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- New BBC Open Forum
- This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church and the SBC can come to comment and exchange ideas. Anonymous comments are welcome, but it is respectfully requested that instead of choosing the "Anonymous" option those who want to post comments without logging in select a unique screen name. This lets everyone tell the difference between one anon and another without revealing any personal information. Under the box where you compose your comment where it says "Choose an identity," just check "Name/URL" and type in the screen name of your choice. You can leave the URL field blank. It would be helpful if you'd use the same screen name for any subsequent comments. This makes reading and following discussions easier, helps avoid confusion, and doesn't result in one person being credited for writing something s/he didn't. Comments by posters whose only purpose is to disrupt (i.e. trolls) will be subject to deletion. Your cooperation will be appreciated.
626 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 626 Newer› Newest»lin....
I heard Ian Paisley at BJU several years ago and he is a BIG guy in addition to his booming voice. He referred to the Pope as 'red socks' among some other daring words! LOL
But his sermon was soul challenging.
He told about his early tenure at the church and how the crowds had dwindled to almost nothing because of his stand for righteousness. One Sunday night he opened all the doors and windows and preached from the text - "Will ye also go away?"
That was the beginning of a revival in the church.
He is one of those memories that stays with you forever.
mom4,
What's this about the Parkway signs? Isn't that a city or county decision if they will be put up or removed? Please fill in the details on that one - sounds important.
karen
It is such hypocrisy for the BBC leadership to have put the Steve Gaines Prayer Guide together, let alone go to the expense of mailing the document! What about repentance – true repentance by SG and the leadership of Bellevue?
I am all for prayer, and I agree that we should continue to pray for BBC, SG, the BBC staff, leadership, and congregation. I also believe that for there to be healing, there MUST be true repentance…starting with SG. So far, that has not occurred…and it sure looks doubtful that it will happen any time in the near future.
On a different note, my family and I went to FBC this morning. What a message!! The Pastor preached the true gospel…not a watered down version.
Their FBC orchestra was awesome! There were several musicians who played the special music during the offertory at FBC this morning. I recognized 2 trumpet players and 2 saxophone players who all used to be regulars in the BBC orchestra. My family and I also enjoyed fellowshipping with many – MANY – former (and some still current) BBC members before church, during Sunday School, and after church this morning.
God is at work. Bellevue is no longer the Bellevue of old. It is more of an empty suit, so to speak. Nice building, pretty furniture, nice rooms, good recreation facilities…but no integrity, no humility, and no true repentance. It is as if God is relocating His church to FBC, GBC, and many other churches in the Memphis area.
Why would the city remove the signs? Is there any way that can be stopped?
Okay, let's not start any unfounded rumors! I don't know that anyone is talking about removing the APR signs from along Appling or from the bridge. I think that was simply one of those "I wouldn't be surprised if" statements.
If you have questions about it, you might check with:
Planning & Zoning Committee
Chairman, Myron Lowery
myron.lowery@memphistn.gov
(901) 521-4300
Mom4 said...
"After what I heard on tv this morning (as I was getting ready to go to real church), the Adrian P Rogers Parkway signs will be gone soon as well as the portraits in the fellowship (little "f") hall. Just you wait and see!"
This was hypothetical speak relating to the sermon that SG was preaching this morning on TV. He was talking about his empire, so to speak. I was just thinking out loud, sorry for the confusion it may have caused.
32yrs@bbc said...
"Even during Dr Rogers' last days in the hospital, the majority of the staff at BBC was in the dark, not made aware how serious he was."
----------------------------------
I don't know why the staff was in the dark because everyone I knew was very aware of how critical he was.
You will find this refreshing: the vote for the new pastor at
GBC will be by ballot - not standing vote. And this will be after members not only hear him preach but have the opport. to meet and talk with him and his family on Sat. Also members with any questions are encouraged to contact Search Committee members this week before meeting Dr. Kitchings, and before the vote. :-)
6:46 PM, October 21, 2007
Ellendale did it that way as well. Apparently Bellevue didn't get the memo.
32yrs@bbc said...
"Even during Dr Rogers' last days in the hospital, the majority of the staff at BBC was in the dark, not made aware how serious he was."
----------------------------------
I don't know why the staff was in the dark because everyone I knew was very aware of how critical he was.
Well, the staff I knew had no clue, because I told one supervisor and she said that they did not even know he was in the hospital, that was the day before his homegoing. She was tearfully shocked!
Covenant has it in their bylaws that it must always be by written secret ballot. That's the only fair, honest way to hire a new minister.
Oh Eprov, you posted earlier
"I heard Ian Paisley at BJU several years ago and he is a BIG guy in addition to his booming voice. ...his sermon was soul challenging."
Reply from Lily:
I heard Ian Paisley at BJU on numerous occasions. Acutually got to sit at the same dinner table and converse. I have followed his work ever since. What a man of God. So few people really know what spiritual and personal battles he fought.
BJA (Academy) graduate.
Lily
WHEW! Mom4, I feel better now! Thanks for clearing that up! :)
I guess it would be like Al Sharpton getting a wild hair (ooh, bad pun if you think about it!) and attempting to remove all the Martin Luther King, Jr. Roads, Expressways, Freeways, etc. Ain't gonna happen!
FYI, Ellendale Baptist is having a Trunk or Treat party on Oct. 31st. You can bring your kids by and they can get candy from different cars in the parking lot at the church. See ellendalebaptist.org for more info. Sounds like a fun time!
Thanks for sharing the personal memories of Ian Paisley. I am still amazed this guy preached like this in Belfast. I maintain he had a REAL target on his back.
It takes guts to preach like he does in Belfast!
(Red socks! LOL, must be a reference to the Pope's red Dorothy in Oz slippers)
Lin, you are so right, Ian Paisley lived for decades with the biggest bull's eye target on his back. The stress is incomprehensible - other than God's grace. And SG wants to pretend he is some kind of target - for what - being identified as a charletan(sp?)? It is certainly no where near the type of target that Dr. Paisely and even his son, have been over the years. We here in breezy America have never experienced such a war.
lin, what did you think of Paisley's comments on unity? This guy apparently feared only one thing and that was dissappointing Christ. I think he feared that.
Definately preached the spirit of Elijah. "How long are you going to halt between two opinions".....
I ran across a couple of preachers recently on a blog whining about the cost of preaching the Gospel. The cost to family and the loss of members to megas. Neither appear to have bothered Paisley....
I told them to preach the WORD. Whoever left to go to a mega would come back if he preached the WORD because the wouldn't get fed there....told them if they preached the WORD and everyone left....last one out turn the lights off....
We are witnessing an example with FBC. The pastor is preaching from the WORD. Sheep are being fed and they are moving to that pasture....
The same thing will work at BBC. If they will get a preacher that will preach the WORD. Self serving dynasty building stuff is too easy to see through and results in starving sheep..They can pray all they want, but if they refuse to obey the WORD, it is all for loss. He won't hear the prayers nor honor the sacrifices.....
NASS said...
Unfortunately, much of the SBC leadership seems to be on the same page (no pun intended) as SG. "Touch not God's anointed and appointed," you know.
There seems to be some doubt about that. Why else are we directed to pray for it (item 4)? Perhaps we should be praying for Steve's calling as well. Not a bad idea, actually.
Yes, we DID have a wonderful time of worship at Faith Baptist this morning. The singing...the orchestra...the preaching....the Spirit of God is truly in that place!
My kiddos had a great idea: maybe Faith and Bellevue should just exchange properties. Faith is growing and needs lots more space, and Bellevue..... (well, you can finish this one...)
Bartlettmom:
LOL, I've thought the same thing many times about FBC and BBC just trading places.
But you are right, the music, the worship, the fellowship..at FBC this morning, it was wonderful!!!
lily....
I tried to be discreet with the BJU reference! Not an alum but did interview to teach there back in the dark ages.
I know many grads and a few former faculty and a couple faculty kids who were kicked off campus! LOL
Just wasn't a fit for me.
"lin, what did you think of Paisley's comments on unity? This guy apparently feared only one thing and that was dissappointing Christ. I think he feared that."
If only all pastors feared God. There will never be horizonatl unity of relationships when we preach the scandal of the cross. It is offensive. Why can't we accept that? The pews will empty and then slowly start filling wiht those who are sick of nursing at mama's breast (Hebrews 5)and seeking meat.
Don't get me started on whiny preachers. This is a title only...they are really hirelings.
You know who Paisley reminds me of? Leonard Ravenhill.
lin.....
Leonard Ravenhill another name from the past.
I thot most of you on here were younger than I but some of these names are from 2 or 3 generations ago! LOL
I used to drive many miles to hear him.
His type cared more about pleasing God than men!
Hey, eprov. Leonard Ravenhill even has a MySpace page. The man died in 1994 but last logged on to MySpace on 10-17-07. Quite a feat!
I have only discovered Ravenhill in the past 2 years. Paul Washer talks about him and I checked him out and read a few of his books.
Let me just say: Wow. You are right. Pleasing God is his only priority. Hard to believe these guys are British, Scottish, etc.,
nbbcof....
didn't realize he was a mystic too! lol
bravo for him.
haunt the crowd that has sold out to the world!!!
In this era of apostasy posing as "growth and postmodern progress, not all preachers are preaching an evolving and pragmatic TRUTH.
This preacher calls it like it is and does not in any way accomodate the seeker sensitive, post-modern, purpose driven spiritual garbage...
You will be encouraged by the straight and bold exposing of false teachers , false doctrines and false movements infecting the Visible Church.
PRAGMATISM AND SEEKER SENSITIVITY VERSUS UNCHANGING TRUTH
watchman.....
all I can say is WOW!
very sobering.
hate to post again but couldn't find your email.
thanks for this link.
Watchman...
Who is this???
Ima and e prov
Here is the link to this faithful preacher of GODS UNCHANGING TRUTH
FAITHFUL BAPTIST PREACHER BLASTS POSTMODERN PRAGMATISM BACK TO HELL,WHERE IT CAME FROM
CULTURE CRASHING
Culture crashing occurs when a pastor (or any other staff member) accepts a position in a church with an established culture, and then tries to radically change the culture. This is primarily seen in efforts to make old churches young, traditional churches contemporary, or worship services "seeker friendly." The intent to draw sinners, not saints, to God is good but should not be at the expense of an existing culture, unless, of course, the church is dying and in desperate need of some kind of change to become effective again. You have every right to develop any cultural church style you want, provided you start your own church. But when you crash an established church, you seriously violate Christ, ripping the garments of His bride. That's sin. Here's why:
-First, it is a moral violation to crash a culture. Missionaries have learned the hard way that their job is to take the Gospel into a culture, not change the culture. If ethics demand that foreign cultures remain intact, then the same ethics demand that an established culture in any church be honored.
-Second, it's egotistical immaturity to tear down a culture just because you didn't help build it.
-Third, it's downright stealing to take a salary under the guise of pasturing a certain culture, then violate and trash it. Your work is to root out sin, not destroy culture. It is ruthless ignorance to pound people with guilt for clinging to a 30 - 50 yr. pattern of life instead of supporting your desire to dress, sing, and worship differently. You must honor the culture in which they learned to follow the Lord Jesus Christ.
-from "Firestorm:Preventing and Overcoming Church Conflicts"
by Ron Susek with Forward by
Dr. D. James Kennedy
32+years,
That's a very good quote. There was no one thing that went wrong at Bellevue, but that's a big part of it.
I don't think Steve Gaines tried to make us seeker-friendly, he tried to make us into Gardendale. It's ironic that he expected us to change while he didn't want to.
IMHO, thanks to Rick Warren and his "successful" business plan, many churches are facing the culture change. I pray that the pendulum will swing back to the business of God, away from the business of the world.
larry said...
"I don't think Steve Gaines tried to make us seeker-friendly, he tried to make us into Gardendale. It's ironic that he expected us to change while he didn't want to."
Well Bellevue sure looks more like Gardendale now. Gardendale had 8,500 members with Steve, Bellevue has about that amount now, down from 34,000. Just the size he can handle but with more money.
He hasn't change, he's on vacation again, and not just Wednesday nights. Seams the stress has gotten to him.
Don't exaggerate. Bellevue never had 34,000 members. They just haven't bothered to purge the rolls in the last 20 years. In July they claimed to have about 29,000, but they have no idea where over 11,000 of that number are. So if there were really 18,000 members then (and even that's suspect), and if there are only 8500 now, that would still be significant. Where are you getting that number?
They've panned across the congregation during the televised services recently, and it would be generous to say it's been 40% full -- in the 9:30 service.
Listen to the radio broadcast from Revive Our Hearts. It is entitled "Holiness in the Church", for Tuesday, 10/16/07.
http://www.reviveourhearts.com
Good part especially 16 minutes into the program.
gopher said...
"He hasn't change, he's on vacation again, and not just Wednesday nights. Seams the stress has gotten to him."
Isn't it interesting how God's grace is sufficient for us to do what ever He has called us to do, yet Steve Gaines can't hack it? I wonder where his calling came from?
Larry said, "I don't think Steve Gaines tried to make us seeker-friendly, he tried to make us into Gardendale."
Larry...Gardendale was/is a member of the Willowcreek Association and that IS seeker-friendly. Bill Hybels introduced the seeker-friendly movement into the world. Gardendale was still a member of WCA the last time I checked.
I have been studying Judges 19-20 the last couple of days. If you get into it and dig out the references, you will be able to find,
Jesus, (Judges 19:1,18,29)
THE CHURCH (Judges 19:2,10,24,25-29)
The religious establishment (19:15,22,25)
We see the men of Gibeah, wicked men, worthless fellows in 19:22.( See also Ge 19:4, Ez 16:46-48, Dt 13:13, 1Sam 2:12, 1Ki 21:10, 2Cor 6:15)desiring an "encounter" with the man to satisfy their lusts...but then taking out their wrath on the man's wife. Much like wicked people today seek a relationship with Jesus based soley on what they get out of the relationship...their blessings...to satisfy their lusts. And the result is the rape and murder of the CHURCH. His wife.
On a large scale, we see this today with many of the tv "evangelists" if you can call them that. But in reality they have only one goal in mind....
On a smaller scale you can see the same thing at BBC. The rape and murder of a church. Now we can argue the condition of BBC...but in my opinion, she is dead and Jesus has sent parts of her all over the territory for a reason. Judges 19:29 When one thinks about it, the imagery is not that different from scattered wounded sheep, dying in the wilderness. Before you say, they are not dead, remember the folks that you know that don't go to church any more, that are sick of the whole thing and have lost faith.....
Judges 19:30And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds.
Judges 20:7Behold, ye are all children of Israel; give here your advice and counsel.8And all the people arose as one man, saying, We will not any of us go to his tent, neither will we any of us turn into his house.9But now this shall be the thing which we will do to Gibeah; we will go up by lot against it;10And we will take ten men of an hundred throughout all the tribes of Israel, and an hundred of a thousand, and a thousand out of ten thousand, to fetch victual for the people, that they may do, when they come to Gibeah of Benjamin, according to all the folly that they have wrought in Israel.11So all the men of Israel were gathered against the city, knit together as one man.
Do we go join together and go up against the men of Gibeah? Or do we return to our tents? I think if you look around....you will see most hiding in their tents and no one is willing to go out against the people that have raped and murdered BBC. Put simply, there should be a groundswell of voices from sister churches, other pastors and leaders and even the SBC that is not happening.
So this ultimately is a "unity" message. The question is ....who do you want to UNIFY with?
What do you define as qualifications of "membership".
Is it only those who go forward and are baptized?
Is it those who join a Sunday School class (you don't have to be a member to be on a Sunday School roll).
Is it only those who attend every week?
Is it those who at least attend every other week?
Is it those who attend at least once a month?
Is it those who attend at least 4 times a year?
Is it those who once attended and are physically unable to attend any more allowed?
Is it those who give included, even if they can't attend?
Is it include those who only sing in the choir (or participate in the music ministry only)?
Is those who work the Buses and parking lot included?
At what point do you tell someone you are no longer include in the Bellevue Family - remember Bellevue is a "Family of Friends"
The sanctuary holds 7,000 people, including the choir, so in the previous days you had anywhere from 10,000 to 13,000 in the sanctuary with the 2 services. I don't have to exaggerate as I've seen a list when Adrian was here. Has anyone seen the list that David Coombs refers to in July (29,000)?? Remember David's comment in his letter for members to ".... provide a wall of protection..." for our pastor, so what do you think he is doing?
If you think you see a 40% capacity at 9:30, thats about 2,800 but I think it is more like 2,000 and if you see a 1,000 in the 11:00 service, your lucky and thats a quarter of what it used to be. Sunday school classes have been closed and combined, and this is still going on. So 8,500 is all Steve can handle otherwise he is overwhelmed.
In answer to your questions: How to Become a Bellevue Member.
I didn't say I thought it was actually 40%. I said it would be generous to say it's 40%. So I was being generous. :-)
I've not seen the 29,000 number to which DC refers other than in a report he compiled, but that's close to the 30,000 you always see tossed out as in, "The 30,000-member Bellevue Baptist Church.... " He said they couldn't even find over 11,000 of that number, and that number was "official" as of March 30th, I think.
I figure they're losing at least 100 members a week -- through people moving their membership to other local churches, giving up on church completely, moving out of the area, or dying. And yes, I'm probably being generous with that number, too. They don't want anyone seeing the actual numbers and guard them closely.
When will we realize that the world is not impressed with the religious version of itself? Our greatest effectiveness, our greatest weapon is not found in being like the world, but in being different from the world, in being like Jesus.
So in the midst of such a state, my question is: Where are the Nehemiahs of our day, the men and women who love God, the men and women who love holiness, the men and women who fear nothing and no one but God? Where are the saints? (And a saint means a holy one.) Where are the saints who act like saints?
Where are those whose lives are beyond reproach in every matter? In their homes, their work, their speech, their habits, their attitudes, their finances, their relationships?
Where are the believers whose eyes are filled with tears and whose hearts ache when they see an unholy church entertaining itself to death and partying with the world?
Where are the believers whose knees are sore from pleading with God to give the gift of repentance and to bring a revival of holiness in our day? And where are the Christian leaders with the compassion and the courage to call the church to be clean before God?
-Nancy Leigh DeMoss "Holiness in the Church"
ima,
I don't think being a member of WCA necessarily makes a church seeker-friendly. It's not a denomination, it's a money making venture. As long as its members send them money they don't care what they preach. Seriously. I've heard that at least one Mormon church is an anonymous member.
There are still pastors who aren't knowledgeable about the church growth movement and they join the association to save money. Member churches get special rates on the literature they purchase WCA. I'd like to think that there are still Bible teaching pastors and teachers left in some of these churches, though, and they'll step away from the Willow Creek stuff when they realize how unedifying it is.
Besides, a seeker-friendly church is supposed to have music that draws people in. I can't imagine anyone being attracted to the drum concert at Bellevue. I'd just as soon sing along with a flat tire.
jmho
Well Larry...if indeed there is leadership in churches that join up with the Willow Creek Association under the guidance of Bill Hybels and don't realize they have become members of the seeker sensitive movement, well all I can say is God bless 'em. Your post really leaves me high and dry Larry...I really hope people know better than this. And I say all of this with love...not condemnation. If this is the ideology behind people's 'thinking', then we are even in worse trouble than I even thought.
And...denomination has nothing to do with it by the way.
34 “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! No, I came to bring a sword. 35 I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Your enemies will be right in your own household! 37 If you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine; or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. 38 If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine. 39 If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give it up for me, you will find it.
40 “Anyone who welcomes you is welcoming me, and anyone who welcomes me is welcoming the Father who sent me. 41 If you welcome a prophet as one who speaks for God,* you will receive the same reward a prophet gets. And if you welcome good and godly people because of their godliness, you will be given a reward like theirs. 42 And if you give even a cup of cold water to one of the least of my followers, you will surely be rewarded.
Does anyone want to contrast the first sentence with the last in the context of seeker friendly churches?
32+,
Interesting questions. I would answer that they are few and hard to find. I certainly don't meet those qualifications.
A lot of this is caused by the idea and the preaching/teaching that sanctification or becoming the people like you mention (HOLY)is just not a requirement any more. Not sure how we could have fallen that far but according to the WORD we have certainly fallen that far if we don't even recognize the need for it any more. EZ 16 The Church.
Another good question is how do we find our way to repentance? Do we seek it carefully with tears? Israel didn't get victory over the tribe of Benjamin (it is important to undertand that they were a part of Israel) until they wept, fasted, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings.....
(Judges 20:26.)
So in the pages of the WORD, Judges 19-20 we find an epic battle among the children of Israel to root out and destroy wickedness within the nation of Israel.
We see revival in chapter 20 born from a spirit of repentance and obedience to God.
Bromichael was on the other day suggesting repentance for all sides...He was right. But there is more to it. We have to become one and fight the fight that needs fighting.
John 17:6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,[b] that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world,[c] I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[d] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
1 Dear brothers and sisters,* when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to mature Christians. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in the Christian life.* 2 I had to feed you with milk and not with solid food, because you couldn’t handle anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, 3 for you are still controlled by your own sinful desires. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn’t that prove you are controlled by your own desires? You are acting like people who don’t belong to the Lord. 4 When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I prefer Apollos,” aren’t you acting like those who are not Christians?*
ALERT: Bellevue’s Tithe Patrol is now inspecting the records.
The following appeared in last Sunday’s East Wing’s Announcements:
After relaying a story about how a staff member let a former hair dresser know how wrong it was not to pay Taxes, they then went on to say this to the Volunteers:
“Now let’s bring this down a little more personal. Let’s talk about tithing. If you are withholding your tithe because you don’t agree with the leadership, then your are WRONG (emphasis added) and cheating God. No matter how much you justify it in your heart and mind, you are still WRONG (emphasis added). God doesn’t need your our money but He desires our obedience. After all, everything we have comes from God. We bring our tithe to God as an act of worship. We bring it to the church which is the storehouse. ( Malachi 3:8-10)”
Ok, who’s been looking over the tithing records ??
And who’s been reporting that some people do not agree with the leadership??
The previous Pastor never had to do this, what was his name?
Funny how this storehouse can only be used at the whim of Steve Gaines and David Coombs.
Has anyone been able to get anything from this storehouse when you had a need?? (like starting a new church, running for a political office, your daughter needs plane tickets to make cheer leading tryouts, need a car, need life insurance, need to pay for a birthday party for you wife and one for your daughter, you son needs money for seminary, you children need money for private school, need we go on? it's beginning to sound like Richard Roberts at ORU)
Bellevue says, "God loves you just the way you are."
R.C. Sproul says,"The church growth movement has done an outstanding job in capturing the right words. Everybody opposed to churches growing raise your hands. Anybody out there not want to attract unbelievers to the church of Christ? Is anybody seeking ways to grow the church impractically? The way the theory is couched just about guarantees its being accepted. The problem is the theory doesn’t match the words.
"The only seekers we tend to draw with seeker sensitive services are believers seeking a different church. By presenting a God who wants us to look at ourselves, who doesn’t judge and command, who has a wonderful set of insights on how to have a happy, healthy marriage we put God’s imprimatur on narcisism. There’s nothing evangelicals like more than to be told that God loves them just the way they are."
I cannot begin to recommend Bob DeWaay, nor Igrid Schuelter enough…they are among the best in knowledge of what is ongoing in our churches today. We are blessed with the opportunity to hear them over VCY Radio which was aired on Oct. 22, on Monday of this week. Ingrid is interviewing Bob DeWaay on the Emergent Church Movement and on mysticism, both of which we have had discussions about on this blog. There has been some disagreement and lack of understanding on this subject, so I am posting the broadcast here for all to hear. It is not as detailed as I would like for it to be, but then it would take much more time involvement for that. It is good and I hope each of you will take the time to listen to it. The following is the introduction to it on VCY:
The Emerging Church Movement
Bob DeWaay is the pastor of Twin City Fellowship in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and author of the book, Redefining Christianity: Understanding the Purpose Driven Movement. They are known for sponsoring Faith at Risk III Conferences: Contending for Truth Against Emerging Deception which help to warn the church about the dangers of mysticism and the redefining of key biblical doctrines.
Pastor DeWaay believes that the Emergent Church movement is not about articulating the Gospel. He believes it's about denying the Gospel as it questions anyone who believes they know the truth. He points out that the Emergent Church believes that anyone who clearly articulates the terms of the Gospel is assumed to have questionable motives.
What are the key ways that the Emergent Church is eroding biblcal doctrine? According to Pastor DeWaay, it starts with their belief in knowledge and how we know what we know. They reject any solid, foundational approach to knowledge to the point that everything becomes subjective. Because of this, they reject the idea of propositional truth.
Like the New Age movement, the Emergent Church is also deceptive in that it has terms that sound Christian, but the meanings represent concepts that are anything but orthodox in their intent.
Bob DeWaay's Interview by Ingrid Schuelter on VCY about the Emergent Churches and Mysticism
ezekiel said:
"Put simply, there should be a groundswell of voices from sister churches, other pastors and leaders and even the SBC that is not happening."
Sotl says:
I have been told that Sunday night
( I was not there) Bro. Danny at FBC talked about integrity and used as his example someone " TRESSPASSING" when there was a
"NO TRESSPASSING" sign in plain view.
OHHHHHH STEVIE BOY....consider yourself spanked!
My tithes are between ME AND GOD. Thats it. It doesn't matter what Gaines thinks.
And its funny that they are ripping people for holding back tithes given all of the sin in their camp.
Didn't Jesus say remove the plank from your own eye before you remove the speck from your bothers?
(Pardon the upcoming posts...I've been out all day and there is good stuff here)
Ezekiel said: "Put simply, there should be a groundswell of voices from sister churches, other pastors and leaders and even the SBC that is not happening."
Ez, you have put your finger on something I have thought and thought about. They aren't going to do it. Why? Because of the old "splinter and log" thing. Local pastors, SBC leaders, SG friends aren't secure enough in their walk to call another pastor down. And I do know it would be hard. Look what happened when Mike S. tried.... But still.....other churches are saying "come on in, you are safe here" when a "sister church" is dealing with false teaching and many worldly sins.
I know several men who tried and tried to hold SG accountable and got no where. So it does make one wonder........what now?
Gopher: I believe a member is a BELIEVER who feels led to partner with a specific local church for worship and ministry purposes. That ministry includes attendance, the member using his talents to serve God and the church, and supporting it with his tithes.
In my opinion, it's about worship and service, not "what can the church do for me."
Does anyone want to contrast the first sentence with the last in the context of seeker friendly churches?
Answer: Seeker-Friendly churches do not teach the whole gospel or the whole character of God. Given these two verses, they give much water but no discipline. It's like when you raise a child.....it's crucial that there be both love AND discipline. If you leave one out, you've got a mess on your hands. (Just read the headlines) Following God requires both love and discipline. Seeker churches believe the discipline part will scare people away so they conveniently forget it.
They tell you to "come just as you are" but forget to tell you that God does not want you to stay that way. He wants you to be more like Jesus every day. That change requires discipline- self-discipline and discipline from others. It takes commitment. It takes sacrifice. And it's hard. Since most people don't want to work at it, they prefer seeker-friendly....it's just easier and makes you feel good, you know?
I just got my latest copy of Marie Claire magazine - save you chastisements.
An article featuring James Haven, brother of Angelina Jolie, states the following:
Question: You're also doing AIDS word with Rick Warren, the megachurch pastor?
Answer: I want to work with Jews, Buddists, Hindus, Christians - anybody who realizes that these are human issues. I'm heading up Saddle back Church's Youth AIDS Day, for thousands of junior high and high school students to listen, leasen and get inspired. It hits ver close to home-my niece Zahara's biological parents died of AIDS. Las summer I went to her home country, Ethiopia, and spent five weeks with AIDS orphans.
I'm all for AIDS education and research, but when James Haven (a confirmed homosexual who practically French kissed his sister at the Oscars a few years back) engages with Rick Warren in "human issues" there is something very wrong.
Rick Warren should not have such a man heading up committees representing Saddleback - they should be trying to win Mr. Haven to Christ and show him that homosexuality is a choice, not biological and they should worry about winning souls for Jesus through AIDS education. There's no indication this project is anywhere linked to bringing people to Christ. They accept all - Please don't misconstrue my words - I'm not saying AIDS isn't the scourge of the world and innocent adults and children are being affected by AIDS, but if you trace the roots of AIDs back to it's very core, it's a disease brought about by sin - sexual immorality. Period!
Change of subject - Malibu Presbyterian Church burned to the ground this week. Should Bellevue send them a check?
karen
Concernedsbcr,
What now? Seek counsel, lift your voice, make it be heard. Just like Israel was rallied by the horrific cutting up of the concubine....rally for battle. If you compare the body of the CHURCH, the members are all part of the body. Worthless men have come in and cut up the body, sent it out to the rest of Israel...other churches. Dead bones of a once vibrant bride.....
Ezekeil 37 1The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
15The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
Jesus can bring her back to life, but we have to fight the fight. Israel was defeated 2 times before they prevailed against Benjamin....they won after the repented and offered a burnt offering and peace offering.......
Judges 20:19And the children of Israel rose up in the morning, and encamped against Gibeah.
20And the men of Israel went out to battle against Benjamin; and the men of Israel put themselves in array to fight against them at Gibeah.
21And the children of Benjamin came forth out of Gibeah, and destroyed down to the ground of the Israelites that day twenty and two thousand men.
22And the people the men of Israel encouraged themselves, and set their battle again in array in the place where they put themselves in array the first day.
23(And the children of Israel went up and wept before the LORD until even, and asked counsel of the LORD, saying, Shall I go up again to battle against the children of Benjamin my brother? And the LORD said, Go up against him.)
24And the children of Israel came near against the children of Benjamin the second day.
25And Benjamin went forth against them out of Gibeah the second day, and destroyed down to the ground of the children of Israel again eighteen thousand men; all these drew the sword.
26Then all the children of Israel, and all the people, went up, and came unto the house of God, and wept, and sat there before the LORD, and fasted that day until even, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.
27And the children of Israel enquired of the LORD, (for the ark of the covenant of God was there in those days,
28And Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, stood before it in those days,) saying, Shall I yet again go out to battle against the children of Benjamin my brother, or shall I cease? And the LORD said, Go up; for to morrow I will deliver them into thine hand.
29And Israel set liers in wait round about Gibeah.
30And the children of Israel went up against the children of Benjamin on the third day, and put themselves in array against Gibeah, as at other times.
31And the children of Benjamin went out against the people, and were drawn away from the city; and they began to smite of the people, and kill, as at other times, in the highways, of which one goeth up to the house of God, and the other to Gibeah in the field, about thirty men of Israel.
32And the children of Benjamin said, They are smitten down before us, as at the first. But the children of Israel said, Let us flee, and draw them from the city unto the highways.
33And all the men of Israel rose up out of their place, and put themselves in array at Baaltamar: and the liers in wait of Israel came forth out of their places, even out of the meadows of Gibeah.
34And there came against Gibeah ten thousand chosen men out of all Israel, and the battle was sore: but they knew not that evil was near them.
35And the LORD smote Benjamin before Israel: and the children of Israel destroyed of the Benjamites that day twenty and five thousand and an hundred men: all these drew the sword.
It is God's fight but we have to stand. We have to repent and get it right with God and let Him fight it for us...give them into our hands....
Re the gaudy blue and white BBC sign on Germantown Parkway...
Anyone know what happened to it? The actual sign part was gone today.
ezekiel wrote:
"The new signs would have been a bit more (not much) visable if they were done up in neon green and an orange border..... Maybe someone with connections could get that message to the front office?"
9:02 PM, June 29, 2007
Perhaps someone with connections did!
The sign was taken down on Monday....at least the coverings were. The frame of the sign is still there. Wonder what's up.
My first thought was perhaps someone had shot it (this is Memphis, after all), but the inside lights appeared to be intact.
They wouldn't have to take the whole thing down to attach a revolving mirror ball, would they?
They probably took it down just to give us something to talk about.
Maybe with MLGW raising the rates again, along with decline in tithe offerings...perhaps Bellevue is taking the sign down to save money.
"There are still pastors who aren't knowledgeable about the church growth movement and they join the association to save money. Member churches get special rates on the literature they purchase WCA."
Larry, If there are pastors who do not know about GCM then they are living in a cave. It means they go to no conferences, no Christian bookstores and listne to no Christian radio. We are literally surrounded by it. Some of the old names in Christendom have even fallen for it. Many you would recognize.
If they join WCA to save money...on what? Literature, sermon outlines, drama sketche, video clips, etc., that they use in their churches.
If a pastor is not knowledgable enough to see the content is not the full gospel then he is not a pastor but a hirling. His first priority is to be in study of scripture.
That's a thought, but they don't light it during the day. I don't even know if they've ever lit it at night. Have they?
2 thoughts.....
I passed that sign not too long ago and felt SO embarrassed that my old church had become so tacky.
Lin,
I agree about the potential ignorance of the ministers. If they are that out of touch with scripture and the cultural trends and movements they don't need to be ministers.
Where is the discernment????
Larry, I don't want you to think I am picking on your comment.
I only pick on you when you try to be the blog police:)
They have had it lit at night.
concerned,
Thanks for aswering my question about seeker friendly churches. I think I am going to take a minority opinion on this one. Man can not take the place of the Holy Spirit. No words converted me - God brought me to my knees. My hunger for forgiveness, my pain and suffering opened up the word. Is it possible that we make idols of pastors and churches and give them too much credit????? It is interesting that Paul felt he needed to water down the message.
So now that the leaders have pledged their allegiance to Gaines, are they now being required to have their taxes returns to the Bellevue High Inquisitors to verify that they are titheing?
So the sign has been taken down. Pity. It was so redneck chic.
Any of you notice that Germantown is following proper business meeting procedures. Two weeks notice before a special called business meeting and annoucing who specifically is being voted on. Always like to be a part of an organization that follows the rules.
Lin:
It means they go to no conferences, no Christian bookstores and listne to no Christian radio.
Lin,
I know of several pastors who fit that description. The CGM has been around for a half century, but just hearing about it is not the same as knowing about its perils. Two years ago, how many people at Bellevue knew as much about it as they do today?
The CGM is not what happened to Bellevue. Something happened at BBC that I can't quite put my finger on.
I suspect that 'seeker-sensitive' has become a catch-all phrase whenever a pastor wrecks a church. Don't forget, even Rick Warren's 'transitioning' strategy says there's a time for a pastor to bail out when things go bad, and BBC is far beyond that point. SG hasn't bailed yet.
Something happened at Bellevue that I can't quite put my finger on. I always thought it was bizarre that Dr. Rogers announced his retirement in the middle of a 'revival' series. He knew something was wrong at Bellevue, and bless his golden heart, he might have thought it was him.
When I looked at that sign I felt like I was lit up. It looked like Ken & Barbie merged with Lawrence Welk. No offense to Lawrence Welk fans.
gmommy,
Feel free to pick on me whenever you like.
BTW, was that your car parked in front of the hydrant?
WishIhadknown said...
"....Always like to be a part of an organization that follows the rules."
Does that include a secret balloted vote or one of those all stand up and cheer?
Probably not, Larry, but she may have been the one who shot the sign. (Just kidding, gmom.)
Telos: To be honest, I think most Christians are, well......lazy to some degree. Lives are busy, jobs and home need to be juggled....there's just not time to study everything on our own. So many do rely (probably too much) on church leadership for Bible Study and guidance.
Personally, I think our busy lifestyles have been more of a help to Satan's job than anything else.
larry said...
I don't think being a member of WCA necessarily makes a church seeker-friendly. It's not a denomination, it's a money making venture. As long as its members send them money they don't care what they preach.
Sounds a lot like a description of the SBC.
larry,
"The CGM is not what happened to Bellevue. Something happened at BBC that I can't quite put my finger on. "
Hos 9: 9:9 They have deeply corrupted [themselves], as in the days of Gibeah: [therefore] he will remember their iniquity, he will visit their sins.
Concernedsbcer said:
Personally, I think our busy lifestyles have been more of a help to Satan's job than anything else.
oc says:
That's a big Amen! Much of what we believe to be important is just distraction from the Walk. 'Busy- ness' has hindered many in the business of being disciples. When the emphasis becomes doing more than being more, and that gets confused, the devil gets a foothold and you're in his playground.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Well Nass,
My redneck daddy was teaching me to shoot before I could ride a bike.......
just sayin...
concernedSBCer said...
Telos: To be honest, I think most Christians are, well......lazy to some degree. Lives are busy, jobs and home need to be juggled....there's just not time to study everything on our own. So many do rely (probably too much) on church leadership for Bible Study and guidance.
Personally, I think our busy lifestyles have been more of a help to Satan's job than anything else.
Concerned,
I could not agree with you more. Are we worshiping the golden calf? Are we worshiping idols in our actions? Are we not quarreling like 1st century believers? That is why I posted the 1 Corinthians 3 passage. I am left wondering if Paul had to preach with milk why are we judgeing those who do the same? Will God not complete a work He began within us? If we only give so much as a glass of water to the least of His followers will we not be rewarded? Is God not sovereign? I post again.
1 Dear brothers and sisters,* when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to mature Christians. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in the Christian life.* 2 I had to feed you with milk and not with solid food, because you couldn’t handle anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, 3 for you are still controlled by your own sinful desires. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn’t that prove you are controlled by your own desires? You are acting like people who don’t belong to the Lord. 4 When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I prefer Apollos,” aren’t you acting like those who are not Christians?*
5 Who is Apollos, and who is Paul, that we should be the cause of such quarrels? Why, we’re only servants. Through us God caused you to believe. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us. 6 My job was to plant the seed in your hearts, and Apollos watered it, but it was God, not we, who made it grow. 7 The ones who do the planting or watering aren’t important, but God is important because he is the one who makes the seed grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters work as a team with the same purpose. Yet they will be rewarded individually, according to their own hard work. 9 We work together as partners who belong to God. You are God’s field, God’s building—not ours.
gmommy said:
Well Nass,
My redneck daddy was teaching me to shoot before I could ride a bike.......
just sayin...
oc says:
Did you have a gun rack on your bike? And did daddy teach you to shoot while riding the bike side saddle and at the same time swigging a can of .....uh....Dr. Pepper?
That would be a real redneck daddy.
YeeeHawwww!!!
Just sayin'.
oc.
:)
NBBCOF...You are going to have to forgive me, but I cannot take the chance that somebody might not click onto a link...this needs to be read, so I taking the liberty of posting this article by Paul Proctor here in it's entirety.
PLEASE READ!!!
ARE BAPTISTS REALLY BETTER TOGETHER? By Paul Proctor
October 24, 2007
NewsWithViews.com
On October 11th, 2007, The Christian Post reported the following in an article titled," Southern Baptist Head Expresses Concern Over Negative Image:
Southern Baptist president Frank Page is speaking to fellow Baptists across the country with a resolve to pull together a denomination that has been wracked with divisions.
Page is scheduled to open the Florida Baptist State Convention's annual meeting in November, when Baptists hope to talk about what unites rather than divides them.
Isn't that like cancer patients meeting at the hospital to celebrate their collective weight loss rather than get treatment for what's killing them? What shall we do - buddy-up and hug our way to good health? How does this differ from Joel Osteen's gumball gospel?
"There are forces at work today to try to divide and distract Baptists from our primary mission. We cannot allow methodological differences, generational gaps, or stylistic preferences to divide us," said state convention president Willy Rice, according to Florida Baptist Witness. "We need each other and we truly are better when we are together."
The theme of the Nov. 12-13 meeting is "We Are Better Together."
But are Baptists really better together? And just what is "our primary mission" anyway, peace and unity? Is that why Jesus came?
"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division..." - Luke 12:51
You see, the real "distraction" here is the false claim that Baptists are being divided by "methodological differences, generational gaps" and "stylistic preferences." This tired old argument has been coming from the bowels of the Southern Baptist Convention for years - mostly from trained facilitators who have made careers out of exploiting biblical ignorance and spinning the scriptures to promote goodwill rather than God's Will.
In spite of their claims, in most cases, it is not style or preference that is causing this deep-seated conflict - but rather conviction - meaning it is the Word of God that is dividing Baptists. That is the "Sword" Jesus was referring to in Matthew 10:34 when He said: "I came not to send peace, but a sword."
And dialoging differences away in pursuit of consensus only compromises conviction for camaraderie - creating a corrupted collective conscience that is guided by the glossy dreams and silky schemes of ambitious men - not God's Word.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." - Isaiah 55:8-9
Unfortunately, the Southern Baptist Convention is quickly becoming a simonized rattletrap that is careening off the narrow way of scriptural obedience toward the "wide gate" and "broad way" of groupthink - a junked-filled jalopy that is forsaking the humble paths of righteousness for the highways and byways of peer-pressure and pragmatism - preaching Results & Relationships at every turn instead of repentance and faith in Jesus Christ - "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof." (2nd Timothy 3:5)
Shall we acknowledge our brokenness and seek repair or just apply more lubricant to keep the noise down? Are we justified by His Grace or by our grease?
The Lord's call to sinners, "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand," has been reduced to: "Jesus loves you and so do we."
But when did the apostles ever preach that? And how many of them were martyred for delivering such a message?
That alone should tell Baptists that something has gone awry with this thing called "church" - and that indeed is what it has become - a thing - a lifeless form that is worshipped and served for the glory and gratification of those who made it what it is today. Yes, an idol…with a gospel message all its own.
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." - Galatians 1:8
The article goes on to say:
Speaking at the annual meeting of the Tulsa Metro Association of Baptist Churches, Page acknowledged factions within the Southern Baptist Convention who aren't even talking to each other.
"The groups that are so deeply divided within our convention ... have made little effort to come together," said Page, according to Tulsa World. "And those divisions are so deep that some of the groups will not even talk to each other. And that greatly disturbs me and gives me great caution about our future."
Hellooooo???
"…for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?" - 2nd Corinthians 6:14b-15
And then there was this presidential proclamation:
Moreover, Southern Baptists do not have the greatest image, Page indicated.
"There's a lot of negativity out there toward religious groups, and certainly toward our group, because we've apparently come across as very legalistic and mean-spirited, and I think that's sometimes accurate, because sometimes we've acted that way," said Page, according to the local newspaper.
Fascinating - The wheels are coming off the SBC and its leader is more concerned with what it looks like than what it is - or rather, what it isn't.
Maybe we Baptists should just put our Bibles away and hire an image consultant. They're experts at putting earrings on orangutans.
If you want to see where this is headed, one need only look at another article The Christian Post published that same day titled, Evangelicals, Progressives Seek to End Culture Wars, where CP reporter Michelle Vu had this to say:
The line dividing evangelicals from progressives blurred Wednesday as members from both parties joined in a new mission to erase long-held stereotypes of one another and seek commonality on polarizing issues such as abortion, gay rights, and the role of religion in public life.
Both sides agreed the "civil war" between evangelicals and progressives needs to end and common ground pursued in order for the nation to make significant progress on divisive issues.
Could these be a few of those "methodological differences, generational gaps" and "stylistic preferences" Florida's State Convention president was referring to earlier or do they just serve to get the devilish dialog going between opposing forces and everyone onboard the Consensus Express to common ground?
"And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God." - Luke 16:15
Concerned and others,
Some of you know that I attend a Mega Church. I have struggled back and forth with arguements for both sides. I have struggled in good faith.
I dont think we can place all seeker friendly churches in one pile. For if you come in God's name only God knows what is in the heart.
My church is a church for the unchurched. Sounds like a contradiction. And in some ways it is. But as I have documented, even Paul Modified the message for he thought that those he was preaching to could not handle the meat for they were entreched in their own desires. So, the message can be given in milk form to early or non believers.
What is interesting is this passage
1 Corithinans 5: 9-13
9 When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. 10 But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. 11 What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian* yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don’t even eat with such people.
12 It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways. 13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you.”*
So, as I read this, and from my study notes, you are to associate with nonbelievers and preach the Gospel but not judge them. However, if one proclaims to be a Christian and continues to flagarently sin, they should be dissassociated with for these people will have a negative effect on other believers.
So the onus is on the person to form relationships, to spread the Gospel, and discern where each other stands. The Church must preach the word to believers and non believers and trust that the Holy Spirit will do the rest.
Am I interpreting this correctly?
Hey, about the sign, they would turn it off, and leave it up, if it were a money thing...but since they may have taken ONE suggestion made on this blog-here's another...When the sign goes back up I wish you would rename that church. That WORSHIP CENTER is not Bellevue. I assure you. Mean bullies, gray area in lifestyle isues, spending money like water, caring more about non-members kids than our own (fall fest.) and NOT daring to quote sweet, sweet Adrian.
Nobody honored to have inherited the place our former generations prepared. NOPE NOT BELLEVUE. And by the way NOBODY ever said BBC was perfect or didn't need any changes, I am SICK of that argument. Lets cut to the chase, there are people who feel more IMPORTANT under Steves leadership than before, don't you get it? Please stop letting leadership divide and conquer. PRAY to understand who has a reason to lie! Please. The members have been torn apart and our kids are baffled and looking for their friends.
Read what the BIBLE SAYS, NOT SOME BOOK about hanging out with the top dogs, instead of the folks at the BOTTOM. Please be brave and do this.
"The CGM is not what happened to Bellevue. . "
GCM is a catch all label for churches that are focused on numbers and their methods are such to bring in the numbers. EVen if that means remaking the culture of the church and losing numbers first. They WANT to get rid of those who disagree first. Sorry but BBC fits.
"Something happened at BBC that I can't quite put my finger on"
They brought in a hireling. A man who sees ministry as a career and not a calling. If they told him tomorrow that his salary was now going to be 60,000 grand a year with no perks, how long you think he would stay around?
This is the way a secular organization handles .........
here
This is how Bellevue Baptist Church handles ...........
here
------------------------------------
"GOD LOVES YOU -
Just the Way You Are!"
"Bellevue L O V E S Memphis"
GMommy: In that case, I think I'll stay on your good side!!
larry,
"The CGM is not what happened to Bellevue. Something happened at BBC that I can't quite put my finger on. "
Hos 9: 9:9 They have deeply corrupted [themselves], as in the days of Gibeah: [therefore] he will remember their iniquity, he will visit their sins.
10:42 PM, October 23, 2007
Response
Do you know how to tell the difference between a seeker friendly church and a Word preaching church?
The church that is preaching the Word of God baptizes souls into the body of Christ while the other increases in number and builds social clubs.
I had rather be serving in a church fewer in number but seeking lost souls to saves, baptizing one or two a year than serving in one increasing by a great number of, "church members" who jump from church to church seeking a church to satisfy their own selfish souls.
I have been praying that someone would come forth and tell you people who are so enticed by the seeker friendly movement that you are in that movement and do not realize it. You preach against exactly what you have become and satan sits back and laughs while the soul seekers pray for your souls.
Westtnbarrister quoted Sproul...
"The only seekers we tend to draw with seeker sensitive services are believers seeking a different church. By presenting a God who wants us to look at ourselves, who doesn’t judge and command, who has a wonderful set of insights on how to have a happy, healthy marriage we put God’s imprimatur on narcisism. There’s nothing evangelicals like more than to be told that God loves them just the way they are."
Isn't this just a fancy way of saying that Israel (the believer) has turned away from God? Is in fact committing adultery?
If in fact the "believer" (and I wonder about that) is looking or seeking something, services or a show by moving to a church that provides this can it be considered turning away? Is the focus of the "believer" on himself or Christ?
Isn't the focus then on what this church can do for me, how it can serve me rather than how I can worship Christ there and how I can serve Him there?
If one truly is a believer, shouldn't the search for a church be based solely on finding a fellowhip where you can serve and where the doctrine they teach is consistent with what Jesus teaches?
I guess what bothers me is that there appears to be a lot more spiritual adultery/harlotry committed in the bible than physical. In the spiritual sense, don't we commit this sin the very instant we start making choices on what church does for me rather than what I do for it?
Gopher
The vote at Germantown will not be by secret ballot. You have to sign your name to the ballot and the search committee members will verify membership status when counting the votes. The results of the voting will be announced during the evening whorship service.
I don't mind the stand of and cheer thing. It's just that none of us knew about Gaines coming to "destroy" the church. I wonder if Gaines had talked to the members like he talked the farce of a pastor search committee how the vote would have gone. I still want to have an answer on how you call a man to pastor a church who asks that his name be removed from your list three times and in the final meeting tells you "I will destroy your church." I don't think even a committee of pagans would have chosen a man like that.
What happened at Bellevue is we thought we were electing a Godly pastor but in truth we elected a Balaam. A man who can deliver Godly messages for fun and profit. Unfortunately, it took a year for that to start to be revealed. Speaking for all of us who have since been dispersed, we would have followed a Godly pastor the same as we followed Dr Rogers.
The question was asked why Steve Gaines doesn't leave now that the church has been messed up? First, in the warped reasoning of the Steve Gaines and the leadership of Bellevue the church has not been messed up. They are only cleaning out the "trash." Doesn't matter that truth and love were two of the things thrown out in the trash. Second, where can Steve Gaines go and make the inflated compensation he is now receiving? Last, this is God's will or is it Karma. Christians use the former and Earl uses the later.
Off topic question:
When did dancing become part of the Singing Christmas Tree? That's the advertisement - singing, dancing and drama.
Dancing? Interpretive dance? Rockin' around the Christmas Tree dance?
Oh, that's right, the trash is gone, we can dance and play the drums all day.
Lily Pad
Hi sheeps! Sorry about the "down time" today, but my hard drive bit the dust and I had to replace it tonight. Still have a lot of "restoring" to do, but things seem to be working now.
Please continue!
It seems the sign on Germantown Parkway is being "revised" now. They had one side of it up today, and it appears they painted over the white stripes, making the background solid blue. (You could still see the "rays" on the backside of the canvas (or whatever it's made of), so I guess they painted it instead of replacing it.
Micah,
Do you know how to tell the difference between a seeker friendly church and a Word preaching church?
The church that is preaching the Word of God baptizes souls into the body of Christ while the other increases in number and builds social clubs.
I had rather be serving in a church fewer in number but seeking lost souls to saves, baptizing one or two a year than serving in one increasing by a great number of, "church members" who jump from church to church seeking a church to satisfy their own selfish souls.
Answer: Yes, I know what the difference is and it has nothing to do with baptizing members. The baptism we practice is the same that John the Baptist practiced. A baptisim into repentance. The only way to get the baptism that really counts is by fire and the holy spirit. Something a member of a WORD preaching church should know. That is something that a church can't do....How many hell bound people do you think are out there today thinking they are going to heaven because we didn't love them enough to splain the difference or because we are too lazy to learn the difference?
The thing that makes a seeker friendly church so dangerous is that it convinces the lost that they can in fact do what you say they can do....baptize them into the body of Christ....
We just simply can't do what the Holy Spirit does. He is the only one that can do it....A church exists to edify and strengthen believers, nourish them and make disciples out of them. A church that preaches the WORD does just that.
We agree that church hopping, searching for something to satisfy selfish souls is wrong, see my earlier post. However, finding a place to worship and mature is critical. The chance of that happening at a "seeker friendly" church is slim and none because the premise of the whole organization is to do something that can't be done in the first place. It can't baptize anyone into the body of Christ. It is all about the WORD and the work of the Holy Spirit.
micah said, "I have been praying that someone would come forth and tell you people who are so enticed by the seeker friendly movement that you are in that movement and do not realize it. You preach against exactly what you have become and satan sits back and laughs while the soul seekers pray for your souls."
Micah...where have you been? I agree with you whole heartedly and applaud your tenacity, but you are preaching to the choir! The majority of the people on this blog as regulars have been doing just this for months on end. Nevertheless, thanks for your imput. It is so refreshing to hear.
lily..."singing, dancing and drama"
It is getting to be 'old hat' isn't it Lily? Straight out of Saddleback and Willowcreek. And the BBC people are still in denial aren't they...
How "curious" that the sign is being modified...or is it???
From today's BBC B-mail:
Love Offering 2007
Help Bellevue love Memphis through the 2007 Love Offering on Sunday, November 11. This year's gifts will fund ministry projects throughout our community. Watch for more information soon in the Love Offering Brochure and prayerfully consider what God would have you give.
This seems pretty general. I wonder if there's a list somewhere of projects that will be sponsored?
Telos said: "So, as I read this, and from my study notes, you are to associate with nonbelievers and preach the Gospel but not judge them. However, if one proclaims to be a Christian and continues to flagarently sin, they should be dissassociated with for these people will have a negative effect on other believers.
So the onus is on the person to form relationships, to spread the Gospel, and discern where each other stands. The Church must preach the word to believers and non believers and trust that the Holy Spirit will do the rest.
Am I interpreting this correctly?"
Telos: The way I understand this, we are to be witnesses in our world as charged in Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost", Notes on this passage: "Go ye" should actually read "As ye go." Jesus had already, by this time, told His disciples He was sending them into all the world (John 20:21). Now He was saying that, as they go, they were to go making disciples, then baptizing them, then teaching them all they had been taught by Christ.
1 John 2:15 "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." Note that this command is absolute, not relative. It does not say: "Don't love the world too much," but "not at all" (Romans 12:2; Galatians 1:4; James 4:4). The "world" here does not mean the earth or its people (God Himself so loved the world that He gave His Son to save its people), but rather the world as a "system," with its possessions, positions and pleasures (contrast 2 Corinthians 6:10).
(commentary from Defender's Notes)
This is interesting too: 1 John 3:13 "Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you." Also check out John 15: 18,19.
The way I see it, issues seeker-friendly churches have against them is that they desire to make everyone happy and, because their entire purpose is to draw people in, they never seem to get to the meat of scripture and our spiritual responsibilities. That seems like never moving your child past 1st grade. They get some of the basics but don't move forward. While it's great to "be in school" and get those basics, it's also sad because there is so much more to be learned. I think there is that fine line of being "in the world but not of the world."
telos, you are mostly right. This is a tough one because what the seekers are doing 'looks' so right.
Paul is saying in Corinthians we cannot go out of this world... we must interact with unbelievers on a daily basis in our lives for business, etc. We are NOT to judge them.
However, the whole point is to take the full gospel OUT to unbelievers. The word for church is virutally unknown in origin and there is little agreement where it comes from. The word for early fellowship of believers was ecclesia. Meaning "called out assembly" or something close to that.
The problem with seeker friendly is that they do NOT take the gospel OUT, so to speak. Their goal is to invite the 'unchurched' to church and get them involved in 'churchianity'. (One can be a 'churched' unbeliever, too. Think about that one)
The point is not to get them into 'church'. The point is to share the full gospel and the Holy Spirit convicts them of their sin and need for a SAvior because they cannot save themselves. This does not always happen, sadly.
When they are convicted of SIN, repent they want to worship and learn with OTHER TRUE believers.
Seekers have it backwards. And what they do in turn is to water down the full gospel so they will not run off the unbeliever too quickly. They hope that after a while, the unbeliever coming to church will be saved. But saved from what? If they are not hearing the full gospel (The bad news, too) then what are they being saved from or to?
And they are not hearing the full gospel. They are usually hearing some variation of your best life now..as in how to have a happy marriage, 5 steps to raising children, Why evolution is wrong, and worse, all you have to do is say a sinners prayer and you are saved! All you have to do is 'accept Jesus into your heart'. (BTW: if you find that in the NT, let me know)
They are hearing everything EXCEPT that Wrath is coming, we are totally depraved and if we are not saved AND being sanctified, we are in danger of that wrath and will go to hell. They are not hearing that when saved we are totally new creations. Here is a simple test to see if we are saved:
Do we now HATE the sin we once loved? Are we broken and have godly sorrow over sin that the world would not even think of as sin? Do we LOVE what God loves? Do we seek righteousness in humility and love?
There is ONLY one seeker and that is God. And we best be friendly to HIM! (Romans 3)
I am not saying there are NO mega's where the Word is preached. John Piper preaches the Word as does John McArthur. Jeff Noblitt preaches the Word. But they are NOT seeker churches. There are probably more that I am not aware of at this time.
Blessings to you, my friend.
micah,
Are you saying that Bellevue became a seeker-friendly church when Dr. Rogers became pastor? That's when the church started growing.
If growing numbers and building a pleasant environment is really what makes a church seeker friendly, then by that standard Steve Gaines has made Bellevue very seeker unfriendly since the attendance has plummeted so dramatically.
concernedSBCer said...
From today's BBC B-mail:
Love Offering 2007
Help Bellevue love Memphis through the 2007 Love Offering on Sunday, November 11.
I'd like to know what they did with the money given in Nov. of 2005 for the yet-to-be-seen Prayer Chapel. I'm thinking about asking for a refund.
memphismom02: I think that would be a legitimate request. I wonder why more people aren't asking where the prayer chapel is that they gave money for.
One last thing to consider: When we read the Epistles we sometimes think that all in these early churches were saved. But we are told that false teachers, wolves, etc are also in the early church. Then we read Revelations where God is giving warning to the churches and if they do not repent...well...
Look at the Ephesian church in Revelations. Does not sound like the church Paul was writing to!
Go read Ephesians then read this...
Yikes.
Rev 2:
1"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: 'The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands.
2 "'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. 3I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you(G) have not grown weary. 4But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.'
Memphismom02 said...
concernedSBCer said...
From today's BBC B-mail:
Love Offering 2007
Help Bellevue love Memphis through the 2007 Love Offering on Sunday, November 11.
I'd like to know what they did with the money given in Nov. of 2005 for the yet-to-be-seen Prayer Chapel. I'm thinking about asking for a refund."
High living costs a lot of money and requires high salaries..plus, there is a lot of money being spent on unscriptural activities, especially in the liberal slant of the mission's department, where this year's money designated to go. Used to, the love offering was designated to keep the church out of debt. SG ran his previous churches into debt, I guess BBC is no different.
"Seeker friendly" is only a politically correct catch phrase that sounds good. Like "Choice" sounds better than saying "kill the baby." Very useful phrases used to cover bad behavior. Seems we are impressed with nice words that mask evil rather than considering the consequences, pain, suffering and even death, of the actions the phrase hides behind.
From the BBC love offering mention in the BBC email:
"This year's gifts will fund ministry projects throughout our community."
*****
Wondering if inflated salaries constitute " ministry projects throughout our community"
Bellevue's LOVE OFFERING 2007 =
includes helping Memphis City Schools ....
In fact today was "Faith-Based Leader Day".
here
Of course the school system just lost $600,000 in food and needs help.
here
Memphismom02 said...
concernedSBCer said...
From today's BBC B-mail:
Love Offering 2007
Help Bellevue love Memphis through the 2007 Love Offering on Sunday, November 11.
I'd like to know what they did with the money given in Nov. of 2005 for the yet-to-be-seen Prayer Chapel. I'm thinking about asking for a refund
You can go to BBC web site and go to the Prayer Ministry update and you will find a description of how your 2005 money is planning to be used.Toooo late for a refund..Hope they still have enough of it left for the building..
I know this is somewhat off topic, but considering we are discussing the finances of BBC, I thought this was somewhat on queue...
Has anyone seen the latest issue of 'Money Matters', the publication by Crown Financial Ministries? The featured article is by none other than Rick Warren (NO more Crown for me). In his 2 pages of quotes and misquotes, he tells readers that we should treat everything as a "trust" and that if we do, then God promises three rewards in eternity. First, we will be given God's affirmation. Next, we will receive a promotion and be given greater responsibility in eternity:” I will put you in charge of many things". And lastly, we will be honored with a celebration."
Am I missing something in scripture? I don't recall ever reading all of that in my KJV. Is it another version?
MOM4 said...
I know this is somewhat off topic, but considering we are discussing the finances of BBC, I thought this was somewhat on queue...
Has anyone seen the latest issue of 'Money Matters', the publication by Crown Financial Ministries? The featured article is by none other than Rick Warren (NO more Crown for me). In his 2 pages of quotes and misquotes, he tells readers that we should treat everything as a "trust" and that if we do, then God promises three rewards in eternity. First, we will be given God's affirmation. Next, we will receive a promotion and be given greater responsibility in eternity:” I will put you in charge of many things". And lastly, we will be honored with a celebration."
Am I missing something in scripture? I don't recall ever reading all of that in my KJV. Is it another version?
It sounds like he was basing his comments on the New Living Translation of Matthew 25:19-21:
“After a long time their master returned from his trip and called them to give an account of how they had used his money. The servant to whom he had entrusted the five bags of silver came forward with five more and said, ‘Master, you gave me five bags of silver to invest, and I have earned five more.’ “The master was full of praise. ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in handling this small amount, so now I will give you many more responsibilities. Let’s celebrate together!’
I can see from this where he gets "affirmation" ("The master was full of praise"), "greater responsibility" ("I will give you many more responsibilities") and "celebration" ("Let’s celebrate together!"). But for comparison, here is the KJV:
And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Here you can still see the first two points (affirmation and greater responsibility) but the NLT stretches their so called "translation" (a paraphrase, really) quite a bit on by using "Let's celebrate together" where the KJV has "enter thou into the joy of thy lord". The NLT wording makes it sound like some sort of mutual admiration or partnership, whereas the KJV makes it clear the focus is on the joy arising from and in the master.
But the bigger problem with the applications that Warren made is that he has attempted to parse a parable and make specific applications from each phrase. Parables are meant to convey general truths, some main point, and that point is easily lost when focusing on the particulars. The point of the parable, in context with the surrounding parables and preceding and subsequent events, is the necessity of being prepared (spiritually, as in being a true follower of Christ) for the Lord's return and coming judgment. The parable is not intended to be a description of specific rewards God will grant individual believers in heaven.
This is basic Bible interpretation, Hermenuetics 101. If Warren learned to (mis)interpret the Bible like this in seminary, then he should ask for a refund of his tuition. And those who gave financial support to the seminary who taught him should ask for a refund, too.
Mom4: I guess I'd better do some studying because I don't recall that either. Frankly, that's scary. We don't give to get a reward or a blessing....that just feels really wrong to me.
Everytime I turn on the TV in the last couple of days, they are interviewing Rick Warren...and last night, Joel Olsteen..Since when did they become the spokesmen for Christians?
It was shared by an individual in the know that the "re-do" for the tasteless sign on GT Rd came with a price tag of $75,000.
Wish said...
I still want to have an answer on how you call a man to pastor a church who asks that his name be removed from your list three times and in the final meeting tells you "I will destroy your church." I don't think even a committee of pagans would have chosen a man like that.
I assume you're referring to the Gardendale resignation speech: "And I told 'em everything I thought they'd have to change, everything that we do right and they do wrong. I mean that." I'd love for just one of the farce committee members to come clean about what they knew Steve was gonna change.
What happened at Bellevue is we thought we were electing a Godly pastor but in truth we elected a Balaam. A man who can deliver Godly messages for fun and profit. Unfortunately, it took a year for that to start to be revealed.
Great comparison. But at least Balaam spoke the truth in spite of himself. Maybe the Love Offering this year could be used to buy Steve a donkey -- if they collect enough.
Speaking for all of us who have since been dispersed, we would have followed a Godly pastor the same as we followed Dr Rogers.
Amen.
The question was asked why Steve Gaines doesn't leave now that the church has been messed up? First, in the warped reasoning of the Steve Gaines and the leadership of Bellevue the church has not been messed up. They are only cleaning out the "trash." Doesn't matter that truth and love were two of the things thrown out in the trash. Second, where can Steve Gaines go and make the inflated compensation he is now receiving?
It is a fact that Steve put out feelers back around the time of the convention. First Baptist Dallas was searching for a pastor at the time. No takers. I think he'd like to leave but just can't walk away from obscene amounts of money.
Thanks for an insightful post!
"Since when did they become the spokesmen for Christians?"
I don't follow these dudes, but no one is the spokesmen for Christians or any other faith, no matter how many try. All of us who live by some ethos must speak most authoritatively by our deeds.
I hope you are all well.
bassman wrote:
"It was shared by an individual in the know that the "re-do" for the tasteless sign on GT Rd came with a price tag of $75,000."
Wow. If that's true, I hate to think how much the whole thing cost in the first place!
mom4 said, "The featured article is by none other than Rick Warren..."
Hey mom4...can you give me this link? Would love to read this!
Yes...I am sickened by the likes of Rick Warren and Joel Osteen. It is time the media turns a deaf ear to these guys. And what is going on with John Hagee?
SOTL said:
Everytime I turn on the TV in the last couple of days, they are interviewing Rick Warren...and last night, Joel Olsteen..Since when did they become the spokesmen for Christians?
oc says:
They are not my spokesmen. They are the present media darlings. This is because what they offer is what is sweet to the ear. Hell's siren song...No blood, no pain, no shame, easy gain.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Hello Bellevue friends -
Don't mean to take you off topic, but wanted to draw to your attention something going on at our church, FBC Jax, that for many of us is just to difficult to watch happen at our church.
Please read our FBC Jax blog as the last two articles I posted I have tried to give information to our church regarding a Jewish fund raiser held at our church, at which a fund raiser will be held to collect funds to go to a Jewish hospital at which state-funded abortions are performed. To make matters worse it appears there are some business/financial interests on the part of the organizers (non church members) in giving to this hospital and not a more deserving Jewish ministry more in line with our values.
To me this is so beyond the pale that I almost think I'm going crazy, and that maybe its just me and that I don't see the "wisdom" in holding such an event.
What say you? Can you imagine in your wildest dreams Adrian Rogers or Homer Lindsay Jr. being this negligent in the use of the church house? What must Jim Whitmire think of this?
Before drawing any conclusions, please read my two latest articles on the fbc jax blog hyperlinked here.
FBCJax Blog
From the JAX blog:
FBCJW said: "To me this whole issue speaks to the lack of wisdom on the part of our pastor. I wonder where are the rest of the leaders in the convention that will call Mac and tell him that this is not a good idea to host this event?"
Watchdog, I have to tell you, this isn't going to happen. We have seen countless examples of SBC pastors and leaders doing questionable things, some even illegal, and the SBC leadership does nothing to guide, correct, or admonish. We are all, after all, autonomous.
However, I'm very thankful for your research on this and I, too (as an outsider) wish funds could go to preventing abortions instead of a shady side of "I hope we help."
ima,
It was a mailout, and they usually have it online each month at www.crownfinancial.org.
Unfortunately, the Oct 07 issue is not online yet. I will try to scan it and send it to you later today. He did not publish the verses he used to back up all his statements, but from time to time he did put in NIV or NLT or TEV. Why would someone jump around, version to version to version? To confuse maybe?
Watchdog,
I am stunned.
WHAT was he thinking?
Thank you for your research. All we can do now is pray.
Figure this one out.
Under the leadership of this new Staff person
here
They are going from this:
here
To this:
here
Starting Nov 4th, they are eliminating the 8:00 and 9:30 College Sunday schools so they will be forced to attend the 9:30 worship service and then the 11:00 Sunday school class??????
Is it that god has spoken and directed him to change things around to fit "new" members - (Seeker Friendly).
Or is it that the leadership has started clamping down on those who attend early Sunday school hours and then are attending other church's for worship.
So "Bellevue L O V E S Memphis" but only on their time schedule.
fbc jax watchdog,
I love your name, btw!
I went to your site and read your last 3 posts. My heart hurts for you, my brother. I suppose this is the "fellowship of suffering" the Bible talks about?
Pastor Mac Brunson, or someone, is making decisions on behalf of the church that are not his to make. The Pastor is to lead and guide, yes. The Pastor is NOT to push his own political agenda on the entire flock of sheep.
Has Mr. Brunson given any reason for this donation? What is the "Official Word" on why FBC Jax is doing this?
"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
When I read Acts 1:8, I see many needs closer to FBC Jax than the Assaf Harofeh Medical Center in Tel Aviv, Israel. Needs like the Clara White Mission, Wolfson Children's Hospital, or the Sulzbacher Center for the Homeless.
All I can make from the information you give, and the information Mac doesn't give, is a political move that was expected to be disagreeable to the flock.
Where are your sheep with horns? RAMS in Jacksonville, huddle up and make a plan. Men of the church, see THIS!
gopher wrote:
"Is it that god has spoken and directed him to change things around to fit 'new' members - (Seeker Friendly).
"Or is it that the leadership has started clamping down on those who attend early Sunday school hours and then are attending other church's for worship."
A more likely explanation is that they've lost so many teachers and members they're having to eliminate and combine a lot of classes. Remember, they want to get rid of the "trash," and if people are leaving after SS to attend another church... well... you know.
Oh, My! While searching for a "cheer leading sheep" graphic, I accidentally found this about a Horror Movie:
Dotting the scenic pastures green of New Zealand’s farmlands is an overwhelming population of forty million sheep. "Black Sheep" brings to life New Zealanders’ worst nightmare - the possibility of these herds running amok.
The ovinophobic younger sibling of a farming family returns home to sell out to his older brother, who’s secretly running a reckless genetic engineering operation on the farm. Two bumbling environmental activists accidentally release a mutant lamb into the populace, infecting the herd and turning them into mutton on a mission..."
* NOTE * I know absolutely nothing about this movie, and I would have NOT have watched it, even before I was saved!
I really don't like the phrase used on the movie poster, but somehow the poster seems relevant to me.
Can there be strength in the flock, if Christ is leading them? How can an errant shepherd (and his wanna-be-powerful undershepherds) be removed from the stable? Like many at FBC Jax, we want a stable church again...
I'm tired of "reckless engineering" and am wondering where the "Two bumbling environmental activists" are?
If Jesus is our Sacrificial Lamb, can't His herd be infected with His power and turned into mutton on a mission?
SG has stolen our church. That is a crime. If he wants to behave like a CEO of a company, aren't there consequences for a company take-over?
Mom4...
Yes to confuse...just like he did in the book, The Purpose Driven Life...and The Purpose Driven Church. He uses all these different versions, including his own paraphases, to culminate it all into his own gumball gospel. Weak, watered down, coerced, and as false as it can get.
Ima
tn_lizzie wrote:
"Where are your sheep with horns? RAMS in Jacksonville, huddle up and make a plan. Men of the church, see THIS!"
Unfortunately, with a few exceptions, most of the "men of Bellevue" have more closely resembled this.
Ima,
Try this....
http://www.pastors.com/RWMT/?id=215&artid=8392&expand=1
copy and paste
Look who's posting what on the FBC Jax site.........
Jon L. Estes said...
Simple solution to all who wish not to give or support this cause.
Don't give anything.
My response:
We are judged many times as a group.....the separation of the goats and the lambs is an example from the Bible.....and as a church. Whether we individually give or not, we will still be held accountable corporately. A primary concern, I would think, would be that the church's time, facilities, and energy are focused on ministry and spreading the gospel, and to not mislead or be misrepresented at all.
1 Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil."
Mom4...
Well...maybe not as false as it can get. Am not really sure how false that is. But suffice it to say, just enough false fairy tales thrown in to fool very many.
gopher,
Thanks for the 11:15 post linking to the Bellevue page on singles.
I scrolled down into the pictures and found it hilarious that they show Rob Mullins several times and they show Josh Manning having a great time.
I'd say false advertising but I guess these guys were so loved by the masses of folks at Bellevue, the current leadership wants people to believe they are still there.
Let's see now. They've only been gone for over a year and two years depending on which one.
Deception, Deception, Deception.
My My My
How about the counseling guide for the BBC students? I roamed on the Student Ministry site of Bellevue.org today and there was a 24 hour counselor icon - click on it and get taken to Lifeway and a list of potential problems you may have and some "helpful" hints.
I was very troubled by some of the things I read on the Lifeway site. Pray that no youth in trouble really goes to that site for help. Dangerous waters.
Prayer Chapel refund: Not a possibility as the refund would go to the "trash" that is no longer a party to the destruction.
Where has that 2 million been send 2005? What has the interest been used for? What accounts have been co-mingled?
from the jxn site:
Jon L. Estes said...
Simple solution to all who wish not to give or support this cause.
Don't give anything.
*****
HMMMMM, that sounds eerilie familiar to a bumper sticker that I see pro-abortionists have on their cars:
"If you don't like abortion, don't have one"
sickofthelies said...
HMMMMM, that sounds eerilie familiar to a bumper sticker that I see pro-abortionists have on their cars:
"If you don't like abortion, don't have one"
Strange, isn't it? Can you imagine people having bumper stickers that said ...
"If you don't like slavery, don't own a slave"
"If you don't like incinerating Jews, don't join the Nazi Party."
"If you don't like murder, don't kill people."
Yep ... that takes are of it!
Lily said...
"Prayer Chapel refund: Not a possibility as the refund would go to the "trash" that is no longer a party to the destruction.
Where has that 2 million been send 2005? What has the interest been used for? What accounts have been co-mingled?"
Hmmmm.....
Wonder if this years Memphis recipients will have to wait 3 years to receive their distributions from Bellevue's "LOVE" offering.
Or maybe this will be a ruse to refill the depleting Bellevue coffers.
"Bellevue L O V E S Memphis" when it fits their agenda.
Junk: Excellent point. How come everyone else would be agast at such sayings but no one cares if Christians are "offended?"
Does anyone have any specifics on just what "fund ministry projects throughout our community" means? WHAT ministry projects?
Does anyone have any specifics on just what "fund ministry projects throughout our community" means? WHAT ministry projects?
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for an answer from BBC leadership on that one.
(unsubstantiated rumor)
I heard that Johnny Hunt is going to preach a 2-day leadership seminar the Friday and Saturday before the offering.
All it looks like is an appeal to the world (Memphis) and people that want to feel good about themselves. They can stroke that itch by giving to BBC if they can be convinced that BBC is giving to Memphis. And they always....always go to the kids because kids have the easiest access to wallets. Show me somebody that doesn't have a soft spot for kids.....
What moral, immoral person wouldn't push a little money that way if it is for a good cause......Double bonus dollars. Support your community and your church with the same dollars and...write it off your taxes.
When you think about it, they are competing for united way dollars. But in this case, BBC is tax deductable.....
It is all about the money........
I saw an interesting sign on the way to the bowling alley tonight.
Advent Presbyterian had a message scrolling on their sign that reads "Advent Loves Cordova"....
Call me crazy, and maybe I'm reading more into it than I should, but it looks like they're using the same playbook.
from the jxn site:
Jon L. Estes said...
Simple solution to all who wish not to give or support this cause.
Don't give anything.
Junkster said:
sickofthelies said...
HMMMMM, that sounds eerilie familiar to a bumper sticker that I see pro-abortionists have on their cars:
"If you don't like abortion, don't have one"
Strange, isn't it? Can you imagine people having bumper stickers that said ...
"If you don't like slavery, don't own a slave"
"If you don't like incinerating Jews, don't join the Nazi Party."
"If you don't like murder, don't kill people."
Yep ... that takes are of it!
sotl says:
Jon Estes was indeed oversimplifing the issue when he suggested that those who don't want to support the project dont' have to. That really wasn't the point was it?
What if, by going ahead and supporting this cause, after it has been made public that this hospital provides state-funded abortions, it would cause someone to stumble, as in:
" Well, abortion isn't all that wrong, because the First Baptist Church had a fund raiser for a hospital that performs abortions, so it must not be ALL THAT bad."
It's so wrong on so many levels that to suggest that one who doesn't agree just not to support it is akin to all of those bumper stickers that junkster suggested.
It's an arguement from a very simple thinker.
fogmachine said...
gopher,
Thanks for the 11:15 post linking to the Bellevue page on singles.
I scrolled down into the pictures and found it hilarious that they show Rob Mullins several times and they show Josh Manning having a great time.
I'd say false advertising but I guess these guys were so loved by the masses of folks at Bellevue, the current leadership wants people to believe they are still there.
Let's see now. They've only been gone for over a year and two years depending on which one.
Deception, Deception, Deception.
My My My
4:04 PM, October 26, 2007
P.S. - I've noticed they Jim Barnwell & Company took Rob Mullins and Josh Manning down from the Bellevue web site since they've not been there for two years.
I noticed Will Bishop is still in their pictures. He's been gone from Bellevue for over a year as well. In fact, I hear he is Minister of Music at a church in Texas.
fog wrote:
"I've noticed they Jim Barnwell & Company took Rob Mullins and Josh Manning down from the Bellevue web site since they've not been there for two years."
So you're saying the photos were removed between Friday and today? If that's true, who says they don't read this blog?
For the record, Rob has been gone only about a year and Josh about 7 months, not two years.
Ezekiel said:
What moral, immoral person wouldn't push a little money that way if it is for a good cause......Double bonus dollars. Support your community and your church with the same dollars and...write it off your taxes.
When you think about it, they are competing for united way dollars. But in this case, BBC is tax deductable.....
It is all about the money........
Reply:
This partnership had be baffled when I first saw it. Why would an ECS supporting church administration develop a partnership with an organization that literally brainwashes children with secular humanism, offers birth control alternatives to minors, forbids prayer on the premises... well you know the rest?
CHECK THIS OUT. There is even a section on "partnerships."
http://www.ed.gov/about/inits/list/fbci/index.html
mom4, and all......
Maybe some of you see something that I don't see. SG is his own worst enemy.
#1) He is NOT a charismatic leader.
#2) He is NOT a gifted administrator / CEO.
#3) He is NOT a powerful preacher.
#4) He does NOT have the ability to endear himself to people.
How in the world could one make the case that he has a 'plan' that will begin to unfold that will re-position BBC as a major influence in the evangelical or Baptist world?
I would rather 'bet my money' on the Arkansas Razorbacks to win the NCAA tournament next March! NOT.
I have received confirmation that the David Rogers family was not asked to leave the BBC missionary house. They are living in the seminary's missionary housing.
They did join Faith Baptist this morning.
eprov,
"How in the world could one make the case that he has a 'plan' that will begin to unfold that will re-position BBC as a major influence in the evangelical or Baptist world?"
In his own mind.....
NASS,
Sorry, my source must have been mistaken, but I am glad the part about them joining Faith was true.
I missed something....
Why is David Rogers who lives in Spain joining Faith?????
What was the deal with the housing?? I know BBC owns several houses in Cordova..is that what those houses are???
eprov,
I agree with all your points!!!!
gmom,
I would imagine because that's where the rest of their family is. It's a personal decision that we don't need to speculate about.
Yes, that's what those houses BBC owns are for.
I'm not speculating at all. If David Rogers joined Faith, he was making a very definite statement....as his mom and sister have.
I wouldn't expect the leadership of BBC to respond to that with any more decency than they have to his widowed mother the past 2 years.
David would be prepared for the response. They know by now who they are dealing with.
It makes much better press and PR for SG to reach out to those schools. Works better with the whole ad campagne.
We Have Forgotten that the Way is Narrow by Paul Washer
When it comes to Paul Washer, I am usually left speechless. Hope you will listen or watch.
Dr. Rogers used to say, nights are beautiful at Bellevue, and they WERE!
Tonight was beautiful at Germantown Baptist Church. Dr. Hal Kitchings PREACHED this morning, and he was great. John "Bull" Bramlett preached tonight, he was great too!
Dr. Hal Kitchings was voted in as GBC's new Sr. Pastor.
1922 members voted, the vote was affirmative by 99.6%!!!
The vote was cast after each morning service by written ballot, with the members name handwritten then signed.
This afternoon the deacon officers and other staff checked each vote to verify membership in GBC.
Quiet different from our "Monkey Business meeting" where some infamous NON BELLEVUE MEMBERS voted, shame! shame! shame!.
God has sent his man, Dr. Hal Kitchings to bring healing, trust and growth to Germantown Baptist and healing and trust to many hurting BBC members.
What a beautiful day it has been in God's house today at Germantown Baptist Church.
Blessings to all.
From Faith Baptist Church of Bartlett's website, click on the link to the current church newsletter in the right column, under Resources:
Website link
Looking at the new member section, on Sept 9th, you will see those who joined and became new members.
You will see the name of Mrs. Joyce Rogers.
Thanks, Kelly. Direct link. Check out next month's, and you'll see more familiar names.
All the GBCer's...
My best to all of you in your new leadership...I am truly happy for you. It has been such a long, winding road to get to where you arrived today. My prayers will be with all of you and with your new pastor and his family as you start this new fellowship together. May God bless each of you and may you mature under his leadership and His guidance.
"Why would an ECS supporting church administration develop a partnership with an organization that literally brainwashes children with secular humanism, offers birth control alternatives to minors, forbids prayer on the premises..."
Remember that meeting that Bellevue had with the Memphis City School System a couple of weeks ago?
It has been now been said by an "unnamed" sourse that "all" the teachers that were "present" at the meeting from the 12 failing schools are "christian" and that Bellevue would have a "free hand" to help out, if they will help raise the failing schools so that the schools will not be taken over by the Federal Government.
So the buzz about this is that part of the "LOVE Offering" would include spending allowances for each teacher in each of these 12 failing schools. A lot of this is still under wraps as they decide the final details before releasing the information......
or they might just say "trust us" and give it as a "undesignated" LOVE Offering. You know how the pastor loves those "undesignated" tithes and offerings.
here
Hey Folks...Only time will tell if GBC made the right decision in calling a new pastor.
After all, BBC made a decision about two years ago that didn't turn out quite right. Who would have ever thought that a top to bottom purge would be the first order of business?
Re: your post at 12:01 AM, Oct. 26, imaresistor said...
"Yes...I am sickened by the likes of Rick Warren and Joel Osteen. It is time the media turns a deaf ear to these guys. And what is going on with John Hagee?"
AMEN to your comments about Warren and Osteen! Like you, I'm also wondering what's up with John Hagee. Does anyone know anything?
M~
Isn't it all getting to be a funny world...no prayer in schools but Steve as their knight on the white horse? YAWN. He is kidding himself if he thinks educated teachers OF ANY BACKGROUND can't see straight through the man. This too shall pass.
I drove through the Bellevue parking lot this afternoon out of curiosity to see the spectacle unfolding in the Grace parking lot. It would appear that the Carnies have arrived and are setting up the midway behind God’s house.
We saw the bumper cars being installed, the Tilt a Whirl, and other rides being unloaded and set up. The Bearded Lady and the Strong Man were playing pitch on the ball fields. The pot belly pigs were sprawled out under a shade tree.
There was a discussion going on in the northwest corner of the parking lot. As I drove closer, I recognized several BBC deacons. They were playing rock, paper, scissors trying to figure out who would be the first to try to wrestle the two-headed mule to the ground. The funny thing was that Mighty-Me (MD) kept jumping up and down screaming “I don’t want to do it…I’m not the Associate Pastor any more…you can’t make me…waaaa…waaaaa…na-na-na-na-boo-boo!”
And then, somebody else started yelling “Swallow and follow…swallow and follow.” As I tried to figure out where the very recognizable voice was coming from, I realized that BBC’s very own former Deacon Chairman, CT, was standing there in a straw hat, trying to get some innocent bystanders to come over to throw darts at some balloons! Yes sir. He went on to say that if you successfully popped 3 balloons in a row, you could teach your own class, coach your own team, or…check it out…if you popped 4 in a row…yep…you could be a BBC deacon!!
Admittedly, by this time, I was rather perplexed. I was feeling faint, and I was in desperate need of a corn dog or fiddle stick. However, the only booth open for business to non-staffers was a great big Kool-Aid stand. In fact, the Kool-Aid was free!
The Kool-Aid came in a rather pretty and nicely decorated “BLM” glass. When you turned it up to sip the Kool-Aid, you could hear the phrase “Bellevue Loves Memphis” over and over. Now, this was rather alarming at first, but it got even stranger. When I drank the last sip of BBC Kool-Aid, the recording changed to say “Got you. King Steve. Got you. I’m the greatest. Got you.”
The super-size inflatables had not arrived as of late this afternoon. However, in the interest of open and fair communications, I want to give kudos to the BBC leadership for finding a good use of all of that hot air!
And then, just when I thought I had seen everything…I stopped to ask one of the workers where the Freak Show was being held. He just laughed…and laughed…and pointed…. I’m not saying anything…but I did see DC and SS and SG sitting under a big ol’ oak tree, sipping some of Jimmy’s fresh lemonade, eating corndogs, and they were looking over some of the Covenants….
The above comment was SATIRE, folks. Very good satire, too! Thank you, bbc_o.
Based on BBC Observations satirical post, I guess there is not reason to "bring in the clowns".
Fun reading BBC Observations.
Can I ask a dumb question? Not being in "the know," how much do those rides and stuff cost? That stuff us budgeted? Does anyone else think there could be a better way to use funds? Who decided that stuff was necessary for a good time?
Okay...let me get this straight. There really is a carnival setting up on the Bellevue parking lot? Seriously?
Ima: I'm not sure what they do for the Fall Harvest Celebration but at the 4th of July they really have those rides set up, just like at a regional fair.
I'm so glad my kids are grown and I don't have to deal with all that.
I don't want my grand kids on those rides...
what a huge liability the church is taking on.
it seems to me instead of having this safe, innocent, uncomplicated environment for the kids to come to...now we just bring in the crazy chaos that they can get anywhere.
Isn't it really just to attract more of the world. Not to give kids a safe haven.
And BBC is FAR from any kind of a safe haven for anyone.
gmommy said...
I'm so glad my kids are grown and I don't have to deal with all that.
I don't want my grand kids on those rides...
what a huge liability the church is taking on.
it seems to me instead of having this safe, innocent, uncomplicated environment for the kids to come to...now we just bring in the crazy chaos that they can get anywhere.
Isn't it really just to attract more of the world. Not to give kids a safe haven.
And BBC is FAR from any kind of a safe haven for anyone.
10:46 PM, October 29, 2007
Ya know, I'm not trying to lump all of them into one catagory, but something about carnies gives me the creeps. I do not trust carnies at all. For bellevue to do this is really dumb, especially given the qustionable safety of rides that are frequently torn down and set back up in other cities.
Good read:
A Battle For Integrity
By Chuck Swindoll
Here's the link to the Bellevue amusement park ad:
here
Please remember that this is a "Missions" project to show that "Bellevue L O V E S Memphis"
Please note the mention of the "Dunk Tank". Steve has announced that he will be in it for anyone who would like to "dunk" him (the show of his humility).
Steve told the congregation on Sunday night that he attended a "neighborhood association" meeting that afternoon and told of this event to them and passed out the "postcards". He also offer them "free" tickets to the Singing Christmas tree as they "applauded" him for his graciousness.
Remember all those "background checks" that the leadership wanted to protect the "corporation" from lawsuits? Now they bring this carnival to the Bellevue property without any of those parent signature wavers that they require for all those other student events.
There are people saying that some Memphians will be "bused" in to again show that "Bellevue L O V E S Memphis". Anyone remember when Steve had the overnight football camp and the 5 cars that were broken into??
Concerned said, "...they really have those rides set up, just like at a regional fair."
Does anybody at BBC from the leadership on down read the Bible? As Christians, we are not to be like the world. What is it about that statement that is so hard to understand? Jesus is not 'of the world'...as members of the Body of Christ, we are not to be 'of the world'. However, these churches of today are seemingly trying to outdistance each other in attempts to become like the world and I might add that most of them are doing really great jobs of it. And I use the word 'churches' lightly...I, like, Paul Washer see these buildings as not much more than attics for bats. What they are doing a great job of is tickling ears.
There is no way they can justify their actions of entertaining the masses to salvation by worly means...it just doesn't happen. Are these people ever going to wake up to the Truth?
gopher said...
"Please note the mention of the "Dunk Tank". Steve has announced that he will be in it for anyone who would like to "dunk" him (the show of his humility)."
He may get a lot of "takers" on the dunkings (didn't they use to do that in Salem, Mass? JK - :)
Hey guys, I've been following the FBC Jax blog and that, in addition to some of the other things we have seen and heard, makes me wonder where this is leading. Oh, I know ultimately. But it seems as if Satan can keep these Christians busy doing worldly things, and thinking they are reaching out and doing good, and hearing sermons every Sunday that are fluffy, well, Satan could get quite a lot accomplished.
I had a conversation Sunday night after church with some fine Christian people I know. They were agast when I said that Rick Warren's teachings had done more to damage the SBC than anything else recently. They agreed the SBC is off track but never would have thought anyone would attribute some of that to Rick Warren. Either eyes are blinded or here in the information age people aren't getting the facts.
Concerned...
Or both.
I know some people from my former church who literally worshiped (and most likely still do)Warren. Then there are those that have never heard of him. I think a lot of this lies in how people are educating themselves about what is going on in the churches today. You know, when you have attended church all of your life and suddenly you see the pews taken out and folding chairs put in their place...and you see the pulpit being removed in lieu of a stage; one gets the idea that something is amiss. My former has a ventriloquist coming soon...I feel sure the stage is just around the corner. They recently had a
'Christian rock concert', or that is what it was called. Personally, I don't think there is such a thing. The word 'Christian' and the term 'rock concert' contradict in my opinion. One is worldly...the other is not.
You know the frightening thing is the slow boil...eventually one accepts these things because one becomes accumstomed to them. We must all stand guard...recognize it when we see it and discard it. And pray and pray and pray for those who do not discard it.
You should ask the rec staff how they feel about the rides being put out on the Red, White and Blue ball fields. They are not charmed. They have worked so hard to get and keep those fields in great condition, and now they will be trashed by the rides and the masses walking over them at the fair. But nobody asked them -- they were just told of the plans that they would have to deal with.
I've got a big problem with tithe and offering money being used to entertain the community. I don't see anywhere in Scripture that Jesus provided parties and free fun stuff to draw people to Himself.
You want to show your "love" for Memphis? You've got single parents at BBC on foodstamps. You've got lots of sick and elderly that won't have heat in their homes this winter. There are the homeless that need food and shelter. These are the "needs" that I believe Jesus would have us meet.
Concerned said:
Either eyes are blinded or here in the information age people aren't getting the facts.
Reply: Bingo! That is the question I ask over and over again. "What is this blindness?"
I have friends - they are of a differing opinion about Warren - attend his church growth conferences, etc. They recently experienced a church split and are very upset with the pastor and his tricks, which are right out of the PD handbook. Yet, they seem to support Warren - still. How can this be?
If BBC persists with their "Bellevue LOVES Memphis" program, they are going to get a lot more than they bargained for and I think you all know what that means.
churchmouse wrote:
"Bingo!
Hmmm... don't give them any ideas!
Memphis Mom 02: You are right on target. I had a conversation last week about that very thing! We keep sending money to the CP and *other things* while we are ignoring the command to take care of widows and orphans. And with regard to single parents (and I can say this because I am one) we need to quit shutting the barn door after the cows get out. We should be teaching of the sanctity of marriage starting in the nursery. Before weddings, marriages need to be discussed seriously and those married need to be held accountable and be given any guidance and support they need. Oh, I know....we will still deal with divorces. There are certainly some situations that it's necessary for safety sake. My ex would have left us no matter what....but in that case we need to then support that family and try to stop that cycle. My kids suffered greatly from a situation out of their control. The church could have helped. Oh, God has been good and we have made it out of the dark tunnel....but I believe church resources would be more wisely used on our senior adults, single parents, widows and orphans. Not on carnival rides. Priorities are skewed and scripture has been forgotten, or discounted.
Concerned...
I pray a lot of people read your post of 11:02am. This needs to be heard...and heeded. So very well stated.
Ima
I have been following this blog from the beginning and have posted a couple of times. I have been tempted to post several other times but didn't because it is such a waste of time. I do not agree with all that Steve Gains has done. I have listened to many of the sermons that you people have tried to tear apart and you don't have a clue. His sermons are very scriptural. The problem you have is that they are hitting home with you and you are not willing to let God work in your lives! The prayer guide for the pastor is a wonderful thing. Maybe if you would pray these things for pastor Gains instead of trying to tear down everything he does things would be better. I would love for my church to pray these things for myself and for our other pastors. Thank you for allowing me to post and may God truly work a mirical in the lives of people on this blog and at BBC.
"I had a conversation last week about that very thing! We keep sending money to the CP and *other things* while we are ignoring the command to take care of widows and orphans. "
You mean like spending tithe dollars on something like this which was about 90,000?
http://sbcoutpost.com/2007/10/22/patterson-in-perpetuity/
Yet, they seem to support Warren - still. How can this be?
10:37 AM, October 30, 2007
Spiritual blindness. I have seen it over and over...people very upset about warrenesque changes in their church while they lug their PDL book around and study it intently. They NEVER connect the dots and they have no idea about pastors.com.
Another problem is many people (I used to do this too) will think a person has been vetted if they see them share a stage with someone they respect. If Billy Graham says something nice about Warren then millions will never see Warren's false teachings. IF they see Warren's book sold in their church bookstore, then Warren must be ok, right?
My former church sold everything in their bookstore including all the emergent stuff. All was ok until Miller was to come and speak and they found out he talks about not going to church as ok. If you are a mega, you can't have that teaching going around. So they cancelled him. But his books remain. Go figure.
People forget the bookstore in the church is about MONEY. IT is all about MONEY and NUMBERS.
Crystal Cathedral conference accused of TWISTING Biblical Christianity into The NEW AGE.
Nreaking news:
BREAKING NEWS
praying4u,
For someone who is such an admirer of Steve Gaines, it seems you could at least spell his name correctly. I'm afraid you're the one who doesn't have a clue. I get the impression you've never set foot in Bellevue, right?
watchman wrote:
"Crystal Cathedral conference accused of TWISTING Biblical Christianity into The NEW AGE."
That's "breaking news"? I thought they'd been doing that for years.
I would love for my church to pray these things for myself and for our other pastors. Thank you for allowing me to post and may God truly work a mirical in the lives of people on this blog and at BBC.
12:37 PM, October 30, 2007
He already has! He delivered us out of apostate churches! Praise Him!
If you think Gaines' sermons are scriptural in general you need to do some serious study, my friend. He is the master of twisting God's Holy Word.
"I would love for my church to pray these things for myself and for our other pastors"
So you are saying you really hope your church is focusing on YOU.
praying4u,
Would you like for us to roll out the barrel?
Tap, tap tap...is this thing on?
Since Bellevue has invited the carnival into town, I was wondering if it's true that Harry Smith and Chuck Taylor are going to be guessing people's weight at the carnival Wednesday night?
This doesn't seem very spiritual to me.
SOTL...
For you!
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