On Sunday, April 29, 2007, Dr. Steve Gaines preached a sermon in the morning services entitled "Running to Win." He began by saying his family had attended the 7th Annual Country Music Marathon and 1/2 Marathon in Nashville the day before.
During the sermon they showed these photos of the men's and women's winners on the IMAG. He mentioned this year's wheelchair winner was a man from Germantown.
Unfortunately, there are several "problems" with this story. For one, it was the 8th Annual Country Music Marathon, not the 7th, but that could have been an honest mistake. If that had been the only error I'd have thought nothing of it. However, there's more.
The two individuals represented on the IMAG as this year's winners were actually the 2006 winners. Their photos and information are here. The 2006 wheelchair winner was indeed from Germantown.
However, this year's winners were a man from Kenya and a woman from the Ukraine. Their photos and information are here. This year's wheelchair winner is from Hoschton, Georgia, not Germantown. See articles from The Tennessean.
I figured I might have to explain this to someone, and one person has asked, so here's the point. The point wasn't that he didn't do his research on this particular issue but that if he isn't concerned about adhering to the truth in a situation as inconsequential as this, how can he be trusted in matters of greater importance? It really doesn't matter if his research assistant (if he even had one) is stupid or lazy (a 6th grader could have done a better job), or he didn't stay until the end of the event to see the winners (which means he is being willfully dishonest or at the least negligent), or that he doesn't do his own research -- the point is he didn't get the most basic of facts right, and that tells me he's not any more believable when he says anything else.
Personally, I think the sermon was prepared (by him or someone else) before Saturday, so the winners weren't known and that he (or someone) was just lazy and pulled this stuff off the internet thinking no one would notice. I think when he said it was the 7th annual event this was further evidence that the information came from the internet rather than firsthand knowledge.
So call it "nitpicky" or whatever. In the grand scheme of things it's not important that Steve Gaines was in error on this particular issue. It's the much bigger issue of which this is a symptom.
"He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much." Luke 16:10
You may watch the video of that sermon (and others) on Bellevue's site. To get to the sermon archives on Bellevue's site, go to the main page, click on "Watch Now" (under the "Bellevue Media - Live On Demand On the Go" logo is), and if you click on "Launch On Demand Player" you'll get a list of past sermons on video and audio, and the titles and Scripture passages are listed. You'll also see two little links in the upper righthand corner, one for "Dr. Adrian Rogers Archive" and the other for "Sermon Notes Archive." There's another link for the latter in the middle of that page where it says "Download Past Sermon Notes."
505 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 505 of 505Mary,
May God bless you and yours.
So how is GBC? I have only been there a few times and that was not for an actual service. I used to hear a lot of complaints about lack of friendliness and Wednesday night youth services that sounded similar to what I2 at Bellevue was described as being. I also would hear that on Mothers Day and Fathers Day you could forget about Sunday night services and even the Super Bowl was worthy of a party in the Youth Department.
Whyisthequestion
You are amazed?
Gee, does it frustrate you when a perceived injustice is overlooked? Maybe even lied about? And those that see it are told to leave because they are not wanted if they want to see injustice come to an end? Does that get your goat?
How about when people DO start leaving in large numbers? Does that seem tragic? Is it sad to you that those who stay look the other way or may even praise the injustice?
Does it concern you when the individual responsible for the injustice is awarded honor and applause and standing ovations?
How about those who laugh and scorn at those who want to see the right thing done? What about those who call evil good and good evil? Does that amaze you as well?
It has been quite a while since I have posted. I lurk from time to time to see if anything has changed. My family has moved on after 10 wonderful years at Bellevue. We came to Bellevue from another denomination, but truly loved Dr. Rogers' ministry. Dr. Rogers was not a perfect man, never claimed to be. I even found things that I could not agree with him concerning scripture interpretations. Nontheless, during those years, never once was his integrity ever questioned. I was very excited about SG coming to Bellevue. Even after the fence incident, I was truly willing to give the man a chance. As I was taught...fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
It was after the Dec. 3rd sham-of-a-meeting that was the final straw. I was disgusted at the behavior of men who supposedly was the "spiritual spine" of our church. I searched for the truth. I began to ask questions. It was amazing that I gathered so much information from so many different people and the pieces all took shape until a big ugly puzzle had appeared before me. My family had a choice to make. the choice was easy...we left. It has been hard that so many have been scattered to many different places. We have visited several churches and have not missed a Sunday since Dec. 3rd. There are many wonderful churches with pastors that truly love what they do...not just the money they receive (some probably don't receive very much). I know that there are many that have chosen to stay at Bellevue for their own reasons. I am truly sorry that Mrs. R. had to leave her church home because the gross actions of leadership. It has been heard that the "weak" have left. So be it! When I am weak, He is strong! We are happy and desire to walk in Truth. If that makes me weak...ok. Let me be an encouragement to those that are still at Bellevue. If you are going to attend, then try to find something that makes you happy. If not, please be careful that you don't become bitter. It is an easy trap to step into. Constantly harping on things is not going to change them, but it will eventually change you. I am praying for those of you who are still there...I don't know how you do it. May the peace that only comes from our Savior, Jesus be with you all.
Junk,
Lay off Texas. :)
OC.
Ezekiel
I have continually read your comments and am quite preplexed as to your views of God. It seems that the God you write of is one full of vengence and judgement for the very beings that he created, with very little compassion for the same beings. It is if you view humans as beings created as a punching bag for God's relief of anger.
You seem to view God as an all-powerful being for man to be afraid of. It seems to me that it would be exceedingly difficult to have a personal relationship who you fear in such a manner.
Yet Paul, Peter, Matthew, John, Mark, Luke and Jesus himself speak much differently of God. They speak of a being full of love and compassion that wants nothing other than to cement a personal relationship with man. This seems to be a far different perspective than the one you continually write of in you fire and brimstone, judgement and death, deeds of God.
I worship a God that so loved mankind that he sent His only Son to this earth to allow man a way to unite Him and man. By sending Jesus to this Earth, he knew of his impending fate. He knew that Jesus would be captured and tortured to a degree that we could not imagine. He knew that his only Son would be stripped naked and forced to endure the most horrible execution ever developed. Yet he knew that, to reach reunification with man, His Son's suffering and sacrifice would be necessary.
God is to be loved, not on to be frightened of. Without the understanding of God's infinite love for mankind, one could easily fall into the trap of viewing God as one full of wrath and punishment.
Astounded: Thanks for your post. I think a huge problem today is there are those who, for one reason or another, seem to be able to focus only on one side of God's character. Usually, you see it within the seeker churches only focusing on God's loving and merciful characteristics. I believe we have to acknowledge all sides of God's character. We do need to "fear" God, in that we feel compelled to be obedient. We need to honor and revere God because He is Holy and Righteous. We need to love God because He first loved us. We need to accept the grace and mercy He so freely gives. I think trouble begins when we get out of balance.
Thanks again for you post. :)
AOG
ever heard of Reel Foot Lake?
With God all things are possible!
Watching: Could you explain your point and how that relates to AOG's post? I'm not following....
25+,
Thanks for the tips! I read the passage in MacArthurs 2005 bible commentary this morning and if I read it right, he appears to believe that the pouring out of the spirit will be on all people apparently after the 1000 years when all that is left are Christains.
But then he makes a statement that "the time will come, however, when God will use visions and dreams during the tribulation period as predicted by Joel 2:28-32." If I rememberr correctly when I read it the first time, I got the sense that Christians are going to partake of the tribulation. Not sure we are not in it right now...
I would love to see some scriptural evidence of the rapture.....I did not find it on my first read through. You would have thought that something that big would have been easy to find....
Any way one looks at it though, visions, signs and wonders we are told are not all of God and certainly in the end times. Thanks again for your response!
Concernedsbcr,
Good post. I look at it as a pendalum that has swung to far to the liberal, feel good, God is love, everything is great, peace peace side of the clock.
The only way to get it back to the middle is with a move in the other direction.
Astounded,
Ok, lets do it your way. Lets just start publishing bibles with the new testament. The OT doesn't apply anymore. We will just throw it out and keep the image of the big grandfatherly guy in heaven bouncing us on his knee.
Messages like that are just bound to drive all these heathen around us to the altar, right?
Yep, it is ok to commit every sin imaginable and things are still ok.....God loves you and all you have to do is come down to the front of the church and get you some!
Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.
4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the statutes and judgments.
4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. <><><><><><><><><><>
You will be glad to know that I just finished the OT!!!!!!
Mark 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any [man] deceive you:
13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and shall deceive many.
13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for [such things] must needs be; but the end [shall] not [be] yet.
13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these [are] the beginnings of sorrows.
13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
13:11 But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against [their] parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13:13 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter [therein], to take any thing out of his house:
13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
13:19 For [in] those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Oh no!!! Could it be? Sort of sounds like the same God I have been reading about.....
Astounded, are you reading that thing or do you just keep it around for a dust magnet?
How many of you are aware that John MacArthur is a 5 point Calvinist, one who believes that God makes some people evil to do evil things to bring about His purposes. This would also enclude sex offenders to molest and rape.
I am absolutely amazed at the stand that most of you make against Gaines who preaches and teaches the truth of God's love and uphold a man like John MacArthur who teaches false doctrine of grace. By the way, sickofthelies; I am sick of the lies just like you!
Ms. Tap,
You must not be TOO sick of the lies because you continue to support an apostate "pastor" ( and I use that term loosely)
By the way, you did not comment on why you think Mrs. R. has chosen to worship elsewhere.
Seeking: I'm amazed and alarmed at your lack of basic knowledge of scripture. I believe you have been blinded for some reason. I am praying for you.
Ms. Tapp,
I thought you had sworn off the blog...remember the letter you wrote?
I've been absent for a couple of days and I just caught up - I got a run down of the sermon at BBC from a friend via email and I am startled that Steve would preach such a thing. Has anyone considered the fact that DC's sister in law claims to have been abused? Or many have said (including me) that DG seems to have characteristics of being an abused wife. This is not my own summation; I have talked at length with abuse survivors and each one has come to me with their own conclusions on DG. With Steve's volitle temper, I don't doubt DG is being pushed around (not physically, but who knows).
If I were a mother and was preached at the way BBC was preached at on Sunday, I'd leave quick, fast and in a hurry.
Steve, your stress is showing - better ask God what to do next.
karen
Ms. Tapp,
NO ONE HAS ATTACKED THE WAY YOU HAVE ATTACKED. NO ONE CARES ABOUT 5 POINT CALVINISM ON THIS THRED. JOHN MCARTHUR CAN BE A 3 TOED SLOTH FOR ALL I CAN ABOUT HIM. STEVE GAINES IS THE WRONG MAN FOR OUR CHURCH - LET'S DEAL WITH THAT.
LAY OFF SOTL. SHE SPEAKS THE TRUTH AND I GUESS THAT'S WHAT GETS TO YOU.
karen
karen,
What did he say in the sermon?
Junk99mail,
I liked your post on the vision and testing spirit.
As to the reply of your latest question. No I have not changed. I have been saying judgment for the housee of the Lord coming. Pretty sure it is already here if Romans 1 is to be believed.
In fact if we look at Mark 13, the future doesn't look too good either. Did persecution just stop when the Apostles were all gone.
I don't think so. I think that we as a people have water down the message so much that people that would actually preach the true Gospel would get run plumb out of the church. Just ask Paul Washer or Mahan.
So as to WH, I don't think it is apropriate to disparage the reputaion of an obviously godly man that is not here to defend himself. One only has to look at the posts to know that he was loved and obviously did a lot to further the ministry of Christ. A lot more than a most of us would ever dream of.
But to abandon the message of judgement that I see a holy God pouring out on his beloved church to cleanse it and purify it is something I can't do.
It is easy to show scripture and see the message and communicate it in general terms, Christians, and Christian churches in general. But to bring that message to BBC is hard to do. Dr Rogers was the leader of this church so long that to many an indictment against the church is an indictment against him and it should not be so. There are many unsaved people sitting in the pews. Even Dr. Rogers knew that. How do we reach them?
Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3:3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in [his] wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger [from his right], and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Karen: Great post. :)
concernedsbcer,
Which post were you commending? Please tell me it was not the one accusing Steve Gaines of being a wife beater.
SOTL,
I received an email that sort of explained what happened on Sunday.
First of all, Steve didn't even acknowledge mothers at the 11 am service. This is all from my email: "Apparently someone'e's wife isn't submitting because s wife or staff wife (perhaps DC's) is nagging (I think he actually used this word)and not being submissive. Another friend told me he was berating women in general. All of this on Mothers Day. It just appeared out of context and inappropriate for the occasion. He also made a statement about being submissive to the pastor and there was sparse clapping, not like it used to be w/ standing O's."
Also, DC closed in prayer, acknowledged HIS mother and HIS daughters as being great mothers, but didn't acknowledge his wife.
karen
Solomon: The 8:58 post. :)
Thank you!
solomon,
Didn't say he was a wife beater. Abuse takes many forms - ask Mary Winkler. Or ask me - I'll tell you about marital abuse. (from an ex husband - for those of you who know my husband, it ain"t him! :)
Don't run over to the Bratton blog and claim I'm saying DG is abused. I didn't say that at all!
karen
Karen: You've got mail. :)
Ms Tapp,
Your understanding of the doctrines of grace is pitifully woeful. Calvinists teach no such thing. God is not the author of anyone's sin and John McArthur or any other Calvinist I know teaches any such thing. However He IS sovereign over ALL things, including the sin of wicked men. Stop speaking of things you obviously know nothing about.
Karen,
I hope your post is not condoning Ms. Winkler's murder of her husband.
karen,
That's exactly how rumors get started. This is a can of worms you should not have opened.
I sat through both services Sunday morning, and there was nothing unusual about the message. It was a typical Southern Baptist husband-is-the-boss sermon, one which I always hate to hear because my wife makes doggone sure that I know we're joint heirs when we get home.
Steve Gaines recognized the mothers at both services. Mark Dougherty led the opening prayer, but the pastor said a second prayer for the mothers, grandmothers, and great-grandmothers.
He also prayed for those mothers who have lost children, and also for the wives who want to have children but haven't been blessed to receive them (which would have included you if you had been there).
I've heard the same sermon in every Baptist church I've been in, and I didn't see anything wrong with it.
AOG,
You know me better than that, I hope. I was saying abuse isn't always physical - it takes many forms: sexual, mental, emotional. Just because a woman doesn't walk around with black eyes and bruises doesn't mean she's not abused.
Trust me - I got out when I could and I in no way condone what Mary Winkler did. In fact, she needs to be locked up for longer than we can count and never see her kids again. So no, I don't condone what she did. She had options.
karen
Solomon, your 9:31 post was accurate. I thought the sermon was done well and the choir special was AWESOME!!!
solomon,
I wouldn't expect you to disagree with anything Steve Gaines says or does, so you're not surprising me.
karen
Solomon said: "It was a typical Southern Baptist husband-is-the-boss sermon, one which I always hate to hear because my wife makes doggone sure that I know we're joint heirs when we get home."
I think I really like your wife, Solomon! She sounds like a keeper for sure! :)
Astounded said...
"God is to be loved, not on to be frightened of. Without the understanding of God's infinite love for mankind, one could easily fall into the trap of viewing God as one full of wrath and punishment."
7:00 AM, May 15, 2007
SeekingHisWill said...
"I am absolutely amazed at the stand that most of you make against Gaines who preaches and teaches the truth of God's love and uphold a man like John MacArthur who teaches false doctrine of grace."
8:47 AM, May 15, 2007
Response:
Neither of you have been taught the nature of God in truth. An idol can be carved with thought much more quickly than by hands.
God is holy. He is the God of grace and wrath. With the understanding of His holiness should come profound reverence in the sense of godly fear. I love my earthly father, but when I did wrong as a child I feared the consequences (old fashioned corporal punishment). The true God disciplines all of His true children. If you are without it, you are not His child. Perhaps this is the reason that we are witnessing a generation that wants to let sin slide without accountability--without consequences.
While God will forgive via the atonement of Christ, He will in no way clear the guilty... God is holy.
Exodus 34:6 And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7 "keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation."
His Word also relates that He is not merely sovereign in power and authority (as most Baptists would acknowledge), but also with regard to grace:
Exodus 33:19 Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
That is the Word of God. Take up your arguments against it with Him.
I wrote a letter several months ago apologizing for being angry and as a result of my anger I sinned and said some things that were not Christlike and I was sorry. I said that I would not participate in that again. (I would not, "loose it" and I have not. You continue to attack me, call me stupid, say I am sick and blind. Have I said any of those things to you? No, I have not. I am not angry, I am very concerned for the spiritual condition of most of those who are, "blogging" Like I said before, "you do not know who I am" I do not know if any of you can understand a person who is mission minded but I see this blog site as a mission field and all of those months that I was silent and not speaking to any of you, I was reading and praying for each of you. My heart goes out to people who are hurting and I could see nothing but anger, bitterness, and pain. God loves people and He calls all people to come before Him and, "get the mission" then we become, "sub/missioned" It is very difficult for me to walk away from people who are in desperate need of joy in their life. You have been robbed of your joy and you are blamming Brother Gaines. You want it back if you had it in the past and if you have never had it, you want it. Brother Gaines is not the giver or the taker of joy. I want you to, "get it" and submit to the order of God's headship. I become frustrated trying to share what God has taught me and I have to walk away in order to keep my focus on Jesus. You talk about the the, "awful" message that was preached at BBC on Sunday morning. Every point Brother Steve made was also taught and preached by Dr. Rogers, I know because I was there and I also have a multitude of his tapes. You are now saying that most likely he abuses his wife. Do any of you know Donna Gaines? I do and also her parents. This is just an example of the speading of false gossip and lies for the purpose of hurting Gaines. God will not bless us when we participate in this kind of behavior. Why have I come back to communicate with you? Not to call you names and hurt you, belittle you or curse you but to let you know that people such as I, in Bellevue love you. It is not, love, true love if we pass up any opportunities to witness for Jesus Christ and this is my heart. So far, God has used my voice as a witness and 5 people who were reading this blog recognized my name, that you revealed, and they came to me and we have formed wonderful friendships. They decided to remain at BBC. Why? Not because of me but because Jesus taught me the true meaning of sub/mission, to bring people to His healing touch, to "get it" Am I above sinning again? No, but I am very careful and I am keeping my self on a very short rope. Please don't walk away and say that no one who remains at Bellevue cares about those who are hurting because this very letter says that is not true. We do have a submissive problem! and if we are not submissive we are, "rebels" The message taken out of context of the complete truth produces hostility and hardened hearts. Satan knows this about humans and let me encourage you to pursue wisdom and understanding in this teaching it will make a significant difference in your outlook on the entire situation and you will not have a problem with the leadership over you, regardless if it your husband, pastor, government official or boss at work. When we become, "Mission minded (like Christ) every one, sinners, Christians, husbands, children are the mission. We are sub/missioned to lead them on the way, make them a one more "better servant" equal or better than ourself. I don't wish any of you harm, I wish you Jesus and His love.
PRAYER REQUEST!!!!!
Bill Hackett, a member of BBC, was attacked in his own backyard from behind sometime last week. He was hit on the back of the head and fell forward, breaking a bunch of bones in his face. He is in ICU and needs prayer really bad. The house was gone through, but it didn't seem anything was missing. This town is full of heathens so y'all who work in your yards and mind your own business, please be careful! I told my dad he's to face the driveway at all times when he's in his yard by himself.
Thanks for praying!
karen
25+: AMEN! I tried to say that but you did a MUCH better job! Thanks.
Joy is no problem here Mrs. BT, AKA seekinghiswill. You should be seekingHiswill. Walking in truth and with the Truth brings Joy.
3 John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Seeking: I was at a meeting this week at BBC.....there were several condescending and derogatory comments made by the leader about the Saving Bellevue site, about people going to GBC, and several other issues. Now, this meeting was not about any of that. It was a simple meeting about an activity. Yet the anger and hatred was palpable. Not sure I felt the love you are speaking of........
But there have been numerous times I have been the recipient of it from people on this blog.
However, more importantly, I have known it from my Savior, the one who tells me to stand for His Truth and His Word.
I wouldn't expect you to disagree with anything Steve Gaines says or does, so you're not surprising me.
karen,
To be honest, you have surprised me. Disappointed, in fact.
Ever since I got involved in the blog, I've made it a point to get to 'know' people.
Instead of people trying to get to know me in return, they just try to 'pigeonhole' me. "Are you pro-Gaines? Anti-Gaines?"
If you had taken the time to read the posts, take note of them, and pray for them, you would be aware of my feelings about Steve Gaines. They are not what you have shown you think they are.
When I and others have prayed for you, it was not because we agreed with you. Your exchanges with 'Pastor' (which were before I even read the blog), your shoulder pain, your father's knee replacement, the reason you said you couldn't watch Tim's video, your church hunting - I truly believe that God brought them to my attention so that I would pray over them with my small group. We discussed what was going on and prayed about it because that's what Christians are supposed to do.
In spite of everything that's happened and the way we've all treated one another, this is a Christian blog. Christians care about one another and keep up with each other.
I wish I saw more evidence of that.
concernedsbcer said...
I think I really like your wife, Solomon! She sounds like a keeper for sure! :)
I agree. But she won't let me let her go, anyway.
Solomon: Wise Woman! God Bless You both. :)
seekinghiswill
Those are nice sentiments but it seems to say "I am praying for you bitter, misguided, and unsubmissive members"
A couple of questions for you:
1) Why would Mrs. Rogers be leaving Bellevue if Gaines were a man of God and submission would solve this whole problem?
2) If YOU ever sat under a pastor who was openly disobedient to God and His word, misusing God's money, and deceiving people, how would YOU respond? (take Gaines out of this and tell us how you would deal with a pastor who DID fit this description)
As to your comment on joy, I can't speak for others, but I have experienced the unspeakable joy of the Lord in the midst of this trial.
Our obedience to His leading has produced peace beyond understanding. We have reaped deep friendships with many fellow warriors with whom we share a great deal of respect. We have had prayers answered in this past 2 months alone that we have been in prayer about for YEARS. I marvel at the goodness of the Lord and I see His goodness as His loving care extended to us after a great deal of pain and sorrow this last year.
We are experiencing a profound presence of the Lord as we worship.
We, who were starving for spiritual food, are feasting at the Lord's table.
We, who have wounds from the battle, are experiencing God's healing touch.
I have more joy today than I knew was possible.
I am thankful for my Lord who has blessed us abundantly above what we could ask or think.
But this will never take away my grief over the sin at Bellevue, by the very man and leaders who are appointed shepherds of the sheep.
God is grieved over sin. May He forgive us if we ever cease to be grieved.
concernedsbcer
Check your mail! :)
Piglet: Check yours...quick! :)
watchinghisstory said...
I am not being ask to prove my post by scripture but you are to test my post by scripture. I say what the Lord lays upon my heart and you test it by scripture and respond accordingly.
I believe that as one who proposes to teach others what you believe to be God's message, you bear the greater responsibility to test your own message against scripture and to demonstrate that what you are saying is scriptural. As I said before, I do not believe you can point to any passage of scripture that specifically addresses the content of your vision. On that basis I have already tested your message and found it wanting; I am simply asking that you not just assume that your experience is from God unless you can back up the content scripturally.
Everyone is judging me in haste almost immediately. What I am saying has come through several years of contemplation if not a lifetime of thoughtful prayer and searching. Several weeks or months of searching out what I say as to the truth, get beyond the emotion toward the messenger and hear the message.
I have no negative emotion toward you personally; in fact, I find much of what has come across of your personality to be likable. But I don't always agree with the content of your messages, or the subtexts being communicated. I can't speak for others, but I think my reactions to your posts have been to the content and intent, and not to you personally.
I have the strong confidence that what I am saying is from the Lord. Ponder deeply as to what I am saying and test it by scripture and then react.
I am no spiritual giant, and, as a fallen human, sin still permeates my thoughts and perceptions and clouds my judgment and discernment ... so I have to admit that I could always be wrong. But I believe I should go to scripture as my first and only resource to seek confirmation of any message purporting to be from God, rather than pondering over it in my own feeble mind and understanding.
I sometimes get annoyed at what I perceive as a claim to be more in tune with God than others who I know to be His godly and humble servants. Sorry if I let that annoyance drive the tone of my posts. But be assured that I wish you well and have no ill feelings toward you.
ezekiel said ...
No I have not changed. I have been saying judgment for the house of the Lord coming. Pretty sure it is already here if Romans 1 is to be believed.
Thanks for your clarification. I do not disagree with the idea that much of what has taken place at BBC could be a result of God's judgment. What I was asking was if you were contending (as it seems watching does) that the primary reason for His judgment could be laid at the feet of the former pastor. From your response I take it that you are only saying that the problems at BBC can be wrapped up in the notion of God's judgment, not that AR is the cause of it.
But I'm still not sure if you were meaning to say that when a child is abused, that is some sort of expression of divine judgment. I don't think that is in any way true, and such a message does not edify anyone. Those who have been abused often suffer guilt and shame over the abuse even though they have done nothing wrong. So I hope that isn't what you meant.
I just got this email from Action News 5!
Report: Jerry Falwell taken to hospital after being found unconscious
LYNCHBURG, Va. (AP) - A Liberty University executive says the Reverend Jerry Falwell has been taken to the hospital after he was found unconscious in his office.
The executive vice president of the school tells The News and Advance of Lynchburg that Falwell was found unconscious after missing an appointment this morning.
The newspaper says Falwell arrived at Lynchburg General Hospital around noon
You're solomon, I acted really bratty as far as you're concerned - you have spoken up for me on Mike Bratton's blog as well, don't forget - and I trashed you today. I'm sorry. Will you forgive me?
karen
Oh gosh, y'all!
Jerry Falwell has died.
karen
Jerry Falwell has died at age 73. Pray for his family and Liberty Univ.
karen,
Forget about it. I've taken worse.
Keith
Keith,
Thanks!
karen
Dr. Rogers 1st words in Heaven to Rev. Falwell:
"Cool, huh?"
(interpreted by Karen - I don't have a crystal ball or anything) :)
Karen
Karen,
The media channels have already brought up the "controversy" that shrouded Dr Falwell. You know, things like his claim about the inerrancy of scripture, the United States' Christian heritage, the political stands he took for the "religious right",and the quest for a "Moral Majority" among other notable achievements.
It seems the liberals and the lost cannot help but go after a Christian dead man, sort of like the attacks on Dr. Rogers.
One of my dear friends, a Liberty grad, emailed me a note about it - she said he died where he lived - in service to the Lord.
Karen wrote:
"Dr. Rogers 1st words in Heaven to Rev. Falwell:
'Cool, huh?'"
Probably something like that, Karen! At least I'm certain the words "pull up a chair, sit here beside me, and watch the destruction" never entered into the conversation.
Piglet,
I have some insights as to why Mrs. Rogers is upset and why she would choose to attend another church but these are, "my insights" I have compassion for Mrs. Rogers she has been placed in a very difficult position with the death of her husband. Mrs. Rogers is no different from any other woman who has lost her spouse. She must take a role that she has never had to take-leadership. I watched both of our mothers go through the same thing. They experienced fear,a loss of identity, made a few wrong decisions, they went through a period of anger and suffered through loneliness. I think that it will be good for her to get away from Bellevue, at least, for a while. The Bellevue she knew (Adrain Rogers ministry) no longer governs but the ministry that Adrian Rogers loved still exist. What was that ministry? Calling people to come to Jesus and live their lives for Him. It has taken both of our Mothers nearly 10 years to really adjust to their single lives and to be comfortable making their own decisions. I have told many people, who are upset with Mrs. Rogers, that there has not been enough time for Mrs. Rogers to heal and that she has had too many changes placed on her at one time no one should judge her and neither should anyone base their moves on what she does or does not do. Dr. Rogers loved his wife dearly and he protected her by making decisions regarding the way they should walk. I, also, walk in my husbands shadow, yes I state my feelings and beliefs but I listen to him and his wisdom regarding important issues such as where we shall worship and serve the Lord. I have plainly told him that if Brother Gaines gets ran off by all of the junk that I am leaving BBC and he quickly corrected me and said, "that decision is his as long as he is the head of our home" and I told him, yes I agree and I will submit but he had better love me as I work through the pain because it will be very difficult. Mrs. Rogers no longer has her husband (Adrain) but she does have the Lord and some extended time alone with Him away from outside pressures and negative talk will do wonders for her and for the legacy of her giant of a husband. It might be a good move for her to establish some new friends and join a good support group. Old friends do not always give the best advice especially if they are prone to demand their way and pressure you to do things or say things when they only have their own interest in their heart. I hope this answers your question on Mrs. Rogers.
The other question: What would I do if """"" If I knew it to be an absolute fact I would go to him and tell him that I have this positive information, not hear say. I would tell him that my spirit is quenched as a result of what he has done (not hear say or part truths) and that I must leave because the health of my spirit is more important to me than anything or anyone else and I would continue to be a missionary somewhere. I know exactly what you will come back with, the same old accusations but I would not even consider leaving a Pastor because he crossed a fense to try to resolve an issue that was getting out of hand and potentially going to harm an entire congregation (which it did). I would not consider leaving a Pastor who suggested a donation to a Methodist Church who just lost their building to a fire. (We go into Muslem countries and work for them in order to carry the gospel of love for your neighbors) I would not leave a Pastor who was new to our congregation and was misguided to believe that an issue of a past moral failure had been dealt with over 17 years ago and later learned that he had been misguided. I would leave a pastor if he did not preach and teach the truth and so would my husband, I would leave a pastor who was a practicing immoral man. Over and over I read of accusations but not one of them has been proven to be a absolute fact. The truth behind all of the junk is power control those who want the ministry of Dr. Rogers to stay intact because they had an important position. Please don't everyone get offended! this only applies to those who are guilty and not to every single one of you.
I have no intention of offended anyone I just want you to know that I disagree with much of what you say, but I love you. Brothers and sisters in Christ should be able to express their views and there is a proper place and time for a calm, peaceful meeting but it was obvious that the business meetings was not the right timing because there were rising tempers from both sides which would have produced no good fruits. For this reason we were for the meeting to be dismissed. I look forward to the time when we all can sit down and have a meeting with the Judge.
shw,witq,
You folks are remarkable. No wonder BBC is in decline. You cannot speak for Mrs. Rogers or any other Christian. You base your attacks, anger, bitterness and spite towards us on unscriptural ideology and wonder why you are bitter? I am sorry for you.
mom4,
Oh, the 1st thing said on the news radio channel about Dr. Falwell's life was something to the effect of "born to a bootlegger". How funny that the 1st sentence couldn't possibly contain "he was sold out for the cause of Christ", but that's expecting too much.
Karen
WHY,
Unless you are Steve or Donna Gaines and you have personally spent time with them behind closed doors, there is NO WAY you can say I'm slandering them. I didn't say she was abused - I said the following:
"Or many have said (including me) that DG seems to have characteristics of being an abused wife."
She "seems to have the characteristics" is so far from "she is an abused wife". I NEVER SAID THAT! Just like "you are like Hezbollah" and "he is Hezbollah" aren't the same to Steve Gaines, right???
I'm so filled with hate, why do you even care about responding to me? Hey, I have a great idea - why don't you email me, reveal your true identity and you and me can go to lunch and discuss our differences. Until then, I'll continue to speak my mind and there ain't a whole lot you can do to change that.
Now go off to the "Bratton Blog" and tattle on me - we'll wait for you right here to get back!
karen
Seekinghiswill (and others),
It ain't no sin to use paragraphs. If you're writing a tome, these old eyes need a break in the page ever so often.
WHY,
One more thing - I recognize the characteristics of an abused because I used to be one. Now, can you say the same? If not, you have nothing to say on the matter and I wish you wouldn't.
karen
lovecakes,
hey there buddy!
mom4,
I really can't wait until the news media rehashes the rift with Larry what's his face from "hustler" and Rev. Falwell, can you?
karen
Byebelle said:
please be careful that you don't become bitter. It is an easy trap to step into. Constantly harping on things is not going to change them, but it will eventually change you.
REPLY: Thank you for that word of exhortation. God warns us to be on guard "lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you and many be be defiled."
(Hebrews 12:15)
"Bitterness is like acid eating up its own container." - A. Rogers
Mary became bitter when she left her first Love and became consumed with the circumstances around her.
(See Luke 10:40-) The only cure for bitterness is to focus more on
the Author and Finisher of our faith than on Bellevue's crisis - as grievous as it is.
"One of satan's greatest weapons against a child of God is to make
him/her feel helpless and hopeless." - A. Rogers
"Now the God of HOPE fill you with all JOY and PEACE in believing, that you may ABOUND IN HOPE through the power of the Holy Spirit." (Romans 15:13)
Whether the Lord leads us out or leads us to stay and contend for the faith, He will be our Hope, our Joy and our Peace through the power of His Holy Spirit.:-D
What's up, Karen!
You know, as much as cronyism and boot-licking tic me off here, sloppy grammar and locution get my blood boiling.
Didn't y'all pay attention in school; do you also wear a bear shirt?
Here's an idea--get a library card.
(Note: the author wishes it known that the above was stated with tongue-in-cheek. Well, all except the stuff about cronyism and boot-licking.)
seekinghiswill,
Your insight is FAR OUTTA SIGHT. You are totally clueless. She is attending another church for the exact same reasons that thousands of others are. Wake up and face reality.
Junk99mail,
If this won't answer your question, then I can't answer it. But you will have a better idea of what I have looked at. Remember Romans 1 and look at it after you read this. Sorry for the length NASS.
"From your response I take it that you are only saying that the problems at BBC can be wrapped up in the notion of God's judgment, not that AR is the cause of it."
I am glad you got that part of it. I would also hope that you could extend the same process to your second question.
The whole stinking mess looks like afliction, judgement. And not just at BBC either. The whole church. As if it were not enough to rebel against God and bring judgement upon us, our children pay a price as well. Read the following and see for yourself. I just can't say it the way He does.
This did not happen in a day. It took years………
OLD TESTAMENT HAS BEEN FULFILLED. HAPPENED IN SAMARIA AND JERUSALEM
De28:56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,
28:57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all [things] secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.
Lam 2:19 Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of the Lord: lift up thy hands toward him for the life of thy young children, that faint for hunger in the top of every street.
2:20 Behold, O LORD, and consider to whom thou hast done this. Shall the women eat their fruit, [and] children of a span long? shall the priest and the prophet be slain in the sanctuary of the Lord?
2:21 The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets: my virgins and my young men are fallen by the sword; thou hast slain [them] in the day of thine anger; thou hast killed, [and] not pitied.
Lam 4:3 Even the sea monsters draw out the breast, they give suck to their young ones: the daughter of my people [is become] cruel, like the ostriches in the wilderness.
4:4 The tongue of the sucking child cleaveth to the roof of his mouth for thirst: the young children ask bread, [and] no man breaketh [it] unto them.
4:5 They that did feed delicately are desolate in the streets: they that were brought up in scarlet embrace dunghills.
4:6 For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her.
4:7 Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing [was] of sapphire:
4:8 Their visage is blacker than a coal; they are not known in the streets: their skin cleaveth to their bones; it is withered, it is become like a stick.
4:9 [They that be] slain with the sword are better than [they that be] slain with hunger: for these pine away, stricken through for [want of] the fruits of the field.
4:10 The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people.
Hos 9:12 Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, [that there shall] not [be] a man [left]: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them!
9:13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, [is] planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.
9:14 Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.
9:15 All their wickedness [is] in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes [are] revolters.
9:16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay [even] the beloved [fruit] of their womb.
9:17 My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations.
NEW TESTAMENT YET TO BE FULFILLED OR BEING FULFILLED IN JESUS’S OWN WORDS
We have been taught that we are going to be raptured up before this happens. But look around, all kinds of deviant behavior resulting in the loss of our children, abuse of our children. It just gets worse and worse. Who is responsible? Can we blame it on God? Or does it go all the way back to the Garden…born in sin. We are supposed to be Christians. Named after Christ. Yet we have among us those that call themselves Christians and commit every kind of vile abomination known to man and work every day coming up with new ones. Profane HIS holy name daily. Call ourselves Christians and live like the world.
God used Babylon (the world) to judge Israel. Is it really that hard to imagine that He will use the world to judge His house today?
Hos13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. (Abortion?)
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luke 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed [are] the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
That is what is so disturbing about the things we see happening today. The church is supposed to be our refuge, our protection, our hedge. Yet there is no justice for the poor, orphans or abused. The refugees are supposed to find comfort amongst us……love like a family member. Needs met. Souls saved.
Instead we have become the modern day Israel. A laughingstock. An embarrassment to God’s holy name.
lovecakes said...
Didn't y'all pay attention in school; do you also wear a bear shirt?
Karen Says: HUH???
kaern
I know I am late in responding to this but I just couldn't let it go!
SeekingHisWill said...
What is the big deal about a dream it could have been a day dream, a night dream or mere fanasy. If the Pastor said it or someone said that he said it and tried to cover up their own lie, who knows and who cares; God is big enough to take up for Himself and get revenge where it need be. One thing WatchingHistory said that does make sense. Dr. Rogers hand picked PW and as we all know he also hand picked Gaines and you can not seperate him from this present situation because he had a significant part. I personally believe Dr. Rogers knew what he was doing in both cases. Does this mean that I defend PW? NO NO NO! I do think he most likely can be compared to David (if he has truely repented). Of course you all know how I feel about Brother Steve: He is a man's after God's own heart and he has NOT experienced a great moral failure or anything worthy of all the junk thrown at him. Dr. Rogers was not stupid and he was not out of God's will.
REPLY: Not sure where to start, this is so messed up.
Anyway, dreams from watchinghisstory as well as any comments, are subject to being dismissed as foolish and off the wall. The latest "dream" is one of the most outlandish, ungodly paragraph of words I have read in a long time. Doesn't watchinghisstory read scripture and know what goes on in heaven when a saint dies? Does this outsider have any clue to the workings of God and the Holy Spirit. It doesn't sound like it.
"One thing WatchingHistory said that does make sense. Dr. Rogers hand picked PW and as we all know he also hand picked Gaines"
He may have hired PW but does that mean that he know about his problem? NO. Dr. Rogers would have fired him in a skinny minute. Mrs. Rogers told us he didn't know about PW. Let's see believe Mrs. Rogers or you...hummm...who has credibility...hummm......I'll go with the Mrs. .
Dr. Rogers DID NOT hand pick Steve. If you would have listened to him when he was in the pulpit after Steve was "hired",(I want to say forced down our throats) Dr. Rogers said that I never told anyone (including committee members)that I wanted Steve to be the Pastor. Does that mean Dr. Rogers has poor judgement? No! It just means that he didn't know Stevieboy for what he really is.
Does this validate Steve and his actions? NOOOOOOO! Like I stated before, Judas was a disciple of Jesus and we all know how that worked out.
We know how you & watchinghisstory feel about Steve and you have our sympathy. He or Donna is not after God's heart or things wouldn't be as they are now.
Not sure where you have been but he HAS and keeps having moral failures. Moral failures are not just sex related. If you don't think what he has done isn't a moral failure, then what in the world are your morals??? Could explain a lot going on @ BBC.
Not worthy of junk thrown at him? Wait until he stands before the Lord Jesus.
May God have mercy.
ezekiel,
Just so I can follow along, do you reject the rapture of the church? And if so, are you saying that we are currently living in the time of tribulation?
Karen said...
lovecakes,
hey there buddy!
mom4,
I really can't wait until the news media rehashes the rift with Larry what's his face from "hustler" and Rev. Falwell, can you?
karen
Karen...don't forget, I know one article brought up the case of Falwell vs. Tinky Winky of the Teletubbies.
Please bear with the length of this post.
The following is an excerpt from the Utah Lighthouse Ministry newsletter #108 (www.utlm.org). This ministry started by the former Mormans the (late) Jerald and (still living) Sandra Tanner seeks to spread the truth of the gospel to the Latter Day Saint (LDS) community. I see many parallels to their situation and what was experienced by many in the recent BBC split. I in NO way mean that the doctrine of BBC is heretical. The similarities are in what happens when church leadership is criticized or caught not adhering to the truth cosistently:
"Now to be sure the LDS Church is not alone in relying on the blame game as a way of dealing with substantive criticisms of its teaching, history and behavior. Other religious institutions tend to resort to it also. It seems, however, to be a particular temptation to the only-true-church variety of religious institution.
I would think, for example, that the LDS Church might benefit from reading the following excellent comments in Roman Catholic dissident Hans Küng's book Truthfulness: the Future of the Church (1968). "The Church which does not conceal her mistakes, but constructively comes to terms with them, is, because truthful, also credible." Unfortunately when the Church insists upon concealing its mistakes, it must do so illegitimately, adopting an overblown view of the extent of its leadership's spiritual authority by the manipulation of truth, where, Küng goes on to say,
"truth is put at the disposal of the system and politically managed...Language is corrupted through tactical ambiguity, objective untruth, distorted rhetoric and shallow pathos... If continuity is lacking, it can be procured by omissions and harmonizations. The admission and correction of errors is strictly avoided, and instead a practical omniscience of authority insinuated. It is no longer a question of an untiring quest for truth, but of the inert, imaginary possession of truth, maintained by every instrument of power."
Out of this kind of manipulative situation inevitably flows a series of undesirable consequences,
"secrecy is demanded in things that concern everyone; scholarship consequently must serve the system; people speak differently in private from what they do in public, they speak differently from what they write; through fear of commitment they take refuge in esoteric spheres of study, far from the storms, and for the rest adapt themselves tacitly to the party line. Thus people escape from the real difficulties of life, the most urgent decisions are postponed. Anxious and opportunist—but therefore not particularly scrupulous—prestige-, power-, and system-thinking is dominant, not humility and respect for truth."
I would like to paste another excerpt describing Sandra's experience when she realized her church was not engaging and responding with truth to legitimate criticism:
"One of the first items Jerald and Sandra mimeographed and sent around to a good number of people was a letter by Sandra explaining her reasons for leaving the LDS Church. At the time they little imagined the negative response they would get. After all, were not the LDS people committed to doing the right thing when confronted with truth? Sandra recalls her thinking at that time:
I assumed, naively, when we first started out that everyone in the Church operated under the great moral standard I was raised to believe we operated under. We seek for truth and accept it when we see it. We can study our history and we don't run from it...We are for the truth. "The glory of God is Intelligence." And that works out fine as long as you are willing to accept that what the leaders tell you is truth and intelligence, but as soon as you decide that you may have the capacity of determining truth on your own, then you're in trouble... If God is truth, then we must stand for truth. And if it conflicts with what we believed in the past, then we must give it up."
I too thought that when BBC was confronted with the fact that our pastor believes a man who raped his son is not disqualified from being a minister then the leadership and congregation would rise up ask such a man to resign. Instead I was told to worship elsewhere if I could not follow my pastor.
To this date there has been no explanation by Steve Gaines or David Coombs as to the reasoning behind such an incredibly unbiblical decision. Instead we are accused of spreading dissension in the church for demanding such any explanation.
A lot has been said about the need for submission to authority in previous posts by seekinghiswill. We should submit to authority ... but only when it lines up with the Bible. If Seekinghiswill's spouse asked him/her to do somthing wrong you have every legitimate reason to refuse because God's authority always trumps a man's authority. God gave us a brain folks; let's try to use it!
One other thing. Mrs.R is not worshiping elsewhere because she needs space to mourn for her husband. She left for the same reason I and my family have. You cannot worship at a church whose leadership is untruthful and claims to believe the Bible yet refuses to follow it when it makes you look bad.
the great knock.......Amen.
Now if you are truly a cessationist why would you even bother to enquire as to my post.
9:10 PM, May 14, 2007
To make a point. Which I did. You do not want to be in the same category with Benny Hinn who also has visions. I asked you to affirm your vision with scripture but you have yet to do so.
Junkmail writes: I believe that as one who proposes to teach others what you believe to be God's message, you bear the greater responsibility to test your own message against scripture and to demonstrate that what you are saying is scriptural."
I agree.
concerned
I just thought that I was being "clever"
Reel Foot Lake was formed when a great earthquake reversed the flow of the Mississippi River and the water backed up to form Reel Foot and then resumed it's normal flow leaving the lake.
Just struct me that God can do anything.
lin
Acts 2:17
astounded wrote: Yet Paul, Peter, Matthew, John, Mark, Luke and Jesus himself speak much differently of God. They speak of a being full of love and compassion that wants nothing other than to cement a personal relationship with man. This seems to be a far different perspective than the one you continually write of in you fire and brimstone, judgement and death, deeds of God."
A book written back in 1900 by a Christian Apologist (Bruce) did a study of the NT and found that 47% of the NT is negative in character and by design and the rest is 'Good News' or positive.
Modernism and now Post Modernism have tended to dumb down or totally ignore the negative. There is some scary stuff in the NT! Just read Rev 21!
Bottom line...without continuous repentance in godly sorrow...we go to hell. We must hate our sin. We are to be sanctified..growing in Holiness. It is not a one time deal of saying a prayer and being Baptized. (OR, unity at all costs!)
Bet you have not heard that preached in a long time if ever.
The Good News: He who begins a good work finishes it!
ws, Here is the scripture in context for everyone:
Pentecost
Acts 2:
14But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.[b] 16But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17"'And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18even on my male servants[c] and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
Now, how does that affirm YOUR vision of Dr. Rogers being chastized in heaven? Benny Hinn could use the same verse to 'prove' his visions, too.
lin
Junkmail writes: I believe that as one who proposes to teach others what you believe to be God's message, you bear the greater responsibility to test your own message against scripture and to demonstrate that what you are saying is scriptural."
Acts 17:11 The Bereans searched the scripture to see if those things were true. Have you searched the scriptures? I've done my part. I have no control upon your decision. It's up to you and the Holy Spirit.
lin
so what is your decision?
ws wrote: Acts 17:11 The Bereans searched the scripture to see if those things were true. Have you searched the scriptures? I've done my part. I have no control upon your decision. It's up to you and the Holy Spirit."
And therein is the problem. Paul was teaching the Bereans about Jesus Christ using OT scripture. The coming Messiah is all over the OT.
How can I find anything in scripture about God chastizing Dr. Rogers for the current events at BBC?
You are going to have to do better than you have so far.
WatchingHISstory said...
Acts 17:11 The Bereans searched the scripture to see if those things were true. Have you searched the scriptures? I've done my part. I have no control upon your decision. It's up to you and the Holy Spirit.
Convenient for you that everyone else must test what you say by scripture when you yourself cannot scripturally verify the content of your vision, and others have already alluded to passages of scripture that contradict it. If you don't already realize that your lack of response is a cop out, it is pointless to continue to attempt reasoning with you about this.
lin and junkmail
so you have made your decision, get on with your life.
seekinghiswill
Thanks for your sincere response to my questions.
But please consider this - If Mrs. R wanted to escape negative talk, why would she attend the same church where the biggest percentage of "troublemakers" are - as well as the ministers that have left BBC and where Mike Spradlin is the pastor?
I wish you could have sat in the balcony and seen Jim haywood, the Sharpe family, and the Rogers family on the same row - with Josh Manning sitting directly behind them. Work on that for yourself.
I believe you are in total denial. Maybe these offenses have not been proven for YOU, but many of us have proof and personal testimony and that of those involved. Could it be that you lack proof for the same reason a theif can't find a policeman?
Have you talked with the Rogers family or are you basing your suppositions on speculation and wishful thinking?
Note: I don't base my decisions on theirs. We were visiting GBC before we knew they were.
Mark Sharpe followed Matt. 18 in confronting the pastor concerning his actions and lies. This Biblical process was thwarted by the leadership and the attempts to cover up and misrepresent the facts have caused the "damage" you describe.
If scripture had been followed from the beginning, we would not be where we are today.
But Gaines would not be pastor either, as these issues would not have been buried, but would be out in the open and there would have been precious little he could do to side step the issues in an open honest forum where he could not control the outcome.
If scripture had been followed from the beginning, we would not be where we are today.
Now there is a profound statement, think about it!!
ezekiel said ...
If this won't answer your question, then I can't answer it. But you will have a better idea of what I have looked at. Remember Romans 1 and look at it after you read this.
...and also said ...
I am glad you got that part of it. I would also hope that you could extend the same process to your second question.
Wouldn't a direct response have been a lot easier on both of us? :)
You don't need to persuade me that God's judgment is an awful thing, nor that it can involve much evil and calamity by the hands of wicked people. Of course horrible things happen to people, including to children, when God turns people over the the end result of their own depravity. The passges you quoted, and many more attest to God's judgment bringing with it suffering for many, even those supposed to be innocent.
My concern is that the matter not be painted with too broad a brush and thus leave incorrect impressions. So to put a more fine point on it, I am saying that (1) not all suffering, child abuse or otherwise, can be atributed to God's judgment (see Job), and (2) even though one result of God's judgment could sometimes include evil acts being performed against children, a child who is abused is not being abused because God is punishing them for something they did to deserve it. If you cannot agree with that, I think you would be wise not to respond at all.
WatchingHISstory said...
lin and junkmail
so you have made your decision, get on with your life.
You don't much like having your errors pointed out to you, do you? :)
But seriously, though, how do you expect to be taken seriously and with any credibility on your claims of having a message from God when you refuse to address concerns raised about the scriptural soundness of your message? Such a cavalier approach does little to instill confidence in the veracity of your message.
Nass,
I am sure there is an answer in a blog rule I am missing....so help me with this please,
Our church home has been taken from us.
We, being the minority,truthseekers,the peons for Christ.
Whoever BT is ,she is happy about the takeover. She believes sincerely that we are all wrong.
Watching didn't lose anything. He already had issue with BBC and Bro R.
Why the Q is just an irritant and all of these people and those of like mind have what they wanted.
They don't have to grieve or say good bye to old friends,
don't feel their safe place is now unsafe,
don't feel betrayed,
don't feel the need to protect the weak who will stumble under the teaching of SG....
We tried our very best by all possible forums to get answers,to express our concerns....
We have only this blog to stay in touch, to encourage, to fellowship,
to share our pain and disappointment....
to try and help each other heal and move to where the Lord will lead us.
Why are they on this blog at all????
Why do they come here to deflect and mock and hurt us more??
Can we not have this one place when they have taken so much from us???
I know you have the answer and I will wonder why I didn't know already....
but asking anyway.
Great Knock-
I loved your post. Thanks for sharing!
junk99 mail,
I can certaily agree with that.
solomon,
Not denying the rapture. Just can't find it. Please help me find it in scripture. I did not see it on the first read through.
Until I see it myself, I refuse to take a preachers word for it. I am having a hard time trusting these days....
This is where you older brothers help us younger ones. :)
junkmail
You don't much like having your errors pointed out to you, do you? :)
The message is from God, why would I care about the errors you point out. What difference does it make to me?
What is it about the "vision" that you find so strange or unbiblical?
Is it the chair? God's reference to a chair is an anthropomorphic expression commom to Biblical revelation. We don't know that there are chairs in heaven.
Is it the fact that God was speaking to AR in an angry manner?
Is AR excluded from angry judgements because of his fame and adulations of millions on this earth?
Is AR excluded because of the size of Bellevue?
Will you and I also stand before the same God one day? Will we also have to give account for the works we have done while on earth?
Will God be angry with us?
Is this too much theology?
THERE'S A NEW THREAD IF ANYONE'S INTERESTED.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
Watching: Of course God can do anything. But I learned a long time ago that all God does is within His character. If somebody says God did something and it's outside of God's character, I'd say that person was mistaken and it's not of God.
God is not the author of confusion.
ezekiel,
I'm not the best one to explain the Rapture. I have been taught it as a fact all my life, and I accept it. Others (including some with seminary time) don't accept it. I think that preachers do us a disservice when they teach one side of a topic and don't acknowledge that there is an alternate view.
First, you have to have a millenial view. Will Christ return before or after the millenial kingdom (pre- or post-mil)? Or is the millenium not really a period of 1000 years but just a spiritual reference (amil)? The post-millenial view has fallen out of favor, and the amillenial view is frowned upon by those who prefer a literal interpretation of scripture.
So if I'm premillenial I believe that Christ will return to usher in his 1000 year kingdom. The kingdom will begin when the Lord's feet stand upon the Mount of Olives (Zech 14:4).
Believing that, I also believe according to scripture that there will be a time of great suffering on earth immediately before the kingdom, the tribulation. Based on Daniel 9:27, many believe that it will last for 7 years with a significant event in the middle.
The question (and this is where I'm not really qualified to speak) is whether or not the tribulation is God's wrath, and if so how will the church be spared? 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 5:9 indicate that we will be spared from God's wrath, so somehow the church must be protected.
One way is complete removal. The rapture is seen in 1 Thess 4:17, when those who are alive in Christ will rise to meet the Lord in the air. Note that Christ does not descend all the way to earth in this passage, and those with a pre-trib view interpret this to be distinct for the glorious appearing when all nations will see him as he descends all the way to the Mount.
Matt. 24 says the Lord will come like a thief in the night, with no warning signs (such as a time of tribulation). Two men will be working in the field, and suddenly one will be taken and the other one left. That's the foundation for the Rapture. It's not a biblical term, but salvation from God's wrath and the seeming imminent return of Christ do fit it.
The post-trib thought is that the tribulation is not God's wrath, but Satan's. God's wrath will be revealed during this time, but it will not be the cause of the world-wide suffering. The church will be present for the tribulation but will not suffer the worst of it, just like Israel during the plagues in Egypt. Since God's wrath is not directed at the entire world, it will be possible for the elect to remain on the earth and be spared. Matthew 24 indicates that some of the elect will indeed be present, although this could refer to elect Jews.
Like I said, I'm not the best one to explain it but I hope that gives you a starting point. One last thing, since there is a distinct difference between Israel and the church, the pre-trib view is very dispensational. I hate to use the 'd' word, but it's important to be aware of that.
I can tell from your post that you are tending toward a post-trib return of Christ. The Rapture is certainly one of the things we can completely agree to disagree on.
Keith
Solomon,
Thanks a lot for the comments and scripture. As I have said, I started the NT today.......I will certainly be looking for anything that indicates that as christians, we will not see the tribulation.
I think we are seeing the tribulation. I certainly can't say where we are at in that tribulation but I can say that I think it will get a lot worse.
It appears to me that the Christian church today is synonomous with Jerusalem. In the words of a preacher I heard recently, I think God is sifting the church. Cleansing the church. Getting ready for a wedding.
Any idea that Satan is pouring out any kind of wrath is bunk in my opinion so this may disqualify me for the post mil tag. He just doesn't have the power unless God gives it to him. The message we get these days negates or minimizes God's total sovereignty.
The supreme authority that asked the spirits who would go and 400 prophets were deceived. The same one that asked satan if he had considered His servant, Job.
Israel, Judah and Jerusalem all fell by degrees. It started with raiding parties right after Joshua died and Israel failed to cleanse Canaan. They did not obey. Downhill from there, just worse and worse. The repeated message from God, turn around, come back to me.
The church is putting on her makeup and polishing the lure that invites the world into her bedroom. That is how I see all the seeker friendly stuff happening today. It is all man centered....lots of folks in the church getting the mark and don't even know it. Led there by a lot of false prophets teaching a false gospel. The sad part of it is that the falsehood is so sly that those without a solid base in the WORD won't be able to discern the difference.
Lin discussed the method of teaching the secret service agents how to spot counterfit money....they handle the real deal so much that a fake is exposed immediately. I think the more we get into the WORD the more fake pastors we are going to find. Ultimately those with this kind of background will see persecution, they already are. Ima and Mark Sharp are just two recent examples. They call us wolves today! I bet satan really gets a charge out of that one! God only knows how bad it will get, but the worst perrsectuion will come from the church and not the world. Just as it did when Jesus walked the earth.
Remember, "take up your cross and follow me" as well as " they hated me and they will hate you" or something like that. Lets face it, the world is in the church. The more world we get in the church, the more the church is going to hate the true christians in them. All the way to the day the trumpet sounds.
Thanks agin for the scripture. I will study it.
Didn't Christ Himself say that His Kingdom is not of this world? Did He not also say that "the Kingdom of God is at hand"? Why then, do His people "await" a kingdom? The kingdom is with us..right now...a spiritual reality..we are citizens of it, and Christ is ruling and reigning as King of all kings and LORD of all lords as we speak. His Kingdom is established. The only thing I await is the end of days and His coronation.
all,
True, the kingdom is not of this world and Christ has been established as King. However, I don't believe the kingdom has been fully established. I see that from Hebrews 2:6-8,
But there is a place where someone has testified: "What is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him? You made him a little lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor and put everything under his feet? In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.
I heard a preacher say (for the life of me I don't remember who it was) that if Jesus does not restore the proper order of things before history ends, then Satan wins. I tend to agree with him.
1 Cor 15:24-28 says:
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
So, in my simplistic view, a time will come when death is conquered, and Jesus will immediately return the kingdom to the father. Since I believe Christ must reign over everything for some period of time(every knee shall bow, etc.) I don't believe that the kingdom has been fully established, especially in light of Hebrews 2:8. That's one reason why the amillenial view hasn't won me over.
I will agree with you that it's a shame so many Christians seem to think they must wait until some future time to rejoice. I can think of plenty of examples in the Bible that show that the kindgom of heaven (eternal life as John called it) is not just a future time.
Just my thoughts.
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