the instructions of the neighbors dog, Sam.
Comforting,isn't it?
I was at a gathering last night with some Christian friends and a very interesting question was brought up.....
If two people are praying and seeking God's Will, how come sometimes they get different answers about the same situation?
Example: Is this the right pastor for our church? VERY RARELY is the vote unanimous (and SG's wasn't either, no matter what they would try to tell you)If two people are both praying, shouldn't they come up with the same answer?
From the SBC outpost link:
Current SWBTS Student Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 11:34 am, Blackhaw, do I need to come up to the 3rd floor in Scarborough to make you open up your eyes to the truth? I appreciate this website because they have the guts to reveal the truth. I am tired of losing good profs because Paige wants them out. I just recently got word from a very reliable source that a popular prof in the Theology school has been told to start looking for another job. I am so tired of this!
oc says:
Some people get power, and think they are god. They will ruin your life, just because they can, they don't have to have a good reason.
This is a wonderful witness, not only to the unsaved, but to us as well. It doesn't seem to matter if there good professors in the seminary are not. Look what he did to Klouda. I'm thinking that God is not a consideration. I think it's a matter of making everything and everyone conform to the image of Patterson.
Yeah, what would Jesus say?
I don't think anyone has answered that question fully yet. What do you say, Christian?
Excellent question, Concernedsbcer.
It brings up the matter of God's decretive will versus His permissive will. I have always been confused in this area, and would love to hear other's opinions on this.
Since God is sovereign, then is even what we see as 'bad' His will?
Maybe Paige Patterson might hire Dr. Laura. They seem to have the same mentality.
For those who don't know, Dr. Laura Slessinger went on the Today show and blamed Elliot Spitzer's wife for his fooling around with a hooker.
And I always liked Dr. Laura. Oh well, strike another one off the list.
Heres a link to what I'm talking about in regards to Dr. Laura.
Dr. Laura Blames Silda Spitzer for her husband's antics
I used to like Dr Laura myself but something is WRONG when Dr Laura says that the that sexual perversion of a man is the fault of the wife!!!!!
How sad...and wrong!
Blog friends...
time to bowl for a little while while the rows(???) are clear! :)
Blog friends...
time to bowl for a little while while the rows(???) are clear! :)
I was at a gathering last night with some Christian friends and a very interesting question was brought up.....
If two people are praying and seeking God's Will, how come sometimes they get different answers about the same situation?
Example: Is this the right pastor for our church? VERY RARELY is the vote unanimous (and SG's wasn't either, no matter what they would try to tell you)If two people are both praying, shouldn't they come up with the same answer?
If two people are praying and seeking God's Will, how come sometimes they get different answers about the same situation?
Example: Is this the right pastor for our church? VERY RARELY is the vote unanimous (and SG's wasn't either, no matter what they would try to tell you)If two people are both praying, shouldn't they come up with the same answer?
8:45 PM, March 16, 2008
hmmm. I am reminded that men like Hudson Taylor were on their knees for years and years and had one convert.
You are right, but I wasn't necessarily talking about converts. What I'm asking about is decisions that impact churches. Why, if two people are praying seeking God's Will, do they receive different answers?
Do you think we try and help God out sometimes???
I get nervous when people say "God told me this and that"....
do we really need that when we have GOD'S WORD???????
If something/anything doesn't line up with God's Word....it's not from God.
Wish someone would have taught me that when I was young.
GMommy, I agree. I think many things people "ask God's Will about" are actually already in scripture. (I often wonder if God gets tired of repeating himself?) Anyway....say you have prayed and prayed about a pastor to replace a beloved pastor that is retiring. The search committee brings someone in and they REALLY like him. But you get a funny feeling and feel as if something is not "right," a check in your spirit as it were. You have prayed, the search committee has prayed....why don't you agree on the same man?
You are right, but I wasn't necessarily talking about converts. What I'm asking about is decisions that impact churches. Why, if two people are praying seeking God's Will, do they receive different answers?
8:52 PM, March 16, 2008
I am not convinced anyone got any 'answers'. God's will is for us to bear the Image of Christ. So much of what we seek answers to are already answered in scripture but we ignore it. Like finding pastors.
this is just my 2 cents.
Lin, I'm sorry, I'm not quite understanding. I think you are saying the requirements are in scripture and of course should be followed?
I agree. But there still seem to be times when people are brought into leadership that don't seem to be the right choice.
I agree. But there still seem to be times when people are brought into leadership that don't seem to be the right choice.
9:09 PM, March 16, 2008
Well, I can't really speak to this because I don't think anything we do now about pastors even remotely resembles the NT.
I would rather see a few godly spiritually mature people preach than all this cult of personality stuff. (Like they did in the NT)
Well, I can't really speak to this because I don't think anything we do now about pastors even remotely resembles the NT.
I was thinking that what we do more resembles hiring a general manager of a organization. there are just too many out there that see ministry as a profession or career.
Lin: I agree. It does seem like churches are run like businesses.
However, still....if many people are praying for God's man, how come they seem to receive different answers?
Also...........are seminaries a waste of time? I agree things were different in the NT. However, how can that style be implemented now?
(not arguing at all...truly interested in a good discussion time and sharing ideas)
I read alot on the link provided on Wade's blog....giving a lot of history on the SBC.
There was a definite turn around in when churches began to be run like a business and not like things were intended to.
CSBCer...I think some people get checks in their spirits and some people get caught up in flesh/excitement or wanting something so much themselves they want to believe it's God.
BTW....I was reading the archives the other day when I couldn't sleep...and mom4 had a post in Oct 06 about JP purchasing his big house in Millington 8 days after something ...can't remember what now....but whatever it was...it would have meant that there was never a true search...the decision was in the bag.
Mom4...are you out there to clarify?????
GMommy: I heard lots of rumors about it being a "done deal" and that really bothers me. If that's true, who's will is it????
Whose will is it??
The elders we didn't know we had....???
Men decided
I just caught up on the FBC Jax site and it looks as though things are heating up there. It's very sad. They are referencing the "Saving Bellevue" website in their posts.
Their pastor Mac Brunson has "borrowed" $500,000 from the church to start a private Christian school in their building in downtown Jacksonville. The projected tuition is twice what other private schools in the area are charging. His plan is to reach the area with Christian education. I see many holes in that plan....
His plan is to reach the area with Christian education. I see many holes in that plan....
Yeah, one hole is that going to a Christian school doesn't make you a Christian. Just like living in a garage doesn't make you a Chevy.
concernedSBCer said...
I just caught up on the FBC Jax site and it looks as though things are heating up there. It's very sad. They are referencing the "Saving Bellevue" website in their posts.
Their pastor Mac Brunson has "borrowed" $500,000 from the church to start a private Christian school in their building in downtown Jacksonville. The projected tuition is twice what other private schools in the area are charging. His plan is to reach the area with Christian education. I see many holes in that plan....
10:17 PM, March 16, 2008
Call me crazy, but how does that reach those who can't afford the tuition?
oc wrote:
"Just like living in a garage doesn't make you a Chevy."
Or a Pontiac. :-)
New BBC Open Forum said...
oc wrote:
"Just like living in a garage doesn't make you a Chevy."
Or a Pontiac. :-)
11:40 PM, March 16, 2008
Or an El Camino :p
"Also...........are seminaries a waste of time? I agree things were different in the NT. However, how can that style be implemented now?"
The Holy Spirit does it.
I know I sound like a nut compared to what we are used to but I think seminary is great ONLY for learning Greek and Hebrew and that is about it.
If someone is gifted with preaching, they can immerse themselves in scripture and be taught by the Holy Spirit for each presentation of the Gospel. One huge problem is that preachers are preaching everything else but the Gospel. Now they are preaching on money, debt, marriage, etc. Most of these things will be dealt with as people mature as Christians. I think too many preachers are tickling ears and assume many in the pews are saved who may not really be saved.
Paul Washer speaks to this idea of preparing for preaching the Gospel. Ironically, he had no mentors but went off alone and studied scripture and went onto a dangerous mission field.
He talks of dedicated but uneducated Peruvian pastors who have sandals made from old tires who do not know Greek but who Love the Lord with all their heart and understand the Gospel message because of the Holy Spirit.
Could it be that we have complicated it to the point it is no longer effective?
Can we separate correct doctrine from bearing the Image of Christ as believers?
Is scripture the end or is it the beginning? A means to teach us and over time reveal truth and convict us so we can live out our lives as Christlike and grow in Holiness?
I have more questions than answers!
Lin said: "Could it be that we have complicated it to the point it is no longer effective?"
I have often wondered this. I think much of the problem with our general church members is that they want to be spoon-fed. They want it laid out in a nice neat package. They don't have the time (and that's stepping on my toes some as well) to study as they should. That opens the door wide for a pastor to come in and say whatever because the knowledge is secondhand.
Lin,
I'd love to know more about what Paul Washer has to say about this. I know of someone who has been called to preach, but not called to seminary...
I know that Billy Graham was trained "on the job" too.
Lizzie, He does not have a sermon on this topic but you get bits and pieces of it throughout all his sermons. Go to sermon audio and download all his sermons. they are worth listening to anyway. He stays on the essentials of the Gospel which is unusual these days :o)
"I think much of the problem with our general church members is that they want to be spoon-fed. They want it laid out in a nice neat package. They don't have the time (and that's stepping on my toes some as well) to study as they should. That opens the door wide for a pastor to come in and say whatever because the knowledge is secondhand."
This has to be because we have ignored teaching the Holy Priesthood. We are into building large churches. We are building churches based on cult of personality and hierarchies instead of a Holy Priesthood where all believers are to be growing and ministering. What is the purpose of meeting together? To worship together, learn and then go out and witness and to minister to one another.
The average pew sitter has no idea he/she is in a Holy Priesthood and is a 'minister'. I am reluctant to say what I think that really means.
And yes, many do believe whatever a pastor says that sounds good or right to their ears. They have no discernment because they are not in the Word. We cannot spot a counterfeit unless we know the real thing. And most of it is very subtle.
I would throw out the idea that pastors don't want them to think about being priests because that *might* take away THEIR (perceived) power.
Just a thought.
I've just read about the Early Church, and the conversion of Constantine jumped out at me as being the beginning of the church problems we have today.
I found this web page very interesting and timely:
Not long before Constantine's time, the Christian church experienced under the emperor Diocletian, the period of its worst persecution.
The severest part of Diocletian's persecution was that it crippled the church's leadership. This left the church wide open to the tragedy that befell it when Constantine came along and befriended the beleaguered church leaders while professing to be a Christian. The church, withered by persecution, was caught with her guard down, and her leadership weak. One of the great mysteries is why no prophet arose in that hour to denounce what took place under Constantine.
~sigh~
Maybe what the Bride of Christ needs today is fewer "friends" and more persecution? Maybe that's what the true church is getting, only it's hard to find the sheep among all the wolves.
just sayin'
Lizzie: You bring up a very interesting point. I have long been suspicious of the church growth policy of churches and have claimed the "narrow is the gate and few there are that find it" passage as the basis for that thought. I think we should tell the gospel to everyone we can, everyone God leads us to tell. But I think we must understand that scripture says there will be more saved during the tribulation than in the previous history of the world. That being said, are unbelievers leaders in our churches?
Not that we have any way to know.....but some persecution would weed some out, that's for sure.
The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church.
I have been reading quite a bit of Anabaptist history and it is amazing how those groups grew when they were under so much persecution. But people knew the state church was not the 'real' thing because people were forced to be a member.
The ana baptists were not monolithic but, in general, their focus was on living the scriptures...not just knowing correct doctrine. Ironically, as the persecution died down, they started becoming legalistic and heirarchical (taking pride in thier separatism) and we know them today as Mennonites, Amish, etc, and they are nothing like they were 500 years ago.
I believe we can learn a lesson from this.
Lizzie, I think the problems started before Constantine but I do believe his marrying the church and state was the pivotal moment. I also believe there has always been a true remnant of believers who refused to cooperate with the state or apostate church.
God's warnings to the lukewarm Laodicean Church in America.
Faithful Baptist preacher lays it on the line.
FAITHFUL BAPTIST PREACHER WARNS THE LAODICEAN AMERICAN CHURCH
Ok..one more time
Faithful Baptist Preacher warns the Laodicean Church in America
FAITHFUL PREACHER LAYS IT ON THE LINE
In my experience, those who have "great learning", sometimes tend to depend on their superior knowlege and start to depend less and less upon the Holy Spirit. And even worse, they lead others to do the same.
Knowing Greek and Hebrew is great. But it doesn't mean you have been in touch the heart of God.
And I'll tell you this much also.
Biblical languages are not necessary for one to be a Godly pastor or minister. In fact, I've seen those without any of it, NO seminary, NO biblical languages... be the most godly and most Jesus- like ministers there are. They don't only talk it, they walk it.
Many of the brightest seminary students have no idea how to live out what is preached in the Sermon on The Mount. Let that person be your pastor. Guess I'll take one of the "uneducated" ones. Every time.
Go figure all that.
Lin said:
"Could it be that we have complicated it to the point it is no longer effective?"
If you are talking about the Gospel, then yes. If I have to believe as a Calvinist or Arminian, a complementarian or egalitarian, believe in a certain eschatological formula,...yada yada yada... then yeah. How could the Gospel be effective? If all that matters eternally, then the Gospel doesn't. Because I ask, is any of that really the Gospel?
Why can't we go back, despite our great learning, to what He said?
"For God so loved the world..."????
oc,
I know little girls aren't supposed to preach, but you outta' hear mine sing "Jesus loves me. This I know for the Bible tells me so..." to the neighbor boys!
The gospel can be really simple to understand. But being a Christian doesn't stop there. Where are the local churches and pastors who will fill the great commission? You know, the part about making disciples?
Still lookin'
Lizzie: What an interesting question. Where are they?
Are there any pastors out there who could help us with this? Are churches being used to "pull in people" or to disciple believers?
Lizzie said:
"I know little girls aren't supposed to preach, but you outta' hear mine sing "Jesus loves me. This I know for the Bible tells me so..." to the neighbor boys!"
Whoever said that little girls aren't supposed to preach? The greatest sermons I ever heard came from my little girl while she was growing up into a fine and loving lady.
Jussayin'.
oc.
Lizzie said:
"Where are the local churches and pastors who will fill the great commission? You know, the part about making disciples?"
Well, the local churches are made up of individuals. Me,and you. As far as I see from Matt. 28:19-20, it's your responsibility to make disciples. Mine too. As we go.
May I change the subject for just a moment?
Would ya'll please weigh in on this question:
Do you find it wrong to keep it a secret from your children ( ages 22, 18, 16) that you had both been married before?
Do you think it credible that someone in this day and age with computers would think that they could keep it from their children forever, particularly when one of the parents had been married twice before?
Keep in mind the conspiracy that must take place between all grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc...
Ok, now weigh in, if you don't mind:
P.S. this isn't about me..everyone knows i've been married for 25 years to the same man, the only man :)
SOTL,
Yes, I know for a fact it's not about you! Nor is it hypothetical.
I think it's ridiculous to live a lie like that. When, exactly, were they going to get around to revealing the truth? Because in this age of information, the kids would have found out sooner or later. Marriage and divorce records are a matter of public record. Some states even put them online. The U.S. census, a great source of genealogical information, is made public 72 years after it's taken (which is every 10 years). If either of them was married to someone else the year the census was taken, it will be public knowledge.
Would you rather your kids find out by accident? If the kids were 1, 3, and 7 it would be different, but those kids are long past the age where the parents should have sat down with them and had a heart-to-heart talk. There are some things in your past it's not necessary to discuss with your kids. This isn't one of them.
SOTL,
What would be the purpose of living that lie?
Anyway, wrong? Yeah, wrong alright. Flat out right deception. Deception equals sin.
Listen, I'm getting real sick of some of the stuff I'm hearing, not necessarily on this blog, but everywhere. A pastor is no more holy, or closer to God than you are. That guy standing in the pulpit on Sunday has been called to proclaim God's Word to God's people. Not because he is more special to God than you, but only because God told him to do it. The "pastor" is no more important to God than you or I are. We are to proclaim His Word too, in fact in a possibly more hostile environment than the pastor has been called to. My home. My job. My world. My dangerous neighborhood. So in fact, the pastor should be in awe of us, not the other way around. So guess what? Get that sheep off of that glorified pedestal. And if he is a real man of God, he will encourage you to do just that, no, he will INSIST that you do just that... Because if he is a real pastor, he will know and tell you that he is also but one of the sheep.
I'm not demeaning pastors, I pastored myself for a few hard years. It was very tough, it was not easy. In fact, it was mostly painful.
But, jussayin', we gotta get our stuff straight. We need to get rid of some ideas that have been drilled into us that are just flat wrong and aren't scriptural. I think too many make too much of the "pastorate", and thus down-grade the priesthood of the believer.
Just a side note. I don't give a rat's tail how many initials follow someone's name. It proves nothing in God's economy.
And as Baptists, we hold dearly and holler loudly about the priesthood of all believers. Yet we don't excercise it practically. We still think pastors are one step closer to God than we are. And we treat them like the Catholics do with Mary. An intercessor between us and God.
Oh yes, think about it a minute. Yes we do. Many people think the pastor is their 'connection' to God.
The one we pay to do our ministry.
That's very convenient for the lazy Christian. And when our relationship with God comes apart, the pastor becomes the fault that our relationship with God is lacking.
We sure don't want to believe it's on us.
Listen, you "priesthood". If you are you are really going to be the "priesthood", then you are going to have to do away with any romantic idea that the person called 'pastor' is anything more than just another sheep. And that means that you, as a priest yourself, are responsible for your Christian growth, and you are responsible for any outreach you think should happen. If you sit around and bemoan the sorriness of the "pastorate" for the lack of those things, you just condemn yourself.
If you are saved, then you have the Holy Spirit. If you have Him, or better if He has you, then you have all you need. You aren't weak and helpless. Stop acting like you are.
sotl,
Are you are referring to somebody we should know?
Is it possible that these parents didn't have any ulterior motives? I have family members who have been married before, but it wasn't until a wedding of their child occurred that my children realized. "You mean Uncle ___ isn't ____'s Daddy?"
I wasn't hiding anything, it just didn't occur to me to explain the family's history.
I get the feeling that there is more to your question; circumstances that would make the lack of informing the children wrong...
hee hee ~ WORD VERIFICATION is mr ouf
oc said
"If you are saved, then you have the Holy Spirit. If you have Him, or better if He has you, then you have all you need. You aren't weak and helpless. Stop acting like you are."
So you're saying I have to take responsibility for myself instead of looking around for someone to blame?
Preach it, oc!!
SOTL.
Just catching up... far away from Memphis :)
I think anything about a child's parent that they could POSSIBLY find out from someone else and feel betrayed by their parents...needs to come from the parent.
How in the world can we expect honesty from our kids if we aren't honest with them....age appropriately, of course.
AND kids need to know that their parent is human and can grow and change!
I had a situation when my daughter was young. I thought I had a TERRIBLE secret that she wouldn't be able to handle.
I really felt like I had to be honest with her and there was a slight chance she would find out on her own someday. As I stuttered around trying to tell her this AWFUL secret from my past......
she gave me SUCH a gift.
She knew as much as she could understand about the abuse and neglect from my childhood....she said,
"mom....if you had to _______ to survive....it doesn't matter to me. You are my mom and I love you and NOTHING will change that!
I had never been offered such unconditional love in all my life.( from a live human)
I started laughing and hugging her. I said...
baby, if you will give me grace on ______ then what I have to tell you is nothing!!!!
I did things kind of backwards....the norm is to see the example of God's love and grace from our parents....I saw the example from this child.
Our kids deserve for us to show them honesty and we need to show them that God forgives us...and we can keep moving forward even when there are things in our life that may have not been God's best for us.
That's my 2cents worth for the day!
"Are you are referring to somebody we should know?"
lizzie,
Probably not, and there's nothing more to the story than that. It's not about telling children about an aunt or uncle, but about their own parents' history. I don't know about you, but as a former child, that's something I wouldn't want to find out from someone else or to find out on my own years later.
OC's 4:10 AM, March 19, 2008 post:
Not sure where all that is coming from, I agree with some, most I don't agree with at all. If I did, I would have to rip out a few pages of scripture regarding qualifications of a Pastor, handling the Word of God, instructing & guarding the sheep ect.
Anyway, hang in there bro.
Johnthebaptist said:
"OC's 4:10 AM, March 19, 2008 post:
Not sure where all that is coming from, I agree with some, most I don't agree with at all. If I did, I would have to rip out a few pages of scripture regarding qualifications of a Pastor, handling the Word of God, instructing & guarding the sheep ect.
Anyway, hang in there bro."
Well,JTB, with all due respect...
Number one. I wasn't looking for anyone to agree with me. I don't care if my opinion is agreeable or not, if I think it's right, I'm still going to express it. Can you respect that?
Number two. I wasn't writing Scripture.
Number three. Look what's happening in the pulpit today. Maybe you should take those pages you may have to rip out and give those to some pastors. I think they are missing those pages.
Get my drift?
oc,
Re: your post at 4:10 AM, March 19:
(1) Even though you're not looking for validation, I agree. :)
(2) You think and write very clearly in the middle of the night.
JTB,
Re: your response to oc's post:
I think it would be more helpful for you to lovingly and patiently demonstrate from the Word what you believed to be incorrect about oc's statements than to just say you don't agree. Unless you don't consider it to be a very important matter.
Blessings,
J99M
Junk: Good point.
OC: How do you think so clearly at 4:10 am????
Everyone else: I do agree that there is a fine line for Pastors to walk. They are called to be shepherds and are held to a higher accountability. By the same token, all believers are taught through the Holy Spirit and do deserve respect from the Pastor. There has to be a middle ground. What it is?
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