Well, well. It seems the "church growth movement" hasn't been such a rousing success after all.The ugly truth.
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- New BBC Open Forum
- This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church and the SBC can come to comment and exchange ideas. Anonymous comments are welcome, but it is respectfully requested that instead of choosing the "Anonymous" option those who want to post comments without logging in select a unique screen name. This lets everyone tell the difference between one anon and another without revealing any personal information. Under the box where you compose your comment where it says "Choose an identity," just check "Name/URL" and type in the screen name of your choice. You can leave the URL field blank. It would be helpful if you'd use the same screen name for any subsequent comments. This makes reading and following discussions easier, helps avoid confusion, and doesn't result in one person being credited for writing something s/he didn't. Comments by posters whose only purpose is to disrupt (i.e. trolls) will be subject to deletion. Your cooperation will be appreciated.
145 comments:
Yep. A generation of church brats. Raised on easy believing, no repentence, feel good churchism.
Spoiled brats with no gratefulness.
Warren is the new Dr. Spock. Promoting another big mistake. But with even a bigger consequence. One that may have caused many souls to spend eternity in Hell.
Ummmmm .... oopsie!
The link to the UGLY TRUTH does not work, ..at least in the 5 times I tried it.
watchman,
It works for me.
Click here.
Or go to http://www.bpnews.net and search for "Willow Creek." It's an article from November 6th entitled "FIRST-PERSON: A shocking confession from Willow Creek Community Church leaders."
Lighthouse Trails Research has commented on the whole Hybels Circus oopsie statement here.
Worth a look.
HYBELS OOPSIE LEADING NOW TO WHAT GREATER APOSTASY?
So Bellevue is trying it's own good feeling with
Bellevue L_O_V_E_S Memphis!!
What does that mean??
Does Bro Steve and the Bellevue Staff love it so much that they live in Memphis and pay City taxes or put up with the crime, drugs, and weak family formations?
No, most of the staff live in Lakeland, Arlington, Shelby co & Fayette co, anywhere but the City of Memphis.
RUSSELL QUINN ARLINGTON TN 01/12/2007 235800.00
FIRST CHOICE MORTGAGE SERVICES 01/12/2007 188600.00
but didn't officially come on staff until June 1st 2007, hmmm, sounds like Jamie Parker ?
Who else is waiting in the shadows, and who is next to leave?
ERNEST PARVIN ARLINGTON TN 08/15/2007 231000.00
FARMERS AND MERCHANTS BANK 08/15/2007 232137.87
MARK BLAIR LAKELAND TN 09/19/2007 329850.00
COUNTRYWIDE BANK FSB 09/19/2007 229850.00
Do they send their children to Memphis City schools?
No, they send them to ECS with the help of the Bellevue Foundation .
2005 ECS $523,425
2006 ECS $237,831
So here's Bro Steve's prayer that everyone has to recite in the service:
Here
So what is it about Memphis that Bro Steve L_O_V_E_S so much?
It just sounds like good PR to raise $$$$
Notice the scripture that is referenced in the Love Offering brochure, Jeremiah 29:7
"Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have CARRIED you into EXILE. Pray to the LORD for it, because if it prospers, you TOO will prosper"
What is this supposed to mean???
Why don't they do one of their surveys on the 'remnant'??? The resistors??? The wolves who have 'been shot'??? I'd love to read the results of that survey...
Watchman...why don't you do a survey like this?
Comments about SG's prayer:
It's fine. It really is. He left out some stuff I would have added like "Bless the judges and help them to stand firm on this country's law to punish those who do not value our laws and our people." And also "Help us keep the jobs here for our citizens and protect our borders, God, so that those that aren't supposed to be here will not be."
I did have a question about this part: "Take away formalism, fanaticism, liberalism, legalism, and traditionalism from every congregation." Isn't the autumn Love Offering a tradition? Maybe that should cease and something new be developed. We need to be careful about traditions, you know. See, it is a two-edged sword!
One last comment: "Please help me to value and respect every person
as You value them, because You created each of them in Your image and each of them is an eternal soul for whom Christ died to save."
Unless, of course, those people disagree with me. And blog about it.
gopher,
Will you e-mail me, please? I have a couple of questions!
This is nothing new to Bellevue, as it was "tradition" long before SG came on the scene, but why does the "Love Offering" always have to be such a show? Is it not ridiculous to ask people to file by and drop empty envelopes in a box?
From this Sunday's BellevueToday:
Love Offering
Help Bellevue love Memphis through the 2007 Love Offering this morning. This year’s gifts will help fund ministry projects around our city. Please prayerfully consider what God would have you give. If you do not have an envelope, the ushers will give you one during the service. Our guests are not expected to give anything, but please put an empty envelope in the boxes when your section goes forward. Be a part of sharing Christ's love with our city.
I assume then that "our members are expected to give." Wonder if they'll be checking up on that? What if God tells you not to give anything?
Could someone explain to me how dropping an empty envelope in a box is being "a part of sharing Christ's love with our city"?
Lynn, do you have any of that duct tape left? I need some.
Gopher makes some EXCELLENT points about the hypocracy of this entire
"Bellevue LOVES Memphis" scheme.
The "leadership" at BBC all live anywhere BUT Memphis and they all send their kids to school anywhere BUT the Memphis City Schools.
I'd think a Loooooooooong time before I dropped any of my hard earned $$$$ into that box. We are to be good stewards of our money.
It's all just a little too vague and hypocritical to pass the smell test.
Empty envelopes? Huh?
That's a great example of using resources wisely.
It seems it's all for show......"See, everone's walking by and *sigh* aren't they so generous!"
NASS said:
Could someone explain to me how dropping an empty envelope in a box is being "a part of sharing Christ's love with our city"?
I think it's not only the envelope that is empty.
Good point. Somehow I don't think that's what Joash had in mind.
Prayers that admit that we have been sold into captivity? Grand offering productions, tradition, manipulation from the leadership?
1:5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
1:6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head [there is] no soundness in it; [but] wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
The Church Body......and the leadership.
1:7 Your country [is] desolate, your cities [are] burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and [it is] desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
1:8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.
1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, [and] we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
1:11 To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
1:12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; [it is] iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them].
1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Note to the person who wrote me this morning:
1. No one has to ask "permission" to post comments.
2. No one has referred to you as "the lost ones" here. You must have this blog confused with some other one.
Oh come on Ezekial.
Since when did the context matter?
It's a matter of.....church lady....Convenience!
" oc said...
....... One that may have caused many souls to spend eternity in Hell."
You might want to be concerned with your own soul. Some around the center of this situation are comparing Bellevue to the wedding Jesus talked about in Matthew 22:1–14
"...Come to the wedding banquet.' But they paid no attention and went off...." referring those who left Bellevue.
"....The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find....."
Therefore all this "Bellevue L_O_V_E_S Memphis" activity.
Free Concerts
December 2 2007
Here
December 27,28,29,30,31 2007
Here
February, 15 2008
Here
John Macarthur transcript of sermon regarding America...
A Nation Abandoned by GOD.
AMERICA, A NATION ABANDONED BY GOD
Gopher, you have no email address in your profile. I do though, email me and we will talk about my soul. :)
oc.
From Steve Gaines prayer for Memphis ...
Father, bless Memphis, Tennessee and its citizens indeed, enlarge our borders, let Your hand of blessing be upon
us, and keep us from harm.
Sound familiar? I'm sure some here will recognize the reference and its significance.
So does anyone know why the Chris Orr Band is doing 5 concerts at BBC? I've never heard of them - seems like a lot of concerts for a group that isn't well known.
Just askin'
Prayer of Jabez.
Junkster said...
From Steve Gaines prayer for Memphis ...
Father, bless Memphis, Tennessee and its citizens indeed, enlarge our borders, let Your hand of blessing be upon
us, and keep us from harm.
Sound familiar? I'm sure some here will recognize the reference and its significance.
8:18 PM, November 09, 2007
New BBC Open Forum said...
Prayer of Jabez.
8:32 PM, November 09, 2007
Ding ding ding! Give the man from Minnesota some lutfisk!
But what can we glean from this reference?
(And, no, I don't think "enlarge our borders" is meant as support of King Willie's attempts to incorporate the whole county into the city limits!)
"Our guests are not expected to give anything, but please put an empty envelope in the boxes when your section goes forward."
Is this to make the guests "feel" like a part of the "show"? Is this to make it "look like everyone" in the audience is happily participating?
Notice the words in parens - feel, show, look like.
The only mention of God is "what He would have you give". Then the hook is "be a part of sharing Christ's love with the city". Please explain how the proposal of going into the schools and nursing homes, etc., and doing repairs, etc., and all those other "feel good about yourself" things that have been presented as "the plan" fit into the sharing of Christ's love (SALVATION) as described in the Word.
Colossians 3:17
And whatsoever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Junk said:
Sound familiar? I'm sure some here will recognize the reference and its significance.
Yeah, let's not be original. Formulas are good for formalism. Wait a minute, wasn't that what part of what Stevie's prayer was about? Hmmmmmm....
Just sayin'.
oc.
Junk said:
Ding ding ding! Give the man from Minnesota some lutfisk!
My brother Junk. I can tell that you are not from the great white north. It is 'lutefisk'. The great Norwegian jellied fish treat. My friends in North Dakota ate it gladly, but I refused.
I believe our friend NASS, although of the rugged tundra of the treacherous north, would gag on the slimy morsels. Some things are meant to eat only in desperation. Lutefisk is one of them.
Just sayin'.
oc.
The Messengers sent from The Lord to warn the wayward and rebelling Church have been mocked, villified, kicked out, laughed at, and treated with utter contempt.
UNITY UNITY UNITY IS THE CRY FROM THE CLEARLY FALLEN CHURCHES...
Now hear the the WORD of THE LORD WHO CALLS THESE END TIME UNITY CONSCIOUS APOSTATE REBELS AND THEIR DEEDS BY THEIR PROPER NAMES.
THE UNITY OF THE APOSTATES...
THE UNITY OF THE APOSTATES...RUSHING HEADLONG INTO GODS' JUDGEMENT
Lutfisk
Lutefisk
This is nothing new to Bellevue, as it was "tradition" long before SG came on the scene, but why does the "Love Offering" always have to be such a show? Is it not ridiculous to ask people to file by and drop empty envelopes in a box? ... Could someone explain to me how dropping an empty envelope in a box is being "a part of sharing Christ's love with our city"?
The "production" aspect of the Love Offering is what always bothered me about it. I thought it should have been collected like any other offering. It's always been a big deal at BBC and, so I suppose there was a desire to make it feel that way. And it clearly distinguished the Love Offering from the regular tithe for the denser sheep.
I believe the idea of everyone filing by a depository was inspired by the chest of Joash. However, this created a problem. Having people get up and leave their seat would be a logistical nightmare unless everyone did it, and that would put on display those who were giving and, unfortunately, those who weren't. To preserve privacy, everyone was asked to deposit an envelope whether there was anything in it or not. This is not new; it's been done that way for as long as I can remember.
In any event, it should be an interesting Love Offering this year. Why doesn't everyone just cut out the middle man and send it to directly to Memphis City Schools? With so many at Bellevue now tithing under compulsion, it might as well be a tax.
For you math majors out there, 15 is one tenth of one percent of 15,000. Not that numbers matter.
Bellevue's Wednesday's
"Call to Prayer" 11/7/2007
#1 "All-Out Praise to our great and awesome God for His powerful covering and outpouring of bountiful blessing in reaching out to Memphis through the Family Fun Festival. Praise Him for the 15,000+ people who attended, the majority of whom were guests to Bellevue. Praise Him for the apparent joy in the children as they anticipated the exhilaration of every activity and ride. Praise for the profuse appreciation expressed by parents who were deeply impressed by the motivation of love in providing such entertainment for families FREE of charge."
#2 "Praise Him mightily for the 15-20 people who were brought to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ by members of the EE Teams!! Thank Him for those who showed a hunger after righteousness as they picked up prayer guides for families and schools, and took advantage of additional reading materials and Bibles made available by the EE Ministry.
#3 "Praise the Lord Most High for putting such a venture in the hearts of our Pastor and leaders, All of whom poured themselves into making it the very best for the sake of the One who LOVES Memphis with His whole heart and longs to reflect that love through His children who are willing to be used as His vessels WITHOUT restriction!
#4 "Praise Him for those who will come to worship in the coming weeks and months as a result of the Impact upon them and their families. Praise the Lord for those who will be saved and others who will accept the challenge to a deeper walk with the Lord Jesus with Joy.
#5 "Praise God for the greater expressions of the love of Jesus toward Memphis trough opportunities made possible through the 2007 Love Offering. Praise Him in advance for the RADICAL changes that will take place in the lives of people as they meet head-on the revelation of a loving Savior manifested through dedicated people empowered by the love of Christ"
junk wrote:
"But what can we glean from this reference?"
Gimme, gimme, gimme? Greediness is next to Godliness?
"And, no, I don't think 'enlarge our borders' is meant as support of King Willie's attempts to incorporate the whole county into the city limits!"
Really? Don't be too sure SG doesn't have political aspirations himself.
New BBC Open Forum said...
Interesting review.
1:14 AM, November 10, 2007
More lutefisk for Mr. Minnesota!
I'd consider it a safe guess that SG thinks its a good book, having chosen that pattern for part of his prayer.
Junk said:
More lutefisk for Mr. Minnesota!
Well, you haven't lived, or you haven't died, until you have tried a peanut butter and Lutefisk sandwich.
On further consideration, since I have been through a lutefisk episode, maybe starving to death is not all that bad. But instead I think I'll head for the border. The southern border. No lutefisk burritos there.
Just sayin'.
oc.
GOPHER, #1, in the "call to prayer," it is said that the carnival was FREE...the fall festival @ Bellevue has always been "FREE." The members and BFC's have always donated tons of candy, lots of games, and A LOT OF TIME. It was always good enough, big enough and exciting enough for ALL the kids in the area.
The church never BRAGGED about it before, but then, A lot more activities were cheap or FREE at that time.
More relativity.
And, no, I don't think 'enlarge our borders' is meant as support of King Willie's attempts to incorporate the whole county into the city limits!"
Really? Don't be too sure SG doesn't have political aspirations himself.
1:12 AM, November 10, 2007
****
OH BROTHER!!! as if Memphis didn't have ENOUGH problems!!!
A scarey thought, indeed!
Have we learned NOTHING from the liberals? Throwing money at the public schools has done NOTHING to improve their lot.
I have homeschooled my children on a fraction of the cost per child compared to the public schools and it would be impossible to compare the results. There IS no comparison!!!
The problem is NOT a lack of funds. It is a lack of parental involvement, a lack of discipline, and the breakdown of the family.
Steve Gaines has not come up with a new, shiny idea. It's the same old worn out idea, and it has failed every time. NO matter how much he beats the sheep over the head for more money to throw at this problem, it's not going to fix it.
I would have to agree that evangelizing these folks would be a good first step. And if SG had not blown so many opportunities prior to now, I might think that his intentions are worthy. However, based on past experience with this narcisstic man, there must be soemthing in it for him.
Perhaps SG should put his money where his mouth is and move into the city and put his kids in the city schools.
SOTL said: "The problem is NOT a lack of funds. It is a lack of parental involvement, a lack of discipline, and the breakdown of the family."
Amen, Amen, and AMEN! You are exactly right....we should be witnessing and ministering to folks with needs. But the problem in many of the areas that have been focused on is that the problems are NOT a lack of money. You nailed it perfectly.
Throwing money at the issue will just increase the problems ultimately.
How about starting day care center where you minister to the whole family and share the gospel daily? How about clothes closets within the schools? How about providing wholesome youth activities for the middle school/high school age range? How about supporting the anti-gang task force?
Things that don't have much pizzaz but meet daily needs and don't duplicate programs already in place.
Sickofthelies said...
"Have we learned NOTHING from the liberals? Throwing money at the public schools has done NOTHING to improve their lot."
Lynn's Response:
First off: Liberalism always generates the exact opposite of its stated intent.
And Secondly: Liberals don't see the public education as a failure needing to be overhauled. They believe they haven't done enough it.
NASS, thank you for this thread. I have the duct tape sitting right here beside my keyboard.
Watchman, thank you for the links. The one called "Hybels Oopsie..." is going out to my friends who don't read this blog.
Last night, while catching up on the reading, we did a Google search for 'eucharistic evangelism'. That is a new term in my vocabulary. Here is something that came up near the top of the search results:
http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c53.shtml
“U2-charist”
It may not qualify as a mini-Reformation, but a Communion service driven by the music of singer Bono and his U2 bandmates is catching on at Episcopal churches across the country. The U2 Eucharist is not some kind of youth service held in the church basement but is a traditional Episcopal liturgy that uses U2's best-selling songs as hymns.
"It makes you, like, warm inside," says Bridgette Roberts, 15, who is a Roman Catholic and attended a recent U2 Eucharist at All Saints' Episcopal Church in Briarcliff Manor, N.Y. "Usually at church, you love Jesus and everything. But this way you can express how you feel." Says her friend, Natalie Williams, 17: "I love Bono, and you can rock out to the music. But in church, you hear it in a different way. It's like new."
U think this isn't relevant?
oc,
Lutefisk (Lutfisk to the Svenskas) is an acquired taste best left unacquired. It is pickled in lye nearly to the point of becoming soap and lightly flavored with boat engine exhaust. The result is a gelatinous mess in danger of falling apart, that some curiously report as hard to cut. As to its edibility, I trust the synopsis offered by Garrison Keillor:
"Every Advent we entered the purgatory of lutefisk, a repulsive gelatinous fishlike dish that tasted of soap and gave off an odor that would gag a goat. We did this in honor of Norwegian ancestors, much as if survivors of a famine might celebrate their deliverance by feasting on elm bark. I always felt the cold creeps as Advent approached, knowing that this dread delicacy would be put before me and I’d be told, "Just have a little." Eating a little was like vomiting a little, just as bad as a lot."
But lutefisk is fairly tame when it comes to dubious gastronomy. Our friend Phil Johnson over at Pyromaniacs has recorded many of his exploits, most interestingly the durian. Perhaps you could send NASS a nice Asian fruit basket for Christmas.
"'It makes you, like, warm inside,' says Bridgette Roberts, 15, who is a Roman Catholic and attended a recent U2 Eucharist at All Saints' Episcopal Church in Briarcliff Manor, N.Y. 'Usually at church, you love Jesus and everything. But this way you can express how you feel.'"
Well, of course, we must be able to express how we feel. Folks, we're in, like, big trouble!
I've never been big on Bono. While I appreciate his efforts to help solve some of the problems in Africa....I still think he and Edge are a bit full of it.
If all of Memphis loves Steve and BBC then there MUST be something wrong with you all.
Get it? This is about rehabilitating Gaines' reputation from a pro pedophile minister supporter to a great guy who really does love and want to help people. I say, clever indeed. Especailly when you can do it with OPM.
With OPM? Oh... other people's money! I was thinking along the lines of "with ASF."
Lynn,
I'm old. What's "Edge"?
About "The Prayer":
-Prayer is personal communion between the believer and their
Heavenly Father - prompted by the Holy Spirit of God. How can reciting a "prayer" written by another be true prayer?
-What about those who are not believers who had to recite the prayer in order to cooperate with the service? Or those who did not agree with some aspects of the prayer?
-Why would one ask the Lord to "take away traditionalism" as a blanket statement as though tradition in itself is bad?
-How can God "Bless our civic leaders. Bless the Mayor of Memphis, etc. Bless our educational systems. -
when corruption abounds; when good is called evil and evil good? How can God bless that which is an abomination to Him?
I recommend listening to this:
Bible Driven Church by Jeff Noblit at the VCY Rally
NASS quoted:
"'It makes you, like, warm inside,' says Bridgette Roberts, 15.'Usually at church, you love Jesus and everything. But this way you can express how you feel.'"
Sounds a lot like Uncle Wally's White Lightnin'. The jug said XXX. Made ya, 'like, all warm inside...'
and giggly too, like a 15 year old. And it also made you forget about Jesus, and helped you to express how you feel. Very interesting, isn't it? Hmmmm.
Bono? Come on! This is more of the world. The church is becoming worldly and the world is becoming churchy. Soon...one will not be able to tell one from the other. All the denominations are becoming one, as in unity...heading in the direction of the Roman Catholics. Anything goes...pragmatism. The anti-christ. Mysticism. What else can I say?
Edge is just Bono's band.
... or maybe the young lady, like, imbibed a little too much of the, like, you know, sacramental wine.
Okay, then what's U2? I do not keep up with this stuff!
I just heard a rumor about our own resident blonde, Lindon ...
Seems she was weed-eating her yard and accidentally cut off the tail of her cat, which was hiding in the grass.
She rushed her cat, along with the tail over to Wal-Mart.
Why Wal-Mart???
She had heard that Wal-Mart is the largest retailer in the world!
Maybe Stevie should do like that mayor in Chicago did one time..she moved into a housing project for a specified period of time. ( I can't remember for how long)
Just imagine, giving up his mansion and worldly comforts to live among those he wants to help.
I might even pay attention to him if he did that.
He should go down there and take his family, and his children should go to the school assigned to that district.
Maybe THEN he could learn what the needs really are, instead of living out in Eads and imagining what the problems are in the inner city of Memphis.
Nope, not gonna happen.
P.S.
I'll help them pack..they won't need much...just a small suitcase each..I believe those units are furnished.
junk,
That was disgusting.
SOTL,
SG doesn't live in Eads -- at least not now. He lives in unincorporated Cordova. According to the SCS website, his 9th grader would attend Germantown High and Houston High for 10th through 12th grades.
Okay people, don't show your age. U2 is a rock band from Dublin. Bono is the lead singer (his real name is Paul Hewson), and Edge is the guitar player (his real name is Dave Evans). I loved them for a long time, particularly Edge. However, when Bono got ultra liberal political, I wrote them off.
I actually was backstage with these guys years ago - I was not a groupie, but married to someone in the music business - I call him Satan.
And another thing, no one complained about posts on "lutefisk, a repulsive gelatinous fishlike dish ". But ya'll gave me down the road for my favorite fish tacos, which I enjoyed today. ;-}
Lily,
I was really trying not to think about any of it! Blech!
Well, since I seem to have the "floor", I will chime in on how I think Steve Gaines can experience the real Memphis and show how much he cares. It is my recommendation that he spend several hours a night several nights a week in the waiting room of the Med. He will have many opportunities to share the love and actually see the real Memphis and the multitude of needs.
Lily: What a fabulous idea! A girl in my SS class is a nurse there....you have no idea the witnessing opportunities there! And, just to include the younger set....LeBonheur ER is an interesting place as well.
BTW Lily.....we must talk soon!
:-)
Lily,
Cracking up at several things you said but couldn't pass by the "satan" ex.
I actually found a picture of my long lost love while on the internet and saved it with the title "the devil".....
Why did Bellevue provide a free Halloween carnival to 8,000 people when it charges people to see the Singing Christmas Tree and Passion Play?
"I just heard a rumor about our own resident blonde, Lindon ..."
It can only be rumor. I depise cats and would never bother to 'retail' one. (sorry cat lovers) and I never weedeat my yard. I might accidently cut off all of those fluffy round white flowers.
(Cats are evil)
Okay, then what's U2? I do not keep up with this stuff!
4:25 PM, November 10, 2007
Nass! Get out of the basement more for crying out loud. U2 has been around for ages. Bono is like, what? 60? Gotta be in his 50's at least.
I am ashamed to say I used to listen to them a lot 10 years ago.
Fog Machine: By Golly.......You nailed it!!! How many people have been saved through the ministries of the SCT and PP???? Those should be free!!! Oh, I know, you can come and wait and get free seats 2 minutes before the production....how hospitable is that? The whole Bellevue Memphis Fair at Halloween just makes no logical sense, in light of everything else BBC does.
"fogmachine said...
Why did Bellevue provide a free Halloween carnival to 8,000 people when it charges people to see the Singing Christmas Tree and Passion Play?
11:57 PM, November 10, 2007
Comment: What a great question. The events that present a gospel message require a ticket. Will BBC run busses to the inner city and bring in the Memphis it LOOOOOVES?
Fogmachine said...
Why did Bellevue provide a free Halloween carnival to 8,000 people when it charges people to see the Singing Christmas Tree and Passion Play?
11:57 PM, November 10, 2007
Churchmouse said:
Comment: What a great question. The events that present a gospel message require a ticket. Will BBC run busses to the inner city and bring in the Memphis it LOOOOOVES?
8:20 AM, November 11, 2007
-----
I think I may have figured this out… Let’s see…
If Bellevue Leadership does NOT present the Gospel, there is no charge.
But…….
If Bellevue Leadership does present the Gospel, there is a charge.
Hmmm…that does not make a lot of sense…because…after all…Bellevue Luvvvvvs Memphis!!!!
churchmouse wrote:
"Oh, I know, you can come and wait and get free seats 2 minutes before the production....how hospitable is that?"
You also nailed it and really hit upon one of NASS's oldest pet peeves. While they offer each member up to 10 free tickets to distribute, unless those members actually distribute those tickets, those who can't afford or haven't bought tickets ahead of time are relegated to the long lines outside. (And last year they were very long. No way would I have stood in one of those lines.) And the free tickets are not the best seats by any means. The best seats are reserved for those who pay and pay early.
Or for "VIPs." Anyone remember during the PP when SG announced how happy he was to have the Rogers family there, never realizing (or apparently caring) that the seats always reserved for them were empty?
Again, this isn't something new to BBC. I've always said that no church should ever charge people to come to their Christmas and Easter programs. If a church can't afford the program without selling tickets, then cut back on the size of the program! It's as if all the mega churches have to one-up each other with their elaborate sets, special lighting, corny "acting," Broadway dancing, flying angels, live animals, tallest SCT, etc. The music usually ends up suffering with most of the emphasis being on "the show."
There's way too much beautiful Christmas music out there without having to resort to Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree. I've heard this year they're going to "jazz up" the Hallelujah Chorus, too. Poor old Handel must be spinning in his grave!
Sorry for the rant, but you really struck a nerve with that, fog.
P.S. 'Mouse, that's "Bellevue LO♥ES Memphis," don't you know? As in "I ♥ NY." You left out the ♥.
NASS said:
You left out the ♥.
So did they.
WE ARE SOOOOO CLOSE.
"Oprah and Friends" to teach year long course on XM Satellite station endorsing NEW AGE CHRIST.
Oprah to push New Age Christ to all listeners in year long course
After reading the link that Watchman posted, I am now truly concerned.
Remember 20 years ago when Frank Pereitt, the 'Stephen King' of Christian fiction, wrote This Present Darkness and Piercing the Darkness? I was a teenager then, and after reading those books developed a leeriness and fear of the New Age movement. And for good reason, too.
But years went by, and the church seemed to stay as strong as ever, and grow even stronger. Christianity was on the rise! So I stopped worrying about the New Age movement. I figured it was limited to Hollywood freaks and their Scientology and Kaballah beliefs.
But if Oprah Winfrey endorses something, then that something skyrockets. It is a sad but true fact.
And the church is doing nothing to prepare itself for this battle, and nothing to defend itself. Instead, many churches today have opened their doors to the enemy, in the name of Seeker Friendliness, and are being devoured by Satan from the inside out, like a cancer.
The New Age movement will spread, and there will be no one to battle against it, because there are fewer and fewer true Christians left. I daresay that the majority of members in todays "Christian" denominations and churches aren't truly saved, and will be the first to fall to this New Age line of thinking.
I wrote:
"While they offer each member up to 10 free tickets to distribute... "
Correction: That's up to 8 free tickets. They cut it from the previous 10 this year.
Lindon said...
(Cats are evil)
Lin,
Ok, now you have gone too far. You can bash Warren and Hybels and Church Growth and Seeker Sensitive and Emergent and patriarchy and Patterson and even the dear ole SBC, but calling cats evil ... well, that's just WRONG!
I will be offended for at least the next 3 and a quarter hours!! And so will my 4 cats, Silver, Star, "W", and Spurgeon. (Ok, I don't really have one named Spurgeon, I just made that last one up because I thought it would be harder for you to criticize.)
Oh my.......that study.....it is 100% blasphemy.
Example: "Lesson #61 tells each person to repeat the affirmation “I am the light of the world.”3 Lesson #70 teaches the student to say and believe “My salvation comes from me.”4"
Direct contradictions from the Bible.
Scion, IMHO, your post at 11:51 today was one of the best of this whole blog. There you have it!
"And the church is doing nothing to prepare itself for this battle, and nothing to defend itself. Instead, many churches today have opened their doors to the enemy, in the name of Seeker Friendliness, and are being devoured by Satan from the inside out, like a cancer."
YES!
"The New Age movement will spread, and there will be no one to battle against it, because there are fewer and fewer true Christians left."
YES!
We must pray, we must stand, we must shout The TRUTH.
Even knowing we are in the quiet minority.
"If God be for me, who can be against me"?
REINVENTING JESUS CHRIST
What and whom Oprah pushes and so do the seeker sensitive preachers aware or unawares but with the same hellish consequence.
REINVENTING JESUS CHRIST
Hey Churchmouse!!! You said, "Will BBC run busses to the inner city and bring in the Memphis it LOOOOOVES?"
Comment: Sshhhh!!! Puhlease...DON'T GIVE THEM ANY IDEAS!!!
”If a church can't afford the program without selling tickets, then cut back on the size of the program!”
AMEN! Can you imagine the disciples selling tickets to any of Jesus’ teachings or to His miracles? Turning the water into wine at the wedding feast should have been worth a few shekels and raising Lazarus from the dead would surely have filled their coffers to overflowing. Can’t you picture Matthew, Peter and John collecting money from those who gathered to hear the Sermon on the Mount?
Not in my Bible!
If the church cannot afford to freely present the Gospel in a program then perhaps that church should be doing something else.
Mary
"Ok, now you have gone too far. You can bash Warren and Hybels and Church Growth and Seeker Sensitive and Emergent and patriarchy and Patterson and even the dear ole SBC, but calling cats evil ... well, that's just WRONG! "
Junk, if you want to feed and house an animal that would throw you over in a heartbeat for fresh smoked salmon and never look back, well, that is YOUR perogitive. I prefer loyalty in my pets.
But I ask you: How many cats were sent into the rubble of the Twin Towers to rescue victims?
How many cats saved lives by providing warmth to hikers caught in snow storms even to the their own death by freezing?
How many cats have been known to warn of burglers breaking into homes?
How many cats have sniffed out drugs or bombs?
How many cats could nobly carry off the name Winston Churchill or McArthur?
Let the cat and dog wars begin.
Anyone following the Love Offering ??
The 2nd service went until 12:57,
the children's workers were wondering where Jim Angel was ;)
All we got was Phil Newberry's prayer "...aren't we BLESSED by having a pastor who GOD gives the vision to pass onto us...."
I missed that, gopher. I was still trying to get over him beginning that prayer (in the 11:00 service) with "Abba... Father... Dad... !" Good grief, show some respect!
All we got was Phil Newberry's prayer "...aren't we BLESSED by having a pastor who GOD gives the vision to pass onto us...."
5:27 PM, November 11, 2007
I thought the veil in the temple was torn in two and we no longer need to go through an earthly priest. Doesn't BBC still teach that scripture? Check out Hebrews in case you are wondering BBC'ers. Oh yeah...
Oh and... All believers are anointed. (1 John)
This is NOT a vision. It is a tactic or strategy with a specific purpose. Just like all the visuals and activities surrounding it to get buy in from the followers.
How exactly does Gaines describe this as a vision from God? Has anyone heard that one yet? This man is getting scarier and scarier.
Actually, this looks more like a tacitc to clean up his repuatation in Memphis from being a pro pedophile minster who ignores scripture.
At the PM service Brian Miller, (chairman of the Deacons, President of ECS, etc) , who Steve says " ... has upheld him through this last year......crying together, laughing together, praying together..." then prayed before communion with these words
".... Lord you break things to make them new..."
hmmm,,,, still talking about breaking Bellevue Baptist Church are we???
Wasn't the Bible referring to Jesus's body "... which is broken for you..."
1 Corinthians 11:24
Since the Bellevue leadership is trying to convince themselves just how much they love Memphis, I think it is rather ironic just how many of the Bellevue deacons, Bellevue staff, and Bellevue leaders actually live OUTSIDE the Memphis city limits. As I perused the 2007 Deacon Directory, I was quite entertained by the number who live in other areas such as Bartlett, Collierville, Germantown, Eads, Oakland, and other parts of Shelby or Fayette County.
Granted, it is still possible to love Memphis even if you live outside of the Memphis City Limits. HOWEVER, since BBC is spending large sums of money on TV commercials, billboards, large flyers and color printing, etc., it just seems that BBC should step up to the plate and get closer to the City of Memphis population…by actually living in Memphis!
Perhaps since Bellevue ALLEGES they love Memphis’ money…oops…I mean that they love Memphis, why don’t these self-anointed and self-proclaimed “leaders” move into the Memphis city limits?
Why don’t they put their school-age children in the Memphis City School system? In fact, if they did this, these BBC leaders could stop by the various Memphis City Schools throughout the week and eat a hot meal with their kids in the cafeterias! Think about it!! They could set a great example by making themselves available and visible at the troubled schools.
Why not invite other Memphis schools and basketball programs to participate in the Bellevue leagues?
Why not invite a different city of Memphis school orchestra/band to play with the BBC orchestra each Sunday morning? Wouldn’t this be a great opportunity for mentoring?
Why not have the BBC deacons go at least one evening per week and go door-to-door in the inner city to spread the Gospel? With roughly 180 deacons, if each deacon just made 5 home visits per week in South Memphis, etc., wouldn’t that set a great example of how Bellevue Loves Memphis? Of course, the BBC staff should also participate! So, we could have 180 BBC deacons and 20 BBC staff members do this each week!! 200 deacons/staff x 5 home visits = 1,000 opportunities to share the Gospel each week!!! This should be feasible. After all, Bellevue Loves Memphis…don’t they??
"After all, Bellevue Loves Memphis... don't they??"
Uh... hmmm.
bbc observations,
What great ideas!!! We know they read the blog, maybe they will consider your suggestions!!!
NOT!!!!
:)
Did they announce the totals from the Love Offering in the evening service? They always have in the past.
I know that someone here on the blog has already mentioned Oprah...please read this. 'Delusional' would be a good word for it I suppose. That is the one used in the Bible. Read:
Oprah and Friends
Seriously, It would be so helpful to Memphis, if the Grace Building could be used for INNER CITY AFTER SCHOOL PROGRAMS. Life changing. For sure. Some of the love offering can go for tutors/healthy snacks.
The interns could help out, and the gospel could be presented. Then, for those students who are using our sports programs; They would already be there for games/practices. What day is the love offering being delivered to the school system? I hope before the holidays.
FBC Jax has shut down his blog. *sigh* People seem to be ignoring the obvious.
Correction: FBC Jax is just pressing the pause buttom.....
I hope things there get better.
:-)
ima said...
I know that someone here on the blog has already mentioned Oprah...please read this. 'Delusional' would be a good word for it I suppose.
It's probably no coincidence she was named for the other daughter-in-law of Naomi, Orpah (her mother misspelled it), who returned to Moab and her pagan gods.
all2jesus said...
Did they announce the totals from the Love Offering in the evening service? They always have in the past.
Yes, $1.5M and some change. What bothers me is that there was some deception that came along with the announcement. The Pastor said "The total was significantly more than last year. I was in the car when Chip called me with the total, so I couldn't write down the exact percentage, but it was more than last year". That may not be an exact quote, but close enough.
I'm going on memory, but wasn't last year right around $1.6M? That was down from 2005, which was around $1.7M.
Even if I'm wrong, and last year was a huge falloff from 2005's $1.7M, this is still significantly less than the average Bellevue Love Offering for the past 10 years or so of around $2M.
There's a lot of new people in the building who haven't been here for years, and can spot the untruths, so they go unchallenged.
Bellevue Loves Memphis. Great concept, doomed to failure. Why you ask? Because people aren't as stupid as we treat them. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:35 NKJV
"Memphis" knows that Bellevue doesn't even love Bellevue. How can they believe that we love them? Even if they don't know the specifics, they can sense it. In any event, God knows what's going on, and how can He bless outreach to the "unchurched" when we've allowed large numbers of our flock to become "Cast Sheep" without so much as a "Bleeeet" from the Pastor or leadership. What happens when a Sunday School teacher goes to the leadership and says "I need to leave as a matter of conviction". Does he try to understand concerns? Talk you out of it? Pray with you? Ask you to lunch or dinner to minister and reach out? No, he projects a casual attitude of "that's just how the sheep leaves the fold, hope you find a new one".
God doesn't bless that.
Another random thought:
When I was in highschool, and the Bellevue Cordova Campus was new, I remember people making fun of "Six Flags over Jesus". After the Halloween Carnival (Family Fun Festival), that's no longer a joke, but a reality. That's the new strategy, throw a party and hope that some of the large crowds stick.
By the way, i've heard anywhere from 10 to 15k people were on the property for that event, reportedly two thirds were non-Bellevue members. Out of that two thirds, only 400 families were identified as prospects worthy of a follow up.
Draw your own conclusions here.
Confirms my theory that the people who go to church sponsored events like that, tend to be other church members, not the "unchurched". In fact, most of the new additions over the past year have been movements from other churches.
scion said,
"The New Age movement will spread, and there will be no one to battle against it, because there are fewer and fewer true Christians left. I daresay that the majority of members in todays "Christian" denominations and churches aren't truly saved, and will be the first to fall to this New Age line of thinking."
Reply: mystery Babylon?
"Without doubt, many sermons have been preached from the pulpits of Bible-believing churches that have characterized the Tower of Babel as an example of rebellion against God and the object of His judgement. However, on October 30-31, 2004, the pulpit of Saddleback Community Church (Southern Baptist Convention) in Orange County, California, was in all likelihood the first ecclesiastical location in history from which the Tower of Babel would be presented as an example of what individual members of the Church could accomplish when functioning in concert. In addition, many of the 700 churches chosen to pilot "40 Days of Community" at the same time may have used this positive promotion of the Tower of Babel."
--"Rebuilding the Tower of Babel, the Dark Side of the Purpose-Driven, New Paradigm Church"
by Mac Dominick
This book begins with a brief and very interesting history of the Babylonian Mystery Religions which were preserved by Nimrod's widow Semiramis and her illegitimate son Tammuz. It traces their spread through the world and even into the church of Rome. Then Mr. Dominick reminds us:
"...in the 1980s..the image of the Tower of Babel began to appear on promotional material for the European Union. This, of course, should come as no surprise to the biblically astute individual who understands the total ramifications of the modern political globalism."
SOBERING, TO SAY THE LEAST. ???
Hey Folks: Most of the people in Memphis that BBC is suppose to love, don't know the first thing about BBC and could care less. They are to busy killing each other and getting involved in the drug trade. With such a high rate of school drop outs, any help that BBC might offer will be a complete waste of time.
COGIC just completed their week long convention and would you like to guess how many public schools they visited to encourage the kids to stay in school? How much time did they spend on the crime problem in Memphis? They were busy with church meetings, eating out and showing off their expensive clothes.
Okay, someone help me out here about the Love Offering. Even though there are thousands of members whom have departed from BBC, they (the admin) say they STILL managed to raise 1.5M or so? Since there is no comparison between the thousands of members who have left and the number of new members who have joined,would this imply that the Millionaire Boy’s Club who has taken over the administration must have given heavily to this years offering? Does this also mean that the shortfall difference would be the offerings of the working class/poor membership who have left BBC?
THEREFORE, since it is these same millionaires who are “reaching out” to the inner city of Memphis (which we were already doing, jsut not bragging about it), all the while running off the middle class/working poor MEMBERS who were already giving sacrificially to the Love offering, is it these same middle class/working poor members also those who could not get financial assistance from the church in time of need even though the benevolence offerings were substantial?
If I understand this correctly, am I seeing more smoke and mirrors here? Where are the details appearing in the official report? Oh yeah, we don’t get an official report. What we get is a “if I remember right, I think we exceeded previous offerings” –duh!!!
Documentation please??????
BTW, on another note, this BBC benevolence program was run by none other than PW. I wonder if his “records” were checked for possible misconduct when the powers that be were checking the records of Biblical Guidance during their “investigation”. I personally know someone who applied for assistance had noticed on the financial aid application that there was a question about previous sexual abuse. RED FLAGS should be flying everywhere if you are asked something of this nature in order to receive financial assistance from YOUR HOME CHURCH or any other place in this world! I would hope and pray that the CPS looked at these records as well as the counseling records. I wonder if they were even made aware of this avenue of possible abuse even existed?
More Tangled webs.....???
amazed,
Prepare to have the "racist" card dealt in your next hand!
Perhaps the money in the Love Offering figure is coming from another fund inside the church.
In years past, the figures were actually closer to $2,000,000 in cash on the day of the offering and another $1,000,000 in pledges for a total of $3,000,000. I believe the largest love offering on record was the year before Dr. Rogers retired.
It's very interesting that the interest income Bellevue has earned each month for the past several years has averaged over $150,000 per month.
For the first 6 months of this year, each month averaged over $150,000 with June of 2007 producing $161,055 in interest income.
In July, the interest income dropped to $34K, August $30K, and Sept $25K. Why would the interest income drop 80% unless there was less money earning interest?
This is a huge drop. Why the big drop in interest income for Bellevue? The current budget is 23,500,000 and according to David Coombs, the giving is only down about $1,900,000 from a year ago. (14 million in 2006 vs. 12.1 million in 2007 for the same time period)
Does anyone know the answer to these financial questions? It doesn't appear that the church has any scheduled business meetings on the calendar like the bylaws call for.
Just within the last couple of days, I read that the ecumenical movement is another Tower of Babel...no more, no less. I tend to agree...I can see that. They won't try to build a tower again, but then they won't have to. This is the end of the Church Age. Building a way won't be necessary...this time God will provide a way. However, it won't be the people of the movement that will be leaving. It will be the remnant this time.
Fogmachine..The interest income is down because the savings account is being depleted. I doubt very much if giving is covering the expenses. When you operate in secrecy, its easy to raid the cookie jar.
Hmmm
I'm wondering if the Cordova/Bartlett community could support another mall located at
2000 Appling.
amazed said...
Fogmachine..The interest income is down because the savings account is being depleted. I doubt very much if giving is covering the expenses. When you operate in secrecy, its easy to raid the cookie jar.
12:28 PM, November 13, 2007
Hence the intent of the secrecy! If there is nothing to hide, why hide it?
I just read this post on the U-Tube bit where Senator Grassley is calling for an investigation into the unethical/unlawful expenditures of some of the psudoministers called televangelists.
"For those who refused to believe that "Pastors" are never wrong, you are WRONG. If you read "Ezekiel" 34th chapter (Old Testament) God deals with the Shepards (sic) who MISLEAD the flock. Open your eyes people, Satan is not attacking them, they are being exposed by God. You can support this behavior, but as the WORD says, BE NOT A PARTAKER IN ANOTHER MAN'S SINS. Stealing and embezzlement is a SIN!!!!!! When will you ever learn that they are "people" first. They are not beyond chastisement."
Sound familiar?
MOM4 said...
I just read this post on the U-Tube bit where Senator Grassley is calling for an investigation into the unethical/unlawful expenditures of some of the psudoministers called televangelists.
"For those who refused to believe that "Pastors" are never wrong, you are WRONG. If you read "Ezekiel" 34th chapter (Old Testament) God deals with the Shepards (sic) who MISLEAD the flock. Open your eyes people, Satan is not attacking them, they are being exposed by God. You can support this behavior, but as the WORD says, BE NOT A PARTAKER IN ANOTHER MAN'S SINS. Stealing and embezzlement is a SIN!!!!!! When will you ever learn that they are "people" first. They are not beyond chastisement."
Sound familiar?
2:23 PM, November 13, 2007
Heres an example of the spending that Grassley is looking into. The church where Creflo Dollar (ironic no?) pastors bought him a ROLLS ROYCE to drive. Not something an average person would drive like a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry for example..but a freaking rolls royce!!!
New BBC Open Forum said...
Uh oh.
oc says:
Hmmmm. And I only asked for a new Harley. What was I thinkin'?
:)
Watching the video of the Copelands, it makes me sick seeing that. The way I look at it, people like Copeland, Osteen, and Hinn are doing a lot of damage to the cause of Christ in that they continue the perception that pastors are nothing but a bunch of crooks who want to swindle the sick and the elderly out of their money. They are the proverbial wolf in sheeps clothing.
On a lighter note...you think Al Gore's gonna fuss at the Copelands for their CO2 emissions? lol
Lynn said:
On a lighter note...you think Al Gore's gonna fuss at the Copelands for their CO2 emissions? lol
oc says:
I think Al has emitted enough gas himself since the days he invented the internet, don't you think?
Sometimes ya just gotta laugh!
Yup NASS. Sounds like someone's hit the bottle there.
That bespectacled, red-headed woman near the end was a scream! That howl of hers could break glass.
Here is a rather interesting video. Its quite interesting and shows how hypocritical tv evangelists are.
Clips of Moonbats
They put Foster Brooks and W.C. Fields to shame. Not to mention Ted Kennedy.
New BBC Open Forum said...
That bespectacled, red-headed woman near the end was a scream! That howl of hers could break glass.
9:29 PM, November 13, 2007
That was a howl? It sounded like a crow squawking.
This might sound a bit harsh...but perhaps the tax exempt status given to churches should be taken away. Just as a check and balance to remove some of the corruption.
Lynn,
Here are the other six "expos" that go along with #5 which you posted:
Expo #1
Expo #2
Expo #3
Expo #4
Expo #6
Yeah I know. I'm watching the first one.
Memo to Benny Hinn's wife. The terms Holy Ghost and Enema should NEVER...EVER...be used in the same sentence.
Lynn,
I thought the same thing.
Since the topic of the moment seems so be moonbats, I have a question. What is it with some of those Pentecostal women? Big hair wigs (one has a touch of poodle pink in hers), false eyelashes that would embarrass Daisy Duck, and faces so thickly coated with latex paint that a putty knife couldn't get through it. Don't these women have mirrors?
This has baffled me for years.
M~
Mary said...
Since the topic of the moment seems so be moonbats, I have a question. What is it with some of those Pentecostal women? Big hair wigs (one has a touch of poodle pink in hers), false eyelashes that would embarrass Daisy Duck, and faces so thickly coated with latex paint that a putty knife couldn't get through it. Don't these women have mirrors?
This has baffled me for years.
M~
10:30 PM, November 13, 2007
Thats actually a good question. I never understood the need to go overboard on the hair and makeup.
Lynn said:
Thats actually a good question. I never understood the need to go overboard on the hair and makeup.
oc says:
So is that why you don't?
:)
I guess I should add that I don't have a problem with women wearing make-up. I wear it myself. What puzzles me is why they make clowns of themselves.
M~
Big hair wigs, false eyelashes that would embarrass Daisy Duck, and faces so thickly coated with latex paint that a putty knife couldn't get through it.
And that's just the men. You oughta see their wives!
Don't forget the perfect, ultra white teeth. :-D
And the AquaNet. Lots of AquaNet!
Have you noticed that most of the men (if they have hair) have "evangelist hair"? It never moves!
Yep... reminds me of a line from Steel Magnolias, "Just tease it and make it look like a football helmet."
M~
Are there different types of pentecostals????
The babysitter I had many years ago said she could NOT wear makeup or cut her hair......
everything is so confusing....
"Are there different types of pentecostal????"
I don't have a clue.
M~
gmom,
I think that's the Pentecostal Church of God or another similar group, not the Assemblies of God which is what many of the TV preachers are.
Hello BBC Bloggers:
Speaking of exposes of pastoral abuse: here is a link to a piece done by our local news media in Jacksonville on the Bob Gray molestation at Trinity Baptist Church:
Trinity Baptist Cover-Up
Just briefly: Bob Gray was the long time, much beloved pastor at Trinity during the 70's and 80s, and several years ago 10 or more people came forward to accuse him of sexual molestation. Just days before the trial was to begin this month, the monster Bob Gray died.
The current pastor...CURRENT PASTOR, who is on staff today...knew about the molestation all the way back in the early 90's (as this expose shows) and covered it up, and even had the church send Bob Gray as a missionary to Germany without alerting the missionary agency about Bob Gray's pedophilia.
fbc,
Please make your profile visible.
Bob Gray died, so there won't be any criminal lawsuits against him going to trial. However, there are still civil lawsuits pending against the church.
I'd take note of this story if I were Steve Gaines!
Anyone seen this?
Jesus did not come to earth to be the Messiah???
More on John Hagee:
Article 1
Article 2
Getting back to the thread topic..
Today Paul Proctor ( a solid watchman on the wall ...wrote this piece on the whole BILL HYBELS OOPSIE event.
WILLOW CREEK WASTELAND
"Getting back to the thread topic... "
I gave up on that a long time ago! But thank you for trying.
How many people would give money to the church if it lost it's tax exempt status and tithes couldn't be a deduction on your taxes?
Was the early church in the New Testament considered tax exempt?
How many New Testament pastors in the early church made 10 times or more what the average member made?
NBBCOF..I'm still waiting on the "race" card you told me to expect.
amazed,
Did I ever say the cards were going to be dealt here? ;-)
NBBCOF..If not here, where?
Some other blog, I think.
fogmachine,
It's interesting you bring up the point about tax deductions. In the Old Testament the tithe WAS the tax, and like a tax, had the weight of law to enforce it. Interestingly enough, It was approximatly 20-30% (Approx what we pay now in taxes)...NOT 10%. John McArthur has a study out on that.
I cannot find NT teaching on "the tithe", much less the tax deductibility, but I doubt very seriously the tax codes worked that way. In fact, usually the Romans decreed that a certain area (neighborhood?) come up with a certain amount, and it was up the the tax collectors to deliver that amount to the government. Remember Matthew the tax collector? The reason he was so hated, was because the made their living shaking down the people, and everything left after the Romans got their quota, he could keep.
If you have been in this blog for any time, you will have seen or heard of Paul Washer of Heart Cry Ministry.
This December 28th-30th, Paul Washer and several other men of Truth will be hosting a youth conference like no other in .....Chatanooga Tennesse.
Here is a link to hear Paul Washer and Ingrid Schleuter of VCY America discuss the problem of waterred down gospels and false churches promoting a dumbed down message to youth and not evidencing Holy Spirit regeneration.
CHATTANOOGA YOUTH CONFERENCE TO HAPPEN DECEMBER 2007
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