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- New BBC Open Forum
- This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church and the SBC can come to comment and exchange ideas. Anonymous comments are welcome, but it is respectfully requested that instead of choosing the "Anonymous" option those who want to post comments without logging in select a unique screen name. This lets everyone tell the difference between one anon and another without revealing any personal information. Under the box where you compose your comment where it says "Choose an identity," just check "Name/URL" and type in the screen name of your choice. You can leave the URL field blank. It would be helpful if you'd use the same screen name for any subsequent comments. This makes reading and following discussions easier, helps avoid confusion, and doesn't result in one person being credited for writing something s/he didn't. Comments by posters whose only purpose is to disrupt (i.e. trolls) will be subject to deletion. Your cooperation will be appreciated.
626 comments:
1 – 200 of 626 Newer› Newest»Churchmouse said, "This is ‘guided imagery’ or ‘visualization,’ –pure new age mysticism. This is so offensive; I can hardly believe it came from Bellevue Baptist. Now, we have seen this with our own eyes. Can the labyrinth be far away?"
Comment: Churchmouse, you have hit the 'bullseye'! This is mysticism! And you know what I have always said about the labyrinth! There really is no doubt in my mind that the labyrinth is designed into the plans of the prayer center.
Also, I am a little confused about the 31 days? I should think prayer should be made a priority for the pastor of Bellevue...permanently. Why 31 days? The Bellevue members should pray collectively and permanently for their pastor. This seems ritualistic? I haven't read all of this yet...I'll read it in it's entirity before I say anything else. Anyway...just wanted to say that I think you are right on the mark.
Eph 6:10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Am I the only one that thinks that the choice of scriptural authority that David chooses is more than ironic?
Why is it ALWAYS all about him?
What about a Prayer Guide for the month and SG can get a mention along with our missionaries, our associational and state leaders, other BBC staff and employees, gov. officials, our children, the military, etc.... I personally know some missionaries out on the field literally taking the bullet. They live on donations, homeschool their children, and continually battle malaria. One of them had their baby kidnapped from their daddy's arms. He couldn't fight back because he is in a wheelchair. THESE need our prayers.
Just because it is, I guess.
Well it was worth it, to get that pretty beach picture of the family. (!) We need to pray for their beach get-a-ways too I guess. No, really! REALLY!
Day 11: Integrity
Day 18: Discernment
Nass: You've got *important* mail.
This is the most clever thing I have ever seen. Just think: When SG publicly sins, twists scripture or ignores it, then it is the congregation's fault! They did not pray enough.
Then they can start beating each other up on who prays the most and who is not praying.
This officially make SG the cult leader. It is all about him all the time.
Should we pray for pastors, elders, etc. You bet. But all the prayer in the world is not going to make one ounce of difference until there is confession and repentance. A contrite humble heart.
But I would resent my church telling me HOW to pray or WHAT to pray for. I pray for the Name of Jesus to be Glorified through my pastor. For the FULL gospel to be taught. In the end, it is NOT about the pastor. It is about his accurately teaching the Word and his holiness. He is just the messenger. Not the anointed king. All true believers are anointed.
I can't even read it all word for word....it makes me physically ill!!!!
Is this a Baptist church still??? Who is David Coombs....I liked the idea of the brute of a CEO coming in to clean up the mess the ol boys made....remember his friend that came on here over and over saying DC would restore integrity to BBC???
Now he is the guru of visionary mumbo jumbo ...Steve is the BBC pope!!!!??
Will the children put a picture of Steve by their bed like the Mormans do of their bishop (or whoever he is )??????
I am so glad I don't have to rescue any of my family from this unsacred place.
Is this kind of cultish,brain washing, indoctrination going on in other "flagship" Baptist churches???????
Who captured Ms Higgy's brain????Is this what BS has in mind for GBC????
I am overwhelmed.
If this unholy bull doesn't put a check in the spirits of some left at BBC....nothing will.
I just cannot imagine an intelligent mom being comfortable with this mess.
Come Lord Jesus!!!!!
cm and ima,
I'm very reluctant to respond to your posts in view of the way I seem to have offended fellow bloggers in the past and the responses I've gotten. I've always received gracious and kind responses from the two of you, so I'll post my opinion of the prayer guide and what's been said thus far.
As long as prayers are offered in Jesus' name with the full understanding that we have no hope of ever approaching the throne of grace without Him, and the contrition that necessarily accompanies that knowledge, a prayer cannont be called mystical, at least according to my understanding of the term. New Age and all other like-minded cults believe and teach that God's presence can be invoked directly at our convenience without our great high priest.
Creative visualization is a very well defined method of creating in our minds' eye what we would like to occur, and then casting that vision out to whatever spiritual powers are nearby. Since they are not prayed in the name and with the authority of Jesus, they are instead offered to demons. (Yes, I'm sadly familiar with this practice, but by God's grace I've been forgiven.)
What 'reverend' Coombs has asked us to do is to picture a scenario and then let that picture guide our prayers to the father in Jesus' name. I don't consider that to be mysticism at all. Worldly, contrived, shallow, self-centered yes - but not satanic. I think it's reckless for DC to suggest such a method of prayer in a world full of satanic cults, but I feel like it's wrong to call this prayer guide something that it's not.
I hope that my disagreeing with your thoughts doesn't come across as overbearing or arrogant, because it's not meant to be. Remember what Patrick Henry said, that he might not agree with you, but he'd give his life to protect your right to say it. Could you share what your thoughts about what mysticism is? I'm sure can find the common ground between us.
Personally, I'm going to be praying day 6 for SG every day. And I'm going to add a decent amount for JP too.
With faith as small as a mustard seed...
Lin: You pray Day 6, I'll pray day 11 and 18.
:-)
Lin said...
Should we pray for pastors, elders, etc. You bet. But all the prayer in the world is not going to make one ounce of difference until there is confession and repentance.
Confession & Repentance are the prayer topics for months with Days 32 & 33.
I am remembering sitting and teaching my 3rd and 4th graders at BBC.
We almost NEVER talked about Bro R.
It just didn't come up! We were reading the Bible, talking about Jesus....
there innocent "unscripted" prayers were precious!
Why would a SS teacher or a parent want to focus on Steve????
This just unnerves me.
Where are the hearts committed only to the Lord...HIS Lordship?????
Ok...so we KNOW who is in authority at BBC....SG and DC have been VERY clear.
God is NOT in authority in that building.....
I am so upset for the children....will those "waiting to see" not see this for what it is?????
Will the pastors continue to glad hand SG and laugh at his arrogant jokes?
Larry said:
What 'reverend' Coombs has asked us to do is to picture a scenario and then let that picture guide our prayers to the father in Jesus' name. I don't consider that to be mysticism at all.
Question:
Why would we choose a picture guide our prayers? Is prayer not personal conversation between someone and their Heavenly Father in Jesus name? Did Jesus not give us a model prayer?
To have another human guiding my personal conversations with God through pictures is ....
No, I am sorry Larry. We must disagree, here.
Junk, you dog! You made this blonde go looking for day 32 and 33 thinking there was an addendum or something! You are worse than my brothers and I always fall for it! (Like...duh)
(quit laughing)
Where are the prayer requests for the lost, for those who have been asked to leave the church, for a deeply troubled Bellevue Baptist? Where are the pleas for wisdom for her leadership? Where are the cries for forgiveness and redemption?
Where are the petitions for Spirit filled teachers, deacons, coaches, orchestra members, or choir members? Where are the laments for the empty Bible study rooms and the silent empty hallways? Where are the petitions for a church in serious financial decline?
Where are the prayers for Israel, as Syria and Iran race to develop nuclear weapons? Where are the prayers for our nation as she faces a national election while her sons sleep in tents in the Middle Eastern deserts? Where are petitions for protection from terrorism within our borders? Where are the cries for mercy from a Holy God?
There is so much to pray about.
I think BBC is using some techniques from the "secret".
I walked out of a meeting when they were showing the film.
At the time ,it hadn't been on Oprah and Larry King...My guts just told me to get out.
I totally expected a few others to follow me out....no one did.
We have become comfortable mixing in the world's counterfeit with things that are Holy.
Anyone else notice that BBC is becoming the flagship Pentecostal church of the SBC?
I mean, this is something Creflo Dollar or the Copelands would put out. What next, prayer cloths?
Someone please tell me how this Glorifies God and does not put Gaines on center stage?
Larry, Step back and think for a moment. All the guided imagery in this piece revolves around Gaines. From the carefully crafted visuals wordng in the letter to the pictures in the brochure to the carefully worded prayers. Check out #22. Imitate Gaines? I think NOT. Not in anything or anyway.
Praying this even in Jesus' name make it even more blasphemous because there has been no public repentance about ignoring and twisting of the Word and it is all about Gaines....NOT our Savior.
Why not pray for the lost? Why not pray for Name of Jesus to be Glorified in Memphis? Not just by Gaines but by every believer. Why not pray for sanctification and discipline of all believers? Why not pray for Jesus to come quickly?
Think on how Jesus taught the disciples to pray.
This whole thing is downright scary. Rod Parsely would be proud.
These prayers don't even resemble the model of the Lord's Prayer.
Thanks, lin...I had missed "imitate Steve".....
would like to have kept it that way.
I noticed that "the scornful" are mentioned twice (Day 11 & Day 24). I wonder who those folks are?
Isaiah 1: 15And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
All I can say is that I never cease to be amazed at the efforts of man to control others. We have become so savvy with the methods of the world. Manipulation is too nice a word for this.
This is the rank encoragement of divination...
Holy Prayer is never accompanied by forming mental images to enhance the " power" of prayer...
However, unholy prayer is always a form of a technique or divining device to get what one desires via a mental image or divination exercise.
This letter explains better than anything else what Bellevue is now dealing with.
churchmouse,
Thank you for your response.
I'm not saying that another man should ever guide our prayers. My concern is with calling the prayer guide satanic, and that's what labeling it as New Age is doing. If that's your intent, then I won't argue with you. I'll just state that as a former New Age cultist who was redeemed by God's grace I don't see many similarities. I see a lot of carnality, but not pantheism. We will have to disagree here (which is perfectly all right with me).
Lin,
The flyer says to imitate SG as far as his witnessing goes, and this is his strong suit. Yes, this is contrived in the sense that if he's worthy of imitation in one way then he's worthy of imititation in others. Personally, I would like to be better at sharing my faith, but I don't need any role models on how to climb fences and whack people. I think we should all take a step back and really discern what's wrong with the prayer guide.
It leaps off the pages to me...
"The flyer says to imitate SG as far as his witnessing goes, and this is his strong suit. "
So witnessing is a technique? Shouldn't one be regenerated first? What is one witnessing about when they twist and ignore the Word? Can one be regenerated without confession and repentance?
Ah yes, let's all pray for the Pope of Bellevue. . . Bellevue could learn far so many lessons from the Catholic Church. . . can I get an Amen.
Folks, Combine this with the loyalty oath. How scary is that thought?
Larry, What is leaping off the pages at you?
AMEN.
lin,
I'm afraid we'll have to part company here. If God can use a donkey's mouth, then he can use mine too.
This is the simple gospel that I long to share:
Jesus is risen.
Blessings,
Larry
Churchmouse said...
To have another human guiding my personal conversations with God through pictures is ....
Catholicism
Well, I think we make this golden calf, and we call it Steve.....
"If God can use a donkey's mouth, then he can use mine too."
As long as the Words are from the Holy Spirit as is taught in scripture.
we will have to disagree. The twisting and willful ignoring of the God's Holy Word is never ok. We are told to contend for the truth and beware of false teachers.
Besides, I am a bit confused about this whole witnessing thing and Gaines. Are they talking about from the pulpit? Does he go out and knock on doors or what? How is he known for 'witnessing' which is very different from speaking engagements.
Matthew 23
15Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves
Thanks for helping me out, astounded!
concernedsbcer,
I don't see much of Jesus Christ in the prayer guide. I see a lot about God, a lot about SG, and a lot about behavior, but not much that could lead a lost man to salvation.
There is no mention whatsoever of the cross.
Jesus is risen.
Blessings,
Larry
9:34 PM, October
Larry, I love you.... But I have to ask, how do people know they NEED a Savior? What are they saved to?
The greatest witness is a life lived. It's the being, not the doing.
Sorry but I was over-exposed to an aggressive 'soul winning' approach in the 60s and 70s.
The highest calling of the Christian life is to become like Him. It's not how many times you randomly challenge someone about their faith.
Is this stuff pastor worship, or what????
oops....sorry larry.
not sure how that happened.
my bad.
everybody - the previous post isn't the REAL LARRY!
I find the need for BBC to rewrite the prayer guide for their sheep to be quite interesting. I still have a copy of the former prayer guide that we used when Dr Pollard and Dr. Rogers led the congregation. Actually I have several copies of it if anyone is interested in reading it. It is still available, I believe. If you would like a copy go to Amazon.com or your local book store and ask for a copy of the Holy Bible.
Larry, I see what you mean. It looks to me like this is not a prayer guide to lead others to Christ, or to pray for events that impact Christianity. This is a guide to pray for SG. I think it is what it is. Does it make me uncomfortable? Yes. Do I think it meets needs? Well, yes, Steve's needs. Do I think it's self-serving? Yes. Do I need a reminder to pray for my pastor? No.
Hey baby girl!!
I guess I know what you think of what's happening at the church you grew up in!!!
so sad!!
larry said...
concernedsbcer,
I don't see much of Jesus Christ in the prayer guide. I see a lot about God, a lot about SG, and a lot about behavior, but not much that could lead a lost man to salvation.
There is no mention whatsoever of the cross.
In my opinion that in itself places it in the category of being Satanic. Anything that veers the eyes from the prize is Satanic.
Hey, now, is there another 'bogus Larry' horning in on me?
But that's a good word, Larry 18640. How's the housing market?
:-)
Yours truly,
Larry 11796
(the real bogus larry)
A farce and and fraud of a pastor search.
An improperly called special business meeting.
A preacher (not pastor) who comes to destroy a church.
A sham of a "Communications Committee" that publishes its findings before holding a meeting.
A serious case of the stupids with regard to a incestuous child molester.
Now a self serving narcissistic prayer guide.
Where are the Godly men of Bellevue?
Is there no one left to bring these people into accountabilty?
If it weren't so sad I would be having a laughing fit right now.
All of you who like to pull out your Bible club to beat up those who post here. Where is your scripture supporting a man called to destroy the church? Answer, there isn't one.
We may have moved on but the pain is still very real for us. We remember the days of grace and glory. Now my once beloved church is just another popular cult.
You know, setting all the glaring theological things aside - This whole prayer guide just really feels forced and . . . desperate.
forced on the people...but they don't seem to care.
desperate on the part of SG to be king.
I kinda like day 4.
"Preach the Word, in season or out of season..."
Except on Wednesdays, which this special day apparently corresponds to some kind of time warp in space that the dumb masses don't understand...
Just sayin'.
oc.
Ain't this stuff gettin' scary to ya'll???
Man, this is man-worship.
Just sayin'.
oc.
page 2 day 7.....was it "modeling" godliness when Donna commented they always have to "take out the trash" when they come into a church!!
I guess BBC is keeping the main thing the main thing..Steve Gaines
Larry,
There are many, many different aspects to mysticism. You refer to it as New Age and that is fine. I believe New AGe to be a phase of mysticism. You are asking me what mysticism is and you have practiced it? Some other areas of mysticism would cover areas of comtemplative spiritualism and another would be eastern mysticism, the early church, ...paganism, quietness, etc. etc. etc. You could even conjure up some of the mystics themselves such as Madame Guyon, St. Teresa of Avila, Bro. Lawrence, St. Ignatius Loyola, St. John of the Cross, Hildegard of Bingen, and many others. I am not wanting to debate you on this subject. What is important is that the strange and unusual is being practiced in our churches (notably Bellevue) ...the abnormal To me, it is mysticism...to you it is something else. So be it. You and I have disagreed before...sometimes we have to agree to disagree. I agreed with Churchmouse, still do. I agree with amazed and concerned on this subject, not to mention watchman. BBC is totally off the page.
We'd all be better off if more folks in more churches would regularly pray many of the things in the prayer guide for their pastors. But I have concerns about what seems to be an overly strong focus on one man (SG) for the efforts of the BBC prayer ministry thus far. Somehow I doubt that this was created and sent out without the blessing of the powers that be.
It's sad that the trust in leadership has been so damaged that people have to be wary of a prayer guide for the pastor.
Posters and readers, we visited Ellendale Baptist two weeks ago. We will visit again. So many little "things" were so right for us. The music and the songs sung, the preaching of God's holy word, the genuine "I love you" attitude of the people who came on their own to meet and greet us, the significant number (80?) of well behaved and attentive youth, the fact that we felt like we were in church and NOT at a drum pounding bump and grind for Jesus pep rally. Dr. Jerry Harmon is their new pastor. We have along way to go before we make a decision on our new church home but with this visit we are encouraged. We sat in pews and didn’t feel like we were sitting is someone’s “I always sit here place”. There is just something genuinely Christ like there. Well of course, my humble opinion.
For the love of Christ Jesus,
Padroc
Phillipians 4:4-9
4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice. 5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. 6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
"forced on the people...but they don't seem to care.
desperate on the part of SG to be king."
Gal 2:4And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
Gal 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
I'm wondering if SG himself wrote it.
Seems to me that they are trying to cram SG down everyone's throat.
It's like they think he's a victim, and mean ol bloggers are out to get him...
If they are worried about this tiny band of bloggers, we have more power than we EVER dreamed of having, and quite frankly, aren't interested in any power at all.
We just want repentance and brokeness from a man who is arrogant and haughty.
You want prayer for SG?? Ok,here it is:
I will pray that he be broken. I will pray that he be humble. I will pray that his wife will not look at church members as " trash".
I will pray that he has more sense than to climb another fence and to tresspass on another's propertyl I will pray that he does not allow another pedophile or sexual pervert to remain on staff, putting women and children at risk.
There is much to pray about where SG is concerned..WE could all get blisters on our knees praying for that man, but we don't need a prayer guide. We just need to look at his past behavior.
Dave Hunt expounds on the SPIRITUAL dangers of "visualization ".
SPIRITUAL DANGERS OF VISUALIZATION
bbc_observations wrote:
"I especially like the Scotty Shows bobble head, the Steve Tucker Smirk Doll, the pull-string Chuck Taylor puppet, and the miniature play set with a replica of John Caldwell climbing over the fence…using Mark Dougharty as a stepping stone."
In my set MD was using JC as a stepping stone. Did your set include the David Coombs action figure?
"But all of these fine gifts pale in comparison to the Steve Gaines life-size doll with a built-in mp3 player."
I guess that one wouldn't fit in my mailbox today. :-( Maybe tomorrow!
SOTL,
AMEN.
Ima and others, am I correct when I say spiritualized imaginings are a form of mysticism?
Isn’t this where we conjure / imagine that there is some kind of supernatural powers in our thoughts which are delivered by our words? The deceived believe that by intensely focusing our concentration of thought on a “protective shield” renders this shield a reality if in fact we claim that the basis of our thought has it’s origins in scripture?
What David Coombs has written contains what seems like classic spiritualized imaginings to me. Writing like this to your self is dangerous, but writing like this to thousands as a representative of Bellevue Baptist Church is beyond dangerous. I believe it is self condemning. I believe that this may be like giving the devil a foothold in the ministry.
Am I missing something or am I the one deceived?
Padroc
Sorry for the faulty link..
Here is the article detailing the spiritual danger of visualization practices, by Dave Hunt.
DANGERS OF PRACTICING VISUALIZATION
ya know...
Think of the missionaries that could have used the money that it cost to send out this " it's all about me" brochure....
Sad, really really sad.
Occult expert Dave Hunt and Former witch now born again Johanna Michaelson explain in this short John Ankerberg 10 minute video on Google the origins of 'VISUALIZATION" ...and its' central role in new age philosophy and practice.
JUST WHAT IS VISUALIZATION AND WHAT ARE ITS SPIRITUAL ROOTS AND DANGERS ?
Interesting reading: A Plea to Pray for Pastors by Gardiner Spring.
And I found this:
“Let the thought sink deep into the heart of every church, that their minister will be such a minister as their prayers make him. … How perilous is the condition of that minister ... whose heart is not encouraged, whose hands are not strengthened, and who is not upheld
by the prayers of his people! …
“It is at a fearful expense that ministers are ever allowed to enter the pulpit without being preceded, accompanied, and followed by the earnest prayers of the churches. It is no marvel that the pulpit is so powerless, and ministers so often disheartened when there are so few to hold up their hands. … When the churches cease to pray for ministers, ministers will no longer be a blessing to the churches.” Gardiner Spring (1785-1873)
The above quote is at the beginning of a prayer guide called 31 Days of Praying for Your Pastor.
I find stark contrasts between the BBC Prayer Guide and this one, and, while Jesus is not named in either prayer guide, I don't find Him "missing" in this one.
The first page reads so much better than DC's letter...
I couldn't use the BBC guide. I like this one.
Ima, I think most 31 day prayer guides are to be repeated, not just prayed through once. I have my girls read through Proverbs, a chapter a day. Each month, they seem to "get" something different out of the reading.
There was a great piece on CRV this morning about manipulation and controlling people. The scripture is probably nothing new to those scholars who share on this blog on a regular basis, but it is so appropriate. Blessings!
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
Maybe I am dazed this early in the morning, but, the first thing that jumps out at me, is that they have stopped even hoping the numbers are okay...my reaction to this prayer guide is sadness. Just Bellevue's collective last breath to hold on. DESPERATION. Things have to be really, really bad.
The reason it is so strange doesn't have to be so sinister, DC IS NOT A MINISTER, he is in way over his head (like the one posted of the action figure...) He has no idea what he is even saying.AGAIN, sad.
BUT, the sadness ends when you read the underlying anger/blame/denial of the writer. There aren't many of the requests that don't pity Bro. S. and lash out at the massive numbers that have seen the light and left. Even #28, SALVATION, begs for new members. (?) And DAY #30? I wonder why there are no prayers for the "gone" leaders to return? SO, the prayer now for SG is that all these unsaved people visit BBC, fall in love with SG's loving counsel, and then become great leaders. OK. Good one. Addition suggested: #32 TRUTH
Continuing the discussion with Dave Hunt and author Johanna Michaelson on the ever increasing dangers and unholy root of "visualization "and how and why it is spiritually harmful and not legitimately " Christian " by any stretch of the imagination.
Part 2 of this great video series.
ORIGIN AND ROOT OF NEW AGE VISUALIZATION IN THE WORLD AND IN THE CHURCH
Padroc: I agree with you. I think it is dangerous. I'm also praying for the Godly people I know that are still there.....and wondering how they can be.......
Pastor Bob Dewaay of Twin Cities Felloship in Minnesota writes numerous and excellent articles detailing the perils that are sweeping America and that have invaded the Church.
Here is his article on ' THE DANGERS OF DIVINATION ".
DANGERS OF DIVINATION BY PASTOR BOB DEWAAY
Dave Hunt and Johanna Michaelson discuss how popular authors promoting "visualization " to the Church are promoting a " different Jesus , a Jesus not found in the pages of Gods' Holy Word. Part 3 of this excellent video series.
VISUALIZING IN THE CHURCH ...LEADING TO A DIFFERENT JESUS
Padroc said, "Ima and others, am I correct when I say spiritualized imaginings are a form of mysticism?
I would refer you, or anyone else, to the posts that Watchman has so graciously posted. We are blessed by his participation on this blog...in that he is so knowledgeable on these issues. I will say this: it is one thing to have an active imagination yet another to participate in spiritual imagery; these are not the same. Just read Watchman's posts.
And to the person who cleared up the 31 day prayer in that it is a continual process...one 31 day segment after another, thanks. And you know, I guess this may sound elementary...but, I don't really need somebody, or a group to tell me how to pray for my pastor, or anyone else. This is something that if we are under the right pastor, we would be doing as Christians anyway...without a letter 'mailout' to tell us how. This really could be akin to an insult. Oh well...more of the changes I suppose.
Ima
Oh...and Padroc,
No, you are not missing anything.
Ima
Ima: I thought the exact same thing. It was kind of a "Duh" moment.
Southern Baptists and Occult Visualization:
Read all about it:
SOUTHERN BAPTISTS AND OCCULT VISUALIZATION MERGE
My mom read some to me this morning and I am just sick to my stomach. Do you REALLY need a guide to pray? I understand asking God to bring people to mind to remember to pray, but really, does Steve really need us to have a guide? And you're right, Mom4, it is ALWAYS ALL ABOUT STEVE! When Jamie Parker sings the song "it's all about You", I think Steve thinks the song is about him. Steve, try "You're so Vain" by Carly Simon - it will make you feel better.
By the way, my parents joined Ellendale Baptist Church and my husband and I are right behind them. BBC, it's been a nice ride for the last 30 years, but it's time to move on. I wish no ill will toward anyone there, but I hope they see the Light soon. Maybe they can visualize a Light - yeah, that's the ticket!
Let Us Reason Ministry has an excellent piece simply called "
visualization...
dont miss it.
VISUALIZATION
Ima...
Thank you for your most encouraging words and public support.God Bless You.
By the way Ima...
Ima one too !!!!
as you already knew...
: )))))
Last night, the new pastor at Ellendale gave a fantastic message. In the body of it, he stated that one of the most important characteristics an expositor of God's Word needs to have is humility. What a blessing it is to sit under this humble man of God!
Watchman...
I was pretty confident that I know who you are. What a blessing that you are with us on this blog.
When one has walked through the fire, it comes naturally to help others avoid it does it not. I like your phrase, "Ima one too"!
I was just listening to Bro. Jeff Noblit's radio broadcast this morning...how refreshing to know and hear men like him tell it like it is. Just like you do. You know we are attending his church now. A true church.
Thanks again for being here for the people on this blog...including myself!
Ima
watchman,
That website reminds me of the "Hale Bop Comet" cult that killed themselves in Rancho Santa Fe, CA (I lived in San Diego at the time). Remember, them? They were a bunch of wackos who thought they were "going home" on the tail of the Hale Bop Comet? They wore all black and put purple shrouds over themselves? But the website with the "visualization" article reminds me of the leader Applewhite's website. Just a funny memory!
Also, regarding David Coombs' letter, I think his choice of "visualize a bulls-eye on Steve's back" was in poor taste. Some nutjob could take that literally! Or maybe that's just my sick sense of humor! :)
A News Report from Roger Oakland of Understanding the Times…
email: roakland@aol.com
web: http://www.understandthetimes.org
An article I feel is so very relavent…it must be posted here. You can go to the website and find more there if you wish. The article goes into detail about the ceremony awarding this man the Congressional Medal of Honor, etc., etc.
The article by Roger Oakland:
October 17 - Dalai Lama's All Smiles as He Receives Congressional Gold Medal.
Comment from Understand The Times:
Understand The Times sends out news alerts to inform our newsletter recipients about current events that line up Bible Prophecy. This news alert is somewhat different. Today I experienced a news event first hand while in Washington D.C. Then I had one of my researchers find the news event online to post as an alert.
I am writing this from the Washington Dulles Airport on my way to London, England. I had a one day layover in Washington, spending some time with my wife Myrna while she was attending a work related conference. This morning I went with a friend to see the Smithsonian museum located at the Washington Mall. While there we walked towards the House of Congress where a large crowd was assembling. When I asked a security guard what was going on I was told that the Dalai Lama was soon to appear following a presentation of a Congressional award.
The sound of Tibetan chanting and whaling over the loud speakers confirmed that a ceremony was about to take place. A large sign posted the following message: "There can be no world peace without first obtaining inner peace."
While the secular media would never report what I am about to state, my perception is that this event has paramount significance in the spiritual realm. Last week a so- called "born-again" President stated that all religions pray to the same God. This week in front of the United States House of Congress, Tibetan monks were chanting to the gods and a "man of peace" who some say is God was being honored.
America is on the precipice of an unprecedented disaster and a spiritual judgment. A country supposedly founded on Christian principles has now openly abandoned the God of the Bible and is headed towards Babylonism.
Worse yet, people who profess to be "born-again" Christians, don't understand the significance of what is happening from a biblical perspective. The world is being prepared for a false peace and a false Christ. The Roman Catholic Church will soon have the solution to bring about this peace plan that will be ushered in by the Queen of Peace ("Mary") and her son the (Eucharistic Christ). It is amazing when governments of the world begin to bring this about.
Ima..
Precisely...
Thanks for that Roger Oakland warning..it is TRUTH
You know, I think something that is important to remember is that America will play a small part in the end times events. We are just not mentioned. I think we have to be equalized to some degree for some of those events to take place. It looks to me like some of that equalizing is happening now. I never would have thought it from our President, though. I pray we can elect someone to stand up for the Christian principles and values our country was founded on. If not, as my Daddy would say, we're in for a heap of a mess.
From Bob Dewaay's article:
I said at the beginning of this article that methods are not neutral. That much has been proved by the fact that the Bible forbids divination, a practice which involves innumerable possible methods. The other claim that "God can use anything," is misleading. That God could use something if He chose to does not mean that He will. It also does not mean that if He does use something it is a good thing. For example, God used Balaam to prophesy of Messiah, yet Balaam is condemned through Scriptures as a wicked person who led Israel astray (see Numbers 24:17 for Messianic prophesy; Balaam is condemned - 2 Peter 2:15; Jude I 1; Revelation 2:14). Balaam was a practitioner of divination, hired to curse Israel yet God chose to sovereignly use him to bless Israel instead. God may indeed use things He condemns, but that does not exonerate those who are thus used.
Concerned...
We ARE in for a heap of a mess! No doubt about it.
For this article to be linked to American go to the website. It does make the connection.
And for those in here that don't think that mysticism is relavent to BBC...you must remeber that we are talking RC mysticism. It is paganistic...mysticism is. It is all going universal...unity. Ecumenicalism.
If you are not saved...if you know of those who are not - this should be our utmost concern. And don't think that because somebody is sitting in the pews every Sunday that they are saved. Don't think the deacons are saved. Don't think that the pastor are saved. Get in the word...that is what we must do. We must look for Truth. And last but certainly not least...we must pray, continually.
And you must know this...everybody believes that they believe. That is the danger.
IMA,
Thank you for posting the Roger Oakland piece. I had just finished reading it in my email before I came to the blog, but I never thought about posting it here. I'm so glad you did.
Oakland is so right on this subject! And while it's very clear to some of us, there are still so many Christians who fail to see what is happening all around our planet and how it will all culminate in the fulfillment of the end-times prophecy of Scripture.
Our churches are continuing to fail us in the area of prophecy. Our preachers don’t preach it and our Bible teachers don’t teach it. Most of us who have a fairly good working knowledge of prophecy have had to root it out for ourselves. And it’s a difficult subject at best, but it’s such an important one, and one that brings such peace when correctly understood.
Tomorrow’s headlines cannot frighten us -- they do not come as a surprise, for we know the who, what and where – we just don’t know the when. But we rest in the calm assurance that Jesus does and that everything is right on time.
Mary
Watchman,
If I had just started reading this thread and had no idea of the recent history of BBC I would of thought that everyone on this blog and everyone on those videos were insane.
A little over a year ago I was getting non- chemical treatment for adhd. The stuff is rather cool and I got to know the neuropsychologist and he still is a great friend. Long story short, he started talking about an experimental treatment that uses magnets to stimulate certain parts of the brain. The idea is create the appropriate nuero networks that enable clearer thinking. Well, apparently if you place these magnets on certain regions of your brain you can have "religious like" experiences, one of which I had. It is pretty seductive. I started getting massive headaches and stopped the treatment.
This is real stuff and it is a bit scary.
Thanks for the links.
Peace
Watchman,
You've posted some great links. Thank you! Dave Hunt and Johanna Michaelson are excellent sources. I recently finished reading Hunt's "A Woman Rides The Beast," and I highly recommend it.
Mary
telos wrote:
"Well, apparently if you place these magnets on certain regions of your brain you can have 'religious like' experiences, one of which I had."
Whoa. I don't suppose it involved praying at the rock in the Garden of Gethsemane or a monk in a hooded robe, did it?
Ima, Thanks for posting the Oakland article. We must prepare our children to be discerning and pray for wisdom.
telos wrote:
"Well, apparently if you place these magnets on certain regions of your brain you can have 'religious like' experiences, one of which I had."
NASS wrote:
Whoa. I don't suppose it involved praying at the rock in the Garden of Gethsemane or a monk in a hooded robe, did it?
NASS,
It was really a benevolent experience, I suppose. My head and body tingled intensely all over - a feeling of euphoria manifested my entire being. Lucid thoughts of the Bible ran through my head with an intense, I suppose, quasi - interpretation of sanctification, associated with some verses of the Bible, attached to some of my recent life experiences.
Sounds strange, I know. If you want to know more about it - send and email and I will talk some more.
Peace
Nass,
You have mail.
To those of you thanking me for posting the Oakland article...no thanks neccesary. Roger Oakland is good and his website "Understanding the Times" ...the name does him justice. If you aren't registered to receive his emails, why don't you do that? He definitely stays up on the things of the world and how false teaching relates to the end times in it.
And...Watchman is very good. I have gotten a tremendous education from reading him.
Ima
NASS wrote:
Whoa. I don't suppose it involved praying at the rock in the Garden of Gethsemane or a monk in a hooded robe, did it?
telos wrote:
Nass, I learned this morning that the more you make a certain person feel insignificant the more he is inclined to become more self centered and controlling. As funny as you are - we would be better SERVED if we focused on day one of our prayer schedule: )
Shame on you for contributing to the self-centeredness of one of God's creatures. 0: )
I'll go flog myself now. :-(
Ima...
Thanks again !!!
I have one more incredibly important video I would like to share...
It is entitled NEW AGE ..Pathway to Paradise ?
It was a little seen video made over 20 years ago by a now defunct Christian Broadcasting station.
Yet it stands as one of the most compelling videos on the subject that has ever been produced...
See what I mean..and dont skip and flip through it...some parts are extremely revealing.
NEW AGE...PATHWAY TO PARADISE ?
Watchman...
Sure thing. He has nailed it hasn't he. Truth...
Ima
David Coombs is misguiding the sheep of Bellevue but should we be surprised? Is it possible for the leadership to make good decisions when there continues to be no repentance?
The latest Prayer Guide mailer is focused around Steve Gaines instead of Christ and His Church. Anyone who has called sin, sin has been accused of being used by the devil. In it, David Coombs said the following:
"Visualize this as you think about why daily intercession for our Pastor should be your responsibility and mine: imagine Bro. Steve with a huge bull's eye attached to his chest. He, like all Godly pastors, is a target of the devil's artillery."
This is what you get when you ordain a man from the secular business world who has never served on staff in any church, has never been to seminary, states that he doesn’t care what TN law says about church responsibilities in relation to its members, sees nothing wrong with letting Steve Gaines take $500,000 from Bellevue, sees nothing wrong with telling the sheep it’s none of their business how much the pastor makes, doesn’t see a need for bylaws, requires certain members to sign a covenant promising loyalty to Steve Gaines or else can't teach or coach, doesn’t have a problem with purchasing alcoholic beverage for his dinner party at a local restaurant, doesn’t see a problem with giving $25,000 to a church whose female pastor endorses homosexuality and abortion, and doesn’t have a deep heritage as a Southern Baptist outside his involvement at Bellevue.
I pray Southern Baptist Churches all over America are waking up to this leadership that is destroying the Southern Baptist Convention.
We need to pray for Dr. Page and other leaders to stand firmly against churches like Bellevue who have compromised the “Church” as they lead their sheep down the wrong road.
Watchman,
I hadn't read your 2:17 post when I posted my 2:21 post. :) Crossed up there. Anyway, I will watch this latest link about New Age. My 'he' in that last post was referring to Roger Oakland. :)
Ima
fog wrote:
"We need to pray for Dr. Page and other leaders to stand firmly against churches like Bellevue who have compromised the “Church” as they lead their sheep down the wrong road."
Unfortunately, much of the SBC leadership seems to be on the same page (no pun intended) as SG. "Touch not God's anointed and appointed," you know.
fbbcof and fog,
From what I can determine, the churches are under the 'lead' of the SBC...and that is what is wrong. It is not a matter that the SBC needs to help out; it is a matter that the SBC needs to repent itself! They are proponents of taking the churches the way of the culture. Take a look at Lifeway. For example...I have mentioned Madame Jeanne Guyon today on the blog-she is a mystic! Go to Lifeway and look her up. They have her books for sale. Now, explain to me why Lifeway would be selling the books of mystics? And Rick Warren, and Rob Bell, and Dan Kimbel, etc., etc., etc. Frank Page is at the helm.
Page ran on a platform of giving the small churches more say and not having the good old boys and mega's running the show. He quickly found out it is not that easy.
He is still out on the stump saying this, though. I went to hear him speak this summer and he is still saying the same thing.
Unfortuantly for him, you can't appease and go around saying peace peace when there is NO peace. About all he has done is to rebuke bloggers. I can understand why...they are making his job miserable pointing out all the high salaries, high living, corruption and abuse in the SBC.
Ima: Rick Warren is at Lifeway because he is the darling of the SBC.
*sigh*
ima,
I agree with you that the SBC needs to repent from the top down. A good place to start would be the seminaries, Lifeway, and the mega churches.
It certainly appears the big boys aren't interested I guess because they fear loosing their power and high paying salaries. The majority of churches in the SBC are 500 members and fewer. If we can organize, we can help change the SBC back in the direction it needs to be headed and there isn't much that can be done to stop it.
I believe all it takes is one man who is in a prominent position to do the right thing and he will actually be more respected than he could ever imagine. God usually takes one man and uses him mightily.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, GMOMMY!!!!
:-)
Ima,
I forgot to add that if a man did this, he would absolutely be attacked by the ones in power but he would end up being respected by the masses of people within the SBC across this nation.
concernedSBCer said...
"Ima: Rick Warren is at Lifeway because he is the darling of the SBC."
Right Concerned...AND because he is Rupert Murdoch's cash cow. :) Remember that Murdoch OWNS Zondervan! It ALWAYS winds up being about MONEY!!! ALWAYS...
fogmachine...
You could be right. Steve Gaines might even get the attention this would need. Isn't that sad. Sometimes though, I think it has gone too far. Sometimes I think it is God's will for the SBC to fall. Don't know...we must pray about it. I know of people who have pulled out of the SBC because of all this.
The best hope for redemption of the SBC was Bellevue and Adrian Rogers.
Another day has now dawned unfortunately.
It's Gmommy's Birthday!
Happy Birthday Gmommy!!!
I have to weigh in my two cents worth on something. Specifically, in the Steve Gaines Prayer Guide, Day 11, we see the word INTEGRITY.
Well, having some integrity would be a great start for the Senior Pastor of the once very conservative Bellevue Baptist Church. I would even add that we need to pray that the BBC staff and leadership would also someday regain some integrity!
Where do we begin…let’s see…I have an idea! I think everybody should call Scotty Shows, Minister of Recreation, and ask him why he dismissed some coaches who refused to sign both the Coaches Covenant and Leadership Covenant – as-is – with NO modifications. Yet, he allowed other coaches to coach teams throughout the soccer season…and…guess what...some coaches NEVER turned in both documents! Some turned them in WITH changes!! This is a fact!!!
Let’s face it. Integrity is nothing but a buzz word among the BBC staff and leadership. Hey, if the Senior Pastor doesn’t have to be held above reproach or to a higher standard, why should the other staff members and leaders have to? Scratch my back…and I’ll scratch yours.
Thankfully…the Bible is VERY clear about how church leaders are SUPPOSED to act.
Thankfully…there are other churches in the area who do have Pastors with a shepherd’s heart…and with discernment…and with integrity…and with a passion to serve God instead of a bunch of wealthy business men…and who walk the walk instead of just talking the talk.
The only hope for Bellevue, the SBC, or you and me is Jesus Christ...He's the only hope we've ever had, or ever will have. Until and unless He and He alone is truly all in all to us, it doesn't matter one whit who is at the helm of the SBC, or what the disposition of BBC is. As much as I admired him, Dr. R never saved a single soul and he didn't go to the cross...and he didn't save the SBC...God did...period.
AMEN.
"The only hope for Bellevue, the SBC, or you and me is Jesus Christ...He's the only hope we've ever had, or ever will have. Until and unless He and He alone is truly all in all to us, it doesn't matter one whit who is at the helm of the SBC, or what the disposition of BBC is. As much as I admired him, Dr. R never saved a single soul and he didn't go to the cross...and he didn't save the SBC...God did...period."
oc says:
Nor Calvin nor Arminius, nor any other preacher, teacher, or theologian; dead or alive. Let's remember that too.
Just sayin'.
oc.
AOG: AMEN. Good point. I wonder why we even care about the SBC anymore? I'm becoming more and more doubtful they care about me. More importantly, I'm doubtful they care about serving God and His sheep.
To me, the SBC has become to the Southern Baptist Churches what the Vatican is to the Roman Catholic Churches. I have even heard it referred to as the Vatican in Nashville. Have we forgotten that the churches are autonomous? It is what the churches are to the SBC...not what the SBC is to the churches. It has made an about face. The SBC could dissolve next week and the churches would still be standing. The churches do not depend on the SBC, or at least they don't have to and shouldn't...but the SBC does depend on the churches. But I have seen pastors that I think idolize the SBC and even the local associations. And where is Jesus in all of this? Is it really as it should be?
Willow Creek Repents?
Junk: This is HUGE. The marketing of the church may be proiven to be ineffectual since our spiritual lives are personal and individual. This should be very interesting to watch.
Yes...will be interesting to see what the fallout from this will be.
Thanks sweet blog friends,
After my tasty meal, I am smelling good, chilling on chocolate, and journaling all my "possibilities".
Thanks for being there:)
Junkster
Willow Creek has wed the world, the worlds ways, the worlds mysticism, the worlds rock music, the worlds theatre, the worlds relativism, the worlds values, and now dares to say, ooopsie ?? Our demographic reports say we might have made a mistake? I thought they were supposed to have been led by The Holy Spirit...not trying to make GODS Gospel into a man pleasing , unbiblical, non-seeker offensive counterfeit?
In addition, they now also now say,...God wants us to "transform " the world...
I would say after you modify and replace Gods gospel, blur and blend new age paraphrases with Gods Bible and arrogantly ignore Gods warning against worldliness and mysticism ... I would only have one question for Willow Creek....
Just which " god " are we to suppose you Creek leaders are talking about ?
Nighty....
Junk: Your 11:32 post was one of the most powerful I've seen. What a statement that is. The PLC/GCM/Willow Creek plan is SO worldly. The churches have worshipped the world to get people in. That's the big problem.
In the world but not of the world....
Judges, chap 6-9. Folks we have it all right here.
Gideon, Abimelech, 300 faithful men, people of Sechem.
1)Gideon- Dr. Rogers, valiant warrior fighting for the consevative resurgence and against spiritual darkness, principalities and powers. Pay close attention to what he said in 8:23 and what he did in 8:27. Is BBC the ephod? Let's ask Joyce Rogers.
2)300 faithful men- Deacons during Dr. Rogers tenure?
3)Abimelech-Steve Gaines. See especially 9:4-5. Does seventy pieces of silver = $500,000 in todays dollars? Then lets look at the 70 sons of Gideon. Could this be the loyal "sons" of Dr Rogers that Steve has "killed"?
4)GOD-9:23Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:
5)People of Sechem-That looks to be BBC members. 8:33And it came to pass, as soon as Gideon was dead, that the children of Israel turned again, and went a whoring after Baalim, and made Baalberith their god.34And the children of Israel remembered not the LORD their God, who had delivered them out of the hands of all their enemies on every side:35Neither shewed they kindness to the house of Jerubbaal, namely, Gideon, according to all the goodness which he had shewed unto Israel.
6)I think we can all agree that the fighting that followed, the "fire" coming from Abimelech and the men of Sechem bears a striking resemblence to the fighting at BBC these days. Then we have the folks holed up in the tower....bloggers? Millstone is the blog...and we all go our seperate ways....
Watchman...
Hahaha! Right!!! Just which one? It is almost like watching a game of musical chairs...or Russian roulet! Random chances/random choices...
I'd be aware of any new 'changes' coming out of Willow Creek. Do you think Warren will follow suit? You go to remember that Osteen has outnumbered them! These two guys are being outsmarted, whether by accident or whatever...they are still being ditched for Osteen and the great Lakewood. :)His books sales are soaring.
ima and concerned,
The jewel inside the SBC is the old "Southern Baptist Annuity Board" which was renamed to take the word Baptist out of it. This was done so they could market themselves to the rest of the world as money managers.
The renamed (2004) company GuideStone and its affiliates reported $10 billion in total organizational assets as of June 30, 2007.
Founded in Dallas in 1918 by the Southern Baptist Convention, GuideStone Financial Resources began operation as the Board of Ministerial Relief and Annuities. For several years its major ministry was distribution of relief funds for aged ministers, their widows and orphans. The work was initially funded by a $100,000 gift from the Baptist Sunday School Board. Later, nearly $1 million was contributed by industrialists John D. Rockefeller, and John D. Rockefeller, Jr.
For the first 30 years its role was to provide for the immediate needs of pastors and families seeking financial assistance and assisting others in their retirement needs by providing annuities.
In this our current state of global apostasy and compromise and deception, I desire most to be used of God to encourage the remnant Church.
The only way to encourage Gods Remnant Church is with the Holy Spirit of TRUTH and strong Biblical exhortation to come back to the true meaning of the cross, ongoing repentance and obedience, and to reject the modern day watering down and redefintion of GODS GOSPEL.
God has not left His Church without a bold lion to call His Church back to GODS GOSPEL and the truth of the cross and what really matters in this corrupt Church era.
I invite all of you to watch the full length video of missionary Paul Washer , who was not invited back after speaking this Holy Spirit inspired message to thousands of youth at a youth conference in 2002.
This message is simply the most compelling sermon I have ever heard preached by any one at any time and brings necessary Holy Spirit conviction and for many has brought contrite humility and the reminder to examine ourselves, we who say we are saved and that we know and love God. This is the " acid " test of all who claim to KNOW GOD. May God be Glorified.
The video link is here :
PAUL WASHERS SHOCKING TRUTHFUL MESSAGE TO THOUSANDS OF YOUTH BRINGS A DISINVITATION FROM MEN, BUT IS USED BY GOD MIGHTILY
Hey blog,
I have been getting such a charge from my Bible study recently, I had to share some of it with you.
We are in Acts, chapters 5,6,7. We have been studying how the early church was attacked from without and from within, and how they dealt with these attacks.
Example; when the Grecian Jews complained to the Hebraic Jews that their widows were being overlooked in the distribution of food, what did the apostles do?
Did they deny the problem? Did they tell the Grecians to leave if they didn't like the way things were being done? Did they accuse them of being trouble makers?
GET THIS: They addressed the problem, right then. They appointed wise and SPRIIT FILLED, primarily GRECIAN disciples to oversee this work. The apostles laid hands on then and prayed over them. PROBLEM SOLVED and the church continues to grow.
This study has been so encouraging to me, I've wanted to shout YES during our lecture. In fact I did shout it -- from my mousehead to God -- so as not to disturb others.
Ima..
There is no understanding Willow or Warren or Politicians of any strioe, unless one understands that these are chameleons with no conscience, who for filthy lucre and power will say and do anyhting in order to cull a larger following and bulgier pocketbook.
Money and power and fully seared consciences that allow them to transform themselves randomly and on a dime are their only passion and love. Naked emperors with no clothes, but witl large followings of those who did not recieve a love of THE TRUTH.
I think I should stop praying in Jesus's name and start praying in Steve's name.
concerned...
Notice one huge elephant missing in Hybels statement...
Hybels says it was a MISTAKE
GOD CALLS IT evil compromise and making the church an enemy of god by embracing the world.
Desecrating GODS CHURCH is
ARROGANT VIRULENT HORRIFIC SIN...
not a " demographic oopsie, or " SIMPLE mistake"
No hope for such confusion and self-justifying. Save ONE
Complete and utter and total REPENTANCE AND ADMISSION OF SIN AGAINST GOD AND HIS CHURCH.
I see no no such recognition in that article, I see ambition arrogance and ongoing deluded self determination.
oc said..
""The only hope for Bellevue, the SBC, or you and me is Jesus Christ...He's the only hope we've ever had, or ever will have. Until and unless He and He alone is truly all in all to us, it doesn't matter one whit who is at the helm of the SBC, or what the disposition of BBC is. As much as I admired him, Dr. R never saved a single soul and he didn't go to the cross...and he didn't save the SBC...God did...period."
And I agree, and so would Dr Rogers. The difference is that Dr Rogers was willing to make a stand for the Church, the Word and the Gospel. The men who walked away from Bellevue without a fight were cowards who thought more of themselves and their spiritual comfort than what Dr Rogers taught all those years. One man even told me, "well, what could we do, the rich men have all the power and there are not enough men to make a difference, so we took our family and left".
I'll tell you (men) what you SHOULD have done, made a stand, even if you thought you were all alone! There were a handful of men who consistantly made substantial efforts, but they had no men of integrity standing behind them because they "walked away", tail between their legs and heads drooping. Some powerful men walked away without a second thought because they didn't want to fight for the Lord's church.
I just don't understand WHY the church Dr and Mrs Rogers and other poured their lives into was not worth fighting for. BBC wasn't build by the likes of Steve Gaines or David Coombs, let alone Mark Dougharty. It was built by a Holy God who used Men of God to build it.
Where are those men today? At other churches where I pray they will grow a "Godly Spine".
concernedSBCer said...
Junk: Your 11:32 post was one of the most powerful I've seen.
Actually, that was watchman. :)
My apologies to Watchman and Junk. Amazing post, Watchman!
Hi 32+,
Thank you for your comment. No, neither was I referring to the bull's eye on SG's person as mysticism...I was responding to a comment Larry had made. Sorry if I wasn't clear. There is a huge difference in mysticism and our mind's eye. As you well know.
And let me add...I have done a great deal of research and have been involved personally in these things as you know. However, that makes me nothing. I know no more than anybody else. I love the people on this blog deeply and find that they are well educated on the things going on in the churches today. We are all in this together. And God willing, we will overcome it. The other end of this spectrum is that the rapture is near. Either way, we win.
Concerned:
God Bless you ....your words are an encouragement, may GOD and HIS TRUTH SHINE BRIGHT.
Watchman,
That is a tremendous sermon. You can get the DVD from Heartcry for just a nominal fee...shipping and handling really. I get them and give them away. This sermon is that incredible. I gave one to a friend who was, and I say 'was', a youth minister and it was shown to the youth group. They got upset because it wasn't entertainment as usual. These young people got upseet because Washer said some on them weren't saved. The youth minister lost his job because he stood up for Truth. Most people I have given it to are just stunned by the Truth presented in it. I am glad you have posted it here.
I must tell you that I am blessed...I am attending the church that Paul Washer is a member of. Occassionally, he fills the pulpit. I have met him and he is probably the most humble person I have ever met. His presence presents an aura I can't even explain.
I don't know how many of you would remember a radio preacher and revivalist of days gone by, but I heard Dr. Oliver B. Greene in one of his last meetings and of course on his radio program many times.
He made an interesting observation that kinda haunts me from time to time. He said that the older he got the more difficult it was to stand firm against sin.
I think many times I can relate. I certainly want to 'read' the times and I believe God meets people where they are, but sometimes there are no easy answers.
Thanks for the seasoned and reasoned voices on this blog.
May we all be found faithful.
What is guided imagery? Look it up and be sure.
Is guided imagery mysticism?
It's not the 'bull's eye'. It's the process. Get this picture in your mind. Not what the Holy Spirit puts there, but what David Coombs is suggesting. Why? To focus your prayers in a certain way.
You may disagree. My spirit has a check, here. I will not be participating in this way.
eprov,
I have studied Dr Greene and have one of his books. He and a man named Lester Roloff (whose sermons can still be heard on some TN stations), are both worthy of our attention. I guess I need to pull that book out off the shelf and brush up on his theology.
Thanks for the remembrance.
Churchmouse
Precisely... It is THE PROCESS...
The technique...the call to "IMAGE " something in order to acheive a result.
Calling Christians to image in their mind what a letter writer directs ..is called Divination..Guided imagery...
One thing is for sure based on GODS WORD...
It is not BIBLICAL FAITH .. since FAITH is the evidence of things NOT SEEN . iMAGING IS A TECHNIQUE..A PROCESS ..AND THAT process IS called "divination".
Expressly forbidden in Deuteronomy as being part of what those nations and people do that are an abomination to the LORD.
The call to use ones imagination as a enhancement or power tool for a desired outcome has been practiced by witches and neo pagans for millenia.
CHRISTIANS SHOULD BE WARNED AGAINST USING PROCESSES OF VISUALIZATION, NOT BE ENCOURAGED TO UTILIZE THESE THINGS.
Eprov...
You know me...I had to look up your Oliver B. Greene. I had never heard of him. The first thing I found was a sermon of his entitled, "Unpopular Preacher". Now how about that one for references? :) It is taken from Luke 6; 22,23 which reads:
"Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven, for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets."
I read the first three paragraphs and decided to print it. I am about to go into another room and sit down to read it. I wanted to share this sermon with you:
Unpopular Preachers by Oliver B. Greene
I did take note that he is a fundamentalist. Just FYI.
The only hope for Bellevue, the SBC, or you and me is Jesus Christ...He's the only hope we've ever had, or ever will have. Until and unless He and He alone is truly all in all to us, it doesn't matter one whit who is at the helm of the SBC, or what the disposition of BBC is. As much as I admired him, Dr. R never saved a single soul and he didn't go to the cross...and he didn't save the SBC...God did...period.
Amen!!!
(Incidently, my apologies to anyone waiting for replies from me on the previous thread. I had a minor laptop accident... spilled some hot, sticky apple cider on my keyboard, which put me out of commission for a bit. :)
Watchman,
If anyone needed clarification on this, your post of 11:22am certainly could do it for them. It is no wonder there are such questions on this subject...who would have ever thought people would be being directed to do this from their churches? It is frightful!
AOG: AMEN. Good point. I wonder why we even care about the SBC anymore? I'm becoming more and more doubtful they care about me. More importantly, I'm doubtful they care about serving God and His sheep.
Please don't lose hope concerned...
Rest assured there are still many godly men who are in the SBC, and even those who genuinely care about the body of Christ. They are not our hope, like AOG said, Jesus is, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. :)
Socwork said:
Rest assured there are still many godly men who are in the SBC, and even those who genuinely care about the body of Christ. They are not our hope, like AOG said, Jesus is, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.
oc says:
OK, but I'm getting discouraged with the SBC too. I'm wondering, after being loyal to the SBC all these years, what their purpose is anymore, and what benefit is derived from them. It's getting to the point that I don't know which is dirtiest and therefore which one to throw out: the baby, or the bath water.
I'm honestly askin'.
oc.
Interesting link on Willow Creek, Junk.
One clue that they STILL do not get it is to check out the line up of speakers at their Leadership Summit's.
This whole thing is more about maxing out than anything else. Mega's...the older ones... are right now trying to redefine themselves. Some are doing satellite campi, come are absorbing other churches...the list goes on.
My big question: How do they define spiritual maturity?
"He made an interesting observation that kinda haunts me from time to time. He said that the older he got the more difficult it was to stand firm against sin. "
Eprov, interesting point. Could it be as we mature spiritually, our concept of what is sin really changes? And we are laid bare to how totally depraved we really are because the Holy Spirit in us keeps us from being desensitized to sin...it is almost like having a sin radar installed?
Soc: Thanks for the encouragement. I guess I was having a BMHOTK moment.
A servant spirit, a call to answer......these seem to be endangered. But I'm so thankful to know they are not extinct.
:-)
"...spilled some hot, sticky apple cider on my keyboard, which put me out of commission for a bit. :)"
Now that is nasty and sticky. You always get one key that sttttticks or wn't wrk. :o)
socwork said
(Incidently, my apologies to anyone waiting for replies from me on the previous thread. I had a minor laptop accident... spilled some hot, sticky apple cider on my keyboard, which put me out of commission for a bit. :)
Reply,
Sorry about your laptop. Did you know that coffee on a keyboard will do the same trick? Yup!
I don't doubt that there are fine dedicated Southern Baptists ministers. But why should we have ANY confidence in the SBC????
They say they have no authority or responsibilities to the individual churches or ministers.
They seem to HAVE power when it comes to deciding about missionaries, how money is spent, dictating what Baptist are to believe. They seem to keep their pals employed even when they sin and break the law.
Did any of them come to the defense of MS when he spoke his opinions based on scripture about the PW issue?
Did anyone pull any of their "standards" out from the SBC concerning SG???PW????
NO, but they use their power and control when it benefits them.
NOT for the good of all or even many....but just for the power and control in general.
Look at how BS handled the Claude stuff....and he was right in the middle of all the SBC stuff. Mark D is back in the game with the organization.
This is as corrupt and twisted as politics.
Have you read Christa's post and the comment from the woman intimidated, overwhelmed, and abused by ministers that people at the SBC KNOW are predators?????
Do we just HAVE to follow the leader and have people over us that have no accountability but all the power....WHEN it is convienient.
Shoot...the SBC is in bed with Lifeway and whoever else and making major bucks and what are they doing that HELPS the SBC churches and ministers and church members????
Page Patterson saying that he likes women and everyone should have one is repulsive.
The fact that none of the so called godly men go to the defense of the helpless and innocent and have pervert gang ups on trusting women is beyond repulsive.
Why should PP be able to wreck a families life and another SBC leader come in and lay down expectations for personal family planning??
BUT then never get involved in other IMPORTANT issues?
All of theses realizations are enough to keep people from ever participating in churches again. I know MANY people that AREN'T.
No one in the leadership of the SBC wants to let go of the grip of control. Not when it benefits them so much.
Story here (don't miss the comments section) and some background here.
Reading the Ethics daily link that Nass provided reminded me of the very first question I was asked by the bogus "investigative board" rep for BBC.
This is as close to a quote as I can get since it has almost been a full year...the question was "when did you begin your relationship with Paul Williams?"
I replied "I never HAD A RELATIONSHIP" with this man. BUt what a calculated question.
Not very far from PW's first question....under the premise of discussing scripture being taught in the SS class somehow.....
gain control and get the person off balance wuth that first authoritative question!!!!!!
(Concerning the scripture on abundant life)...."what age were you the first time you experienced sex"????
But it's all about protecting Stevie boy from that big bulls eye on his back.... huh?
just banging my head against the bricks and longing for Walton's Mountain.....
And, frankly, devastation of a massive proportion occurs in churches where there is a breakdown of confidence, trust, love, affection between shepherds and sheep. When integrity goes and credibility goes and confidence goes and trust goes and love goes and affection goes, at the point of that relationship you have devastated the life of that church. - John MacArthur
gmommy said...
I don't doubt that there are fine dedicated Southern Baptists ministers. But why should we have ANY confidence in the SBC????
Lynn's Response:
The SBC is so misguided that what they plan on doing in the 08 Election will result in HILLARY CLINTON being elected. That is, if the republicans don't field a strong social conservative, they're going to back a 3rd party. Just like in 1992 with Perot.
Now that is nasty and sticky. You always get one key that sttttticks or wn't wrk. :o)
Yeah, no kidding! I ended up going to Office Depot to get another keyboard to plug into a USB port.
Sorry about your laptop. Did you know that coffee on a keyboard will do the same trick? Yup!
Hm... haven't tried that. I wonder if the coffee would counteract the apple cider if I poured it on my laptop next? Well, it's too late for coffee tonight, so maybe in the morning.
Soc: Thanks for the encouragement. I guess I was having a BMHOTK moment.
A servant spirit, a call to answer......these seem to be endangered. But I'm so thankful to know they are not extinct.
Yes, that's a good way to put it :) "Endangered, but not extinct."
OK, but I'm getting discouraged with the SBC too. I'm wondering, after being loyal to the SBC all these years, what their purpose is anymore, and what benefit is derived from them. It's getting to the point that I don't know which is dirtiest and therefore which one to throw out: the baby, or the bath water.
I would say that discouragement is understandable, especially given what you've just been through (or are still going through) with Bellevue, a prominent church in the SBC.
There's no perfect denomination (or non-denomination). We are sinners. That is not an excuse for a lot of the behavior that we discuss on this blog, but it can certainly help us remember that we are not going to find perfection this side of heaven. That doesn't mean we should just abandon ship. (I would say there is definitely a time to abandon certain ships... like BBC for example, but BBC does not represent every SBC church out there by any means.)
Does anybody know of a church like this in the Memphis area? Texas is a tad bit far to drive...
http://www.gracefamilybaptist.net/What%20is%20an%20FIC.html
Socwork,
forget your keyboard, where's my car? :)
tn_lizzie,
How much did you poke around in that site? Did you read this? BTW, the pastor/senior elder (or whatever his title is), Voddie Baucham, has preached at BBC at least twice in the past couple of years.
The FIC thing has merit. I found some of the other things kind of scary.
Did you notice their Sunday services last four hours?
Hmm. I didn't scour every page. I see the problems you saw on the page you linked. Don't know what to think about that! :o(
WHERE did you find the hours of their Sunday services? All I saw was that they are currently meeting at a Seventh Day Adventist Church. The home page gives the address and just says, "Join us at 10:45 am each Sunday." I saw where they have no Sunday School or Nursery, but they have a Fellowship potluck meal every Sunday. Yum!
There seems to be much in place there that looks so good Biblically (and so different from BBC, both as I've known it and what it's becoming.) I wonder if Voddie would come back to Preach at Bellevue now? (He says he's a Preacher, Speakers come from Radio Shack!)
Here.
Q. What is a typical GFBC Sunday morning service like?
A. We begin gathering at 10:30. From 10:30 to 10:45 our people fellowship in the foyer. We greet one another and welcome our guests. At 10:45 we move into the sanctuary (the gym) to begin our service. We begin with prayer and confession. After our prayer time, one of our young men will lead in our responsive reading (questions from the catechism, one of the historic creeds, etc.), then we sing our opening song.
After our opening song (we use a variety of songs, but mostly hymns with a smattering of newer songs, all chosen based on theological content, not style), we have New Testament reading. Then a couple more songs and our Old Testament reading. After that, we will sing another couple of songs before pastoral prayer and the sermon.
After the sermon we take we have a time of family prayer and confession. This is a time to prepare our hearts before we partake of the Lord’s supper (every week). We also bring our gifts to the offering table and each family will pray over the offering. Then we take the Lord’s Supper (open to all baptized believers in good standing with their local church).
After the Lord’s Supper, we fellowship while the kitchen is prepared, then we share a fellowship meal. During this time, children play, Older women teach our younger women, Older men teach our younger men (all through informal discussion and Q&A). We also answer questions from visitors. Then, around 2:30, we try to make everyone go home (one of the most difficult tasks for our elders).
From that same page:
"Moreover, we believe it is important for children to worship with their parents, and to be taught how to sit through the service."
Now, this is something with which I wholeheartedly agree. That's one thing about the worship services at BBC that strikes me -- the lack of children.
Nass and Lizzie,
With regard to the "Place at the Table" blog......while it creeps me out that they seem to be so awed to be in the prescence of some of those people (that we know are PDL, etc.)I thought it positive that they introduced a different way based more on scriptural principles from the church in Acts. Voddie Baucham has many good points and hearing him preach is a pleasure. He really understands the importance (and degeneration) of our families. I thought the Sunday schedule seemed appropriate. Look at it this way....the Sunday morning/Sunday night/Wednesday night SBC schedule is hard sometimes....it's hard on families. That's the whole week wrapped into one service. I liked the point of the men and women mentoring during this time too.
The point I like the best is the whole lack of "respect" for youth. I am one of the very few who think youth groups do more to damage the family than to help it. For example, what do youth groups do every times kids are out of school? Take them on a trip.....so, kids are in school every day, then when time is available for family time, trips are scheduled. Think Christmas (oops, sorry.....Winter) Break, Spring Break, Fall break and summer......kids can be gone every week if they want to and can afford it. And take them out of worship with their parents.....the youth sit together. It obviously isn't working because statistics show youth leave the faith in huge percentages in college. Many come back (along about the time they have kids!) but quite a few never come back. Youth pastors come and go, but families are a constant. We need to be building family relationships, not minimizing them.
I would have loved a church with a schedule like this.....
Off of soapbox......
Regarding my previous post: I realize my thought will sound completely weird to some, but seriously, think about it. Parents are supposed to be the spiritual teachers and leaders to their children. It seems to me many parents hand off that responsibility to the church. As we have found out......you can't trust that plan to always work. Families should enjoy being together, should have time to truly mentor their kids, and parents should place an importance to real time spent with their kids.
*gasp*
Concernedsbcer said:
Regarding my previous post: I realize my thought will sound completely weird to some, but seriously, think about it. Parents are supposed to be the spiritual teachers and leaders to their children. It seems to me many parents hand off that responsibility to the church. As we have found out......you can't trust that plan to always work. Families should enjoy being together, should have time to truly mentor their kids, and parents should place an importance to real time spent with their kids.
oc says:
AMEN. It feels comfortable to hand your kids over to the church. After all, what better hands could they be in? Well,... yours. It has been my experience, in knowing several youth pastors/ministers, that spiritual maturity is not a priority for many of those who would spend time with your kids.
What seems to be important is that the youth minister be 'likeable'.
Often it is how he keeps his job. That often means no discipline, shallow study of the Scripture, nothing of the shame of confession and the agony of repentence for sinning against a Holy God, and none of the pain of perseverence that aims towards a Christ-like life.
But know what parent? That was never the sole responsibility of the youth minister, or the church in the first place. It was always yours, from day one of the kid's life. God ordained. It's your job. Do it.
Rant over.
oc.
Concerned
You are not wierd, you are wise.
Do you remember your childhood and the time you spent in church with your family? I do, too.
I remember sitting with my mother and being taken out on the church steps more than one time. I remember rubbing the skin off my nose peeping over the top of a hymnal - at a little boy named Billy Ray. (at age 4) I remember my Granddad making me sit next to him as a preteen, and then totally loosing it during the invitational hymn, as a big yellow grasshopper landed on the shoulder of the man in front of me and began to sing along.(My Granddad didn't notice.)
These memories are priceless to me, but more priceless is the fact that I came to know and love Jesus during that time. It made me the person I am, today -- an old sinner saved by grace.
ConcernedSBCer,
I agree with you!!!
My daughter was involved in everything and I don't remember her complaining about the youth activities (other than when she went on choir tour with JP and interned one summer)
BUT as soon as she went away to college, she sought out something more...RM and the others had a cow but many of the very committeed kids in her age group are no longer involved in an SBC church.
When I went thru the same time with my son, he told me how "lame and shallow" the youth group was so we decided he would use that time to serve in the Joy class....which was a blessing!
I mentioned the teen I was spending time with a week ago.
She is being dropped off for the youth activities INSTEAD of family time, family training, (altho not for a lack of Christian books at home) and in our talks she expressed alot of insight about the worldliness and lack of depth in the youth activities.
Mostly I just saw how in need she was for real time and committment from her parents. She is exhausted and needs to be home and nurtured there.
SO I not only agree with you but consider you an expert in the area of building a strong family.
I wish you and I would have been close during the years before my son went to college....I would do alot of things differently looking back now.
Am being so blessed by your precious daughter's blog!!!
churchmouse wrote:
"I remember sitting with my mother and being taken out on the church steps more than one time."
Remember "THE LOOK"?! That's usually all it would take. ;-(
Oh, yes, the "lOOk!" By that time, it was almost too late. You know you were going to slip up, again.
"The SBC is so misguided that what they plan on doing in the 08 Election will result in HILLARY CLINTON being elected."
Argh, I hope not. And I'm a liberal.
I don't think the Republicans will be reduced to 3rd party status, even if they get creamed next year.
New talking points on Fox News Network:
Polls indicate that there is a new religious right voting in this election. Thanks to the influence of Pastor Rick Warren, the number one issue with them is no longer abortion, but humanitarian aid. This is credited to Warren's push to help fight AIDS. (I don't remember the exact wording, here.)
If you do a google search for Rick Warren influence on right wing voters - or something more concise, you will find more along this line.
Former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee (or Huckleberry, as Ann Colter calls him) is a strong pro-life candidate, but also a Rick Warren groupie.
Now what?
Churchmouse: Having dealt with Huckabee in Ark, I'd have to say he's not my favorite.
HUMANITARIAN AID is more important than stopping the slaughter of innocent babies??????? I agree they are both important, but.....
Okay, I get it. No one thinks about abortion anymore. It's easier to look past it when you ignore it.
Grrrrrr......
Churchmouse...
I just get sicker by the minute...
Re: Hillary
Awww, cmon ya'll.....and all my fellow feminists...
I have a HIllary bumpter sticker on my front bumper...this is what it says:
RUN, HILLARY, RUN
republicans apply to front bumper and democrats to back bumper
) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
SOTL: I want one!!!!
32yrs@bbc said...
FROM A PURPOSE DRIVEN REFUGEE
We attended Rick Warren's Saddleback Church for a little over five years and we also ended up leaving in order to seek some Spiritual growth in our lives. We found that the Church was skilled in attracting new sheep however the ministries and classes offered were not designed to accommodate any real growth or depth. The smaller churches around Saddleback actually benefited from the Church because they knew that the mature Christians would eventually find a way out of the fluff towards a more fulfilling experience.
Telos said:
Kind of like milk to meat?
Eprov, IMA and others,
I remember Dr. Oliver B. Greene with great love and gratitude. He was the first man on planet earth who cared for my soul! Oliver B. Greene was the man God used to turn my life around -- from repentance of my own sin nature, and from a two year struggle with Roman Catholicism, all the way to a saving faith in Jesus Christ. I learned much of my theology from this man and it has withstood the test of time.
I got to know Preacher Greene (as he preferred to be called) while working with him on a book project. I was very impressed with his honesty and his gentleness of spirit -- a spirit that truly lived to answer God’s calling for lost souls to come to Jesus. He was as humble a servant of God as I have ever known and he was unbending on the Word of God. He had a great heart for the lost, but he loved Jesus more, and that left no room for compromise. And to my knowledge, he never did.
Greene was an independent fundamentalist Baptist, but in his day the term fundamentalist didn’t carry the somewhat negative connotation that it does today. I did a quick scan of The Gospel Hour website and I must say that in his lifetime, Oliver B. Greene did not align himself with many of those who are now claiming to ride his coattails, and who are doing so apparently with the permission of his son who seems to be running the ministry now. I would ask you to please use discernment and allow Greene’s own writings and his taped sermons to speak for his beliefs rather than what others may now say about him.
While he adored his family and was a good husband and father, he left little doubt that his primary purpose on this earth was to preach the Gospel. Greene wasn’t interested in fame or the praise of men, nor was he concerned with bringing in great crowds. His focus was on the individual soul who was nearest hell.
Greene was no fan of modernity, even in the 1950’s and ‘60’s. He believed that Hollywood was of the devil and movies were sinful. He would not allow a television in his home. He lived simply and with no visible evidence of greed. His book royalties went to sustaining his radio ministry and procuring new stations. By his own testimony, he was “a reformed drunkard, saved from disgrace to grace,” and he preached hard against beverage alcohol.
His preaching style -- and I dare say, his theology -- was quite similar to that of Dr. R. G. Lee. Greene would occasionally quote Spurgeon, Billy Sunday, R. A. Torrey, C. I. Scofield, Dwight L. Moody, Henry Ironside and a few others, but he was known for reading straight from his 1611 KJ and preaching with, “Thus saith the Lord… “
He was a strong advocate of the 1611 King James, believing it to be the inerrant, inspired Word of God, and he was strong in his criticism of the newer versions of his day. Most notably, I remember him comparing and contrasting the KJV with the Revised Standard Version. Changes in the text that are commonplace today were of major significance in the 1950’s, and Greene believed the newer version were blasphemy that “tampered” with the Word of God.
I own most of Greene’s books and commentaries but I confess that I haven’t read them in years. But that’s changing – I’m going to dust them off and begin reading, and I’m sure I’ll shed many tears over how far I have changed and modernized down through the years. I've got a lot of reading, and I'm sure, repenting, to do. I pray for God’s mercy.
If anyone would like to read Greene and don’t know where to begin, I would suggest starting with these: ”Eternal Life,” “Our Great Salvation,” “Heaven,” “The Face of Jesus,” and ”What Think Ye of Christ.”
The only mp3 of Greene that I can find online is HERE.
Blessings,
Mary
Hey folks. I ran across this sermon today. It is worth a listen! It is all about the strength of the WORD, what we should do when we encounter apostacy in the church (pick up the Sword).
It talks of division in the church and why it occurs. Not very flattering of Billy Graham...If you have the time give it a listen....
Apostacy
To hear all this talk about "prayer" is frustrating, as when Adrian was in the hospital and Steve was in the pulpit, where was all this talk about "prayer" then?
Has anyone seen the new Wednesday night's "Call to Prayer" the last few weeks?
Read some of the quotes:
"Pray that the PRIDE (emphasis added) of being Bellevue will be cleansed by the precious blood of Jesus that was shed and allows no room for ARROGANCE (emphasis added) as to personality, position, or possession."
"Praise God for the outpouring of His Spirit this past Sunday (Oct
7th)as many moved forward making professions of faith in Christ, moving their membership in order to part of a GROWING (emphasis added) church, and making other life-changing decisions."
"We cannot fully experience the love of God in isolation. If we have a passion to experience the love of Christ in ALL (emphasis added) its fullness, we MUST (emphasis added) be UNITED (emphasis added) with other believers. It is not a OPTION (emphasis added) -- it is imperative.
Gopher: It's hard to believe that was all written for the world to see. It seems so self-serving.
By the way, the sermon is not flattering at all of the "new methods" of building the church. The only way to build the church is through preaching of the WORD. Trendy commercials won't do it.
I was also struck by the lack of mention of prayer in the sermon....
32 years said:
During those days when all knew
Dr. R was critically ill, I was puzzled and dismayed that we were not called as a church body to pray for him. I could not understand it at the time. I also
was puzzled and dismayed that any time I mentioned Dr. R's name (not to compare; just in sweet remembrance) during that time and the months after his death, I was
accused of hanging on to the past and not embracing the new pastor.
I did not understand then but I do now - to my dismay.
**********
Sotl's response:
32...
I know EXACTLY what you mean..it has become politically incorrect at BBC to even mention the name of our sweet pastor, Dr. Adrian Rogers....They have been brainwashed ( not EVERYONE) to think that to mention Dr. R. is to diss SG...This is a cult-like mentality, in my opinion.
Not EVERYONE at BBC feels that way, but I have noticed that when I run into a " ring kisser" out and about town, the subject is always changed if I mention AR..it's as though they feel they are being disloyal to SG if they so much as acknowledge that there was a pastor before him. I have noticed that this has happened on several occasions...now when I run into ring kissers, I intentionally bring up AR just to see if they will change the subject, and, they do.
::: shrugging shoulders::: go figure
Ez, did you read the pastors bio of the sermon you linked?
"Dr. Ian Richard Kyle Paisley, the son of a godly Baptist pastor, is a controversial but effective politician and has held seats for more than twenty years in the British and European Parliaments; he is also the Moderator of the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster and Minister of the Martyrs Memorial Free Presbyterian Church in Belfast, Northern Ireland. Not only is he known for his oratorical skills in pulpits throughout the world, on the political platforms or in the State Parliament, he is also prolific with his pen and has authored many books and pamphlets"
I am blown away that he was preaching like this in Belfast. My goodness. Now, here is a guy who probably had a HUGE target on his back from the papists.
sotl,32,et al,
Even during Dr Rogers' last days in the hospital, the majority of the staff at BBC was in the dark, not made aware how serious he was. Praise God that His Holy Spirit still prompted and compelled His children to pray for their pastor emeritus, regardless of the leadership's efforts to squelch even the slightest mention of his name.
After what I heard on tv this morning (as I was getting ready to go to real church), the Adrian P Rogers Parkway signs will be gone soon as well as the portraits in the fellowship (little "f") hall. Just you wait and see!
SICKIE: You know what, that is a horrifying thought -- Dr. Rogers was suffering and there was no call for prayer. I am sick at the THOUGHT of that. But you know what? If DR. GAINES wants to be quoted, why doesn't he step up and give us something we can use? RIGHT? I mean I would hate to quote him and then have him deny it huh? I guess we could quote, What? Tirades on himself?
Went to FBC today. I am in awe of the spirit there. It was so GREAT to see some familiar faces! My healing has begun at FBC, we will go to their info-dinner Tuesday night and go from there. What a sweet Pastor! THANKS TO GOD AND FBC!!!
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