On Sunday, April 29, 2007, Dr. Steve Gaines preached a sermon in the morning services entitled "Running to Win." He began by saying his family had attended the 7th Annual Country Music Marathon and 1/2 Marathon in Nashville the day before.
During the sermon they showed these photos of the men's and women's winners on the IMAG. He mentioned this year's wheelchair winner was a man from Germantown.
Unfortunately, there are several "problems" with this story. For one, it was the 8th Annual Country Music Marathon, not the 7th, but that could have been an honest mistake. If that had been the only error I'd have thought nothing of it. However, there's more.
The two individuals represented on the IMAG as this year's winners were actually the 2006 winners. Their photos and information are here. The 2006 wheelchair winner was indeed from Germantown.
However, this year's winners were a man from Kenya and a woman from the Ukraine. Their photos and information are here. This year's wheelchair winner is from Hoschton, Georgia, not Germantown. See articles from The Tennessean.
I figured I might have to explain this to someone, and one person has asked, so here's the point. The point wasn't that he didn't do his research on this particular issue but that if he isn't concerned about adhering to the truth in a situation as inconsequential as this, how can he be trusted in matters of greater importance? It really doesn't matter if his research assistant (if he even had one) is stupid or lazy (a 6th grader could have done a better job), or he didn't stay until the end of the event to see the winners (which means he is being willfully dishonest or at the least negligent), or that he doesn't do his own research -- the point is he didn't get the most basic of facts right, and that tells me he's not any more believable when he says anything else.
Personally, I think the sermon was prepared (by him or someone else) before Saturday, so the winners weren't known and that he (or someone) was just lazy and pulled this stuff off the internet thinking no one would notice. I think when he said it was the 7th annual event this was further evidence that the information came from the internet rather than firsthand knowledge.
So call it "nitpicky" or whatever. In the grand scheme of things it's not important that Steve Gaines was in error on this particular issue. It's the much bigger issue of which this is a symptom.
"He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much." Luke 16:10
You may watch the video of that sermon (and others) on Bellevue's site. To get to the sermon archives on Bellevue's site, go to the main page, click on "Watch Now" (under the "Bellevue Media - Live On Demand On the Go" logo is), and if you click on "Launch On Demand Player" you'll get a list of past sermons on video and audio, and the titles and Scripture passages are listed. You'll also see two little links in the upper righthand corner, one for "Dr. Adrian Rogers Archive" and the other for "Sermon Notes Archive." There's another link for the latter in the middle of that page where it says "Download Past Sermon Notes."
505 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 505 Newer› Newest»Rod Almondmartanti said...
It appears that Joyce Rogers is leaving Bellevue and attending Germantown.
How grevious it must be for her and her family to see all that she and her beloved husband worked for and built up and were blessed to see the Lord use so mightly, go down "the tubes" in such a short time. Such a short time to destroy all that was built up by the Lord!
REPLY TO ROD: I have been amazed at the criticisim I have heard of late regarding Joyce's response to
what has transpired at Bellevue these past 21 months. Let's consider her losses:
-her husband
-her best friend
-her pastor
-her husband's legacy under attack
-her church being disgraced and destroyed
-her childrens' new member class she has taught for over 30 yrs.
-those she loves under attack
And now she is having to leave the church she and her husband invested their lives in. There is no way any of us can imagine the pain she is suffering. Please pray for her in the days ahead.
A word of encouragement from the Word:
"But thanks be to God, Who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as you
know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord" (I Cor. 15:57,58)
"The least amount of faith is greater than the greatest amount of difficulty." - A. Rogers
Socwork-
Thanks for the welcome. Was beginning to wonder if I was the only one who could see my posts (being new to this blogging business). Unfortunately, I had to tend to others things shortly after posting and did not see your welcome until I quickly checked the blog much later. And I know that no one is online right now but now was the only time I had to acknowledge your welcome. So again, thanks.
Now I must go again until much later today, but I intend to return to participate as much as my schedule will allow.
"Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on thee"
What WOULD we do if God was not our refuge?!?
If the CEO of a large organization gave a speech with so many easily verifiable errors, he would be considered a joke or worse. There would probably be a write up in the news about it.
The reason I draw on this analogy is because BBC is subscribing to business principles to run the church.
What Ezekial wrote made me think of the Word from God in Revelations. If we read His Word to the churches, they are quite startling. God allows sin but He warns of the consequences all through scripture. He is perfect in: Justice, Wrath, Mercy and Love.
To the churches, He first tells them what they are doing right BUT then He outlines what He has against them and what will happen if they do not repent.
This should be a warning to us all. The purity of the Bride is non negotiable. Repentance is non negotiable. Of the 7 churches, 5 are in apostasy or on the borderline.
It starts in Revelations 2:
To the Church in Ephesus
1"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: 'The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands.
2"'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. 3I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary. 4But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.'
To the Church in Pergamum
12"And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: 'The words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword.
13"'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith[b] even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. 15So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth. 17He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.'
18"And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: 'The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze.
19"'I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. 20But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants[c] to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. 22Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, 23and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve. 24But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. 25Only hold fast what you have until I come. 26The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, 27and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. 28And I will give him the morning star. 29He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'
To the Church in Sardis
1"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: 'The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.
"'I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. 3Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. 4Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'
To the Church in Laodicea
14"And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.
15"'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"
Morning All,
NASS, my mom gets that garbage all the time in the mail. The sad thing is, she believes it!!!! Thats even when I tell her its a scam!
Lynn
Zech 13:1"On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness.
Idolatry Cut Off
2"And on that day, declares the LORD of hosts, I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, so that they shall be remembered no more. And also I will remove from the land the prophets and the spirit of uncleanness. 3And if anyone again prophesies, his father and mother who bore him will say to him, 'You shall not live, for you speak lies in the name of the LORD.' And his father and mother who bore him shall pierce him through when he prophesies.
4"On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies. He will not put on a hairy cloak in order to deceive, 5but he will say, 'I am no prophet, I am a worker of the soil, for a man sold me in my youth.'[a] 6And if one asks him, 'What are these wounds on your back?'[b] he will say, 'The wounds I received in the house of my friends.'
The Shepherd Struck
7"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who stands next to me,"
declares the LORD of hosts.
"Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered;
I will turn my hand against the little ones.
8In the whole land, declares the LORD,
two thirds shall be cut off and perish,
and one third shall be left alive.
9And I will put this third into the fire,
and refine them as one refines silver,
and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
and I will answer them.
I will say, 'They are my people';
and they will say, 'The LORD is my God.'"
Fire of affliction...................Unfulfilled prophecy and prophecy being fulfilled.......
Just some thoughts I've been pondering from my morning time in the Word.
God chose and anointed King Saul. The people wanted him and he was so tall and handsome and plesant to the eye. But God chose Saul and he was God's anointed.
God also called and chose Judas.
There are more examples along these lines, however it is enought to consider the fact that God choses and anoints many men to do His work. Just because someone is called or anointed by God does not mean that the character or work of that person is a vessel of beauty; it could also be a vessel for destruction or judgement.
Just something to think about when making judgements like, "they are God's chosen or anointed". The question is NOT if anyone of us is called to be used by God, but WHAT is God using us for.
Rod Almondmartanti said...
Just some thoughts I've been pondering from my morning time in the Word.
God chose and anointed King Saul. The people wanted him and he was so tall and handsome and plesant to the eye. But God chose Saul and he was God's anointed.
REPLY: Interesting. I have also thought about Saul being chosen king of Israel because they were not satisified with God - they wanted to be like the heathen nations around them. God finally gave them the desire of their hearts but sent leaness to their souls. Could it have been that God had a David for us but we chose a Saul? If we keep pushing against a door that God is closing, sometimes He will go ahead and open it and give us what we want - and will send leanness to our souls (Ps.106:15). SG is here either because God sent him or because He allowed him to come (God is sovereign and rules and overrules according to His divine purposes). We cannot always know God's ways. His thoughts and ways are so much higher than ours (Isa.55:9). One thing we can know is that God has promised to never leave us nor forsake us. And every fiery trial He allows His children to endure is for purification and edification - not destruction. He tells us to cast all our cares upon Him because He cares for us (I Peter 5:7) - even the cares of Bellevue's downfall. He tells us to be still and KNOW that He is God
(Ps.46:10)
There was a split @Bellevue 40 yrs. ago and though wounded deeply, Bellevue survived and then
eventually thrived. That may not be in God's plans this time but whatever His plans are they are for our good and not for evil to give us a future and a hope
(Jeremiah 29:11). "Why are you cast down, O my soul? And why are you disturbed within me? Hope thou in God for I will yet praise Him
who is the health of my countenance
and my God" (Ps. 42:11)
"There is no panic in Heaven;
only plans." - A. Rogers
32yrs@BBC, what was the split over, 40yrs ago?
Stayed: What would we do? It's hard enough to make it through this life WITH Him; I don't evenn want to think about it without him.
Welcome to the blog. It's kinda like a family......those relatives you love, those you....well....don't....but a covering of love and desire to grow together.
TO ALL MY BLOG FRIEND MOMMIES:
HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY!!!
"Will Bellevue's candlestick be put out? Will Ichobod be written across the lentils?"
Wow, that must be extremely small script.
SOTL said
TO ALL MY BLOG FRIEND MOMMIES:
HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY!!!
Thanks! And from me too! We are blessed to be mothers
Remember your moms tomorrow everyone!
I'll have Lintils under the Lintel.
Har de har har! Guess that makes me a "S A." Hey, don't go potty-mouth on me. You've already got a bad reputation.
Well, looks like the church is very much reaping what it has sown (or, for me, the ripening of karma; sorry--cannot help but to see bridges). Next stop, staff reduction--if I were a betting man.
Sorry no one got my joke about Showboat, as my sense of humor is often obtuse. But go read dude's apologia for the way the business meeting was conducted and terminated--laden with purple prozac, reaching sports metaphors and finally concludes that it was the truthseekers fault. Sure, they were polite, measured in their speech, articulate and concise in message; yet, they showed their darkened hearts when they offered a motion with a two-horned purpose. Thank God for technicalities, since the truthseekers evil plot was thwarted.
Now do you get the joke? BWAH!
"It's kinda like a family......those relatives you love, those you....well....don't....but a covering of love and desire to grow together. "
Uncle Dave...
misbehaves...
etc.
lovecakes,
You are over my head but I love you!!
I get the purple prozac....sorta like the old purple haze.??
Having a total "chill day" since a massage, so not going to read that "other" blog....too hate filled.
I got called down last night by a "bubble" person because I was talking about my buddist friend that was more kind and encouraging than some of the other people I knew.....
(cookie cutter thinking )
Del said...
32yrs@BBC, what was the split over, 40yrs ago?
4:03 PM, May 12, 2007
REPLY: I wasn't there but according to what I've heard, there were people unhappy with
Dr. Ramsey Pollard who became pastor after the much loved Dr. Lee. Brooks Ramsey (I'm not sure if he was an associate pastor but I believe he was) led a rebellion and many left with him to form another church. That church was
Second Baptist which is still in existence today. However, it never has been a dynamic church and I've heard it is theologically liberal. Someone who knows more than I may have more info. regarding the details. If so, I hope they see your post and give a more thorough answer.
gmommylv said...
lovecakes,
You are over my head but I love you!!
I get the purple prozac....sorta like the old purple haze.??
Having a total "chill day" since a massage, so not going to read that "other" blog....too hate filled.
I got called down last night by a "bubble" person because I was talking about my buddist friend that was more kind and encouraging than some of the other people I knew.....
(cookie cutter thinking )
5:54 PM, May 12, 2007
gmommylv....if you think thats bad....I have a friend of mine who had a visitor to the church he attends read him the riot act because he missed a week at church because his kids have a bowling tournament.
GMommy....next time tell your bubble friends if it quacks like a duck.....you know the rest.
The truth is the truth.
concerned sbcer,
Exactly!
My daughter said...."stick with your (remnant) friends"
Before you go to Bellevue in the morning and listen to SG's sermon invitation, watch this sermon video by Henry Mahan about invitations.
http://www.baptistreformation.org/video--More%20Than%20an%20Invitation.html
Hope all the Moms out there have a special day tomorrow!
I LOVE BEING A MOM! :D
sotl and oc
I'll be standing in front of the painting of AR at 4:30 tomorrow at Bellevue to talk with you if you are interested (and that includes anyone else that's interested)
oc, Just watch the profanity in the house of God.
Watching: I am praying for you.
Watching,
Don't hold your breath.
Watching said,
oc, Just watch the profanity in the house of God.
Reply: I didn't know that Smart Alec was profanity. Thanks for the info.
The mystery is over!!!!
I guess it's more than jokes I don't get! Smart Alec...did not have a clue!
I feel better now.
I know oc, concerned and especially SOTL will be there to meet watching tomorrow!!!
Why in the world would watching want to be there??? He doesn't go to BBC....?
What game are we playing now?
Thanks 32yrs@BBC for the update about the split. My wife and I joined BBC in 1980 and were members until 1995 when we moved to Nashville. Dr. Pollard would preach occasionally when Dr. Rogers was away, but we never heard anyone mention the previous problems. Everyone seemed to be focused on the future especially after the decision was made to move out east.
oc
You are the smart elek, you and the rest of us knew what S A was and you know how to CYdonkey
Of coarse you are a counselor, so you are smart.
I can't wait to meet you.
Please pray for oc
Guys,
Take it elsewhere -- perhaps a nice back alley.
whs,
Just a word of friendly advice. If I were you I'd think twice about standing anywhere close to that huge portrait of Dr. Rogers. I'd be afraid it might fall off the wall and hit me in the head!
BTW, the term is "smart aleck."
nbbcof
It won't hit you in the head you'll be safe in your parents basement!
Oh, I'm not worried! Note I said, "If I were you.... " :-)
Regarding the subject of this topic, I wrote:
"The question is what will he do with this information now that it's been brought to his attention? Will he correct this mistake, or will he act like nothing happened?"
The answer, as of today, is... no surprise, really... the latter.
How sad to see Miss Joyce at GBC this AM. It is truly heartbreaking!!
Jason Talant was there as well.
http://www.celeryhart.com/TakeMyHand/
Hope you can get this. It is really good. Enjoy!!!!!!!!
Here's the story behind that song.
And more here and here.
Thomas A. Dorsey also wrote "Peace in the Valley."
In thinking of beautiful BBC these same words come flooding my mine. Precious Lord, Take my hand, lead me on, let me stand. I am tired I am weak I am worn......
Thanks Nass for the story...Thanks for all the work on the blog.Thanks for giving us a place to find others to lean on.
Thank you, lwood. You great bloggers make it what it is and have been a great source of inspiration to me.
Charlie Fox said...
How sad to see Miss Joyce at GBC this AM. It is truly heartbreaking!!
FOLLOW UP:
For clarification, what is so sad is that she finds it necessary to worship somewhere besides BBC.
Nass: You're the best. The blog has been a "family of friends."
Charlie Fox has mail!
charlie,
Thanks for clarifying that!
concernedsbcer,
Thanks. It has.
"The blog has been a 'family of friends.'"
Watch it. I think someone probably already has the copyright to that!
We were at GBC this am also. The story of Ruth is beautiful. It was truly a worship service. We felt that we had been in the presence of the Lord.
We all need to pray for Ms. Joyce, her grief must be heavy.
Soooo, I hear that the sermon this morning was about " Marks of a Godly Wife"
I don't think that he has ANY credibility to pass judgement on what makes a Godly wife, when he ignores the very scripture that would tell him how to be a Godly pastor.
Would he have us to believe that scripture only applies to women, and not to men, ESPECIALLY the BBC millionaire's club?
Hmmm, so I'm sitting here thinking...
What are the marks of a " Godly Pastor"?
Here are some ideas on the marks of an UNGodly Pastor:
Breaking the law: fence climbing in a no trespassing area, failure to report a pedophile, failure to turn over documents required by non-profit law, improper tax-free charges made to BBC credit card accounts
Scaling fences and tresspasses on private property, hands out God's money to apostate churches to promote abortions and homosexuality, goes to other churches and trashes his own sheep, winks at the sodomizing of a child by his minister father, pretends that a 15 y/o girl was not cussed out and handcuffed in HIS church.
Couldn't false prophets on this blog be saying that the pedophile is not a part of God's judgement seventeen years ago and they are speaking a false vision and the desires of their heart? Couldn't they be laying all the blame on SG and not speaking the truth?
And if that were so then might God pour out their wickedness upon the ones who listen to them.
Worth a repeat: 13 Observations of an Evangelist, Baptist Press, 10/25/06, by Jerry Drace
(Just 3 of those 13)
-I have observed the lowering of the standards of holiness from the pulpit to the pew. It appears we are seeking to develop happy churches but not holy churches. One pastor stated that he wanted his people to leave the Sunday morning worship feeling "affirmed, approved and applauded." Whatever happened to leaving feeling confronted, convicted, confessed and cleansed? Spurgeon put it in perspective years ago when he said "Of all the griefs the church ever feels, the keenest is when those who once stood in her midst dishonor the name of Christ by unholy living."
-I have observed unethical and even immoral conduct by religious leaders with little or no remorse on their part once their deeds were made public. The graveyard of compromise is filled with those who listened to the sirens of the world. Accountability and integrity were sacrificed for personal gain and puffed-up egos. When Christian leaders become legends in their own minds the ice has already broken.
-I have observed us becoming a people who enjoy the expression of worship without encountering the experience of worship. No one enjoys beautiful choruses more than I, yet with the freedom of style which this has ushered into our churches, WE MUST BE CAREFUL NOT TO ALLOW OUR PERFORMANCE TO OVERSHADOW HIS PRESENCE. Celebration without commitment leads to worthless worship.
32yrs@bbc,
Thanx for the repeat.
whs,
Are you saying that a child being molested 17 years ago could possibly have been God's will?
Think about it; seventeen years ago a minister on staff for 17 years sodomized his son for 18 months, kept it a secret for 16 years and God in his foreknowledge saw SG comming as pastor and then brought judgement on him by forcing the pedophile's hand.
Couldn't there have been something that God saw that displeased him 17 years ago?
That wasn't the question. It was a simple question requiring only a yes-or-no answer. I will ask it again. Do you believe it could possibly be God's will for a child to be molested?
32 Years said
Worth a repeat: 13 Observations of an Evangelist, Baptist Press, 10/25/06, by Jerry Drace
(Just 3 of those 13)
Maybe there is some way you can set your post to "auto-repeat" every day or so. I am glad I read it this time around, and will look for the rest of the article. Thanks for sharing.
NBBCOF
Yes it possibly could be!
God has done unexplainable things before that stagger the immagination.
While this makes God appear unjust to us (He is never unjust) it does not compare to the sin and evil that man does to man and God.
amy,
LOOK NO FARTHER!!
13 Observations of an Evangelist
Baptist Press Wednesday 10/25/06
13 Observations of an evangelist
By Jerry Drace
JACKSON, Tenn. (BP)--Since February 1975 when God led me to establish the Jerry Drace Evangelistic Association He has allowed me to preach in more than 1,000 churches across our nation. In His divine providence He has placed me in the company of some of His choicest servants as well as some who seek to be served. Throughout the past 31 years I have kept notes and observations on each of the pastors, staffs and churches where my team and I have been privileged to present the claims of Christ. I am sure some of these observations will be misunderstood, others will be embraced. I wish to share only 13 in hopes they will serve as a catalyst for your own reflections:
-- I have observed the lowering of the standards of holiness from the pulpit to the pew. It appears we are seeking to develop happy churches, but not holy churches. One pastor stated that he wanted his people to leave the Sunday morning worship feeling "affirmed, approved and applauded". Whatever happened to leaving feeling confronted, convicted, confessed and cleansed? Spurgeon put it in perspective years ago when he said, "Of all the griefs the church ever feels, the keenest is when those who once stood in her midst dishonor the name of Christ by unholy living."
-- I have observed the seductive fashions of the world being worn in the worship centers of our churches. Teenage girls and sometimes their mothers wear clothes to church they neither could wear to school nor in the workplace. The same applies to the male gender. We have developed such a laxity in our attire the result has numbed the spiritual senses of being in the presence of Deity. I am fully aware that God looks on the heart, but clothing, or the lack thereof, should not distract from looking into His face.
-- I have observed more and more churches having fewer and fewer revivals. Of course, the rural church will always hold a revival, whether they actually have one or not, the third week of August. Vance Havner once said, "Preachers speak of 'holding revivals'. Somebody ought to turn one loose!" Real revival -- which takes prayer and preparation and sees scores ushered into the Kingdom and church members rekindling the fire within -- is quickly giving way to one-day events. We have stopped singing "Take Time To Be Holy," because we don't have the time.
-- I have observed more and more churches decreasing from mortification rather than increasing due to salvation. There is more life outside in most church cemeteries than inside on the pews. At least in the cemeteries the grass grows and the flowers bloom. If there is not a revival in our land many of our rural churches will become bed and breakfast inns and our larger churches will be turned into antique malls. If you don't believe this, visit Great Britain.
-- I have observed more and more churches growing by transferring letters rather than transforming lives. It doesn't take a genius to build a church numerically. Given the right staff and programs you can fill a church. However, there is an eternal difference between filling a church with people and filling the people inside the church.
-- I have observed more and more pastors and evangelists preaching someone else's sermons rather than studying and preaching their own. The call to preach has been replaced with the desire to succeed. Being an expounder of the Word requires time alone with God. Being a mouth for God to the people of God is an awesome responsibility. Preaching someone else's anointed sermon doesn't guarantee your anointment. If the sermon isn't gathered and set ablaze in the pastor's heart it likely won't spread to the hearts of the church members. Some of the greatest proclaimers of the Good News are seldom heard because they neither pastor a mega church nor are the featured speakers on Christian cruises.
-- I have observed unethical and even immoral conduct by religious leaders with little or no remorse on their part once their deeds were made public. The graveyard of compromise is filled with those who listened to the sirens of the world. Accountability and integrity were sacrificed for personal gain and puffed-up egos. When Christian leaders become legends in their own minds the ice has already broken.
-- I have observed the policies of the community dictating the policies of the church, especially in the area of sports. We now schedule the events of the church around the athletic calendar of our schools or recreational departments. We have surrendered to the god of sports. Many of our parents allow their children to play their favorite sport on Sunday morning with the rationale, "What can we do about it?" These same parents wouldn't allow their children to skip school for a church event. We even close our churches on Sunday nights if it is a national holiday. Good thing God doesn't cancel His services.
-- I have observed more and more churches teaching the latest trends in church growth rather than the doctrines of the Scriptures. We have churches full of people who can quote from the latest church growth guru, but for the life of them they can neither recall nor defend any of the doctrines of the Bible. We can be seeker friendly and purpose driven, but if we fail to seek Christ and find our purpose in Him alone all the books, seminars and mega conferences will only impede the salvation of the lost and the disciplining of the saved.
-- I have observed us becoming a people who enjoy the expression of worship without encountering the experience of worship. No one enjoys beautiful choruses more than me, yet with the freedom of style which this has ushered into our churches we must be careful not to allow our performance to overshadow His presence. Celebration without commitment leads to worthless worship.
-- I have observed religion becoming big business. Christian recording artists are now referred to as superstars and certain pastors are touted as religious CEOs. Religious leaders have evolved from troublers of society to trend-setters in society. We have religious personalities who are known as much for their political creeds as their theological convictions. Simple statements from the Bible are marketed into multimillion dollar enterprises. An executive in a Christian publication company once told me, "It's all about the buck." You half expect to see certain religious organizations listed on the New York Stock Exchange.
-- I have observed a few proclaimers who have comprised their call because of a cowardly commitment to the truths of God's Word. This brings about a deceitful delivery of devilish doctrines. The end result is a man who panders to the people and prostitutes the proclamation in the process. When wickedness enters the doors of the church it soon spreads throughout the land without any opposition. Satan himself could not have better allies than pastors who refuse to preach the truths of the Scriptures and church members who refuse to live godly lives.
-- I have observed a righteous remnant in every church who have a hunger and thirst for experiencing God to the fullest. It is this group, both young and old, who will pass on the teachings and doctrines of Holy Scripture to the next generation. Praise God for ministers and members who are not driven by fashions and trends, but remain faithful and true to fulfilling the Great Commission.
Jerry Drace is a past president of the Conference of Southern Baptist Evangelists. In addition to revivals and area wide crusades, he and his wife, Becky, conduct Hope for the Home conferences. They live in Jackson, Tenn. More information about the Draces is available at www.jdea.tn.org and www.HopefortheHome.org.
It's not about the music.
I knew something was different about the praise team contemporary music at Germantown Baptist vs Bellevue and this morning at GBC it really hit home with me. It's not the words, even though they are beautiful words, or the instruments.
It's the spirit of worship, you see and feel their sincerity of their praise to the Lord. It's not about them, they are not performing, they are really praising God and it is beautiful!
After you listen to Amy & Richard sing praises and Bro. Mike "PREACH", you know you've been to Church.
What a wonderful experience!
Thanks Charlie!
wh said...
"Couldn't there have been something that God saw that displeased him 17 years ago?"
If you know something that happened 17 years ago, and you know for a fact that it is true about this sexual abuse of a child,you need to go to the DCS immediately.
If not and it is just something you have imagined or dreamed up or you just "think" there is something that only God knows and that you are the only other person on the face of the earth that has the knowledge of God, you need to shut up about it unless it is something you can back with scripture. If whatever spiritual knowledge you think you have is not something that is evidenced in His Word, you must be under the spell of a demonic influence. The Lord speaks in a still quiet voice to His children, and thru His Word. You sir, are yelling jibberish.
watching history,
Stop trying to play God. You are doing a really bad job.
You cannot put your little brain around how God works and simplify it all to the way you are able to see it.
There was sin and corruption in the ministry staff at BBC for many years.
Yes,we are seeing the consequences of PW's ability to keep his sin a secret and all those that knew and didn't expose him....(the ADULTS on staff....and the wife.)
it isn't over yet by a long shot!
Get over your pride or delusions. You are getting on my last nerve.
Try thinking OF OTHERS and not so highly of your self.
Sin corrupts. We see that clearly.
Unexposed, unconfessed, unrepentant SEXUAL SIN....hurts and corrupts and desensitizes and destroys others.
This sin was not about poor Paul the perp.
MANY people are suffering and will continue too.
The ones too arrogant to accept responsibility and consequences have to face God someday.
I know you want to be "all that" but pick something else to play God about.
I struggle to get out of the house since my church betrayed me and SO many others.
Stop picking at our wounds. We need to heal....
not to mention a certain precious young man,husband and father.
Watching history,
OK, you have just confirmed what I have been suspecting all along.
You need to either take your medication, or have it changed. You are crazy.
To say that it is God's will that a child be molested is about as sick as anything I have ever heard.
You are demonic.
The voices you hear inside your head are not the voice of the Lord.
Keep it up, and I am going to start copying and pasting your posts to the Colilerville Police Department.
NBBCOF
"Couldn't there have been something that God saw that displeased him 17 years ago?"
A simple yes or no (or possibly yes or no)
whs,
I would like to extend to you the invitation (no pun intended) and the opportunity to tell your story here -- the story you told me in your last e-mail. It pretty much left me at a loss for words (which is why I haven't responded), so I think it would be interesting to get some input from other bloggers. I truly would like to understand your viewpoint, but I'm having trouble. If you'd like to speak candidly, the floor is yours.
"Couldn't there have been something that God saw that displeased him 17 years ago?"
Yes. I know there was! I don't know why it was kept a secret for 17 years, but what's important to me is why, once it was known, did the people who knew it (and one person in particular) not do anything about it?
Watching: God did not want his child to be hurt. Period. In Mark 10: 14, Jesus was displeased that the disciples were keeping children away from Him. He said: Suffer the little children to come to me, and forbid them not; for such is the kingdom of heaven.
There is no way that what PW did didn't have a negative effect on his son's spiritual life. God is so faithful to be there for those deeply hurt by sin, and PW's son has shown great resilience, grace, and maturity, surely a blessing from God. But to say God planned it is asinine. That is not scriptural.
NASS, (This is the e-mail message I sent to you) I do not have a bone to pick with Adrian Rogers but if I can explain
to you what I am dealing with you will probably ban me. I've awaited your
reply and hoped to explain to you.
A year and a half ago I had an incredible experience with the Lord that
drastically changed my life. Then last December I was walking my dog as my
usual devotion time (quite time) with the Lord. And I know how you folks are
about experiences (visions) but out of nowhere I had a vision of a chair
being shoved in front of Adrian Rogers in heaven. A very angry God was
telling AR to "sit here and watch the destruction of Bellevue." It left me
breathless and asking God, "what is this about?"
Then about a month ago I was lying in bed and the awful truth of God's
judgment hit me about Dr. Rogers and the way he treated that lady 5 or 6
years ago when she suddenly applauded and interrupted his sermon. He
embrassassed her and God was very angry with him about that. This thought
from God drove me to cry out over and over to God to kill me right there if
that was the truth. What chance did anyone have if AR failed God that way
and AR being the great man that he was. My wife thought that I was having a
breakdown or had taken the wrong medicine.
I tried to get out of bed and walked to the foot of the bed and fell to the
floor face down to the carpet. A demon-like angry voice came out of me and
it was the voice of God expressing his anger to AR and that he had plans
that night through that lady's clapping to send a great revival to
Bellevue, the pedophile would have repented openly and the revival would
have spread to all America. But AR stopped it that night to finish his
sermon. It was just like Peter preaching at Cornelius' house. The people
responded and interrupted Peter's sermon.
I rolled over on my back and the soft gentle voice of God spoke about his
love for the little people. My wife heard it all.
Last week, less I be a hypocrite, I drove over to Bellevue and went to the
offices and ask to speak to any available minister and I relayed my story to
him. He accepted me humbly and listened and thanked me for sharing this with
him. I told him that God is not impressed with the greatness of any
minister, nor the architecture of the building not the amount of money the
church may have. God is interested in anyone who will let him be God and
Lord. I told him I plan to tell this story openly and have done so since.
I am not afraid of the consequences nor the offenses it entails.
God has given me a message of the dangers of self-determination and though I
am a Calvinist it is not about Calvinism but it is about the kind of
self-determination that has destroyed American churches.
God is angry with so-called great men who trample over the little people day
after day. This is not just about Bellevue (though Judgment has started
there) nor is it just about the SBC but denominations (non-denominations,
para-churches). God really cares about the little people who are humble
and hungry and I assured the minister that there are many on your blog who
are such.
God has open a door for me that no man can shut and in obedience I will
proclaim it. However I will not trample your rights as a blogmaster and
have not if you can believe that!
Moses struck the rock when he was suppose to speak to the rock and it cost
him dearly. Adrian's self-determination is costing him dearly and that
cost is not coming from me but God. I do not have a bone to pick with AR,
God does! Look around NASS and behold his hand of judgment. This will not
diminish but will increase all across America. It is a fearful thing to
fall into the hands of an angry God.
NASS, sincerely ask God to personally show you what he thinks of
self-determination.
WHS says: I know this opens me up to derision but I am determined to be obedient to the Holy Spirit, regardless of the cost.
WHS,
Get yourself to Boliver now!!!
CALL AN AMBULANCE
NBBCOF said
"Yes. I know there was! I don't know why it was kept a secret for 17 years, but what's important to me is why, once it was known, did the people who knew it (and one person in particular) not do anything about it?"
AR ran a delicate and beautifull china shop like no one else could.
Anyone who followed reguardless of who would be a bull (especially SG) in that china shop. Bellevue was built by AR and not by Christ.
The floor is mine and I am speaking candidly.
Here come the men in the white coats.
wh,
"... I told him that God is not impressed with the greatness of any minister, nor the architecture of the building not the amount of money the church may have. God is interested in anyone who will let him be God and Lord."
dear sir, this is something that Adrian Rogers preached repeatedly. He was a humble man. I remember the issue with the clapping woman, but not clearly. Could you give me specifics and why you think that this slight interruption would have quenched the Holy Spirit's working in the service? If Steve Gaines has taught us nothing at all, it is that God will do his work regardless of the actions of the man behind the pulpit!
And you said..."A demon-like angry voice came out of me and
it was the voice of God expressing his anger to AR and that he had plans that night through that lady's clapping to send a great revival to Bellevue, the pedophile would have repented openly and the revival would have spread to all America. But AR stopped it that night to finish his sermon."
I know you THINK the demonic voice coming out of you was that of God, but would you rethink that phrase please? An "angry, demonic" voice does not sound like God, His Son, the Holy Spirit or even an angel...Can you back this up in scripture where God possessed a man and spoke demonic words?
and then..."Adrian's self-determination is costing him dearly and that cost is not coming from me but God. I do not have a bone to pick with AR, God does!
Dr. Adrian Rogers (not to be called just "Adrian", unless you are a close personal friend or family member (It's out of respect for a life well lived for Jesus), is with his Lord and Savior right now,reaping the rewards of a life of service to his beloved Jesus Christ. Yet you are saying he is in heaven, being chastised for a single act many years ago that cost America a nationwide revival? Please explain where that is scriptural! You can't, because it is not to be found in God's Holy Word..therefore.....how do you explain your ideas and feelings since they are in opposition to scripture?
As far as the rest of your story, you do sound like you sincerely believe that you have a message to tell. You have told it. All I can say from this point right now is...WOW! I am amazed.....
Now someone correct me if I am wrong - but does anything WH has stated line up with God's Word?
oops..."If Steve Gaines has taught us nothing at all, it is that God will do his work regardless of the actions of the man behind the pulpit!"
It should have read "If Steve Gaines has taught us ANYTHING at all,.....
Or is it?
whs,
For one thing, we're told in the Bible that there is no pain or sorrow in heaven.
See Isaiah 57:1-2.
Also,
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4.
Yes, we will give account of everything we did on earth one day, but I do not believe God is making Adrian Rogers or anyone else who's in heaven sit and watch anything going on down here.
Jesus already paid for AR's sin, so God's not making him "pay" for his sin in heaven. I've no doubt Dr. Adrian Rogers is spending his days "kicking up gold dust" and rejoicing with the saints, not sitting in a chair watching "the destruction of Bellevue"!
And sir, if you're hearing (or speaking with) "demon-like" voices, they ain't coming from God!
watchinghissstory,
friend, you may very well have had a "demon-like voice" come out of your mouth, but it was not the Lord.
Your vision... also not of God, b/c it contradicts His Word (see NASS's references).
friend, you should be very concerned for your soul.
nass,socwork,sotl,
It sounds like he is being tormented by demons? That is a scary thought, especially this day and age when people are so much more in tune to emotionalism and spiritualism than they are familiar with God's Word. Jesus rebuked Satan in the wilderness using scripture - "it is written". I would suggest that Mr WH do the same.
Ok. This might sound a little rude, and if so, NASS, feel free to delete what I'm about to say.
Watching....what are you on thats making you have these "visions". As NASS has stated, Jesus died for ARs sins as well as ours. There is no need for people to sit and watch in heaven whats going on. To you sir, I say get your tail to rehab.
whs wrote:
"Last week, less I be a hypocrite, I drove over to Bellevue and went to the offices and ask to speak to any available minister and I relayed my story to him. He accepted me humbly and listened and thanked me for sharing this with
him."
Did this minister not have any comment or advice for you?
mom4,
absolutely!
I would take that a bit further and say if a demon-like voice is coming out of your mouth, chances are pretty good you are not saved.
WHS
someone just asked me if your initials are C.M.? I personally don't know what that stands for, but they asked me to ask you.
WS, I have a question for you. If I should believe your vision then why shouldn't I believe visions from Benny Hinn? Or Jan Crouch?
I can tell you why. God speaks through scripture.
"God is interested in anyone who will let him be God and
Lord."
Friend, you may not recognize it but there is self determination in that statement.
watchinghisstory said ...
And I know how you folks are
about experiences (visions) but out of nowhere I had a vision of a chair being shoved in front of Adrian Rogers in heaven. A very angry God was telling AR to "sit here and watch the destruction of Bellevue."
All,
God's Word, His written, infallible, perfect Word, is the final judge of all our experiences, thoughts, beliefs, and actions. I am no expert on His Word, especially when it comes to living it. But though we all fall so short of His standard of perfection, still we must cling to it as out only sure and certain way of knowing His will and His mind.
God could say anything to anyone through anyone ... and He often uses the most unlikely of sources. And I don't even have a problem with God speaking through visions and dreams, if He so chooses. But if someone comes to us claiming that God has given them a message for BBC, it is only right to hear it and to examine it, to "test the spirits, to see if they are from God."
In order to "test the spirit" of any claim to divine revelation, we have to approach it with a somewhat critical and suspicious attitude. This includes weighing it against specific scriptures, and against the general teachings of scripture about the character and nature of God and how He normally deals with His children. For example, we know that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom 8), so when any message from God is not going to come across as condemning. And we know that God commands us to act toward one another in the humility of Christ, so we have reason to be doubtful of a message from anyone claiming a message from God who indicates an attitude of spiritual superiority ("I have special divine knowledge available only to me or to special, more spiritual people like me").
The most important thing about discering whether a message is from God is that there is something objective against which the message can be weighed. Which is, of course, brings us back to God's written word. Anyone can make up anything, or be persuaded by demons or their own sick minds of anything. But unless it can be verified through the Word, there is no good, scriptural reason to take it seriously.
We can test the claims of Jesus and the apostles that He is the Messiah and Son of God against the Old Testament prophecies. Thus the claim to divine revelation could be verified by scripture. We must test all claims to divine revelation in the same way -- not by not by our opinions, nor by our own feelings or impressions, but by the Word.
So if someone comes to you claiming that God has spoken to them, test it ... If the claim is of such a nature that there is no scripture that can prove or verify the message, specifically and clearly and directly, that person's message simply does not pass the test.
I was there when the woman spoke up and Bob Sorrell walked over to her and walked her out. I have mentioned it on the blog before.
I made reference to it before when the victim was left with no acknowledgement or touch from SG or any of the power brokers sitting in those stupid chairs at the bogus meeting.
It was an uncomfortable moment when the woman stood up. It was in no way a moment of revival.
As I recall,Bro R was speaking out against abortion and the woman got excited and stood up and said"that's right!"
I was embarrased for her but she was treated gently and respectfully.
Not like the 15 year old was treated under SG's watch!!!!
Bro. R quoted the scripture that says things should be done orderly.....and he went on with the sermon.
I have no idea how Watching can get all that out of that day.
My experience tells me there is a lot more to this than W is telling.
I do think he is delusional BUT he has some tie to that woman or feels bro R did him wrong or is jealous or bitter aginst Bro R for something that he took personally or affected him personally.
Watching,
you were nice and normal on here for a while and enjoyed fellowshiping before you switched over again.
Please don't let the minister you spoke with use you or manipulate you. Please tell your wife or friend what you told us.
I am sorry you are going thru such turmoil. Please be careful. What you think is going on is not scriptural. There is a problem. You are very vulnerable right now. Please talk to someone trustworthy.NOT a BBC person!
Maybe it would be a good thing at this point to back up and take a more generalized approach..less personal.
Lets begin with Leviticus 26: 27"But if in spite of this you will not listen to me, but walk contrary to me, 28then I will walk contrary to you in fury, and I myself will discipline you sevenfold for your sins. 29You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters. 30And I will destroy your high places and cut down your incense altars and cast your dead bodies upon the dead bodies of your idols, and my soul will abhor you. 31And I will lay your cities waste and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your pleasing aromas. 32And I myself will devastate the land, so that your enemies who settle in it shall be appalled at it. 33And I will scatter you among the nations, and I will unsheathe the sword after you, and your land shall be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Then move on to De 28:52"They shall besiege you in all your towns, until your high and fortified walls, in which you trusted, come down throughout all your land. And they shall besiege you in all your towns throughout all your land, which the LORD your God has given you. 53And you shall eat the fruit of your womb, the flesh of your sons and daughters, whom the LORD your God has given you, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemies shall distress you. 54The man who is the most tender and refined among you will begrudge food to his brother, to the wife he embraces,[d] and to the last of the children whom he has left, 55so that he will not give to any of them any of the flesh of his children whom he is eating, because he has nothing else left, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemy shall distress you in all your towns. 56The most tender and refined woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because she is so delicate and tender, will begrudge to the husband she embraces,[e] to her son and to her daughter, 57her afterbirth that comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears, because lacking everything she will eat them secretly, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemy shall distress you in your towns.
Then on to 2 Kings 6:Ben-hadad's Siege of Samaria
24Afterward Ben-hadad king of Syria mustered his entire army and went up and besieged Samaria. 25And there was a great famine in Samaria, as they besieged it, until a donkey's head was sold for eighty shekels of silver, and the fourth part of a kab[a] of dove's dung for five shekels of silver. 26Now as the king of Israel was passing by on the wall, a woman cried out to him, saying, "Help, my lord, O king!" 27And he said, "If the LORD will not help you, how shall I help you? From the threshing floor, or from the winepress?" 28And the king asked her, "What is your trouble?" She answered, "This woman said to me, 'Give your son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow.' 29So we boiled my son and ate him. And on the next day I said to her, 'Give your son, that we may eat him.' But she has hidden her son." 30When the king heard the words of the woman, he tore his clothes--now he was passing by on the wall--and the people looked, and behold, he had sackcloth beneath on his body-- 31and he said, "May God do so to me and more also, if the head of Elisha the son of Shaphat remains on his shoulders today."
32Elisha was sitting in his house, and the elders were sitting with him. Now the king had dispatched a man from his presence, but before the messenger arrived Elisha said to the elders, "Do you see how this murderer has sent to take off my head? Look, when the messenger comes, shut the door and hold the door fast against him. Is not the sound of his master's feet behind him?" 33And while he was still speaking with them, the messenger came down to him and said, "This trouble is from the LORD! Why should I wait for the LORD any longer?"
Ok. God told them what he would do if they slid into apostacy, once in Leviticus and again in Deuteronomy a bit more forcefully. Then it happened in 2 Kings. MacArthur says that this is part of the curses of the Mosaic covenant, Especially for the sin of Apostacy, predicted this sort of pagan cannibalism......
But all this is the old covenant and old law....I thought we were free from the law and under a new covenant right?
God's Wrath on Unrighteousness
Romans1: 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
In more general terms, take a look at the "church" today......Do we have a denomination with a lesbian for a leader? Do we have several major pastors fulfilling this today? Did I just recently hear that Ex-Govenor Mcgreevy (spell) join a theological school? Several folks have mentioned apostacy in the church recently. Is this what it looks like?Haven't we had a leader recently tell us that one of these particular sins is "under the blood".
As to the question of what is and is not God's will...Nebuchadnezzar did not think it to good an idea to ask the question after he ate a lot of grass.....
Danial 4:34At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever,
for his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
and his kingdom endures from generation to generation;
35all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, "What have you done?"
Youthmomma,
Don't know what CM you are talking about, but after reading WHS's posts; it sure sounds like a CM that I know.
WHY
NONE OF US NEED TO LISTEN TO A SERMON BY THE FALSE TEACHER YOU CALL A PASTOR.
Steve Gaines doesn't know,
believe,
or teach the word of God.
Steve Gaines disobeys and perverts the word of God.
I heard the word of God, today, from someone without any agenda of his own - only that of the Lord.
I was blessed by the worship service, the sermon, the fellowship of followers of Christ and his word, not followers of a man on a power trip.
onlyamember,
Check the profile.
Piglet,
So glad you were blessed today.
Did you visit GTB again?
NASS,
Please remove WH. His posts are delusional and possibly worse than that. He will not be helped by continuing his vicious posts.
He needs help, but the attention that he is receiving here seems to be merely making him worse.
The whole discussion that WH has brought to this board is shameful. His posts are a disgrace and a discredit to this blog. It is a shame to him to write it and it would be a shame to leave it up. When I think of all of those who read this blog, his posts make me sick.
Direct divine revelation ended with the close of the cannon of scripture. Period.
WH has delusions of grandeur at best... His earlier post sounds demonic.
jmo
Gmommylv
Yes. I attended the morning and evening service. There were new faces at GBC again tonight, folks who were hanging on at BBC but are needing spiritual nourishment and fellowship.
More visitors in SS. David Smith taught a very encouraging and insightful lesson about prayer and praying in God's will. I feel a little more at home every week. :)
25+,
I agree that his posts should be removed but am wondering if he is a danger to himself in this state or vulnerable to the wolves at BBC?????
Piglet,
With all the BBC people there that have been hurt like we have,
do you think it will hinder your healing or help?
It has been like a soothing ointment.
I don't sense any bitterness, only joy and relief to be in an atmosphere where worship can take place. GBC folks are welcoming and enthusiastic. There truly IS a sweet spirit there.
I hope to go to a ladies' social Monday night and try to get more acquainted with the GBC ladies who have been so welcoming.
gmommylv
You DO know my REAL name don't you? (Hint: It's not Piglet)
Soothing ointment sure sounds good.
I have been listening to sermons on the internet.
Very lonely for fellowship but keep getting blindsided.
gmommy...
He seems to be enjoying himself. I think any wolves out there, given the baggage that he may have in tow, ought to be afraid of him. jmo
piglet,
I know your husband,right??
25+,
Thanks.
My radar doesn't work well when I think someone may be vulnerable or need help.
Totally different if he is having fun.
Appreciate your wisdom....always!
gmommylv
You have mail
As I see it there are three groups of people.
1) Faithful and wise stewards
2) Servants who know the Lord's will and do not do it.
3) Servants who don't know the Lord's will and do not do it.
The last two get beaten with stripes. They work together to achieve their self-
determined wills. One knows what is going on and the other has no idea what is happening.
There are people who know what I am writing and they are angry with me. There are people who do not have a clue what I am writing and they are angry. There are those who know what I am writing and recognize that God is using me to tell the truth and you know what that truth is. Stop "pussyfooting" around (that is a theological term I hear occasionally from pulpits)
watchinghisstory said ...
And I know how you folks are
about experiences (visions) but out of nowhere I had a vision of a chair being shoved in front of Adrian Rogers in heaven. A very angry God was telling AR to "sit here and watch the destruction of Bellevue."
REPLY: "God who at sundry times and in diverse manners spoke in time PAST unto the fathers by the prophets (before the written Word of God!), has in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds."
(Hebrews 1:1,2)
God speaks to us today through His written Word - not through dreams and visions. You are opening yourself up to the wiles of the enemy. BTW - Joseph Smith founded the Mormon religion based on visions and dreams.
25 said:
"He seems to be enjoying himself. I think any wolves out there, given the baggage that he may have in tow, ought to be afraid of him. jmo"
How true, I have the joy of the Lord and wolves beware! I am towing the burden of the Word of the Lord. His burden is light and not heavy but is heavy and burdensome to the unbelievers.
25 wrote:
Please remove WH. His posts are delusional and possibly worse than that. He will not be helped by continuing his vicious posts.
John 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
John 10:20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
People are known by the friends they keep. John 15:14-15
whs,
Regarding the minister you spoke with at BBC, you stated that he "accepted me humbly and listened and thanked me for sharing this with him."
Are you saying he basically had "no comment" other than thanking you for telling him this? I would find it difficult to believe (and understand) if he didn't voice some opinion or give you any advice. Did he say he agreed with you?
I know if I were a staff minister at BBC and someone came to me with the story you're telling, I'd be inclined to do more than just listen and say "thank you."
whs wrote:
John 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
John 10:20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
Are you comparing yourself to Christ now?
whs, you left out one category that most of us would fit into:
4) Those that think you are nuts.
gmommylv said...
Piglet,
So glad you were blessed today.
Did you visit GTB again?
REPLY:
GTB????
NBBCOF
Are you comparing yourself to Christ now?
Is this a trick question? If I say no you will reply that I must not be a Christian and if I say yes you will reply that I am blaspheming.
So like a fool I'll answer Yes but with the clarification that Jesus gave the Jews when they accused Him of making himself equal with the Father.
I do not make myself equal to Jesus (something I can't do) but He made himself equal to me so in that regard I exercise the same authority as he had with the help of the Holy Spirit. Greater works!!! WOW
GTB = Germantown Baptist
Don't "pick nits," Charles. We know she meant GBC. ;-)
whs,
It wasn't a trick question. Thanks.
sick of the truth
"4) Those that think you are nuts."
That group is not listed in Luke 12
whs.....
attempting to be kind, you are peddling spiritual credentials to a group that won't buy! Not sure there is unanimity, but to say you are nuts is being kind. The propositions you make are totally without merit. I don't think God needs you to reveal such tawdry heavenly gossip. It's not often He gives someone a glimpse of the other side, and I do not recall any that questioned the integrity of a saint who had gone on to his reward. I think you stretch the social grace of a believer by continuing to post such inflammatory comments. Maybe you should spend 40 days and nights fasting and praying before discussing this dramatic revelation.
SOTT
BTW I missed you yesterday. No one showed up, surprise! surprise!
I wore my favorite black slacks, starched baby blue long sleeve shirt. I am 60 yo and a bit over weight. I have grandfatherly totally grey hair. I shined my shoes for you.
You would have found me friendly, jovial, witty and that I dearly love the Lord. I equally anticipated meeting a fellow believer who loves the Lord. We would have heard each other out and a friendship would have ensued. Something that would have brought great pleasure to Christ!
Rather we continue this impersonal relationship with each other and all that fussing last night might have been avoided. So it's all your fault!!!
WHS,
I have a policy about meeting with people who claim to have demons coming out of their mouth. Here it is:
I don't do it.
Sorry you got all dressed up for nothing.
WHS, please go and see your doctor and tell him your story...I'm serious, not trying to be funny..I really do think that you need to talk to someone, ok? please?
eprov
I quess I am really in uncharted waters!!
sotl
I've already done that twice. I told them my stories (these are great local doctors) and they just encouraged me to continue being obedient to God. One did adjust my medications though.
I'm doing much better, thank u.
New BBC Open Forum said...
GTB = Germantown Baptist
Don't "pick nits," Charles. We know she meant GBC. ;-)
REPLY:
Thanx, NASS. Guess I've never heard Germantown Baptist Church (GBC) referred to as GTB (GermanTown Baptist).
sotl
"I have a policy about meeting with people who claim to have demons coming out of their mouth."
So let me get this straight you already knew that I had demons comming out of my mouth Sunday before 4:30 and that is the real reason why you did not meet me.
And a pedophile walked around for 17 years at Bellevue undetected.
1) I am more evil than a pedophile and easier discerned
2) You are the spiritual person that AR wasn't.
Please let's not continue this relationship. You would have like me!
:::: inserting twighlight zone music here:::::::::::::
sotl
My life is an open book what else can I say here today.
What is the real reason you did not meet with me? Please be honest!
My precious wife said, "honey, it was mother's day, I'm sure she had other plans."
What is your final answer?
off-line
you can all continue your daily dumping on SG
I'll check back later today.
I love you all with the love of the Lord. God bless.
Jesus is Lord! I Cor 12:3
Charlie...
How late was it last night???
Give me a break,friend.
I will be careful to use the right initials.
Thanks NASS!
With you know who floating around here spooking up the place.....Charlie,you need to be nice to me.
I am going to remember what 25+ said last night and not think I need to be in rescue mode....BUT I think this is scary stuff!
watching history,
If you will recall, i TOLD you that i would not be meeting with you, when i posted:
" DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH"
scroll back up and look...
And the REAL reason I did not meet with you is because it is HIGHLY offensive to me that anyone would think that a child being sexually molested is God's will. That's just ignorant talk.
There is nothing to discuss with you. I will not allow you to open up that wound with me by you trying to convince me that God wanted me to endure what I endured.
That, alone, is reason enuf for me to think that you are crazy. All the demon talk coming from your mouth is just icing on the cake.
Watchinghistory,
I agree with you 100% and I have some thoughts that I would like to share with you. Church yesterday was great Brother Steve was obviously filled with the Holy Spirit!
gmommylv said...
Charlie...
How late was it last night???
Give me a break,friend.
I will be careful to use the right initials.
Thanks NASS!
With you know who floating around here spooking up the place.....Charlie,you need to be nice to me.
REPLY:
gmommylv,
All is well. I was not familiar with the initials GTB, and merely asked for their meaning. I truly had no other agenda.
Oh, terrific!!!
Another demon talker thinking that SG is filled with the holy spirit!!
NO wonder they have no discernment!!!
sotl.
maybe just demons.
Yeah, Trusthisname and Watchinghistory...
Why don't ya'll get together and discuss among yourselves how wonderful it is when children are sexually molested. How God is pleased when his will is fulfilled.
And then come on out to some of the support groups around the city and share your thoughts with them.
I"m sure they would LOVE to hear what you two have come up with.
NOT!!
25+ said,
Direct divine revelation ended with the close of the cannon of scripture. Period.
Folks, 25+ was exactly correct: the cannon is closed. God speaks through His word.
Please turn your attention from watchinghisstory's dream (and his posts) and reconsider your pastor and his (or possibly his wife's) dream. According to some staff members, the "Amen Kelly" dream was not the only dream recounted since the Gaines arrived at Bellevue.
Having dreams and then making decisions about Bellevue based on those dreams is a serious matter. The dream episode occurred more than a year ago, but it has been lied about and ignored. I do not believe Bellevue can heal until we have thoroughly confronted and put that matter to rest.
Below is a post I made several months ago on the dream issue. Since that time I have come to realize my post left out one option: Mrs. Gaines may have had the dream instead of the pastor. Some BBC staff believe that to be the case.
I Had a Dream
Accusation Summary
Steve Gaines told Mark Dougharty he had a dream. He told this story with specific details of sorcery and demon possession. His story was recounted to David Smith and Bryson McQuiston. Those men relayed the story to PhilWeatherwax. Men were dispatched to deal with Mr. Kelly—“Amen Kelly.”
When Mark Sharpe was told of this story it raised serious questions in his mind and rightfully so. He began to request a meeting with the pastor, Mark Dougharty, David Smith, Bryson McQuiston, and Phil Weatherwax. The leadership refused to hold such a meeting.
Analysis
The most obvious concern is that if this story is true, the pastor said he had this dream and that he assigned meaning to it and took action accordingly. God does not in this age speak to men through dreams, visions or any direct communication apart from the Word of God, and that it is through the ministry of the Holy Spirit in illuminating God's word that believers are given understanding and direction for their lives. God's revelation is complete as contained in the sixty six books of the Bible. That means he does not have further things to reveal to nations or individuals that are not in the Bible. Further, the Bible is all sufficient in directing a person to finding and carrying out the will of God for their lives, without the need of a dream, vision or special communication from God in that manner. (At the end of this writing there is a short piece from John MacArthur on dreams.)
If Steve Gaines did not have the dream, then Mark Dougharty has lied repeatedly. He lied to David Smith and Bryson McQuiston and he allowed one of them to lie to Phil Weatherwax. If Steve did not have the dream, he absolutely knows Mark has lied and has done nothing about it. This is not a small lie; this was a major lie and an attack on the pastor. Please use your minds and think about the sequence of events, Bellevue. Mark Dougharty’s continued employment is strong evidence the dream story is true. If Mark made this up, he should have been fired immediately for such a vicious and slanderous attack on the pastor.
Mark Dougharty has since claimed he does not remember telling anyone about the dream, but “if they say I said it I must have said it.” (quote paraphrased) It does not get any more weasely than that.
Everyone should agree this entire scenario raises doubts about the beliefs, honesty, and mental fitness of some involved. Either the pastor said he had the dream or he didn’t.
There are other concerns connected to this story such as:
• The lack of concern for Mr. Kelly
• The pastor’s unwillingness to confront Mr. Kelly directly
• Bryan Miller’s apparent lie to hundreds in the December 3rd Communications Committee meeting regarding his conversation with Bryson McQuiston. He claimed Bryson’s concern was not with the dream. According to Deacon Chairman Miller (the ECS President) Brother Bryson’s only concern about this story was for Mr. Kelly. I believe Bryan “shaped” the truth for public consumption. Not only that, he rushed to the microphone to tell this falsehood. As Dr. Rogers said, “A half-truth is a whole lie.”
• The unwillingness of our leadership to gather all concerned parties in a room to discuss this matter and get to the bottom of it. Why would they not want to clear the pastor from such slander? This story has undermined Brother Steve as much as anything else. This story is what started the questioning by Mark Sharpe and others. If this is all a lie, why not gather everyone so the pastor can be cleared?
• The deacon body has collectively refused to get to the bottom of this. If they care about truth, they should force this matter to come to an honest conclusion. They should fear the Lord more than men. The truth will come out.
• The Bellevue staff has collectively refused to get to the bottom of this. If they care about truth, they should force this matter to come to an honest conclusion. They should fear the Lord more than men. The truth will come out.
Conclusion
Based on all the facts, the logical conclusion is as follows:
The Pastor had the dream and told Mark Dougharty about it. Mark in turn relayed the story to David Smith and Bryson McQuiston. Phil Weatherwax was later told the same story.
The pastor has since lied about this to the church body and he has dispatched representatives to lie about it. He placed Mark Dougharty in a position where he had to either tell the truth, which would have irreparably Steve’s credibility, or he could lie and damage his own credibility.
Sometimes the logical conclusion is false. If my conclusion is incorrect, then why not hold a meeting and get to the bottom of this? A simple denial by the pastor is insufficient. He either lied or a whole group of our staff have lied. We deserve to know the truth and we should demand it. This is not something that can be swept under the rug. I will remind the church of it until we get answers.
John MacArthur on dreams:
"It was not that unusual for God to reveal His plans in dreams to people in the past. Numbers 12:6 says that the Lord spoke to the prophets in visions and dreams. In Genesis 28:10-15 Jacob had a dream that promised him the land of Palestine. God spoke in dreams to Joseph (Gen. 37:5-10), Abimelech (Gen. 20:3), and Solomon (1 Kings 3:5-15). God revealed to Pharaoh in a dream that Egypt would experience seven years of plenty followed by seven years of famine (Gen. 41:1-8). Through a dream God indirectly provided encouragement to Gideon and his men (Judg. 7:13-15). God no longer speaks through dreams because He has completed His revelation. Hebrews 1:2 says He "hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son." But in former days, God chose to speak through dreams." [quoted from "The Forgotten Dream and the Unforgettable Daniel" (Daniel 2-1-30) ].
Now with that as a background I will attempt to answer your questions about dreams:
Does the Lord still use dreams today?
No, He uses His Word, with the Holy Spirit giving us an understanding of it.
What do our dreams mean today?
Nothing significant, nor anything that should ever cause us to make any decision based on them. They are best left alone and forgotten.
Is there a way to analyze our dreams to gain spiritual growth?
Absolutely not. Dreams are not to ever be trusted as anything but random thoughts. We are to use the written and infallible Word for our spiritual growth.
Are we vulnerable to spiritual attack in our sleep?
No, but Satan would like to make some people think so, and if they do respond then he can really cause a lot of havoc. Just ignore your dreams. To try to figure out secret messages or meanings in dreams is like putting trust in Astrology and Palm Readers.
I believe I gave you the right answers, answers that would please Christ. The "world" likes to get all wrapped up in the significance of dreams, but the "world' has no clue of the source of truth, so they accept almost anything. We are not of the world, for Christ has taken us out of the world.
doc....
I thot it but could never have put it so eloquently. Right on!
25+ and Doc Bellevue: Thanks for your knowledge. We must trust scripture.
One of the worst things that could ever happen to a pastor is when he can preach a sermon without spending time in the Word and then get folks who slap him on the back and give him an ataboy.
One of the worst things that can happen to a pastor is for him to tell a lie and get by with it and have his leadership bow down to him by not holding him accountable.
From the dream issue to hiding a pedophile, there are so many examples of lies, but the pastor has to this day refused to correct his lies.
Other staff members (for reasons unknown to protecting their jobs) have not stood for Truth.
We now have the key (keyless) leaders of BBC involved in the coverup and lies that has gone on now for over a year.
This is a dangerous situation for a church to call themselves a church. A foundation built on anything less than Truth will not be a Spirit filled church.
The foundation built on greed and lies will eventually crumble. The tower could even grow but eventually it will tumble unless Truth returns to Bellevue. We all know of many examples of growing towers that eventually fell because they were not built on Truth.
Until then, you will see folks continue to come out of the woodwork not making sense, demon speaking, etc.
It's interesting that this man mentions two doctors at BBC that encouaged him to continue on.
I know of a couple of doctors/deacons who have shown support for the sinful actions of Steve Gaines publicly, ie. open letters and an appearance at the sham of a business meeting.
The longer Steve Gaines continues, the more sin will be accepted which will result in more lives and reputations being ruined.
We should not be surprised at anything any longer.
"Direct divine revelation ended with the close of the cannon of scripture"
This is correct. The entire Reformation came about because Martin Luther was reading Romans and the Holy Spirit illuminated truth to him THROUGH THE READING OF THE WORD.
Don't believe any of it: Dreams, Visions, Furniture that is evil, etc. (Remember Steve and Donna's Christian Fung Shei exercise?)
docbellevue wrote:
"Please turn your attention from watchinghisstory's dream (and his posts) and reconsider your pastor and his (or possibly his wife's) dream. According to some staff members, the 'Amen Kelly' dream was not the only dream recounted since the Gaines arrived at Bellevue."
Thank you for reminding us of what's really important here, doc! "Watching's" had his 15 minutes of fame, and it's time to move on.
We've all heard the account of the "Amen Kelly" dream by now. Why not tell us about some of the others?
"The Pastor had the dream and told Mark Dougharty about it. Mark in turn relayed the story to David Smith and Bryson McQuiston. Phil Weatherwax was later told the same story."
And we see how many of those men are still employed at BBC today. Phil W. might want to watch out!
watchinghisstory,
I see that you chose not to respond to my last post, other than to make your general statement that you consider yourself a wise and faithful steward who does what God has told you to do. But unless you can verify the specifics of the content of you vision using scripture, there is no basis for anyone to believe it was from God.
I believe that you probably are the nice and likeable guy in person that you say you are. And I don't think you mean to do harm .. I think you genuinely believe that you have a message from God for BBC (though I believe that God has not really given you the message you think He has). But even if absolutely everyone agreed with your contention that AR was the real source of the problems at BBC, what would that change? He is not here, and nothing he did can be undone. I simply don't believe God would send you or anyone out with a message that has no point.
I have heard it said that a man with an argument cannot persuade a man with an experience. What do you suppose that means in this case?
Here's another " wierd thing" that has surfaced from Donna Gaines:
In January of 06, she was teaching at the Tuesday Ladies Bible Study.
She recounted an incident whereby she received word from God that some man on the Gardendale staff was " against" her husband.
She called up Steve and told him that this man was against him. Steve replied that was impossible because they were having lunch that day.
And then Donna told the crowd of women that " you know, in 3 weeks, we had to get rid of him"...
Ok, it wasn't a " dream" but here she has SG running the church based on HER " visions".
It is eerily familiar to the "amen kelly" episode.
Maybe BBC is having to cut back on parking lot security, too. These police report case numbers are from the CrimeMapper site:
0704009406ME Theft from Motor Vehicle 04/17/2007 2000 APPLING
0704011681ME Theft from Motor Vehicle 04/21/2007 2000 APPLING RD
Anyone know anything about a couple of Memphis police cruisers reportedly parked at the west entrance after services yesterday morning? Maybe another 15-year-old girl got on security's nerves. Or maybe it was nothing.
If what I dreamed all the time was a word from God, Steve Gaines would have been gone a long time ago.
If 100 people showed up at Steve Gaines' office and told him they had a Word from God in a dream that he should step down or be removed, he'd probably call the bouncers in and have the dreamers removed.
In his church view, only the pastor and the pastor's wife are allowed to have dreams that mean anything.
Any interpretation of a dream by any members who's dream doesn't line up with his dreams would be called outside the authority of Steve Gaines.
nathanb wrote:
"If 100 people showed up at Steve Gaines' office and told him they had a Word from God in a dream that he should step down or be removed, he'd probably call the bouncers in and have the dreamers removed."
And Dr. Rogers probably would have done the same thing... although I imagine if there had been 100 of them he would have listened to them first.
newbbc,
You are correct.
The point is that it would be crazy for people to say their dreams were absolutely from God.
For Steve Gaines or Donna to have dreams and visions and then interpret them as such is just as crazy.
There is another reason all this dream, vision stuff is not Biblical. On the cross the Veil was torn. All believers have the same access to Jesus Christ. He is our priest. We have His Word.
Why would He send us to WS to get information? How come Steve and Donna get 'special revelation' through dreams? They don't. Not outside of scripture, they don't. Do not be fooled by these people.
None of this passes the scripture test.
We have been gone a while and have visited several churches. I may have missed comments but has anyone mentioend Faith Baptist? We have been there several times and love the sweet spirit and have seen alot of Bellevue families htere. Just curious...
Lin said...
"Direct divine revelation ended with the close of the cannon of scripture"
docbellevue said...
25+ said,
Direct divine revelation ended with the close of the cannon of scripture. Period.
Where is this in the Bible? I referenced my Strong's and cannot locate this verse.
Mr. Page,
You won't find it in the scripture. Nowhere in God's word does it say that God has lost the ability to speak through dreams and visions, as I'm sure you know.
I'm very curious about your experience. Since you are not a Bellevue member, were you present when the woman applauded years ago, or was the vision the first time you became aware of the event?
Also, you mentioned Peter at Cornelius' house. Both Cornelius and Peter were engaged in earnest times of prayer when they received their visions from the Lord. They were not merely engaged in their normal devotional times, but they were seeking God's will in an unusual way.
Was there anything out of the ordinary when you received yours?
junkmail said
"So if someone comes to you claiming that God has spoken to them, test it ... If the claim is of such a nature that there is no scripture that can prove or verify the message, specifically and clearly and directly, that person's message simply does not pass the test."
junk99mail said...
watchinghisstory,
I see that you chose not to respond to my last post, other than to make your general statement
I am not being ask to prove my post by scripture but you are to test my post by scripture. I say what the Lord lays upon my heart and you test it by scripture and respond accordingly. I am responsible for what I say according to the test of scripture and you are responsible for your response.
I have absolutely no control on your response. Your response is between you and the Holy Spirit. And that is a very serious responsibility.
Everyone is judging me in haste almost immediately. What I am saying has come through several years of contemplation if not a lifetime of thoughtful prayer and searching. Several weeks or months of searching out what I say as to the truth, get beyond the emotion toward the messenger and hear the message.
I have the strong confidence that what I am saying is from the Lord. Ponder deeply as to what I am saying and test it by scripture and then react.
Wrong decisions are almost always made hastily.
"Direct divine revelation ended with the close of the cannon of scripture. Period."
WS, Please answer my previous question. If I am to believe your vision they why shouldn't I believe Benny Hinn's? Kenneth Copelands?
Do you see where this sort of thing leads? Chaos and confusion. And your favorite-Self determination.
I freely admit that I am a Cessationist. I do believe God works through events, circumstances, etc., but a vision? Dream? It is too scary to contemplate. Think of all the false teaching that comes from such 'visions'. Joseph Smith comes to mind. Mary Baker Eddy. The list goes on.
Scripture warns of false teachers all through the NT.
If your vision had contained ONLY specific scripture then I might try to believe you but right now, I am even questioning John Piper's latest revelation that God spoke only scripture to him. And I have tons of respect for Piper and his teaching. Now, I have to wonder.
solomon
"Was there anything out of the ordinary when you received yours?"
I have an answer for you but first clarify what you mean: "They were not merely engaged in their normal devotional times, but they were seeking God's will in an unusual way."
How can you separate the two?
"Ponder deeply as to what I am saying and test it by scripture and then react."
What scriptures are you referring to that will affirm your vision?
What is the big deal about a dream it could have been a day dream, a night dream or mere fanasy. If the Pastor said it or someone said that he said it and tried to cover up their own lie, who knows and who cares; God is big enough to take up for Himself and get revenge where it need be. One thing WatchingHistory said that does make sense. Dr. Rogers hand picked PW and as we all know he also hand picked Gaines and you can not seperate him from this present situation because he had a significant part. I personally believe Dr. Rogers knew what he was doing in both cases. Does this mean that I defend PW? NO NO NO! I do think he most likely can be compared to David (if he has truely repented). Of course you all know how I feel about Brother Steve: He is a man's after God's own heart and he has NOT experienced a great moral failure or anything worthy of all the junk thrown at him. Dr. Rogers was not stupid and he was not out of God's will.
WS, Please answer my previous question. If I am to believe your vision they why shouldn't I believe Benny Hinn's? Kenneth Copelands?
First, I don't like being in the same category as these men.
My answer to you is the same as I replied to Junkmail.
Apply the same evaluation (assuming you are truly sincere - there is a modern day fad to be opposed to these charismatic preachers and fads of any sort are insincere) to me as you judge them.
I would hope you would judge me not by fad but by sincere seeking.
Now if you are truly a cessationist why would you even bother to enquire as to my post.
Mr. Page,
Morning and evening were the normal prayer times, but Peter evidently prayed in the middle of the day too (Acts 10:9-10). It was during this time he received the vision of the sheet.
Also, Cornelius sought the Lord in an unusual way since, as a Gentile, he prayed to him at the regular prayer times.
I have my own devotional times when I meet with God, as do most Christians. (You mentioned that you walk your dog during your time with the Lord.)
What I'm wondering is if there was anything out of your ordinary routine on the day that you had your vision?
It5 wqas a pretty normal day.
seekinghiswill, aka/ taptaptap
said:
He is a man's after God's own heart and he has NOT experienced a great moral failure or anything worthy of all the junk thrown at him.
SOTL says:
Wonder if you would feel the same way if you learned during that 6 month period that Gaines KNEW about PW, if your grandchild had been molested. But since it did not affect YOU or YOURS...you can afford to have such a cavalier attitude.
You will answer for that attitude one day.
OH, by the way, ms. tapptapptapp, why do you think that mrs. R. has decided to worship elsewhere?
solomon
I have a response for you but will await tomorrow as I have to get some sleep.
Some of us have to earn a meager living!
Good night all!!
oh PUHLEEZE, solomon, don't tell me that you are now signing onto WH's vision that sexual molestation is in God's will.
It5 wqas a pretty normal day.
I was holding a hamburger while typing!! Ha ha
sotl
Your victimization interferes with your objectivity and then you impose it on others, interfering with their objectivity.
Rise above it in Christ's liberty!
I won't allow your victimization to interfere with my objectivity.
And hopefully others won't either.
finally off-line
:::: wishing I could climb thru this computer::::
WHS has something to say, and I'm willing to listen.
I'm equally willing to listen to anyone else who is willing to share what the Lord has shown to them and consider it against scripture.
God's ways are not our ways, and his thoughts are not our thoughts (his thoughts are always above, though, and not below our human thoughts). Perhaps the more outrageous someone's beliefs seem to us, the more in line with God's thoughts they are...
So WH would have us believe that PW was obeying God when he somomized his son?
And all those others in prison, were they listening to God when they murdered, raped, sodomoized?
If what WH says is true, then that pretty much gives all the MAMBLA (Man Boy Love Association) freaks the go ahead to do whatever they want to children...after all, they, too, can claim that it is God's will, and they are just following orders.
That sounds like the mind of a criminal.
Makes you wonder what SOMEONE is trying to justify.
John MacArthur wrote some helpful comments about Charasmatic chaos:
see: http://72.14.209.104/search?
q=cache:TJ7cg5tywmMJ:www.tms.edu/
tmsj/tmsj14h.pdf+god+speaking+
today+further+revelation+
macarthur&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd
=5&gl=us&ie=UTF-8
A few excerpts:
"The truth is, there is no fresher or more intimate revelation than Scripture. God does not need to give private revelation to help us in our walk with Him. “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim 3:16-17). Scripture is sufficient. It offers all we need for every good work. Christians on both sides of the charismatic fence must realize a vital truth: God’s revelation is complete for now. The canon of Scripture is closed. As the apostle John penned the final words of the last book of the NT, he recorded this warning: “I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book” (Rev 22:18-19). Then the Holy Spirit added a doxology and closed the canon."
....
"From the time of the apostles until the present, the true church has always believed that the Bible is complete. God has given His revelation, and now Scripture is finished. God has spoken. What He gave is complete, efficacious, sufficient, inerrant, infallible, and authoritative. Attempts to add to the Bible, and claims of further revelation from God have always been characteristic of heretics and cultists, not the true people of God.
Although charismatics deny that they are trying to add to Scripture, their views on prophetic utterance, gifts of prophecy, and revelation really do just that. As they add—however unwittingly—to God’s final revelation, they undermine the uniqueness and authority of the Bible. New revelation, dreams, and visions are considered as binding on the believer’s conscience as the book of Romans or the gospel of John."
....
"It has always been important to be able to separate God’s Word from that which is false. God worked through a historical process to establish the authenticity of the canon so that the whole church might have a clear standard. If we now throw out that historical standard and redefine inspiration and revelation, we undermine our own ability to receive God’s truth. If we subvert the uniqueness of the Bible, we will have no way of distinguishing God’s voice from man’s. Eventually, anyone could say anything and claim it is God’s Word, and no one would have the right to deny it. We are perilously close to that situation even now.
The Holy Spirit is working mightily in the church today, but not in the way most charismatics think. The Holy Spirit’s role is to empower us as we preach, teach, write, talk, witness, think, serve, and live. He does lead us into God’s truth and direct us into God’s will for our lives. But He does it through God’s Word,never apart from it. To refer to the Holy Spirit’s leading and empowering ministry as inspiration or revelation is a mistake. To use phrases such as “God spoke to me,”
...
It's 4 days till the FULL MOON. What is going on tonight?
Besides the fact that the canon is closed...here's the problem with direct revelation: what do you do if your revelation conflicts with someone else's revelation about the same thing? Whose revelation is real/right, and whose isn't? If I say that the Lord told me that tomorrow the Mississippi River will run backwards, but you come back and say, hey, I had a word from the Lord about the MS River and He told ME the river would disappear tomorrow...how can either prove that what they received was from God, when tomorrow the MS River is still there and flowing in it's normal direction? Get the point?...it's all subjective. The Word is OBJECTIVE TRUTH. The only true and reliable revelation we have. Jesus Christ IS the final Word.
Thank You 25+yrs. I always appreciate your posts.
Thanks for the encouragement Charlie. I appreciate yours also.
Well.....
All these years of pain, overcompensating, and shame...
when
ALL I had to do was "RISE ABOVE IT IN CHRIST's LIBERTY."
Why did God wait so long to speak thru this man.
I guess we should get this news out to all the men, women, and children suffering today.
That's about as helpful as insulting someone going thru trauma by telling them to pray...as if they are not CRYING out to the Lord.
Self righteous,know it all people masked as Christians make me ill.
All healed now...yea,right.
25+ is right. This guy is having too much fun.
I hope the minister he talked to totally turns on him.
Did I sign in to the blog for the Sci-Fi channel by mistake?
You have entered...the twilight zone.....
stayedonthee,
It's been a strange night.
All of John MacArthur's 1994 book "Charasmatic Chaos" is worth reading--and relevant to the discussion here imo.
Actually...it's been a strange day, imo.
God is not the author of confusion......
Has anybody seen Rod Serling?
25+: Fabulous book...there is also a tape/CD that goes with it that is unbelievable. Get it too, everyone...it's worth hearing.
(by the way...you've got mail)
The entire day at GBC was glorious. Even more so than the other 2 or 3 times I've visited. Everyone is so loving and encouraging. (GBC'ers and BBC refugees)Was the sermon at BBC really as bad as I am told? Wives submit no matter how abusive the husband may be???
StayedOnThee said...
The entire day at GBC was glorious.
REPLY:
I thought so too.
I'm going to sleep now but I promise not to share any dreams I have.
off-line
Just looked at the sermon notes. I would think on Mothers Day,
women would be honored.
Beside how "mickey mouse" those sermon notes are,
they seem really backward and slanted....typical.
No wonder SG and DC get along so well!
In The Last Days......if we believe Acts 2:21, do we have to believe 2:17?
Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Acts2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day.
2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Why: As will we all.
It makes me confused that you see things I don't see because I see a search for the truth, righteous anger, compassion for those struggling, and love.
Why: I think not. No wait....I KNOW not.
DREAMS???? I was told as a child if, you told a dream before breakfast it would come true. So, WH did you tell this dream before or after breakfast?
Study "Thy Word to be approved."
I feel like I'm watching TBN reading all this junk about dreams.JMHO
For what it is worth, as we test the spirit, one needs to remember that God was not overly concerned about the children in Jerusalem when He used Babylon to crush them for their sin.....corporate sin.
As I posted before, some pretty terrible things happened then. They were a result of God's judgement resulting from the people's rebellion and sin. We can't blame the loss of the children on God any more than we can blame what happens today including pedophiles. God's judgement is a result of our sin. Innocent people were caught up in the judgement of Jerusalem and Samaria. Innocent people will be caught up in His judgement of the church today.
So, in my opinion, God certainly does not condone or aprove of harming children. But it doesn't look like He allows anything to get in his way when He brings judgement on a sinful people. In the end it is the peoples fault not God's. He is keeping his promises......Deuteronomy 28, Romans 1.
Also, as we evaluate WH's statements and claims, lets remember that God is well known for delivering judgement on kingdoms led by men that were what we think of as godly men....Solomon and Hezakiah come to mind. God had mercy on them and punishment was delivered to the kingdom after they were gone......
Having said all this, we still need to focus on the main thing. The apostate church and God's eminant judgement on it. Romans 1 is pretty clear and if you look at it you will see the signs of His hands all over it.....
Greetings Newbbcopenforumers
My quest for Mexico continues. I had a small setback in the state of La. It seems that the La. State Troopers had been forewarned that I would be traveling through the ‘mosquito’ state. As the Squire was still unable to shift out of first gear, it took 2 weeks to travel the I-20 corridor through northern La. In that period I was pulled over 17 times for various moving (or lack thereof) violations. I suppose the officers were church going fellas, for in each stop I was extended the right foot of christian fellowship. I have also found out that I may have set a new Guinness record for most consecutive days being pistol whipped. After a 3 day vacation in Shreveport’s luxurious Caddo Parish Correctional Facility (where as luck would have it, I ran into some of my Crip Club brethren who promptly gave me a warm ‘soap in a sock’ beating) I was again on my way...of course only after I gave some more blood for gas money.
I am now in a town called Corsicana, Tx. I have traded the Squire for a plush ‘81' El Camino. I did so because the Squire, with all it bells and whistles, was just too uptown and pretentious, which I believe was the cause for attracting all the law enforcement. I have opened up an office in an abandoned Dairy Queen, whose walk in freezer makes the perfect bachelor pad. I figure that Texas should not be deprived of my medical expertise even if I’m just passing through. Also, there is a slaughter house just on the outskirts of town, and the lure of fresh tripe is just too much to pass up. I’ve also been able to make a few bucks in some back alley rooster fighting. I almost won my bout this evening, but the rooster knocked me out in the 3rd round, though I protested that it was just a slip. Happy ending though, as I had him (over) for dinner.
As yesterday was mother’s day, I am reminded of the words of my dear mama Loney: “Billy, you may not be the smartest, and you may not be the most handsome, and you may not be the cleanest, and you may not smell that good, and you may not have the most teeth, and you may not have all of your right ear, and lord only knows how you ended up a vestigial tail, but you’re my son, and the law says I’m responsible for you til you’re 16 or so, so you can keep on sleeping in the crawl space below the front porch for now.” Cockel warming words, Mama, cockel warming words.
William T. Loney, MD
Thanks for stopping by, Dr. Looney! Had any interesting dreams lately? Just askin' ;)
ezekiel,
I'm not sure what you are driving at, but it sounds like you may be agreeing with watching's contention that what is going on at BBC is a result of God's judgment on AR. And maybe even that you are implying that when children experience abuse it is some sort of part of God's judgment. But those things don't sound like you ... please tell me I'm reading you wrong. One person with watching's viewpoints is more than enough! :)
Why you are an idiot,
I wouldn't bring my kids into this if you care about your great BBC and leadership......
you can be as stupid as you like and lap up those backward elementary sermons...completely your choice.
concernedsbcer:
funny you should ask about the dreams. Just two nights ago, I had this intense dream 'that I could not fall asleep'. I later realized that I was still awake.
WTL
Also,
Texas is quite confusing...I keep hearing that this is the 'Lone Store' state...however, I am certain that I have seen many more than one store.
WTL
Ezekiel...
Please ponder one of the verses that you quoted:
2:16 But this is that...
The last days began with the Lord's being "cut off" (See Daniel 9:24f)--they didn't begin with 20th century charasmatic claims.
2:16 But this is that...
2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy...
There had been 400 "silent years." Then God sent His Son and also gave NT Apostles, teachers, and prophets (Agabus, Paul, see Acts 13:1f, James 5, Revelation).
2:16 But this IS (1900 years ago) that...
___________
Jude 3 is also extremely relevant for your consideration. Read MasArthur's book I mentioned above if you want some solid teaching on this.
John MacArthur wrote some helpful comments about Charasmatic chaos:
"The truth is, there is no fresher or more intimate revelation than Scripture. God does not need to give private revelation to help us in our walk with Him. “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim 3:16-17). Scripture is sufficient. It offers all we need for every good work. Christians on both sides of the charismatic fence must realize a vital truth: God’s revelation is complete for now. The canon of Scripture is closed. As the apostle John penned the final words of the last book of the NT, he recorded this warning: “I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book” (Rev 22:18-19). Then the Holy Spirit added a doxology and closed the canon."
....
"From the time of the apostles until the present, the true church has always believed that the Bible is complete. God has given His revelation, and now Scripture is finished. God has spoken. What He gave is complete, efficacious, sufficient, inerrant, infallible, and authoritative. Attempts to add to the Bible, and claims of further revelation from God have always been characteristic of heretics and cultists, not the true people of God.
Although charismatics deny that they are trying to add to Scripture, their views on prophetic utterance, gifts of prophecy, and revelation really do just that. As they add—however unwittingly—to God’s final revelation, they undermine the uniqueness and authority of the Bible. New revelation, dreams, and visions are considered as binding on the believer’s conscience as the book of Romans or the gospel of John."
....
"It has always been important to be able to separate God’s Word from that which is false. God worked through a historical process to establish the authenticity of the canon so that the whole church might have a clear standard. If we now throw out that historical standard and redefine inspiration and revelation, we undermine our own ability to receive God’s truth. If we subvert the uniqueness of the Bible, we will have no way of distinguishing God’s voice from man’s. Eventually, anyone could say anything and claim it is God’s Word, and no one would have the right to deny it. We are perilously close to that situation even now.
The Holy Spirit is working mightily in the church today, but not in the way most charismatics think. The Holy Spirit’s role is to empower us as we preach, teach, write, talk, witness, think, serve, and live. He does lead us into God’s truth and direct us into God’s will for our lives. But He does it through God’s Word,never apart from it. To refer to the Holy Spirit’s leading and empowering ministry as inspiration or revelation is a mistake. To use phrases such as “God spoke to me,”
...
Dr. Loney,
You have misunderstood what you heard. Texas is not the Lone Store state, it is the Loan Store state. I am sure you have noticed (and most likely taken advantage of) the many pawn shops of Texas.
25yrs@bbc, thank you for providing some of John MacArthur’s sound doctrine to this discussion. One of his books, "Charasmatic Chaos" sheds a lot of light on this topic.
Watching His Story has craftily diverted the forum’s attention away from the more serious issues of BBC and onto his “vision” as the main topic of conversation. He’s either one very sick person or he’s playing a game by toying with scripture and possibly causing some to doubt. I rather suspect the latter. If WHS has something further to say then let him say it – spit it out and be done with it so the forum can return to more serious matters. However, I must give WHS his due -- he is clever, and I dare say, even beguiling. I believe Eve dealt with a creature with similar qualities in the Garden of Eden.
I’ve lurked frequently for months and I appreciate this forum and NASS and all the work she does to maintain it. You folks have been a blessing to me through the trials and tribulations of watching BBC being overrun by Gainesville.
I’ve been a member of BBC since 1974, and I too, am a wounded sheep. I’m visiting other churches, GBC and a couple of others, and I will likely move my membership soon, as that seems to be the way the Lord is leading.
May God bless you all.
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