"Gopher" posted a comment to the previous thread that was too important to bury in the comment section. This should stand alone -- and plainly illustrates just how far Bellevue Baptist Church has fallen. I watched these videos with a mixture of disbelief and sadness. Some questions that come to mind include:
1. Are Bellevue interns paid? If so, for what?
2. Am I the only one who is very uncomfortable with the sanctuary and our Lord being disrespected in the manner depicted in the first "kidnapping" video?
3. Were these videos produced while the interns and staff members were supposed to be working?
4. Can you imagine Dr. Rogers and Jim Whitmire participating in something like this?
5. Was this supposed to be funny?
Regarding the sign on Steve Gaines' desk... a picture's worth a thousand words.
And here are the videos...
Kidnapped Part 1
Kidnapped Part 2
There was a 2006 version, too. Kidnapping, this time at gunpoint, seems to be a theme of sorts.
Thanks to "gopher" for this topic idea.
406 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 406 Newer› Newest»New BBC Open Forum said...
If Hillary is the Dems' nominee, this will be my choice.
10:26 PM, February 02, 2008
That will be me as well, provided its not McCain. If McCain is the nominee, I will not vote at all.
Ann Coulter says McCain is to the left of Hillary. Now, there's a scary thought! Of course, Ann scares me sometimes, too!
New BBC Open Forum said...
Ann Coulter says McCain is to the left of Hillary. Now, there's a scary thought! Of course, Ann scares me sometimes, too!
10:42 PM, February 02, 2008
She's right on this one. Remember, it was the McCain-KENNEDY bill that everyone went nuts about this past summer. McCain I think wants Meximericanada.
According to Phylls Schafley, Mike Huckabee DESTROYED the republican party in Arkansas.
Mike Huckabee, while a Christian, is no conservative..He LOVES Rick Warren and wants the UN to institue some sort of world health care plan..
He SCARES ME!!!
just sayin
bkwormgirl,
We do hang a lot of importance on that Galatians passage telling us that we are free from the law.
However, we are told that Christ didn’t come to abolish the law. (Mat 5:17). The law and the prophets are also the basis for Mat 7:12. In Mat 22:37-40 we are told that the law and the prophets are the basis for the two commandments that Jesus left us with. So I disagree with your statement that we are free from the law. The way I read it, we are free from the curse of the law because of what Christ accomplished on the cross. We are free from the condemnation of the law.
In Romans 3:20-31 we are told that the law and the prophets testify to God’s righteousness. If we are truly in Christ and Christ is in us, we are to be righteous as He is righteous. After all we are wearing His robe. Right? Then in verse 31 we are told that we don’t overthrow the law but uphold it. ” 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.”
Now without the law, assuming we are totally free from it, does that mean that we are lawless. God forbid. We want the law, we need the law. Otherwise we are lawless.
Peter warns us about folks twisting scripture that Paul gives us because it is hard to understand.
”11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
See also Jude. Pay careful attention to lawless. I suggest reading and searching EVERY reference to each verse. We have people today that think they are saved and live a lawless life based on a misinterpretation of Paul’s writings. Don’t fall for it.
If you want to email me, I can send you a copy of Jude (ESV) or (KJV) with all the references. It is too long to post here. It looks like this...
4 For [2 Pet. 2:1] certain people [[Gal. 2:4]] have crept in unnoticed [1 Pet. 2:8] who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert [See Acts 11:23] the grace of our God into sensuality and [Titus 1:16; 2 Pet. 2:1; 1 John 2:22] deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5 Now I want [2 Pet. 1:12; 3:17] to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that [[1 Cor. 10:4, 5, 9]] Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, These are grumblers, malcontents, [2 Pet. 2:10] following their own sinful desires; [2 Pet. 2:18] they are loud-mouthed boasters, [Lev. 19:15; Deut. 10:17] showing favoritism to gain advantage. 17 But you must [2 Pet. 3:2] remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Denying Christ, we all agree is dangerous business. how many folks do you know do this?
Titus 1:15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
Do you know folks that practice lawlessness yet claim to be saved?
1 John 3:1 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. 4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
I don't think anyone here promotes lawlessness. At least, I haven't seen that. We all worry about "easy believing", but I suggest that because of that, sometimes we can easily become too legalistic, forgetting that love is the fulfilment of the law.
Romans 13:10.
sickofthelies said...
According to Phylls Schafley, Mike Huckabee DESTROYED the republican party in Arkansas.
Mike Huckabee, while a Christian, is no conservative..He LOVES Rick Warren and wants the UN to institue some sort of world health care plan..
He SCARES ME!!!
=============================
He scares me too! He is a Christian but liberal in his politics - raised taxes 3 times in ARkansas and is "soft" on illegal aliens. He, like McCain, is a moderate Republican. He is also a Warren groupie. Romney may be conservative on cultural issues
(he's recanted his support of a woman's "right to choose"), but he is a devout Mormon. Mormonism is a deceptive, powerful religion - not a personal relationship with Christ. Having a Mormon in the White House could give a big stamp of approval on the Mormon faith and enpower that false religion even more. McCain is a Democrat in Republican clothng. Sorry folks. We don't seem to have much of a choice this go 'round. But when we get down to the wire in this election,we must vote for the Republican platform. It will be the lesser of two evils.
The last time I voted for a 'born again Christian' was Jimmy Carter. I learned a quick lesson.
I vote for the individual. Integrity (God knows that is difficult to define anymore), character (whatever that is), independent thinking (always nebulous with a politician - think GWB), and his/her respect for the Christian faith.
Honestly at this point, if it's McCain as the Republican, I will probaby vote Democrat (God help me! LOL). In that vein, at this point, I would prefer Obama. And please, I have read almost everything available on all of them.
Politics is a dirty game. I have no respect for Huckabee. If he had a calling, he should go back to the pulpit.
And abortion would never be the litmus test for me. I am pro-life. But sometimes I think many of those babies may be better of not having to live a full life. No justification of anything. This world is screwed up and I don't think we can change much of it.
Random thots from a frustrated conservative.
eprov wrote:
"The last time I voted for a 'born again Christian' was Jimmy Carter."
Wow, you mean you'd admit that?! I didn't, but that's the example that comes to mind for me, too. That's all many people knew about Carter. He was a Southern Baptist and taught SS, so he had to be the best choice, right? You saw how that turned out. "Hah, ah'm Jimmuh Cahtah." {big toothy grin} Give me the Episcopalian duffer any day!
I'd love to see a race between Hillary (in spite of having to see and listen to her for the next nine months) and Condoleezza Rice. Now, that would be interesting. Condi is intelligent, tough, multi-talented, a Christian, pro-life, experienced in foreign policy -- just about everything we seem to be looking for in a candidate. Blacks who have historically voted for candidates based solely on skin color would have to make a tough decision (note there was no comma after "blacks") -- are they more loyal to race or party, and everyone would have no choice except to vote for a woman which means a number of people would probably stay home. "I ain't gonna vote for no female!" And that's always good for the Republicans. It could have been a very interesting election year.
Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, and GWB claimed to be born-again Christians, and I imagine GB might say he is, too. Not judging anyone here.
Just sayin'... Carter didn't have a monopoly there. He just happened to be the only one (except for Clinton to some extent) who made that a campaign issue.
I think after Tuesday, we can put a fork in Huckleberry, he'll be done.
I've never voted for a democrat in my life, and I will sit home before doing so.
The thought of voting democrat is so repulsive to me, I don't think I could do it.
32yrs said....
"We don't seem to have much of a choice this go 'round. But when we get down to the wire in this election,we must vote for the Republican platform. It will be the lesser of two evils.
6:32 AM, February 03, 2008"
After getting betrayed by the current president, I will never give someone a free pass for my vote ever again. Bush should be in jail with Johnny Sutton over the wrongful jailings of border agents Ramos and Compion who shot a DRUG SMUGGLER in the butt.
Don't vote for the party. Vote for the person who matches your values best.
I think everyone of us should google Paul Washer and listen to one sermon all the way thru.
Those who know me, know I can talk to a wall.
Everytime I listen to one of these sermons...I am speechless.
He's intense but I think it would be worth it to listen to him once.
We may discuss law and legalism and many things here a little differently.
We may even understand Ez :)
bkwormgirl: Trinity Baptist in Jacksonville is not a church "with a history." It's a church with a HUGE ongoing unresolved clergy sex-abuse and cover-up scandal. It's a church with documentation indicating that its current senior pastor knew about Bob Gray's abuse of kids. It's a church in which, at last count, 27 people had come forward saying they were abused as kids, and they are wounded people who are rightfully asking for some accountability. And a second church leader there has recently been brought up on child molestation charges as well. It's not "history." And I don't think it's "history" at Bellevue either so long as the church chooses to keep a senior pastor who admittedly turned a blind eye to a staff minister's sexual abuse of a kid. These are not just churches who "done wrong" and they aren't mere "skeletons" in the closet. There are living, breathing people who were horribly wounded in these churches - and who continue to be wounded by everyone else's desire to go back to their comfortable status quo, prematurely put it in the past, and "move on" without imposing accountability or consequences.
It sends the wrong message for a political leader to speak at churches who continue to fail so miserably in the truth and transparency department. (And this would be so whether it was Huckabee or anyone else - but I do think it seems all the worse when the politician is ALSO a Baptist preacher.) When Trinity and Bellevue come clean - totally clean - then perhaps they will be deserving of such status.
Even though Huckabee spoke anyway at Trinity, I heard from numerous Trinity survivors and other clergy abuse survivors who said how much it meant to them that someone saw the horrible wrong in what he was doing and spoke up about it. I grieve for that. It could have meant so much more to those people if someone of Huckabee's stature had sent a message of care for the wounded by refusing to speak at a church still so mired in an ongoing abuse and cover-up scandal.
And a few more words for bkwormgirl.... No... EVERY church does not have scandals the size of Trinity's. You're wrong about that. I follow these scandals in Baptist churches all over the country. I know. In fact, it would have been hard for Huckabee to find a Baptist church with a bigger, ongoing scandal than Trinity's. But it's a church with lots of local Jacksonville politicos as members and deacons, etc., and therin lies the answer to why he spoke there.
But please...do not minimize the horrible wounds of so many people by brushing it off as though it were nothing more than what "every church" has.
The choir on the LWF broadcast today performed A Mighty Fortress is Our God. This is always what immediately pops into my mind when I hear that song.
Oh, Daaaaavey!
Ahhh, memories.
Oc,
I am not accusing anyone of promoting lawlessness. Just trying to right some of the teaching we have had. In an effort to really drive home the message of salvation by faith and faith alone, some seem to go to the extreme of saying that we are not under the law and by hammering that message, we in fact abolish the law. That is not what Paul intended.
Psalms 19 says it best.
"19 :1
The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
2
Day to day pours out speech,
and night to night reveals knowledge.
3
There is no speech, nor are there words,
whose voice is not heard.
4
Their measuring line goes out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.
In them he has set a tent for the sun,
5
which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber,
and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy.
6
Its rising is from the end of the heavens,
and its circuit to the end of them,
and there is nothing hidden from its heat.
7
The law of the Lord is perfect,
reviving the soul;
the testimony of the Lord is sure,
making wise the simple;
8
the precepts of the Lord are right,
rejoicing the heart;
the commandment of the Lord is pure,
enlightening the eyes;
9
the fear of the Lord is clean,
enduring forever;
the rules of the Lord are true,
and righteous altogether.
10
More to be desired are they than gold,
even much fine gold;
sweeter also than honey
and drippings of the honeycomb.
11
Moreover, by them is your servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.
12
Who can discern his errors?
Declare me innocent from hidden faults.
13
Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins;
let them not have dominion over me!
Then I shall be blameless,
and innocent of great transgression.
14
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be acceptable in your sight,
O Lord, my rock and my redeemer."
The Law exists to show us where we transgress against God's will. We are not justified by it but we need to live by it none the less.
EZ,
Honest question. Which part of the Law? Do you mean the Jewish law in the O.T.? The dietary laws? Just the Ten Commandments? Just trying to grasp what you mean by "the Law."
Christa said
>and who continue to be wounded by everyone else's desire to go back to their comfortable status quo,<
so true...and in the process become desensitized to how much wrong and evil is happening right under our noises.
CB also said
...prematurely put it in the past, and "move on"
the mantra I've heard more times than I can count.
Ez,
I think I get it now.
Nass: I could REALLY get behind Condi. I wish, oh I wish, she would reconsider and jump in. It would change the face of the entire race on both sides.
If we want to have a discussion on lawlessness, you could look no further than mega-pastors. Accepting large tax-free gifts, failure to report abuse, going against state laws and church by-laws with regard to disclosure....goodness, it's like the criminals are running the jail.
*See Paige Patterson, Darrell Gilyard, Mac Brunson, Steve Gaines
But a note on Dobson.....he's been a little "out there" lately and I think I'll let my Bible and my conscience do my deciding, not Dobson. Again, JMHO. :-)
10:13 PM, February 02, 2008
Amen! Ever notice how Dobson does not speak out against the Emergent church and their stance on there being no absolute truth? There is a reason...his son has a 'skateboard ministry' but seems to be Emergent in beliefs.
Here is his fulltime job...I am trying to figure how he makes a living.....
http://www.ryandobson.com/
oops, here is the link
If Huckabee wins the nomination, his problems will begin. For one thing, I am becoming concerned that his slogan is 'Christian Leadership". With that slogan, he is inviting a fine tooth comb into his 'religous' activities.
The secular media is going to have a field day with his Bill Gothard links in Ark. They will publisize Gothard's quote that God told him to build a runway at his 3,000 acre retreat in the woods for Air Force One because he will host the president. Huck had Gothard develop a character curriculum for Ark Public Schools. Huck praises Gothards seminars as changing his life back in college. If that does not scare you, you know nothing about Gothard.
Now, because he has no war chest he is going into churches (Dems have been doing this for decades) to preach and ask for votes. Problem is, he will be held to a higher standard and the media will want to know about the adulterous minister at Trinity or the pedophile at BBC and Huck will say what? Give a sermon on cheap grace? He has already fibbed about his stance on the paper he signed about submission in marriage. He called it mutual submission in the debate but that is NOT what the paper he signed said at all. What the paper said would not go over well with the general public.
He has more problems but my point is that if he wins the primary this all will be picked apart and the Dem will end up looking like they have MORE integrity even though they don't. The media always times things to come out for the best effect.
This is the worst field of candidates I can remember.
I may just pull out Colson's Kingdoms in Conflict and read it again.
I know we've said this before but in my light bulb moment I will say again.
Remember the deacon officer I went to for high blood pressure after the report was read????
He smirked when explaining to me that BBC hadn't committed a crime because the LAW said that if the abused child was now an adult when the one with knowledge of the abuse found out......bam! SG didn't HAVE to report the abuse because he had a legal loop hole!!!
That is completely opposite of the way a regenerated heart / a Christian would desire to respond.
A person with a heart to please and obey God would err on the side of the law...not freeing themselves from any responsibility or thinking they got under the radar.
A person with a regenerated heart.....one becoming sanctified by Christ supernaturally...would think....there's a good reason for this law and I want to do all that I can that is right for all the people involved...particularly one that has been injured but MOST IMPORTANTLY to make sure that God was honored more than himself or anyone else.
Legalism isn't wanting to obey the commandments in the Bible.
Legalism is our thinking that any thing we do makes us something Christian or deserving.
We can't do anything right or good without God prompting us, cleansing us, taking our pile of clay and molding us into who we He created us to be.
We aren't free to get under the radar!!!
We are free to obey God's Word and reflect His character...no matter the cost to us.
Our lives don't even belong to us....how can worldly fame or comforts be formost in a mind and heart that is being supernaturally transformed to the likness of God????
We are struggling to work out our salvation because God.....a mighty fortress is our God!!!!!
is changing us and training us and teaching us ...sometimes very painfully.
It hurts and isn't comfortable to have your heart and mind regenerated by GOD.
This isn't a formula...that's what we left behind us.
Now we move forward....bending and submitting to His will and His Word ...and as He molds us and it hurts and as we become more strange to the world....we say thank you God for knowing me and loving me so much.
When someone as ADD as I am has a light bulb moment..... it's a sweet time.
"Remember the deacon officer I went to for high blood pressure after the report was read????"
Just to clarify, that's "deacon officer physician."
gmommy: I'm not aware of any state in the country in which the law actually says that a minister doesn't have to report child sex abuse if the child has now reached adulthood. That's a mere interpretation of the law, and it's a very self-serving one, and it's one that's been put forward by lots of church leaders. They sit tight, shush the kid, wait for the kid to grow up, and then when the news finally does break, they thumb their nose. Lots of district attorneys around the country would undoubtedly disagree with that interpretation of the law. But of course, the bottom line is that you're absolutely right. Wholly apart from the law, it's immoral, unconscionable, and unChristian. And yet, this is the interpretation we see church leaders put forward because it serves to protect THEM.
Lin said...
Here is his fulltime job...I am trying to figure how he makes a living.....
How else?
Christa,
that's part of my point...CHRISTIAN/changed hearts/ renewed minds DO NOT respond like this.
We have all been discussing legalism and the law from a Biblical place but it all fits together!
Some how...and I can't see hearts.... these SBC leaders have gotten so full of themselves and so far away from desiring to honor and obey God...
the Bible NEVER teaches to get under the radar of right and good or the law.....it NEVER teaches to put man's reputations or a church building before doing what is right before God.
It DOES teach about what kind of people can do these things and not fall on their face in shame.
The fact that we are outraged and that our hearts are broken about this sin MORE than UNITY at all cost....is a THANK YOU GOD!!!!
Okay....here is a concern. I just had a friend drop by...a member of BBC. She said, "Are you coming tonight to hear Huckabee?!" She is of the opinion that if BBC "endorses" him, he's the best. Okay, I know that is wrong on so many levels...but WHEN are people going to research and think for themselves?
And yes, I shared some concerns.
:-)
Nass,
Honest question. Which part of the Law? Do you mean the Jewish law in the O.T.? The dietary laws? Just the Ten Commandments? Just trying to grasp what you mean by "the Law."
Good question that I am not sure I can answer completely but I will try. We have the 2 commandments that Jesus tells us that all the Law and the prophets depend on.
Mat 22:35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law? 37 And he said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.
Now OC tell us that love fulfills the Law, Romans 13:10. So he has to be right. But let’s look at the rest of it.
Romans 13:1-10
13 1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. 8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
I don’t know how we can read this any other way than to say that we are to be under subjection to the law. This would be our civil law that is based on the civil law of the WORD. Levitical law.
Now if we accept that we are indeed subject to the civil law of the bible (even down to capital punishment) then lets look at the 10 commandments next.
Are there any of the 10 commandments that we can break or not obey that don’t violate the 2 commandments that Jesus reinforces in Mat 22? When Jesus tells us that they all depend on the 2?
If we love our neighbor as ourselves and we love God with all our hearts, what levitical law will we not fulfill? Just one example is the part of the old levitical law that says we don’t glean our fields all the way out to the edge (Lev 23:22). Does this not more or less compare to our welfare system today? What about the system for forgiveness of debts in the Levitical law? Does this compare with our bankruptcy laws today?
We can find every one of the ten commandments in the NT. Email me if you want scriptural references for those. I t may take me a few days, what I have is hand written and will need to be typed out.
I guess I look at it from the NT going back to the OT. Can anyone name a law that existed in the law of Moses that we can’t find some semblance of today in our civil law? Can anyone name a law that existed then that isn’t covered by the “law of love” (2 commandments) today?
Now I sort of hit a stump at the ceremonial law. All the eating and sacrificial stuff. From what I can tell, this is intended as a fleshly picture of things to come in a spiritual sense. We no longer perform these laws in a fleshly sense but there are hints of them existing in a spiritual sense. Especially when we get to Revelations. So I can’t show you Levitical law dealing with show bread, lampstands and sacrifice but I am not willing to concede that they don’t exist and apply. Or that they weren’t a picture of things to come and now that they have come, are no longer required.
Does this help?
Lin said...
Here is his fulltime job...I am trying to figure how he makes a living.....
How else?
1:39 PM, February 03, 2008
Yeah, but come one...you think skateboarders are sending in big checks?
Have you ever been to a skateboard park? We have one and I can tell you that there are families that travel the country to go to them. Everyone there looks like a Carny.
Wanna know why I was there? Facilitating a photo shoot for the mega. Need I say more?
"Need I say more?"
No, not really!
"And he said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."
Here is a link to the 10C:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=20&version=47
When you read them in context...things look a bit different. For example, I find it interesting that when God gave these 10 to Israel, HE did not include the two above on the tablets. We can find both of them somewhere in the OT...there are tons of laws. I don't know what that means except, I find it interesting.
Ez and I have had a kind of backchannel going on about the Law. I think it is all very confusing. Most of us raised in Dipsy churches were taught that the law was fulfilled with Christ and the remaining law is to love.
Reformed people bring OT law to the NC and show where many of them are repeated. They say the moral and civil law cross over. Just not the ceremonial law. (Although, I have met some who seem to believe the Levitical Priesthood is still in force...but that is a topic for another day)
Be careful when reading the word "Law" in the NT. It may not always be referring to the Mosaic Law. Check the Greek on it.
I think what has been missing from Dipsy teaching is the OT. We cannot even begin to understand what Christ did for us until we understand what it meant to be under the law. I also believe that Dipsy's by doing this sort of usher in a Cheap Grace 'thinking' that teaches sin is not that big of a deal. We are seeing the fruits of decades of that teaching now. Sin is a huge deal. Jesus did not sacrifice so we could continue in sin as we wish and think it no big deal.
The verses that were quoted earlier from 1 John prove that. But most want to stop at reading, 'if we say we don't sin we are a liar'. As if that means we are expected to continue in sin. As if sin is normal. If we think it is, we may have a huge problem.
Understanding the law helps us see what is sin and appreciate why we are no longer under it. As Paul said, the law is a 'tutor'. That word in Greek signifies a slave in a Roman household whose job it was to follow the kids around and make sure they stayed out of trouble or did not get hurt. That was this slave's only job. Our translations don't do the meaning justice. That is what the Law was...a tutor like that.
boy, this is long.....anyway, I have tons of respect for Ezekial and his study of scripture. And he has helped me quite a bit on several things in scripture. I am not sure we are on the exact same page with this but it is something we should all be Bereans about. And even if some of us are not on the same page, so what? It is a great topic to discuss.
Hey Folks: Hillary is a lot more dangerous than Huckabee because she stands a good chance of being the choice of the democrats.
If she is elected president, are there any suggestions for a good country to move to?
Concerned said, "...but WHEN are people going to research and think for themselves?"
This is the problem...the answer to your question IMHO is that they aren't EVER going to research and think for themselves. THAT is part of the problem. The frightening thing to this is that even if they did, they STILL might not even see things as they are.
lin...
I have missed out on some things lately on the blog. Am trying to catch up a bit and saw this 'skateboarding' thing. What is this all about? Tell me about it.
Ima
I am as usual having problems posting, but I wanted to say this about Paul Washer . . .
Ever since I found this man, I have wanted to hear more from him BECAUSE OF his intensity. Too many people are afraid to be intense about things of God as we are supposed to be 'nice' and 'non-threatening.' Also, too many people are intimidated by the secular culture. We need MORE intensity, not less. God is not just love; He is holy. People are being so misled by hearing only that God is Love without hearing that God is Holy as well.
I've been reading here and would like share some thoughts:
1. Voting for a Mormon wouldn't bother me nearly as much as voting for a "Warren-loving" Christian. The later can do much more harm to Christianity IMO
2. Voting for the best person regardless of party SOUNDS wonderful until we realize all the party members that will be brought in to fill positions of influence. IMO, that works better on a local rather than national level.
3. I don't think I can stay home and not vote (no matter how disgusted I am) when I remember how many have sacrificed for my freedom.
4. I will force myself to remember that great Reagan quote, "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you." :{
5. I am grateful to the Lord that my citizenship is in heaven.
I love America, but I have finally realized after many years, that while our country is the best hope of freedom, while we need to do our best to maintain her ideals, while we need to do all we can to protect her, things are only going to be what we want when the Lord returns. The sooner, the better.
Christa -
I think you and I agree about more than we disagree about. Maybe I have just given up on church leadership, but I don't believe they ever will be sorry or ever apologize. Even if a victim gets a victory in court it is a hollow victory at best - because the church is not sorry. This is a problem that is most visible in the church leadership but this is a sin problem that sits with every member of these churches.
My comment about churches all having problems is that while I find the sin of sexual abuse to be horrific, God finds ALL sin to be equally offensive. I know (all too well) that sexual sins often leave wounds that last a lifetime, but in God's eyes those sins that were committed against me or any other victim are no worse than when I gossip about someone. (And I find that a bitter reality to accept, but often God's reality is not easy to accept.) All sin cost Jesus on the cross the same price.
And finally, I agree it is illegal for pastors to not report it. Yet, even in our own county there was no criminal action, and that is a trend that is nationwide. So while the DA's may not agree with the interpretation, nothing is being done about it either. Actions speak louder than words - the truth of the matter is the legal community views this as a church problem and the churches view it as a legal problem and both get to walk away and do nothing about it.
SA happens because of secrecy. And both the legal system and the churches promote that through their inaction. Again call me cynical, but I have no hope in justice of any kind spiritually or legally on this planet. I gave up on that a long time ago. And while some hope for a better tomorrow, I to have given up on that. I see the same thing happening today that happened twenty years ago. So we talk about it, and we blog about it. And for those who have suffered, I think there is some comfort in knowing they are not alone. (It was for me.) But I don't feel that we are "winning" in this battle at all. And I don't see that trend changing any time in the future.
Ezekiel -
I was speaking to a mindset that because we live under New Testament grace the Old Testament doesn't apply. I realize that mindset doesn't come up here very often if ever any more. It was more out of habit to put my disclaimer there. And while we are on the topic, when I was referring to OT law I was speaking about things such as passover, annual trip to temple, a priest offering up the sacrifice, no direct way to the Savior etc. I am not sure what I said that made it seem like I was promoting lawlessness. I apologize for that. i did not mean to insinuate that in any way. I think the concept of "free grace" is extremely dangerous - and has led many people astray. I think there is nothing we can do to revoke our salvation, and nothing we can do to earn it either. However, once a child of God, with the Holy Spirit indwelling, our life had best reflect that. We must be striving to greater righteousness, and we must be displaying the fruits of the spirit. This is not to say we must "perform" but rather as the Holy Spirit dwells within us, and as we draw closer to the face of God, our lives will reflect that. Jesus says the greatest commandment is to love one another It is hard for me to not love a person, and to treat them with dignity, when I remember and focus on who God is.
That is all I was trying to say. Hopefully I cleared it up. Thanks for explaining your position.
Cute?
Whatever.
WWJD said...
OKay well I have been reading this a long time. How can yall still be so mad. The vidoes were so so funny. Hilariously so. Self effacing & cute. Jamey was on that microphone. Too much. Huckabee is on a saving bellevue blog? Are yall that versed in the candidates? I think you need to ask God why you are so hurt. Then find somebody to talk to. When you start all this about Pastor Steve being sick and what not and the interns. Now the primary race. Where do you find the time? Run bookworm girl run.
6:10 PM, February 03, 2008
I am versed enough in the backgrounds of the candidates to know that Huckabee is not a true conservative. In fact, he's a socialist. He wants more government programs. Any conservative who's legit would tell you that we don't need Big Government. We need LESS government.
WWJD -
Thanks for the advice, but I think I will stay put unless Ms. Nass tells me it is time to move along. Discussion, even disagreement, can lead to growth. I certainly don't want to try to speak for anyone else, but I know why I am hurt. Sin starting with the pastoral staff and moving through the congregation hurts lots of people. As for talking about it, isn't that what you are telling us to not do... Gosh, it is all so confusing...
bkwormgirl
Ima, check this out:
http://www.palau.org/lpea/ministries/skate.php
Ryan Dobson has hooked up with Jeff Baldwin (Alec Baldwin's brother). There is this whole festival/skateboard thing. Jeff Baldwin has been working with Palau for a while now.
Dear Brother and Sisters: Contrary there is much that can be done with regards to the laws in our state. It is so frustrating to people like Christa, myself and others when we constantly speak out about child sexual abuse and it seems no one is listening or cares. But we MUST not ever stop, not even for one minute.
This past Thursday I was in Nashville meeting with some people in an effort to make an impact. I expressed my intent and fervent desire to see the criminal statutes in Tennessee toughen even more. They were changed two years ago but we need to do more. I am attempting to get the laws changed to follow those in Maryland. But it does take time and patience. What was so rewarding was the people I met with agreed with me. And trust me, we can make it happen.
Contact your local legislators and make your voice and opinion known. Don’t give up and say there is nothing we can do. There is a lot we can do and we will. As I have said many times I do count it joy that I was allowed to suffer the abuse I did and be able to turn it for good. There is hardly a day that goes by that I do not hear from a victim or a family member asking for help. They want to be able to trust and have hope again.
It is a long road we travel but I have seen miracles when a victim turns to becoming a survivor and just maybe an advocate. I know I am one of them and there are others that post here as well. The more light we shine on this evil crime; the better it will be for victims.
Is so easy to be critical but sometimes that can consume us and we lose sight of our goal. I want a dialogue with these religious leaders that make excuses and stall. More can and will be accomplished when we have dialogue. We have seen some changes in Memphis with regards to the Catholic Church. They have been frustratingly small yet there have been some positive changes. Are they transparent and truthful, not even close? Yet we keep plugging away. I was told many years ago I would not know some of the victims that I have helped by what I do. That is so true for many of you too that speak out. So many victims want to be able to speak of their abuse publicly but they cannot. That is where people like Christa, Mike Coode, Ann Brentwood, Susan Vance, Anna Whalley and I step in for them. And we don’t do it full time; most of us have real jobs and families. Right now I am really tied up with my son, Kevin who came back from Iraq not well. In fact he is still seriously sick. Yet I would not think for one minute about giving up. Too many people depend on us. It should never be about us but the victims.
So please don’t give up and feel you are not doing any good. Keep that faith you have. Contact that legislator and ask them for help. We will not let these evil people that prey on the innocent and defenseless win. No way.
David Brown
davidbrown@bigriver.net
901/569-4500
Link.
It's Stephen Baldwin, not "Jeff."
Bkworm Girl: You go! Of course you stay here! You are among friends.
:-)
Francesca said: "1. Voting for a Mormon wouldn't bother me nearly as much as voting for a "Warren-loving" Christian. The later can do much more harm to Christianity."
I agree.
Bkwormgirl,
No apology required unless it is from me to you. I certainly didn't intend to accuse you of promoting lawlessness. I was simply responding to the "under the law" statement as a way of initiating a discussion on it. Nothing personal intended.
By the way your clarification while not needed, was really good.
concernedSBCer said...
Francesca said: "1. Voting for a Mormon wouldn't bother me nearly as much as voting for a "Warren-loving" Christian. The later can do much more harm to Christianity."
I agree.
9:11 PM, February 03, 2008
I concur as well. I will say this...with all due respect...if your main criteria for voting someone is their religion, maybe one should not vote. I say this because with so much at stake, one's religious beliefs is not as important as the economy or the war on terror. Vote based on issues, not who's the most Christian.
Well, did anyone go tonight or watch the internet feed of Mike Huckabee at Bellevue? If so, what did you think?
It's Stephen Baldwin, not "Jeff."
Thanks Nass. I never get them right.
Lynn brings up a good point. While I would hope that core moral beliefs are present, the "religion" should not matter as much. Jimmy Carter proclaimed his Christianity far and near and just about ruined our country. We DO need someone with ethics and integrity and logic and belief in God and I think those things will translate into better policies. If one is standing on a firm foundation of right, the other issues *should* fall into place. My concern comes in when people are given carte blanche BECAUSE they say they are Christian. Like we can just assume they will do a great job. A respect for God, a life that is being lived according to His Word, and a record that can be verified (remember "Trust but Verify"???) is necessary.
This is an excerpt from an e-mail I received today. I have the writer's permission to post it.
"You know what irks me? People who come on blogs and tell people what they should and should not talk about. Think of going to someone's backyard barbecue and going up to a group of people and telling them what they should or should not be talking about. That is an insult to the host and everyone there. If they don't like what is discussed, then leave. Some people feel they 'own' the blogosphere because it is public. I don't care if they disagree and want to engage in the discussion, but to tell me NOT to discuss it is ridiculous. It is downright bad manners."
So if the shoe fits....
Paul teaches freedom from the law and proper valuation of the law in Galatians and Romans. See especially Romans 3, 6 and 7.
While we are indeed free from the law and justified totally separate from any works of the law, the law still exists and has value and purpose. I think that is the bottom line point of my comments.
Let’s look at Romans 3:31:
31” Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.”
MacAuthur says of 3:31...
”Knowing he (Paul) would be accused of antinomianism (being against the law) for arguing that a man was justified apart from keeping the law, Paul introduced here the defense he later developed in chapters 6 and 7. through faith....we establish the law. Salvation by grace through faith does not denigrate the law, but underscores its true importance: (1) by providing a payment for the penalty of death, which the law required for failing to keep it; (2) by fulfilling the law’s original purpose, which is to serve as a tutor to show mankind’s utter inability to obey God’s righteous demands and to drive people to Christ (Gal 3:24); and (3) by giving believers the capacity to obey it (Rom 8:3,4)
Matthew Henry says it this way:
”He obviates an objection (v. 31), as if this doctrine did nullify the law, which they knew came from God: "No," says he, "though we do say that the law will not justify us, yet we do not therefore say that it was given in vain, or is of no use to us; no, we establish the right use of the law, and secure its standing, by fixing it on the right basis. The law is still of use to convince us of what is past, and to direct us for the future; though we cannot be saved by it as a covenant, yet we own it, and submit to it, as a rule in the hand of the Mediator, subordinate to the law of grace; and so are so far from overthrowing that we establish the law." Let those consider this who deny the obligation of the moral law on believers.
The way it seems most clear to me is to say it this way:
Since we are justified by faith and faith alone through or by no works of our own, as a people clothed in His righteousness, we uphold the law through the work of His Grace in our lives. He has totally delivered us from a life where we are slaves to sin. We are to serve Him in all His righteousness.
We are told many times to stop sinning, to not sin intentionally and to practice righteousness. How do we know what sin is or what righteousness is if we don’t have the law?
Hey Guys,
What no one is talking about is the danger that the ' UN Treaty for the Child' will be ratified if Hillary, Obama, or possibly Mccain were to win.
Google the 'UN Treaty for the Child'..oh, it sounds just lovely, doesn't it? But read on...basically, as parents, you will not be allowed to force your child to go to YOUR church...parental rights will be squashed and the UN will make decisions regarding your child..
And homeschooling? Oh, you can forget ALL about that!!!
It will make the hairs on your neck stand on end..All that is necessary is for the U.S. Senate to ratify it and have the U.S. President sign it, and then hand over our soverinty to the U.N.
Hillary has already attended many conferences on this treaty..and she's chomping at the bit to take parental authority away from parents.
Ya know, on further thought, just sitting here thinking..
I ASSUME that parents will be horrified to have their control removed..but then again...
I ASSUMED that parents would be horrified to find out that SG set loose a confessed sexual pervert loose on their kids...
And come to find out...it was met with shrugged shoulders.
So what do I know anymore?
But you can count on me to scream from the rooftops on this one.
NBBCOF,
I was there and I thought it was a great message. It was not political at all. It was about being a Christian and how difficult it can be, especially if you are really trying to live for Jesus. I was expecting more politics but all he did was preach the Word.
Now OC tell us that love fulfills the Law, Romans 13:10. So he has to be right. But let’s look at the rest of it...
You said nothing that I didn't.
So I'm not sure what or why you are arguing. It seems we mean the same thing.
But the point I wanted to make was that I thought no one here was promoting lawlessness. I still believe that true.
You can say you saw it here first. This morning's Commercial Appeal.
bkwormgirl: I believe God expects us to do all that we possibly can to protect the young. It's a covenant with the next generation. In that sense, I do not consider clergy sex abuse to be the moral equivalent of gossip. When we know that a high percentage of child molesters have multiple victims, and when we know how the pastorate can provide a perfect position of trust for predatory people, and when we know the horrific harm that it causes to its victims (including the high correlation between suicide and being sexually abused as a child), then I do believe that we have an obligation to do more to protect against it and to reach out to the wounded.
I don't view the work that I do as being primarily about "justice." It's about protected the vulnerable and helping the wounded. In any event, I think for many abuse survivors, the most important component of "justice" is simply having the truth heard and honored. We are witnesses to truth, not enemies of the church.
And despite the enormous hatefulness that has filled my ears from so many Baptist leaders, and despite what often seems like overwhelming odds, I do still hope and believe that we can build a better tomorrow where kids in Baptist churches will be much safer than they are now. There must be effective accountability systems. It's as simple as that. That's true of almost any organization, not just religious organizations. Police officers are subject to independent review boards. (i.e., when abuse is alleged, they don't get reviewed by their partners and buddies) This nation's other major faith groups (Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists, Episcopals and Lutherans) have all seen the need to adopt some form of independent review board system for addressing clergy abuse. This is something positive that has happened in OTHER faith groups because survivors made their voices heard. Things are far from perfect within any of these faith groups, but at least they have begun the process of putting systems in place that allow for victims to report abuse with some hope of being objectively heard. It's sad that Southern Baptists are going to be the last on this, but I believe they eventually will. (And even if denominational leaders can't tell churches who to hire or fire, they can at least provide churches with the resource of trained professionals with experience in dealing with clergy abuse and can provide review and objective information. In other words, they can at least provide a review board that does everything except remove from ministry.) I yearn for the day when I will not have Baptist survivors telling me how much they envy Catholic abuse survivors. It's a bit crazy because there's nothing in any of this for anyone to envy, and yet that's what I wind up frequently hearing, and I understand the reasons.
Bkwormgirl, I'm glad you have found this blog. I'm a bit of an outsider here myself, and drop by only sporadically, but it's a group of people who have always welcomed me, and I am grateful for them, and I know you will be welcomed here as well.
Another newspaper article.
From the Commercial Appeal article on Huckabee's visit to BBC:
In a 37-minute speech, before being swept off stage to head for Chattanooga, Huckabee captivated the nearly 6,000-person crowd with his folksy humor and impassioned pleas to praise the Almighty.
From the Sun Herald (Associated Pres) article:
The former Arkansas governor and Southern Baptist preacher delivered the main evening sermon at Bellevue Baptist Church, which boasts 30,000 members and holds three Sunday services - two during the day and one at night. About 3,000 members heard Huckabee's sermon.
Two questions:
(1) Were there 6,000 or 3,000 present? (And don't say it was 6,000 and 3,000 of them were members -- no one would know that. Maybe the 6,000 count is using "preacher math".)
(2) Is BBC really still claiming to have 30,000 members? C'mon!
Just a typical Baptist church on Sunday night. 27,000 short....
Fox 13 (my favorite) showed a camera shot of the Huckster and the 2nd half of the downstairs seating was completely empty.
3,000 is probably a good estimate on the attendance but many that were there were not Bellevue members. (a lot were Huckabee supporters who came to see and hear him).
The vast majority of members were at home watching the SuperBowl. 30,000 minus 3,000 means 27,000 Bellevue members chose to watch football over going to church. Sad!
Once last comment:
What happened to "Bellevue Loves Memphis"?
How does inviting the Huckster jive with the new "motto"?
Francesca, Gmommy, Lin, and Others...
I have seen comments about Paul Washer from you and would like to recommend that you watch/listen to last evenings message coming from First Baptist Muscle Shoals where Paul Washer is a member and also where Heartcry Mission is located. I am careful to comment on Paul Washer because he would not want the attention. He is one of the most humble men I have ever met. May I ask that you watch his message last evening about Heartcry...I only hope you will be blessed by it as I have been. There are two other messages before his that are worthy of your attention as well. Paul Washer's message starts about half way through the evening service. I can't even begin to do it justice by trying to describe the content...just listen for yourselves.
Paul Washer's Heartcry Missionary Report on the evening of February 3, 2008 at First Baptist Church of Muscle Shoals
Thank You...
Ima
"Francesca said: "1. Voting for a Mormon wouldn't bother me nearly as much as voting for a "Warren-loving" Christian. The later can do much more harm to Christianity."
"
I would also agree...
Ima
Huckabee made a statement that someone questioned his toughness to be president. He made a statement to the effect that of course he was tough enough, he has survived Baptist Business meetings.
And the Bellevue audience roared with laughter.
As if they know what a business meeting is.
Jussayin.
oc.
I know. He kept telling little stories that were supposed to be funny, I guess. But that was the only really funny thing he said all night.
NASS said:
"I know. He kept telling little stories that were supposed to be funny, I guess. But that was the only really funny thing he said all night."
oc says:
But don't you think it ironic, being in that venue?
Heh, Heh..."preacher math".
Maybe it's just me, but I would have been more understanding if the audience would have roared with laughter would he have said that he has survived "Monkey Business Meetings". At least most of that audience would have been able to relate to that, and that would have understandably justified their laughter. Or better their tears.
jussayin'.
oc.
With all this horrible weather, does anyone know how Super Tuesday is going?
If you haven't checked out the FBC Jax blog, there's some commentary regarding the Pastor's Conference. Some of it will astound you.
concernedSBCer said...
With all this horrible weather, does anyone know how Super Tuesday is going?
6:47 PM, February 05, 2008
Huckabee won West Virginia
I didn't vote tonight unfortunately. As soon as I heard tornadoes were on their way, I went home instead.
The reason Huckabee won WV was that WV is a caucus state, and while no one had a clear majority, Romney was leading. So McCain's headquarters suggested the votes his people were casting for him be given to Huckabee instead -- simply so Romney wouldn't win. Ah, politics! Brings out the best in people, doesn't it?
As far as I'm concerned they need to abolish the whole silly caucus and primary system as well as the electoral college. Everyone gets one vote. Everyone votes in one big Super Primary in the spring, and the candidate from each party with the most votes moves on to the general election. In both elections, the polls would open at exactly the same minute in every time zone and close at exactly the same minute. They could open the polls at, say, 7:00 a.m. on the east coast and 4:00 a.m. on the west coast and keep them open for 14 or 15 hours. Alaska and Hawaii could adjust their schedules accordingly. That way the results on the east coast wouldn't affect the results in California.
Now, isn't that easy?
Here is the latest on the storms from the Commercial Appeal with a photo (click on it to enlarge it) of the Sears store at Hickory Ridge Mall that was heavily damaged. Notice the American flag still waving proudly!
NASS said:
"Now, isn't that easy?"
Most excellent!
New BBC Open Forum said...
As far as I'm concerned they need to abolish the whole silly caucus and primary system as well as the electoral college.
Can't we just abolish politians instead? :)
There are still good reasons for the electoral college -- our Founding Parents (see how egalitarian I am becoming?) were wiser than we sometimes recognize.
Hope everyone weathered the first round of storms ok and will do so for the ones coming later tonight!
Junkster said...
Can't we just abolish politians instead? :)
Lynn Says:
Politicians are like dirty diapers. They need to be changed often and for the same reason.
But change for the sake of change isn't always a good thing. That's Obama's whole campaign. People wanted a change in 1976 and 1992. You saw what happened those years!
However, I do believe they need term limits in congress, just like they do for the president. There should be no such thing as a career politician.
so how bad will the second round be...I am just calming down from the hour of panic in my tiny bathroom.
Nass, if we abolish the electoral college then LA, NYC, Miami, Chicago, Houston, etc will elect all our presidents. You might as well stay home.
We are a nation of 'states' and the electoral college protects states. Without it, the states with the biggest cities would always win. It would be more corrupt than it is now.
Here are a few more reasons:
The Framer's reasons for an Electoral College were several. In order to accomodate the small-state/big-state compromise that led to the 2-vote-per-state Senate, they needed a method to allow small states slightly greater weight in selecting a President. There was great fear that, in a strict popular vote election, the urban states would decide all contests, and no candidate would even consider the issues of the smaller and rural states. Yet they wanted the election conducted in the States, not in Congress. The EC solved this, providing a tie-breaker in close elections where the candidate taking the most states (of any size) has an advantage (the two "senate seat" votes). This is precisely what happened in 2000.
Another reason is what we would today call a "firewall." Even in 1787, state politics were dicey enough that no one in, say, Virginia, wanted to absolutely rely on vote-counting in, say, New Jersey. After all, Eldridge Gerry (inventor of the "gerrymander") was a delegate to the Constitutional Convention. In more recent years, vote-counting in Chicago and St. Louis has been quite suspect. In a close election for President, there would be great temptation for local officials to pad the vote if the election was strictly by popular vote. Even with the EC it happens (e.g. 1960 Chicago), but the damage cannot extend past the given state's electors. Note that much of the controversy in Florida in 2000 involved local vote counting practices, state election official's behavior, and the Florida Supreme Court's wholesale rewriting of election law. Which brings up the next point...
A third (and probably more modern) reason is that recounts in a close election are also limited to the state or states in question. Consider the mess in Florida. Then consider the mess of a nationwide recount, with 50 state Supreme Courts, 50 sets of state election officials, and tens of thousands of local election boards. Some of whom are going to cheat to get their man over. There is no natural closure in a close election in this kind of system. We'd still be at it.
Lastly, there is the matter of needing a majority. In the electoral vote system, it is quite possible to have a majority of electoral votes without a majority of popular votes -- the last President to be elected with a popular vote majority was George Bush the Elder. Clinton, Carter, Nixon (1968) and Kennedy all were elected with less than 50% of the popular vote. But the EC all gave them a majority as the splinter party votes were eliminated at the state level. Of third-party candidates in recent history, only George Wallace in 1968 won any states. In a direct vote system, the requirement for a majority would be necessarily abolished. This is perhaps acceptable, but could lead to Presidents elected with over 60% opposition.
I'm not ignorant of why the EC was established, and I don't have as much of a problem with the EC as I do the primary system, but I still don't like it. As you said, it's why a presidential candidate could conceivably get less votes than his opponent but still win the election. And if there's a third party candidate running (like Perot) who drains off enough votes so that no one gets at least 50% of the vote, they should have a run-off between the top two candidates.
I think the electoral process in this country is way more complicated than it needs to be, but you make some valid points.
gmommy said...
so how bad will the second round be...I am just calming down from the hour of panic in my tiny bathroom.
9:19 PM, February 05, 2008
I'm not sure. I'm looking at the radar right now and I don't see as many hook echos as we did with the other line (Hook echos are a good indication of strong winds, with possible rotation which produces tornadoes).
And BTW....Just what the heck is wrong with people? The city gets whacked by huge twisters....and these idiots in Hickory Hill go for the 5 fingered discount at the mall? Thats messed up.
Have the people who run the T-sirens in Shelby County ever heard the story of the boy who cried wolf? Just wonderin'.
Lynn,
It's Hickory Hill. It's Memphis. 'Nuff said.
The police have a perfect remedy for that problem though. It's called "Looters will be shot." Harsh but effective.
the alarms are driving me NUTS
Junkster said:
"Can't we just abolish politians instead? :)"
oc says:
Wait. Who will lie to us on a consistent basis?
Who will convince us that it feels good while the knife twists?
Who will speak sweet nothings in our ear, while their hand is in our pockets?
Oh yeah. We still have mega pastors.
Never mind.
oc.
Sadly,
One person was killed as a result of the storm after a building collapsed. :(
gmommy said...
the alarms are driving me NUTS
9:38 PM, February 05, 2008
I bet. What caused this round of sirens is that some amateur reported something he thought was a tornado over in Arkansas. Logically, the National Weather Service issued a tornado warning to Shelby County in response.
Hey! has anyone seen our moonbat mayor anywhere?
Whenever it would stop for a minute this afternoon they'd come over the loudspeaker and announce, This was a test of the emergency warning system." People's nerves are on edge enough as it is. Why would you "test the system" during a storm! If they're "testing the system" again tonight I'm going to go down there and rip the wires out of that thing with my bare hands -- tomorrow.
I wonder if lightning ever strikes the three big crosses at Bellevue. They're very tall, constructed of steel -- three perfect lightning rods.
If the mayor's in town, I'm sure he's hiding in his basement tonight, but you can bet he'll be out tomorrow "touring the hardest hit areas" with a camera crew in tow.
The audio of Mike Huckabee's sermon at Bellevue Sunday night is now available here.
The worst appears to be over.
I think at worst, we will see some hail and strong winds and heavy downpours. I don't think we will have another outbreak like we had this afternoon.
New BBC Open Forum said...
I wonder if lightning ever strikes the three big crosses at Bellevue. They're very tall, constructed of steel -- three perfect lightning rods.
Good question.
OC, you are the curious sort ... why don't you go out and stand under them for a while tonight and see?
Someone on Fark.com's is reporting that the Fed Ex facility at Memphis International took some damage as well
Lin and Nass:
One VERY good reason not to do away with the electoral college system:
HILLARY CLINTON WANTS TO DO AWAY WITH IT!!!
That makes me VERY suspicious!!!!
New BBC Open Forum said...
"I wonder if lightning ever strikes the three big crosses at Bellevue. They're very tall, constructed of steel -- three perfect lightning rods."
They are very well grounded, just like BBC used to be:)
Mom4,
Those crosses aren't as well grounded as one might think.
Junkster,
I'm am more than a little scorched. Thanks....FRIEND.
Jussayin'.
oc.
Okay, going back to thread topic....should interns and other employees be using work time to produce things like these? Is it God-honoring?
If the answer is no.....how do you think things have sunk this low....and how is the trend to be reversed?
HILLARY CLINTON WANTS TO DO AWAY WITH IT!!!
That makes me VERY suspicious!!!!
11:59 AM, February 06, 2008
She would be guaranteed the presidency. Think of the walking around money for big city mayors to hand out. How many big city mayors are dems? I mean, in Chicago, you can vote as often as you like if you are a dem.
Concernedsbcer said:
Okay, going back to thread topic....should interns and other employees be using work time to produce things like these? Is it God-honoring?
If the answer is no.....how do you think things have sunk this low....and how is the trend to be reversed?
oc says:
The answer is "no". It is the answer that should have been applied more often. No, I am not your friend, I am your parent. No, it's not important that I be 'cool', I am you mentor, maybe your youth minister, maybe your pastor. No, I will not tolerate what the world wants me to accept, I will abide by Biblical precepts. No, I will not worry about being 'nice', because if I'm 'nice', you will not take me nor my Lord seriously.
And in my opinion. NO, the trend will not be reversed. Until He comes again.
Jussayin'.
oc.
oc said...
Junkster,
I'm am more than a little scorched. Thanks....FRIEND.
Heh heh. You know I love ya, bro. I'd never leave you standing out there in the rain without sharing my umbrella.
Junkster said:
Heh heh. You know I love ya, bro. I'd never leave you standing out there in the rain without sharing my umbrella.
oc says:
That umbrella is what drew the lightning. You see, I was under the crosses, just like you asked me too...
Officials of Union University have set up a blog with photos of the damage and all the latest information on the recovery efforts there.
Lin said...
HILLARY CLINTON WANTS TO DO AWAY WITH IT!!!
That makes me VERY suspicious!!!!
11:59 AM, February 06, 2008
She would be guaranteed the presidency. Think of the walking around money for big city mayors to hand out. How many big city mayors are dems? I mean, in Chicago, you can vote as often as you like if you are a dem.
8:35 PM, February 06, 2008
You don't have to go to Chicago for an example. Look how bad Memphis has become under the democratic leadership of Herenton. Speaking of whom, has he gotten out of the basement yet?
Yes, Mayor Willie and Mayor Wharton spoke to the media today.
what did they say? I can't find the story anywhere?
I don't remember. Not much, I don't think. They had a news conference at 1:30 this afternoon. It's mentioned here.
" I mean, in Chicago, you can vote as often as you like if you are a dem."
In Chicago, you can vote even if you are DEAD!
Francesca...
"In Chicago, you can vote even if you are DEAD!"
Comment: With or without the hanging chads?
Romney just dropped out.
McCain will be the Republiciam nominee.
Any chance of an independent rising up?
We do not have a choice.
concernedSBCer said...
Romney just dropped out.
McCain will be the Republiciam nominee.
Any chance of an independent rising up?
We do not have a choice.
12:11 PM, February 07, 2008
I think I will do what James Dobson's doing...just sitting this one out.
Lynn, I understand.....but you just can't. Men have died so we can vote....we can't give away that freedom.
What a rock and a hard place.
"What a rock and a hard place... "
... which we find ourselves between.
concernedSBCer said...
Lynn, I understand.....but you just can't. Men have died so we can vote....we can't give away that freedom.
What a rock and a hard place.
9:04 PM, February 07, 2008
I would rather not vote than give it to someone who I know for a fact will destroy the country.
I heard some rumors from the news media a while back that Bloomberg may come out as an independent...for whatever that is worth.
New BBC Open Forum said...
"What a rock and a hard place... "
... which we find ourselves between.
You mean "...between which we find ourselves".
But who's the rock and who's the hard place? Maybe it should be "What a block-head and a hard-head..."
imaresistor said:
"I heard some rumors from the news media a while back that Bloomberg may come out as an independent...for whatever that is worth."
9:39 PM, February 07, 2008
*****
Ahh, Bloomberg, a RINO (Republican In Name Only) who quit the Republican party last June, declaring himself an Independent.
Not sure who he would take votes from.
I guess you guys don't know about the fireworks Bellevue was shooting tonight. We were driving home about 6:30 and saw shells bursting over I-40, coming from the near the softball fields. Wonder if they were they celebrating Chinese New Year?
concernedSBCer said...
Lynn, I understand.....but you just can't. Men have died so we can vote....we can't give away that freedom.
============
I agree! The privilege of voting has been bought with the precious blood of many. To not vote is a sin IMO. Lynn, to make decisions based on how you "feel" is deceptive. The fact is as Americans we have a duty to exercise the freedom we have to vote. As Christians, after we have done our duty, we leave the results with God who ultimately rules over all.
"For promotion comes neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south. BUT GOD is the judge; HE PUTS DOWN ONE AND SETS UP ANOTHER." (Psalm 75:6)
Lynn said:
I think I will do what James Dobson's doing...just sitting this one out.
Hello blog friends.....Haven't chimed in in awhile but still here and listening to you all...
Well it seems James Dobson has made a decision all of a sudden to back the Huck.......My thoughts he new all the time who he would vote for...Politics in America....No one to trust anymore.....
I have heard that James Dobson was awaiting the end of the primary before coming out with his support for obvious reasons. He was hedging on the primary winner because while he did not want to come out in support of McCain, he did not want to support Huckabee or Romney and then change his support afterwards. A cautious move for someone in his position, but not one that I agree with.
I can't see any Christian failing to vote against anyone who supports abortion and the liberal platform of the purveyors of the social gospel. Even if McCain does win the Republican Primary, as liberal as he is, I would still vote for him rather than see Obama or Clinton in office. How can I face the Lord knowing I put my personal feelings or my pocketbook above the life of an innocent child?
"Politics in America....No one to trust anymore....."
Pulpits in America...
Regarding Ima's post of 02/04 at 8:28 PM, I just listened to that sermon by Paul Washer and was left with such a desire to be a part of what he is talking about. I really don't know exactly what I can do, but I don't want to miss this movement of God.
I encourage all of you to listen to this. You will not be sorry you spent the 23 minutes. After hearing this, I felt that things are beginning to turn concerning the true Gospel and away from this false, man-centered stuff we are all sick of.
Truly inspiring and encouraging.
MOM4 said...
I have heard that James Dobson was awaiting the end of the primary before coming out with his support for obvious reasons. He was hedging on the primary winner because while he did not want to come out in support of McCain, he did not want to support Huckabee or Romney and then change his support afterwards. A cautious move for someone in his position, but not one that I agree with.
I can't see any Christian failing to vote against anyone who supports abortion and the liberal platform of the purveyors of the social gospel. Even if McCain does win the Republican Primary, as liberal as he is, I would still vote for him rather than see Obama or Clinton in office. How can I face the Lord knowing I put my personal feelings or my pocketbook above the life of an innocent child?
3:34 PM, February 08, 2008
Heres the thing with McCain....
McCain-Feingold = Campaign Finance Reform that eroded away part of the 1st Amendment of the Constitution
McCain-Kennedy = Open Borders and illegals are welcome to stay
McCain-Leiberman = Environmental bill based on unproven theories that will, if implemented will cost the country 1 TRILLION Dollars a year.
I'm not concerned about the abortion issue because the president cannot change that. Right now, even though Bush has appointed conservative judges, the Supreme Court is no where near overturning Roe v. Wade. All of the remaining candidates will move the United States even closer to destruction than Bush has. If our economy goes, everything goes. In case you don't know, New York city businesses have begun accepting the EURO Currency. Thats how bad of shape our economy is in right now. Thats why I will not vote for McCain, even against a socialist (Obama) and a communist (Hillary)
Normally, I don't get involved with discussions on politics...for whatever reason I am not sure, I just don't. It is a quick and certain way to loose any friends one might have left for one thing. Reading the blog and reading the many different opinions concerning our next president does lead me to say this...there is not one, no not even one, that is out there to choose from that I can actually chose from. Now, is that not the most pitiful situation to be in? The only hope I can see at this point is if somebody comes out as an independent that we can be confident in. A Christian...one that is Christ like. May we all pray for this together, daily.
Ima
Here is the link to Paul Washer's HeartCry Update, the report he gave at First Baptist Muscle Shoals on 02-03-08 on his recent trip to Peru and comments on other things as well. It would be so well worth your time to listen to this:
Paul Washer
the political discussion.....
Here's my dilemma - McCain is a Democrat wannabe at times. Obvious that he crossed over the line. So from my viewpoint, he isn't a principled person. He has a character flaw (and we all do). He is a politician to the core basically. Will say or do whatever to get elected.
So that same approach rules out voting for Clinton.
My thots are now 'leaning' to voting based on character since my sense of politics is violated and no hope for an agenda that I could endorse.
That leaves me only the option of Obama. He does seem to have a sense of doing what is right (politics aside). He seems to respect family. And regardless of the extremes of his local church and some of the views held there, he professes to be a Christian. I don't think we can make more of that than what it is - I mean, Hillary and Bill both profess!
So regardless of who is elected, we are facing some issues that will violate many of the beliefs we hold.
Basing my vote on the apparent 'character' of the candidate seems to be the most valid.
Not sayin' I will actually do it, but this is one of my thots at this point.
Eprov...
Okay, given what you say is true...what about the Muslim heritage aspect of Obama? I am even concerned that his name alone carries with it implications of a Muslim nature? Would he not be sympathetic to the Islamic world?
I can't vote for Obama - inexperienced (not even one complete term as Senator), too young, supports a VERY questionable church, an unknown, really, except for his charismatic personality. A charismatic personality can hide many, many things as we have seen before. He might be a possibility in a few years. JMO
From the choices we have...which stink....at this point my gut is also that Obama is the better of the bad choices.
I am fearful about his church ties and the implications of his name.
He IS a thinker so maybe he will use his Christian beliefs to think thru all situations like we all should do.
Hillary is too close to the word Lynn used and the people that hate us will REALLY hate her...plus she is SO angry.
McCain is so arrogant and slow to own his own issues.
He could put us in danger just to not look weak....his ego and pride over the good of the country.
Could someone else come out as an independent still?????
No one throw rocks at me...it's just my opinion.
One question....does anyone think Mrs. Obama has any resemblance to Hillary???????? I saw one speech where she was kinda scary...not like the nice lady on Oprah.
It seems that the direction of the comments on this blog has shifted from its original thread to a spirited discussion and debate about the upcoming election and the candidates.
Oh, well. With only 10 more months to go until the election, I guess that time is running out.
But if the topic has to be about candidates, then here is something to think about...
If the key issue for Christians is abortion (and I am firmly a pro-lifer), then what do we do if all candidates support abortion?
Come on, people. Just because a Republican says they are against abortion doesn't mean they are. Politicians will say whatever they have to in order to get elected. Since Roe vs. Wade, we have had 4 Republicans in office. Has anyone of them succeeded in overturning it? Did they ever really have a chance?
Don't vote for someone who is in favor of abortion. But remember, God is in control of the destiny of America. Don't doubt God's power, purpose, or plan. If God's plan is for America to fall, then it will happen no matter who is elected.
If no candidate truly honors God, then why vote for any of them?
May I please direct your attention to the VCY Ralley tonight at 7:00pm? You can access it through CrossTalk Radio, which is the ministry of Igrid Schuelter's family, most notably her father, Vic Eliason. They sponser this rally each month and always have a wonderful guest to speak, such notables as John MacArthur. I am excited to tell you that tonight the guest is Paul Washer. His sermon is entitled, "Living Pure in an Impure World" and there is no doubt that it will be worth your time. The topic is aimed at the youth, young adults, etc., but no doubt it will be like his "shocking message" in that it will be like the slogan says, "One size fits all". That is just Paul Washer. Nobody never walks away from any of his sermons/teachings the same as before. Please join with me in prayer this afternoon for Paul Washer as he prepares to deliver this sermon tonight. No doubt it will be going out to a large audience, both tonight and later on the internet. I am providing the link below...it should direct you with crosstalk. Please check it to be sure you have gained access to it. It is a live broadcast.
Sorry, I forgot to include the link to crosstalk so you can listen to Paul Washer tonight. As you listen now, it will give you the current programming. Tonight at 7:00, you will hear the VCY Rally with Paul Washer. Here it is:
Living Pure in an Impure World by Paul Washer-Live tonight at 7:00
Scion: Ouch!!!! I realize we have "wandered" from the original thread topic, but the political situation we find ourselves in does warrant some discussion for Christians.
For anyone who has not, read about Obama's "church." It requires allegiance to Africa for one thing.
Check your terms...."Christian" does not mean the same thing to everyone.
Since Roe v. Wade can only be overturned with just the right case going to the Supreme Court, who can say that a SCOTUS justice won't die or retire during the next administration and the new president will appoint a pro-abortion justice - then we are right back where we were during the Clinton years...we don't know what God is going to do, so as I see it, we vote according to the commands in scripture as best as we can, only if we have prayed and have peace about it and commit it to Him.
We actually have no control whatsoever, we just have to be obedient to His Word and allow the Lord to put those in power as He will.
Dr Rogers preached an excellent sermon during the 90's and I bought it when I was at Bellevue, and I have loaned it out to someone so I cannot quote him, but if one were to call LWF, I bet they would have it. That sermon nailed it for me, scripturally that is.
Requires allegiance to Africa!!!!!
That's more weird than what I thought....oh no!
Has this been brought up publicly??
Surely Hillary knows that?
As for Paul Washer...
IF you are content to hear the same ol - same ol being preached from the Baptist pulpits today....
IF you want to keep the same mind set and stay comfortable and feel like a good little Christian ....
DON'T LISTEN to Paul Washer.
He is not in the mold of the SBC preachers that we have become comfortable with.
concernedSBCer said...
Scion: Ouch!!!! I realize we have "wandered" from the original thread topic, but the political situation we find ourselves in does warrant some discussion for Christians.
For anyone who has not, read about Obama's "church." It requires allegiance to Africa for one thing.
Check your terms...."Christian" does not mean the same thing to everyone.
1:01 PM, February 09, 2008
I've been aware of his church for a while. And Concerned, I might also ad that a church does not imply Christian either. I mean, there is the Church of Elvis and the Church of the Jedi for cryin out loud. And a Church of Shatner (as in William Shatner aka Capt. Kirk)
MOM4 said...
Since Roe v. Wade can only be overturned with just the right case going to the Supreme Court, who can say that a SCOTUS justice won't die or retire during the next administration and the new president will appoint a pro-abortion justice - then we are right back where we were during the Clinton years...we don't know what God is going to do, so as I see it, we vote according to the commands in scripture as best as we can, only if we have prayed and have peace about it and commit it to Him.
We actually have no control whatsoever, we just have to be obedient to His Word and allow the Lord to put those in power as He will.
Dr Rogers preached an excellent sermon during the 90's and I bought it when I was at Bellevue, and I have loaned it out to someone so I cannot quote him, but if one were to call LWF, I bet they would have it. That sermon nailed it for me, scripturally that is.
1:24 PM, February 09, 2008
Well, if someone is a true conservative, if they are fiscally conservative, they would be on social issues such as abortion as well. The problem is, with McCain, at times he's even more left than Hillary or Obama combined. If any of the 3 gets elected, you can say goodbye to talk radio. McCain is the one among others who called people like Rush Limbaugh, GLenn Beck, Laura Ingram, and other talk show hosts racists because they opposed amnesty for illegals. Please, look at the big picture. Our country depends on it.
Amen, Lynn!
Don't miss the forest for the trees.
NASS said:
"Don't miss the forest for the trees."
That's it! There it is! Forrest for president. Run Forrest, run!
Therer is another reason I cannot vote for McCain besides him being a dem in repub clothing.
3 years ago, I can remember reading a very small snippet in USA today saying that she had had a stroke and had been rushed to the hospital the day before. The reason this stood out to me is that I was listening to Shaun Hannity talking to McCain on the radio at the very same time! They had talked about 'where' McCain was (DC) and what was going on about a vote. But, not one word of Cindy McCain. This bothered me greatly so I checked the next day and he was still in DC.
Personally, I don't care who you are...if your wife has a stroke...even a small one...you get on a plane and go to her.
This spoke volumes to me about him.
Obama's church and politics today....
Folks, it's an ugly world out there. Obama isn't the first time that reverend and his pro-Africa policy have been in the news. The way I look at it is that IF I were a minority as they are, I would probably be as radical given the history. Doesn't make it right but we all have a human nature.
I have NOT made a final decision that I would vote for Obama IF he were the nominee. But given what we see of his personality, family and character, seems to me God would have an easier task getting his attention. He does seem to have a measure of humility. And even some consistency in his thinking. At what price would he sell out? Who knows. Seems to me that Hillary and McCain have already been on the auction block.
Regardless, we have no easy path to deciding. Yet.
Lin said:
"Personally, I don't care who you are...if your wife has a stroke...even a small one...you get on a plane and go to her.
This spoke volumes to me about him."
oc says:
That's enough for me. Tells a lot about someone's heart, doesn't it?
My mouth is still agape that there has been some reference to actually voting for Obama. Let me go get my heart meds . . . . .
People, please note this, Obama's father and step-father were Muslims. Under Islamic law, if you are the son of a Muslim, you are a Muslim. [LOOK IT UP] Also, if you, as a child of a Muslim, elect to no longer be a Muslim then you are subject to be put to death. Hello - Islamic Sharia Law - LOOK IT UP.
Barack Hussien Obama attends the church where his wife has been a member - the church of Africa.
Please folks, consider the facts about Barack Hussien Obama. The majority of his votes in the Senate have been "present", not yea or nay. There is much hidden as to his agenda. Don't fall prey to the charisma.
Off my soap box for the moment.
Eprov said:
I have NOT made a final decision that I would vote for Obama IF he were the nominee. But given what we see of his personality, family and character, seems to me God would have an easier task getting his attention. He does seem to have a measure of humility. And even some consistency in his thinking. At what price would he sell out? Who knows.
oc says:
God getting his attention?
I'm not even sure which God he is following. Have you checked out his "church" which concernedsbcer has made mention of? There are a lot of questions to be answered. Like maybe he's a little racist?
Uh oh. That wasn't PC, was it?
Too bad.
Does anyone have any particular concerns for the relationship between the US and Israel after this election?
Lily,
Thanks for the info....hadn't thought it thru with the facts and from a Biblical perspective
You can hear Paul Washer live online:
http://www.vcyamerica.org/
then clik on Listen Live
Ooooh! He's good!
Lizzie...ooooh, don't you know it!
I can't wait to get the CD and listen again and again and again.
Here is where you can get them according to Ingrid Schuelter from slice of laodicea...
"CD’s of his message will be available through VCY America beginning next week by calling 800-729-9829. The cost if $5. You can also order by writing to VCY America Radio, 3434 West Kilbourn Avenue, Milwaukee, WI 53208."
Or it you want to wait and chance it, it may eventually show up on sermonaudio.com. Maybe and maybe not? I'm going to order one for sure.
Does anyone have any particular concerns for the relationship between the US and Israel after this election?
7:41 PM, February 09, 2008
Considering the field of candidates so far, Israel does not have a chance between its own internal liberals and ours.
I am going to beg here. If one is thinking of voting for Obama...just don't vote at all. I am going to duck...but I would rather have Hillary if you put a gun to my head and made me choose.
I have my doubts that Obama has ANY loyalty to America at all. At teh very least, Hillary does so she can have power. Obama is virtually an unknown entity and therefore NOT predictable which is even more dangerous. I think he wants it that way a voting record can get in the way of victory.
There are too many questions that point to the fact that Obama may consider himself more of a citizen of the globe than he does as a loyal citizen of America if you get my drift. He is not a 'Christian' so don't be fooled. His church 'worships' Africa.
Really friends, we just cannot believe anything said during an election. There are some myths going around about Obama but ome things are very true. Both his natural and step fathers were Muslims. He did attend a Muslim school in Indonesia and he also attended a Catholic school. Don't be fooled...Islam is serious in Indonesia. There are places there even our missionaries will not go.
By his own words in his book, growing up, his mom took him to everything from a Buddhist temple to a Mosque to 'worship'. She was not into organized religion and seemed to drift from thing to thing.
He was a 'community activist' in Chicago, a paid position, and worked with many inner city black pastors which is how he came to join the church he is in now.
Here is something from the website of his church:
The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:
A congregation committed to ADORATION.
A congregation preaching SALVATION.
A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.
here is the website:
http://www.tucc.org/
As I said, I do not think Obama can be loyal to America. I don't think he was raised to be nor is he showing he is now.
He scares me more than Hillary. And that is saying ALOT.
He sounds nice and is personable. But, he is a hollow man with little practical experience and very questionable credentials.
"CD’s of his message will be available through VCY America beginning next week by calling 800-729-9829. The cost if $5. You can also order by writing to VCY America Radio, 3434 West Kilbourn Avenue, Milwaukee, WI 53208."
This makes no sense. Washer said his sermons would never be sold.
lin...
His CDs aren't sold.
If you caught the beginning of this tonight, you heard that his CDs at the back of the building were free for the taking...asking one to a family. I went to Muscle Shoals to buy one of his DVDs early on before I started attending there and it was handed to me free of charge.
There has been no change. If HeartCry mails it to you, they do ask you to pay for the shipping.
I would have to assume these CDs are the property of VCY...one could ask if they wish. Or perhaps it is to handle shipping and handling for VCY...I really don't know. I don't have to ask...I know Paul Washer.
Oh...one other thing. The excerpt I copied about the CDs was taken from slice of laodicea. So this comes from VCY or crosstalk. Definitely not HeartCry. You can go to http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com
and see it there.
Nobody needs to be mislead about Paul Washer.
"Nobody needs to be mislead about Paul Washer."
Maybe the 5 bucks handles shipping and the CD is free! I was more concerned that VCY did not know his policy or something.
It is one of the things I just love about him...that he will not sell his sermons. I think all this sermon selling (tape ministries) is like the money changers in the temple. Can you imagine Paul setting up tables and selling his sermons on papyrus?
OC,
Yes, we should pray for the peace of Jerusalem. But that won't happen until Christ returns to it. Israel hasn't really given up on God, I think it more accurate to say that God has given up on Israel.
And we should pray for Israel. But it is important , I think, to know that we are part of Israel. I think that is the context. Romans 2:29, Romans 9:6, Romans 9:25, Romans 10:12, 1 Peter 2:10
We need to remember that today, the nation of Israel is a melting pot. Full of “half breeds”, gentiles (Arabs), philistines and everything else. (2 Kings 17:25-26) To say that the nation is favored is a grand error. (Yes, Hagee is wrong) Even if we could establish a 100% “Sons of Abraham” lineage, we won’t find all of them in that nation today. Even if we could, they have been broken off. (Romans 11, Hosea 4 and Ez 7 among others). The final straw is that most still reject Christ. They are still waiting on Him. His first coming, as one recently told me.
We are in the time of the gentiles now. So if we agree that Israel is broken off (They will be grafted back in Romans 11) then we have to look at them a lot different than we have. The US has long supported Israel and it goes all the way back to “one nation under God” and before. Having said that, at some point, Israel is going to become a stone that the US can’t carry. That may sound far fetched but just look at our position in Iraq right now. Do you see a groundswell of support for a war with Iran, made necessary by our support of Israel? How popular will that war be?
Zech 12:3 On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples. All who lift it will surely hurt themselves. And all the nations of the earth will gather against it.
So I think it pretty interesting that when we look at the candidates, either republican or democrat, we see for the first time a set of folks that I don’t think are all that concerned about Israel. Will the commander in chief (whoever gets it) be interested in an all out war in support of Israel?
Hillary and McCain are the most likely to defend Israel. Do you think Obama will have any interest at all in entering an unpopular war in defense of a people that his ancestors (his father) hated?
What happens if Obama is elected and decides to drop that stone? Is scripture fulfilled? If it is, does Zech 12:10, Ez 39:29 and Joel 2:28 follow?
Israel (whomever that is) is going to be grafted back in by an outpouring of His spirit just like the church was grafted in Acts 10:45. An outpouring of His spirit. They can’t be part of Israel if they don’t believe in Christ. “On that day”, they will. Till then they are blind and deaf.
Isaiah 29:18
In that day the deaf shall hear
the words of a book,
and out of their gloom and darkness
the eyes of the blind shall see.
We've lost the importance of character and morailty in politicians. It seems to have even fallen off the list. That is a European influence I think.
Maybe politics and character are diametrically opposed?
My primary thot in posting was perhaps this should be moved back to the top of the list.
We have been conditioned over the last 20 years to use abortion, state's rights, less government, low taxes, separation of church and state issues, etc., as the litmus tests for politicians, or at least at the top of the list.
I have almost burned out with the previous. Change is the word of the season, but perhaps we should 'change' the way we think about politicians since, odds are, they have sold their soul already.
lin...
I could understand a small charge to cover the cost of the materials involved...the blank CDs, the cases, and even the equipment purchased to make the CDs. Not to mention the shipping costs. But, shipping is all they ask for.
I remain in awe of the Christian people...staff and all at First Baptist.
Bro. Paul's message last night...words aren't enough. Everyone should hear it.
Eprov said:
"Change is the word of the season, but perhaps we should 'change' the way we think about politicians since, odds are, they have sold their soul already."
Yeah. And sold cheap. Those who sell cheap don't give a rat's ...uh...tail... about your soul either. But surprise. This is nothing new.
Never thought I would say this. I'm considering...Canada.
If Hillary or Obama become prez, we will be a clone. Might as well move now to quasi-socialism-communism land in order to get a head start.
All hail queen Hillary.
(in the tune of the Canadian national anthem.)
O' Canada, our home and native land,
True patriot love, in all thy son's command,
With glowing hearts, we see thee rise, the true North proud and free...
Now from the States, we're breaking down. We're trying to give you Hillary...
Please... take our curse...
and make her Queen...
Oh Canada, you've done... nothing for me...
So please Canada,
Take Hill...a....ry!!!!
Please Canada,...take Hill..a...ry!
OC..Canada is a good possibility (for relocating if the demos win) but I don't think I could handle the winter cold.
How about a nice tropical paradise where the grass and trees stay green all year. Also must have some wonderful trade winds.
oc said...
Eprov said:
"Change is the word of the season, but perhaps we should 'change' the way we think about politicians since, odds are, they have sold their soul already."
Yeah. And sold cheap. Those who sell cheap don't give a rat's ...uh...tail... about your soul either. But surprise. This is nothing new.
Never thought I would say this. I'm considering...Canada.
If Hillary or Obama become prez, we will be a clone. Might as well move now to quasi-socialism-communism land in order to get a head start.
All hail queen Hillary.
9:16 AM, February 10, 2008
What do you mean Quasi-Socialism-Communism land? She's taking pages right out of Karl Marx's playbook by wanting to garnish our paychecks if we don't choose her medical plan.
And Eprov, I agree with you. One's character should be up there at the top along with the issues. Last thing we need is another Nixon.
Hey Folks..Please don't any of you even consider voting for either Hillary or Obama. She is a known quantity (not very good) and Obama is an unknown quantity. His connections to Muslims and his African church, is enough to make me run for the hills.
McCain may have his short comings but if either of the two mentioned above get to the White House, it will be time to start looking for a new home.
I contemplating my new home to be in Panama or Costa Rica.
I think we should be so very careful in what we say about the candidates (or anyone else for that matter)...I stated earlier that Obama is a Muslim. I have read that his father was Muslim, but not practicing in that faith. And farther that Obama has been a professing Christian since the mid 80's...several years before he entered the political arena. I don't support Obama and have no intentions of doing so, but I don't want to be guilty of spreading rumors about him. Or anybody else. This is a tough race, this presidential nomination...and I truly feel we have nothing to really bank on this go around. This is sad but it is the case as I see it. But again, I apologize for carrying forward a rumor.
Canada has universal healthcare, so you may as well stay here if Hillary or Obama wins - that's their plan for us!
IMA, there is no need for an apology regarding comments about Obama. You say he has professed to be a Christan - maybe, maybe not. That is one of the critical issues. {Remember Bill Clinton's famous "I have not ....."}
Obama's father and step-father were Muslims. Under Islamic law, if you are the son of a Muslim (whether practicing or not), you are a Muslim. Also, if you, as a son of a Muslim, elect to no longer be a Muslim then you are subject to be put to death in accordance with Islamic Sharia Law.
Please be ever aware of how Sharia Law is trying to sneak in everywhere. Obama may just be that trojan horse. If he is not, he is still not a promoter of our American Christian based foundation.
As Christians.....We need to be scared...very scared of what young evangelicals are supporting. On a ABC News report, one of the biggest issues that concerns the young Christians want to see the government address is Poverty. While addressing poverty is important, when they want Government to address it....thats socialism. Oh yeah, many of them are supporting Obama.
I'll search for the video and will provide the link when I do. It was just something I came across on tv.
In Regards to Obama....
As much as I loath Hillary...at least she's come out saying what her views are, even if she has flip flopped a few times. Obama hasn't even done that. All he's saying is he is for change. Essentially, he's a political version of Joel Osteen.
lynn said, "On a ABC News report, one of the biggest issues that concerns the young Christians want to see the government address is Poverty. While addressing poverty is important, when they want Government to address it....thats socialism."
Comment: Interesting you say this Lynn. Made me think of an article I have just recently read that you might find interesting regarding your remarks on the subject.
ONE
Here is the link to the story I mentioned earlier on ABC news. And yes my friends, Warren is mentioned in it.
Young Evangelicals becoming Socialists?
When asked if they were bothered that Obama is pro-choice, one young evangelical responded: "Maybe a little bit, but it's all personal preference. I mean, you can't really pass judgment on someone because that's their belief."
The heck you can't.
What is up with the "judge not lest ye be judged" mindset??? Of course you can judge! Does *whatever* line up with scripture or doesn't it?
That's all the ruler you need!
Hey everyone, Paul Washer's sermon at the VCY rally is on sermon audio for free. It is a very deep sermon and worth listening to.
Let's be careful about the 'judging' deal.
Lord knows you might take that too far and have some judgmental response to a reverend and, of course, THAT is wrong! LOL
I mean they are self anointed, er, I mean self appointed.
Paul Washer
Excellent message :
" Reality Check "
REALITY CHECK
These sermons are breathtaking to say the least.
By the way, let me just add that the True Church Conference is the last of this month if anyone might be interested. I went last year and plan to return this year. This year's subject is Church Discipline. David Miller, Paul Washer, Jay Adams (by satelite due to ill health), and Jeff Noblit are the speakers. You can go to anchored in truth.com or First Baptist Church of Muscle Shoals...I think it is fbcms.org to get more information. As most of you know the location is Muscle Shoals, Alabama.
Here is another article that is close to brilliant by a young man named Daniel Chew. Many of us can really relate to what he says. I know that I can. Here is the link:
Purpose Driven Testimony of Daniel HC Chew
Oops...I am getting really good at providing the wrong link! Sorry. Of course, the one I just gave you in my previous post is good too!
Anyway, here is the one to Daniel Chew's purpose driven testimony. It is so good.
Daniel Chew's "My Purpose Driven Testimony"
Well, many of us can relate to Mr. Chew's testimony. Did anyone see a glaring error in Mr. Chew's thinking?
Here it is...in the first paragraph:
"I have since left my former church and therefore am now not under their leadership, and am thus free to call them publicly to account for their blatant compromise and even (dare I say it?) apostasy."
Anyone want to tell me why he was NOT free to call them out publicly on apostasy while he was there?
Some, in the reformed movement are more afraid of men than they are Christ. This view of earthly 'authority' in the church is what allows the evil to grow.
lin...
Very good. No, I didn't catch it...and I certainly should have. He should certainly have called them publicly to account for their blatant compromise and apostasy while he was still at the church, not waited until after he left. I will have to go back and read it again. Christians (or not?) hold themselves accountable to man instead of God...obedient to man instead of God. This is where the problem is...as evidenced at Bellevue and other places. They don't see it. It is a country club atmosphere. Social calling.
I am intrigued by what Paul Washer said about the mountains of Peru...how people come from miles around to hear this preaching. By our standards we would see these people as extremely poor. He says this summer he will be preaching in these desolate locations to as many as 2,000 people at once without microphones. These people are not poor...they are wealthy. They see Jesus in a different light from their wealthy neighbor to the north...us. There is no entertainment, jokes, puppet shows...just raw Bible teaching; the teachings of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. We should fall on our knees.
Thanks for pointing this out Lin...it is certainly relevant.
Wonder if Heart Cry could use some help in Peru? I speak Spanish but would need to get up to speed in fluency as I have not been using the language.
I'm probably too old with too many entanglements. :( Rats.
Maybe, I could just go down to see what's happening. Sounds so wonderful, doesn't it?
Francesca...yes it does sound wonderful. One never knows...why don't you email and find out. Do you have any experience in the medical field? Even administrative in medical? We know the Spanish would work.
Goodness....I know the rapture didn't happen and I got left behind.....
heeellloooo?????
How is everyone doing? Busy?
Oh....by the way....Go Tigers!!!
I'm here.
It has been quiet today.
Go Tigers as well.
We're #1...Take That Rocky Top!!!! :)
speaking of the Tigers...
when I was invited to watch the superbowl with a male friend...I asked him if that would be basketball or football....
just wanted to make you smile on a cold wet boring night :)
Good point. Several? There aren't even "several" still in the race. I can think of several better choices, too, but none of them are actually running, so....
Surely no one is considering wasting his vote on a write-in candidate. "Protest" votes may make you feel better, but in a national election they only serve to give one of the main candidates another vote -- and it's usually the candidate you like the least. So think about that before writing in a candidate's name. You might as well stay home and save yourself the time and effort and help keep the lines at the polls shorter for everyone else.
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When I made that comment, there were several others still in the race. The times, they have changed in the last week.
In thinking about the race, I am not AT ALL a McCain supporter. However, I heard someone say something that made sense.....
"I'd rather argue with McCain 20% of the time than with Obama/Hillary 90% of the time."
I'm also thinking McCain might be striving to go more towards the right. He might get a "true conservative" as a running mate as well.
Bottom line, OC and NASS, you are right. NOW we have very few options.
However, I do believe if you "stay home" on election night you might as well pull the lever for Obama/Hillary.
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