This week Bellevue deacons, some members of the choir, members of Joe Jernigan's class, and perhaps others received this anonymous letter.While I think if you're going to send a letter to someone by mail you should have the courage to sign your name, that's really not the issue here. I have no idea at all who wrote it. I can't even guess based upon the writing style, and besides, it's likely someone I don't know. But instead of criticizing the author for not signing his or her name or for sending it in the first place, why not critique the content of the letter itself? As someone so appropriately pointed out, we don't know who wrote the book of Hebrews either, but that doesn't diminish the value of what it says.
The sermon archives can be accessed here.
800 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 800 Newer› Newest»The East wing is the next target of the "Covenant" signing.
Here's an explanation as to what you are agreeing to as described by the hired staffers.
".... although we are not asking you to sign this covenant (because you have already signed a similar covenant when you first began teaching) we are asking you to look over it to refresh your commitment and remember the responsibilities of those in leadership."
And as to the to the background checks
".... This is only a security check and NOT a history credit."
What does that mean? Does the following form clearly exclude credit histories?
"I FURTHER AUTHORIZE ALL GOVERNMENTAL, LAW ENFORCEMENT, LICENSE AND RECORD-KEEPING AGENCIES , AND ANY OTHER SOURCE TO PROVIDE ALL INFORMATION REQUESTED WITH RESPECT TO MY BACKGROUND, INCLUDING CRIMINAL RECORD, TO BELLEVUE BAPTIST CHURCH AND/OR ITS AGENT, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROTECT MY MINISTRY AND/OR BLUE LINE INVESTIGATION."
Such a document would unconditionally surrender nearly every aspect of your privacy to BBC and whoever they choose to share it with.
Here's your recourse with any misinformation, identity theft or wrongly shared information:
"I hereby knowingly and voluntarily release and discharge Bellevue Baptist Church, and its agents, including but not limited to Protect My Ministry and/or Blue Line Investigations, and any source of information from any and all claims, damages, losses, liabilities, costs and expenses arising from and relating to the retrieving, preparing and reporting any information, including without limitation any inaccurate or incomplete information, to the fulles extent perimitted by law. I certify that I have read and understand this entire document and I agree that a copy of this document is as valid as the original."
Also stated is:
"... Your form is kept on file under lock and key in the human resource office...."
Who had access to your records on file before, Paul Williams? Who is to protect you from unscrupulous staff members? David Coombs? WOW, that should relieve our fears.
And thats after all the information is entered into a computer that will be shared with all those that they seem fit to share it with.
Remember "I agree that a copy of this document is as valid as the original."
32+: Your 6:54 post is outstanding. The casualness with which some are approaching God's Throne is truly frightening, especially when you consider that it is being encouraged by pastors. 32+ said: "You might want to read the book of Malachi to see what God has to say to His people when they get apathetic and careless in their worship of Him." AMEN. We need to restore a healthy FEAR of our AWESOME (in the truest sense of the word) GOD and realize that our behavior, actions, words, and fruits do impact those around us.
When churches and Christians realize that to impact those around us we must look different from the world, not more like it, THEN we will begin to see changed lives.
I know....I'm preaching to the choir.
SG: …my kids were home and they wanted me to go see it and I went to see it with them. Different… I have about four kids, so…
How brave of him to blame his kids. What happened to his being an absolute ruler? Isn't he the head of his own household? Is he not able to make a decision as to where he goes and what he does? Or do his kids rule his home?
He went to see it 4 times because he WANTED to see it 4 times (or more - DVD). He can't even own that much. He has to pawn it off on his kids.
Maybe he could blame the gas companies. After all, they made the gas that enabled his car to take him to the movie theater.
IMHO, bellevue has a responsibility to check carefully every single person who relates to children, and to check their background. When I taught at Bellevue, I was grateful to have a background check. Our children are too precious not to do all we can, to know the background of those who come into contact with them.
That being said, one has to laugh and wonder at the scrutiny now being taken to keep out the wolves and ememies of children when they protected the wolf they knew about, in the chicken house!
So, who isn't going to laugh at and mistrust their background checks? Afterall, didn't steve FIGHT and also, PROMISE or covenant, to keep the wolf in the hen house?
Mistrust is earned.
Housewife,
I was concerned that SG wasn't sure how many kids he had.
"about 4"???????
Rod Almondmartanti said...
I have to at least ask myself, if you are the answer to my first question, Larry.
Mr. Rod,
Could you please specify which question?
You mentioned you had been to First Evan. Have you joined their fellowship yet? If so, do you know if Jeff Findlay is still on staff?
Many displaced Bellevue members have found closure by meeting with the pastors of their new churches and sharing what they've been through.
I think you'll find that Jeff will have some helpful advice if you talk to him.
I've forgotten, but "the East Wing" I assume is the nursery and little kids?
I don't understand why the files would be held "under lock and key in the Human Resources" office. Shouldn't employee files alone be in the Human Resources office and volunteer files be held in the respective offices that they relate to? I mean Adult SS teacher files should be in the Adult Education office, the Children's SS teacher files should be in the Childhood Education office.
Regardless of where they are kept, I totally agree with background checks for anyone who has the slightest contact with children, but I wouldn't sign my rights away to BBC, allowing them to check with the entities listed in Gopher's post. I am all for completely investigating someone, but when you give up your right to know who's investigating and what part of your background is being investigated, that goes too far.
karen
On the evening of February 25, 2007 Dr. Steve Gaines preached a message on "Unity".
Koragg said...
I was reading in a Bible study workbook based on "The Incredible Power of Kingdom Authority" which was written by Dr. Rogers and on page 38 of that workbook there were some statements that really stuck out about the role of Pastor.
"The pastor is to have a place of strong leadership, but not to be without accountability. The pastor and other church leaders still must submit to the over-arching authority of the whole body because JESUS is the HEAD of the body."
"Woe to pastors who have such a sense of self-importance that they become authoritarian and fail to listen and to learn. Such attitudes show immaturity and fear. The true leader does not call honest questions and discussion "sowing discord"
Reading these statements and then looking at the situation at Bellevue now....Gaines is doing exactly the opposite of how a pastor should behave.
9:54 PM, March 01, 2007
My comments (August 29, 2007)
I know.... More AR but I thought this comment by Koragg worth rereading at this time. Readers and bloggers who were not following this blog back in February and March may want to go there and read the analysis of this message on unity by "Former Pastor". Links to February and March are available on the front page on the right hand side. Part 1 was on March 2 at 1:46 pm. Part 2 was on March 4 at 11:25 pm. Other comments are there which may be of interest... at least when I went looking I found the reading very informative considering there has been NO (I'm shouting) change. Anyone there Sunday evening August 5, 2007? NO change! None…. Zip…. Nada! Scary and SO, SO VERY, VERY SAD!!
Miss Billie.... “We” are responding to your comments.... I'm not sure why but... but can you honestly follow Dr. Gaines as the best example of how to follow Jesus? I care for and love people I would not want my children to imitate but I wouldn't choose to leave my children under their leadership and watch care. Those of us who know God as father and have persisted in our encouragement of our brothers and sisters in Christ in the midst of the turmoil at Bellevue Baptist Church have held on for two years…. Not because we love the buildings but because we love the people. We will continue in our love but must recognize and act to lead our families to safety.
Karen: We missed you at the bowling party!
:)
This is the link to a blog by Dr. and Mrs. Rogers' granddaughter. She and her husband are expecting a baby who has been diagnosed with a fatal chromosomal abnormality. The blog follows Angie's pregnancy with this special child they've named Poppy Joy (after Dr. and Mrs. Rogers). What a blessing to read of their strength and God's comfort during what must be a tremendously stressful time for the family. Please keep them all in your prayers.
Regarding covenant signing:
Exodus 23:31"I will fix your boundary from the Red Sea to the sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the River Euphrates; for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you will drive them out before you.
32"You shall make no covenant with them or with their gods.
33"They shall not live in your land, because they will make you sin against Me; for if you serve their gods, it will surely be a snare to you."
===============
This is long but remember I do not control the key to the gate!
32 years wrote:
Ms Billie,
Regarding smoking on church property, I can think of several words: "appropriate" - Is it appropriate to smoke in that setting? "Example" - Is smoking on church property setting a good example for children and young people or will it cause them to stumble into an unhealthy habit? "Respect" - Is smoking on church property showing respect for the place where God's people come to worship Him? "Self-control" - Why can't a smoker wait just a few minutes more to get in their car and drive off the property before lighting up? Bottom line is: Since there are more and more people indulging their habit as soon as they step out of the church bldg., it seems this is another indication of a growing culture of carelessness/casualness towards the things of God at BBC.
You might want to read the book of Malachi to see what God has to say to His people when they get apathetic and careless in their worship of Him.
6:54 AM, August 29, 2007
9:41 AM, August 29, 2007
Reply:
I agree with much of what you have said and to give you some insight into my heart I will tell you that I often address smoking as I teach the precepts of God's Word. I, at times, refer to it as some Chrisian's "weed" as a result I have two young women in my class who have stopped smoking. These young women did not understand that smoking was a spiritual hindrance until they came into BBC and became involved in Bible study.
Many of our (church youth) have become addicted to all sorts of things. Demanding them to give up their addictions before walking onto church property will accomplish nothing, but inviting them to come to church and to get involved in Bible study will give them the understanding that they have a need for intervention that only comes through Jesus Christ.
If we posted a sign "only those without sin must enter" you nor I would be allowed to enter.
Do I like to see people standing outside of our Church with cigarettes in their hands? No, but do I look at the person with a prideful heart that I am better than they are? No, I look at them as prospects in need of dicipleship.
BUT! smoking is just one of many things that is going on in the parking lots of BBC!!! Those members who meet outside of church back biting our Pastor, staff members, deacons and teachers are doing far greater harm to our, "children in the faith" than a unproperly dressed smoker, a drunkard or A sex pervert.
I know that God loves ALL people but a person with beautiful clothes, a Bible in the hand, who sits with his or her note pad taking notes (bits and peices of sermons) or ("tongue and cheek") comments, giving the appearance of being "Godly", then leaving with the intent of going out to cause pain and hurt upon one of God's servants is a evil minded person and I don't care who it is.
I love you people but I detest what you have done and what you continue to do and to be honest I really do not know what I would do if some of you should desire to come into my home. I do not hate you; I hate the hardness of your hearts and the damage you are doing.
If someone came into my home and tried to teach one of my children that it is ok to smoke I would send them out faster than they came in. Most smokers do not do that and most will even say they wish they never smoked the first one. I don't have a problem with that person (they are a testimony for good)
I had one of your people approach me and my husband at church a few weeks ago. This man was sly and, "creepy" but he was dressed to blend in. He opened his mouth and we smelled, "smoke" from hell and it wasn't a cigarette.
I hope you understand what I am saying. I am not too good for anyone and I will listen to anyone, but those who boast that they have Jesus and do the things of the devil are wolves in sheeps clothing. In my opinion, they need to be ran off of the parking lot of BBC (their perfume is stinking up the place and corrupting our children). They take their notes(lies, gossip and deceit) pass it around for others to take home with them and give it to their children) and what is pathetic they do it in the name of Jesus claiming to be God's watchmen guarding His Word.
BBC is not, "Your church" BBC belongs to God and none of you are going to take it away from HIM" He has a plan for BBC and maybe it is to call in the, "smokers" for salvation and spiritual growth. If you are not willing to work with them and love them to a step higher in Christ, then get off the lot with your junk!
I have come to believe one of the reasons He has allowed this was to give people like me a deeper understanding.
People who were dressed in the most costly clothes, who I thought were some of the most godly among us, have turned out to be the ones who have blowed the most stinking smoke!
Now to some:
You will take this reply and do what you normally do when anyone stands up for the faith which we have received, but you can not take my faith away from me. My faith is not in any man it is in God alone. My faith doesn't mix with cigarette smoke, and my faith does not tolerate, "snakes" my faith gives me enough sense to keep wolves out of my pasture and apparently some of them can't read the signs and have to be dealt with. If a smoker says, "I want to come and learn to live for Christ", he or she is received with open arms. If a wolf says, "I hate the way that I am and I would like to become a sheep", he or she is recieved with open arms.
A good title for a sermon: "Who" is on Your Parking Lot?"
answer: Sheep, Goats and Wolves.
When you open your arms they will all come in and must be seperated for the coming of the LORD!
Place the wolves with the goats and they will destroy one another.
I don't think it would be difficult to come up with the Scriptures to back it up.
PS I count it all joy when I am persecuted for the faith which I have received as a gift from God and I boast in Him for HE IS THE BEGINNING AND THE END and apart from HIM I would be a goat or a wolf but I have Him and I am a Sheep who receives MANNA and WATER from HIS WORD. Yes, I am a member of BBC and I fully support my Pastor and absolutely love the changes that God is making under his leadership.
Dr. Rogers always taught us to go one step higher in our faith and Brother Steve is leading us to amazing heights. I wish ALL people would desire to come and taste the goodness of the Lord. The goodness that Satan is so determined to keep you from knowing. Satan has tried everyway to destroy the work of the Lord and now he is down to hammering away at the sound teaching from the pulpit. Come and see for yourselves with a desire to hear from God and YOU will have the desire of your heart!
Be aware of the parking lot and don't let what you see out there keep you away because when you are one on the inside you see and taste the goodness of having faith in Jesus Christ and singing praises about Him.
Come tonight Dr. Johnny Hunt will be with us and you will receive a blessing.
Billie
OK,
Already cried today but didn't know about the baby.
I guess I will have red, puffy eyes the rest of the day.
How much will this family suffer...
so much in such a short time.
Just seeing the picture of Bro. R and hearing the comfort he still gives his grand daughter I am so gratefull but so sad.
I will just be too emo and sickening if I say anymore about the baby or the family..
Lots going on in all our lives.
I'm glad we had fun together and that we were able to talk about real stuff in such a deep way.
I'm sad that armius is hurt from the other blog.
I'm sad that Mike who cares so much what the world will think of Christians not being kind to each other
would stoop to lying about some immorality in my lfe or unforgivable character flaw that someone he knows who had an encounter with me supposedly has told him.
It seems it is so bad that if Cakes knew the extent of my behavior he would no longer speak highly of me.
I am not afraid of anything Mike Bratton thinks or knows about me.
Mike, please lay my sins out before the world. Don't say "more on that later"
Tell your blog and my blog friends and all the world whatever sin you know about my life.
You cannot hurt me any more than hurt I have lived thru already. I will not be destroyed.
If you are above God and therefore my judge,
PLEASE don't imply or hint.
Tell what unforgivable sin I have in my life that would shame me or turn my friends away from me.
If you know someone that knows me, then you know my real name.
OUT ME.
I am not afraid of your threats or your judgement.
You say I hide behind ungrandmotherly words.
Please don't hide behind your veiled threats.
As someone who has read some on both blogs - no need to worry about Bratton, gmommy. It is plain to see what he is really made of - a tree is known by his fruit - anything he says just makes himself look like the fool.
And a word to all the other bloggsters here in regards to him - Proverbs teaches us not to engage a fool in his folly.
Again Billie, nobody said smokers weren't welcome or that they needed to give up smoking before coming to church. That's a ridiculous accusation on your part but you know that and you're doing it for a reason....
You accuse us as back biting the Pastor, lies, gossip, deceit, etc. But these "attributes" are very much what SG and his cronies are guilty of themselves. We are the ones who have pointed out the sins and lies and deceit that they have brought to BBC. They are the ones who have harmed BBC. We have pointed out many specific examples that prove this is true. But you don't want to deal with the truth. You don't want to deal with the facts. You would rather keep the blinders on and make generalized accusations at the ones who are dutifully standing up for the truth. That's all you have, generalizations. That's why you have to stubbornly glue yourself to the smoking issue. You're beating your own horse on this one because it's the only one you have. And you have to make it up to do it.
You're going to continue to blame us for harming BBC and its testimony. But you have to lie to yourself first so you can ignore the truth -- that SG and his cronies are the ones who have harmed BBC with their lies, criminality, tax fraud, deceit, hate-filled actions, cruelty, intimidation, greed, lack of judgment, Scripture twistings, abuse of the flock, name calling, harboring of a pedophile, etc, etc, etc. And we actually have examples to back that up. That's more than you can say.
And to top it off, you tag us as worse than sexual perverts. Tell that to PW's son. Oh wait, you're probably pretending that never happened.
BTW, you said that one of "our people" approached your husband and you... If you were approached, then I wonder if your husband is in some sort of leadership position. Are you on SG's payroll? Is that why you refuse to deal with the facts? Hmm. Too much to lose, I guess. But I don't want to gossip, so I'll give you a chance to let us know if you do or don't work for SG. Let's not quibble over semantics. Deacon, Minister, SG staff, etc. Are you or are you not a card carrying member (somewhere on the staff or leadership as opposed to just the laity). Again, no gossip. I'm asking you straight out!! Whether or not you answer honestly is up to you.
Oh, and sound teaching doesn't come from twisting the Bible to say what you want it so say just so you can beat the flock into submission. Contrary to what you said, twisting the Bible the way SG does IS a device of the devil.
Wise words, Brian.
Thank you.
:)
Several months ago Ms. Billie wrote:
"We support Brother Steve he has done nothing wrong but you and your people have done much wrong. The majority of the people in Bellevue do not know who has done the worse Paul Williams or the Mark Sharpe, Jim Haywood or ????????? crowd."
Talk about delusional! That's creepy.
Billie said .....
but those who boast that they have Jesus and do the things of the devil are wolves in sheeps clothing. In my opinion, they need to be ran off of the parking lot of BBC (their perfume is stinking up the place and corrupting our children). They take their notes(lies, gossip and deceit) pass it around for others to take home with them and give it to their children) and what is pathetic they do it in the name of Jesus claiming to be God's watchmen guarding His Word.
BBC is not, "Your church" BBC belongs to God and none of you are going to take it away from HIM" He has a plan for BBC and maybe it is to call in the, "smokers" for salvation and spiritual growth. If you are not willing to work with them and love them to a step higher in Christ, then get off the lot with your junk!
JTB: Billie, this is what we have been saying all along. Your statement here is very self-condeming of you and your "leadership". You wolves will run rampant for a while but payday someday, Billie.
gmommy...I am sorry for all the hurt you have been feeling lately.
My question is this...to you and everyone else.....why does anyone care about what MB has to say about anything??? He isn't a member any longer and shouldn't be trying to hurt you with his gossip or comments.
What he thinks about anything shouldn't concern anyone. He is a non-factor to anything going on here.
Please just ignore him, gmommy. Life is too short to worry about his "my friend told me this, that and something else about gmommy".
Billie said...
===============
This is long but remember I do not control the key to the gate!
JTB: Oh please, Billie...give it a rest. This stupid key/gate thing you pretend to practice is just silly.
If you really was concerned about God holding the key, you wouldn't pop in all the time and say such hateful, prideful, totally rediculous babble.
The junk you say, with the prideful and condencending attitude that you say it, just shows that you are speaking for yourself and you are using God as your cover. How blasphemous.
You say you are being persecuted for your faith.. What a JOKE!!! You have No idea what being persecuted for your faith is REALLY about. Ask a missionary who has been kidnapped, beaten, imprisioned just for holding a bible study. Ask a missionary who is mocked because he tries to witness for Christ. Ask a pastor who is cussed out and has the door shut in his face just for witnessing for Christ.
Study scripture. You will see what real persecution is.
You are not being persecuted for your faith. You are just being confronted for acting stupid....just like your leader. You both have no idea what persecution for you faith is.
Miss Billie said: I don't think it would be difficult to come up with the Scriptures to back it up."
Then do it..not for us but for yourself. But beware. You are not allowed to 'proof text' anything like the man you follow.
Go for it. I double dog dare ya!
Assuming error on his part, would it be wrong to stand and correct SG while he is preaching his sermon?
andrew wrote:
"Assuming error on his part, would it be wrong to stand and correct SG while he is preaching his sermon?"
Well, it could certainly be hazardous to your health!
Billie,
Take the dare from lin.
She's a Berean.
I don't think you know that word, do you?
It could be kinda like the Bible drills we used to do.
Elevate this to a level that is civil, maybe even Christian.
I doubt that you can hold a candle, but hey, I have been wrong before.
lin.....
BTW, in a 'private' email Billie assured me that she is in subjection to her husband. Only speaks with his Biblical covering.
So, NOT a 'Miss.'
OK, though my last entry--with its three questions to consider--was many posts prior, now I would add a thought.
Responders have mentioned repentance, and rightly so. These are the days in our lives where the spotlight needs to move toward real repentance, biblical repentance, that spirit of brokenness or "godly sorrow" (2 Corinthians 7:10) that brings regret-free repentance. The absence of repentance would seem the key obstacle to today's churches seeing the mighty movement of God in their midst. Generally, we cry out for revival or reawakening while not remembering repentance as one of God's great requirements for blessing and working through His people. Think about it, how can the holy God bless and use even the redeemed if the redeemed reach a point of unholiness, infected enough by unconfessed sin to render the body tasteless? Even with just the right structure or the right leader resigning or a new leader coming, without the individual and corporate holiness that results from the walk of repentance a church is spinning its wheels in the grossest way. So I agree with those of you who contend that repentance should be the goal of this effort.
But I ask the question implied before... is repentance the goal, or has the goal morphed into simply the deposition of a pastor, or the reclaiming of the way a church once was? Many a warrior has lost sight of the objective from the fog that is the battlefield. I don't pose the question as a rebuke or an indictment. It does, however, probably need to be asked. Check your motivations, dear friends. There'll be no better time to do so than the present.
gmommy, please do not pay attention to the b-blog gossiping. It is all they have left...go after the bloggers here personally hoping to deflect attention from their anointed pope and his antics.
andrew wrote:
"Assuming error on his part, would it be wrong to stand and correct SG while he is preaching his sermon?"
Well, it could certainly be hazardous to your health!
5:43 PM, August 29, 2007
Don't even think about it! At my former seeker mega, about 10 years ago, a man got up during the service to do the same thing to the preacher and got about 2 words out before he was surrounded by security and whisked off to the police station. He was booked and jailed before the service was over.
Whaaat's uuuuuuuuuup?
Cakes here (thesaurus.com),
I find that the Mike and the regulars on his blog, Billie and others, are obviously as injured as the refugees by the leadership fiasco, and their behavior a function of it--since willful blindness to the obvious and loyalty to a jack leg pastor are born of some kind of fear or suffering--and thus deserving of compassion.
Let's please rachet it down on calling folks "fools" and the like, not infer that someone is gay (unless it is me--I get it all the time and used to it), and otherwise let the steaming pies they drop dry up undisturbed in the sun.
Why escalate?
Cakes: I'm with you. Life is to short to confront people that only post to stir things up. Ignore them and they will just go away.
Thanks Lin,
Is it scripturally wrong?
And...
any idea what the formal charge would be?
Who is the property owner (or whatever) that would verify trespassing (or
Blog friends,
I can't read Ms Billie's post because they always make me feel sad instead of mad at her.
I understand why you advise me to blow off what Bratton said and has promised to elaborate on later
concerning my character or morality.
I don't CARE what he thinks.
I'm NOT AFRAID of him.
I AM tired of his bullie tactics.
I AM tired of Bratton defining what is "Christian" for us.
but it doesn't apply to him.
IF he were truly concerned about how people reading this blog see Christians treating each other...
he would NOT make accusations(false or otherwise) towards an unmarried woman he has never met.
He would not go further by saying that my friend Cakes would not think so highly of me IF Cakes knew "the extensiveness of my behavior".
Expose this behavior.
I have been more than open and honest on this blog. Most know that I was involved in the bogus investigation and experienced a break down after the report was read.
Most know the aftermath of that hasn't ended.
Bratton is one elephant I will not ignore. This one is going to clean the "mess" he dropped.
Why should it be ignored?
.
He calls regularly for others to retrack their statements or apologize.
I am not calling for that because I have no desire to control or intimidate others.
I'm saying to Bratton to produce the evidence of this horrible sin you KNOW about me.
Whatever Bratton does...
he shows himself to be exactly what he so self righteously has accused everyone else of.
And the world sees just how THIS Christian treats others.
So please,
make up a lie or
expose my unforgivable sin...
you'll have to be really creative to come up with something immoral.
Either way....you show what your heart is like.
Not mine.
"Andrew said...
Thanks Lin,
Is it scripturally wrong?
And...
any idea what the formal charge would be?
Who is the property owner (or whatever) that would verify trespassing."
Andrew, the guy was arrested for disorderly conduct in public and threatening the pastor. (He was not a member of the church but then lots of people attending mega's are not members)
The disorderly conduct charge stuck, the 'threatening the pastor' charge was thrown out.
Keep in mind that without a mic one cannot even be heard in a mega church without shouting or a bullhorn so what would be the point?
For examples of rebuking 'elders', you can read how Paul rebuked Peter and John rebuked Diotrephes in scripture. But that is a very good question and I would like to hear what some others have learned scripturally about rebuking elders.
Ezekial? Aog? Junk? JTB? All2Jesus?
Rod Almondmartanti said...
I have to at least ask myself, if you are the answer to my first question, Larry.
Mr. Almond,
Again I ask, could you kindly specify which question I'm the answer to?
You can email me your reply me if you'd like.
email
Rod wrote:
"My personal preference is Brit, for now. But for me to tell about what a fantastic synagogue Brit is wouldn't make too much sense to my fellow believers, here on the blog, would it. They are not Messianic. I'm from a Messianic background. It would be foreign to them, for the most part. I would guess."
I think it would be very interesting. Please tell us about it! Is this the synagogue you attend?
Rod: I have known the Shansky's for years....fine family. However, I've lost touch since our children graduated. I didn't know about Gary. I will be praying.
I have had numerous friends that were members of Brit. Best Wished to you.
:)
Thanks, Rod. I'm very interested in learning more. Would you mind e-mailing me? You can remain anonymous if you'd rather.
You said you come from a Messianic background. I'm curious how you ended up at BBC and apparently have now returned to your roots.
cakes wrote:
"Let's please rachet it down on calling folks 'fools' and the like, not infer that someone is gay... "
What?
Cakes: I'm with Nass....where was that?
I met Gary a million years ago exercising at Central Church.
I liked him immediately. I have never forgotten how nice and humble he was.
So sorry to hear about his health.
Thanks Nass...I was clueless about what that stood for.
Someone said someone was gay???
Or is Cakes deflecting us :) :)
well, I thought it was inferred here once about a certain someone, and NASS nipped it in the bud, but it would be against my own advice to spell it out. I could be wrong though; or maybe I just have a dirty mind.
rod:
Once again, I ask you Larry, are you the thought police?
I have to confess ignorance, Mr. Rod, because I don't know what you mean by 'thought police'.
Perhaps you can explain it to me along with sharing which question of yours I'm "the answer to".
Was it whether or not I wrote the letter? No, I didn't. Was it whether I'm one of the 'lost' currently filling Bellevue's auditorium? No, I'm not lost, and I'm not at Bellevue either. Was it whether I'm ignorant of scripture? While I don't claim mastery of God's word, I am not totally ignorant of it.
You've asked a lot of questions, some quite harsh, and I'd like to know which one I'm the answer to if it's not too much trouble to ask.
Rod,
I visited Brit with a friend about 10 years ago. Had a great time!!
Rod wrote:
"Her reply was, no, she wasn't going to scold me, but perhaps you, who asked me to e-mail you, might."
Rod,
It was a joke! Hence the :-) that appeared right after it. I don't know "larry" and had no reason (nor do I now have any) to believe he was going to scold you for anything. Nor was I.
Rod,
I may have gotten you confused about the blog police...so sorry??
When Nass was teasing you and you asked something..
I made a statement referring to the blog police.
I was thinking of a person that rarely posts, then appears out of the blue to ask someone to email him/her or not to talk about this or that.
Not one of our blog friends...just appears to instruct.
I don't know Larry any better than you do and felt bad when I expressed an opinion one time that offended him.
Does anyone have an internist....
preferably a woman but if not, a progressive male that is a thinker and communicates?????
I have been thru all I can take with trying to find a doctor since leaving the deacon.
I have an endocrinologist but need an internist....that does not go to BBC.
Please help.
I had a horrible experience today and would probably still be a basket case if not for the info a blog friend provided from the internet.
I am picking up my test results tomorrow and need someone ASAP.
If you have someone,would you PLEASE send the name to NASS...and if you have any "pull"....could you help me get in.
Rod,
With all due respect, chill! Larry gave you an e-mail address. You can choose to write him or not, but continuing to speculate publicly about someone's motives for wanting to correspond with you privately is an exercise in futility. I've corresponded with him several times and found him to be nice. I suspect you would, too.
As for why I requested you e-mail me, it was simply to chat. Nothing more.
Rod....
hard to know who to trust..
come have fun with us at our next secret meeting.
It's so refreshing after grieving and working thru all the shock, confusion and hurt.
No one thinks they are any big deal....safe environment...
and you get a free kitten if you want one!!!!
gmommy,
how can i get in touch with you about my internist? she's great! you said "contact NASS" but i'm not sure how to do that.
http://www.rbc.org.nz/library/anointed.htm
Old news for some - others, please consider.
For anyone who wants to send "gmommy" the name of a doctor, you can send that information to me (NASS), and I will forward it to her. My e-mail address is in my profile. (That's the "View My Complete Profile" link at the bottom of the "About Me" section on the front page, or my profile can also be accessed by clicking on my screen name at the top of any of my comments -- this one for example.)
Rod,
I've long been involved in a ministry that touched base at several churches so it was not a big deal for me to leave Bellevue. Others are not so blessed.
I've had over 100 friends, some quite close, leave BBC with nowhere to go. I've been trying to help as many as I can find a new church home. I'm trying to learn as much as I can about our churches' preaching, their worship styles, the atmosphere, even the parking. (I've discovered that if a church's parking lot seems to small then it's a good church.) The more I know, the better recommendation I can make.
My questions for you were about First Evan. I don't want to discuss a church on the blog, because it's inevitable that someone will contribute mistaken information or express personal opinions. Since you have not been attending there, I will continue finding out about them from whomever I can.
gmommy,
I was not upset about your comments at all. The thing is, if you had negative feelings about what I wrote then it was inevitable that others did too. That was why I stopped posting. However, for some reason a 'bogus Larry' tried to continue one of my posts one day, so I think I'd better keep checking in from time to time.
Larry,
That "bogus larry" you refer to wasn't trying to steal your identity. I got to the bottom of that. It was simply someone logging in with the wrong account.
Thanks NASS!
You run a very tight ship!
Thank you for the emails today with doctors names.
I appreciate it very much!
One of them hopefully will see me quickly.
It's amazing that the fall out at BBC has even affected the ability to get medical attention.
I am very sincere when I say how grateful I am for our blog and for the support it has given me thru all this.
gmommy said...
Rod....
hard to know who to trust..
come have fun with us at our next secret meeting.
It's so refreshing after grieving and working thru all the shock, confusion and hurt.
No one thinks they are any big deal....safe environment...
and you get a free kitten if you want one!!!!
12:14 AM, August 30, 2007
PowerMommy,
And with a clean bill of health, I might add.
4 Kitty's went thru surgery yesterday with flying colors and are going to be ready for lots of love in the next few days.
GMommy, of course you get first choice.
For free healthy kitty's to a good home contact NASS.
Hey Blog friends,
I have an appt.at 10:15 in the morning!!!Thank You so much!!!!
for some reason a 'bogus Larry' tried to continue one of my posts one day, so I think I'd better keep checking in from time to time.
I feel like I need to apologize to the other 'larry' for that statement. I think I've corresponded with him by email, and hopefully no offense was taken. :-)
Feel free to call me the 'real bogus larry' anytime...
Lin said...
Miss Billie said: I don't think it would be difficult to come up with the Scriptures to back it up."
Then do it..not for us but for yourself. But beware. You are not allowed to 'proof text' anything like the man you follow.
Go for it. I double dog dare ya!
5:32 PM, August 29, 2007
The Word of God replies:
"For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in Spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present."
"In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in Spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,"
I have decided to deliver such a one(goat) to Satan(wolf) for the DESTRUCTION of his flesh, so that his(goat)spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
and then HE goes on to chastize the people for NOT having already done it asking them, "Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?"
The WORD of God has rebuked you but of course I am the only target you see to shoot.
Let me say that some of you are not hard hearted yet but if you continue the path that you are on you will become hardened.
I do come here to share my faith from time to time with you, but I refuse to allow you, anyone or anything to consume my time and energy away from loving Jesus and giving Him 1st place in my life.
I learned years ago that you can hate what is wrong (sin) in your life and let your mind dwell on that sin so much that the hate of the sin becomes your false god.
Some of you have made the man you have decided to hate your false god while accusing, those who accept him as their God appointed leader, of worshiping him as their god.
God will not tolerate false gods in the lives of His children. He did not tolerate it with the children of Israel.
Many people made a false god out of Pastor Rogers and still to this day long to have him back. HE will not come back but if he could he would be the first to chastize those who constantly compare Brother Steve with him because he knows the mistakes that he made that were never put under your microscope.
To make a career of discrediting someone you dislike or building up someone that you do like is WRONG.
Let it be made known that I do NOT come her to build up Pastor Steve or to lift up myself, if that were my intentions it would be totally against what I know to be true according to God's Word.
As some of you have so rightly stated, it would do the opposite.
My intention is to rebuke in the name of Jesus Christ those who are causing difficulties and heartaches among a body of believers who truely desire to love, serve, and worship the Lord.
You accuse me of attacking in anger but I am not angry. If my intentions were wrong I would be very angry with some of the accusations that are made.
It is obvious that anyone who points a finger have three pointing back at them. I, like Isaiah and Nehemiah say, "Woe is me and my people" and I add, "We have dug a deep hole that we must turn to God's Word, get the precepts and do them in order to climb out of it" All we have to rely upon is God who gives to us as we pray and study His Word.
One of Dr. Roger's statements, "If you don't agree with the Word I have given to you; take it up with the Lord" This applies here, 1st Cor. 5
This email is not intended for all who read it, but only for those who are guilty and we all know when the shoe fits.
This fight is not over Brother Gaines it is over the TRUTH of God's Word. Brother Steve is a innocent victim. I do not mean that he is perfect so don't go there!
Billie
Lin said...
Miss Billie said: I don't think it would be difficult to come up with the Scriptures to back it up."
Then do it..not for us but for yourself. But beware. You are not allowed to 'proof text' anything like the man you follow.
Go for it. I double dog dare ya!
Hi, Lin,
I thought of you when I read the sentence you quoted. I wondered to myself if you'd comment.
I expected you to be the one who would point out that starting out with a presupposition or an idea and then seeking to "come up with the Scriptures to back it up" is the exact opposite of how we should approach the Bible.
:)
My comments on Bratton's blog today at 2:30 PM:
Mike,
Regarding your alleged information about Gmommy, let me remind you that statements of fact are one thing and opinions are another; however, unsubstantiated insinuations attacking a person’s character and integrity are not to be put forth lightly – and most certainly not from one who professes to follow Christ.
Mike, I’m asking you to end this NOW by putting forth your facts, if you indeed have facts, or by stating your own opinion and labeling it as such. If you can do neither, then I suggest you point your accusatory keyboard in Gmommy’s direction and make a very PUBLIC apology to her.
To do anything less is to lump yourself into the same category as the guy who knows the inside scoop because he knows a guy whose cousin’s brother-in-law owned a Dairy Queen down the street from the barber shop where Elvis had his hair styled one Saturday afternoon in October of 1956.
I realize you may see patterns and pictures that other people cannot see, as did the visionary in “A Beautiful Mind,” and Mike, I hate to burst your bubble of self-importance, but Russell Crowe got that part – not you!
Mike, Gmommy has done nothing to you and she does not deserve this accusatory treatment. End it now!
Mary
The post at 1:26 PM today would be funny if it weren't so tragically sad that the author believes it.
Feel free to call me the 'real bogus larry' anytime...
1:19 PM, August 30, 2007
That is hysterical! Good one, Larry.
"What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine"
by Ray Baumann
Article.
billie said:
Brother Steve is a innocent victim.
1:44 PM, August 30, 2007
Ha!!! Hold on. I'm not done laughing yet....
Did you notice her application of Scripture was patently generic? I know she's probably going to accuse me of saying that Scripture itself is generic. That's not what I said. I said her APPLICATION is generic.
She conveniently forgets that SG constantly puts down Pastor AR to make himself look and feel better. The man is dead! How pathetic do you have to be to continually put down AR? Geeze.
Oh yeah. And she still hasn't dealt with any of the facts we have presented to her.
Nass, can we just go ahead and classify her as a troll already?
From the Bratton blog at 3:34 PM today:
Mike Bratton said...
Ladies and gentlemen, let me take a moment to apologize.
In the blizzard of pseudonyms, I have confused the identities of two Forum members who've engaged in despicable off-the-blog activities, thinking that one of them was the poster who identifies as "Gmommy" when she was not. While the activities in question are reported by an unimpeachable source, "Gmommy" was not one of the individuals involved.
Though her on-the-blog publications are loaded with regrettable statements, and while I make no apology for asking her to stop making hate-laden comments, I was wrong in suggesting I knew of any illicit off-the-blog activities on her part.
I was wrong, and "Gmommy," I apologize.
--Mike
3:34 PM, August 30, 2007
New BBC Open Forum said...
"What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine"
by Ray Baumann
Article.
Excellent, and spot on. Thanks, NASS, for sharing.
"The Word of God replies:
"For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in Spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.""
I agree. That does apply to Gaines. And shame on you for not quoting the first part which explains these 2 verses. Here is the first part of 1 Corin 5:
1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
Pay close attention to verse 2. They did not mourn the sin. They ignored it. Just like Gaines did. And they did not remove the person in the Corinthian church just as Gaiens did not. The ONLY difference is that Paul does not tell us if the unrepentant sinner is a minister of prayer (elder)or not which makes the situation at BBC even worse. PW was ONLY removed when the outcry became so bad that Gaines had to.
"The WORD of God has rebuked you but of course I am the only target you see to shoot."
Ok, in context of the above scripture: Who have we (the bloggers here) not removed from the Body of Christ who is in sexual sin? That is what these verses are talking about. Please tell us who we have protected who is in sexual sin.
"Let me say that some of you are not hard hearted yet but if you continue the path that you are on you will become hardened."
Miss Billie, you are blind. You take verses and proof text them just like you are taught to do by your 'pastor'.
"I do come here to share my faith from time to time with you, but I refuse to allow you, anyone or anything to consume my time and energy away from loving Jesus and giving Him 1st place in my life."
If He had first place in your life, you would understand scripture in context instead of trying to make it fit your own surreal and bizarre premises.
"I learned years ago that you can hate what is wrong (sin) in your life and let your mind dwell on that sin so much that the hate of the sin becomes your false god."
Miss Billie, that is the most wacko thing I have ever heard. No wonder the blatent sins of Gaines do not bother you much. Satan loves that about you that you have decided not to let your sin bother you too much.
Without 'godly' sorrow over our sin we cannot truly repent. WE can NEVER really understand the Good News until we have really understood the BAD NEWS about ourselves. Someone who truly loves the Lord will hate their sin..just as God hates our sin.
"Some of you have made the man you have decided to hate your false god while accusing, those who accept him as their God appointed leader, of worshiping him as their god. "
No one that I know of here hates Gaines. Maybe we love him MORE than you do. We are to 'Contend for the Faith'. God does not 'appoint' false teachers. He allows them. Listen to this:
3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
This passage in Jude is written to the church. The BODY. We are ALL to Contend for the Faith...but Jude also tells us that those who turn the Grace of our Lord into licetiousness were marked out for condemnation long ago. This tells us how seriously we must take the WORD OF GOD. EVERY JOT AND TITTLE.
"God will not tolerate false gods in the lives of His children. He did not tolerate it with the children of Israel."
Not all professing believers will be saved. (Matthew 7)
What do you mean by this statement? Because HE states in His Word that he allows the wheat and tares to grow together until Judgement Day.
"Many people made a false god out of Pastor Rogers and still to this day long to have him back. HE will not come back but if he could he would be the first to chastize those who constantly compare Brother Steve with him because he knows the mistakes that he made that were never put under your microscope."
Our 'comparison' is Christ. Not Gaines, Not Rogers, etc. Judge Gaines' words and actions by the Word.
"To make a career of discrediting someone you dislike or building up someone that you do like is WRONG."
To Contend for the Faith is never wrong. There is a lot of false teaching out there. Some of it is on purpose for personal gain. Some of it is just plain old ignorance. I put you in that latter category. 1 Timothy talks about those who are deceived. Paul is very compassionate with those because he, himself was once ignorant of the truth. But, he does tell Timothy to deal with them.
"Let it be made known that I do NOT come her to build up Pastor Steve or to lift up myself, if that were my intentions it would be totally against what I know to be true according to God's Word."
Then why are you here? You certainly are not here to teach the Word because you do not understand it well enough to do that, unfortuantly. YOu completely misunderstood 1 Corinthians 5.
"My intention is to rebuke in the name of Jesus Christ those who are causing difficulties and heartaches among a body of believers who truely desire to love, serve, and worship the Lord."
You do that, Miss Billie, by FIRST following the Word totally and in context praying for the Holy Spirit to teach you. You did NOT get your 'interpretation' of 1 Corinthians 5 from the Holy Spirit.
And you must be Obediant to HIS WORD. Anything else is just vain and empty. He left us HIS WORD for a reason and the HOLY SPIRIT teaches us. Gaines IS NOT Obediant to the Word. He twists it and ignores it when inconvenient.
" I, like Isaiah and Nehemiah say, "Woe is me and my people" and I add, "We have dug a deep hole that we must turn to God's Word, get the precepts and do them in order to climb out of it" All we have to rely upon is God who gives to us as we pray and study His Word. "
Miss Billie, you simply do not understand what you are reading or you would RUN out of that false church because your pastor ignores and twists the Word. You would be able to discern that but you cannot. You should be very concerned. I am very concerned for you. All that silly 'gate' stuff you go on about is one step away from Jan Crouch for crying out loud.
"One of Dr. Roger's statements, "If you don't agree with the Word I have given to you; take it up with the Lord" This applies here, 1st Cor. 5"
How could it, Miss Billie, when you did not even understand the context of what you quoted? It is really sad. I am not angry with you...I am seriously concerned for you.
"This fight is not over Brother Gaines it is over the TRUTH of God's Word."
If ONLY you really knew that. But it IS over the fact that Gaines has twisted and ignored the Word. That means we must contend for the truth that was given to the saints. See, Miss Billie, if one is really saved then they are 'anointed'. All true believers are anointed. All true believers MUST contend for the faith. If we don't we will answer for it.
"Brother Steve is a innocent victim. I do not mean that he is perfect so don't go there!"
So, based on that statement then we must believe that he is one of the decieved who is merely ignorant of the Word?
How else do you explain his lapse over 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 5 when it came to the PW situation? How do you explain that? Is he ignorant and does not know what it means? OR did he CHOOSE to ignore it? Which one is it?
Miss Billie, you remind me of all the women I met in the 1990's who just could not see Bill Clinton for what he really was. They wanted to be blind about him.
junkster....
Not sad. It is hilarious. That person teaches a Sunday School class at a well-known Baptist church. If that level of thinking (sorry, that's stretching) is dominant there, 'Houston, we have a problem!'
I enjoy the banter on here. Many times it is stimulating to the thought process. I do think this woman is sincere, but I have never felt so strongly that someone like her is totally off base.
I feel she probably lives at this same level with family and friends. It has to be personality based.
"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things" (Phil. 4:8).
From a writing of A.B. Simpson on this verse:
Good manners, refinement, and courtesy are among the things that are lovely and attractive in our Christian example. There is an affectation of refinement that is but the gloss and the counterfeit, but the true follower of Jesus Christ will always be gentle and gentlemanly, considerate of others and careful to avoid offense, and will act toward all with whom he comes in contact with that thoughtful consideration and courteous politeness which speak so strongly for Christ. After the greatest gentleman in Europe, Lord Chesterfield, had spent a few days with Archbishop Fenelon, who was as sweet as he was saintly, he remarked, "If I had stayed much longer I should have been charmed into accepting his religion." "Be courteous" is one of the commands of the Holy Ghost. The Christian lady and the Christian gentleman will carry their good manners into the kitchen and the factory, as well as into the social circle; the wife will be as polite to her husband and her cook as she is to the fashionable caller in the afternoon. The parent will be as gentle and considerate in speaking to his child, as when called to receive some distinguished visitor, or in wearing some courtly air on a great public occasion. Let us adorn the little things and the commonplaces of life with that "manner of love," which "the Father hath bestowed upon us," and which He would have us reflect.
***This is our challenge. Billie's approach is accusatory, destructive and bombastic. God help all of us to submit to the Spirit in all aspects of our lives so that even if the world views us, there will be no doubt who we are!***
Mrs. Billie, Mrs. Billie....Bless your sweet heart.
You said: "This fight is not over Brother Gaines it is over the TRUTH of God's Word. Brother Steve is a innocent victim."
Isn't it wonderful that we can agree....It IS over the TRUTH of God's Word. However, Bro. Steve is in a situation made of his own poor choices (he is not a "victim") and those choices have radically impacted thousands of people. Bro. Steve really needs to discover the TRUTH of God's Word regarding repentance and leadership.
In Christian love, I pray for that to happen.
"I expected you to be the one who would point out that starting out with a presupposition or an idea and then seeking to "come up with the Scriptures to back it up" is the exact opposite of how we should approach the Bible."
Know what, Junk? I have lots of compassion for Miss Billie. I used to do exactly the same thing. Always looking for that scripture to back myself up. It is a horrible way to live. It is not of truth.
When I FINALLY started reading the Word prayerfully to be taught, I had a quite a bit of repenting to do.
I even have a friend who did the same thing and wrote letters to all her former SS pupils apologizing for how she taught them and begging them to get deep
into the Word because she was wrong so much and she had that on her conscious. I thought that was so brave of her!
We just can no longer blindly trust what is taught in the pulpits today. We gotta be B's.
And you know what? The more we read, the more we find out how little we know.
As EZ well knows...everytime we read a book of the Bible, we learn something we did not see before. I have studied the creation account about 6x in the last few months and each time I learn something new and make connections I did not see before. God is so wonderful how He unfolds His truth when we are obedient. Praise His Thrice Holy Name.
NBBCOF: The article by Ray Baunann was most interesting. One sentence that caught my attention was "If attendance is the only sign of success, then it doesn't matter what is being preached because we think God is blessing because people are showing up." Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas is a prime example. They meet in a facility that seats 18,000 and there are three services each weekend. Joel Osteen doesn't preach the bible. He preaches Joel Osteen. And by the way, they don't have to be careful with their TV program showing empty seats. There are none. Go figure.
Lin: Miss Billie is not worth that much typing.
Amazed: Joel Osteen's Church: It's Easy Believism. People go because it makes them feel good about themselves but it is empty of meat. They are starving to death and don't even feel the hunger pains.
:-(
"Lin: Miss Billie is not worth that much typing. "
I disagree. And, when scripture is misused publicly we have a duty before us.
Be ye rebuked Truthseekers, saith Billie. Shame on you Truthseekers, you have caused difficulties and heartaches among a body of believers who want to love, serve and worship the Lord.
Be ye commended Truthseekers, saith Lily. Seeking the truth can be difficult, but better to seek the truth and be warriors of the Word than stick your head in the sand and rely solely on your own self righteousness.
Be ye prayerful Truthseekers for many have suffered heartaches, and many of those know not the Truth.
P.S. to Ms. Billie – Please provide the scripture where the Word of God has rebuked the Truthseekers.
Ms Billie said:
"This fight is not over Brother Gaines it is over the TRUTH of God's Word. Brother Steve is a innocent victim."
"a victim like Michael Jackson is a victim!"
Get real!!!
"Brother Steve is a innocent victim. I do not mean that he is perfect so don't go there!"
Where the heck is my duct tape. My head is about to explode reading that line. Steve Gaines isn't a victim...he's the culprit.
There is no comparison to Dr. Rogers! In him you had the mind of a scholar, the heart of an evangelist and the tenderness of a Pastor! There is no comparison!
When I read the minutes of the meeting and the statement was made about your current Pastor spending more time at the office it was laughable....Dr. Rogers studied at home.....and as Dr. Lee so eloquently stated it....you can't eat skim milk all week and preach cream on Sunday.
Dr. Rogers was always prepared to bring the Word of God
(Cream) to the people of God...always!
For those who have listened and met Dr. Rogers….you realize, to compare….is to look foolish, It’s like comparing an Eagle (Dr. Rogers) to a hummingbird!
I fully understand that the Church must move on.....you can't stay in the past......but folks your past was glorious....and for 32 wonderful years you had the greatest Preacher, Statesman...and Church builder in the history of the Southern Baptist Convention.
Remember talent sometimes gets you to a place …where a lack of character will not keep you!
Please don’t misunderstand, I know and you know Dr. Rogers was human…..yet what a man of God!
There are other men…who will seek God’s face, and heart….may they come boldly….yet humbly to positions of leadership in our American pulpits and around the world!
Praying that there will be a revival of humble, Godly, Christ filled and led Pastors in our pulpits!
And now from the Bellevue Messenger:
♫♪♫
Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.
There's nothing you can do that can't be done.
Nothing you can sing that can't be sung.
Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
It's easy.
There's nothing you can make that can't be made.
No one you can save that can't be saved.
Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be in time
It's easy.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
There's nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
All you need is love (all together now)
All you need is love (everybody)
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
Lyrics - The Beatles.
I didn't like that song when I heard it the first time and I still don't care for it at all, but that is what immediately came to mind when I read the Love Memphis section.
Lin: Miss Billie is not even a blip on the radar screen when it comes to misuse of scripture. It is being done from pulpits across the nation, all faiths, and the worst culprits are the ones that use TV as their main outreach. They are preying on the ones that can least afford to be involved.
Steve Gaines climbs a fence...he's the victim
Steve Gaines lies about the size of the fence, he's the victim
Steve Gaines goes to Union City, TN and slams his own sheep....he's the victim
Steve Gaines calls Mark Sharpe
"Hezbollah", he's the victim
Steve Gaines, refusing to preach on Wednesday nights so that he can spend time with his family, only two nights later to go to another church ( on a wed. night) and preach for $$$$ .....he's the victim
Steve Gaines allowing a confessed sexual pervert to remain on staff...he's the victim
Steve Gaines refusing to follow Matthew 18, he's the victim
Steve Gaines fleecing his own sheep with trips to the Holy Land, he's the victim
Steve Gaines refuses to follow State Law in releasing financial information , he's the victim
Steve reportedly makes close to $500,000 in salary...but let's cut it in half, just for the sake of arguement..he's the victim..
Poor Steve.
I"m just sitting here, crying my eyes out for poor Steve.
I don't know how he manages to get up in the mornings..his life is so rough...
How can he manage on that little money?
His sermons are full of love for his sheep, you can tell it by the way the worship center is so full.
sniff, sniff, does anyone have a kleenex?
"Lin: Miss Billie is not even a blip on the radar screen when it comes to misuse of scripture. It is being done from pulpits across the nation, all faiths, and the worst culprits are the ones that use TV as their main outreach. They are preying on the ones that can least afford to be involved."
She is a blip on MY radar right now. I am not sure I understand you, Amazed. First you complain because we actually quote scripture in context here on the blog.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but now you seem to imply we should just ignore it when someone blatently teaches scripture falsely on this blog because there is so much of it out there? What is your point? I don't seem to understand you.
Lin: She IS NOT preaching to a group that will fall for anything she has to say. She has no credibility and no gullible audience. Now is that a little clearer?
Lin: She IS NOT preaching to a group that will fall for anything she has to say. She has no credibility and no gullible audience. Now is that a little clearer?
8:30 PM, August 30, 2007
What audience? You mean anyone who reads the blog?
amazed,
A TV evangelist is seen in his local market, and further if his sermons are broadcast on cable.
The posts here are visible all over the world. Wherever there is an internet gateway, this blog can be read.
Even if no one outside of Memphis reads our posts (doubtful), there are still many lurkers in our own city who do not post.
If lin feels she needs to counter questionable statements, then we shouldn't discourage her. We should instead pray that she is able to counter erroneous statements in a way that is corrective to the person who posts them and edifying to those who need to receive the truth.
If you'll take your cursor and left click on the word 'said' in the 'lin said...' or 'junkster said...' line, the post will be collapsed and you won't have to read it or scroll past it if it's lengthy.
Personally, I don't plan on doing that any time soon.
Oh, and by the way,
It works on 'Billie said...' too!
Folks, get out your quote book again....
truett said: "Remember talent sometimes gets you to a place …where a lack of character will not keep you!"
Character is who you are when no one is looking.
Mark Dougharty teaching 3rd grade now?
I've heard everything! He's gone from Associate Pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church under Dr. Adrian Rogers to teaching 3rd grade Sunday School at Bellevue via Atlanta for three weeks. (Nothing greater than teaching Sunday School) Perhaps next week, he'll be back on staff in the Missions Department.
I've got the first couple of lessons that will carry the class for the month of September.
1. Do not lie
and
2. Do not trespass
bible,
Please make your profile visible if you're going to post comments.
Regarding your comment... are you kidding?
NBBCOF
concernedSBCer said...
Mrs. Billie, Mrs. Billie....Bless your sweet heart.
You said: "This fight is not over Brother Gaines it is over the TRUTH of God's Word. Brother Steve is a innocent victim."
Isn't it wonderful that we can agree....It IS over the TRUTH of God's Word. However, Bro. Steve is in a situation made of his own poor choices (he is not a "victim") and those choices have radically impacted thousands of people. Bro. Steve really needs to discover the TRUTH of God's Word regarding repentance and leadership.
In Christian love, I pray for that to happen.
3:57 PM, August 30, 2007
Reply to all others:
1. If you have not been in the Word long enough to filter statements through the knowledge of the Word hidden in your heart, you would not understand how anyone can have a Biblical based thought and then go to the Word to quote the Scripture where the precept came from.
2. You are correct that it is best to first quote the Scripture.
3. You are wrong to believe that you are innocent victims of the poor decisions of Pastor Steve.
4. You are wrong to beleive that you are not responsible for as much or more harm to the body of Christ than the Pastor. The media reaches a lot of souls and Brother Gaines did NOT do that, you did.
5. The Scripture that you quote is TRUTH and the Scripture the Pastor quotes is TRUTH, the Scripture I quote is TRUTH. Get it down and get it straight!!!!
The problem is not in the Scripture or the theology taught from it. THE PROBLEM IS YOU PLACE EVERYONE IN THE JUDGEMENT SEAT EXCEPT YOURSELF and we all belong there from time to time.
6. There is something wrong when a person reads the Word of God and never sees his or her own ungodliness.
A God fearing, humble preacher or teacher knows that God works first on the messenger before the Holy Spirit allows them to preach or teach others. >The Pastor preaches some awesome sermons<
7. If WE ALL place ourselves under the Hand of God's judgement regarding our sins, problems would be solved because everyone would be asking for forgiveness.
We are each responsible for ourselves and what we do with the TRUTH of His Word. The problem is not the TRUTH the problem is people do not want to face it. You demand for others to live by it but do you?
This time I will let you look up the Scriptures to disprove the concepts.
Written in love with Jesus,
Billie
He desires for all to come to Him for healing of the soul!
Lin: Yes. Us. Folks, lets don't get carried away thinking the whole world is interested in this blog. Most people don't even know it exists. The ones that are interested, can decern twisted scripture when they read it. SG does a good job of twisting scripture to fit his agenda, but I'm not about to call him up and tell him so.
new,
I think I fixed it.
Sorry I'm not kidding.
That is no joking matter.
Billie Said...
4. You are wrong to beleive that you are not responsible for as much or more harm to the body of Christ than the Pastor. The media reaches a lot of souls and Brother Gaines did NOT do that, you did.
Lynn with Duct Tape Wrapped Around His Head Said....
Funny you mention that we do more harm to the body of Christ than the pastor. We do not do the damages. Gaines does. He is the one who lied to the congregation. He is the one who harbored a pedophile for 6 months. He's the one beating the sheep in his sermons. He's the one putting down Dr. Rogers. He's the one who called those who disagree with him TRASH. Yeah, I say he's done more damage to the body of Christ than a Catagory 5 Hurricane does to a coastal area. Now excuse me while I wrap my head in more duct tape to keep my head from exploding.
amazed,
Of course, "most people" don't know this blog exists, but we reached 500,000 hits today. Unlike some sites' counters, this sitemeter doesn't increment when you refresh the page. As I write this we have readers in 15 different states plus Tennessee. I routinely see hits from England, Canada, Macedonia, and Spain, among others. So don't tell me there aren't people scattered all over the world watching this blog.
That should be a reminder to everyone to temper your comments accordingly!
Heads up folks!!
BBC is doing away with Prime Time for the 7th thru 8th grades on Wednesday nights.
Instead, they are combining 7th thru 12th grades in Exit 15.
I guess no sense in having two different services when just one will do.
For the first time since I can remember, there will be no student directory this year. Why do you think that is?
I'll tell you why: becuase if you were to see how many people have left BBC via the directory, people might get the idea that leadership is lying when they say: " nothing is wrong, everything is great"
You know.....every time I go to my church and sit under those teaching the pure Word, I get my toes stepped on! That's very humbling! The Word of God is a two-edged sword. He shows me pretty clearly when I sin and it doesn't take the Holy Spirit long to convict me in a strong way. The Holy Spirit has a way of getting my attention and I pretty quickly need and want to repent.
I can't recall it taking me 6 months.....or 17 years.......
"Those that have ears, let them hear the message to the churches......"
Lynn wrote:
"He's the one who called those who disagree with him TRASH."
Actually, Lynn, I think that was a quote from Donna Gaines. Credit where credit is due....
Amazed - With all due respect, if the Pastor and his camp really thought nobody read this blog, they wouldn't have SS teachers telling the children how evil it is. And they wouldn't take every chance they get to bad-mouth it. I'm not saying you're part of that camp. I don't know you either way. But clearly, people are reading this blog. And even if there is doubt as to who does and does not read this blog, the mere possibility that someone may walk away thinking that billie's sad interpretation of Scripture is truth should be enough to appreciate lin's wonderful corrections.
billie - blah blah blah. All you said can be amounted to just that. Babbling. You put a lot of effort into NOT dealing with the facts we've presented about SG. Same thing, different day.
And btw, I can see why you're going to leave it up to us to find Scriptural references. The last time you tried, you failed miserably and lin had to come in and spank you, so to speak. I can see why you would shy away from looking like a fool again.
bible said:
Mark Dougharty teaching 3rd grade now?
I've heard everything! He's gone from Associate Pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church under Dr. Adrian Rogers to teaching 3rd grade Sunday School at Bellevue via Atlanta for three weeks. (Nothing greater than teaching Sunday School).
oc says:
See God's grace in action? The undeserving being blessed.
What bigger privilege would there be than to teach God's Word to the most impressionable in the Kingdom?
I think MD got a promotion, in my estimation.
But somehow, that worries me quite a bit.....
Just sayin'.
oc.
bible,
How did you come to know this info about MD?????
"As EZ well knows...everytime we read a book of the Bible, we learn something we did not see before. I have studied the creation account about 6x in the last few months and each time I learn something new and make connections I did not see before. God is so wonderful how He unfolds His truth when we are obedient. Praise His Thrice Holy Name."
Yes! the more I read Him, the more He shows me!
I can show you where as individuals,( "saved" ..delivered from bondage..."Egypt"), we are in the Wilderness of Sin, wandering around and being tested. Just like Israel was and...Is.....We keep turning back to Egypt. See Ezekiel Prophecy...unfulfilled.
I can show you where we are as a church. Just as Jeruselem was in the days of the famine, the days of the seige. Just as He judged Jerusalem, His judgement today begins with us. The church. See Jeremiah.
The struggle I have is being able to communicate it. Then I realized why. The Word speaks in parables today.
Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘ Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should[a]heal them.’[b] 16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
Everything has to start with a soft, humble heart. Usually, one that He has softened and humbled.
I cannot stress the importance of reading the WORD daily!
32years,
You’re most welcome! Writing about Dr. Rogers comes easy for me....I first met him around 1981 or so....I was a College student and I heard him preach for the first time.....wow!
Afterword I stood in line to meet him....he was so kind looked intently in my eyes and displayed a humility....that I remember to this very moment!
Coincidently....another well known Pastor preached that night.....He was the opposite of Dr. Rogers......dismissive, distant.......cold as ice.
I spoke to Dr. Rogers on just three more occasions….in the 20+ years that followed each time....he was warm, kind, unhurried, thoughtful and ......well Dr. Rogers a man who reflected the indwelling Christ!
I miss him.....very much.....but am comforted that Believers never say goodbye for the final time.
I think what hurts me the most in all of this......is to see a once great Church....slowly, but steadily eroding away because of arrogance, haughtiness......and people who stand in places....that once were occupied by such Godly humble servants.
They are people who convey a since of entitlement.
Another voice speaking of another issue….sums up my thinking of the current Bellevue dilemma….
The current Lilliputians have ambled into an institution that they did nothing to build and do not understand at all.
Well, about that transcript...
Some have posted that they thought that MS and RE were a bit soft with SG. Perhaps, but arly this morning I ran across the following verses and wondered if they are applicable.
scorner - a person who expresses contempt by remarks or facial expression
scoffer - someone who jeers or mocks or treats something with contempt or calls out in derision
derision - the act of deriding or treating with contempt
Proverbs 25:15
15 By forbearance a ruler may be persuaded, and a soft tongue breaks the bone.
Prov 15:1-2,10,12
1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
2 The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness.
10 Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.
12 A scorner loveth not one that reproveth him: neither will he go unto the wise.
Prov 9:8
8 Do not reprove a scoffer, lest he hate you, reprove a wise man, and he will love you.
1 Tim 5:1
1 Rebuke (epiplesso - to beat upon, chastise with words) not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
The main point here is to note that we are to respect one another regardless of age or gender.
1 Tim 5:19-22
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20 Them that sin rebuke (elegcho) before all, that others also may fear.
21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
Notice here, just verses later, Paul is using a different Greek word for rebuke (elegcho) - to convict, to refute, to expose, to call to account, to show one his fault, to demand an explanation, to chasten, to punish
We are not to be abusive, call into question without 2-3 witnesses, quick and thus careless, or be generally disrespectful to an older man in or out of authority...BUT if the witnesses prove trustworthy or enough of us witness the offense ourselves we are called to rebuke, and without partiality. Position, name or age does not protect you from rebuke you have earned.
Well perhaps I've gotten carried away here in sharing my studies. The bottom line is that I think, all things considered, that MS and RE went to a brother who they had serious concerns about and attempted to address them respectfully. I think they took a solid step 1. I believe it would have been flesh to go in there, guns-a-blazing with accusations and ultimatums.
Now, are we at step 2 yet...?
Nite all. I'd be happy to be corrected if I've slipped into error here.
andrew - Great post! I appreciate the small Greek lesson. It always helps to know the original words so we can keep it in true context. =)
And you're right. Part of me wanted RE & MS to go in there and bite SG's head off. But another part of me thought of the verse you quoted:
Prov 15:1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
It did occur to me that this is the mindset RE & MS adopted for this meeting.
As to whether or not it's time for step 2? I would say yes since it was clear that SG wouldn't even entertain the possibility of any wrong doing on his part.
But then again, I was ready for step 2 during step 1 (because I'm so sick of this mess) and I'm not the one in the front lines here. So, obviously, thats up to RE, MS and others in the trenches to decide.
God bless you guys in making such decisions. And thank you for being willing to do the hard work some of us are not able to do (or are too afraid to do) ourselves.
For those (like Billie) who think we who have a problem with the "new" Bellevue are Adrian Rogers worshippers and will never be content again without him, please consider what I'm about to say: By his personal conduct, his love for God and God's Word, his love for God's people, his warmth and cheerful countenance. his courageous battle for the inerrancy of God's Word being taught in the SBC seminaries,
he taught us by example what it means to be a man or woman of God.
He was a man of integrity. No one ever refuted that - not even those who disagreed with him. I am weary of his legacy being marred and those of us who loved and respected him being called Adrian-
worshippers. Dr. R was a man - he was not God. But he was a man after God's own heart. He never claimed to be perfect - far from it. He would stand behind the pulpit and tell us that. But he never brought shame upon his Lord, his church nor his family. He showed us by his life a standard to live by. May I also say that many who have left Bellevue and are now sitting under the teaching of godly pastors are being refreshed, renewed and restored.
The premise that they can never be happy without Dr. Rogers is therefore refuted.
For those who have chosen to stay and are happy with the "new" Bellevue, that is certainly your choice to make. But please do not denigrate the man who stood behind that pulpit for 32 yrs. nor those who loved and respected him in order to build up the one who is now standing behind that sacred pulpit - or to judge those who have chosen to leave.
Housewife,
I too have felt outrage at such events as retaining PW, and giving $25,000 so foolishly...both of which I have not seen or heard of the top administration repenting or demonstrating a change of heart/values in any way. As an aside, policy change does not mandate or indicate value changes. Our values/convictions will always over-ride policy and rules and law. What we have now is an effort to constrain values/convictions/actions with policy and procedure and that dam will never hold for long.
Anyway, we must remember that when MS and RE met with SG it was the early stages of all this.
Since then many more problems and error have become known and yes, the pressure continues to build.
September 12 is Dr. Roger's birthday.
( just to let ya know)
billie,
Lets start out with:
1 Cor 5
This PW fiaso was not handled per scripture. Can we agree on that?
Then we have:
Grace turned into a liscense
Who is to say that if it happens again tomorrow, God forbid!, that we don't just brush it off and say, "its under the blood" or "covered by grace"?
Then we have:
Perverting Justice
You may consider this just too small to matter, maybe it is a law and "we are no longer under the law".
I argue that we have in fact, perverted justice by not seeking justice for those damaged by this mess. The pastor then turned grace into a liscense for PW to walk away, all the while saying that he would take him back if he could.
So, we have failed the victims, and failed PW. No justice. Anywhere.
That brings us to your comment:
4. You are wrong to beleive that you are not responsible for as much or more harm to the body of Christ than the Pastor. The media reaches a lot of souls and Brother Gaines did NOT do that, you did.
If we view this statement in the light of this:
Luke 12:50But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
51Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
52For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
53The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
54And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.
55And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass.
56Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?
57Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
58When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.
59I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.
If we divide on the WORD then so be it. We can divide over what He says and what we want Him to
say every day, all day. It looks as if that is His intent. Wheat and Tares....
Andrew, thank you for your post. Sometimes I forget Whose business we are about. Sometimes I loose sight of the Big Picutre:
" For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
You reminded me that good soldiers are well disciplined. In the quiet times they check their armour; always cleaning and repairing, for their armour allows them to stand. Their field manual is the Word, prayer in the Spirit their line of communication. (It goes directly to HQ)
I want to be a good soldier in this army:
"And I saw heaven opened and behold, a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war...And he hath on his vesture and on this thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." (Rev. 19:11,16)
churchmouse
Eph. 6:10-18
Touch Not Mine Anointed.
andrew,
I just wonder if FUMC ever bother to send BBC a thank you note for the check. I've thought about that a couple of times. If we did receive such a thank you, don't you think the leadership would let us know the gift was appreciated? That kind of thing should have hit the bulletin - after all, it was money contributed by the members. Shouldn't we have a chance to know that the money went to a good cause?
The above was tongue in cheek - just me being me! :)
karen
For all the years I've know Jeff Arnol why is he not telling the truth? You can read the transcripts or hear them and you walk away thinking no wonder we have problems. Jeff's statements about the SG, MS, RE meeting reveal that Jeff is making different statements about that meeting to different people. When will all the untruths stop?
"The problem is not in the Scripture or the theology taught from it. THE PROBLEM IS YOU PLACE EVERYONE IN THE JUDGEMENT SEAT EXCEPT YOURSELF and we all belong there from time to time."
We all are in the judgement seat everyday, Miss Billie. All of us.
However, the problem IS how scripture is taught. Doctrine is very important. Doctrine is simply what God teaches through His Word.
And once again, you have avoided specific questions I asked about your pastor ignoring scripture when it came to PW. Specifically 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 5...you remember, the one you selectively chose verses from to fit your premise.
"We are not to be abusive, call into question without 2-3 witnesses, quick and thus careless, or be generally disrespectful to an older man in or out of authority...BUT if the witnesses prove trustworthy or enough of us witness the offense ourselves we are called to rebuke, and without partiality. Position, name or age does not protect you from rebuke you have earned."
Andrew, I have a question. This passage refers to 'elders' which we all knows mean the pastor, etc. What I am wondering if it it applies to an 'elder' who is a false teacher?
For example, John did not name 3 witnesses nor write that he had any when he callled out Diotrephes nor did Paul collect 3 witnesses for rebuking Peter publicly. I guess what Diotrephes was doing was public but we do not really know if it was or not.
Does this passage refer to 'elder' in the scriptural sense of someone mature in the faith who teaches? We have so abused this title we hardly know what it means anymore.
It would seem the passages on false teachers would negate the 3 witnesses?
Just wondering...
Excellent article NASS. I wish we could print out a bunch a fliers (of this article) and drop them into the parking lot as people are leaving. Does anyone have a helicopter we can use? I don't think anyone would mind. Do you? ;)
just a side bar - way to go Mary
Churchmouse,
Praise God, and Amen! I'm with you.
Karen,
The shame of what we did and funded is beyond words for me. I know you're teasing and mean no offense but just the thought of a thank you note would be a knife in my heart. By all means we should feed and shelter those who need it but to fund those who practice what we used to preach against...I'm just overwhelmed with the reality of what we did.
May God have mercy on us all and remove from power, influence and authority anyone who would do such a thing again.
Very random question,
Has anyone at BBC or BS at GBC noticed that the Rogers family is no longer attending BBC???
Shouldn't that mean something to BS?
he WAS on the pulpit committee.
he IS running things very similiar at GBC.
Is Danny ministering to the family as they go thru yet another tragedy??
I hope so.
another random...
so nice to get the emails from "non posters" (and regulars!!)about the doctors....
we do so much more on this blog than other random blogs...I love the internet!! :)
32yrs@bbc,
Thanks so much for your 7:17 AM post. Everything you said was so true! I think the "worship" of a man is being demonstrated on a daily basis by the other "side."
Diana
I left out ...or GBC...
they are no longer attending either church...sorry.
Mary,
Thanks for calling for justice.
How is it I can love people I don't even know? Your words to Cakes keep "bubbling" up in my mind and I'm.... like getting a bubble bath every time I remember your words to him on TBR.
Cakes my friend.... "We'll leave the light on fer ya"
Night all.
Padroc,
Lots of lights being left on for our friend!!
Mary has a special gift for expressing things :)!
From the meeting:
Click here for MP3 audio file of highlighted yellow below. All browsers not supported. Please wait........
SG – "I think some do. I think, uh... I think that, uh... one thing that is changing is, I think, uh... and I'm not, again I'm not trying to put down Dr. Rogers, but I think by my coming here what I hear over and over and over is not that I'm arrogant, but that I'm a lot more transparent, I'm a lot more real, I connect with you because, uh... I'm, uh... well, uh... I know, hanging around after the service instead of... {unintelligible}."
Lynn? Would you pass me that duct tape, please?
Faith Baptist Church's motto is "where friends become family." After reading their monthly newsletter, I find it ironic that the "family of friends" who were forced to leave BBC are becoming a family once again!
http://faithbaptistbartlett.org/clientimages/27559/newsletter/septembernewsletter.pdf
gmommy said...
Very random question,
Has anyone at BBC or BS at GBC noticed that the Rogers family is no longer attending BBC???
Shouldn't that mean something to BS?
he WAS on the pulpit committee.
he IS running things very similiar at GBC.
Is Danny ministering to the family as they go thru yet another tragedy??
I hope so.
another random...
so nice to get the emails from "non posters" (and regulars!!)about the doctors....
we do so much more on this blog than other random blogs...I love the internet!! :)
7:58 PM, August 31, 2007
gmommy, I think you bring up a very good point. However sadly I think we know the answer. They don't care. In BBC's case, its apparent since Gaines is putting Dr. R down.
Nass,
Do you think he believes his own words?????
psalm,
Your link.
gmommy,
I can only assume he's either not being honest or he's delusional. Either way, it's sad.
SG - again I'm not trying to put down Dr. Rogers,
Again? SG, how many times have you put AR down already? And how many more times do you plan to put him down in the future (you know, "again")? BTW, it's nice that you admit that you've made it a habit of putting him down.
It's sad that a man can't build his own reputation and legacy up on his own merit. It's pathetic that he has to first tear down and attack the memory of a great man of God to do it.
"...I'm a lot more real, I connect with you because, uh... I'm, uh... well, uh... I know, hanging around after the service instead of... {unintelligible}."
In case you missed it, the "{unintelligible}" part was...
"instead of coming in late and leaving early."
Lin,
Interesting and stimulating questions. I have some initial thoughts but let me have a little time to respond.
andrew wrote:
"In case you missed it, the '{unintelligible}' part was...
'instead of coming in late and leaving early.'"
He should have quit while he was ahead.
As "housewife" said...
"It's sad that a man can't build his own reputation and legacy up on his own merit. It's pathetic that he has to first tear down and attack the memory of a great man of God to do it."
Pathetic, indeed.
legacy???
of a minister handed a mega church and bringing shame on that church with his inability to tell the truth?
of his disobedience to The Word?
of his lack of love?
of his dumbed down sermons?
of his teaching children prayers of adoration for the pastor instead of the Master?
of his changing the meaning of pastor from servant to the annointed king??
of his replacing worship with emotion and feelings?
for living a life of prudence, self control....and humility???
legacy??
Is that what it's called???
" again I'm not trying to put down Dr. Rogers, but..."
Ya know...if someone says they're not trying to do something then follow it with the word but....he's trying to do what he said he's not trying to do.
In this case, when Gaines says he's not trying to put down Dr. Rogers, BUT......he's trying to put down Dr. Rogers.
Why was Jeff Arnold Jr in the room to begin with? Who invited him to be in the meeting? MS and RE said they requested to meet with the pastor only.
According to my sources, Jeff Arnold Jr. was there to be a witness for Steve Gaines. I'm also told other staff members had good reason to advise MS and RE to record the meeting. SG and MD had a habit of misrepresenting meetings in the few months he had been called to Bellevue.
If this is the case, did Jeff Arnold fail in his job as a witness? Why did he lie to the staff and deacons over this meeting and slander these men?
It sure looks like Jeff Arnold chose to lie for Steve Gaines. Why would he do such a thing? Several senior deacons/leaders confronted SG and his small group of men who surround him to request MS and RE be brought before the deacons if they had committed such crimes against the pastor. The answer from SG was that's a slippery slope we don't want to go down. This was said in a deacons meeting as well when confronted.
Does Jeff Arnold need to appologize to these two men MS and RE and then proceed to appologize to the deacons, staff, and church?
If Jeff Arnold stands on the Word like he professes, I think he needs to repent of these issues quickly to the appropriate people.
SG needs to do the same. If the current leadership is going to continue to base their ministry on a foundation of lies, what kind of ministry will Bellevue ever have?
I say a false ministry that will continue to crumble as time goes on.
Lin said...
We all are in the judgement seat everyday, Miss Billie. All of us.
However, the problem IS how scripture is taught. Doctrine is very important. Doctrine is simply what God teaches through His Word.
And once again, you have avoided specific questions I asked about your pastor ignoring scripture when it came to PW. Specifically 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 5...you remember, the one you selectively chose verses from to fit your premise.
3:17 PM, August 31, 2007
Lynn,
I do not believe that Brother Gaines ignored the Scripture in the PW case. I believe, as he stated, that he believed the matter had been settled over 17 years ago. This would have been done under the leadership of Dr. Rogers not just an ordinary pastor!
The PW situation was just something the anti Gaines crowd capitalized on and is not the issue. My views are well known!
I continue to say that you and your co-minded people have all assumed a lot of junk that just simply is not true and you have made mountains out of molehills.
No one has said that mistakes were not made, even Brother Steve has publically stated so. The picture you all paint is not a truthful picture. An example: Accusing him of putting down Dr. Rogers he has never said anything but good about Dr. Rogers. Just to put it plan and simple "You, who said this, are distorting the truth" and spreading false gossip.
One of the problems is none of you will listen to the truth, you do not want to hear anything good and when you get a little bit of something negative you run with it and blow it up.
This matter with MS and RE, I read it and I considered every word that was spoken. MS and RE were up to no good when they went into the meeting otherwise they would not have carried a recorder.
They plotted to trip up Brother Steve (microscope). I could take that same transcript and prove that they are trouble makers who wanted to gain control over the new pastor at BBC. Mr Arnold, trying to be the nice guy, that he is, was trying to keep peace for all concerned.
Lynn,
People who look for bad can easily find bad things in this world because it is made up of fallen people.
We have so many things to be thankful for in our Church and in our pastor. He has tons of good qualities, many identical to Dr. Rogers. He preaches the Word with boldness and simple enough for a child to understand. If he were not under the grace of God and doing the work of the Lord he would not be facing all of these difficulties.
In time, you will come to trust God in His choosing of Brother Steve and you will realize that he was and is one of the few strong servants of Christ who could have faced the issues he has had to face and still remain firmly preaching the gospel of Christ.
Discussing these matters before lost people causes all sort of doubts to rise in their minds and places fear in young Christian's hearts of listening to anyone preaching and teaching God's Word.
We are to caution people to not fall into the ways of the world which is against the new life in Christ. (The media approach is the way of the world)
God's servants under the guidance of the Holy Spirit do no have to carry tape recorders into meetings with them because the Spirit records everything. The very fact that Mark S. and Richard E. carried the recorder into the meeting tells their character and as far as most of us are concerned no other testimony is needed against them. It tells who is right and who is wrong!!! This is the same for Jim Haywood who apparently makes it a weekly practice.
I just pray that those who come to this web site to read the garbage can have enough wisdom to see through the lies and deception.
It is not too late for any of you!
Feel free to contact me and I will pray with you.
Billie
Hey, thanks for your love and good wishes.
Pardon me, but you are seeing me practice my faith and path.
Namaste
Ms.Billie, why can't you just let it be? What is up with another long post?
A scriptural based rebuttal from one of our most learned among the Truthseekers will post later.
Your statement that "God's servants under the guidance of the Holy Spirit do no have to carry tape recorders into meetings with them because the Spirit records everything" is the craziest thing I have read in awhile. I'm sure defense attorneys everywhere will support you in that statement, cause if you don't have ACTUAL PROOF, then it's just HEARSAY. The use of tape recordings is governed by law, but the recommendation to use one is generaly governed by common sense. It's especially a good idea to record a meeting or converstation if the other party has tendancies to lie, forget or change their story.
"I do not believe that Brother Gaines ignored the Scripture in the PW case. I believe, as he stated, that he believed the matter had been settled over 17 years ago."
Miss Billie, For someone who claims she loves the Word, you are willfully ignoring it to make this statement. According to 1 Timothy 2, Gaines had the responsibility to remove PW upon hearing the truth. That second. He was no longer qualified biblically to be an elder. Even if he repented. He could be restored to the Body but not as an elder. EVER. You need some serious study because you do not get it.
I know repentant men I would love to see restored to ministry. But that is NOT what scripture teaches. They can be a part of the Body, forgiven, loved by all, etc. But they CANNOT be elders. We know God has reasons for what is written in scripture. It is for His Glory. Ignoring that is spitting on His Holy Word.
Question for all: Does God hear the prayers of someone who continuously and willfully ignores His Holy Word even when they have been shown the truth over and over?
billie said
God's servants under the guidance of the Holy Spirit do no have to carry tape recorders into meetings with them because the Spirit records everything. The very fact that Mark S. and Richard E. carried the recorder into the meeting tells their character and as far as most of us are concerned no other testimony is needed against them. It tells who is right and who is wrong!!! This is the same for Jim Haywood who apparently makes it a weekly practice.
Piglet says:
Oh, please! The fact that they carried a recording device is not s reflection of THEIR charater but that of SG and JA who attempted to twist what happened in that meeting.
Now be honest - if there were no tape - you would believe any version Jeff Arnold and Steve Gaines delivered, however much it demonized these humble men. You want it both ways.
It is God's providence that this distortion has been brought to light and the charater of those in the Gaines camp revealed for what they are - and if you don't see them for what they are afer this - this inludes you, too, ma'am.
Billie said: "The PW situation was just something the anti Gaines crowd capitalized on and is not the issue."
Lynn, I need to borrow that duct tape.
This comment is an affront to all parents who love their children, to all people who protect children, and to all who have been abused. The callus disregard for this sin, and subsequent treatment of the victim, HAS to be looked at as an example of SG's walk with God. There is NO WAY this man should have remained in his position. This is a poor judgment call, poor leadership, and poor following of scripture.
As far as I'm concerned, SG has made a habit of poor judgment calls, poor leadership, and poor following of scripture and this was the worst case of the lot.
Just because you don't want to believe it doesn't make it untrue.
Lin said: "I know repentant men I would love to see restored to ministry. But that is NOT what scripture teaches. They can be a part of the Body, forgiven, loved by all, etc. But they CANNOT be elders. We know God has reasons for what is written in scripture. It is for His Glory. Ignoring that is spitting on His Holy Word."
AMEN. Again, the difference between forgiveness and consequences.
Lin asked: "Question for all: Does God hear the prayers of someone who continuously and willfully ignores His Holy Word even when they have been shown the truth over and over?"
I've gotta think He hears but whether He chooses to respond is a different story. Interesting to ponder.
ms. billie,
Let me make sure I understand this statement that you made concerning PW:
"I continue to say that you and your co-minded people have all assumed a lot of junk that just simply is not true and you have made mountains out of molehills"
Sotl says:
So it is your belief that the outrage of the sexual abuse of a child by a minister on staff at BBC is just merely making a mountain out of a molehill?
And then you invite people to pray with you?
I think not.
I do not believe that Brother Gaines ignored the Scripture in the PW case. I believe, as he stated, that he believed the matter had been settled over 17 years ago. This would have been done under the leadership of Dr. Rogers not just an ordinary pastor!
Another sad attempt to bring AR down as if AR mishandled this "situation." You willfully ignore that AR didn't know about what PW did. We know this because those who were closest to him have said that AR didn't know. PW himself said that AR didn't know, if I remember correctly. Furthermore, we know that if AR had known, he would have dealt with it swiftly and severely. And we know this because of how he dealt with and adulterous situation before the ENTIRE church.
Swiftly and severely.
Also, bringing a recorder in shows a willing transparency on the part of MS & RE since their statements can be equally dissected. But the fact that SG and JA are so rattled by the recorder shows that they fear people knowing what they REALLY said. And MS & RE needed a recorder because SG has been known to LIE about what he REALLY says in meetings.
I'm sure you'll ignore that too.
This by Truett is worth reading again:
When I read the minutes of the meeting and the statement was made about your current Pastor spending more time at the office it was laughable....Dr. Rogers studied at home.....and as Dr. Lee so eloquently stated it....you can't eat skim milk all week and preach cream on Sunday.
Dr. Rogers was always prepared to bring the Word of God
(Cream) to the people of God...always!
For those who have listened and met Dr. Rogers….you realize, to compare….is to look foolish, It’s like comparing an Eagle (Dr. Rogers) to a hummingbird!
I fully understand that the Church must move on.....you can't stay in the past......but folks your past was glorious....and for 32 wonderful years you had the greatest Preacher, Statesman...and Church builder in the history of the Southern Baptist Convention.
Remember talent sometimes gets you to a place …where a lack of character will not keep you!
How could the sexual abuse of an innocent one...
especially by his own parent ...
ever be a mole hill to God
or to any breathing human being much less a believer???
That statement is completely against scripture, and against the character God.
Just HOW COULD this perversion have been "dealt" with in such a way that would somehow make PW fit to continue in the position of ministry???
If that is the lie coming from leadership....that they thought Bro R handled it...????
that makes SG even MORE heartless, shallow and not qualified to be the SR Pastor.
Lets just all be insane for a moment and pretend PW "told" Bro. R many years ago...
(as if he or any other predator would confess if not forced to )AND
even tho the twisted report read by DC SAYS that PW did not confess because he knew he would lose his job.
predators prey on the innocent NOT "out" themselves.
It is the power they thirst for.
And how powerful PW felt while re injuring so many vulnerable people and storing up the secret sins of those around him so as not to see the perverted sick person looking back at him from the mirror.
make up and change the story as you go along....
against the leadership's own report given to the church.
No matter what you choose to think,
it is never a mole hill to God or God's people that a minister would sexually violate the soul of one of His own and then get away with it.
Everyone that knew about the perversion of PW is as guilty as if they themselves violated the victims.
Dream and rant about it being OK all you want...
There WILL come a time when these people face The One that judges...
I can hear their silence now......
Music man returns to Florida.
E-mail filtering is such a wonderful thing!
Just sayin'...
Whitmire also credited former minister of music, Rodney Brooks, who is now serving at First Baptist Church in Atlanta, with leaving behind a rich heritage of music leadership.
"I want to be a blessing to people," Whitmire said. "The music program is so wonderful. I don't want anything to happen to it on my watch."
...now that is an interesting approach to serving (emphasis) in a new church!
Nass,
Getting a little "junk mail"???
(no relation to our most wise junkster!)
Wow. The last time I saw Bro. Whitmire was during AR's funeral. I never got a chance to worship under his leadership at GBC because I don't attend there. But it would have been nice to do so once more before he left. Now, it's so final... at least until I get to worship with him in heaven, along with AR. =)
I'm happy for him though. I hope they appreciate his God-given talent in Florida. God bless you, Bro. Whitmire!!!!
Does anyone know if Billie has a large class to teach? If her teaching style is anything like what she writes, I cannot imagine. Does she have friends?
This woman just makes me tired. Exhausted. To take her seriously is a challenge.
Is there any help?
She almost comes across as a dowdy old woman.
Doesn't appear to be educated as her writing style, grammar and spelling don't support that.
But this could all be a false front.
Please don't take offense with this. This is a serious effort to try to understand.
gmommy wrote:
"Getting a little 'junk mail'???"
Sometimes. But I have a "special" folder where e-mail from certain... uh... sources... automatically goes so that I never have to see it. Then when I notice there are 3 or 4 messages in there, all I have to do is "flush" it. It's so satisfying to not have to deal with all that... stuff. :-)
billie,
All whistleblowers are dangerous people to people like you. You can see it all the time play out in the defense of the folks caught lying, cheating, or stealing in government, business, and the church. The blame is always deflected over to the accusers or the ones who had the courage to blow the whistle of warning.
How dare MS and RE go into a meeting with Bro. Steve and record the meeting. Actually, there were many on staff who had discovered Bro. Steve's selected memory. From what I've heard, you wouldn't want Bro. Steve to be writing history books. It's always interesting that the guilty caught on tape cry foul. Why do you think the FBI tapes people?
Cakes said...
Hey, thanks for your love and good wishes.
Pardon me, but you are seeing me practice my faith and path.
Namaste
2:19 PM, September 01, 2007
Your welcome!
And me?
Like I have said before and others have said and demonstrated previously, you ARE loved and appreciated. BUT, my friend you and I know that all of our goodness however appreciated and revered, are at best.... How shall I say this? “As filthy rags” to Almighty God. These rags refer to the discarded grave cloths from a rotted corps.
And here remains the greatest expression of love I can muster.
No matter your personal persuasion the question always waits: What will you do with Christ? Not, what will you do with “those Christians”?
I know; different paths for different folks, but I truly desire to love you enough to at least tell you that is a "bunch of whoey". My words, of course. Have you ever read or listened to any of Ravi Zacharias talks? In my estimation he is often the one living person in the world qualified to address the diverse claims of the religions of the world and answer the tough questions posed by religious scholars of many different persuasions in a public forum.
I have a 4 CD set of "The Harvard VERITAS Forum" which I would lend you should that be of any interest. From the CD case: "Some have heralded this forum as one of the most significant dialogs on truth on the Harvard campus in the past fifty years". Information can be accessed at: rzim.org
Your friend,
padroc
John Ford should have called billie to defend him.
I said this before and I will say it again:
There are a group of people who will be appauled and repulsed by what PW did and by SG's subsequent hiding of it.
And then there are those that fall into the category of thinking that it was wrong, but they will not be repulsed and can look past how SG covered it up.
You are either repulsed by child sexual abuse or you are not. Some people, like billie tapp seem to feel that some forms of child sexual abuse are worse than others,
and that we can be tolerant of some forms of it.
These are the people who think that we have made a ' mountain out of a molehill". " So what" they will say...no big deal, you are just using it to get back at SG. Nevermind that SG covered up a CRIME!!! Nevermind that a child was greviously injured, spiritually, emotionally, physically. This does not matter..all that matters to people like Billy Tapp is that she follow her master, Steve Gaines, NO MATTER WHAT he does..
She is blind. She is so blinded that a man sexually abusing his son can be explained away as just a " mountain out of a molehill".
God should lock Billy Tapp up and throw away the key.
"Another sad attempt to bring AR down as if AR mishandled this "situation." You willfully ignore that AR didn't know about what PW did."
They've been taking that tact over at the Bratton Report--beginning from the premise that the truthseekers couldn't possibly have legitimate doubts regarding Gaines' fitness as a minister, or lack thereof--you are rather worshippers of Dr. Rogers and have an unreasonable distain for Padre. Then, it is argued that Dr, Roger would have behaved as Gaines.
If you look at these sermonettes (because Billie's missive's are always monologues), they just declare judgement of intent, thus never have to fuss with all those dirty lil' facts at odds with the storybook hero that she paints of Padre:
"He has tons of good qualities, many identical to Dr. Rogers. He preaches the Word with boldness and simple enough for a child to understand. If he were not under the grace of God and doing the work of the Lord he would not be facing all of these difficulties."
Presume that recording a conversation is the depth of depravity, while letting a pedophile off the hook for 6 months is no prob.
SOTL said:
John Ford should have called billie to defend him.
oc says. Nothing. No comment needed.
Not even just sayin'. :)
oc.
Housewife,
Are you aware that we bloggers occasionally alter our names???
I sure would like some of our creative thinkers to come up with another name for you.....
I just don't see you with a feather duster and pearls..(remembering Mrs.Cleaver)
self defense in the form of recording a conversation is a mole hill!!
A Sr. Pastor covering up/turning a blind eye...to a confessed child molestor is a mountain .
Mrs. Billie,
I have watched and read and commented to you on occasion with the idea that I might have a sensible word for you to consider. As yet perhaps not but I’ll give it one more try.
Jesus came:
To, as the living Word of God, dwell among us so as to accomplish God’s will on earth.
To come as a divider of time and families for God’s glory alone. Jesus is divisive.
To fulfill the Scriptures.
To seek and to save the lost.
To destroy the works of the devil.
To give life and that abundantly.
To rescue the perishing.
To die in the place of sinners.
To pay the ransom of God on the cross for all.
To rise bodily from the grave to prove His Deity.
To send a comforter and a witness after His ascension into Heaven.
To overcome the world.
Oh and so much more I don’t remember just now.
And I wonder? Who is it that knows more than Jesus? God does, because according to the scriptures, God has not yet revealed to Jesus when God will send Jesus back to call the saved of God out of this earth. In light of this, how is it that you can be so sure of what you come on here and say as fact when you seem to refuse to consider the evidence? And I’m not talking about considering opinions. I’m talking about examining scripture according to scripture in light of scripture. Some have used their time, talents and treasure in order to appeal to you.
Again and again you have chosen to ignore some (in my opinion) well asked questions by individuals who seem to care more for you than you do for yourself. I’ll say this as kindly and as directly as I can: you are not listening! And I am convinced that when scripture is carefully examined in light of scripture we can know what God is saying. On the other hand when we examine scripture in light of our (limited) understanding we are being foolish. For your sake, please consider what you give evidence of doing by your statements here on this blog.
I will go so far as to say that most here have ‘given up’ or ‘died’ to their determination to be right. Most posters have seen the imperfection of that attitude. Weather you feel like it or not you are truly amongst friends of Jesus whose desire is for the bonds of Christian love to be experienced in the here and now for the glory of the Lord Jesus and have been in angst over your statements and the concern we have for those whom you teach. Based on your participation on this blog I weep.
I think that you can tell whose questions and statements are for your edification. What shall I say…. PLEASE reconsider some of the most basic and perhaps simple questions some have asked which may at first seem judgmental or accusatory. As I have matured in my relationship with God and His word I have had to make the same choice because God, in His providence, kept “pounding” certain facts of His into my life. I could repent or suffer…. It was my choice. I am suggesting that you are at a point of choosing. May you choose the best and I will ask God to provide you with wisdom according to His need in your life just now.
With thanksgiving for God’s amazing grace,
Padroc
P.S. If I have something wrong…. Well I’m just operating within my limitations. Help me out. Thanks.
"As I have matured in my relationship with God and His word I have had to make the same choice because God, in His providence, kept “pounding” certain facts of His into my life. I could repent or suffer…. It was my choice."
Padroc, Thank you for a beautiful and edifying to our Lord, comment.
The sentence above describes me, too. To be very honest, there were teachings in scripture that I did not like and totally ignored. And, I managed to ignore them for many years. Romans 9 comes to mind as ONE of those.
But that was my flesh and by the Grace of God, I was able to change my whole view of scripture.
Scripture has nothing to do with what I think or feel or what I think it says. It has everything to do with what 'God Hath Said'.
If Jeff Arnold was there as a former Deacon Chairman and confidant of Bro. Steve, what was the real purpose of him being present in the meeting with MS and RE?
Conficant: One to whom secrets or private matters are disclosed
Bro. Steve, Jeff Arnold, John Caldwell, Brian Miller, and Mark Dougharty meet each week early in the morning for an accountability session. Bro. Steve has told many of us about this time that is spent together. (Not sure if Mark is included any more since he went to Charles Stanley's church)
Question: What are they holding each other accountable to? Is it more of a strategy session?
How can Jeff Arnold purposefully mislead deacons and staff into believing something that never happened the way he described? How can he worship in Spirit and in Truth knowing the way he has mislead others inside the church?
What would keep him from repenting?
Cakes - Well said. Also, "Padre" - LOL. He does love it when you kiss his ring. =)
gmommy said...
Housewife,
Are you aware that we bloggers occasionally alter our names???
I sure would like some of our creative thinkers to come up with another name for you.....
I just don't see you with a feather duster and pearls..(remembering Mrs.Cleaver)
7:34 PM, September 01, 2007
LOL. Yes, I did know that. I don't blame you for changing you names. =)
1) I don't dust because - well, what for? I have enough to clean already. Besides, the kids can take care of that when they use the coffee table as a slip-and-slide.
2) I don't own real pearls because I don't need them. (Nothing against owning pearls though. I wouldn't mind owning some someday.)
3) I'm definitely NOT Mrs. Cleaver, unfortunately. Anyway, she never homeschooled.
But I am a housewife. As for another name, what did you have in mind? This could be interesting. Just don't let billie have a vote on this one. I'd hate to think what kind of name she has in store for me. =)
Padroc,
Thanks for your love and concern; yet, I have come to terms with spirituality--if you want to have a conversation about it, perhaps we should go email. However, in matters of faith, it is difficult if one side begins from the premise of owning the truth at the disadvantage of the other. Even if they approach from the standpoint of love, it can sometimes feel a lil' patronizing.
I don't think you'll ever find me the least bit surprised or ungrateful for your expressions of love and concern regarding faith. Padroc, I'm on a different path, obviously I find some usefulness in it, and I've cultivated in it. It is not somethinng I take lightly.
I don't feel that full of goodness, yet I place a premium on compassion over truth. Truth, whatever it is and where it is found, will be be debated until the end of time, but compassion is fully blossomed at its expression.
Being good is not the point.
I was deep, deep in that Southern Baptist theology years ago, so I know of the filthy rag analogy. Theres a lot of self-loathing in the south generally, not just in some churches. I don't buy it. I can not make hope and fear the very basis of my existence.
You just be the gentle and caring person that you always are, and you have said with your actions all you need; let's not get everyone here on a mission from God.
fogmachine said:
Question: What are they holding each other accountable to? Is it more of a strategy session?
oc says:
Maybe they think they are accountable to each other, and each other alone. I won't speculate if the Lord was involved in it. I don't think I need to.
fogmachine said:
How can he worship in Spirit and in Truth knowing the way he has mislead others inside the church?
oc says:
He can't. It's an impossibility. Although 'nothing is impossible with the Lord', He will not work against His own will and character.
Lying while truthfully worshipping is one of those impossibilities that the Lord will choose to not overcome.
Sometimes there just is no excuse,no matter how hard you try.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Cakes,
10-4 good buddy!
Off to the sleep zonezzzzzz.
I want to ask Jeff Arnold, what does it mean to be spirit filled?
Do you consider yourself to be spirit filled?
Why did you lie about the meeting with MS and RE ?
Have you or Steve Gaines asked for frogivness from these men?
No matter where you stand in all of this, I must admit that Steve Gaines gossiped about RE and BM did too. Steve admitted that in the transcripts on savingbellevue. All anyone has to do is read the transcripts.
Jeff Aronld committed perjury against MS and RE by not telling the truth about the meeting.
No matter where anyone stands in all of this, the evidence is clear on the above.
Let's have term limits at Bellevue for the positions of "Elder".
Dr. Rogers use to say, " private sin private confession, Public sin, public confession".
SG and JA it's time to come clean!
BBCCC wrote:
"Jeff Aronld committed perjury against MS and RE by not telling the truth about the meeting."
Not minimizing the fact that JA apparently contradicted his earlier statements, but I don't recall him being under oath; hence, I don't think he committed perjury. It was something much more basic than that.
eprov said...
Does anyone know if Billie has a large class to teach? If her teaching style is anything like what she writes, I cannot imagine. Does she have friends?
This woman just makes me tired. Exhausted. To take her seriously is a challenge.
Is there any help?
She almost comes across as a dowdy old woman.
Doesn't appear to be educated as her writing style, grammar and spelling don't support that.
But this could all be a false front.
Please don't take offense with this. This is a serious effort to try to understand.
5:06 PM, September 01,
Eprov,
I am the real deal! in all of my ways. I may not write or speak with your high intellect but as I said before David did not kill Goliath with his words or writings. Do you know what he used? Maybe the best question is can you tell what it was in a simple language and style that a child can understand?
I wonder if you could teach a lesson that the common foke could understand and apply in their daily lives.
I am really not trying to be arrogant just answering one of your silly statements.
Sometimes people become so educated that God can't teach them a thing; they think they have "got it" and no one else could possibly be any smarter.
I hope that you are not one of those!
If you would like I can give you names of several young women who I have been teaching for a number of years and you can ask them about me. I do not have the defend myself or the messages that the Lord lays on my heart to teach.
I will end with this statement you are right about this blog and all the people who post on it. To the world it is a shame and disgrace.
To try to reply to all the rediculious questions again would be foolish on my part and a waste of time. Not saying that I do care about the hearts of you all.
By the way I post my identity which states that I am the real deal. NONE OF YOU HAVE THE NERVE to sign with your names YOU HIDE BEHIND A COMPUTER.
Billie
Billie wrote:
"I will end with this statement you are right about this blog and all the people who post on it. To the world it is a shame and disgrace."
Uh... Ms. Billie? You post on it, too.
BBCCC wrote:
"Jeff Aronld committed perjury against MS and RE by not telling the truth about the meeting."
Not minimizing the fact that JA apparently contradicted his earlier statements, but I don't recall him being under oath; hence, I don't think he committed perjury. It was something much more basic than that.
.....................
OK let go ahead and say JA and SG broke one of the 10 commandments. I guess those acts are ok with some people.
Also for the record perjury is a lie reguardless if you are under oath or not. The only difference is you dont go to jail unless you are under oath.
billie said:
I will end with this statement you are right about this blog and all the people who post on it. To the world it is a shame and disgrace.
oc says:
So is the Gospel.
Just sayin',
oc.
Lin,
"Question for all: Does God hear the prayers of someone who continuously and willfully ignores His Holy Word even when they have been shown the truth over and over?"
No. Isaiah 1
Billie said...
By the way I post my identity which states that I am the real deal. NONE OF YOU HAVE THE NERVE to sign with your names YOU HIDE BEHIND A COMPUTER.
Uh... Ms. Billie? Kinda like you did under other screen names until others figured out who you were?
(Word verification: duhnah)
Billie,
Please elaborate on your statement about how we are making a mountain out of a molehill with regard to PW.
Are you of the opinion that not all sexual abuse is bad? Is some worse than others? Is it ok sometimes?
YOU are the one that accused us of making a mountain out of a molehill, now explain what you meant.
It's too late for me to try and decipher Billie's last post. It's so hard to make heads or tails of what she says.
Like this: "Not saying that I do care about the hearts of you all."
So it sounds like she is saying she doesn't care about our hearts, if you interject a SUBJECT into the sentence....it would become "I'm Not saying that I do care about the hearts of you all."
Then there's this: "Sometimes people become so educated that God can't teach them a thing; they think they have "got it" and no one else could possibly be any smarter." This sounds like she's talking about SG. Wait...that couldn't be..........
Or this: "I wonder if you could teach a lesson that the common foke could understand and apply in their daily lives."
What's a "foke"?
Sigh. I guess I'd better try tomorrow, when I'm fresh.
Definition of perjury
billie said
By the way I post my identity which states that I am the real deal. NONE OF YOU HAVE THE NERVE to sign with your names YOU HIDE BEHIND A COMPUTER.
Piglet says:
Once you've had ministers hopping fences and their nutcase supporters paying home visits with refrigerator art and staking out seminary presidents - you sorta want to keep below the radar. Have you had any home visits from nutcases recently?
Now, if you SAY you did, then of course you would need proof - but if you happen to video this visit, then we will judge your intentions to be sinister - so you can't win. :)
Billie said:
"By the way I post my identity which states that I am the real deal. NONE OF YOU HAVE THE NERVE to sign with your names YOU HIDE BEHIND A COMPUTER.
Billie"
Hey Billie...I hate to say this, but your lying about that fact. Lynn is my real name.
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