This one is next to the seminary and faces west:
That's a nice sentiment, but it's only part of the verse. This is the verse in its entirety.
"Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited." Romans 12:16 NIV
Read the verse in context here.
This one is adjacent to the ball fields and faces east:
"Pray for one another." There's certainly nothing wrong with that. But is that what James 5:9 really says? Let's take a look.
"Don't grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!" James 5:9 NIV
Read the verse in context here. The verse on the billboard is a snippet from James 5:16 NASB. So why doesn't the sign say "James 5:16"? Is this just another "mistake of the mind"?
And now we have word of a third billboard, this one on Summer Avenue near Mendenhall.
Here is that verse in its entirety: "Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching." Hebrews 10:25 NIV
I've heard there are more of these billboards around town. Anyone who knows the location of others (photos would be nice), please let me know. I'm sure these aren't the only hidden nuggets just waiting for the "dissenters" to find. Think of it as a sheep-beaters treasure hunt!
723 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 723 Newer› Newest»New BBC Open Forum said...
Jon wrote:
"You do know that the moderator of this board could make it so only registered members post and only let BBC folk post."
If I did that, you never would have found this blog because if I make it so only privately registered users can post, then they are the only ones who can read, too. We have many times more people read than ever post, and it's only for that reason I haven't made the blog private.
I agree, my comment was to remarks about me, a NC pastor along with other pastors posting here, as if this was not a good thing.
I am grateful I can post, since it is here. My preference would be that another way to communicate without world wide attention being drawn to BBC in such a time could be found.
Someone stated (I have not gone back to see who) something to the point that SG has created a negative impact on the community of Memphis (not exact quote,sorry). This could be so but this blog could be a part of that negative impact also, could it not?
I hurt for those of you who are hurting and hurt for those who seem vindictive. My prayers are with you.
Bro.Estes
Do you believe it is ok to allow a minister to remain on staff who raped his son?
Jon,
I've been reading and I have one question for you.
If you recall, Jesus went into the temple and overturned tables and proverbially ripped the thieves a new one for turning the temple into a marketplace. Jesus didn't exactly show them grace for turning God's house into a marketplace. How do you respond to that?
The Great Knock said...
Bro.Estes
Do you believe it is ok to allow a minister to remain on staff who raped his son?
No I do not. He would be gone immediately and I would have called the police as he was being let go, or had the police meet me when I called him to release him?
Is there a reason you ask? Have I come across as supporting such?
SUPERCALIFRAGILISTICEXPIALIDOCIOUS_lynn said...
Jon,
I've been reading and I have one question for you.
If you recall, Jesus went into the temple and overturned tables and proverbially ripped the thieves a new one for turning the temple into a marketplace. Jesus didn't exactly show them grace for turning God's house into a marketplace. How do you respond to that?
Knowing it was Jesus who did this act, I would say He did so in grace. I could say not less since scripture states:
John 1:14 (NKJV)
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Jon said,
"No I do not. He would be gone immediately and I would have called the police as he was being let go, or had the police meet me when I called him to release him?
Is there a reason you ask? Have I come across as supporting such?"
Reply:
I wanted to ask such a question because up until this happened at my church I would have thought any Christian (laiety or ministry) would have answered the same.
Steve Gaines the pastor of BBC has no problem with that. How as a fellow christian should I respond if my pastor and leadership refuses to be reconciled to me on this matter? Matthew 18 was followed by me and others on this blog. If you feel as I do on this, I suggest you try to be reconciled to your fellow Christian and fellow pastor. This includes the pastor of BBC and associate pastor of BBC.
Do you believe this disqualifies a man from ministry for holding such unscriptural beliefs like allowing a pedophile to be minister?
The Great Knock said...
Jon said,
"No I do not. He would be gone immediately and I would have called the police as he was being let go, or had the police meet me when I called him to release him?
Is there a reason you ask? Have I come across as supporting such?"
Reply:
I wanted to ask such a question because up until this happened at my church I would have thought any Christian (laiety or ministry) would have answered the same.
Steve Gaines the pastor of BBC has no problem with that. How as a fellow christian should I respond if my pastor and leadership refuses to be reconciled to me on this matter? Matthew 18 was followed by me and others on this blog. If you feel as I do on this, I suggest you try to be reconciled to your fellow Christian and fellow pastor. This includes the pastor of BBC and associate pastor of BBC.
Do you believe this disqualifies a man from ministry for holding such unscriptural beliefs like allowing a pedophile to be minister?
Did SG apologize for not bringing this to the church? I am not seeking your thought on if he should have done it sooner but did he apologize and say it was wrong to have not brought this and that a situation like this had not been dealt with by him prior in his ministry?
No pastor is perfect and forgiveness is required.
Should he step down, all I can say is if I would have made such a bad decision, I would, for my sake. That's me speaking for me and no one else, OK? Thanks, I know you understand.
Jon L. Estes said...
Did SG apologize for not bringing this to the church? I am not seeking your thought on if he should have done it sooner but did he apologize and say it was wrong to have not brought this and that a situation like this had not been dealt with by him prior in his ministry?
No pastor is perfect and forgiveness is required.
Should he step down, all I can say is if I would have made such a bad decision, I would, for my sake. That's me speaking for me and no one else, OK? Thanks, I know you understand.
3:36 PM, June 23, 2007
Lynn's Reponse: In my estimation based on the behavior of Gaines and his posse, the apologies he has made were insincere. Especially when he himself has made excuses for his actions. For example, he said that he did not know what to do to handle PW. Most people who have half a brain cell would know to fire him on the spot and then contact the authorities. That is not something you need to consult the bible on. Thats just common sense.
Jon...
As a professional who understands management skills; as someone who has many years 'inside' church staff; as someone who doesn't have a horse in this race - meaning relatively new to Bellevue and I didn't think I had any right to care who the new reverend was; as someone with a Baptist pastor father and brother; believe me SG is his own worst enemy. He lacks in many areas and as is true many times in leading an organization, the buck stops at his desk. A waste of time to discuss extending grace or anything else, he has what he perceives is God-given direction regardless what anyone else thinks. Been there, seen it, seen it before. It is a cheap game, my opinion. Sad to say but it has nothing to do with anything most of us would regard as spiritual sensitivity. His response has been from the flesh. If you are a pastor you are making a noble attempt, however you undoubtedly know the rest of the story.
He NEVER said it was wrong, and more importantly he has never explained WHY he has such a worldview. He is sorry it came out in the open, but he is lying when he says he made such a decision because he was in "unchartered " waters. He made it clear to the victim that he is a "grace man" and it was under the blood. Again he is being dishonest about his worldview when he allows the pedophile to be fired once the story came to light. He changed his position because the story was made public not because he realized it was wrong. Again I ask does this not disqualify a man from ministry?
You are right. No one is perfect and Forgiveness is required. However, I don't want a perfect pastor, I want a pastor who believes it is wrong to have a minister on staff who raped his son! I have forgiven the pastor even though he has not asked forgivenes for this morally wrong decision, but don't you realize even when there is forgiveness there are still consequences! The consequence for his decision/belief is that he should resign as pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church.
The Great Knock,
If you were a pastor and did this you would resign, as I said I would also. I can't and won't speak as to what SG thinks on the matter.
"SUPERCALIFRAGILISTICEXPIALIDOCIOUS_lynn said...
gmommy said...
oc,
everyone is worn out.
Lily and Lynn put everyone to shame!!!
Padroc will probably have trouble getting out of bed tomorrow...
I didn't want to hurt myself...been too long since I threw those heavy things!
But it was great fun!!!!!
1:13 AM, June 23, 2007
I had a blast bowling last night. I think I over did it some. When I speared those pins it made my shoulder hurt!!!! We ought to do it again sometime :D
2:29 PM, June 23, 2007"
Oh my goodness.... Oooooh uhhhhh...
'getting up is so hard to do' she-bop, she-bop.... I have no idea when the night ended and the day began but do remember well that it took precious and delightful Gmommy about two hours to explain to me the rules and then what to do with my feet, and how to hold the ball and then how to aim and then how to step and throw at the same time but what a great teacher! My first throw was a strike.... out. Yes, I went to the ‘guttermost’, but it was for the right reason. What a terrific time I had. Thank you, everyone.
Padroc
Jon,
I know you would resign in such a situation, but as a pastor do you believe Steve Gaines should resign?
I just noticed that this blog does not allow anonymous blogging but as I check out some of the posters links, they continue to remain anonymous. This is quite funny.
Jon L. Estes said...
I just noticed that this blog does not allow anonymous blogging but as I check out some of the posters links, they continue to remain anonymous. This is quite funny.
"Anonymous comments" is the term blogger.com uses to refer to the ability to post without signing in with a screen name.
Jon, I stated yesterday an appreciation for your tone and attitude ... but today it seems to me that you've started to shift a bit towards some less gracious-sounding remarks. I know its sometimes hard to convey tone in written form. But I'm wondering if the challenges and confontations you've been experiencing here are starting to wear on you. Over time, it can become more difficult to respond to trying situations with gentleness and grace.
jon said: I believe you are misreading me. I have not supported that the clergy holds all authority and the congregation is simply to obey. I have been hoping to convey that everything we do must be done with truth and grace. I don't know and probably neither do you if everything said on this blog against SG is true but I think both of us are intelligent enough to see that much is being said with no amount of grace. This concerns me for the sake of those posting and being allowed to continue to be less than salt and light.
Jon,
I don't think I've misread you. What I see in your posts is a simple denial of documented facts, diverting attention from them by focusing on what may or may not be true, and decrying a lack of grace. I believe that neither my nor your intelligence has anything to do with the issues at hand. But for the sake of argument I ask you to ponder a few things...there is much talk these days about love, grace, mercy...basically a "can't we all just get along" mentality. But I ask, where are the troublers of Israel? I find it amazing that in the vast majority of SBC churches these days, what is preached seldom can even pass muster as milk, much less meat, and then leaders are amazed when the congregants don't seem to "get it". I dare say a great many filling the pews of those churches these days don't even know the difference...the reason being their palates have been set by substandard "gospel" preaching. If the percentages of unregenerate "church members" which the leaders of the SBC have put forth are true (around 67%) why do you stand so amazed at responses that are less than graceful? Perhaps you should consider that maybe what you see is merely the fruit reaped from the seed that's been sown? There are plenty of preachers today who cry peace peace...but is there peace? No, they heal the hurt with whatever psychobabble happens to be floating downstream and continue to cry peace, peace...and the people like it so. I say Lord please send some troublers to Israel.
Grace as a noun – kindness, decency
Grace as a verb – honor, dignify
Truth a noun – fact, reality, honesty
My prayer is that truth and grace will apply to my communications and thoughts; however, reality is, I often times miss the mark, particularly in the area of grace – both as a noun and a verb.
Bro Jon your posts have provided new challenges to us, and I also thank you for hammering in “grace and truth”.
Some have natural grace, others struggle at all times. For the truthseekers, truth is in fact our reality, truth is what we have sought from the pastor and the church leaders. Truth is not what we have received. So, truth to us has become a sensitive area, an area to be always vigilant. Yes, there have been posts of “I heard” or “someone said”, but we have tried to keep all those things in check until the truth has been revealed. Thanks only to this blog, many truths have been revealed.
Many things have been tried in an attempt to communicate with the pastor and church leaders – in grace and in truth. The result has been only lies, half-truths, nothing from the leadership.
Whether we leave BBC or stay, we shall continue to be warriors for the truth, the Scripture in one hand and a shield for those spears in the other.
p.s. – Bowl on ye good and faithful servants, and grasshoppers.
Lin said...
Our pastors/elders today are to be servants, not kings.
Lin, you could not have said it better
Jon wrote:
"I just noticed that this blog does not allow anonymous blogging but as I check out some of the posters links, they continue to remain anonymous. This is quite funny."
Cite an example, please. "Anonymous" in this case doesn't mean you have to post using your real name. It means you have to register and make your profile visible.
SOTL,
I think I saw you in lane 7, you sure were hopping around!
What were those white circles all over you? Looked like white polka dots..Ain't never, ever seen a grasshopper with white polka dots before!
You're hoppin!!
supercalifragilistic whatever lynn,
Man, you are quite the bowler, and a neat friend. Thanks for dominating lane 7. You rock!
oc.
"I just noticed that this blog does not allow anonymous blogging but as I check out some of the posters links, they continue to remain anonymous. This is quite funny."
I do not know what you find so humorous about it, Mr. Estes. Anonymous writings were not infrequent during the Reformation for a very good reason.
But it is a clever tactic to deflect from the debate going on here. It is a strawman. Let us focus on the facts at hand. The facts that are verifiable as there are plenty.
I wrote:
""Anonymous" in this case doesn't mean you have to post using your real name. It means you have to register and make your profile visible."
Actually, it just means you have to register. Making your profile visible is a rule I enacted when we were struck by trolls who would assume other people's screen names.
What exactly did you find so humorous about that?
junk99male said...
Jon L. Estes said...
I just noticed that this blog does not allow anonymous blogging but as I check out some of the posters links, they continue to remain anonymous. This is quite funny.
"Anonymous comments" is the term blogger.com uses to refer to the ability to post without signing in with a screen name.
Jon, I stated yesterday an appreciation for your tone and attitude ... but today it seems to me that you've started to shift a bit towards some less gracious-sounding remarks. I know its sometimes hard to convey tone in written form. But I'm wondering if the challenges and confontations you've been experiencing here are starting to wear on you. Over time, it can become more difficult to respond to trying situations with gentleness and grace.
I re-read my comments and see what you speak of. I am tired as having been on the road with youth camp, funeral and that upon returning from San Antonio. This is no excuse and I deeply regret my tone, I should have waited until I rested and was clear headed. Please forgive me.
I am stepping away from posting for a while it seems my suggestion of balancing truth with grace has become an offense. Though this saddens me (that such a suggestion would be offensive and cause discord), I should for the betterment of my life and testimony I wish to live step back.
Thank you for the dialogue, my prayers are with you.
Padroc,
We weren't even keeping score, yet had an excellent time. I lived in the gutter all night. Yet no one judged me. All the Bowlers just flat loved me, no matter if I had a strike or gutter ball. Firm, but loving, you all knew that I was on the same team, so cheered me on even though I was somewhat deficient in my skills or performance. Even when I made big mistakes,crossing lanes even, I was guided back into the right lane, NARROW as it is, for my own good.
Wow. Felt like love. Thanks.
Just sayin',
oc.
Jon,
I don't want any of us to hammer you.
I wish some one else would have picked up on the particular comment you made that I can't believe you had the arrogance to say to us.
And since empty apologies seem to be all your theology and heart require for all to be better...
I do apologize in advance.And it was YOU that said forgiveness is required.
In your 2:56 post...
you have an issue with OUR being ALLOWED to continue to be other than salt and light?????????
Try a better one than that, please.
WE take issue with Steve Gaines being allowed to continue to be less than salt and light......
so SG's is not perfect and the scriptures for him are just guidelines....
and he has stated himself to the deacons that he is not accountable to anyone....
But YOU take issue with the truthseekers participating with this blog being
ALLOWED to continue to be LESS THAN SALT AND LIGHT!
I can't stand the hypocrisy!!!
You answer questions with questions.
Yes and No are allowed on this blog.
And Jon,
since you choose to make references to the "negative impact of this blog"
PLEASE feel free to speak towards the negative impact SG's lack of scriptural integrity,
lack of love, lack of conscience, and his delusion about being the king....
has made on us(the evil bloggers),
BBC,
the SBC,
Mid America, and all our weaker brothers.
Speak out against the sins that brought us to this place in the first place.....don't just come here to fulfill your unwritten code of the brotherhood.
One more comment to Jon,
Thank you for saying YOU would have stepped down from the pulpit had you made the decision JUST ABOUT the staff sexual predator....
I sincerely thank you for that.
Padroc,
"knowing you", there was probably some hidden meaning in your statement about my "instructions" to you....
and allofgrace is probably LOL cos he gets it and I don't...
BUT......
thank you......precious and delightful are not comments I hear very often :)
Back at cha brother!
Lily!!!
I think you just named our little bowling team!!!
oc...
I lovingly suggest we move to the right lane...
just sayin:)
sheepless wrote:
"Ain't never, ever seen a grasshopper with white polka dots before!"
SOTL posed for this outside the bowling alley yesterday.
oc,
I lovingly concur with "gmommy." Just let it pass. Okay? I think most of us are capable of discerning... that... without labeling it.
ok.
Thanks. :-)
Jon wrote: "I am stepping away from posting for a while it seems my suggestion of balancing truth with grace has become an offense. Though this saddens me (that such a suggestion would be offensive and cause discord), I should for the betterment of my life and testimony I wish to live step back."
Mr. Estes, I do not think your comments lacked grace at all. I think they were in error probably due to a misunderstanding and misapplied teaching in the Three Kings.
I would really love to hear your view of how to balance truth and grace. My experience has been that when someone says we are lacking in grace, they just do not like the issue that is being discussed. Many times truth is well...just negative. (Ironically, I was reading recently a book on Apologetics by Bruce that said the NT is 53% negative in character and by design)
If you think about it, you came here to rebuke us for what you deem is a lack of grace without explaining how one confronts sin with grace.
This is important in light of the fact this blog was born BECAUSE the leadership at BBC refused to answer questions, closed the books, harbored a pedophile minister…until the outcry on this blog was so huge he had to be fired.
So, in a way, this blog served a very important function. I sincerely believe that had it not been for this blog…the pedophile would still be there. And the victim would still be ignored.
Keep in mind, that the Shepherd has refused all along to meet with the sheep. According to Matthew 18..even though his 'sins' are public... he is to be treated as a 'gentile and tax gatherer'. This is not withstanding the qualifications of an elder in Timothy to be 'above reproach' even to the world.
What is it in Christendom now that we cannot discuss issues without being accused of lacking grace? I am not sure I understand. If we discuss a verifiable fact, we are accused of being ‘mean’. We have become a nation of thin skinned wimps who cannot discuss truths without bringing in emotionalism and ‘feelings’. In Christendom we are accused of lacking 'grace' as if the precious blood was cheap.
Would you please show us how to tell truths with grace? Not a grace that looks the other way and hides grievous sins sweeping them under the rug. But a real grace that values Christs blood on the cross. Sin is that serious. We cannot continue in sin knowing truth and expect salvation. (Hebrews 10)
Judgment begins at the house of the Lord. And, if we really love one another, we will rebuke each other and hold each other accountable. We are a Holy Priesthood. A nation set apart. And, we are all sinners…it is our ATTITUDE toward sin that is telling. (1 John)
lin wrote:
"Would you please show us how to tell truths with grace? Not a grace that looks the other way and hides grievous sins sweeping them under the rug."
Yes, Lin, I'm still waiting to hear the answer to that one, too.
Interesting discussion going on here:
http://forums.baptistlife.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4024#p50518
A comment from a pastor on the Baptist Life Forum:
Several pastors who have been my highly respected mentors have offered me much advice in these matters, which I take seriously. Even though I am not a pastor, I apply these principles when I serve churches in a staff position.
I believe the pastor's salary, benefits, allowances, and any other compensation received from the church should be open and known by the congregation. The pastor should not have any authority to deal with any financial matters of the church, and his expenses over $1,000 should be approved by the finance committee in advance. If he uses a church credit card, it should have a $1,000 limit on it, and a matching expense report should be turned in with the monthly statement. He should not be a signatory on any church accounts.
If a pastor is full time, that is his primary job, and he should not hold outside employment without the expressed approval of the congregation. Adjunct professorships and other such employment should not interfere with his ability to give at least 40 hours of work time to the church. The pastor should not own a private business venture that has any business dealings with the church.
The church is the final authority in hiring or dismissing staff. A personnel committee handles the details. The pastor has reasonable, but not final or authoritative, input. None of his family members or relatives should ever work for the church, or for a business that has dealings with the church.
Frankly, I don't care how large the congregation may be, anyone who is made into a millionaire by serving as the pastor of any church, regardless of its size, has been grossly overpaid.
One more comment from Baptist Life:
Not all bloggers are troublemakers. That's an old, old dodge. Anyone who raises questions about the activities of the pastor is a "troublemaker." Sometimes the trouble has already been made, and the blogger just brings it to the light of day, where all church business should be conducted anyway.
This megachurch attitude of operating in secret, behind close doors, because you don't want people to know what you are up to, has crept into the SBC with the former megachurch pastors who got promotions to agency administration, and it has caused nothing but trouble. Had it not been for bloggers, Southern Baptists would still be in the dark about the nepotism, and wasteful expenditures of missions money given sacrificially. If everything in these churches was open and above board, there would be no need for bloggers.
Thought for the evening:
Warriors of Truth do not feed trolls. Depend on NASS to use the trolling motor in an appropriate manner - with grace and accuracy.
gmommy wrote:
"so SG's is not perfect and the scriptures for him are just guidelines....
and he has stated himself to the deacons that he is not accountable to anyone...."
...as well being heard to say as recently as a couple of months ago that he still sees NO reason why PW is disqualified for the ministry and thinks a confessed child molester (and known sexual predator) should still be on staff.
So in answer to your question, Jon, "Did SG apologize for not bringing this to the church? I am not seeking your thought on if he should have done it sooner but did he apologize and say it was wrong to have not brought this and that a situation like this had not been dealt with by him prior in his ministry?"...
I'd have to say the answer is no. While SG said words to that effect, he apparently didn't learn anything from this particular mistake of the mind and would repeat it in a heartbeat.
P.S. NASS will now detroll!
Thanks Lin - GREAT forum.
Yeah, Lin. They get into some interesting discussions on that board. And most of them are {gasp!} "moderates"!
Lily,
Will be looking for you on the right!...
running out to buy shoes:)
Great posting Lin. That pretty much sums up everything.
BTW, on a sadder note: The found the body of that missing Ohio woman. They arrested the cop that is believed to be the baby's father on 2 counts of murder.
jon estes said,
I just noticed that this blog does not allow anonymous blogging but as I check out some of the posters links, they continue to remain anonymous. This is quite funny.
oc says: Funny. Right. Ha ha.None of this is funny. Anonymous? Not really. Mine's not. You can shoot an email right to me. And my name shows. Boy. What is really your purpose here? I'm wondering. Bet if we talk then things are not so funny as you believe they are. I'm not such a humorous guy when it comes to what this pastor has done. Have you taken into account what has been done here? You think all this is ok? Is this normal procedure for a pastor? Talk to me then, and enlighten me. Do your congregants accept this kind of behavior from you?
I am really hoping that you haven't beaten your sheep. But I don't know, you seem to want to defend the abuser. You give us all reason to wonder if we can trust another 'pastor' again.
Just sayin.
oc.
watchman said...
Ex KGB agent and defector details the famous and not-so famous "useful idiots" that yoga and meditation have produced in America.
This is a video that should be must viewing for all ho beleive Yoga and meditation are benign and harmless spiritually and nationally.
Thanks for that link. I watched several clips of the Yuri Bezmenov interview and found them absolutely riveting. My Dad's always been a strong anti-Communist (he was a Bircher back in the day) and I've heard him talk about the techniques used by the Soviets to undermine the U.S. To hear a former KGB agent say exactly the same thing made my jaw drop. :-O
water lily,
Wow. You tore up the alleys. Rock on. Thanks for your presence.
oc.
NASS,
You've got mail
Don't know if any of you knew a sweet senior at Bellevue by the name of Nell Barnes (she wore the most fabulous hats - always looked beautiful), anyway she went to her heavenly home yesterday. Heart attach on the way to the hospital was what I was told.
On an different subject, I was told that BBC has hired 5 new ministers. How nice.
Lilly pad,
There was a very attractive, well put together, lady at GBC Memorial Day weekend/Sunday in a blue, maybe blue/white stripped dress with matching hat and holiday slippers. She may have had blonde or gray hair. She was sitting alone in the 10:30 service and left after the music. I got the feeling she had been at the first service and stayed to hear the music again in the 2nd service.
Do you think it could have been her?
I was thinking when I saw her, what a fun loving, high spirited person she must be. She looked so happy.
Sleepless,
I don't know, but your description certainly sounds like her. She had a very hard life in her younger years, but was the most graciously lady and always smiling.
I will ask and see if she had been attending elsewhere in the last few months.
LilyPad
Sheepless,
YO, you're not such a bad bowler.
280? Not bad. Roll on. :)
OC,
Thanks...thought you were ignoring me and my bowling talents!
You're pretty dog gone good yurself..rolling, rollinnnn on the river..er lanes.
Sheepless - sorry I called you Sleepless (that's my condition), but anyway, it was good to see a glimpse of everyone's talents last night, except for those lane hoppers.
Sorry folks, had to go with LilyPad. Thanks Padroc.
Not to mention I had to post cause the verification is: fatzpizl
Nass,
Could ya, would ya, show SOTL's picture from last nites bowling outing again. I tried to, put I couldn't.
The Queen needs a little tiarra! Maybe some rhinestone bowling shoes, I know her little footsies got tired last nite with all that hoppin from lane to lane.
sheepless,
Awww. How can I ignore you? Bowling from one alley to another? In a different county? How can I forget that? Rock on, Sheepless!
OC,
280, is that good? I never could get those numbers straight.
Hey guys,
SOTL's photo pose is at 6:46 pm tonite.
She's reallllly cute!
Ya'll, lighten up on those bowlers who after releasing the ball (or kicking it as the case may be), were heard to say time after time,
"WHOOMP, THERE IT IS". :}
Where is concernedsbcer and Cakes???????
Nite all.
Enjoy the Lord's Day in God's house, somewhere.
"WHOOMP, THERE IT IS". :}
I remember that ....
sheepless is not sleepless if she goes to bed at 10!!!!
This is the late night blog.
alltojesus,
sure did miss seeing those skateboard flips!!!!
Lily pad said,
WHOOMP, THERE IT IS". :}
oc says:
I noticed that every single bowler there trusted their souls to someone called 'Jesus'. What was that about?
Can you tell me about it? :)
Someone?
Oh yes OC,
Who can cheer the heart like Jesus,
By His Presence all divine?
True and tender, pure and precious,
O how blest to call Him mine!
Love of Christ so freely given, Grace of God beyond degree,
Mercy higher than the heaven,
Deeper than the deepest sea.
What a wonderful redemption!
Never can a mortal know
How my sin tho' red like crimson, Can be whiter than the snow.
Every need His hand supplying, Every good in Him I see;
On His strength divine relying,
He is all in all to me.
By the crystal flowing river
With the ransomed I will sing,
And forever and forever,
Praise and glorify the King.
All that thrills my soul is Jesus;
He is more than life to me;
And the fairest of ten thousand,
In my blessed Lord I see.
Hi all you bowling team members...I've been resting all day....sore from all my strikes! Can't wait to bowl together again soon!
Hey ConcernedSBCer,
Glad to see you...I was wondering if your back was OK!!!
Lin: Your posts are fabulous. I have had such a hard time with Jon saying he's never read PDL, yet there are direct quotes from it on his blog.
I also have struggled with many of the issues you dealt with .....for example.....I want to tell someone the truth in grace and love, but what if they don't listen? Do you just let the sin continue because they won't listen to you when you graciously try to get answers to hard questions? It seems like that is what is being suggested we do. How is that scriptural. I still believe Matt. 18 has been followed. Now what?
Lily: I just have to tell you....what a delightful team member you are.
You said: "On an different subject, I was told that BBC has hired 5 new ministers. How nice." This is puzzling to me. Surely folks know what a mess is going on.....they want to get in the middle of it? I just don't understand this.
lily pad,
Oh my dear friend. Thank you for that. So sweet. What a witness you bear. Thank you, my precious sister in Christ.
Just sayin.
oc.
I ran into Tim Shelton this morning at Circuit City. We spoke for a second, but nothing really happened and BBC was NOT brought up except he said "Hope to see you Sunday". I told him "ok" but I doubt I will be back there anytime soon.
Goodnite Warriors.
How blest to call you my Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
In Him
By Him
Through Him
Because of Him
Night lily pad,
We love you.
Concernedsbcer said,
Hi all you bowling team members...I've been resting all day....sore from all my strikes! Can't wait to bowl together again soon!
oc says: Awww, you only got one strike, sissy.
Just sayin.
oc.
"I also have struggled with many of the issues you dealt with .....for example.....I want to tell someone the truth in grace and love, but what if they don't listen? Do you just let the sin continue because they won't listen to you when you graciously try to get answers to hard questions? It seems like that is what is being suggested we do. How is that scriptural. I still believe Matt. 18 has been followed. Now what?"
Ephesians 5, perhaps? I have had to cut off fellowship some people in my life who are professing Christians yet refuse to repent of continual grievous sin. But that does not stop me from contending for the faith. That does not stop me from telling truths.
The problem you all have is that Matthew 18 is not for public sins. It is for personal offenses. The second problem is that there is no discipline in the church anymore. Not only is there no discipline but the violaters are the elders! (1 Tim and Titus)
Come on friends, can it still be a church?
We are still called to contend for the faith. (Jude)
Prayerfully study Matthew 5-23. It explains so much. Read it 100x if you have to.
I do believe, however, the true church is alive and well. Even in America. It just does not look like what we think of church looking like. The church is the Body of Christ. It is made up of individual believers. It is made up of people who truly love our Savior, Lord Jesus Christ and take scripture very seriously. VERY SERIOUSLY. They do not seek to be 'first'. They do not seek recognition, position, fame or worldly wealth. They do not think that precious Blood was cheap and so easily covers continuous rebellion and sin.
There is something about scripture that I can hardly explain. We read something in scripture and think nothing of it...but in reality... it is HUGE. Every Inspired Word..even the grammar used.. is for our teaching and correction.
Example: Read scripture outloud out of a real Bible like the ESV (not a paraphrase) to a young child. Of course, you will have to explain every other word. But it is scary. Explain 'tares being thrown into the fire' to a 6 year old. It is a wake up call. Some people would call that cruel but it is TRUTH. What is cruel is NOT telling people the TRUTH of what is waiting for us all if we do not continually repent and grow in Holiness. Without Holiness (Sanctification) no one will see God. (Hebrews 12-I think)
In reality, the Christian life is a struggle in the here and now. We do not have 'victory' in physical/material terms until Jesus comes back. Have we really counted the cost of this continual fight? I fear for that myself. Have I really counted the cost of following Christ?
We are surrounded by 'Professing' Christians (see Matthew 7) that call good evil and evil good. But we are to hate what God hates and love what God loves. (This statement is usually a shock to people and I am reluctant to even write it) We are to HATE sin. All sin...especially the sin in ourselves.
But I find that if we go by the adage that no one can point out the sin of others before they deal with ALL their own sin... then we can never hear any sermons because no one could preach...not even the most godly of men.
Oh, I am rambling...sorry...but one last question to everyone:
If Gaines (or anyone else involved) repented of everything tomorrow and resigned from ministry...is there anyone here that would not extend the hand of fellowship to him?
Lin: You make excellent points. While much of what I posted was in response to your response to Jon, I'm thrilled you addressed those said issues. I have said for at least 8 years that church discipline needs to be restored (after an incident concerning my ex-husband) as a way to bring repentance and restoration. I have difficulty with pat answers that some visitors wish to impart to the BBC truthseekers while not following scripture with regard to sin and consequences.
Thank you for your wisdom and truth.
"While much of what I posted was in response to your response to Jon,.."
I am sorry! I am such a blonde sometimes. (Blushing in embarrassment)
You are asking what to do in a situation where Matthew 18 process has been dealt with to no avail?
Here is what John McArthur says about that...
http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/2007/06/professing-believers-in-continual-sin.html
"Do you just let the sin continue because they won't listen to you when you graciously try to get answers to hard questions? It seems like that is what is being suggested we do. How is that scriptural. I still believe Matt. 18 has been followed. Now what?"
I need sleep. I went back to look at your question again. Still some of hte stuff I wrote before stands..
Eph 5- Do not associate with unfruitful deeds of darkness
Jude- Contend for the faith
Matthew 7 and 24, 1 Timothy, 2 Peter, Jude, 1 John 4- Warn of false teachers
I need some sleep!!
There's been another billboard sighting! See the topic heading for details.
Lin: Sleep-deprived or not, thanks for the thoughtful answers. I think I'm probably tired too! Thanks for your help!
concernedSBCer said...
Lin: Your posts are fabulous. I have had such a hard time with Jon saying he's never read PDL, yet there are direct quotes from it on his blog.
Jon:That's interesting, could you please direct me to those direct quotes? Since I have never read PDL, I'd like to see where I directly quoted the book.
Seems like the dark side blog owner is back at work. This was spotted on one of Jon Estes blogs.
Mike Bratton said....
Jon, this is completely off-topic, but I've encountered some of your helpful posts on a forum antithethical to the well-being of Bellevue Baptist in Memphis.
You may have noticed you've walked into something of a hornet's nest; as someone who's been dealing with the hornets for nearly a year, I may be able to be of some help. Please e-mail me if you like.
--Mike
June 22, 2007 8:57 AM
Should brother Jon be informed about hornet killer Mike?
I have enjoyed reading Jon Estes blogs. I really enjoyed reading his wife's blog. I was truly blessed by what I read there and she seems to have a real sweet spirit.
Answer for Jon: "Second, I stated I would live by the axiom, “It’s not about me”. "
(from your resignation letter)
Jon: You seem like someone who is really trying to help, and I appreciate that. I have read alot of your blog and I truly believe you believe you are helping. I don't disagree with everything you have said at all. I just think you might be oversimplyfing and understating some of the true problems. All I'm saying is that love, mercy, and grace is not God's complete character. There are many instances in the Bible where the truth was spoken forthrightly and without too much mercy! Granted, that is certainly for God to do because He is God. But, truly, the leadership at BBC needs to be held accountable, to answer some hard questions. All believers are priests with acess to the Throne. I know it's difficult and overwhelming coming in at this point and not having much of the background in this situation. For a year now every avenue, including grace and mercy, has been tried to work with leadership at BBC and it's just not happening. And this is a pattern with this pastor. It is wrong to open the church up to the dangers of closed books, a pedophile being allowed to stay on staff, and no business meetings. Law has been openly defied on several occasions. It's wrong for an SBC church to be run this way: it's wrong to put children in danger because (for whatever reason) action was not taken concerning an admitted homosexual pedophile; it's wrong to put the tax exempt status of a church in jepordy because a church credit card was used for personal expenses; it's wrong to take a 15 year old girl out of worship service (where by all accunts she was taking sermon notes) and handcuff her, cuss at her, and refuse to get her mother; it's wrong to trespass into a gated community, deny it initially, then admit it with a laugh and a claim that it was only an "itty, bitty fence; it's wrong for a pastor to be hired on the premise of being a, well, pastor then after he arrives he informs the congregation he will not be preaching on Wednesday nights; it's wrong for tithe money ($25,000) to be sent to a church of a different denomination with vastly different view on the sanctity of life..........and it's wrong to take a vibrant, growing church, change it's culture, then tell everyone who disagrees to leave, or fire them.
It's really difficult for me to understand how I should make these facts sound kinder and more merciful and to have more grace concerning the obvious unrepented sin. I think the truthseekers of BBC have had grace, but also have been unwilling to compromise God's Word.
concernedSBCer said...
Answer for Jon: "Second, I stated I would live by the axiom, “It’s not about me”. "
(from your resignation letter)
That is the axiom by which I live. That is why I attempt to use words here that speak to those here, not those who are not here. Words for them, to them are meant that way. It is my belief that for me to speak of anyone who does not post on this forum, on this forum, would be wrong. Ungracious towards that person.
I am not new to knowing about your your problems, I have read this blog and the SB blog with interest and sadness. I have prayed earnestly for God to intervene. I believe He will, in His way.
Thank you for reading my blog, what you see is what you get. An imperfect preacher with imperfect typing skills, serving in an imperfect church filled with imperfect people all for a perfect God.
I know you have tried other ways to be heard. Would it be fair to ask, when this way does not get you a seat to be heard will you continue to blog about the stuff?
johnthebaptist said...
I have enjoyed reading Jon Estes blogs. I really enjoyed reading his wife's blog. I was truly blessed by what I read there and she seems to have a real sweet spirit.
I out married myself, no doubt. My wife is my greatest human hero. And yes, I have heroes.
Thanks for taking time to read my blog, when things slow down (HAHAHAHAHAHA), I will post some stuff that is more than a running dialogue.
johnthebaptist said...
Seems like the dark side blog owner is back at work. This was spotted on one of Jon Estes blogs.
Mike Bratton said....
Jon, this is completely off-topic, but I've encountered some of your helpful posts on a forum antithethical to the well-being of Bellevue Baptist in Memphis.
You may have noticed you've walked into something of a hornet's nest; as someone who's been dealing with the hornets for nearly a year, I may be able to be of some help. Please e-mail me if you like.
--Mike
June 22, 2007 8:57 AM
Should brother Jon be informed about hornet killer Mike?
I'd prefer you not tell me about someone else who is not on this blog to respond, by choice or otherwise, unless it is encouraging to all.
I will never stop standing for the Truth, by whatever means are available.
I know the apostasy was prophesied, and I believe it, but that does not restrain me from seeking to sound the alarm to any who would listen and hear.
Jon,
I wish I could live in la la land like you....used to.....
sheepless wrote:
"Could ya, would ya, show SOTL's picture from last nites bowling outing again."
"The Queen needs a little tiarra!"
Okay, how's this?
I couldn't find three pairs of little rhinestone bowling shoes. Sorry.
jtb wrote:
"Seems like the dark side blog owner is back at work. This was spotted on one of Jon Estes blogs.
"Mike Bratton said....
"'Jon, this is completely off-topic, but I've encountered some of your helpful posts on a forum antithethical to the well-being of Bellevue Baptist in Memphis.
"'You may have noticed you've walked into something of a hornet's nest; as someone who's been dealing with the hornets for nearly a year, I may be able to be of some help. Please e-mail me if you like.'"
If you're going to use big words to try to impress people, it's much more efficacious if you spell them correctly!
Advice to Jon, lovingly offered, is... don't go there! Rather, you might want to find a tree near that camp where you're staying this week, take a hammer, a box of nails, and a big glob of Jello and try to nail the latter to said tree. It's a more productive use of your time.
"Hornets"? Real nice, Mike. Especially from one who has blasted others for "name-calling" and urges us to just "debate the issues."
jon estes said....
I'd prefer you not tell me about someone else who is not on this blog to respond, by choice or otherwise, unless it is encouraging to all.
Reply: Don't worry brother, I wasn't going to tell you anything. You can find that out on your own.
Funny, you didn't say that to Mike when you responded to him about this blog.
Just remember your words to me when you email Mike like you said you were going to.
I truly hope you had a wonderful service at your church.
Let's see.
Example #1
MB leaves a comment on Jon's blog, warning him about the "hornets" on this blog.
Jon replies: "Thanks Mike,
My prayers are with you and the happenings at BBC. I will e-mail you next week, when I get home and sit down."
Example #2
JTB leaves a comment on this blog asking if we should warn Brother Jon about the "hornet killer."
Jon replies: "I'd prefer you not tell me about someone else who is not on this blog to respond, by choice or otherwise, unless it is encouraging to all."
NASS replies: I detect a double standard here, but you have been kindly, and yes, encouragingly, warned. 'Nuff said.
NASS
Thank you so much for my photo on here. I think it is a very good likeness to THE Queen. The tiara was a nice touch.
Now my outfit is complete.
:)
SOTL,
I bet THE Queen doesn't have a lovely pink one like yours! :-D
For those interested I did e-mail Mike Bratton already and I spoke of no one here directly. I emphasized my prayer for BBC and her leaders, my heavy heart for the whole mess. Nothing different than I have done here.
As you copied what he wrote, I spoke directly to that and a private matter which was an observation of mine that had nothing to do with this blog except it was that matter which caused me to post here after I read the blog.
I do not know MB and would not know if I would recognize him even now that I have seen his picture.
I promise if I ever have the chance to speak to him about what I see him doing or read him writing, I will approach him with truth and grace. Anything else would be wrong.
"I know you have tried other ways to be heard. Would it be fair to ask, when this way does not get you a seat to be heard will you continue to blog about the stuff?"
That is it in a nutshell, folks. You blog about it and that is what frightens pastors. Just like the printing press frightened the Pope's and Bishops. For a good reason.
Of course, I would agree with Mr. Estes if one is blogging about the color of carpet at church, etc. I even cringe when I hear you all talk about the music. Who cares? It is the truth of the Word for which we must contend.
What is REAL serious is the ignoring/twisting and proof texting of scripture, harboring a pedophile minister, and all the other ungodly behavior of the leadership.
There are still people there who do not know Biblical truths. They do not know they are following false teachers. IF this blog drives one person to scripture in depth, in context, it is worth it. So, I have to ask...is there anyone here that has been challenged biblically by this blog?
Quite frankly, I would sit under the teaching of Ezekial and AOG any day. They have proven to be Bereans, studied, and have a love for the Word and the truths therein no matter what the cost.
But, if Mr. Estes can convince you all it is a sin to point out 'sin' in the twisting/ignoring of scripture...then they can marginalize you and scare others away from believing that any of it really matters in the eternal long run. But, it DOES matter. God left us His Word for a reason. It is not to be taken lightly.
The reason why his admonishment may work is because most of us do not study scripture in context in depth. Another reason is because most pastors have not, either. They are too busy with building programs, events, entertainment and church growth programs for serious discipling. Some are very busy writing books and speaking engagements.
And then we have the problem that many of us have not heard a serious sermon on sanctification in our entire lives. (I once read of an old preacher that preached on Romans for 6 years!)
Nowadays, I never assume that any one with the title of pastor is totally sold out to the Full Counsel of God. And I certainly do not subscribe to the unbiblical tenant that just because you carry the title of 'pastor' you are 'anointed' above other believers. That is cultish, popery and is NOT of Christ.
And yes, I detected a double standard, too. Perhaps Mr. Bratton's blog is an example of 'grace and truth' to Mr. Estes.
I have asked Mr. Estes to give us an example of truth and grace in action when grievous sin is in the leadership with no repentance.
I found it strange that Mr. Estes' first comment to us, as a pastor, was a teaching out of a book called the Three Kings. He implied that we were throwing 'spears' to God's anointed. That, in and of itself, is is a twisting of the truths of the NT.
We must all be Bereans.
There is Grace in Truth, Mr. Estes. I do not hate you. I LOVE you.
gmommy said...
Jon,
I wish I could live in la la land like you....used to.....
8:15 AM, June 24, 2007
What la la land is that? I am very aware of my surroundings and the happenings. If I am wrong maybe you can help and show me that to which you speak.
Lin said...
"I know you have tried other ways to be heard. Would it be fair to ask, when this way does not get you a seat to be heard will you continue to blog about the stuff?"
That is it in a nutshell, folks. You blog about it and that is what frightens pastors. Just like the printing press frightened the Pope's and Bishops. For a good reason.
You are reading way to much into what I am saying, misinterpreting me for some reason.
My question about ending the blog was not out of fear but in context of a statement made. We have tried other methods... (not exact quote). The intent, I will share to be helpful, was to seek what the next step would be since the blog does not seem to be helping the BBC staff hear your pleas.
I hope you will proclaim the truth and nothing but the truth but you do it with grace. For many here this is lacking greatly.
But, if Mr. Estes can convince you all it is a sin to point out 'sin' in the twisting/ignoring of scripture...then they can marginalize you and scare others away from believing that any of it really matters in the eternal long run.
This is a total misrepresentation of what I have stated, and I believe you are aware of such. I forgive you for your misrepresentation and ask that be careful. If you can do this so easily to what I have been saying it is possible you are doing it as others speak too.
Present the truth but do it with grace. A grace which shows the message of Jesus Christ to lost people.
It's not that difficult.
Estes wrote: “The intent, I will share to be helpful, was to seek what the next step would be since the blog does not seem to be helping the BBC staff hear your pleas.”
This blog has moved WAY past the staff at BBC not hearing the pleas, sir. It is a community of believers who have been united because of a horrible thing. There is sin here that must be repented of (beginning with ME), love, tears, warnings, Biblical discussions, fellowship, discussion of finding new churches, a bowling tournament and hopefully a growing in the Word. That is my real prayer for this blog.
Estes wrote: ”I hope you will proclaim the truth and nothing but the truth but you do it with grace. For many here this is lacking greatly.”
Again, I ask you for specifics. How can we know if you do not point them out and show us?
“But, if Mr. Estes can convince you all it is a sin to point out 'sin' in the twisting/ignoring of scripture...then they can marginalize you and scare others away from believing that any of it really matters in the eternal long run.
Estes wrote: This is a total misrepresentation of what I have stated, and I believe you are aware of such. I forgive you for your misrepresentation and ask that be careful. If you can do this so easily to what I have been saying it is possible you are doing it as others speak too.”
What have I misrepresented? You keep saying this but do not give me specifics. I will fix it if you tell me. If the meaning in your first comment, using the Three Kings, was different than what I perceived then please, tell me.
Estes wrote: Present the truth but do it with grace. A grace which shows the message of Jesus Christ to lost people.
Mr. Estes, the next time Jesus comes it will be in Holy Wrath. Those who are not saved will perish in hell. The GRACE was on the Cross and continues for those who are being sanctified. We cannot continue in rebellion and sin and expect to be saved. We cannot twist His Holy Word or ignore it and expect to be saved. Not me, not you, not Gaines, not anyone.
Ironically, Jesus’ first recorded sermons of His ministry in Matthew and Mark consisted of: Repent. That is the message to the lost!! Repent and believe!!
Oh, that we would all repent daily and grow in Holiness. Mr. Estes, If I have misrepresented you and lacked grace, please show me. I will repent of it gladly.
Grace and Peace of our Savior to you.
Lin,
Don't forget that time in the temple when Jesus overturned tables in the temple tossing the thieves out on their keisters.
Piglet said...
Jon
Please be aware that MB still defends the right of Steve Gaines to send $25,000.00 to a pro-abortion, homosexual rights activist church - and uses the passage about the Good Samaritan as his text. He clearly does not find error in much of what has ocurred in these past two years.
I challenge you to broach the subject with him and then remember NASS's analogy of nailing jello to a tree (or wall).
Truth is compromised and grace is cheap when you call sin a mere difference of opinion.
Time for a nap.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Encourage one another.
These words taken out of the middle of a verse have very little meaning. Those 3 words remind me of the current fake christianity - feel good, leave that sin stuff out, and just encourage one another. Encourage to do what exactly? I am not sure.
On another topic, I was feed real, heavy duty meat today at Church. The high bar of holiness was the title of the message. Excerpts: We are clearly commanded in God's Word to live a Godly life in an ungodly world. Let there be no confusion as to the utlimate consequence of ungodliness.
THE BELIEVER IS WARNED OF THE DANGER OF BEING DECEIVED INTO BELIEVING ERROR NOT TRUTH.
Empty words can be powerfully spoken.
FORM NO FRIENDSHIPS WITH FALSEHOOD.
A truly powerful message. I have some repenting to do and must examine how ungodliness has crept into my daily life and eliminate it.
Billboard: Let us encourage one another. Hebrews 10:25
Here is this verse in the context of the teaching in Hebrews...it is a passage also teaching us about the opening of the curtain and we can enter into the place that was reserved for the High Priest only before the Cross. We can ENTER. We no longer need a high priest...the veil was torn! Praise God. The teaching in verses 26+ are so very important to us all...
Hebrews 10:
19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
This teaching excites me because this part of Hebrews, Matthew 7 and 1 John are the teachings that seared my soul and truly saved me.
James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
Hey Blog friends,
Because a certain person continues to disrespect the blog master's ban,
And because Jon sounds too mush like the script we have heard so many times but I really really don't want to be disrespectful to him
but feel his presense is not sincere......
it's not the right time for me to share the wonderful wonderful news I have.
BUT!!! I have shared before that the first 3 months I attended BBC as a 24 year old girl and listened to the Word taught, my heart was so convicted and I was so in awe of the holiness of the Lord....I couldn't stop crying.
I experienced that today again.
Not because the minister's voice was beautiful.
Not because the church was beautiful.
Lin will have to cover me here because I can't say it properly.
When God's word isn't distorted or manipulated.
When there aren't bells and whistles to distract...
When the minister speaking doesn't stink from sin
BUT is humbled and in awe and fear of the Lord
the Holy Spirit convicts and moves your heart to repentance.
I had forgotten.
I am overwhelmed and ashamed.
Back to the topic of this thread ... the billboards found so far appear to be "one another" passages. It's great to be reminded to live in harmony with one another, pray for one another, encourage one another, etc. Since "Love one another" is the most often repeated "one another" phrase in the New Testament, that one is probably out there someplace, or will be.
But here are a few more "one another" passages that I somehow doubt we will see on BBC billboards any time soon ...
Leviticus 19:11
Do not deceive one another.
James 4:11
Do not slander one another.
Galatians 5:13
Do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.
Ephesians 5:21
Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Colossians 3:16
Teach and admonish one another
1 Peter 5:5
All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another
Romans 16:16 (also 1 Corinthians 16:20 & 2 Corinthians 13:12)
Greet one another with a holy kiss.
junk,
Congratulations on being the first to mention the "theme." This is for you. Brilliant.
gmommy,
PRAISE GOD. I am filled with joy for you!!
Hey ya'll hornets!
What's stingin?
To supercalifragilistic..whatever lynn.
Man, you are killing me. Get a simpler name. :)
To SOTL. Your picture. Glad you are prettier in person. Isn't it hard to bowl with those insect legs?
Just askin.
oc.
Will this fit on a billboard?
Acts 17:29"Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
30"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
"Heb 10:26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
Love, mercy, grace. "under the blood"....
Really?
Ezekial's billboard suggestion is good, but I don't think it would fit on a billboard. I do however think it would be most fiting to hear preached from the pulpit. Such a contrast to what is on the i2 website: "We want to fall in love with the God who saves."
Billboard suggestion that is scriptural and appropriate for Memphis:
THOU SHALT NOT KILL.
Lily: You are on to something...could that possibly be a series of 10????
Lily all alone on blog pad. Lily is using blog as procrastinating tool. Message received - get off blog and get your stuff done.
Lily,
Ain't that the truth!
Hey, I just got home! Don't leave yet! Been to a Make A Wish event. It actually was uplifting in many ways, but the main one.....one of our MAW friends starting talking about how God has everything planned and how people don't give Him enough credit, even when it takes us a loooooong time to see His plan. It was a sweet one-on-one time. And an important point to remember. :)
New bbc open forum said:
Lily,
Ain't that the truth!
Reply: Er, uh, you were referring to my billboard suggestion and not my comment about procastinating and getting off the blog weren't you? :-}
ezekiel said...
Will this fit on a billboard?
Acts 17:29"Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
30"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Might not all fit, but just v. 30 would, and might get some attention!
Junk: Great suggestion! Vs. 30 would be perfect!
(And what translation is that???)
concernedsbcer
Howdy. Check yo mail. :)
NASB. I have an esv that I really like but it does not have references. So I go to the nasb for references when something catches my eye.....
Anyone hear from Cakes since our bowling night?????
gmommy said...
Hey Blog friends,
Because a certain person continues to disrespect the blog master's ban,
And because Jon sounds too mush like the script we have heard so many times but I really really don't want to be disrespectful to him
but feel his presense is not sincere......
May I ask what it is about my posting that brings you to the feeling that I am insincere?
Jon,
I do not wish to be ugly or engage in any debate with you.
Respond to Lin's 6/24,2:44 post that is TO you, or Ezekiel's 6/24, 9:01 post, instead of asking me what I am FEELING.
I don't trust you period.
If you have any honorable motivation for posting on this blog, respond to them concerning God's word.
We get more than we need of the copy and paste scriptures concerning
grace,mercy,forgiveness without repentance
at BBC and many other churches in our area and I guess yours.
Read for yourself about the holiness of God in Eph.
Read Galations 5:15.....
Be concerned for the weaker brother that will stumble because of the deliberate efforts of the Baptist ministers not teaching the full gospel in their churches today.
Don't ask this gmommy why I feel your intentions are not pure.
You are a minister.
Discuss and learn scripture in context from Lin, Ez,allofgrace,or 25+.
I challenge you.
Lin said...
I would really love to hear your view of how to balance truth and grace. My experience has been that when someone says we are lacking in grace, they just do not like the issue that is being discussed. Many times truth is well...just negative. (Ironically, I was reading recently a book on Apologetics by Bruce that said the NT is 53% negative in character and by design)
If you think about it, you came here to rebuke us for what you deem is a lack of grace without explaining how one confronts sin with grace.
What is it in Christendom now that we cannot discuss issues without being accused of lacking grace? I am not sure I understand. If we discuss a verifiable fact, we are accused of being ‘mean’. We have become a nation of thin skinned wimps who cannot discuss truths without bringing in emotionalism and ‘feelings’. In Christendom we are accused of lacking 'grace' as if the precious blood was cheap.
Would you please show us how to tell truths with grace? Not a grace that looks the other way and hides grievous sins sweeping them under the rug. But a real grace that values Christs blood on the cross. Sin is that serious. We cannot continue in sin knowing truth and expect salvation. (Hebrews 10)
6:59 PM, June 23, 2007
Mr. Estes,
There were some very valid questions asked by Lin above that I don't recall you answering. Those questions, if properly answered, would give you more credence with some here than just telling us to handle this situation with truth and grace. Please be more specific by answering the questions above, not just generalize. I look forward to your answers.
Lin: Estes wrote: ”I hope you will proclaim the truth and nothing but the truth but you do it with grace. For many here this is lacking greatly.”
Again, I ask you for specifics. How can we know if you do not point them out and show us?
Let me cut and paste a few statements made on this blog throughout a few different topics and you tell me where the grace is.
From the " "What is Idolatry?"" thread
Been Redeemed said...
I had heard from someone at LWF a long time ago that SG was under the impression that LWF was part of the booty that he would inherit along with BBC's millions upon his takeover.
I also heard that he was angry when he found out that it was it's own entity and he held no claim over it.
2:45 PM, June 18, 2007
_____
SUPERCALIFRAGILISTICEXPIALIDOCIOUS_lynn said...
Greenmachine wants to give Gaines a chance. Gaines has had 2 years worth of chances. And blew them miserably.
I am not sure who's more corrupt. Steve and Donna Gaines or Mike Nifong. Both of them are disgraces to their professions.
5:35 PM, June 18, 2007
_____
sickofthelies said...
Personally, I think SG belongs at Bolivar, with a room right next to his biggest cheerleader, Billy
" PW is not a pedaphile" Tapp.
10:30 PM, June 18, 2007
_____
gmommy said...
SG cared about himself only.....
what else have we seen from this man in the past 2 years??????
11:37 PM, June 18, 2007
_____
Well, these were all from one thread and not even half way through.
All of what is being talked about may be true but the tone and accusatory remarks do not demonstrate grace. They are not edifying, they are not demonstrating the far reaching arm of Christ.
In this very thread you stated:
Gaines is a false teacher/wolf and according to the NT, we are to warn of false teachers and wolves.
8:04 AM, June 22, 2007
It sounds as if you believe SG is lost, or so carnal he needs restoration. If either of these are true, will the words posted which I see as lacking grace, going to help reach a lost person or one who needs restoration in their relationship to Christ?
Gmommy,
If you don't want to answer my question that's OK, you probably believe you don't have to or need to or that it is none of my business. You stated it well, you don't trust me. I don't know what to do about that and that in itself is cause to not respond to the question posed.
I do hope you give others who may not answer your questions the same leeway in silence as you give yourself.
Lin,
I have no intention of rebuking you or anyone on this blog. I am trying to share, with grace, what I see as lacking. Do I always succeed? I wish.
I am quick to apologize when I see my error. This has caused some to consider me insincere. I can't do anything about that.
I do wish each of you here could sense my love and appreciation for you and my desire for you to have your questions answered. I preach truth every week and I work hard in making sure I balance my presentation with grace. Of course, I communicate verbally much better than I do on a keyboard.
Jon,
I'm all for "speaking the truth in love"...but these days the concept of love is a bit skewed..especially concerning God's love...there seems to be a misunderstanding that God's love is something more human...but God's love cannot be separated from His holiness...they are inextricably bound together. It is that very love that will cast the wicked into hell. It is that same love which Christ expressed when he referred to the Pharisees (religionists) as "hypocrites", "brood of vipers", "whitewashed tombs", etc. It is the same love which will say to them that say to him "Lord, Lord", "depart from, ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you." Not the ooey gooey kind of human love most seem to seek these days is it?
Jon,
OK already....we hear grace, grace.
Do you hear our "Fear God before man?????"
I DID in fact answer your questions on my FEELINGS when I said I donot trust you.
You answer nothing.
If that is all you came here to do...you did it.
Thank you. Peace and love.
Don't you have other things to do as a minister???
I still challenge you discuss WITH scripture ,with questions and answers
with Lin or the others I mentioned.
We challenge each other here.
We grow here.
We want more than the watered down gospel coming from the brotherhood of ministers.
You certainly can have your opinion but you have stated it several times....now what?
allofgrace said...
Jon,
I'm all for "speaking the truth in love"...but these days the concept of love is a bit skewed..especially concerning God's love...there seems to be a misunderstanding that God's love is something more human...but God's love cannot be separated from His holiness...they are inextricably bound together. It is that very love that will cast the wicked into hell. It is that same love which Christ expressed when he referred to the Pharisees (religionists) as "hypocrites", "brood of vipers", "whitewashed tombs", etc. It is the same love which will say to them that say to him "Lord, Lord", "depart from, ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you." Not the ooey gooey kind of human love most seem to seek these days is it?
10:58 AM, June 25, 2007
I agree with you 100%. Remember when Christ called the Pharisees (religionists: "hypocrites", "brood of vipers", "whitewashed tombs", etc. He spoke directly to them, not to the crowd about them.
I'm sure they disagreed and worked behind the scenes to get rid of this trouble maker.
I am not asking anyone here to be ooey gooey. But unless you are speaking directly to the person you are addressing let's not get personal.
When I was a missionary in Nigeria I remember teaching some young men who used flippantly, God's name. A taught them, as Christians, if they were going to use the name of God, do it when speaking to Him or about Him in a way which did not drag Him through the mud to those listening.
Could the same discipline be used by us towards others?
gmommy,
I am sorry my presentation of truth with grace towards SG seems to be a watered down gospel and has been echoed too much for you and my comments have not been seen in the same spirit I have attempted to convey.
I'll refrain from directing my opinions and comments toward you.
If you need, you can have the last word.
feelingblue said...
Mr. Estes,
There were some very valid questions asked by Lin above that I don't recall you answering. Those questions, if properly answered, would give you more credence with some here than just telling us to handle this situation with truth and grace. Please be more specific by answering the questions above, not just generalize. I look forward to your answers.
10:13 AM, June 25, 2007
I'll look back and see what specific questions have been asked and respond to them as I can.
I do wonder though why a message of needing truth and grace would need credence.
Jon,
There's not one thing "personal" in what I said..it was a statement of fact. But like my grandma used to say, "if your phone's ringing, answer it." Calling a spade a spade, such as Christ did, doesn't always sound gracious. Apparently you feel that the responses here are not in line with Scriptural standards. I would challenge you to take a look at what is documented fact and critique whether or not those matters have been handled according to the same Scriptural standards by the administration, that you keep insisting those here adhere to.
Jon L. Estes said...
(In response to feelingblue's request for specifics on Lin's questions...)
I'll look back and see what specific questions have been asked and respond to them as I can.
I do wonder though why a message of needing truth and grace would need credence.
11:15 AM, June 25, 2007
The questions was "Would you please show us how to tell truths with grace?". Please respond. Thanks.
feelingblue said...
Jon L. Estes said...
(In response to feelingblue's request for specifics on Lin's questions...)
I'll look back and see what specific questions have been asked and respond to them as I can.
I do wonder though why a message of needing truth and grace would need credence.
11:15 AM, June 25, 2007
The questions was "Would you please show us how to tell truths with grace?". Please respond. Thanks.
11:50 AM, June 25, 2007
Let me share how I attempt to live this out. Someone mentioned that on my blog I have the axiom of, "It's not about me". This is what I try to live up to.
A few verses I keep close to help are:
Philip. 2:3 (NKJV)
Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
I try and stop before I act or speak as to is what I do and what I say demonstrate the love of Christ to a lost world. Will my actions and speech draw people to Jesus or push them away.
2 Cor. 5:15 (NKJV)
[15] and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
How do we live these verses, along with many more, out practically?
I don't know if I can convey it as I have been told I have come here to rebuke and that is the furtherest thing from my heart and mind.
I work to make my words non-condescending or judgmental. I want to address the issue not the person. I want to use my words to build the body and not tear it down.
This can be hard when we are hurt deeply and feel we are not being listened to. Jesus hears your cries, He knows you pain.
Ask yourself if the things being posted here are edifying Christ and helping a lost world see Jesus.
You may want more and think what I say is shallow or already been done.
Using a business meeting for an illustration... My dad (a retired pastor now in heaven) always said, our business meetings ought to be able to be held in the largest mall on the busiest day and as we conduct business people ought to see Jesus and get saved.
Thanks for letting me share.
jon estes said on 1/24...
The intent, I will share to be helpful, was to seek what the next step would be since the blog does not seem to be helping the BBC staff hear your pleas.
Reply: Brother, that is one thing this blog does do. They won't meet face to face but we can make our issue made know here. They have people watching this blog, if they aren't reading it themselves.
Example, there have been a couple of mistakes in the online version of the church bulletin. When the error was brought up here, there changes were quickly made. Coincidence? I think not.
Example, Steve gets sermon idea's and illustrations from things posted on here. If not, it is quite canny how his sermons are used to brow beat us on the very exact topics discussed here. Not always but more than a few times.
correction, not 1/24 but 6/24...sorry!
Jon L. Estes said...
Remember when Christ called the Pharisees (religionists: "hypocrites", "brood of vipers", "whitewashed tombs", etc. He spoke directly to them, not to the crowd about them.
I think I understand your point, but I'm not sure. If you're saying that we should be willing to confront those who sin directly, to call them to repentance (as opposed to working in secret to cause them harm), I agree. But if you're saying we shouldn't air our grievences publicly, I don't think your example supports that.
When Jesus said those things to the Pharisees it was in front of his disciples and large crowds (see Matthew 23). And He also said unflattering (but true) things about them when speaking to his disciples privately (Matthew 16) and in front of others where the Pharisees may not have been present (Luke 12).
If by showing grace in our communications you mean that they should reflect an attitude of concern versus condemnation, I think everyone would agree with you (though you won't have a hard time fnding examples where most have fallen short of that standard). But if you are saying that we shouldn't at all be talking publicly about the public sins of others (sins with corporate impacts), I don't think that position could be supported scripturally.
Mr. Estes,
Other than to stop blogging and taking cheap shots at Steve Gaines and others who support what he has done to our church and church family, what else would you do - specifically - to bring the truth to light? I hope you would suggest a face to face meeting or even a church business meeting. Since those are apparently out of the question, what next? Please tell us what we should do next that would bring the truth to light without losing grace at the same time? I really want to know specifics, not what your father would do at his business. We are in a quandry to go along with your mixing grace with truth and need specifics to go along with the idea. Please help.
Jon said: "I try and stop before I act or speak as to is what I do and what I say demonstrate the love of Christ to a lost world. Will my actions and speech draw people to Jesus or push them away." and "Ask yourself if the things being posted here are edifying Christ and helping a lost world see Jesus."
I see no fault with these statements, on the surface. However, I have a concern. As Christians, we are supposed to exhibit Christ-like attitudes and actions (I must point out this also includes leadership in our churches). I believe we are to "Go and preach...." and that churches are for Christians to worship and grow. I would hope that others might see this blog as a search for Truth, as a search to stand on God's rightly divided Word, and as a forum to keep leadership accountable, because we are all responsible for our corporate church. These issues that have been brought up are within the church.
In my opinion, we owe it to unbelievers to keep the church as pure as possible. We are to be in the world but not of the world. We are supposed to be DIFFERENT.
This blog would never exist if the leadership at BBC would have followed God's statutes. Please, let's put the responsibility where it belongs. Yes, we on the blog try to deal with these difficult issues with as much grace as is humanly possible, but it is crucial that the responsibilty and consequences of it's origin is correctly seen.
Jon, I seldom post here but I read this blog most every day. I was a member of BBC from 1980 to 1995 when my wife and I moved back to Nashville, TN. We joined BBC not because we idolized a man, but because he preached the Word of God, that simple. In every sermon we heard sin, grace and salvation through Jesus Christ preached. Had PW’s sin been known I assure you it would have been dealt with. But even if that had happened and SG had not had to deal with it, the sins that S has committed would be enough to disqualify him as a pastor ten fold. The misuse of the BBC credit card alone was enough to land him in jail and those who audited this and corrected it after the fact are guilty and not worthy of service in His name until all is laid at His feet and forgiveness received both from God and the members of BBC.
As a pastor you know the difficulty of witnessing to the lost in America and you know that no little part of this is due to ministers and church leaders sins going unchecked and unforgiven. God using people including ministers takes years to build up a congregation of fragile Christians but can have it torn down in a matter of months by greedy leaders or leader. There are some strong biblical Christians posting on this blog and there are some fragile, heart broken, abused on here too. Yes, too many unchristian words have been spoken here, but I believe you as a pastor could do far more good if you rallied your peers and met with SG with an effort to help him see his sinfulness and need for repentance. SG is not alone in the SBC of those taking advantage of God’s tithes, offerings and sheep, but he is the focus of this blog. From the actions and reactions of SG as described by first hand witnesses and proven God fearing men, I believe SG may have a mental disorder possibly brought on by prescription drugs, but for whatever reason you can’t reason with a man in his condition. The BBC staff and especially DC should realize this and take action. This condition still would not explain the comments made early on from Glendale or from Union City. Those comments were from a prideful heart and must be dealt with before God can truly use him. SG is unreachable by most but DC and the BBC staff can be reached so I challenge you to discuss this with your peers across the SBC and whoever else will listen. Ask them to call, write, or email the BBC staff to try to bring this festering sore to an end. Jon, please pray about this challenge and if God leads then just do it.
In His Service,
Del
Del: What wisdom and compassion you have shown here. It is not true compassion and grace to let a sinning brother continue, and damage the body of Christ, is it? I wish you would post more often....your insight is so clear. Thank you.
del,
Thank you.
Your posts always have a balance of truth,wisdom and love.
I appreciate and learn from you.
I think many that post here and there like Jon have no idea the work towards restoration we have attempted.
It seems we get our faults pointed to but no help.
Many in the ministry should have gone to SG in love early on.SG may hold the strings to the staff ministers but not to those outside our church.
Until this type of love, concern, and scriptural thinking is shown and applied by other Baptist ministers
I personally will not believe we are "safe" from this SBC "brotherhood" or good ol boy's club mentality.
PLease share with us more often.
feeling Blue..
Give us a hint
This blog would never exist if the leadership at BBC would have followed God's statutes.
Two wrongs do not a right make.
If that is the very best you can give,
I am sad for the flock you lead.
Don't you think it's time you did something worthy of your time???
And I do say that graciously.
jon wrote:
"Two wrongs do not a right make."
So because you pronounce it wrong for us to "blog" as a way of bringing the issues to light, that makes it so?
Does anyone know of any other BBC billboards???
feeling,
why did you delete??????
Acts 5:38"So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown;
39but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God."
Jon, Thanks for giving us specific examples of what you would consider a lack of grace displayed here.
There are a few of your comments that are confusing to me so I will try and address them here but I think AOG expressed several things for me as did concernedsbc'er about the purity of the church which includes elders. And the truth that Jesus rebuked the Pharisees in public many times.
Jon wrote:“I work to make my words non-condescending or judgmental. I want to address the issue not the person. I want to use my words to build the body and not tear it down.”
I am confused. How do you point out public sin by an elder without addressing the person? How does one do that by focusing on only on the ‘issue’?
I am wondering how you would respond to this scripture in context:
1 John
9I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority. 10So if I come, I will bring up what he is doing, talking wicked nonsense against us. And not content with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers, and also stops those who want to and puts them out of the church.
Shouldn’t John have addressed the issue instead of the person? He named names in a letter for the world to see. Why? Because it was a public situation and Diotrephes was a leader. There is sin in the camp and John is dealing with it publicly. (There are other examples of this in scripture but I hope you get my point)
Perhaps the real problem you have with this blog is that we are just laity and therefore not qualified?
Another problem we have brought into the church is that we cannot point out any sin or rebuke without being accused of being judgmental (casting the first stone as they always say), mean or condescending. You see, the person being rebuked…the sinner is left with the power to decide the ‘rightness’ or 'tone' of the rebuke by how they perceive the delivery! That is why no one rebukes anymore. There is no way to do it, even in love for their eternal life, that prevents it fitting into all the categories we have created: Mean, Judgmental, Condescending, Hypocrite, etc. Not only this but when there is an ‘apology’ but NO fruit of repentance we are told we are mean to point this out. Do we really care that little for a person’s eternal life? Are we going to falsely love them right into hell for unrepented sin?
So purity of the church suffers. And worse, purity of the elders suffers.
How does one ‘build up’ the Body? Answer: With TRUTH. I read not long ago of one Prince in Germany during the Reformation who declared about Christians: The more of them I kill, the more that convert. Purity and Scriptural Truth build up the Body.
Jon wrote: Ask yourself if the things being posted here are edifying Christ and helping a lost world see Jesus.
By whose standards? Scripture?
We do this by purifying the church and showing the world that we are different (as one commenter already pointed out). Jesus WILL present a pure Bride to Himself.
Right now, we are showing them a false Christianity in so many of our churches. We have left out the horrible consequences of not growing in Holiness (Being sanctified). We have dumbed down sin and repentence to the place where a pastor can refuse to meet with his sheep over harboring of a pedophile.
"This blog would never exist if the leadership at BBC would have followed God's statutes."
Jon wrote: Two wrongs do not a right make.
I go back to your first comment here about the Three Kings and ‘throwing spears at the anointed’. Again, the point you seemed to be making in that first comment is that the laity has no business rebuking the ‘anointed’ pastor. If I am wrong about that then please explain your first comment here.
We have already touched on Priesthood of believer so I will just say to this that I am greatly disappointed that there has not been any public rebuke from elders in the SBC over this whole situation and purity of the church. When pastors refuse to rebuke other pastors even when the governing elders and deacons will not hold them accountable, we have a serious problem in Christendom. Perhaps these men do not think it is their business (it is) or perhaps they don’t think it is that big of a deal. (It is)
Please do not tell me it is not a problem...I am well aware of pastors who have gone from church to church who have been caught in grievous sin. No one speaks up. We are just like the world, Jon. No, actually, we are worse.
Who is publicly rebuking Patterson? Who is publicly rebuking Gaines?
Just the unknown laity. That is sad, indeed.
Jon wrote: "It sounds as if you believe SG is lost, or so carnal he needs restoration. If either of these are true, will the words posted which I see as lacking grace, going to help reach a lost person or one who needs restoration in their relationship to Christ?"
I find your reasoning above pretty incredible. Gaines is in the pulpit preaching..he is VERY high profile in Memphis and in the US... and carries more gravitas as a witness than I ever would by title or position. Yet, you are more worried about this blog... made up of sheep lacking fame or position.
I cannot judge who is elect... we can only judge fruit.
Jon wrote:"I have no intention of rebuking you or anyone on this blog.?
Just for the record, I welcome rebuke. If my sin is false teaching or an orthopraxy that does not match my orothodoxy, then I should be publicly rebuked for all to see truth and learn.
I want to be accountable for everything I do or say in the Name of Jesus. Anything else is too scary to contemplate!!
Lin
Thank you for your contributions to this blog.
Your last two posts are right on the mark.
Might I add, and humbly so after your excellent analysis, that we mere peons who have not spent untold hours studying scripture in the seminary are being harrassed by folks (some are ministers)for some words carelessly spoken while those who should know better and are responsible "for our souls" lie, exhibit greed, break laws, refuse accountability, ignore scripture and disobey it, make horrible mistakes because of their lack of discernment and demonize anyone who speaks up.
It is a pitiful shame that these men of the cloth do not have more concern for the testimony of their peers and the influence they have on the lives of their own flock.
Do they not care that the title of minister is being reduced to that of the crooked lawyer or car salesman? ( No offense to hones lawyers and car salesmen.)
Lin
Make that your last four posts - you added two while I was typing....
Piglet: Excellent point.
You said, "Might I add, and humbly so after your excellent analysis, that we mere peons who have not spent untold hours studying scripture in the seminary are being harrassed by folks (some are ministers)for some words carelessly spoken while those who should know better and are responsible "for our souls" lie, exhibit greed, break laws, refuse accountability, ignore scripture and disobey it, make horrible mistakes because of their lack of discernment and demonize anyone who speaks up."
Goodness gracious, it is in my opinion that there has been deeper Bible study on this blog than in many churches around this country. And that scares me.
Oh, and no offense to the honest, God-fearing, Christ-honoring ministers out there either. I know there are plenty and I thank the Lord for them. :)
It's a shame they get a bad rap because of these others.....
Bro. Jon...
You mention truth and grace...
Truth, real truth, does not fear light. This leadership, though approached repeatedly in a gracious fashion, has refused to allow light to shine on the sin in the camp.
A few "mistakes" have been admitted to while glaring, public sin remains without repentance, confession, cleansing, consequences, and healing.
Please read the following excerpt from a time when reform was absolutely necessary and was blocked by religious leaders.
Luther mentions Mt. 18 and the need for a scriptural forum... but then he speaks to the need for all believers to do what is necessary to bring such a forum about if it is blocked. This was an open address to a nation at a time of crisis...
_______________
Martin Luther
Address to the Christian Nobility
of the German Nation
(1520)
The Romanists have, with great adroitness, drawn three walls round themselves, with which they have hitherto protected themselves, so that no one could reform them, whereby all Christendom has fallen terribly.
First, if pressed by the temporal power, they have affirmed and maintained that the temporal power has no jurisdiction over them, but, on the contrary, that the spiritual power is above the temporal.
Secondly, if it were proposed to admonish them with the Scriptures, they objected that no one may interpret the Scriptures but the Pope.
Thirdly, if they are threatened with a council, they pretend that no one may call a council but the Pope ...
Now may God help us, and give us one of those trumpets that overthrew the walls of Jericho, so that we may blow down these walls of straw and paper, and that we may set free our Christian rods for the chastisement of sin, and expose the craft and deceit of the devil, so that we may amend ourselves by punishment and again obtain God's favour....
The third wall falls of itself, as soon as the first two have fallen; for if the Pope acts contrary to the Scriptures, we are bound to stand by the Scriptures to punish and to constrain him, according to Christ's commandment . 'tell it unto the Church' (Matt. xviii. 15-17). . . . If then I am to accuse him before the Church, I must collect the Church together. . . .
Therefore when need requires, and the Pope is a cause of offence to Christendom, in these cases whoever can best do so, as a faithful member of the whole body, must do what he can to procure a true free council....
______________________
Remark:
Bro. Jon, That is what many at Bellevue have tried to do.
Buffers have been put in place to insulate the pastor (Communications Committees, Associate Pastors, etc.). The only business meeting that has been allowed was shut down by the leadership. After leadership derailed the scriptural remedy, this forum began calling for a true forum... a scriptural forum. This forum has been calling for truth and light that is mentioned in the verse that is over the entrance to Bellevue (Ps. 43:3).
The leadership has responded to this blog. They have used words... words like integrity... transparency... but without dealing with the sin in the camp, without opening up the books, without caring about those who have left and are leaving, they are empty words.
jmo
If Jon and Gaines are a by product of the theology being taught at the Baptist seminaries....
God HELP US ALL .....
and Please, Page Patterson,STOP firing women.
YOU NEED them to TEACH your students!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are only over your own wife not all women!
Piglet and Concernedsbcer....
I want to be more like yall....
gmommy said...
feeling,
why did you delete??????
4:07 PM, June 25, 2007
I went back and read what I had posted, didn't think it really mattered (I know it does not matter to the leadership at BBC), and therefore deleted. My heart aches and I have no pleasure in continuing this blog, even though I know in my heart it has been for the good. I am happy to see the relationships that have been formed and lives touched, but again it has torn me up inside.
I thought 25+ had deserted us!
25+
Yeah. What you said. :)
I don't know too many people who HAVEN'T talked to David Coombs at this point.
All we are told is - Gaines is staying, there will be no business meeting, the books will stay closed, there has been no wrongdoing by this leadership, and we are the problem - as though we are ALL imagining things or making things up.
The latest jab is that we all just DON'T LIKE CHANGE.
Now that makes a lot of sense doesn't it? That we would uproot our kids, take them out of the church they were born in, away from life-long friends, ball teams, band programs, etc., and start going to a brand new church? Because we just don't like change?
Please.....
Now I DO know folks who are STAYING for that reason....
feelingblue,
Please let us comfort you. I KNOW how painful it is to deal with this......
but sometimes when we don't have to plead for what is right in the sight of God,
we make jokes and lift each other up....and have really cool"bowling parties".
We so understand your frustration and sadness
but to act like the rancid elephant is not in the room is as wrong as what others are doing.
Please don't feel like what you have to say is not important!!
That is why that brilliant person in MN stays in her parents basement day in and day out.....
to give us a forum to speak out against the sin at BBC.
You are not alone......and concernedsbcer and piglet are really nice!!:)
Feeling Blue
Are you attending church anywhere?
A support system has really helped me through this.
It has helped, too, to realize that God never changes or fails us even though the mere mortals we trust here on this earth are bound to because of the dreaded sin nature.
I'm getting rid of the pedestool permanently - because nobody needs to be on it - and it's not big enough for God so it's useless.
It reminds me of the age when I realized my parents were not perfect, only worse.
I understand that you are "feeling blue"...I had some really bad days there for a while.......:(
Piglet,
I am having one now!
Gmommy
Email anytime!
feeling,
I just sent a very frustrated email to a few of these truthseekers...only a itty bitty part jumped out into my post. :0 (how do I make a sad face?????)
Email Nass....get connected!
(that was almost a commercial)
Sad faces I can do :(
It's the mad face I want and can't figure out. Suppose I could just stick my tongue out at people :P but that seems a bit childish...
gmommy said...
I thought 25+ had deserted us!
6:08 PM, June 25, 2007
Response: Not at all. I keep up. Was on vacation for a while. But I do post less often.
I hope that those who blog regularly will remember to show love to those who do not agree with them in the way they respond to them. Occasionally I am grieved by the things I read here on both sides. My last post was not that long ago...
Repost:
25+yrs@BBC said...
To: "Why" and others who don't seem to get it or who simply want to put some kind of spin on it.
Bellevue will never be the same again.
I believe that almost everyone who posts here knows that by now.
Bellevue has not lost the back row Baptists... it has lost much of the Sunday night/Wednesday night, deeply-committed, working, singing, volunteering, core membership.
You may be quick to say that it needed to change, etc. That is not the issue. Disagreements about music... not the issue, just a symptom. Integrity... exactly the issue.
It is dying a progressively faster death at the hands of leadership that refuse to be accountable to the whole congregation... and at the hands of an under-shepherd that appears to have put his own best interests before those of the flock of the Chief Shepherd.
You write about sin. You seem to be able to spot it on this blog in spite of the enormous log in your own eye.
The refusal to "provide things honestly in the sight of all men" has destroyed the trust of thousands of Bellevue members and former members. Bellevue has become a shell of what it once was.
Restoring the level of trust that once existed--within the congregation, surrounding community, the SBC and beyond--will take real, God-sent revival, new staff and lay leadership, scriptural adherence, transparency, love for all of the flock, direct communication between pastor and membership, careful stewardship, and many, many years of consistency.
jmo.
2:30 PM, June 16, 2007
Piglet,
LOL!
feelingblue,
I'm sorry you are so torn up inside over all that has gone on. I too wish this blog wasn't started, but at the same time, the blog has been a bigger blessing to some than Bellevue has in the last two years. Please stay and hang out with us. Your more than welcome here :). If not for the discussion, just for the fellowship. :).
25+,
Hope the vacation was relaxing!
(I went on one 4 years ago!!!)
When my frustration was at it's peak from Jon's posts that just make NO sense to me,
and I felt like our resident theologians were being worn out,
I was wondering where you were!
I am going to say this and I hate I THINK it so please remember we are blog friends....
I am sick to my stomach at the lack of scriptural BELIEF, much less understanding, from ministers and leaders within our Baptist faith.
Women ...especially unmarried women...are seen and treated as tea and cookie servers to these men who don't obey scripture much less have the courage to STAND for God's word!
25+,
I have never been into any worldly mind sets about women being over men.
I am just sick of what I am seeing in all this!
If I make you angry...please forgive me and give me grace.
I don't know how to think thru this.
It is such a Baptist banner (the Mother's Day sermon was an excellent example)
but yet many men in leadership are behaving like "flower children" (peace and love)
or Bullies!!!
I would rather be taught by Lin than by Jon.(JMO) I can get that emo ,new age, be nice, hollywood junk from TV.
What has happened in the church?! Why don't men have the Biblical strength and courage that leaders must have???
I know it is sin...but something is wrong in the Biblical training...why have the Baptists sold out????
(bet you wish you were still fishing:)
Nass..delete if you must
(for the thinking men of courage) (out there....pass over!)
New BBC Open Forum said...
jon wrote:
"Two wrongs do not a right make."
So because you pronounce it wrong for us to "blog" as a way of bringing the issues to light, that makes it so?
3:08 PM, June 25, 2007
The wrong is not the blog but the direct attacks on another person instead of the problem. Not all do this but many do. The anti-SG stuff ought to be deleted. Hate the sin, not the sinner. You fight not against flesh and blood... .
The only time I have recommended to stop blogging is when the posts are not filled with grace.
jon,
I begin with an apology since that is what you think is required from the Sr Pastor to make things right....
I apologize.
So now you think you can dictate what the blog admin. should delete???
Is that because YOU are the spiritural leader over this blog also?
I guess being a minister gives you authority over all of us???
I realize that I am angry and that offends your tolerance and grace theology.
I am offended that you lack a true love and understanding of God's word but yet you lord it over others.
People will surely stumble because you hide behind the scriptures of your choosing instead of charging forward to defend it.
Why are you here???
You worldly slant on Biblical truth is baby formula.
Can you disprove the posts of Lin, allofgrace, or 25+????
I apologize that your weakness in the faith makes me ill....yes,I am sick that sons of mine have men like you to learn from.
Galatians 3: 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[f] nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
You wome.......err...brothe....err....offspring sure do have a knack for communication! Preach on there sist....err....brothe....errr Priscilla Lin....:)
Jon,
I'm probably repeating this for the umpteenth time, but instead of doing nothing but criticizing us, how about putting some substance into your take. For example, instead of calling us out on our comments and posting on the blog, how about telling us what you think we should do since the leadership at BBC has refused to allow issues to be addressed? And yes, Matthew 18 was tried...long before this blog came. We have a dictator in power who either doesn't understand the damage his sin is doing or does understand and just doesn't care, just like he doesn't care about how many children he put in danger.
Gmommy,
I think that your brush is too broad. It sounds like you are angry at P. Patterson (as many others are as well).
You wrote:
“I am sick to my stomach at the lack of scriptural BELIEF, much less understanding, from ministers and leaders within our Baptist faith.”
While I agree that many Baptist ministers have not treated their sisters in Christ with the respect due or fully appreciated the enormous, untapped reserve of their gifts from God--I believe that that is much too broad a brush.
I agree that we have seen some new lows in our experience at BBC. But you are using a broad stroke when you speak of tens of thousands of pastors that you do not know.
First of all, those ministers serve Christ and are responsible to Him. Few who write on this blog know more than a handful of ministers personally.
How many who post here have been in the hospital room of a dying relative more than a handful of times? Many ministers are there for the last breath and heartbeat more times than they can count. Ministers ARE affected by the death of their sheep.
Count your experiences with death of a loved one or grave sickness of a loved one… Now understand that the experience of a minister includes that times the number in his congregation that he serves.
How many babies have those who blog here had to bury? How many funerals have any who post here had charge of and had to be a source of strength and encouragement while those around were sobbing?
How many who blog here have lived a similar life of sacrifice and self-denial to remain qualified to serve the Lord in such a position and spent many years in costly preparation for service?
How many times have those who post here had to try to serve as peace-maker when things at church were coming apart at the seams? How many have had their wives belittled and even had their children become public spectacle?
Ministers are under-shepherds. When a brother under-shepherd does not treat his flock with love, sins in a way that is disqualifying, and bars his flock from meeting: 1) other under-shepherds who become aware of it should tell the Chief Shepherd (pray); 2) they should rebuke the fallen shepherd; 3) they should comfort the sheep who are straying, for they belong to One Shepherd ultimately. But they do not have authority over the fallen under-shepherd. There is only so much that they can do.
The events at Bellevue have, sadly, embittered several here against ministers. Walk a mile in their shoes first. Those who serve well are to “receive a crown of glory” and do not deserve ridicule from God’s family.
Baptists have not "sold out." Your negative experience with some of them has colored your view of all.
I apologize that I played into Jon's game.
Notice he addresses Nass and not Lin.....25+?????
He does not give a flip about how we look to the world.
He is a SG's pawn.
I am signing out.....I have used all my testosterone for the day.
jon estes,
You talk a lot about grace. You accuse many here for a lack thereof. Maybe we need to hear your definition of grace. Maybe that's the problem here.
As for me, I don't think grace must be soft and mushy. I think great grace was shown when Jesus called the Pharisees 'white washed tombs, full of dead men's bones', when He flipped tables at the temple, I think He also showed grace when He called His friend Peter 'Satan'.
Jesus called it to their attention that sin had been commmitted and repentence is required for such. I think it great grace that He hung mutilated and suffering, and dying an excruciating death for me.
Isn't that grace? And it wasn't very soft, or kind, or pretty, was it?
Wait a minute, it just occurred to me. Maybe it's not a so much a difference of definition, but that you feel the need to define it for others and force it them, even though you haven't walked in their shoes.
Just a thought.
OC, thanks for making the point I tried to make to Jon the other day more clear. I'm not that good on words, but you stated my comment about Grace and Jesus in the temple better than I ever could :).
25+,
I have gotten sick to death of the pathetic comments from Jon
(a minister from another city that has spent alot of time recently deflecting from the corruption of the BBC leadership)
and of course,the bullies at BBC.....
the disrespect Page Patterson showed to the professor fit in to the glaring issues that Jon continues to bring to this blog.
I just can't believe his silly (ok,I really mean stupid)
response to del earlier.
I have the utmost respect for many men and ministers but jon has been cutting on my last nerve with his pick and choose version of the Bible.
I apologize (sincerely) for what came off as my broad stroke.
I should have just been as blunt as my thoughts and then it would have narrowed my stroke.
If I didn't respect you as a man with courage to stand for scriptural integrity,
I would not have addressed the post to you.
I AM sick of ministers using worldly tolerance instead of Godly fear ...as I see Jon bringing to our blog.
'Watching', if Nass sees you, you're 'history'. (pun intended).
Post a Comment