"For the love of money is the root of all evil." (1 Tim. 6:10a) Ergo... follow the money.
Wednesday, May 30, 2007
Spending God's Money
From the FBC Jacksonville blog come these reviews of the book Spending God's Money - Extravagance and Misuse in the Name of Ministry by Mary Kinney Branson.
Thanks for this thread. I went and posted comments concerning the situation at BBC - not following bylaws, closing the books, shutting down business meetings.
This is the greatest commandment. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind.The second is like it.You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I believe somewhere in this mess we have all lost sight of these two. I love you all! Peace be with you.
This is the greatest commandment. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind.The second is like it.You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I believe somewhere in this mess we have all lost sight of these two. I love you all! Peace be with you.
Piglet says:
I agree. The lust for power and money have taken over our church and the membership has been manipulated - and if they refuse to be manipulated, they are trampled or run off.
Putting God and others first would DEFINITELY solve this whole thing. Please call the pastor's office.
YEY! I got my comment posted on the other blog so I copied it here:
anonymous said
I have to say I don't disagree with anything you've said. But what concrete actions are you suggesting a member of a FBC Jax or Belleview or Dallas take? What are they doing now that they shouldn't, or what are they not doing that they should?
Piglet says:
I think a good start would be to obey their own bylaws. Bellevue Baptist Church, of which I am a member, has bylaws that imply monthly business meetings.
We recently had a YEARLY meeting that was shut down after 45 minutes when the motions the leadership wanted were passed and other motions they didn't want heard were making it to the floor (one to adopt the SBC policy for sexual purity of ministers, and another to adopt QUARTERLY business meetings).
We have started a petition for another BUSINESS MEETING and were only able to gather less than 500 signatures.
We also cannot see our own financials. BBC has recently broken the law by refusing to open the books when requested by our members. Thousands of dollars are needed to pursue this in court but they know we don't have it....
So here we have a leadership disobeying their own bylaws and the majority of members don't know or care. The minority who DO want accountablilty are trampled and are leaving.
The problem is a misuse of POWER and MONEY and Chrstians who DON'T CARE.
Steve Gaines is waiting for all those who care to leave so he can fill his pockets with the money of those left. Trouble is, there may not be enough who don't care left to pay the light bill, much less his half-million dollar a year salary package....
It amazes me that regular folks don't see a GLARING admission of guilt when a church refuses to open the books to it's own members and does not wnat to have business meetings.
Gee, people, if you walk in your child's room and they immediately hide something behind their backs, don't you know they are hiding something a make them show you what it is?
These are adult CHRISTIAN LEADERS who are doing this very thing and the masses are gullible enough to let it go? Don't you people know they are laughing at you?
I read this book a couple of weeks ago. Sort of made me angry & sad. I hope the new president of NAMB will be different. From what I read about him, it will be.
"I read this book a couple of weeks ago. Sort of made me angry & sad. I hope the new president of NAMB will be different. From what I read about him, it will be. "
Preacherdude, you have more faith in man than I do.
Question: Why should churches send money to Atlanta to be distributed around the US? This is very different than what the IMB does. The National is for church plants and missionaires in the US. This sort of reminds me of sending my money to Washington for retirement!
If you read the book, you know that 126 million dollars to the NAMB was to fund missions in the US. In the book, she was able to mention 5000 such souls. But we know that most was spent on high salaries, travel and lots of promotion of chachtkes such as bracelets, mugs, etc.
I believe the book because I saw the exact same type of things at my former mega. These large organizations are instinctively wasteful and ineffective because there is no 'real' accountability.
How much does it cost to preach the Word in the US?
Piglet, Your posts are so right on target! Thanks for expressing concisely and with clarity what others of us think but have difficulty putting into words. And your retorts are "gotcha's" without being hurtful. :-)
Piglet - thanks for your post on my blog. You are welcome anytime. A question for bloggers on this site, did Steve Gaines put his wife on staff and give her a separate salary in addition to what he already makes? Did he hire any of his children full-time and give them a salary and benefits? Does he promote Holy Land trips that he is the "host" of? What about his book deals and preaching circuit? Does he accept thousands to preach elsewhere while the church pays thousands to fill the pulpit while he is gone? If so, would you feel that maybe he is over stepping and taking advantage of God's loving and generous people? Even if his salary was in the millions, it would not be as big a deal as if he also paid his wife and son as full time staff members who answer to no one and have no responsibilities. I can't believe those who have information stand quietly by and watch this happen.
NASS - were you all aware that Rodney Brooks, the long-time minister of music at FBC Jax, has resigned and will be moving on to Charles Stanley's church in Atlanta? Some say due to not getting along with the "leadership" other than the pastor.
"A question for bloggers on this site, did Steve Gaines put his wife on staff and give her a separate salary in addition to what he already makes? Did he hire any of his children full-time and give them a salary and benefits?"
How could anyone know if Donna Gaines is on the payroll or not? The books are closed to only but a few.
I really do not think this is whether your church is worse than BBC. This is about the arrogance of false teachers who are fleecing the sheep for personal gain. In high salaries, books royalties, speaking engagements, hiring family, etc.
Friend, it is happening all over Christendom. Ministry is the new path to celebrity and wealth. Many of these pastors and 'administrators' are in the top 10% of income earners in the US.
Just go browse the 990's of some very well known para church organizations run by pastors we all hear on the radio. You will see salaries of the wife and kids on there, too.
John Hagee was smart. He put his para church organization under his church umbrella to hide his 1 million dollar salary (income from the TV show) and the salaries of his wife and kids. See, as a church...you don't have to report it on a 990 for the world to see.
There is a chart of some of them on my blog but what is curious about the 990's is they do not include speaking fees or book royalties...keep that in mind.
It sickens me and deeply hurts my heart to know of all the Godly folks that gave selfishly to purchase the property on Appling and to in addition, gave to the building fund, when they stuggled and went without. And now, the end result is to pay King Steve an enormous salary so he can live like a king in a city whose housing cost is far lower than Gardendale and the surrounding areas in B'ham. The only positive is that for many years the blessings of BBC poured out. Hopefully those precious ones who gave so generously when they did not have the means to do so will not feel robbed in the end.
Lin said... "A question for bloggers on this site, did Steve Gaines put his wife on staff and give her a separate salary in addition to what he already makes? Did he hire any of his children full-time and give them a salary and benefits?"
How could anyone know if Donna Gaines is on the payroll or not? The books are closed to only but a few.
FWIW
Bellevue Baptist Church Budget 2007-08 Frequently Asked Questions
Updated March 23, 2007
Is Donna Gaines paid a salary of any kind? What is being spent by BBC to assist Mrs. Gaines in the establishment of her new ministry? How much is being or has been spent to video her lessons?
Donna Gaines does not receive a salary of any kind from Bellevue Baptist Church. The recording of her Bible study for distribution is an excellent ministry outreach of the church. Donna does not receive any compensation. We look at that as a missions outreach just as we would our television broadcast or a missions project, etc.
I checked out the JAX blog site and was disturbed by what I read. They seem to be facing similar problems as we at Bellevue - and also posts from First Bapt. Dallas expressed almost carbon copy problems. I am beginning to see that many SB churches are in trouble. The enemy is at work and winning some battles but in the end God wins the war! "And the devil that DECEIVED them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night, forever and ever" (Rev.20:10). As Dr. Rogers always said: "Folks, it's getting GLORIOUSLY dark." :-)
blt, Our peace is the fact that it is God's money and it is sacred. It was given to the Lord, not Bellevue Baptist church and therefore how it is spent or squandered is His responsibility. I would NOT want to answer to Him for spending sacred dollars on foolishness, arrogant living and selfish lusts.
alphasenior, Just because the leadership puts out a statement saying they are not paying Donna Gaines a salary does not make it so. If ALL the truth were known and the books were open to view, we would all be surprised at how much the Gaines' are dipping into the till.
32+: I have been concerned at the direction of the SBC and have been rebuked by some for that. The fact of the matter is that just like BBC has been hijacked, the SBC has been as well. It is apparent that other churches are reaping thoe same sour fruits. We must pray harder and watch the skies...it is getting gloriously dark.....
I am going to post this information again. Faith Baptist Church in Bartlett has updated their website. They have included a "Faith Prayer Walk" with prayer stations. Ima was kind enough to give me a link to information about prayer stations. This is Emergent Church 'stuff'.
Why, Why don't you speak the truth? Why did the elders refuse to address the credit card issue quietly for 9 months? Why did the elders eventually make the statement "here is everything" when it wasn't everything? Why did the elders not show the deacons everything? Why didn't the elders tell the deacon body on the front end that Steve had more than one credit card? Why didn't the elders tell the deacon body on the front end about the charges Steve Gaines direct billed to the church, i.e. Colonial Country Club and Donna's birthday party at the Hilton? Why do the elders refuse to allow an independant audit of the check registry of Bellevue? Why, that's ok if you don't answer the questions. We already have a good idea of what the outcome would be. Why are you afraid of 100% transparency?
Churchmouse, I'm reposting my reply from the last thread:
Churchmouse said... Does it remind you of SG and the "prayer walks" that began at Bellevue under Paul Williams? This is on Faith Baptist's updated website.
Reply:
Churchmouse, I went to Faith’s website to read this and I’m totally heartsick. I’ve visited Faith several times and I was planning to visit again this Sunday. But now I don’t know. I’ll go back to the website tomorrow when I’m not so tired and read the entire thing and then decide.
Oh, I am SO glad to see you! Have missed your input here.
Would like your opinion on "Spending God's Money" by Mary K. Branson. I haven't read it yet, but plan to. I am just so happy to see the evil being revealed.
why said... Bin: what is " The Gathering" to speak of?
9:15 AM, May 31, 2007
My bad. It's "The Journey" not "The Gathering". Click the link to read the whole thing. I guess my questions revolve around who is buying the beer and who is drinking it and how much of it, etc. I have no issues with going to where the people are. Becoming like them in an effort to appeal to them seems a slippery slope. Serving alcohol to them, well I've got problmes with that. Need more info but at first glance I've got questions.
I gove these guys credit for one thing... they started their own church and didn't go in and "transition" an already existing church.
excerpt: Theology at the Bottleworks is run by a wildly successful congregation of young St. Louisans called The Journey.
Every month, dozens show up at the brewpub to drink beer and talk about issues ranging from racism in St. Louis to modern-art controversies to the debate about embryonic stem cell research. First-timers are invited to check out the church on Sunday, and Journey leaders say many have. Theology at the Bottleworks is just one of The Journey’s ministries, but it has helped the church grow from 30 members in late 2002 to 1,300 today. ... The Journey defines itself as an interdenominational church, but it has a working relationship with the Missouri Baptist Convention. That confederation of Baptist churches is the state arm of the largest Protestant denomination in the country, the theologically and socially conservative Southern Baptist Convention.
In 2005, The Journey borrowed $200,000 from the Baptist organization to help buy and renovate a former Catholic church in St. Louis. In December, Baptist leaders began questioning the church’s methods of attracting worshippers, specifically its use of alcohol.
After reading about the prayer station I remembered I was once at a children's teacher conference where they had set up something like this with stations. You were supposed to go to each station where there was a table and meditate, wash your hands, hold seashells or sign a book or something. At the time I thought it was mostly stupid and a waste of time since that type of stuff is just not my cup of tea.
It felt like they were trying to coerce me into some faux emotional experience or something.
I always wondered about "prayer walks" also. Are prayers more efficacious if you are walking and praying at a certain location in lieu of going to your closet to pray? If so why not prayer jogging since you can cover more ground.
bin wonderin x2 said... I always wondered about "prayer walks" also. Are prayers more efficacious if you are walking and praying at a certain location in lieu of going to your closet to pray? If so why not prayer jogging since you can cover more ground.
Reply: Good point! The possibilities there are unlimited. =)
Regarding financial records, you spead LIES about the credit card deal and they OPENED the records and that did not stop you. The Deacons and plenty of others saw every single credit card receipt. They do no good trying to please a group like you. There is NO pleasing you. Put your money where your mouth is and if the hate that you spew on here is yourtrue thoughts, MOVE on and leave Bellevue alone.
Piglet says:
SO have you expressed your concern to Mr. Coombs that the records should be surrenedered as the LAW states and we can put all these "rumors and lies" to rest?
Before you begin to lump everything you don't understand as a part of the emerging church you should actually understand what is meant by the term. I would suggest you read D.A. Carson's helpful book "Becoming Conversant with the Emerging Church." The emerging church is far more than form. It embraces a relativistic philosophy that is counter to Scripture.
Second, prayer walking is not a practice of the emerging church. The history of prayer walking goes all the way back to the Old Testament worship of Israel. In fact, David's dancing before the Lord in 2 Samuel would have involved walking and praising God. Clearly God was pleased with David's "prayer walk" because 2 Samuel 6:23 indicates Michal, David's wife who criticized him, was stricken with barrenness for her sin.
Third, I am the pastor of Bartlett Baptist Church and can tell you exactly what our prayer walk will involve. Sunday night our church members will go from room to room praying for the teachers and children who will be in those rooms this coming week during Vacation Bible School. There will be no lit candles, no washing our hands, no holding seashells, just God's people on their knees praying that God will use teachers to communicate His truth. God's children will be praying by name for children who have pre-registered for VBS. We will be praying for the dads and moms who will be bringing our children.
If you are not comfortable moving from one classroom to another to pray for the people who will occupy those rooms in VBS next week, I ask you to pray for our church in the privacy of your prayer closet. I would also kindly ask you to stop implying our prayer walk is ungodly and "emerging" without first asking someone who knows what will be involved. We are trying to win the lost of our community without compromising on biblical standards. Our church is far from emerging, I completely disagree with the philosophy behind the emerging church, and we embrace the Word of God as the true center of Christian union, and the supreme standard by which all human conduct, creeds, and religious opinions should be tried.
priestmichael, Thank you for posting. We are displaced members of BBC looking for a church with like-minded people with whom to worship. I was the one who posted that you had a prayer walk on your activities calendar. Prayer walks began at BBC at the time that our new pastor arrived. I believe this is correct. One of the first things he did was assign members of the orchestra to arrive early enough to kneel at each seat in that 7,000 seat auditorium and pray for the person who would sit in that seat. Now, you see what has happened to BBC. Did the act of praying over each seat impact us in a positive manner? I would have to tell you "no, it did not." It was an indication of our church's new direction. I am glad that you are not emergent in your teaching. I hope you don't include Warren's step classes, either. If you are neither emergent or purpose driven, surely you will have compassion for us and not anger.
The "emerging church" has been difficult to define...there's a broad spectrum of thought and practice within its ranks...which makes it hard to pin down. Each doctrine or practice of any church has to be looked at on it's individual merit, or lack thereof. As for prayer walks...personally I can see no Biblical precedent for praying in this manner...I'm not sure there's anything inherently wrong with it, but for me personally, I think it's wise to avoid doing what scripture does not prescribe. I see nothing in scripture which would make praying in such a manner any more effectual than praying while sitting at a desk, kneeling beside one's bed, etc. I'm also not real sure about praying over objects or places...or what value that would have. The Pharisees were rebuked for praying on the street corners to be see of men, and for vain repetitions. This much I'm sure of, God is not contained in a place, and salvation is of the LORD and in Christ, not a place. Perhaps those facts should be our guide.
priestmichael, If you would, can you please give me the scriptural references for prayer walking?
We are neither emergent nor are we "Purpose-Driven" in the sense of following Rick Warren's process of doing church. I would warn, however, the term purpose driven has not always, nor is it now exclusively associated with Saddleback Church or Rick Warren. Dr. Rogers was a close friend and mentor and he told me Bellevue was purpose driven when he was pastor. By purpose driven he meant Bellevue knew its biblical purpose (Magnifying Jesus through worship and the Word. Moving believers in Jesus toward maturity and ministry, and Making Jesus known to our neighbors and the nations.)and was intent on a accomplishing it. We are purpose driven (as opposed to Purpose-Driven with a capital P). We believe God has created our church to magnify Him by loving Him and showing His love to a lost world. To that end we strive.
Obviously, I do not know all that is happening at Bellevue so my statements are neither an indictment nor endorsement of the present leadership. I have not had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Gaines and I have never heard him express his philosophy of ministry. Therefore, I am not qualified to speak about Bellevue. I can speak, however, about Bartlett. We are committed to never compromise the Word of God for the sake of growing a church. We have recently practiced church discipline. Obviously, that kind of church practice is not popular in our culture, but it is biblical. The Word was, is, and will be sufficient because it is God's Word about The Word!
I pray regularly for Bellevue, its staff, membership, and those who have felt disenfranchised.
"Lindon - thanks. How do I go about getting such a chart for the Jacksonville area pastors? "
If they have para church organizations, the 990's are public information because they are considered non profits. You can search for them on Charity Navigators or on Foundation:
The 990 lists all the revenue, expenses, senior management, board members and their salaries.
Churches do not fall under this legal oversight. The church authorities must be willing to make it public. I expect to see more and more para church organizations move to the church umbrella to escape scrutiny. It is just too easy for us to get the information off the internet anymore.
If you are not comfortable moving from one classroom to another to pray for the people who will occupy those rooms in VBS next week, I ask you to pray for our church in the privacy of your prayer closet. I would also kindly ask you to stop implying our prayer walk is ungodly and "emerging" without first asking someone who knows what will be involved.
Thanks Michael in Bartlett for your comments and your invitation to pray. I will do that. Sometimes it is as though you are less “committed” if you do not show up for these things so I am glad to see you don’t look down on people that prefer the closet. It is disconcerting to have others look down on you because you don’t feel comfortable praying exactly when and where and how they demand that you do and then fake an emotional experience as a result. I hope that makes sense.
I appreciate your description of exactly what and when you will do at your session for VBS. Asking people to pray for VBS either on site or at home certainly seems like a good thing to me. Didn’t mean to infer you were doing anything wrong if in fact your comments were directed at me.
"I would suggest you read D.A. Carson's helpful book "Becoming Conversant with the Emerging Church." The emerging church is far more than form."
Excellent book! I highly recommend it to those who are trying to figure out 'Emergent' whatever it is. Even the Emergents have not figured it out. They are STILL having a 'conversation' about it, though. :o)
Thanks for posting, Priestmichael...not all 'prayer walking' is tainted but it can be too much 'show' and 'works' if not handled properly.
Personally, I like prayer 'driving'. I am alone...closing the eyes is not optional, though. :o)
Thank you for your words about Dr. Rogers. You must know we loved him and we wanted to love Dr. Gaines as well. If you've been follwing this blog, you should understand that all that is happening at BBC is not all Dr. Gaines fault - we have lay leadership and ministers that are enforcing an agenda that we don't agree with.
As far as "purpose driven", you'll have to excuse some of us (ME!) if we are overly sensitive to the term being used. Rick Warren has made that phrase highly volitle based on his "ministry". Same way the word "gay" is now exclusively used as a homosexual term, it means happy, but is no longer used as such.
I've got many friends who have attended Bartlett Baptist over the years and really enjoy it. My husband and I will probably join you for worship soon as we endeavor to find a new church family. As far as "prayer walking", I've spoken to and emailed back and forth with Dr. Sinquefeld (I always spell it wrong!) at Faith Baptist. He has assured me time and time again that Faith Baptist is a church that wants to fulfull the Great Commission and are in no way affiliated with the "purpose driven/emerging church" movement. I, at the moment, am apt to believe what he says, but as they say "proof is in the pudding".
I think we as Christians should always be on guard for things that "check our Spirit". I believe that's why God gave us that ability in the first place.
At this time of upheaval, some of us on more on guard (overly sensitive) than others. I'm not talking about churchmouse in this instance though - her spiritual discernment is more accute than mine and I totally trust her judgement.
priestmichael, Thank you for telling us about your prayer walk. I think our discussion has been helpful. I might add, it is often not fruitful to ask a church about their programs. Until very recently, our pastor and the leadership at Bellevue has denied being Purpose Driven, despite requiring S.T.E.P. classes for membership and having followed Rick Warren's transitioning process to the letter. Now, they admit they have been Purpose Driven all along.
My physical therapist and I were talking about prayer the other day and we discovered we do a lot of "prayer showering" (that may be TMI, but oh well, consider the source!). She said the only quite time she has is in the shower and so she prays then.
I shared that I was healed of a pinched nerve in the shower - isn't just like God to heal me where I'd have to say in a testimony or such "there I was washing my hair and God said, 'Karen, I'm not giving you anymore than you can handle' and my nerve was healed". You'd have to know me in person to actually see the irony.
For the record, when I had my car accident I did injure my C-6 & 7 nerve. The one that God healed for me in the shower is C-5 and that's perfectly healthy! YAY GOD! :)
You're right about not asking a church about their programs - remember when we were a member of Willow Grove (whatever it's called) for a millisecond, then they recinded the membership because people got in a twist about it?
I know I shouldn't so this, but I'm going to anyway:
WHY: When Steve Gaines paid back the 2 direct bills (Colonial Country Club and the Hilton birthday weekend for Donna) to the church, did he pay back the whole amount or just the direct billed amount? Because BBC is a non-profit, when they get direct billed, the bill is TAX FREE. Did Steve Gaines pay back the TAX FREE amount or the whole amount-TAX INCLUDED? If you say yes, show us the proof. If you say no, THAT IS CO-MINGLIING OF FUNDS AND ILLEGAL. Pleas answer the question.
I am not a member of Bellevue Baptist as most on this blog know. I am a victim of the Purpose Driven Movement and continue study it's effects on those exposed to it...as well as the Emergent, Emerging, New Age Movements, etcetera. My pupose is to grow and learen as God would deem me to do so. A watchman, as it were.
If you will indulge me, I do have a couple of questions that I beg to ask you. Reading your posts puts me in this position of confusion. In asking, please know that I do this with the greatest respect for you.
Knowing, myself, a lot of the terminology that the emergents use...would you not expect some confusion from the Christian community as to why you would use the terms, "prayer walk" or "prayer stations"? A prayer walk is a labyrinth and goes back to eastern mysticism, early Roman Catholicism. Prayer stations also go back to that era. With a rush to the Ecumenical Movements we see today, this would prove to be totally confusion. I am also perplexed as to why you would use the wording for you username, "Priest Michael" instead of perhaps "Bro. Michael" or "Rev. Michael". Forgive me, but this sends up red flags.
I haven't personally looked at your website, but will. Please know that I appreciate very much your willingness to share with people like myself and those on this blog. May God bless you is my prayer.
I, too, look forward to your response to All in Grace's question, "priestmichael, If you would, can you please give me the scriptural references for prayer walking?"
Right, they want to get to a certain point in the transition before people realize what is goiing on.
I hope people are calling churches and talking with pastors. It seems that Lifeway is the source of a lot of this Purpose Driven/ Emergent material. Some pastors or church leaders may be using that material and not realizing where they are going. Is that possible?
mouse said, "Some pastors or church leaders may be using that material and not realizing where they are going. Is that possible?"
Comment: Mouse, I have given much thought to this. I always come up with if they are ground in the Word, in Truth, they would not buy it...they would recognize it and rebuke it. Either that, or the 'peer pressure' from their SBC buddies mean more to them than Scripture does. Who are we and we understand the mess? Surely they would recognize good material from bad material?
"Thank you Ima, for educating us about Lifeway."
Reply: We are nothing more than instruments of our Father! I would plead with everybody, however, to boycott Lifeway! If nobody buys this mess, they will straighten up...maybe.
I have a website I am going to post shortly. It is from Bud Press and will help you out in knowing what to look for in Lifeway so that you will all be certain that they are practicing heresy.
Churchmouse said... "The pastor of Bartlett Baptist Church is Michael Priest. Sorry, pastor, that we didn't pick up on that."
Comment: Talk about feeling that the cat who swallowed the mouse! I would have done well to have looked at the website.:)
To Bro. Michael Priest! Forgive me for this blunder. I'll bet this isn't the first time this has happened to you? :) I am truly sorry and beg your forgiveness.
There is no verse that says "thou shalt prayer walk" just at there is no verse that says "thou shalt pray in private." Jesus' teaching to go into your prayer closet and pray in private was not a prohibition against public prayer. It was a prohibition of self-serving, hypocritical prayer. If it was prohibition against public prayer then we better stop praying at church on Sunday :). I understand the concern.
There is no scriptural command, but there is a scriptural principle. Prayer is talking to God. Enoch walked with God. This implies more than simply being a godly man. As Dr. Rogers once preached, Enoch took a walk and was talking with God. Toward the end of the day God said to Enoch, "We are closer to my home than yours. Why don't you just come home with me." Now obvious the Bible does not record that conversation, but Dr. Rogers was making the point that Enoch had an intimate, ongoing fellowship with God.
A part of the worship of Israel in the Old Testament was dancing and priestly parades much like we read of in 2 Samuel 6 (I am not advocating we dance before the Lord. I can't dance and have no rhythm. Also, everyone knows that a dancing foot and a praying knee can't be found on the same leg!) Included in the parade was prayer. It was a time for the people to express to God their gratitude for His deliverance or provision.
Certainly the Bible shows us that God's people prayed on site. The New Testament illustrates that Jesus prayed on site wherever He was. Matthew 19, Mark 10, and Luke 18 tell us He was walking, was stopped to pray for children, touched them and blessed them. Our church prayer walks in the Binghampton area. We have a ministry in that part of town. Our prayer walk involves simply moving from house to house, interacting with the people and then praying with and for them as they express needs.
Luke 5:16 says "But Jesus Himself would often slip away to the wilderness and pray." The pattern of Jesus' life was to pray onsite with insite. Wherever He was He prayed. He did not limit His prayer to a specific place.
Maybe your concept of prayer walking is different from mine. Let me give you another example of how our church prayer walks. We sent a mission team to Guatemala this past fall. The team spent 5 days visiting villages that have had no Christian witness. Half of the team went ahead and prayer walked throught the villages. The other half of the team followed with the Gospel on tape in the language of the people. Jesus told the disciples (Mark 9:29)who tried unsuccessfully to cast out a demon, "This kind cannot come out by anything but prayer." Our prayer walking is always connected to ministry and evangelism. We do not prayer walk for the sake of prayer walking. We pray onsite for needs we are trying to meet or souls to whom we are witnessing.
Your point is well taken, God is not contained in a place, and salvation is of the LORD and in Christ, not a place. Perhaps those facts should be our guide. God is not limited to a prayer closet or the streets of Guatemala.
I am sure there are abuses to prayer walking. I suspect some pastors try to create an emotional response by manipulation or belittle people for not participating in a ministry of the church. We have people in our church who do not want or can't prayer walk. That is fine. We provide a prayer guide to inform them so they can pray specific rather than general prayers. If they are at home praying, great!
There are, however, abuses in preaching, singing, giving, missions, etc. We should never be critical of something simply because someone else has abused it.
PriestMichael, thank you for posting. With all due respect, I would like to ask you a couple of questions – nothing earth shattering, but I’m searching for validity.
Am I correct in assuming you refer to yourself as PRIEST Michael as in the priesthood of the believer? And, since you freely identified yourself as the pastor of Bartlett Baptist, why would you not use the title of Pastor, Brother, Dr., or your own name?
More importantly, upon re-reading the entire 6th chapter of 1st Samuel, I can find no mention whatever of David doing any type of prayer walk. He sang and danced and made music before the Lord, but nothing is said or even implied about David praying or walking.
Also, in that same Scripture, it appears to me that David’s wife was displeased because David disrobed and danced in front of the handmaidens; and thus, she was jealous, not of David dancing before God, but before the handmaidens. Also, I cannot find where Michal’s childlessness was a result of any sin. If this is not the correct interpretation, would you please enlighten me, sir, and provide scriptural reference?
I would also be most appreciative if you would provide the scriptural references for prayer walking.
Please understand I mean no disrespect to you. I am glad to have you posting here, but I am also looking for scriptural truth to be presented.
I will be happy to pray for your VBS. I prefer the “prayer closet,” on my knees alone with the Lord. After all, there is no time or distance in prayer.
Forgive my ignorance, but how do I make my profile public?
Ima,
No apology necessary. I once pastored in a strong Catholic community and my name was of great ministry benefit. Our church members would invite their Catholic friends to come hear their "priest." More than a few trusted Christ because my last name opened a door to share the Gospel. I hope my most recent post explains my understanding of prayer walking.
Yes, I understand that many in the emerging church movement, like Mormons, have stolen solid, Christian, biblical words and redefined them. That is my point. Instead of assuming a meaning, investigate how a person uses a word.
I can assure you that I am far from an emerging church pastor. If anyone is uncertain of the emerging philosophy simply read D.A. Carson's book and you will be informed and likely concerned.
I am also perplexed as to why you would use the wording for you username, "Priest Michael" instead of perhaps "Bro. Michael" or "Rev. Michael". Forgive me, but this sends up red flags.
Reply: I don't need to answer for Michael but I will say that I have known Dr. Priest for over 20 years. I went to college with him. He has the utmost integrity and Bartlett Baptist is not an emerging/PD church. I have attended there some. Don't be put off by his screen name "Priest Michael"...as pastor of Bartlett Baptist his name is easy to see, his name is Dr. Michael Priest.
I have also known Dr. Danny Sinquefield for over 30 years and the same can be said of him. He has utmost integrity too & Faith isn't a emergent/PD church either.
While these and other churches might use more modern methods of worship, we must be careful to look at the assume the the church has gone astray.
I know both Pastors would welcome any questions you might have about their theology, methods of ministry or whatever you want to know about their churches.
Personally,and I mean this sincerely, I could put myself and my family under either one of these men of Gods' leadership if God lead that way. Don't just take my word for it...check them out.
We went to college together? I am interested in your identity?
To all,
Sorry my name has caused such confusion. When I chose an email address (my email address is what is displayed through my Goggle account) I chose something easy to remember. The effects of aging demanded something simple!
Mary,
Uncover does not mean David was naked. Chapter 6, verse 14 makes it clear David was wearing an ephod. First Chronicles 15 further clarifies. Verse 27 says David wore fine line and an ephod. Verse 29 simply says Michal despised him when she saw him dancing. By comparing both passages, most scholars believe Michal despised David because of some jealousy related to her father, Saul.
So, what does uncovered in 2 Samuel mean? It means he was not wearing the kingly garments, but rather the garments of a priest.
So a prayer walk around a church or neighborhood (as I know Faith Baptist does on a regular basis) is an okay thing and labrinyth(SP?) walking or prayer walking that churchmouse refers to in her earlier post is "contemplative prayer" and is based on Eastern religions. Am I right?
Does anyone know if Bellevue or any other area churches indulge in "Christian Yoga"? Just wondering...
Michael....I will give you a hint...we borrowed my girlfriend's car & jumped the railroad tracks in BM. Ring a bell?
I always wondered when you and I jumped the tracks in her car, we always had a soft landing. I jumped the tracks with her and we had the worst possible landing and the muffler fell off. She wasn't very understanding....go figure.
In the previous thread, Churchmouse said... Speaking of discernment, I am looking at websites of different Baptist Churches in the area and have found them to be very telling. Do you see any red flag here?
Take the PrayerJourney of XXXXXX (Chruch Name)
The Prayer Journey Begins
Station One - Ask the Lord to Prepare Your Heart Station Two - Pray for Faith Station Three - Pray for the churches in our area Station Four - Pray for the Places of Employment Station Five - Pray for those within your sphere of influence Station Six - Pray for the Nation Station Seven - Pray for God's Glory and Renown to spread rapidly Station Eight - Be Still Station Nine - Pray for All the Nations of the World Station Ten - Lord, Let me be the answer
Ok, call me undiscerning, but I'm not seeing anything in the specific content of this that would be bad to pray for, or that conflicts with Scripture. Please fill me in on the red flags you see in this.
waiting for my tongue lashing - I mean answer - from you.
I have another question for you since you're here: Why can't I ask questions about the leadership at BBC without getting my head bit off all the time? You seem to be okay with everything Steve does, but yet you verbally attack anyone who DARES to question what he does? He went over a 41" tall fence with 3 other "seasoned" men and you're okay with that, but when Piglet states facts about credit cards and other issues, you want to throw her out of the church on her tail. How is that possible that you can be so blind to one, yet so HIGHLY VIGILANT to others?
Just remember Proverbs 15:1 - A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
"Reply: I don't need to answer for Michael but I will say that I have known Dr. Priest for over 20 years. I went to college with him. He has the utmost integrity and Bartlett Baptist is not an emerging/PD church. I have attended there some. Don't be put off by his screen name "Priest Michael"...as pastor of Bartlett Baptist his name is easy to see, his name is Dr. Michael Priest.”
Reply: Easy to see? I have never driven by Bartlett Baptist and most likely never will. I have asked Dr. Priest’s forgiveness and he has forgiven me for not understanding his name. I truly feel bad about that. I don’t know what else to say about it. I am truly sorry.
“I have also known Dr. Danny Sinquefield for over 30 years and the same can be said of him. He has utmost integrity too & Faith isn't a emergent/PD church either.”
Reply: I have never heard of Dr. Danny Sinquefield and have not mentioned the name of this blog. I am a little perplexed why you address this to me? It’s okay, but I think you might have gotten somebody else’s remarks mixed up with mine.
While these and other churches might use more modern methods of worship, we must be careful to look at the assume the the church has gone astray.
Reply: I certain don’t mean to insinuate that this church is astray. However, I do believe this church or any other church should avoid anything that would cause confusion…which might give cause to believe they might be even remotely using emerging methodology. I will say that and not offer apology for doing so. Anything which might mislead the public/community is not a good thing.
“I know both Pastors would welcome any questions you might have about their theology, methods of ministry or whatever you want to know about their churches.”
Reply: Yes I believe that too. Dr. Priest has responded to me and I appreciate that. He seems very open to any questions. I would not hesitate to ask him anything…and have. I also would not hesitate to visit his church. He seems very open to dialogue. In fact, I was just thinking earlier today when responding to his post how nice it would be if Steve Gaines would open dialogue on this blog with all of the bloggers.
“Personally, and I mean this sincerely, I could put myself and my family under either one of these men of Gods' leadership if God lead that way.”
Reply: Sounds like a great thing to do…why don’t you visit Bartlett Baptist yourself? That is, if you don’t pastor a church.
“Don't just take my word for it...check them out."
Reply: I have…
Then Pastordude added: “Here we go again...I post and then dead silence...silence of the lambs(sheep). Ho boy.”
Reply: Believe it or not Pastordude, I have not been sitting here trying to figure out what to say to your brilliant post. Actually my husband came in for lunch and I fixed a quick lunch for us. That took a while. I don’t just sit here at the computer all the time.
BTW, your username implies that you are a pastor? Is that true? If so what churches have you pastured? Have you even been on staff at Bellevue?
Based upon what was on the church website that churchmouse referenced, the fact that other relgions (Catholics, Lutherans) use Stations of the Cross as part of their worship. I'm not sure what purpose it would serve in the Baptist church except to expand the "worship experience" of people who come to the Baptist church from other religious backgrounds.
While in itself, a prayer walk isn't a bad thing, but it becomes a bad thing when churches start becoming like the world instead of being set apart from the world. People today are looking for spirituallity, but that doesn't necessarily mean a relationship with Jesus Christ. When this type of prayer is offered or even required by a church, it can't be a good thing. For baby Christians who see the words "prayer walk" and do not have the tools to discern what kind of activity it is, they can get wrapped in the contemplative/labrinyth prayer walks that are becoming prevalent.
Prayer walks that are walking around the neighborhood or around a particular church should be called something else as to not cause confusion, right? I know BBC has "watchmen on the wall" - isn't that sort of a prayer walk, but not a contemplative prayer issue?
“I have also known Dr. Danny Sinquefield for over 30 years and the same can be said of him. He has utmost integrity too & Faith isn't a emergent/PD church either.”
Reply: I have never heard of Dr. Danny Sinquefield and have not mentioned the name of this blog. I am a little perplexed why you address this to me? It’s okay, but I think you might have gotten somebody else’s remarks mixed up with mine.
IMA, I mentioned Dr. Sinquefield, churchmouse mentioned Faith Baptist. I think Preacherdude got confused; don't take it personally. As you can see now, lots of folks wondered about Dr. Priest's name then it became clear. No worries! :)
I didn’t mean to imply that David was naked, I knew he wore a linen ephod (II Samuel 6:14), but it was obvious that he was not wearing his usual or traditional garments. I just read 1st Chronicles 15 and it does clear up the matter of Michal’s jealousy (vs 29). Thanks for the scripture lesson! I do appreciate it. :-)
I understand and accept your explanation of prayer walking; however, I must question the use of the term “prayer stations.” I haven’t been to your church’s website and I don’t know if you use this term, but I did see it on Faith Baptist’s website.
As one who spent many years deeply and sincerely involved in Roman Catholicism before I was convicted of my sin, repented on my knees before God, and was saved by grace alone for the glory of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, I admit to being more than a little sensitive to terms that have been so long associated with Catholicism. And there seems to be a lot of that coming from the emerging movement, which has its roots in the Roman church’s ecumenical movement.
Thanks again for your reply. And welcome to our forum. Please continue to post here.
And to be clear, I prefer my “prayer closet” but I pray anywhere and anytime that I can. I’ve done some of my most serious praying right here at my keyboard as I’ve read the sad stories that have happened to my brothers and sisters in Christ.
The opponents of the Gospel stole words of the church and redefined them, but biblical writers never resisted using them. They simply informed the churches of the true meaning and kept right on going. If a church embraced a practice of the world I would agree with you. In this case, the world has embraced a word of the church. Why should the church give up a phrase that perfectly describes a God-honoring practice?
Your logic, followed to its end, leads to some difficult problems. On any given Sunday a person can turn on the television and watch someone "preach." The false teacher has absconded with a good, biblical word. Should true preachers of the one and only Gospel find another word to describe what they do each Sunday so as to cut down on confusion? Joel Osteen does not preach, but that is what he, and many others, call his weekly activity of oral self-image massaging. By the way, Joel Osteen is only one of many. My biblical conviction is that if a messenger is not delivering a message based upon a text of Scripture in its context and expressing the original intent of the Holy Spirit Who inspired the text then he is not preaching, but rather talking. Those false teachers are going to keep using the word "preach." Should we stop?
Ok, call me undiscerning, but I'm not seeing anything in the specific content of this that would be bad to pray for, or that conflicts with Scripture. Please fill me in on the red flags you see in this.
junk99,
It is not the specific content that is troubling, but the ritualistic process of it. It indicates the presence of Emergent Church theology. Did you look at the link?
Then Pastordude added: “Here we go again...I post and then dead silence...silence of the lambs(sheep). Ho boy.”
Reply: Believe it or not Pastordude, I have not been sitting here trying to figure out what to say to your brilliant post. Actually my husband came in for lunch and I fixed a quick lunch for us. That took a while. I don’t just sit here at the computer all the time.
MY REPLY: This was not directed at you resistor. It is just a joke that I put out there when it gets quiet.
Please forgive me if I hurt your feelings. I am sorry you took my comments wrong. I wasn't chastising you but just making a comment.
You tell to visit Bartlett myself...like I said in my post...I already have.
Please lighten up and don't take things so personal. googly moogly. Hope you and your husband had a good lunch.
Now knowing your background in Catholicism, I understand your concern about the word "station." The nature of our prayer walks really do not require a term like "station."
More important than the term used is the concept and practice advocated. I have never been on a prayer walk at Faith Baptist Church, but I would suspect that a "station" is nothing more than a designated spot with information concerning the specific item of prayer, i.e., if praying for government leaders, a list of names of those serving in government positions.
IMA, I mentioned Dr. Sinquefield, churchmouse mentioned Faith Baptist. I think Preacherdude got confused; don't take it personally. As you can see now, lots of folks wondered about Dr. Priest's name then it became clear. No worries! :)
Reply: Everyone knows I get confused because no one stays on the topic and & I skim read. I am also getting old so I make mistakes. Please forgive me for any problems my old age has caused.
You're right about not asking a church about their programs - remember when we were a member of Willow Grove (whatever it's called) for a millisecond, then they recinded the membership because people got in a twist about it?
karen ------------- Karen, according to ima, the Willowcreek Assoc. sometimes removes a church from their membership list that all have access to without actually removing the membership. This is to appease (deceive?) the church's membership that protest the membership.
I invite you to read this piece by Roger Oakland. Note the reference to 'prayer stations'. It would confound the wisest to have this advertised at a church and not think something was amiss.
Eastern religion, mysticism, Eastern mysticism, The early Roman Catholic church, Vintage Christianity, The Vintage Church, The Ecumenical Movement, The Ecumenical Church, Ecumenicism, should give rise to any Christian to questions. Don't apologize for being a Watchman. Everybody should be a watchman. The trend today as I see it is towards the Ecumenical Movement...back towards the early Roman Catholic Church. A oneness. (There is a movement today in Memphis and other cities towards just such a thing.) If I can find it I will post it.
Oral self-image massaging - that will get many screens sprayed today! That was hysterical! But very valid - it's true, why should we (as Christians) have to change the names of things because others have "bastardized" their meanings? Wonderful point.
Mary, my dad grew up Catholic so I'm right there with you on the "stations" verbiage. People are looking for spirtuality or doing something to make them "feel" something in their worship, so you're right to be sensitive to "stations" being used.
Preacher,
Googly Moogly? Right back at ya! Oh and since you took out a muffler on the Bartlett railroad tracks, I'll admit to bottoming out a 4 door Nova containing 8 goofy teenagers on "thrill hill". Can ya top that?
"Priest Michael is Michael Priest... Priest is his last name"
I don't care if he's Little Mary Sunshine (and no, I didn't know who he was), he still needed to make his profile visible -- which I see he's now done. Thank you, Mr. Priest, and welcome!
Googly Moogly? Right back at ya! Oh and since you took out a muffler on the Bartlett railroad tracks, I'll admit to bottoming out a 4 door Nova containing 8 goofy teenagers on "thrill hill". Can ya top that?
Reply: Well, this car was a 78 Datsun B210. I weighted a bit more than Michael did, still do-I have increased the distance between our weights by the way, so that little car could fly!
I did almost,and I mean almost, put my moms 78 Olsmobile into the Missisippi River. I made the stupid mistake of going on the cobblestones with ice on them. I slid all the way down to the river to the bottom 12 feet. It was dry there because the river was pounding that area, I guess. I prayed all the way down the bank and when the car hit the uniced cobblestones, it spun around and stopped...facing the river! I drove along the river until I got to a driveway where they were loading a barge. I was praising God for His protection.
How do you tell your mom that her car is in the river??? I almost had to make that call.
I don't care if he's Little Mary Sunshine (and no, I didn't know who he was), he still needed to make his profile visible -- which I see he's now done. Thank you, Mr. Priest, and welcome!
Hey, watch out with the Little Mary Sunshine comment. I am a Baptist pastor, not Methodist!
No, Ima, I don't. Besides, why were they so worried about saving the money for royalties? It is the only area I know of where saving money was an issue.
By the way, while I have enjoyed my time on the blog today, the only reason I came in the first place was because a pastor friend alerted me that the church I pastor was mentioned on this blog. My purpose was to clear up any misunderstanding.
I too have performed a mufflerectomy. In my case it was on a 73 Camaro and it was in fact a mufflerectomy performed on duel exhausts simultaneously. I must confess I let out an expletive when it happened.
The take away lesson is that you should always run for cover when you hear a red neck teenager utter the words “watch this”.
Michaeldadof4, Thank you for joining our discussion. We hope you come back. If you are what you say-- you are what we are looking for. I hope you come back and let us get to know you a little better. Trust is in short supply here. If you understand that, you won't be so badly offended by what you read here.
SOTL is on her way home and should check in with us late tonight. Sounds like the cruise was wonderful and a good time was had by all who were fortunate enough to get to go!
Sorry...apples and walnuts. However, at our home-church Wednesday evening prayer service last night, I had chicken salad with grapes and pecans. I love our home-church prayer services.
Every once in a while, I am privileged to hear/see a minister whom I think is truly blessed. In more recent times, there are three who come to mind, so I am more than blessed. One is Paul Washer and I hope you all have been blessed to watch his DVD on sermonaudio.com of the Shocking Youth Message. If you haven't, do yourself the honor. Or any of his other messages. The next of course is Jeff Noblit. You can also get some of his messages from sermonaudio, but most of his are available from http://www.fbcms.com. Now, to the last one I am going to mention. I just accidentally ran across this on sermonaudio.com and it is wonderful. I am talking about David Cloud and his message on DVD at sermon audio entitled Roman Catholicism, Past and Present. Do yourselves a favor and watch this
imaresistor said... I invite you to read this piece by Roger Oakland. Note the reference to 'prayer stations'. It would confound the wisest to have this advertised at a church and not think something was amiss.
Eastern religion, mysticism, Eastern mysticism, The early Roman Catholic church, Vintage Christianity, The Vintage Church, The Ecumenical Movement, The Ecumenical Church, Ecumenicism, should give rise to any Christian to questions. Don't apologize for being a Watchman. Everybody should be a watchman. The trend today as I see it is towards the Ecumenical Movement...back towards the early Roman Catholic Church. A oneness. (There is a movement today in Memphis and other cities towards just such a thing.) If I can find it I will post it.
Reply:
Ima, I’m currently working on a manuscript on the subject and I’ll be happy to discuss this with you at a later time if you wish. I have much to do right now and this is not a topic that can be easily digested on the run – which is the only way I’ve managed to be on the blog today. And you are correct about the Ecumenical Movement.
"Priest Michael is Michael Priest... Priest is his last name"
I don't care if he's Little Mary Sunshine (and no, I didn't know who he was), he still needed to make his profile visible -- which I see he's now done. Thank you, Mr. Priest, and welcome!
Reply:
NBBC... No need to be so edgy (sp).... I wasn't trying to be a smart alek with my response. I actually did a little research when he first posted. I wanted to see if maybe he was Little "Miss" Mary sunshine instead of coming out of the gate blasting like some did.
"Priest Michael is Michael Priest... Priest is his last name"
Whew! Thank YOU. And you have been most gracious about this name thing. You really ARE a 'Priest'. :o)
priestmichael wrote: "There are, however, abuses in preaching, singing, giving, missions, etc. We should never be critical of something simply because someone else has abused it."
It is good that people ask and you respond. Some of us have been through some very UnBiblical churches. So the questions or concerns may sound like criticism when in fact they are waving red flags.
So much scripture has been abused or omitted that it is healthy to question everything and search the scriptures.
On staff at my former mega we were told by the new 12 year old (smile) associate pastor, (of the associate pastor...no kidding) who wanted to do a 'stations of the cross' thing but make it look and feel totally 'unCatholic'. Those were his words.
That was a big hairy job for us PR/Marketing types. But I am sure you see where I am going with this...These things are 'secretly' creeping in. We MUST question.
I have since repented and am outta there.
Preaacherdudewhoislovedbyall wrote:
"Googly Moogly? Right back at ya! Oh and since you took out a muffler on the Bartlett railroad tracks, I'll admit to bottoming out a 4 door Nova containing 8 goofy teenagers on "thrill hill". Can ya top that?
Reply: Well, this car was a 78 Datsun B210."
I only want to know one thing: Did they have 8 tracks?
I apologize, Mary. I wasn't on edge at all and didn't think you were being a smart aleck. I meant no offense to you or to Mr. Priest. I was merely pointing out that everyone needs to make his or her profile visible to post. I guess my attempt to lighten the mood was missed by some. Again, I apologize.
Until very recently, our pastor and the leadership at Bellevue has denied being Purpose Driven, despite requiring S.T.E.P. classes for membership and having followed Rick Warren's transitioning process to the letter. Now, they admit they have been Purpose Driven all along.
Piglet says:
Wait, did I miss a day of postings or what? Who admitted this and when?
allofgrace said... I'm not sure there's anything inherently wrong with it, but for me personally, I think it's wise to avoid doing what scripture does not prescribe
but when Piglet states facts about credit cards and other issues, you want to throw her out of the church on her tail. How is that possible that you can be so blind to one, yet so HIGHLY VIGILANT to others?
Piglet says:
Oh, thanks Karen, for your coming to my defense! You know I love ya'.
But just so we don't get on the credit card jag - I never mentioned credit cards - only the direct billing and other various questionable items.
Why wants us to drop this while the culprits are hiding the books behind their backs and won't let us look. He thinks we are too slow to get the implications of this...
Karen said... My physical therapist and I were talking about prayer the other day and we discovered we do a lot of "prayer showering"
You all don't want to know where I read my Bible and pray each morning. And I don't want to give that particular activity a name with the word "prayer" in front of it!
junk, I think you knew what I was referring to, but just in case...what I meant had to do with worship...and I stand by what I said...in the OT men were put to death for offering strange fire...that which God did not prescribe. If you wanna get fast and loose with everything God didn't say you can get down a wrong road real quick. I think we live in a time where men trifle with God and His word as though it doesn't matter...especially to God...but the Scriptures paint a different picture.
Wait, did I miss a day of postings or what? Who admitted this and when?
I thought I was keeping up....
Reply,
A family member of mine called the church to ask about the classes required for church membership recently. She spoke to Webb Williams, who told her that we had had the discovery classes for quite some time. He said for a while they were combined into one class, but now, they were divided into three classes, aka Warren style. He told her BBC basing this on a book called the Purpose Driven Church by Rick Warren. He told her we were a Purpose Driven Church, and had been since ??? (some years)
I'm amazed that anyone has admitted to this. But it certainly makes sense.
If I thought anyone would talk to me I would want to call Webb and ask him what he thinks about the direction Warren is moving ...or if he even knows.....
Piglet...they know where Warren IS now and where he is headed...
...but as Warren says, 'you can't argue with success'...
...so this is how they plan to bring up the numbers. They got rid of the 'dead' weight. You all need to realize that they are very happy you all are gone. You see...
Unchurched Harry is out there waiting to be entertained.
Karen said... For baby Christians who see the words "prayer walk" and do not have the tools to discern what kind of activity it is, they can get wrapped in the contemplative/labrinyth prayer walks that are becoming prevalent. Prayer walks that are walking around the neighborhood or around a particular church should be called something else as to not cause confusion, right? I know BBC has "watchmen on the wall" - isn't that sort of a prayer walk, but not a contemplative prayer issue? Am I making sense to anyone, but myself? :)
Thanks for your response. You make sense to me. :) I appreciate the desire to be watchful and on guard when seeing words that are used as buzzwords in certain movements. Back in the 80s, during the SBC controversy over liberalism in seminaries and certain pulpits, it was common for those who called themselves "moderates" to say that they believed that the Bible contained the Word of God and that it was authoritative in all matters of faith. While those words sound right on the surface, some were using them to mean that only parts of the Bible are God's Word and that we shouldn't expect it to be accurate in matters of science or history, only "spiritual truths."
However, I completely agree with Dr. Priest's take on this matter. We shouldn't have to avoid using words with good and valid Christian meanings that convey biblical concepts because others abuse those words. The Bible does contain God's Word and it is authoritative in matters of faith ... we shouldn't avoid affirming those truths just because some have used those phrases as a way to cover up the fact that they did not also believe that all of the Bible is God's Word and that it is inerrant in all that it says.
Churchmouse said... It is not the specific content that is troubling, but the ritualistic process of it. It indicates the presence of Emergent Church theology. Did you look at the link?
Thanks for your response. I should have gotten caught up on this thread before posting my question about what was wrong with the content, then I would have known what the concerns were. But as I said above, I am squarely in line with what Dr. Priest has said on this matter. I think some on this blog would disagree on this, and I do love them and greatly respect their opinions, and I realize where they are coming from based on their own personal experiences. And I very much appreciate the calls to be on guard against false doctrine and unbiblical practices -- but I also believe we must be careful not to react too strongly to the words being used without first learning the intent of those using them.
Karen said... What say you about getting a Jeep frame stuck in a snow drift at the Raleigh Springs Mall? Talent or no? :)
I know you weren't asking me, but I say that takes either great talent or having been in Memphis for a lot of years (or maybe both), since snow drifts in these parts are few and far between!
junk99mail said: And I very much appreciate the calls to be on guard against false doctrine and unbiblical practices -- but I also believe we must be careful not to react too strongly to the words being used without first learning the intent of those using them.
Reply: Junk, I had posted last night that I was looking at Baptist Church websites in this area.This was my post about Bartlett Baptist that drew a firestorm:
"Bartlett Baptist has a prayer walk posted on their events calendar."
It was an honest post. Do you think that was an over reaction? I believe the discussion that followed was enlightening and beneficial. ???
Churchmouse said... It was an honest post. Do you think that was an over reaction? I believe the discussion that followed was enlightening and beneficial. ???
Oh, no....I don't think you overreacted at all, and I didn't mean to imply that you had. I apologize for not being more clear. It is good that you pointed it out and I agree that the discussion was beneficial. I was just throwing in the comment about being careful not to overeact to words as my own little lagniappe, for the benefit of all who blog here, for what it's worth.
"I was just throwing in the comment about being careful not to overeact to words as my own little lagniappe, for the benefit of all who blog here, for what it's worth."
You did not overreact at all. To the contrary, you did what you should have done and what we all need to do. What the term 'prayer walk' might mean to one...perhaps praying while one walks would take on an entirely different meaning to another...which would mean praying in the contemplative prayer ritualistic mode and/or the emergent ritualistic mode implied by Dan Kimball, an emergent guru, in his book, "The Emergent Church", which is/was available at Lifeway, if it hasn't been taken off the shelves by people protesting its presence there. Christian people cannot take for granted something may be politically correct just because the wording used to mean something else or vice versa. It is our duty to God as His children to be certain that what is being conveyed is of Him and not the world. You did good.
Junk: However, I completely agree with Dr. Priest's take on this matter. We shouldn't have to avoid using words with good and valid Christian meanings that convey biblical concepts because others abuse those words. The Bible does contain God's Word and it is authoritative in matters of faith ... we shouldn't avoid affirming those truths just because some have used those phrases as a way to cover up the fact that they did not also believe that all of the Bible is God's Word and that it is inerrant in all that it says.
REPLY:
Junk, while I could and did agree with Dr. Priest on the terminology of prayer walking, I could not agree with him (and he didn’t really put forth an argument) about “prayer stations.”
Here is the danger: “Prayer Stations” have been used in Roman Catholicism for centuries – in abbeys, monasteries, at RCC shrines, etc. It has never been terminology associated with the Christian church, so why should Christians adopt it? Surely the born again sheep are not so dumb that we cannot think up a proper and acceptable term of our own without having to borrow from pagans.
I apologize, Mary. I wasn't on edge at all and didn't think you were being a smart aleck. I meant no offense to you or to Mr. Priest. I was merely pointing out that everyone needs to make his or her profile visible to post. I guess my attempt to lighten the mood was missed by some. Again, I apologize.
REPLY:
NASS, I think you have me confused with someone else. I didn't make any type of comment that implied you were on edge.
oc says: Mary, did you have a Christmas tree last year? Just sayin'.
REPLY:
Yes, I did, right next to our Nativity scene. Our children are all grown but they grew up knowing the Nativity was the real meaning of Christmas and the Christmas tree was just for fun.
Now, back to my work or I'll never get through. :-)
Nass: Good to hear SOTL is on her way home. Funny little tidbit....guess who I saw today? A CErtain person was riding coasters at Six Flags in Atlanta! It sure was hot here in Atlanta...no ocean breezes or sea air.......
Surely the born again sheep are not so dumb that we cannot think up a proper and acceptable term of our own without having to borrow from pagans.
oc says: Mary, did you have a Christmas tree last year? Just sayin'.
Mary's REPLY:
Yes, I did, right next to our Nativity scene. Our children are all grown but they grew up knowing the Nativity was the real meaning of Christmas and the Christmas tree was just for fun.
Now, back to my work or I'll never get through. :-)
Oc asks: what do you call the days of the week? I'm not trying to be 'obnoxious', just trying to make a point.
Mary said, "Here is the danger: “Prayer Stations” have been used in Roman Catholicism for centuries – in abbeys, monasteries, at RCC shrines, etc. It has never been terminology associated with the Christian church, so why should Christians adopt it? Surely the born again sheep are not so dumb that we cannot think up a proper and acceptable term of our own without having to borrow from pagans."
Comment: Yes, this is all true. However, again...in the terminology upheavel we have today, actually a prayer walk is also a labyrinth. And in Dan Kimball's book, The Emergent Church...a prayer walk means something other than walking while praying. Thing is...it can be confusing to people who do understand it;can you imagine how confusing it is to parents you might extend an invitation to-to bring their children to VBS who normally don't even come to church, perhaps the unsaved? Seems to me the best thing to do would be just say it like it is intended...Come pray with us as we walk through our VBS area. Wouldn't that work? Don't say come to our prayer walk...in today's world people will avoid you just because they think there is something wrong there. Have I made my point yet?
I'm right there with you on this. I think the danger in the term "prayer walk" is most prevalent in babuy Christians or for people who honestly don't know the difference. If I didn't know the difference and say I had attended a "prayer walk" with some friends and we walked and prayed. Then someone else invited me to a prayer walk and it involved stations or a labryinth. Because I didn't know and the terms were the same, I would not know that they were 2 totally different experiences with 2 totally different agendas.
Like I said before, it's like using the word "gay". If you want a "gay old time" in Memphis and a "gay old time" in San Francisco, you probably are looking at 2 totally different experiences.
Don't Ride With Strangers aka Lynn said... In January 2004, people would at least come by and say hi if you were new. Now...If your not in the clique, your out of luck. For me, it didn't really take long for me to realize I would never fit in. At first I thought it was me because I am so shy and reserved. As more time went on, the more I realized it was the people there instead. And when I would be talking to someone, often, the person I was talking to would turn to someone else and start talking to them as if I wasn't even there.
Lynn,
I was hoping to speak with you some on the beach trip. I'm sorry you decided not to go.
We've never met, but I've seen your posts here. Years ago I felt the same way you feel right now, but I decided to change that. Instead of waiting for people to come to me, I started approaching them. Instead of going to the Career events for myself, I started going to be a blessing to others. When I did, I was able to overcome my shyness and finally fit in. If I hadn't made that choice, I'd still be on the fringe and feel like a border citizen.
The department is no different now than it has ever been. Cliques have always been the biggest complaint in the single adult ministry, but it's just human nature. It's up to you to find a place where you fit, and you shouldn't give up until you do.
At times I even felt that even the leadership of the Career ministry was making fun of me.
There was an instance back in 2004 when I had a roommate put sunblock on my back because I couldn't reach. That became a running joke for a year. I'm all for laughing at mistakes....but geeze, sometimes the laughing felt more like ridicule than anything else.
Lynn, if this was a bad experience for you then I apologize on behalf of the department. It was not directed at you personally, but I do understand that it could have felt that way. I remember the event very well, but I had no idea who was involved. The joke was that one man asked another man to put sunblock on his back, which is funny to an immature group like Career 1.
My advice to you is to not give up, but to go back with a servant's spirit and strive to minister to the needs of others in the department. It worked for me, and it will work for you too.
Karen: Since I'm just able to read the blog at night this week, I must say I thought todays conversation was informative and conversational as opposed to being confrontational. I really appreciate Dr. Priest stopping by. I also think a good point was made regarding semantics. Several years ago I did a study on cults and one thing that was stressed over and over again was that the same words mean different things so you have to clarify your terms. In today's world, we just have to be careful.
Along the same lines as using words with "new" meanings is the practice of telling the truth in such a way as to deceive. Some at BBC have said "I didn't lie" and that is true, but they did deceive and that is wrong. That, too, is a lack of integrity.
Did anyone else go to GBC last Sunday night and enjoy the hymn singing as much as I did? That must have been the 1st and last verses of about 10 hymns. SO refreshing!
"Lynn, if this was a bad experience for you then I apologize on behalf of the department. It was not directed at you personally, but I do understand that it could have felt that way. I remember the event very well, but I had no idea who was involved. The joke was that one man asked another man to put sunblock on his back, which is funny to an immature group like Career 1."
It wasn't a bad experience per se....Heck, I even laughed about it. But it was funny for a couple months. but the joke kept going off and on for a year or so.
And there is a change in the Career group that I have been able to sense. There are some who know exactly how I feel about Gaines. Sometimes I have felt isolated because I am vocal about my dislike of Gaines behavior as pastor.
Mary said... Here is the danger: “Prayer Stations” have been used in Roman Catholicism for centuries – in abbeys, monasteries, at RCC shrines, etc. It has never been terminology associated with the Christian church, so why should Christians adopt it? Surely the born again sheep are not so dumb thatsti we cannot think up a proper and acceptable term of our own without having to borrow from pagans.
Although I am not Catholic and have serious disagreements with Catholic theology and practices, it seems a bit extreme to me to imply that Catholics are not Christians and to call them pagans.
Just sayin'...
(P.S. Interestingly, but not totally relevant, my Word Verification for this post is paxtv)
imaresistor said... Don't say come to our prayer walk...in today's world people will avoid you just because they think there is something wrong there. Have I made my point yet?
You have made your point very well. I love you, I appreciate you, and I understand you ... but I also happen to disagree with you on this point.
Just as you are wary of certain key phrases commonly associated with Emerging Church / Purpose Driven / Church Growth, I am wary of making certain words or phrases off limits or automatically associating them with those who use them a certain way.
Our society is being hijacked and reformulated by liberal thought police who tell people what words they can and can’t use. The very essence of "political correctness" is the attempt to control what is the "acceptable" way of speaking and thinking, by declaring certain words and concepts politically incorrect. And postmodernism’s insistence that everything is relative has led to the common error of assuming that the words a person uses mean whatever the hearer/reader decides they mean, rather than what was intended by the original speaker/writer.
As one who stands for the biblical concepts of absolute truth and soul competence, I believe it is important that we diligently seek to understand the intent of what people are intending to communicate before assuming or concluding their intent because we are wary of their choice of words.
StayedOnThee said... Did anyone else go to GBC last Sunday night and enjoy the hymn singing as much as I did? That must have been the 1st and last verses of about 10 hymns. SO refreshing!
It was great, brought back so wonderful memories from my younger days.
Remember PAGE 10!
Brother Mike said we may just go thru the entire hymn book next time; he just might try it, too.
Karen said... If you want a "gay old time" in Memphis and a "gay old time" in San Francisco, you probably are looking at 2 totally different experiences.
Yeah ... but everyone knows what a gay old time is in the town of Bedrock! Yabba dabba dooooo!
what ever happened to a good ole prayer MEETING? What is up with all this 'walking' business? (Doing my Jackie Mason impression)
Junk wrote: Although I am not Catholic and have serious disagreements with Catholic theology and practices, it seems a bit extreme to me to imply that Catholics are not Christians and to call them pagans."
Junk, I love ya, man but ...BIG CAN OF WORMS Here. This could be an entire thread discussion.
So, perhaps you can tell me WHERE they manufacture those wafers that are made of Christ's Body? That is NO metaphor, friend. They believe it...
When was the last time you PRAYED to Mary?
All those mafia guys thought they were saved because they were sprinkled as babies...
Greetings, Friends, from the sun drenched shores of the Caribbean.
Did we have fun? OH MY GOODNESS, my face hurts from laughing so much.
The children in the schools that we performed for were precious!! On the second school we visited, they wanted our autographs!!! They were so appreciative of us coming to see them.
I had my fruity drink with the little umbrella, and I learned to do the cha cha slide with all the young people. I forgot I wasn't a teenager anymore. I had my hair put up in dredlocks, complete wtih colored beads, and I sang Harper Valley PTA at karioke.
AS much fun as we had, i'm glad i'm home, and i thought i heard sad viola music several times from afar. :)
This may be very ignorant, and I may be blasted for this, and probably will, and that's ok. But I have to ask... Why are we always the ones running away?
We are the Victors, why are we always on the defensive? We should be attacking. We ought to be riding into the this sick world with a war yell. We are the only ones who have the Answer. We know and belong to The King of Kings. WE should be kicking tail. We know the end of the story. I'm sick of letting the dark side back us into corners where we have to be so very careful that we can't celebrate our victory and freedom in Christ.
I'm tired of our side whimpering like we're the defeated ones. It's getting really sad. We can't even use certain phrases. Why can't we take hold of terms like 'purpose driven' and the like, and turn it all around and use it for Christ's sake, like we did the Christmas tree or the day called Sunday? I know, here it comes. Reasons why we need to fear the boogey man. I know all those reasons. Heard them all in theology classes. And Eternity is going to be great. I believe that. Streets of gold, no weeping, no pain. Great. Only problem is, I need some victory now. Is 'Victory In Jesus' only for the 'here after'? OK. Ready for incoming.
You said, "Although I am not Catholic and have serious disagreements with Catholic theology and practices, it seems a bit extreme to me to imply that Catholics are not Christians and to call them pagans. Just sayin'..."
On my post at 3:55 PM, May 31, 2007, today...I give a link at the conclusion of my post. You need to watch it. Everybody needs to watch it...that is why I posted it. Bro. David Cloud preaches on 'Catholicism, Past and Present' and it is quite good. It is a DVD and he goes into depth on the history of Catholicism and where we are today in it. I cannot recommend it highly enough.
There have been a lot of changes in the Career department (even the name is different), but overall it's not really that much different than it's ever been. When the format of the Career assemblies changed in 2005 (before Dr. Gaines came) it became much more difficult to socialize on Sunday mornings. Most of the assembly time is now taken up by the praise bands, and it's harder to meet people. I think that's probably what you're seeing. It's harder to meet people, but not impossible. It just takes a little extra effort.
Single's departments traditionally have never been warm, welcoming places. That's why we need the more experienced members who see the problem to step up and try to change it.
The controversy surrounding the leadership has served as a tool for division that we've never seen before, but there's not a majority for or against the pastor that I've seen. It all depends on who you speak to, but I don't believe that questioning the pastor (in an appropriate way) would result in your being labeled as undesirable. There was a very heated argument in Gulf Shores about the matter, and I'm sure you would have had a lot to add.
I've often felt left out and even shunned by others in the ministry, but I now see that as their problem instead of mine. God has taught me that although I need to love others and put their needs before my own, I'm not to depend on them for my own happiness. I've tried it, and I discovered that they very seldom cooperate.
In many ways, the SingleLife department is a mission field. It needs a lot of help, and I hope you'll give it another chance.
Hey Lin! You said, "Don't even get me started...Nass...stop me!"
Comment: Okey dokey! I just referred him to the link I posted today at at 3:55 PM, May 31, 2007, today. He needs to watch that. It is an eye opener for sure. Nevermind Nass...I got it! :)
imaresistor said... On my post at 3:55 PM, May 31, 2007, today...I give a link at the conclusion of my post. You need to watch it. Everybody needs to watch it...that is why I posted it. Bro. David Cloud preaches on 'Catholicism, Past and Present' and it is quite good. It is a DVD and he goes into depth on the history of Catholicism and where we are today in it. I cannot recommend it highly enough.
Don't get me wrong ... I am certainly no apologist for or supporter of Catholicism! I'm also no stranger to their doctrines. But I will try to make opportunity to watch the message you linked to.
powergmommy said, oc, not sure I know the answer but is the question I ask my daughter when I am worn out....do we have to wait until we die and go to heaven???
She tells me we get glimpses here...we are being sanctified and refined.....so I guess when we are 80 or something......????
Reply; it's a mixed blessing. Glimpses of Heaven, glimpses of Hell. I think it is enough to make you choose, though. Just sayin', oc.
I had my fruity drink with the little umbrella, and I learned to do the cha cha slide with all the young people. I forgot I wasn't a teenager anymore. I had my hair put up in dredlocks, complete wtih colored beads, and I sang Harper Valley PTA at karioke.
Piglet says:
Welcome back, SOTL. Are you sure someone didn't spike that little fruity drink? :)
struggling to stay said
does anyone know anything about this book called Blue Like Jazz that is getting so much buzz amongst the leadership at BBC?
Piglet says:
I read a couple of reviews just now. The word relevant is used over and over ....
strugglingtostay said... does anyone know anything about this book called Blue Like Jazz that is getting so much buzz amongst the leadership at BBC?
Never heard of it, but you can read a little about it here.
At the risk of sounding like I am contradicting what I said earlier, there are certain key phrases here that sound "emergent" -- things like "postmodern" and "his desire to appeal to those experimenting with other flavors of spirituality". To be clear, I'm only saying that one must be cautious and not assume that (1) because it is being marketed as a "Christian” book that it is automatically biblically sound or that (2) because some emergent sounding words are used that it automatically biblically unsound.
Most of us have seen pictures of pets and their people, both looking alike?
Just... maybe we start looking like who/what we are looking at...
I'm not sure about everybody else, but I certainly don't want to be looking for boogers behind every bush, devils through every doorway, traps in every trail... kooks in every "korner" ...
It is said that people are trained to recognize a counterfeit dollar, not by studying imitations, but instead by studying the real thing.
"I had my fruity drink with the little umbrella, and I learned to do the cha cha slide with all the young people. I forgot I wasn't a teenager anymore. I had my hair put up in dredlocks, complete wtih colored beads, and I sang Harper Valley PTA at karioke."
"...I have to ask... Why are we always the ones running away?
We are the Victors, why are we always on the defensive? We should be attacking. We ought to be riding into the this sick world with a war yell. We are the only ones who have the Answer. We know and belong to The King of Kings. WE should be kicking tail. We know the end of the story. I'm sick of letting the dark side back us into corners where we have to be so very careful that we can't celebrate our victory and freedom in Christ.
I'm tired of our side whimpering like we're the defeated ones. It's getting really sad. We can't even use certain phrases. Why can't we take hold of terms like 'purpose driven' and the like, and turn it all around and use it for Christ's sake, like we did the Christmas tree or the day called Sunday? I know, here it comes. Reasons why we need to fear the boogey man. I know all those reasons. Heard them all in theology classes. And Eternity is going to be great. I believe that. Streets of gold, no weeping, no pain. Great. Only problem is, I need some victory now. Is 'Victory In Jesus' only for the 'here after'?
OK. Ready for incoming."
OC,
I figure you're speaking in the big picture, but with this horrible split at BBC, I see this blog in many ways still on the defensive. I know it is because the truthseekers are really a loose confederation of individuals--alienated by the way the pedophile scandal was (stage) managed, the lack of transparency and partial (in both senses of the term) investigations--while the administration has the deep pockets, lawyers and other resourses to deflect real, consequential, responsibility.
In this sense, I wish you would know that if you follow what is true and just in your heart, even if rends something so dear, then you have nothing of which to be defensive, and this above all is like the trial by fire of your faith, against all odds. You are strong and beautiful for it.
Ok, so I had an extra beer at the pool hall--sorry. But just so you know that at the heart of the matter, you can hold up your head; and as much as that the snivelers will seek to take you on tagents, avoid their trifling crap.
It is said that people are trained to recognize a counterfeit dollar, not by studying imitations, but instead by studying the real thing.
May we all focus on the face of our Saviour ------------------ A hearty Amen to this!
"In the year that King Uzziah died (in place of King Uzziah put whatever personal loss you have or are suffering - perhaps the loss of the Bellevue you once loved), I SAW ALSO THE LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and His train filled the temple" (Isaiah 6:1).
"When the child of God loves the WORD OF GOD and sees the SON OF GOD, he is changed by the SPIRIT OF GOD into the IMAGE OF GOD for the GLORY OF GOD because he has found the TRUTH OF GOD." - A.Rogers
Instead of waiting for people to come to me, I started approaching them. Instead of going to the Career events for myself, I started going to be a blessing to others. When I did, I was able to overcome my shyness and finally fit in. ----------------- "A man who hath friends must show himself to be friendly" (Prov.18:24). Whatever we need from others, we need to extend to them. That's the Golden Rule and it works! The world is full of "takers" and needs more "givers."
I believe the reason people jump on the "next big thing" in modern Christianity, such as PD, Blue Like Jazz, etc. is that deep down they really don't believe that the Bible and the God of the Bible is sufficient...they have a need to re-invent both to create a God and a faith that suits what their itching ears want to hear. They worship the god of their imaginations...who they WANT Him to be, rather than who He IS as revealed in Scripture. "Ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth."
Please refrain from using the anonymous identity as it becomes confusing distinguishing one anonymous commenter from another. Either register with Blogger (you can do this anonymously) and log in or select a unique screen name.
A how-to guide.
ReplyDeleteNBBCOF
ReplyDeleteThanks for this thread. I went and posted comments concerning the situation at BBC - not following bylaws, closing the books, shutting down business meetings.
We'll see if the moderator approves it.
This is the greatest commandment. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind.The second is like it.You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I believe somewhere in this mess we have all lost sight of these two. I love you all! Peace be with you.
ReplyDeletebmcgo3 said
ReplyDeleteThis is the greatest commandment. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind.The second is like it.You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I believe somewhere in this mess we have all lost sight of these two. I love you all! Peace be with you.
Piglet says:
I agree. The lust for power and money have taken over our church and the membership has been manipulated - and if they refuse to be manipulated, they are trampled or run off.
Putting God and others first would DEFINITELY solve this whole thing. Please call the pastor's office.
YEY! I got my comment posted on the other blog so I copied it here:
ReplyDeleteanonymous said
I have to say I don't disagree with anything you've said. But what concrete actions are you suggesting a member of a FBC Jax or Belleview or Dallas take? What are they doing now that they shouldn't, or what are they not doing that they should?
Piglet says:
I think a good start would be to obey their own bylaws. Bellevue Baptist Church, of which I am a member, has bylaws that imply monthly business meetings.
We recently had a YEARLY meeting that was shut down after 45 minutes when the motions the leadership wanted were passed and other motions they didn't want heard were making it to the floor (one to adopt the SBC policy for sexual purity of ministers, and another to adopt QUARTERLY business meetings).
We have started a petition for another BUSINESS MEETING and were only able to gather less than 500 signatures.
We also cannot see our own financials. BBC has recently broken the law by refusing to open the books when requested by our members. Thousands of dollars are needed to pursue this in court but they know we don't have it....
So here we have a leadership disobeying their own bylaws and the majority of members don't know or care. The minority who DO want accountablilty are trampled and are leaving.
The problem is a misuse of POWER and MONEY and Chrstians who DON'T CARE.
Steve Gaines is waiting for all those who care to leave so he can fill his pockets with the money of those left. Trouble is, there may not be enough who don't care left to pay the light bill, much less his half-million dollar a year salary package....
It amazes me that regular folks don't see a GLARING admission of guilt when a church refuses to open the books to it's own members and does not wnat to have business meetings.
ReplyDeleteGee, people, if you walk in your child's room and they immediately hide something behind their backs, don't you know they are hiding something a make them show you what it is?
These are adult CHRISTIAN LEADERS who are doing this very thing and the masses are gullible enough to let it go? Don't you people know they are laughing at you?
Okay, somebody else can do the talking.....
I read this book a couple of weeks ago. Sort of made me angry & sad. I hope the new president of NAMB will be different. From what I read about him, it will be.
ReplyDelete"I read this book a couple of weeks ago. Sort of made me angry & sad. I hope the new president of NAMB will be different. From what I read about him, it will be. "
ReplyDeletePreacherdude, you have more faith in man than I do.
Question: Why should churches send money to Atlanta to be distributed around the US? This is very different than what the IMB does. The National is for church plants and missionaires in the US. This sort of reminds me of sending my money to Washington for retirement!
If you read the book, you know that 126 million dollars to the NAMB was to fund missions in the US. In the book, she was able to mention 5000 such souls. But we know that most was spent on high salaries, travel and lots of promotion of chachtkes such as bracelets, mugs, etc.
I believe the book because I saw the exact same type of things at my former mega. These large organizations are instinctively wasteful and ineffective because there is no 'real' accountability.
How much does it cost to preach the Word in the US?
Piglet,
ReplyDeleteYour posts are so right on target!
Thanks for expressing concisely and with clarity what others of us think but have difficulty putting into words. And your retorts are
"gotcha's" without being hurtful.
:-)
Piglet - thanks for your post on my blog. You are welcome anytime. A question for bloggers on this site, did Steve Gaines put his wife on staff and give her a separate salary in addition to what he already makes? Did he hire any of his children full-time and give them a salary and benefits? Does he promote Holy Land trips that he is the "host" of? What about his book deals and preaching circuit? Does he accept thousands to preach elsewhere while the church pays thousands to fill the pulpit while he is gone? If so, would you feel that maybe he is over stepping and taking advantage of God's loving and generous people? Even if his salary was in the millions, it would not be as big a deal as if he also paid his wife and son as full time staff members who answer to no one and have no responsibilities. I can't believe those who have information stand quietly by and watch this happen.
ReplyDeleteNASS - were you all aware that Rodney Brooks, the long-time minister of music at FBC Jax, has resigned and will be moving on to Charles Stanley's church in Atlanta? Some say due to not getting along with the "leadership" other than the pastor.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"A question for bloggers on this site, did Steve Gaines put his wife on staff and give her a separate salary in addition to what he already makes? Did he hire any of his children full-time and give them a salary and benefits?"
ReplyDeleteHow could anyone know if Donna Gaines is on the payroll or not? The books are closed to only but a few.
I really do not think this is whether your church is worse than BBC. This is about the arrogance of false teachers who are fleecing the sheep for personal gain. In high salaries, books royalties, speaking engagements, hiring family, etc.
Friend, it is happening all over Christendom. Ministry is the new path to celebrity and wealth. Many of these pastors and 'administrators' are in the top 10% of income earners in the US.
Just go browse the 990's of some very well known para church organizations run by pastors we all hear on the radio. You will see salaries of the wife and kids on there, too.
John Hagee was smart. He put his para church organization under his church umbrella to hide his 1 million dollar salary (income from the TV show) and the salaries of his wife and kids. See, as a church...you don't have to report it on a 990 for the world to see.
There is a chart of some of them on my blog but what is curious about the 990's is they do not include speaking fees or book royalties...keep that in mind.
http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/2006/10/nouveau-riche_13.html
I wish it were only FBX.
Lin - do you mind if I link to your article on my blog?
ReplyDeleteIt sickens me and deeply hurts my heart to know of all the Godly folks that gave selfishly to purchase the property on Appling and to in addition, gave to the building fund, when they stuggled and went without. And now, the end result is to pay King Steve an enormous salary so he can live like a king in a city whose housing cost is far lower than Gardendale and the surrounding areas in B'ham. The only positive is that for many years the blessings of BBC poured out. Hopefully those precious ones who gave so generously when they did not have the means to do so will not feel robbed in the end.
ReplyDeleteLily
Lin - do you mind if I link to your article on my blog? "
ReplyDeleteNot at all. I had trouble with the chart sizing but have a link to it that is easier to read.
Lindon - thanks. How do I go about getting such a chart for the Jacksonville area pastors?
ReplyDeleteLin said...
ReplyDelete"A question for bloggers on this site, did Steve Gaines put his wife on staff and give her a separate salary in addition to what he already makes? Did he hire any of his children full-time and give them a salary and benefits?"
How could anyone know if Donna Gaines is on the payroll or not? The books are closed to only but a few.
FWIW
Bellevue Baptist Church
Budget 2007-08
Frequently Asked Questions
Updated March 23, 2007
Is Donna Gaines paid a salary of any kind? What is being spent by BBC to assist Mrs. Gaines in the establishment of her new ministry? How much is being or has been spent to video her lessons?
Donna Gaines does not receive a salary of any kind from Bellevue Baptist Church. The recording of her Bible study for distribution is an excellent ministry outreach of the church. Donna does not receive any compensation. We look at that as a missions outreach just as we would our television broadcast or a missions project, etc.
I checked out the JAX blog site and was disturbed by what I read.
ReplyDeleteThey seem to be facing similar problems as we at Bellevue - and also posts from First Bapt. Dallas expressed almost carbon copy problems. I am beginning to see that many SB churches are in trouble. The enemy is at work and winning some battles but in the end God wins the war! "And the devil that DECEIVED them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night, forever and ever" (Rev.20:10). As Dr. Rogers always said: "Folks, it's getting GLORIOUSLY dark." :-)
blt,
ReplyDeleteOur peace is the fact that it is God's money and it is sacred. It was given to the Lord, not Bellevue Baptist church and therefore how it is spent or squandered is His responsibility. I would NOT want to answer to Him for spending sacred dollars on foolishness, arrogant living and selfish lusts.
alphasenior,
Just because the leadership puts out a statement saying they are not paying Donna Gaines a salary does not make it so. If ALL the truth were known and the books were open to view, we would all be surprised at how much the Gaines' are dipping into the till.
Emergent Manifesto now in print..
ReplyDeleteThe Emergent Church leadership comes fully out of the closet and reveals their aims, goals, and vision.
You will not want to miss reading this look into the dark new age abyss known as emergent.
EMERGING CHURCH COMES OUT OF THE CLOSET IN MANIFESTO
been redeemed said:
ReplyDeleteIf ALL the truth were known and the books were open to view, we would all be surprised at how much the Gaines' are dipping into the till.
MJM suggests editing to:
"we might all be surprised ..."
Thinking it and posting it (and thus implying criminal activity) don't make it so.
32+: I have been concerned at the direction of the SBC and have been rebuked by some for that. The fact of the matter is that just like BBC has been hijacked, the SBC has been as well. It is apparent that other churches are reaping thoe same sour fruits. We must pray harder and watch the skies...it is getting gloriously dark.....
ReplyDeleteCome, Lord Jesus, Come!
32years said,
ReplyDelete" As Dr. Rogers always said: "Folks, it's getting GLORIOUSLY dark." :-) "
Reply, "32years, those very words have been on my mind."
Trading Truth for False Unity
ReplyDeleteExcellent new aticle by Berit Kjos
on the state of The Church in End Times.
LOVING FALSE UNITY OVER GOD AND HIS TRUTH
I am going to post this information again. Faith Baptist Church in Bartlett has updated their website. They have included a "Faith Prayer Walk" with prayer stations. Ima was kind enough to give me a link to information about prayer stations. This is Emergent Church 'stuff'.
ReplyDeleteHere is information on prayer stations. I guess you will have to cut and paste the web address while I learn to make links. =(
ReplyDeletehttp://lighthousetrailsresearch.com/stationsofthecross.htm,
Stations of the Cross and Prayer Stations
ReplyDeleteIf The Gathering hears about this there will be beer at one of the stations I suppose. Should draw a good crowd.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThanks, bin wonderin x2, for the links.
ReplyDeleteBartlett Baptist has a prayer walk posted on their events calendar.
ReplyDeleteWhy,
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you speak the truth?
Why did the elders refuse to address the credit card issue quietly for 9 months?
Why did the elders eventually make the statement "here is everything" when it wasn't everything?
Why did the elders not show the deacons everything?
Why didn't the elders tell the deacon body on the front end that Steve had more than one credit card?
Why didn't the elders tell the deacon body on the front end about the charges Steve Gaines direct billed to the church, i.e. Colonial Country Club and Donna's birthday party at the Hilton?
Why do the elders refuse to allow an independant audit of the check registry of Bellevue?
Why, that's ok if you don't answer the questions. We already have a good idea of what the outcome would be.
Why are you afraid of 100% transparency?
Churchmouse, I'm reposting my reply from the last thread:
ReplyDeleteChurchmouse said...
Does it remind you of SG and the "prayer walks" that began at Bellevue under Paul Williams?
This is on Faith Baptist's updated website.
Reply:
Churchmouse, I went to Faith’s website to read this and I’m totally heartsick. I’ve visited Faith several times and I was planning to visit again this Sunday. But now I don’t know. I’ll go back to the website tomorrow when I’m not so tired and read the entire thing and then decide.
Thanks for the heads-up.
Watchman...
ReplyDeleteOh, I am SO glad to see you! Have missed your input here.
Would like your opinion on "Spending God's Money" by Mary K. Branson. I haven't read it yet, but plan to. I am just so happy to see the evil being revealed.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletewhy said...
ReplyDeleteBin: what is " The Gathering" to speak of?
9:15 AM, May 31, 2007
My bad. It's "The Journey" not "The Gathering". Click the link to read the whole thing. I guess my questions revolve around who is buying the beer and who is drinking it and how much of it, etc. I have no issues with going to where the people are. Becoming like them in an effort to appeal to them seems a slippery slope. Serving alcohol to them, well I've got problmes with that. Need more info but at first glance I've got questions.
I gove these guys credit for one thing... they started their own church and didn't go in and "transition" an already existing church.
excerpt:
Theology at the Bottleworks is run by a wildly successful congregation of young St. Louisans called The Journey.
Every month, dozens show up at the brewpub to drink beer and talk about issues ranging from racism in St. Louis to modern-art controversies to the debate about embryonic stem cell research. First-timers are invited to check out the church on Sunday, and Journey leaders say many have. Theology at the Bottleworks is just one of The Journey’s ministries, but it has helped the church grow from 30 members in late 2002 to 1,300 today.
...
The Journey defines itself as an interdenominational church, but it has a working relationship with the Missouri Baptist Convention. That confederation of Baptist churches is the state arm of the largest Protestant denomination in the country, the theologically and socially conservative Southern Baptist Convention.
In 2005, The Journey borrowed $200,000 from the Baptist organization to help buy and renovate a former Catholic church in St. Louis. In December, Baptist leaders began questioning the church’s methods of attracting worshippers, specifically its use of alcohol.
Churchmouse you are welcome. :-)
After reading about the prayer station I remembered I was once at a children's teacher conference where they had set up something like this with stations. You were supposed to go to each station where there was a table and meditate, wash your hands, hold seashells or sign a book or something. At the time I thought it was mostly stupid and a waste of time since that type of stuff is just not my cup of tea.
ReplyDeleteIt felt like they were trying to coerce me into some faux emotional experience or something.
I always wondered about "prayer walks" also. Are prayers more efficacious if you are walking and praying at a certain location in lieu of going to your closet to pray? If so why not prayer jogging since you can cover more ground.
ReplyDeletebin wonderin x2 said...
ReplyDeleteI always wondered about "prayer walks" also. Are prayers more efficacious if you are walking and praying at a certain location in lieu of going to your closet to pray? If so why not prayer jogging since you can cover more ground.
Reply: Good point! The possibilities there are unlimited. =)
Why said
ReplyDeleteRegarding financial records, you spead LIES about the credit card deal and they OPENED the records and that did not stop you. The Deacons and plenty of others saw every single credit card receipt. They do no good trying to please a group like you. There is NO pleasing you. Put your money where your mouth is and if the hate that you spew on here is yourtrue thoughts, MOVE on and leave Bellevue alone.
Piglet says:
SO have you expressed your concern to Mr. Coombs that the records should be surrenedered as the LAW states and we can put all these "rumors and lies" to rest?
Have you?
Before you begin to lump everything you don't understand as a part of the emerging church you should actually understand what is meant by the term. I would suggest you read D.A. Carson's helpful book "Becoming Conversant with the Emerging Church." The emerging church is far more than form. It embraces a relativistic philosophy that is counter to Scripture.
ReplyDeleteSecond, prayer walking is not a practice of the emerging church. The history of prayer walking goes all the way back to the Old Testament worship of Israel. In fact, David's dancing before the Lord in 2 Samuel would have involved walking and praising God. Clearly God was pleased with David's "prayer walk" because 2 Samuel 6:23 indicates Michal, David's wife who criticized him, was stricken with barrenness for her sin.
Third, I am the pastor of Bartlett Baptist Church and can tell you exactly what our prayer walk will involve. Sunday night our church members will go from room to room praying for the teachers and children who will be in those rooms this coming week during Vacation Bible School. There will be no lit candles, no washing our hands, no holding seashells, just God's people on their knees praying that God will use teachers to communicate His truth. God's children will be praying by name for children who have pre-registered for VBS. We will be praying for the dads and moms who will be bringing our children.
If you are not comfortable moving from one classroom to another to pray for the people who will occupy those rooms in VBS next week, I ask you to pray for our church in the privacy of your prayer closet. I would also kindly ask you to stop implying our prayer walk is ungodly and "emerging" without first asking someone who knows what will be involved. We are trying to win the lost of our community without compromising on biblical standards. Our church is far from emerging, I completely disagree with the philosophy behind the emerging church, and we embrace the Word of God as the true center of Christian union, and the supreme standard by which all human conduct, creeds, and religious opinions should be tried.
priestmichael,
ReplyDeleteThank you for posting. We are displaced members of BBC looking for a church with like-minded people with whom to worship. I was the one who posted that you had a prayer walk on your activities calendar.
Prayer walks began at BBC at the time that our new pastor arrived. I believe this is correct. One of the first things he did was assign members of the orchestra to arrive early enough to kneel at each seat in that 7,000 seat auditorium and pray for the person who would sit in that seat.
Now, you see what has happened to BBC. Did the act of praying over each seat impact us in a positive manner? I would have to tell you "no, it did not." It was an indication of our church's new direction.
I am glad that you are not emergent in your teaching. I hope you don't include Warren's step classes, either.
If you are neither emergent or purpose driven, surely you will have compassion for us and not anger.
The "emerging church" has been difficult to define...there's a broad spectrum of thought and practice within its ranks...which makes it hard to pin down. Each doctrine or practice of any church has to be looked at on it's individual merit, or lack thereof. As for prayer walks...personally I can see no Biblical precedent for praying in this manner...I'm not sure there's anything inherently wrong with it, but for me personally, I think it's wise to avoid doing what scripture does not prescribe. I see nothing in scripture which would make praying in such a manner any more effectual than praying while sitting at a desk, kneeling beside one's bed, etc. I'm also not real sure about praying over objects or places...or what value that would have. The Pharisees were rebuked for praying on the street corners to be see of men, and for vain repetitions. This much I'm sure of, God is not contained in a place, and salvation is of the LORD and in Christ, not a place. Perhaps those facts should be our guide.
ReplyDeletepriestmichael,
If you would, can you please give me the scriptural references for prayer walking?
We are neither emergent nor are we "Purpose-Driven" in the sense of following Rick Warren's process of doing church. I would warn, however, the term purpose driven has not always, nor is it now exclusively associated with Saddleback Church or Rick Warren. Dr. Rogers was a close friend and mentor and he told me Bellevue was purpose driven when he was pastor. By purpose driven he meant Bellevue knew its biblical purpose (Magnifying Jesus through worship and the Word. Moving believers in Jesus toward maturity and ministry, and Making Jesus known to our neighbors and the nations.)and was intent on a accomplishing it. We are purpose driven (as opposed to Purpose-Driven with a capital P). We believe God has created our church to magnify Him by loving Him and showing His love to a lost world. To that end we strive.
ReplyDeleteObviously, I do not know all that is happening at Bellevue so my statements are neither an indictment nor endorsement of the present leadership. I have not had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Gaines and I have never heard him express his philosophy of ministry. Therefore, I am not qualified to speak about Bellevue. I can speak, however, about Bartlett. We are committed to never compromise the Word of God for the sake of growing a church. We have recently practiced church discipline. Obviously, that kind of church practice is not popular in our culture, but it is biblical. The Word was, is, and will be sufficient because it is God's Word about The Word!
I pray regularly for Bellevue, its staff, membership, and those who have felt disenfranchised.
"Lindon - thanks. How do I go about getting such a chart for the Jacksonville area pastors? "
ReplyDeleteIf they have para church organizations, the 990's are public information because they are considered non profits. You can search for them on Charity Navigators or on Foundation:
http://tfcny.fdncenter.org/990s/990search/esearch.php
The 990 lists all the revenue, expenses, senior management, board members and their salaries.
Churches do not fall under this legal oversight. The church authorities must be willing to make it public. I expect to see more and more para church organizations move to the church umbrella to escape scrutiny. It is just too easy for us to get the information off the internet anymore.
If you are not comfortable moving from one classroom to another to pray for the people who will occupy those rooms in VBS next week, I ask you to pray for our church in the privacy of your prayer closet. I would also kindly ask you to stop implying our prayer walk is ungodly and "emerging" without first asking someone who knows what will be involved.
ReplyDeleteThanks Michael in Bartlett for your comments and your invitation to pray. I will do that. Sometimes it is as though you are less “committed” if you do not show up for these things so I am glad to see you don’t look down on people that prefer the closet. It is disconcerting to have others look down on you because you don’t feel comfortable praying exactly when and where and how they demand that you do and then fake an emotional experience as a result. I hope that makes sense.
I appreciate your description of exactly what and when you will do at your session for VBS. Asking people to pray for VBS either on site or at home certainly seems like a good thing to me. Didn’t mean to infer you were doing anything wrong if in fact your comments were directed at me.
"I would suggest you read D.A. Carson's helpful book "Becoming Conversant with the Emerging Church." The emerging church is far more than form."
ReplyDeleteExcellent book! I highly recommend it to those who are trying to figure out 'Emergent' whatever it is. Even the Emergents have not figured it out. They are STILL having a 'conversation' about it, though. :o)
Thanks for posting, Priestmichael...not all 'prayer walking' is tainted but it can be too much 'show' and 'works' if not handled properly.
Personally, I like prayer 'driving'. I am alone...closing the eyes is not optional, though. :o)
Just curious...why do you call yourself a priest?
priestmichael,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your words about Dr. Rogers. You must know we loved him and we wanted to love Dr. Gaines as well. If you've been follwing this blog, you should understand that all that is happening at BBC is not all Dr. Gaines fault - we have lay leadership and ministers that are enforcing an agenda that we don't agree with.
As far as "purpose driven", you'll have to excuse some of us (ME!) if we are overly sensitive to the term being used. Rick Warren has made that phrase highly volitle based on his "ministry". Same way the word "gay" is now exclusively used as a homosexual term, it means happy, but is no longer used as such.
I've got many friends who have attended Bartlett Baptist over the years and really enjoy it. My husband and I will probably join you for worship soon as we endeavor to find a new church family. As far as "prayer walking", I've spoken to and emailed back and forth with Dr. Sinquefeld (I always spell it wrong!) at Faith Baptist. He has assured me time and time again that Faith Baptist is a church that wants to fulfull the Great Commission and are in no way affiliated with the "purpose driven/emerging church" movement. I, at the moment, am apt to believe what he says, but as they say "proof is in the pudding".
I think we as Christians should always be on guard for things that "check our Spirit". I believe that's why God gave us that ability in the first place.
At this time of upheaval, some of us on more on guard (overly sensitive) than others. I'm not talking about churchmouse in this instance though - her spiritual discernment is more accute than mine and I totally trust her judgement.
Thanks for joining us! karen
priestmichael,
ReplyDeleteThank you for telling us about your prayer walk. I think our discussion has been helpful.
I might add, it is often not fruitful to ask a church about their programs. Until very recently, our pastor and the leadership at Bellevue has denied being Purpose Driven, despite requiring S.T.E.P. classes for membership and having followed Rick Warren's transitioning process to the letter. Now, they admit they have been Purpose Driven all along.
lin,
ReplyDeleteMy physical therapist and I were talking about prayer the other day and we discovered we do a lot of "prayer showering" (that may be TMI, but oh well, consider the source!). She said the only quite time she has is in the shower and so she prays then.
I shared that I was healed of a pinched nerve in the shower - isn't just like God to heal me where I'd have to say in a testimony or such "there I was washing my hair and God said, 'Karen, I'm not giving you anymore than you can handle' and my nerve was healed". You'd have to know me in person to actually see the irony.
For the record, when I had my car accident I did injure my C-6 & 7 nerve. The one that God healed for me in the shower is C-5 and that's perfectly healthy! YAY GOD! :)
karen
churchmouse,
ReplyDeleteYou're right about not asking a church about their programs - remember when we were a member of Willow Grove (whatever it's called) for a millisecond, then they recinded the membership because people got in a twist about it?
karen
I know I shouldn't so this, but I'm going to anyway:
ReplyDeleteWHY: When Steve Gaines paid back the 2 direct bills (Colonial Country Club and the Hilton birthday weekend for Donna) to the church, did he pay back the whole amount or just the direct billed amount? Because BBC is a non-profit, when they get direct billed, the bill is TAX FREE. Did Steve Gaines pay back the TAX FREE amount or the whole amount-TAX INCLUDED? If you say yes, show us the proof. If you say no, THAT IS CO-MINGLIING OF FUNDS AND ILLEGAL. Pleas answer the question.
karen
ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself? :)
ReplyDeletePriest Michael,
ReplyDeleteI am not a member of Bellevue Baptist as most on this blog know. I am a victim of the Purpose Driven Movement and continue study it's effects on those exposed to it...as well as the Emergent, Emerging, New Age Movements, etcetera. My pupose is to grow and learen as God would deem me to do so. A watchman, as it were.
If you will indulge me, I do have a couple of questions that I beg to ask you. Reading your posts puts me in this position of confusion. In asking, please know that I do this with the greatest respect for you.
Knowing, myself, a lot of the terminology that the emergents use...would you not expect some confusion from the Christian community as to why you would use the terms, "prayer walk" or "prayer stations"? A prayer walk is a labyrinth and goes back to eastern mysticism, early Roman Catholicism. Prayer stations also go back to that era. With a rush to the Ecumenical Movements we see today, this would prove to be totally confusion. I am also perplexed as to why you would use the wording for you username, "Priest Michael" instead of perhaps "Bro. Michael" or "Rev. Michael". Forgive me, but this sends up red flags.
I haven't personally looked at your website, but will. Please know that I appreciate very much your willingness to share with people like myself and those on this blog. May God bless you is my prayer.
I, too, look forward to your response to All in Grace's question, "priestmichael,
If you would, can you please give me the scriptural references for prayer walking?"
Ima
Karen,
ReplyDeleteRight, they want to get to a certain point in the transition before people realize what is goiing on.
I hope people are calling churches and talking with pastors. It seems that Lifeway is the source of a lot of this Purpose Driven/ Emergent material. Some pastors or church leaders may be using that material and not realizing where they are going. Is that possible?
Thank you Ima, for educating us about Lifeway.
priestmichael,
ReplyDeletePlease make your profile visible! It's required here.
NBBCOF
Priest Michael is Michael Priest... Priest is his last name
ReplyDeleteThe pastor of Bartlett Baptist Church is Michael Priest. Sorry, pastor, that we didn't pick up on that.
ReplyDeletemouse said, "Some pastors or church leaders may be using that material and not realizing where they are going. Is that possible?"
ReplyDeleteComment: Mouse, I have given much thought to this. I always come up with if they are ground in the Word, in Truth, they would not buy it...they would recognize it and rebuke it. Either that, or the 'peer pressure' from their SBC buddies mean more to them than Scripture does. Who are we and we understand the mess? Surely they would recognize good material from bad material?
"Thank you Ima, for educating us about Lifeway."
Reply: We are nothing more than instruments of our Father! I would plead with everybody, however, to boycott Lifeway! If nobody buys this mess, they will straighten up...maybe.
I have a website I am going to post shortly. It is from Bud Press and will help you out in knowing what to look for in Lifeway so that you will all be certain that they are practicing heresy.
Churchmouse said...
ReplyDelete"The pastor of Bartlett Baptist Church is Michael Priest. Sorry, pastor, that we didn't pick up on that."
Comment: Talk about feeling that the cat who swallowed the mouse! I would have done well to have looked at the website.:)
To Bro. Michael Priest! Forgive me for this blunder. I'll bet this isn't the first time this has happened to you? :) I am truly sorry and beg your forgiveness.
Ima
allofgrace
ReplyDeleteThere is no verse that says "thou shalt prayer walk" just at there is no verse that says "thou shalt pray in private." Jesus' teaching to go into your prayer closet and pray in private was not a prohibition against public prayer. It was a prohibition of self-serving, hypocritical prayer. If it was prohibition against public prayer then we better stop praying at church on Sunday :). I understand the concern.
There is no scriptural command, but there is a scriptural principle. Prayer is talking to God. Enoch walked with God. This implies more than simply being a godly man. As Dr. Rogers once preached, Enoch took a walk and was talking with God. Toward the end of the day God said to Enoch, "We are closer to my home than yours. Why don't you just come home with me." Now obvious the Bible does not record that conversation, but Dr. Rogers was making the point that Enoch had an intimate, ongoing fellowship with God.
A part of the worship of Israel in the Old Testament was dancing and priestly parades much like we read of in 2 Samuel 6 (I am not advocating we dance before the Lord. I can't dance and have no rhythm. Also, everyone knows that a dancing foot and a praying knee can't be found on the same leg!) Included in the parade was prayer. It was a time for the people to express to God their gratitude for His deliverance or provision.
Certainly the Bible shows us that God's people prayed on site. The New Testament illustrates that Jesus prayed on site wherever He was. Matthew 19, Mark 10, and Luke 18 tell us He was walking, was stopped to pray for children, touched them and blessed them. Our church prayer walks in the Binghampton area. We have a ministry in that part of town. Our prayer walk involves simply moving from house to house, interacting with the people and then praying with and for them as they express needs.
Luke 5:16 says "But Jesus Himself would often slip away to the wilderness and pray." The pattern of Jesus' life was to pray onsite with insite. Wherever He was He prayed. He did not limit His prayer to a specific place.
Maybe your concept of prayer walking is different from mine. Let me give you another example of how our church prayer walks. We sent a mission team to Guatemala this past fall. The team spent 5 days visiting villages that have had no Christian witness. Half of the team went ahead and prayer walked throught the villages. The other half of the team followed with the Gospel on tape in the language of the people. Jesus told the disciples (Mark 9:29)who tried unsuccessfully to cast out a demon, "This kind cannot come out by anything but prayer." Our prayer walking is always connected to ministry and evangelism. We do not prayer walk for the sake of prayer walking. We pray onsite for needs we are trying to meet or souls to whom we are witnessing.
Your point is well taken, God is not contained in a place, and salvation is of the LORD and in Christ, not a place. Perhaps those facts should be our guide. God is not limited to a prayer closet or the streets of Guatemala.
I am sure there are abuses to prayer walking. I suspect some pastors try to create an emotional response by manipulation or belittle people for not participating in a ministry of the church. We have people in our church who do not want or can't prayer walk. That is fine. We provide a prayer guide to inform them so they can pray specific rather than general prayers. If they are at home praying, great!
There are, however, abuses in preaching, singing, giving, missions, etc. We should never be critical of something simply because someone else has abused it.
Dr. Rev. Michael Priest
ReplyDeleteI like it.
It looks like all bases are covered. (:-)
PriestMichael, thank you for posting. With all due respect, I would like to ask you a couple of questions – nothing earth shattering, but I’m searching for validity.
ReplyDeleteAm I correct in assuming you refer to yourself as PRIEST Michael as in the priesthood of the believer? And, since you freely identified yourself as the pastor of Bartlett Baptist, why would you not use the title of Pastor, Brother, Dr., or your own name?
More importantly, upon re-reading the entire 6th chapter of 1st Samuel, I can find no mention whatever of David doing any type of prayer walk. He sang and danced and made music before the Lord, but nothing is said or even implied about David praying or walking.
Also, in that same Scripture, it appears to me that David’s wife was displeased because David disrobed and danced in front of the handmaidens; and thus, she was jealous, not of David dancing before God, but before the handmaidens. Also, I cannot find where Michal’s childlessness was a result of any sin. If this is not the correct interpretation, would you please enlighten me, sir, and provide scriptural reference?
I would also be most appreciative if you would provide the scriptural references for prayer walking.
Please understand I mean no disrespect to you. I am glad to have you posting here, but I am also looking for scriptural truth to be presented.
I will be happy to pray for your VBS. I prefer the “prayer closet,” on my knees alone with the Lord. After all, there is no time or distance in prayer.
Thank you.
nbbcof
ReplyDeleteForgive my ignorance, but how do I make my profile public?
Ima,
No apology necessary. I once pastored in a strong Catholic community and my name was of great ministry benefit. Our church members would invite their Catholic friends to come hear their "priest." More than a few trusted Christ because my last name opened a door to share the Gospel. I hope my most recent post explains my understanding of prayer walking.
Yes, I understand that many in the emerging church movement, like Mormons, have stolen solid, Christian, biblical words and redefined them. That is my point. Instead of assuming a meaning, investigate how a person uses a word.
I can assure you that I am far from an emerging church pastor. If anyone is uncertain of the emerging philosophy simply read D.A. Carson's book and you will be informed and likely concerned.
Dr. Michael Priest, I do apologize for questioning your name.
ReplyDeleteRespectfully,
Mary
imaresistor said :
ReplyDeleteI am also perplexed as to why you would use the wording for you username, "Priest Michael" instead of perhaps "Bro. Michael" or "Rev. Michael". Forgive me, but this sends up red flags.
Reply: I don't need to answer for Michael but I will say that I have known Dr. Priest for over 20 years. I went to college with him. He has the utmost integrity and Bartlett Baptist is not an emerging/PD church. I have attended there some. Don't be put off by his screen name "Priest Michael"...as pastor of Bartlett Baptist his name is easy to see, his name is Dr. Michael Priest.
I have also known Dr. Danny Sinquefield for over 30 years and the same can be said of him. He has utmost integrity too & Faith isn't a emergent/PD church either.
While these and other churches might use more modern methods of worship, we must be careful to look at the assume the the church has gone astray.
I know both Pastors would welcome any questions you might have about their theology, methods of ministry or whatever you want to know about their churches.
Personally,and I mean this sincerely, I could put myself and my family under either one of these men of Gods' leadership if God lead that way.
Don't just take my word for it...check them out.
Here we go again...I post and then dead silence...silence of the lambs(sheep).
ReplyDeleteHo boy.
preacherdude777,
ReplyDeleteWe went to college together? I am interested in your identity?
To all,
Sorry my name has caused such confusion. When I chose an email address (my email address is what is displayed through my Goggle account) I chose something easy to remember. The effects of aging demanded something simple!
Mary,
Uncover does not mean David was naked. Chapter 6, verse 14 makes it clear David was wearing an ephod. First Chronicles 15 further clarifies. Verse 27 says David wore fine line and an ephod. Verse 29 simply says Michal despised him when she saw him dancing. By comparing both passages, most scholars believe Michal despised David because of some jealousy related to her father, Saul.
So, what does uncovered in 2 Samuel mean? It means he was not wearing the kingly garments, but rather the garments of a priest.
preacher,
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you're here! :)
So a prayer walk around a church or neighborhood (as I know Faith Baptist does on a regular basis) is an okay thing and labrinyth(SP?) walking or prayer walking that churchmouse refers to in her earlier post is "contemplative prayer" and is based on Eastern religions. Am I right?
Does anyone know if Bellevue or any other area churches indulge in "Christian Yoga"? Just wondering...
karen
By the way, notice the name change. No more priestmichael, but Michaeldadof4!
ReplyDeleteMichael....I will give you a hint...we borrowed my girlfriend's car & jumped the railroad tracks in BM. Ring a bell?
ReplyDeleteI always wondered when you and I jumped the tracks in her car, we always had a soft landing. I jumped the tracks with her and we had the worst possible landing and the muffler fell off. She wasn't very understanding....go figure.
I might change my name too:
ReplyDeletePreacherdude, father of one..loved by all.
Ok. I will keep working on it.
You mean the A Team is right here in Memphis in full force? Go figure. Thanks for the kind words.
ReplyDeleteIn the previous thread,
ReplyDeleteChurchmouse said...
Speaking of discernment, I am looking at websites of different Baptist Churches in the area and have found them to be very telling. Do you see any red flag here?
Take the PrayerJourney of XXXXXX
(Chruch Name)
The Prayer Journey Begins
Station One - Ask the Lord to Prepare Your Heart Station Two - Pray for Faith
Station Three - Pray for the churches in our area
Station Four - Pray for the Places of Employment
Station Five - Pray for those within your sphere of influence
Station Six - Pray for the Nation
Station Seven - Pray for God's Glory and Renown to spread rapidly
Station Eight - Be Still
Station Nine - Pray for All the Nations of the World
Station Ten - Lord, Let me be the answer
Ok, call me undiscerning, but I'm not seeing anything in the specific content of this that would be bad to pray for, or that conflicts with Scripture. Please fill me in on the red flags you see in this.
why,
ReplyDeletewaiting for my tongue lashing - I mean answer - from you.
I have another question for you since you're here: Why can't I ask questions about the leadership at BBC without getting my head bit off all the time? You seem to be okay with everything Steve does, but yet you verbally attack anyone who DARES to question what he does? He went over a 41" tall fence with 3 other "seasoned" men and you're okay with that, but when Piglet states facts about credit cards and other issues, you want to throw her out of the church on her tail. How is that possible that you can be so blind to one, yet so HIGHLY VIGILANT to others?
Just remember Proverbs 15:1 - A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
karen :)
Preacherdude said to imaresistor:
ReplyDelete"Reply: I don't need to answer for Michael but I will say that I have known Dr. Priest for over 20 years. I went to college with him. He has the utmost integrity and Bartlett Baptist is not an emerging/PD church. I have attended there some. Don't be put off by his screen name "Priest Michael"...as pastor of Bartlett Baptist his name is easy to see, his name is Dr. Michael Priest.”
Reply: Easy to see? I have never driven by Bartlett Baptist and most likely never will. I have asked Dr. Priest’s forgiveness and he has forgiven me for not understanding his name. I truly feel bad about that. I don’t know what else to say about it. I am truly sorry.
“I have also known Dr. Danny Sinquefield for over 30 years and the same can be said of him. He has utmost integrity too & Faith isn't a emergent/PD church either.”
Reply: I have never heard of Dr. Danny Sinquefield and have not mentioned the name of this blog. I am a little perplexed why you address this to me? It’s okay, but I think you might have gotten somebody else’s remarks mixed up with mine.
While these and other churches might use more modern methods of worship, we must be careful to look at the assume the the church has gone astray.
Reply: I certain don’t mean to insinuate that this church is astray. However, I do believe this church or any other church should avoid anything that would cause confusion…which might give cause to believe they might be even remotely using emerging methodology. I will say that and not offer apology for doing so. Anything which might mislead the public/community is not a good thing.
“I know both Pastors would welcome any questions you might have about their theology, methods of ministry or whatever you want to know about their churches.”
Reply: Yes I believe that too. Dr. Priest has responded to me and I appreciate that. He seems very open to any questions. I would not hesitate to ask him anything…and have. I also would not hesitate to visit his church. He seems very open to dialogue. In fact, I was just thinking earlier today when responding to his post how nice it would be if Steve Gaines would open dialogue on this blog with all of the bloggers.
“Personally, and I mean this sincerely, I could put myself and my family under either one of these men of Gods' leadership if God lead that way.”
Reply: Sounds like a great thing to do…why don’t you visit Bartlett Baptist yourself? That is, if you don’t pastor a church.
“Don't just take my word for it...check them out."
Reply: I have…
Then Pastordude added:
“Here we go again...I post and then dead silence...silence of the lambs(sheep).
Ho boy.”
Reply: Believe it or not Pastordude, I have not been sitting here trying to figure out what to say to your brilliant post. Actually my husband came in for lunch and I fixed a quick lunch for us. That took a while. I don’t just sit here at the computer all the time.
BTW, your username implies that you are a pastor? Is that true? If so what churches have you pastured? Have you even been on staff at Bellevue?
junk:
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if this will help, but I found this for you to look at:
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/stationsofthecross.htm
Based upon what was on the church website that churchmouse referenced, the fact that other relgions (Catholics, Lutherans) use Stations of the Cross as part of their worship. I'm not sure what purpose it would serve in the Baptist church except to expand the "worship experience" of people who come to the Baptist church from other religious backgrounds.
While in itself, a prayer walk isn't a bad thing, but it becomes a bad thing when churches start becoming like the world instead of being set apart from the world. People today are looking for spirituallity, but that doesn't necessarily mean a relationship with Jesus Christ. When this type of prayer is offered or even required by a church, it can't be a good thing. For baby Christians who see the words "prayer walk" and do not have the tools to discern what kind of activity it is, they can get wrapped in the contemplative/labrinyth prayer walks that are becoming prevalent.
Prayer walks that are walking around the neighborhood or around a particular church should be called something else as to not cause confusion, right? I know BBC has "watchmen on the wall" - isn't that sort of a prayer walk, but not a contemplative prayer issue?
Am I making sense to anyone, but myself? :)
“I have also known Dr. Danny Sinquefield for over 30 years and the same can be said of him. He has utmost integrity too & Faith isn't a emergent/PD church either.”
ReplyDeleteReply: I have never heard of Dr. Danny Sinquefield and have not mentioned the name of this blog. I am a little perplexed why you address this to me? It’s okay, but I think you might have gotten somebody else’s remarks mixed up with mine.
IMA,
I mentioned Dr. Sinquefield, churchmouse mentioned Faith Baptist. I think Preacherdude got confused; don't take it personally. As you can see now, lots of folks wondered about Dr. Priest's name then it became clear. No worries! :)
Dr. Priest, thank you for your response.
ReplyDeleteI didn’t mean to imply that David was naked, I knew he wore a linen ephod (II Samuel 6:14), but it was obvious that he was not wearing his usual or traditional garments. I just read 1st Chronicles 15 and it does clear up the matter of Michal’s jealousy (vs 29). Thanks for the scripture lesson! I do appreciate it. :-)
I understand and accept your explanation of prayer walking; however, I must question the use of the term “prayer stations.” I haven’t been to your church’s website and I don’t know if you use this term, but I did see it on Faith Baptist’s website.
As one who spent many years deeply and sincerely involved in Roman Catholicism before I was convicted of my sin, repented on my knees before God, and was saved by grace alone for the glory of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, I admit to being more than a little sensitive to terms that have been so long associated with Catholicism. And there seems to be a lot of that coming from the emerging movement, which has its roots in the Roman church’s ecumenical movement.
Thanks again for your reply. And welcome to our forum. Please continue to post here.
And to be clear, I prefer my “prayer closet” but I pray anywhere and anytime that I can. I’ve done some of my most serious praying right here at my keyboard as I’ve read the sad stories that have happened to my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Thanks again,
Mary
imaresistor,
ReplyDeleteThe opponents of the Gospel stole words of the church and redefined them, but biblical writers never resisted using them. They simply informed the churches of the true meaning and kept right on going. If a church embraced a practice of the world I would agree with you. In this case, the world has embraced a word of the church. Why should the church give up a phrase that perfectly describes a God-honoring practice?
Your logic, followed to its end, leads to some difficult problems. On any given Sunday a person can turn on the television and watch someone "preach." The false teacher has absconded with a good, biblical word. Should true preachers of the one and only Gospel find another word to describe what they do each Sunday so as to cut down on confusion? Joel Osteen does not preach, but that is what he, and many others, call his weekly activity of oral self-image massaging. By the way, Joel Osteen is only one of many. My biblical conviction is that if a messenger is not delivering a message based upon a text of Scripture in its context and expressing the original intent of the Holy Spirit Who inspired the text then he is not preaching, but rather talking. Those false teachers are going to keep using the word "preach." Should we stop?
junk99mail said,
ReplyDeleteOk, call me undiscerning, but I'm not seeing anything in the specific content of this that would be bad to pray for, or that conflicts with Scripture. Please fill me in on the red flags you see in this.
junk99,
It is not the specific content that is troubling, but the ritualistic process of it. It indicates the presence of Emergent Church theology. Did you look at the link?
imaresistor said:
ReplyDeleteThen Pastordude added:
“Here we go again...I post and then dead silence...silence of the lambs(sheep).
Ho boy.”
Reply: Believe it or not Pastordude, I have not been sitting here trying to figure out what to say to your brilliant post. Actually my husband came in for lunch and I fixed a quick lunch for us. That took a while. I don’t just sit here at the computer all the time.
MY REPLY: This was not directed at you resistor. It is just a joke that I put out there when it gets quiet.
Please forgive me if I hurt your feelings. I am sorry you took my comments wrong. I wasn't chastising you but just making a comment.
You tell to visit Bartlett myself...like I said in my post...I already have.
Please lighten up and don't take things so personal.
googly moogly. Hope you and your husband had a good lunch.
Mary,
ReplyDeleteNow knowing your background in Catholicism, I understand your concern about the word "station." The nature of our prayer walks really do not require a term like "station."
More important than the term used is the concept and practice advocated. I have never been on a prayer walk at Faith Baptist Church, but I would suspect that a "station" is nothing more than a designated spot with information concerning the specific item of prayer, i.e., if praying for government leaders, a list of names of those serving in government positions.
karen said:
ReplyDeleteIMA,
I mentioned Dr. Sinquefield, churchmouse mentioned Faith Baptist. I think Preacherdude got confused; don't take it personally. As you can see now, lots of folks wondered about Dr. Priest's name then it became clear. No worries! :)
Reply: Everyone knows I get confused because no one stays on the topic and & I skim read. I am also getting old so I make mistakes. Please forgive me for any problems my old age has caused.
Karen said...
ReplyDeletechurchmouse,
You're right about not asking a church about their programs - remember when we were a member of Willow Grove (whatever it's called) for a millisecond, then they recinded the membership because people got in a twist about it?
karen
-------------
Karen, according to ima, the Willowcreek Assoc. sometimes removes a church from their membership list that all have access to without actually removing the membership. This is to appease (deceive?) the church's membership that protest the membership.
I invite you to read this piece by Roger Oakland. Note the reference to 'prayer stations'. It would confound the wisest to have this advertised at a church and not think something was amiss.
ReplyDeleteEastern religion, mysticism, Eastern mysticism, The early Roman Catholic church, Vintage Christianity, The Vintage Church, The Ecumenical Movement, The Ecumenical Church, Ecumenicism, should give rise to any Christian to questions. Don't apologize for being a Watchman. Everybody should be a watchman. The trend today as I see it is towards the Ecumenical Movement...back towards the early Roman Catholic Church. A oneness. (There is a movement today in Memphis and other cities towards just such a thing.) If I can find it I will post it.
Oops...forgot to insert this: here it is:
ReplyDeleteOakland Piece
Michael,
ReplyDeleteOral self-image massaging - that will get many screens sprayed today! That was hysterical! But very valid - it's true, why should we (as Christians) have to change the names of things because others have "bastardized" their meanings? Wonderful point.
Mary, my dad grew up Catholic so I'm right there with you on the "stations" verbiage. People are looking for spirtuality or doing something to make them "feel" something in their worship, so you're right to be sensitive to "stations" being used.
Preacher,
Googly Moogly? Right back at ya! Oh and since you took out a muffler on the Bartlett railroad tracks, I'll admit to bottoming out a 4 door Nova containing 8 goofy teenagers on "thrill hill". Can ya top that?
karen
32,
ReplyDeleteYup - I knew that. It was said that BBC was in the Willowcreek Assn. so we could use the copyrighted music.
karen
4years wrote:
ReplyDelete"Priest Michael is Michael Priest... Priest is his last name"
I don't care if he's Little Mary Sunshine (and no, I didn't know who he was), he still needed to make his profile visible -- which I see he's now done. Thank you, Mr. Priest, and welcome!
karen said:
ReplyDeletePreacher,
Googly Moogly? Right back at ya! Oh and since you took out a muffler on the Bartlett railroad tracks, I'll admit to bottoming out a 4 door Nova containing 8 goofy teenagers on "thrill hill". Can ya top that?
Reply: Well, this car was a 78 Datsun B210. I weighted a bit more than Michael did, still do-I have increased the distance between our weights by the way, so that little car could fly!
I did almost,and I mean almost, put my moms 78 Olsmobile into the Missisippi River. I made the stupid mistake of going on the cobblestones with ice on them. I slid all the way down to the river to the bottom 12 feet. It was dry there because the river was pounding that area, I guess. I prayed all the way down the bank and when the car hit the uniced cobblestones, it spun around and stopped...facing the river! I drove along the river until I got to a driveway where they were loading a barge. I was praising God for His protection.
How do you tell your mom that her car is in the river??? I almost had to make that call.
I don't care if he's Little Mary Sunshine (and no, I didn't know who he was), he still needed to make his profile visible -- which I see he's now done. Thank you, Mr. Priest, and welcome!
ReplyDeleteHey, watch out with the Little Mary Sunshine comment. I am a Baptist pastor, not Methodist!
Thanks for the nice reception.
"It was said that BBC was in the Willowcreek Assn. so we could use the copyrighted music."
ReplyDeleteThing is...I don't know of any music I'd want to play or sing that badly! Do you?
No, Ima, I don't. Besides, why were they so worried about saving the money for royalties? It is the only area I know of where saving money was an issue.
ReplyDeleteMouse,
ReplyDeleteI think you have a point.
Michaeldadof4 said, "Thanks for the nice reception."
ReplyDeleteComment: Nice reception? I'd say you are one brave man! :)
churchmouse,
ReplyDeleteExactly my point - they want to save money on royalties, but spend money like crazy elsewhere.
Have you noticed lately how many things at BBC that used to be free now have a cost attached?
karen
Karen...don't think I am taking anything personal? Sorry it is coming over that way. Will try to cool it. :)
ReplyDeletePreacherdude said, "Please lighten up and don't take things so personal.googly moogly. Hope you and your husband had a good lunch."
Reply:Oooookayyy! Will do my best. Googly moogly? You got me there. We did have a good lunch...chicken salad and such. I make my own of course.
By the way, while I have enjoyed my time on the blog today, the only reason I came in the first place was because a pastor friend alerted me that the church I pastor was mentioned on this blog. My purpose was to clear up any misunderstanding.
ReplyDeleteI too have performed a mufflerectomy. In my case it was on a 73 Camaro and it was in fact a mufflerectomy performed on duel exhausts simultaneously. I must confess I let out an expletive when it happened.
ReplyDeleteThe take away lesson is that you should always run for cover when you hear a red neck teenager utter the words “watch this”.
Michael -- stop by as often as you can.
ReplyDeleteMichaeldadof4,
ReplyDeleteThank you for joining our discussion. We hope you come back. If you are what you say-- you are what we are looking for.
I hope you come back and let us get to know you a little better. Trust is in short supply here. If you understand that, you won't be so badly offended by what you read here.
Hey all,
ReplyDeleteSOTL is on her way home and should check in with us late tonight. Sounds like the cruise was wonderful and a good time was had by all who were fortunate enough to get to go!
Michael...and I was just about to reply to the post about preaching and prayer stations! So, you are leaving us now?
ReplyDeletebtw...didn't think that was a very good analogy.
Michael...oh, and I hope you read my Oakland piece that I inserted.
ReplyDeletebinwondering,
ReplyDeleteA double mufflerectomy - now that's talent?
What say you about getting a Jeep frame stuck in a snow drift at the Raleigh Springs Mall? Talent or no? :)
Ima,
Hope that chicken salad had apples and grapes in it - my favorite!
karen
Michaeldadof4 said...
ReplyDeleteHey, watch out with the Little Mary Sunshine comment. I am a Baptist pastor, not Methodist!
Reply:
Well THAT one got a screen spew for sure! Way to go, Father Michael… uh, I mean Dr. Priest.
LOL ;-)
Mary
Michaeldadof4 said...
ReplyDeleteHey, watch out with the Little Mary Sunshine comment. I am a Baptist pastor, not Methodist!
Reply: If you were a female methodist pastor, Steve Gaines will cut you a $25,000 check for your liberal church! Just ask 1st Methodist downtown.
Karen,
ReplyDeleteSorry...apples and walnuts. However, at our home-church Wednesday evening prayer service last night, I had chicken salad with grapes and pecans. I love our home-church prayer services.
Ima
Every once in a while, I am privileged to hear/see a minister whom I think is truly blessed. In more recent times, there are three who come to mind, so I am more than blessed. One is Paul Washer and I hope you all have been blessed to watch his DVD on sermonaudio.com of the Shocking Youth Message. If you haven't, do yourself the honor. Or any of his other messages. The next of course is Jeff Noblit. You can also get some of his messages from sermonaudio, but most of his are available from http://www.fbcms.com. Now, to the last one I am going to mention. I just accidentally ran across this on sermonaudio.com and it is wonderful. I am talking about David Cloud and his message on DVD at sermon audio entitled Roman Catholicism, Past and Present. Do yourselves a favor and watch
ReplyDeletethis
imaresistor said...
ReplyDeleteI invite you to read this piece by Roger Oakland. Note the reference to 'prayer stations'. It would confound the wisest to have this advertised at a church and not think something was amiss.
Eastern religion, mysticism, Eastern mysticism, The early Roman Catholic church, Vintage Christianity, The Vintage Church, The Ecumenical Movement, The Ecumenical Church, Ecumenicism, should give rise to any Christian to questions. Don't apologize for being a Watchman. Everybody should be a watchman. The trend today as I see it is towards the Ecumenical Movement...back towards the early Roman Catholic Church. A oneness. (There is a movement today in Memphis and other cities towards just such a thing.) If I can find it I will post it.
Reply:
Ima, I’m currently working on a manuscript on the subject and I’ll be happy to discuss this with you at a later time if you wish. I have much to do right now and this is not a topic that can be easily digested on the run – which is the only way I’ve managed to be on the blog today. And you are correct about the Ecumenical Movement.
Mary
Mary said, "I’ll be happy to discuss this with you at a later time if you wish..."
ReplyDeleteI'd consider it an honor...email me any time at your convenience.
NBBC wrote
ReplyDelete4years wrote:
"Priest Michael is Michael Priest... Priest is his last name"
I don't care if he's Little Mary Sunshine (and no, I didn't know who he was), he still needed to make his profile visible -- which I see he's now done. Thank you, Mr. Priest, and welcome!
Reply:
NBBC... No need to be so edgy (sp).... I wasn't trying to be a smart alek with my response. I actually did a little research when he first posted. I wanted to see if maybe he was Little "Miss" Mary sunshine instead of coming out of the gate blasting like some did.
Excuse me if I ruffled any feathers! ;-)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"Priest Michael is Michael Priest... Priest is his last name"
ReplyDeleteWhew! Thank YOU. And you have been most gracious about this name thing. You really ARE a 'Priest'. :o)
priestmichael wrote: "There are, however, abuses in preaching, singing, giving, missions, etc. We should never be critical of something simply because someone else has abused it."
It is good that people ask and you respond. Some of us have been through some very UnBiblical churches. So the questions or concerns may sound like criticism when in fact they are waving red flags.
So much scripture has been abused or omitted that it is healthy to question everything and search the scriptures.
On staff at my former mega we were told by the new 12 year old (smile) associate pastor, (of the associate pastor...no kidding) who wanted to do a 'stations of the cross' thing but make it look and feel totally 'unCatholic'. Those were his words.
That was a big hairy job for us PR/Marketing types. But I am sure you see where I am going with this...These things are 'secretly' creeping in. We MUST question.
I have since repented and am outta there.
Preaacherdudewhoislovedbyall wrote:
"Googly Moogly? Right back at ya! Oh and since you took out a muffler on the Bartlett railroad tracks, I'll admit to bottoming out a 4 door Nova containing 8 goofy teenagers on "thrill hill". Can ya top that?
Reply: Well, this car was a 78 Datsun B210."
I only want to know one thing: Did they have 8 tracks?
I apologize, Mary. I wasn't on edge at all and didn't think you were being a smart aleck. I meant no offense to you or to Mr. Priest. I was merely pointing out that everyone needs to make his or her profile visible to post. I guess my attempt to lighten the mood was missed by some. Again, I apologize.
ReplyDeletelin...aren't you the funny one this afternoon! :)
ReplyDeleteWe could use some humor!
churchmouse said
ReplyDeleteUntil very recently, our pastor and the leadership at Bellevue has denied being Purpose Driven, despite requiring S.T.E.P. classes for membership and having followed Rick Warren's transitioning process to the letter. Now, they admit they have been Purpose Driven all along.
Piglet says:
Wait, did I miss a day of postings or what? Who admitted this and when?
I thought I was keeping up....
allofgrace said...
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure there's anything inherently wrong with it, but for me personally, I think it's wise to avoid doing what scripture does not prescribe
Hmmmmm....does that include blogging? :)
Karen said to why
ReplyDeletebut when Piglet states facts about credit cards and other issues, you want to throw her out of the church on her tail. How is that possible that you can be so blind to one, yet so HIGHLY VIGILANT to others?
Piglet says:
Oh, thanks Karen, for your coming to my defense! You know I love ya'.
But just so we don't get on the credit card jag - I never mentioned credit cards - only the direct billing and other various questionable items.
Why wants us to drop this while the culprits are hiding the books behind their backs and won't let us look. He thinks we are too slow to get the implications of this...
Lin said...
ReplyDeletePersonally, I like prayer 'driving'. I am alone...closing the eyes is not optional, though. :o)
So, if I pray when driving, closing my eyes is mandatory?? Now that's living by faith!!
WHY
ReplyDeleteIf you are in Coombs office at this very moment demanding that he surrender those financials - I apologize and am so proud of you. :)
Karen said...
ReplyDeleteMy physical therapist and I were talking about prayer the other day and we discovered we do a lot of "prayer showering"
You all don't want to know where I read my Bible and pray each morning. And I don't want to give that particular activity a name with the word "prayer" in front of it!
junk,
ReplyDeleteI think you knew what I was referring to, but just in case...what I meant had to do with worship...and I stand by what I said...in the OT men were put to death for offering strange fire...that which God did not prescribe. If you wanna get fast and loose with everything God didn't say you can get down a wrong road real quick. I think we live in a time where men trifle with God and His word as though it doesn't matter...especially to God...but the Scriptures paint a different picture.
Piglet says:
ReplyDeleteWait, did I miss a day of postings or what? Who admitted this and when?
I thought I was keeping up....
Reply,
A family member of mine called the church to ask about the classes required for church membership recently. She spoke to Webb Williams, who told her that we had had the discovery classes for quite some time. He said for a while they were combined into one class, but now, they were divided into three classes, aka Warren style. He told her BBC basing this on a book called the Purpose Driven Church by Rick Warren. He told her we were a Purpose Driven Church, and had been since ??? (some years)
churchmouse
ReplyDeleteI'm amazed that anyone has admitted to this. But it certainly makes sense.
If I thought anyone would talk to me I would want to call Webb and ask him what he thinks about the direction Warren is moving ...or if he even knows.....
Piglet...they know where Warren IS now and where he is headed...
ReplyDelete...but as Warren says, 'you can't argue with success'...
...so this is how they plan to bring up the numbers. They got rid of the 'dead' weight. You all need to realize that they are very happy you all are gone. You see...
Unchurched Harry is out there waiting to be entertained.
Karen said...
ReplyDeleteFor baby Christians who see the words "prayer walk" and do not have the tools to discern what kind of activity it is, they can get wrapped in the contemplative/labrinyth prayer walks that are becoming prevalent.
Prayer walks that are walking around the neighborhood or around a particular church should be called something else as to not cause confusion, right? I know BBC has "watchmen on the wall" - isn't that sort of a prayer walk, but not a contemplative prayer issue?
Am I making sense to anyone, but myself? :)
Thanks for your response. You make sense to me. :) I appreciate the desire to be watchful and on guard when seeing words that are used as buzzwords in certain movements. Back in the 80s, during the SBC controversy over liberalism in seminaries and certain pulpits, it was common for those who called themselves "moderates" to say that they believed that the Bible contained the Word of God and that it was authoritative in all matters of faith. While those words sound right on the surface, some were using them to mean that only parts of the Bible are God's Word and that we shouldn't expect it to be accurate in matters of science or history, only "spiritual truths."
However, I completely agree with Dr. Priest's take on this matter. We shouldn't have to avoid using words with good and valid Christian meanings that convey biblical concepts because others abuse those words. The Bible does contain God's Word and it is authoritative in matters of faith ... we shouldn't avoid affirming those truths just because some have used those phrases as a way to cover up the fact that they did not also believe that all of the Bible is God's Word and that it is inerrant in all that it says.
Churchmouse said...
It is not the specific content that is troubling, but the ritualistic process of it. It indicates the presence of Emergent Church theology. Did you look at the link?
Thanks for your response. I should have gotten caught up on this thread before posting my question about what was wrong with the content, then I would have known what the concerns were. But as I said above, I am squarely in line with what Dr. Priest has said on this matter. I think some on this blog would disagree on this, and I do love them and greatly respect their opinions, and I realize where they are coming from based on their own personal experiences. And I very much appreciate the calls to be on guard against false doctrine and unbiblical practices -- but I also believe we must be careful not to react too strongly to the words being used without first learning the intent of those using them.
Karen said...
ReplyDeleteWhat say you about getting a Jeep frame stuck in a snow drift at the Raleigh Springs Mall? Talent or no? :)
I know you weren't asking me, but I say that takes either great talent or having been in Memphis for a lot of years (or maybe both), since snow drifts in these parts are few and far between!
allofgrace said...
ReplyDeletejunk, I think you knew what I was referring to, but just in case...what I meant had to do with worship...
Butttt... isn't everything we do supposed to acts of worship?
Just messing with ya, friend ... I knew what you meant. But thanks for the clarification in case my sarcastic humor was confusing to anyone.
junk99mail said:
ReplyDeleteAnd I very much appreciate the calls to be on guard against false doctrine and unbiblical practices -- but I also believe we must be careful not to react too strongly to the words being used without first learning the intent of those using them.
Reply:
Junk, I had posted last night that I was looking at Baptist Church websites in this area.This was my post about Bartlett Baptist that drew a firestorm:
"Bartlett Baptist has a prayer walk posted on their events calendar."
It was an honest post. Do you think that was an over reaction? I believe the discussion that followed was enlightening and beneficial. ???
Churchmouse said...
ReplyDeleteIt was an honest post. Do you think that was an over reaction? I believe the discussion that followed was enlightening and beneficial. ???
Oh, no....I don't think you overreacted at all, and I didn't mean to imply that you had. I apologize for not being more clear. It is good that you pointed it out and I agree that the discussion was beneficial. I was just throwing in the comment about being careful not to overeact to words as my own little lagniappe, for the benefit of all who blog here, for what it's worth.
junk wrote:
ReplyDelete"I was just throwing in the comment about being careful not to overeact to words as my own little lagniappe, for the benefit of all who blog here, for what it's worth."
NASS pauses to consult a dictionary....
Churchmouse...
ReplyDeleteYou did not overreact at all. To the contrary, you did what you should have done and what we all need to do. What the term 'prayer walk' might mean to one...perhaps praying while one walks would take on an entirely different meaning to another...which would mean praying in the contemplative prayer ritualistic mode and/or the emergent ritualistic mode implied by Dan Kimball, an emergent guru, in his book, "The Emergent Church", which is/was available at Lifeway, if it hasn't been taken off the shelves by people protesting its presence there. Christian people cannot take for granted something may be politically correct just because the wording used to mean something else or vice versa. It is our duty to God as His children to be certain that what is being conveyed is of Him and not the world. You did good.
I just overreacted to lagniappe...
ReplyDeleteBin Wondering said "The take away lesson is that you should always run for cover when you hear a red neck teenager utter the words “watch this”.
ReplyDeleteTHANK YOU for this memory!
How wise you are.........
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteJunk: However, I completely agree with Dr. Priest's take on this matter. We shouldn't have to avoid using words with good and valid Christian meanings that convey biblical concepts because others abuse those words. The Bible does contain God's Word and it is authoritative in matters of faith ... we shouldn't avoid affirming those truths just because some have used those phrases as a way to cover up the fact that they did not also believe that all of the Bible is God's Word and that it is inerrant in all that it says.
ReplyDeleteREPLY:
Junk, while I could and did agree with Dr. Priest on the terminology of prayer walking, I could not agree with him (and he didn’t really put forth an argument) about “prayer stations.”
Here is the danger: “Prayer Stations” have been used in Roman Catholicism for centuries – in abbeys, monasteries, at RCC shrines, etc. It has never been terminology associated with the Christian church, so why should Christians adopt it? Surely the born again sheep are not so dumb that we cannot think up a proper and acceptable term of our own without having to borrow from pagans.
Mary
Mary said,
ReplyDeleteSurely the born again sheep are not so dumb that we cannot think up a proper and acceptable term of our own without having to borrow from pagans.
oc says:
Mary, did you have a Christmas tree last year? Just sayin'.
New BBC Open Forum said...
ReplyDeleteI apologize, Mary. I wasn't on edge at all and didn't think you were being a smart aleck. I meant no offense to you or to Mr. Priest. I was merely pointing out that everyone needs to make his or her profile visible to post. I guess my attempt to lighten the mood was missed by some. Again, I apologize.
REPLY:
NASS, I think you have me confused with someone else. I didn't make any type of comment that implied you were on edge.
Why the need to call it a different name if it's the same thing?
ReplyDeleteIf I hit my thumb with a hammer and yell, "SUGAR!" -- isn't it the same as saying ... well, something else? My grandmother always said it was.
oc says:
ReplyDeleteMary, did you have a Christmas tree last year? Just sayin'.
REPLY:
Yes, I did, right next to our Nativity scene. Our children are all grown but they grew up knowing the Nativity was the real meaning of Christmas and the Christmas tree was just for fun.
Now, back to my work or I'll never get through. :-)
maybejustmaybe,
ReplyDeleteIf I hit my thumb with a hammer and yell, "SUGAR!" -- isn't it the same as saying ... well, something else? My grandmother always said it was.
oc says: Hmmmm. Have your grandmother put the 'other' in her coffee and see if that's different.
Think about it.
Nass: Good to hear SOTL is on her way home. Funny little tidbit....guess who I saw today?
ReplyDeleteA CErtain person was riding coasters at Six Flags in Atlanta! It sure was hot here in Atlanta...no ocean breezes or sea air.......
OC -
ReplyDeleteGood one.
Mary wrote:
ReplyDelete"NASS, I think you have me confused with someone else. I didn't make any type of comment that implied you were on edge."
Oops. I meant "4years." I apologize to "4years." :-)
mjm wrote:
ReplyDelete"If I hit my thumb with a hammer and yell, 'SUGAR!' -- isn't it the same as saying ... well, something else? My grandmother always said it was."
So what did Grandma say when she hit her thumb with a hammer?
Hockey.
ReplyDeleteMary said,
ReplyDeleteSurely the born again sheep are not so dumb that we cannot think up a proper and acceptable term of our own without having to borrow from pagans.
oc says:
Mary, did you have a Christmas tree last year? Just sayin'.
Mary's REPLY:
Yes, I did, right next to our Nativity scene. Our children are all grown but they grew up knowing the Nativity was the real meaning of Christmas and the Christmas tree was just for fun.
Now, back to my work or I'll never get through. :-)
Oc asks:
what do you call the days of the week? I'm not trying to be 'obnoxious', just trying to make a point.
Mary said, "Here is the danger: “Prayer Stations” have been used in Roman Catholicism for centuries – in abbeys, monasteries, at RCC shrines, etc. It has never been terminology associated with the Christian church, so why should Christians adopt it? Surely the born again sheep are not so dumb that we cannot think up a proper and acceptable term of our own without having to borrow from pagans."
ReplyDeleteComment: Yes, this is all true. However, again...in the terminology upheavel we have today, actually a prayer walk is also a labyrinth. And in Dan Kimball's book, The Emergent Church...a prayer walk means something other than walking while praying. Thing is...it can be confusing to people who do understand it;can you imagine how confusing it is to parents you might extend an invitation to-to bring their children to VBS who normally don't even come to church, perhaps the unsaved? Seems to me the best thing to do would be just say it like it is intended...Come pray with us as we walk through our VBS area. Wouldn't that work? Don't say come to our prayer walk...in today's world people will avoid you just because they think there is something wrong there. Have I made my point yet?
ima,
ReplyDeleteI'm right there with you on this. I think the danger in the term "prayer walk" is most prevalent in babuy Christians or for people who honestly don't know the difference. If I didn't know the difference and say I had attended a "prayer walk" with some friends and we walked and prayed. Then someone else invited me to a prayer walk and it involved stations or a labryinth. Because I didn't know and the terms were the same, I would not know that they were 2 totally different experiences with 2 totally different agendas.
Like I said before, it's like using the word "gay". If you want a "gay old time" in Memphis and a "gay old time" in San Francisco, you probably are looking at 2 totally different experiences.
As my friend, OC says "think about it".
karen
Churchmouse,
ReplyDeleteI don't feel you overreacted and I think the conversation it spawned today was great!
I learned a lot.
karen
Don't Ride With Strangers aka Lynn said...
ReplyDeleteIn January 2004, people would at least come by and say hi if you were new. Now...If your not in the clique, your out of luck. For me, it didn't really take long for me to realize I would never fit in. At first I thought it was me because I am so shy and reserved. As more time went on, the more I realized it was the people there instead. And when I would be talking to someone, often, the person I was talking to would turn to someone else and start talking to them as if I wasn't even there.
Lynn,
I was hoping to speak with you some on the beach trip. I'm sorry you decided not to go.
We've never met, but I've seen your posts here. Years ago I felt the same way you feel right now, but I decided to change that. Instead of waiting for people to come to me, I started approaching them. Instead of going to the Career events for myself, I started going to be a blessing to others. When I did, I was able to overcome my shyness and finally fit in. If I hadn't made that choice, I'd still be on the fringe and feel like a border citizen.
The department is no different now than it has ever been. Cliques have always been the biggest complaint in the single adult ministry, but it's just human nature. It's up to you to find a place where you fit, and you shouldn't give up until you do.
At times I even felt that even the leadership of the Career ministry was making fun of me.
There was an instance back in 2004 when I had a roommate put sunblock on my back because I couldn't reach. That became a running joke for a year. I'm all for laughing at mistakes....but geeze, sometimes the laughing felt more like ridicule than anything else.
Lynn, if this was a bad experience for you then I apologize on behalf of the department. It was not directed at you personally, but I do understand that it could have felt that way. I remember the event very well, but I had no idea who was involved. The joke was that one man asked another man to put sunblock on his back, which is funny to an immature group like Career 1.
My advice to you is to not give up, but to go back with a servant's spirit and strive to minister to the needs of others in the department. It worked for me, and it will work for you too.
Karen: Since I'm just able to read the blog at night this week, I must say I thought todays conversation was informative and conversational as opposed to being confrontational. I really appreciate Dr. Priest stopping by. I also think a good point was made regarding semantics. Several years ago I did a study on cults and one thing that was stressed over and over again was that the same words mean different things so you have to clarify your terms. In today's world, we just have to be careful.
ReplyDeleteI have learned alot today as well. And I really appreciate Pastor Mike dropping by to clarify things.
ReplyDeletenevermetastranger,
ReplyDeleteE-mail me :).
Along the same lines as using words with "new" meanings is the practice of telling the truth in such a way as to deceive. Some at BBC have said "I didn't lie" and that is true, but they did deceive and that is wrong. That, too, is a lack of integrity.
ReplyDeleteStayed: You are exactly right.
ReplyDeleteDid anyone else go to GBC last Sunday night and enjoy the hymn singing as much as I did? That must have been the 1st and last verses of about 10 hymns. SO refreshing!
ReplyDeleteNever Met A Stranger said...
ReplyDelete"Lynn, if this was a bad experience for you then I apologize on behalf of the department. It was not directed at you personally, but I do understand that it could have felt that way. I remember the event very well, but I had no idea who was involved. The joke was that one man asked another man to put sunblock on his back, which is funny to an immature group like Career 1."
It wasn't a bad experience per se....Heck, I even laughed about it. But it was funny for a couple months. but the joke kept going off and on for a year or so.
And there is a change in the Career group that I have been able to sense. There are some who know exactly how I feel about Gaines. Sometimes I have felt isolated because I am vocal about my dislike of Gaines behavior as pastor.
Mary said...
ReplyDeleteHere is the danger: “Prayer Stations” have been used in Roman Catholicism for centuries – in abbeys, monasteries, at RCC shrines, etc. It has never been terminology associated with the Christian church, so why should Christians adopt it? Surely the born again sheep are not so dumb thatsti we cannot think up a proper and acceptable term of our own without having to borrow from pagans.
Although I am not Catholic and have serious disagreements with Catholic theology and practices, it seems a bit extreme to me to imply that Catholics are not Christians and to call them pagans.
Just sayin'...
(P.S. Interestingly, but not totally relevant, my Word Verification for this post is paxtv)
imaresistor said...
ReplyDeleteDon't say come to our prayer walk...in today's world people will avoid you just because they think there is something wrong there. Have I made my point yet?
You have made your point very well. I love you, I appreciate you, and I understand you ... but I also happen to disagree with you on this point.
Just as you are wary of certain key phrases commonly associated with Emerging Church / Purpose Driven / Church Growth, I am wary of making certain words or phrases off limits or automatically associating them with those who use them a certain way.
Our society is being hijacked and reformulated by liberal thought police who tell people what words they can and can’t use. The very essence of "political correctness" is the attempt to control what is the "acceptable" way of speaking and thinking, by declaring certain words and concepts politically incorrect. And postmodernism’s insistence that everything is relative has led to the common error of assuming that the words a person uses mean whatever the hearer/reader decides they mean, rather than what was intended by the original speaker/writer.
As one who stands for the biblical concepts of absolute truth and soul competence, I believe it is important that we diligently seek to understand the intent of what people are intending to communicate before assuming or concluding their intent because we are wary of their choice of words.
Have I made my point? :)
StayedOnThee said...
ReplyDeleteDid anyone else go to GBC last Sunday night and enjoy the hymn singing as much as I did? That must have been the 1st and last verses of about 10 hymns. SO refreshing!
It was great, brought back so wonderful memories from my younger days.
Remember PAGE 10!
Brother Mike said we may just go thru the entire hymn book next time; he just might try it, too.
Sheepless,
ReplyDeleteYou beat me to "page 10"!!
The older people in the back...where the man yelled page 10..were CUTE and fun!
It was really refreshing for me .
Stations of the cross
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stations_of_the_Cross
Wikepedia is not the end all for definitions but this one is pretty good. Anyone see the similarites with 'prayer stations'?
My question has always been...what is the point of this? For our prayers to be 'directed'?
Karen said...
ReplyDeleteIf you want a "gay old time" in Memphis and a "gay old time" in San Francisco, you probably are looking at 2 totally different experiences.
Yeah ... but everyone knows what a gay old time is in the town of Bedrock! Yabba dabba dooooo!
Loved the comment about Jim's memory too! Mike is quick.
ReplyDeleteLoved the comment about Jim's memory too! Mike is quick.
ReplyDeleteAnd warm and loving....
also refreshing.
what ever happened to a good ole prayer MEETING? What is up with all this 'walking' business? (Doing my Jackie Mason impression)
ReplyDeleteJunk wrote: Although I am not Catholic and have serious disagreements with Catholic theology and practices, it seems a bit extreme to me to imply that Catholics are not Christians and to call them pagans."
Junk, I love ya, man but ...BIG CAN OF WORMS Here. This could be an entire thread discussion.
So, perhaps you can tell me WHERE they manufacture those wafers that are made of Christ's Body? That is NO metaphor, friend. They believe it...
When was the last time you PRAYED to Mary?
All those mafia guys thought they were saved because they were sprinkled as babies...
Don't even get me started...
Nass...stop me!
Greetings, Friends, from the sun drenched shores of the Caribbean.
ReplyDeleteDid we have fun? OH MY GOODNESS, my face hurts from laughing so much.
The children in the schools that we performed for were precious!! On the second school we visited, they wanted our autographs!!! They were so appreciative of us coming to see them.
I had my fruity drink with the little umbrella, and I learned to do the cha cha slide with all the young people. I forgot I wasn't a teenager anymore. I had my hair put up in dredlocks, complete wtih colored beads, and I sang Harper Valley PTA at karioke.
AS much fun as we had, i'm glad i'm home, and i thought i heard sad viola music several times from afar. :)
Ya'll,
ReplyDeleteThis may be very ignorant, and I may be blasted for this, and probably will, and that's ok. But I have to ask... Why are we always the ones running away?
We are the Victors, why are we always on the defensive? We should be attacking. We ought to be riding into the this sick world with a war yell. We are the only ones who have the Answer. We know and belong to The King of Kings. WE should be kicking tail. We know the end of the story. I'm sick of letting the dark side back us into corners where we have to be so very careful that we can't celebrate our victory and freedom in Christ.
I'm tired of our side whimpering like we're the defeated ones. It's getting really sad. We can't even use certain phrases. Why can't we take hold of terms like 'purpose driven' and the like, and turn it all around and use it for Christ's sake, like we did the Christmas tree or the day called Sunday?
I know, here it comes. Reasons why we need to fear the boogey man. I know all those reasons. Heard them all in theology classes. And Eternity is going to be great. I believe that. Streets of gold, no weeping, no pain. Great. Only problem is, I need some victory now. Is 'Victory In Jesus' only for the 'here after'?
OK. Ready for incoming.
oc.
He is indeed. On that "note" I'm off to bed.
ReplyDeleteHey Junk!
ReplyDeleteYou said, "Although I am not Catholic and have serious disagreements with Catholic theology and practices, it seems a bit extreme to me to imply that Catholics are not Christians and to call them pagans. Just sayin'..."
On my post at 3:55 PM, May 31, 2007, today...I give a link at the conclusion of my post. You need to watch it. Everybody needs to watch it...that is why I posted it. Bro. David Cloud preaches on 'Catholicism, Past and Present' and it is quite good. It is a DVD and he goes into depth on the history of Catholicism and where we are today in it. I cannot recommend it highly enough.
Ima
lynn,
ReplyDeleteThere have been a lot of changes in the Career department (even the name is different), but overall it's not really that much different than it's ever been. When the format of the Career assemblies changed in 2005 (before Dr. Gaines came) it became much more difficult to socialize on Sunday mornings. Most of the assembly time is now taken up by the praise bands, and it's harder to meet people. I think that's probably what you're seeing. It's harder to meet people, but not impossible. It just takes a little extra effort.
Single's departments traditionally have never been warm, welcoming places. That's why we need the more experienced members who see the problem to step up and try to change it.
The controversy surrounding the leadership has served as a tool for division that we've never seen before, but there's not a majority for or against the pastor that I've seen. It all depends on who you speak to, but I don't believe that questioning the pastor (in an appropriate way) would result in your being labeled as undesirable. There was a very heated argument in Gulf Shores about the matter, and I'm sure you would have had a lot to add.
I've often felt left out and even shunned by others in the ministry, but I now see that as their problem instead of mine. God has taught me that although I need to love others and put their needs before my own, I'm not to depend on them for my own happiness. I've tried it, and I discovered that they very seldom cooperate.
In many ways, the SingleLife department is a mission field. It needs a lot of help, and I hope you'll give it another chance.
oc,
ReplyDeletenot sure I know the answer but that is the question I ask my daughter when I am worn out....do we have to wait until we die and go to heaven???
She tells me we get glimpses here...we are being sanctified and refined.....so I guess when we are 80 or something......????
sickofthelies said...
ReplyDeleteGreetings, Friends, from the sun drenched shores of the Caribbean.
{{{{{{{{{SOTL}}}}}}}} !!!
So glad to have you back, and so glad you had such a good time!
I sang Harper Valley PTA at karioke.
Shocking!! Next thing ya know you'll be dancin' and going to churches with Elvis impersonators!!
AS much fun as we had, i'm glad i'm home, and i thought i heard sad viola music several times from afar.
According to a post recently from concernedsbcer, it must have been played while on a rollercoaster in Atlanta!
Hey Lin! You said, "Don't even get me started...Nass...stop me!"
ReplyDeleteComment: Okey dokey! I just referred him to the link I posted today at at 3:55 PM, May 31, 2007, today. He needs to watch that. It is an eye opener for sure. Nevermind Nass...I got it! :)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletesotl,
ReplyDeleteGlad you are back!! Hope you are tanned and rested!!!
Junk99mail....
ReplyDeleteI once went to work as Elvis for a costume contest. So technically....theres an elvis impersonator on the blog :p
gmommy
ReplyDeleteI'm tanned, but i had to much fun to be well rested!!
Never Met A Stranger,
ReplyDeletePlease e-mail me so that we can discuss this in more detail :).
Lynn
Lin said...
ReplyDeleteDon't even get me started...
I wouldn't dream of it!!
imaresistor said...
ReplyDeleteOn my post at 3:55 PM, May 31, 2007, today...I give a link at the conclusion of my post. You need to watch it. Everybody needs to watch it...that is why I posted it. Bro. David Cloud preaches on 'Catholicism, Past and Present' and it is quite good. It is a DVD and he goes into depth on the history of Catholicism and where we are today in it. I cannot recommend it highly enough.
Don't get me wrong ... I am certainly no apologist for or supporter of Catholicism! I'm also no stranger to their doctrines. But I will try to make opportunity to watch the message you linked to.
powergmommy said,
ReplyDeleteoc,
not sure I know the answer but is the question I ask my daughter when I am worn out....do we have to wait until we die and go to heaven???
She tells me we get glimpses here...we are being sanctified and refined.....so I guess when we are 80 or something......????
Reply; it's a mixed blessing. Glimpses of Heaven, glimpses of Hell. I think it is enough to make you choose, though.
Just sayin',
oc.
does anyone know anything about this book called Blue Like Jazz that is getting so much buzz amongst the leadership at BBC?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI have a copy of Blue Like Jazz...but I don't think I made it that far. Fell asleep 10 pages in.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteSOTL said
ReplyDeleteI had my fruity drink with the little umbrella, and I learned to do the cha cha slide with all the young people. I forgot I wasn't a teenager anymore. I had my hair put up in dredlocks, complete wtih colored beads, and I sang Harper Valley PTA at karioke.
Piglet says:
Welcome back, SOTL. Are you sure someone didn't spike that little fruity drink? :)
struggling to stay said
does anyone know anything about this book called Blue Like Jazz that is getting so much buzz amongst the leadership at BBC?
Piglet says:
I read a couple of reviews just now. The word relevant is used over and over ....
strugglingtostay said...
ReplyDeletedoes anyone know anything about this book called Blue Like Jazz that is getting so much buzz amongst the leadership at BBC?
Never heard of it, but you can read a little about it here.
At the risk of sounding like I am contradicting what I said earlier, there are certain key phrases here that sound "emergent" -- things like "postmodern" and "his desire to appeal to those experimenting with other flavors of spirituality". To be clear, I'm only saying that one must be cautious and not assume that (1) because it is being marketed as a "Christian” book that it is automatically biblically sound or that (2) because some emergent sounding words are used that it automatically biblically unsound.
Most of us have seen pictures of pets and their people, both looking alike?
ReplyDeleteJust... maybe we start looking like who/what we are looking at...
I'm not sure about everybody else, but I certainly don't want to be looking for boogers behind every bush, devils through every doorway, traps in every trail... kooks in every "korner" ...
It is said that people are trained to recognize a counterfeit dollar, not by studying imitations, but instead by studying the real thing.
May we all focus on the face of our Saviour
"Blue Like Jazz"
ReplyDeleteEmergent Alert! Emergent Alert!
Don Miller is all about a 'social gospel'.
Personally, I found the book a big snore besides the subtle false teaching... mainly because I do not go in for 'stream of consciousness' writing.
"I had my fruity drink with the little umbrella, and I learned to do the cha cha slide with all the young people. I forgot I wasn't a teenager anymore. I had my hair put up in dredlocks, complete wtih colored beads, and I sang Harper Valley PTA at karioke."
ReplyDeleteShe's gone 'native' folks.
"...I have to ask... Why are we always the ones running away?
ReplyDeleteWe are the Victors, why are we always on the defensive? We should be attacking. We ought to be riding into the this sick world with a war yell. We are the only ones who have the Answer. We know and belong to The King of Kings. WE should be kicking tail. We know the end of the story. I'm sick of letting the dark side back us into corners where we have to be so very careful that we can't celebrate our victory and freedom in Christ.
I'm tired of our side whimpering like we're the defeated ones. It's getting really sad. We can't even use certain phrases. Why can't we take hold of terms like 'purpose driven' and the like, and turn it all around and use it for Christ's sake, like we did the Christmas tree or the day called Sunday?
I know, here it comes. Reasons why we need to fear the boogey man. I know all those reasons. Heard them all in theology classes. And Eternity is going to be great. I believe that. Streets of gold, no weeping, no pain. Great. Only problem is, I need some victory now. Is 'Victory In Jesus' only for the 'here after'?
OK. Ready for incoming."
OC,
I figure you're speaking in the big picture, but with this horrible split at BBC, I see this blog in many ways still on the defensive. I know it is because the truthseekers are really a loose confederation of individuals--alienated by the way the pedophile scandal was (stage) managed, the lack of transparency and partial (in both senses of the term) investigations--while the administration has the deep pockets, lawyers and other resourses to deflect real, consequential, responsibility.
In this sense, I wish you would know that if you follow what is true and just in your heart, even if rends something so dear, then you have nothing of which to be defensive, and this above all is like the trial by fire of your faith, against all odds. You are strong and beautiful for it.
Ok, so I had an extra beer at the pool hall--sorry. But just so you know that at the heart of the matter, you can hold up your head; and as much as that the snivelers will seek to take you on tagents, avoid their trifling crap.
It is said that people are trained to recognize a counterfeit dollar, not by studying imitations, but instead by studying the real thing.
ReplyDeleteMay we all focus on the face of our Saviour
------------------
A hearty Amen to this!
"In the year that King Uzziah died
(in place of King Uzziah put whatever personal loss you have or are suffering - perhaps the loss of the Bellevue you once loved),
I SAW ALSO THE LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and His train filled the temple"
(Isaiah 6:1).
"When the child of God loves the
WORD OF GOD and sees the SON OF GOD, he is changed by the SPIRIT OF GOD into the IMAGE OF GOD for the GLORY OF GOD because he has found the TRUTH OF GOD." - A.Rogers
Instead of waiting for people to come to me, I started approaching them. Instead of going to the Career events for myself, I started going to be a blessing to others. When I did, I was able to overcome my shyness and finally fit in.
ReplyDelete-----------------
"A man who hath friends must show himself to be friendly" (Prov.18:24).
Whatever we need from others, we need to extend to them. That's the Golden Rule and it works! The world is full of "takers" and needs more "givers."
I believe the reason people jump on the "next big thing" in modern Christianity, such as PD, Blue Like Jazz, etc. is that deep down they really don't believe that the Bible and the God of the Bible is sufficient...they have a need to re-invent both to create a God and a faith that suits what their itching ears want to hear. They worship the god of their imaginations...who they WANT Him to be, rather than who He IS as revealed in Scripture. "Ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth."
ReplyDelete