Well, the $64,000 question has finally been answered! For weeks people have been asking why the March 25th "business" meeting was adjourned so abruptly. Now we have the answer... or at least an excuse.
"Seekinghiswill" wrote:
"Brothers and sisters in Christ should be able to express their views and there is a proper place and time for a calm, peaceful meeting but it was obvious that the business meetings was not the right timing because there were rising tempers from both sides which would have produced no good fruits. For this reason we were for the meeting to be dismissed. I look forward to the time when we all can sit down and have a meeting with the Judge."
Oh, really? You know, I wholeheartedly agree with the first part of that statement. Church members should be able to express their views at the proper place and time, but I would hope that time and place would be sometime and somewhere this side of heaven!
I can only assume "seekinghiswill" is referring to the March 25th "monkey business" meeting. If so, I must have missed all those "rising tempers." The meeting I attended was quite calm, and the people participating in the meeting (bringing motions, etc.), from everything I saw, were always respectful of each other. There was that ugly little display by Donna Gaines' sister at the very end and the woman heard praying loudly during the opening "prayer circles" for the Lord to "deal with those... who would divide... our... church," but I digress.
"Seekinghiswill" wrote:
"Brothers and sisters in Christ should be able to express their views and there is a proper place and time for a calm, peaceful meeting but it was obvious that the business meetings was not the right timing because there were rising tempers from both sides which would have produced no good fruits. For this reason we were for the meeting to be dismissed. I look forward to the time when we all can sit down and have a meeting with the Judge."
Oh, really? You know, I wholeheartedly agree with the first part of that statement. Church members should be able to express their views at the proper place and time, but I would hope that time and place would be sometime and somewhere this side of heaven!
I can only assume "seekinghiswill" is referring to the March 25th "monkey business" meeting. If so, I must have missed all those "rising tempers." The meeting I attended was quite calm, and the people participating in the meeting (bringing motions, etc.), from everything I saw, were always respectful of each other. There was that ugly little display by Donna Gaines' sister at the very end and the woman heard praying loudly during the opening "prayer circles" for the Lord to "deal with those... who would divide... our... church," but I digress.
Let's take a look at the rest of the motions (of which I'm aware) that members were poised to make:
1. Motion on Non Disclosure Agreements for the Staff
I move that staff members of Bellevue Baptist Church shall discontinue the practice of requesting or requiring staff members to sign any kind of non-disclosure agreement in regard to their employment at Bellevue Baptist Church; and that any staff member or former staff member having signed such a non-disclosure agreement shall likewise be released, in writing, from said agreement.
2. Motion on Disqualification of Ministers For Sexual Misconduct
I move that we affirm our belief in the scriptural authority of I Timothy 3 and Titus 1 for the qualifications for ministerial service, and that we affirm to our larger community, committees and staff, that sexual misconduct is a reason for disqualification from ministerial service within the authority of scriptural qualifications set out in I Timothy 3 and Titus 1.
Remember, this is the one that Steve Gaines said is "only a guideline."
3. Motion on Committees - Membership
I make the following motion regarding committee membership:
No church member may serve on more than one committee, elected or ex officio, including ad hoc committees, unless serving on a second committee or ad hoc committee in only a non-voting capacity. Laypersons should not serve more than three years on committees, followed by at least one year without serving on any committee, similar to the deacon rotation.
No member shall chair the same, or different committees more than once in any three consecutive years. For example, if chairing Committee A this year, the member cannot chair Committee A or any other committee the next year or following year.
No member may serve on the same committee for more than 3 years in any 10-year period. This does not restrict the member from serving on other committees during the ten years.
4. Motion on Financial Expenditures
I move that any financial expenditure will be subject to review by any member of Bellevue Baptist Church, upon request, at reasonable times and with reasonable notice.
5. Motion On Congregational Meetings Seeking Reconciliation
I move that Bellevue Baptist Church conduct one or more fair and impartial congregational meetings, to include our Senior Pastor and ministerial staff, as necessary to give its members the opportunity to hear both sides of the issues that continue to divide the church body and with the first meeting to be held within the next four weeks.
And the one that was actually brought to the floor and passed...
6. Motion on Committees – Conflicts of Interest
I make the following motion regarding conflicts of interest for committee membership:
1. That potential committee members shall disclose any conflict of interest, real or potential, in regard to the committee for which they are nominated. Such statements should disclose:
If the committee nominee, or member(s) of the nominee's immediate family have business relationships with, or are a partner, officer, or key employee of an enterprise doing business with Bellevue Baptist Church, or the officers or key employees of Bellevue Baptist Church, or the immediate family of officers or key employees of Bellevue Baptist Church.
2. No member shall be allowed to participate in a committee review or decision that would have a financial impact upon the member or member’s immediate family.
Conflicts should be avoided by the Committee on Committees or other nominating entities when proposing committee members. The intent of this motion is to avoid conflicts or potential conflicts, for example:
A member, doing business with the church, should not be placed upon a committee that is materially related to the business being conducted.
The important question is, have we seen any changes in committee memberships because of this motion being passed by the congregation?
Can anyone explain why "no good fruits" would (or could) have come from these motions being brought to the floor in a calm, respectful manner?
494 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 494 Newer› Newest»Karen: From a fellow friend with lots of grace as well, PLEASE be careful!
Karen,
Sorry to hear about your accident this morning & I do hope you are ok. I need to ask you are if you are seeing black snakes or having dreams or stuff.
Someone else is having visions and I thought it might be a bump on the head ( see wizard of oz) or a late night run at taco bell.
Just wondering : )
NBBOC
you have mail.
whs and byebelle,
You both have mail!
Karen...
Not to feel bad...we are all going to see 'the light' sooner or later. This group has just seen it 'sooner'. You take care of yourself and buy one of those rubber mats for the tub/shower.
Ima
Sorry I did not get right back to you about your questions and the SBC. My wife had me pulling weeds in her flower garden.
Dr. Spradlin and Bro. Sorell must still have their membership at BBC which is OK if they are working temporarily at GBC. The messengers, a max of ten per church, register as messengers at the SBC and are given name tags and voting cards so that they can vote on any motion brought to the assembly. It has been customary for both men and women to be elected by SB churches to go as representative. As long as they are members in good standing of the church they are representing they can represent their church. However, they must be elected by the church they have membership in. This is the reason Dr. Spaldrin and Bro. Sorellen can't go as messengers from GBC.
Here's the gotcha though, they must be elected by the church they have membership in and since BBC can't have a "special called meeting" since the bylaws don't designate the conditions, the BBC delegates will not be legal delegates. RRO states that any motion made must be in agreement with the Constitution and Bylaws. A motion passed that is not in agreement with the Bylaws even if the motion carries with a unanimous vote is null and void.
So if they ignore parliamentary procedures and the delegates come to the convention, a point of order should be made at the convention when it is called to order and these delegates should be disqualified as messengers and sent home.
Hope this helps.
NBBOC
haven't received anything???
I'm on my way to church and we are having our monthly business meeting. I pray that some day BBC will have the same privilege.
byebelle,
I just resent it.
Karen said...
Is Mike Spradlin still a member of Bellevue or did he move his membership when he was selected as the Interim Pastor at GBC? I really don't know what the procedure on that is so if you know, please enlighten me.
Interim Pastors normally keep their membership at their home church. It's the same as if they were preaching at various churches week after week, like a traveling evangelist.
- one more question: What do the "delegates" do at the SBC?
The SBC meeting is basically just a big business meeting, with some preaching interspersed. It is used to select the convention President (who makes appointments to various denominational leadership positions), to vote on major decisions impacting the denomination as a whole, and to approve various resolutions intended to make a public statement of the position of Southern Baptist as a whole on current social/cultural issues.
Soooo... the Messengers are sent from each church to represent the interests of the church and to vote their own conscience on any matters presented. In keeping with the Baptist doctrine of priesthood of the believer, women Messengers are afforded the same rights and privileges as men Messengers.
The reason the delegates are called Messengers is that in the original concept they were not sent to the convention to vote as directed by their congregation (which is what is implied by the word "delegate"); rather they were sent to vote as led by their own conscience and the Holy Spirit, and then to return to their churches as "Messengers" from the convention meeting back to the churches as to what took place and their personal reactions to it, and to share (if they so desired) how they voted on issues. In modern day practice, most churches send people that they expect to represent the views of the congregation that sends them, and if anyone reports back to the congregation on what took place it is the pastor (who almost always is selected as one of the Messengers). It isn't all that unusual for a large church with a big budget to send the wives of pastors and key leaders as Messengers, but in smaller and more rural churches most of the Messengers are men who are in positions of church leadership (most often the pastor and some deacons).
Hope this helps -- just another dry history & church polity lesson from yours truly. I don't know much about being a good Christian, but I know denominational structure and church politics! That's kinda sad, huh?
Lynn said...
Ya'll have also learned what a moonbat is :D
Hmmm... I thought you were the one who introduced everyone else on this blog to that word!!
Moonbat.
Nass: Everytime I see that I have to laugh! Thanks, Lynn, for helping us learn about a new species! :)
It is rather cute, isn't it? That's the "barking" variety.
I hope his bark is worse than his bite.............
Sorry...we can be serious now.....
:)
karen,
Ya gotta love a lady who is graceful and well coordinated!!!!! I pray that you are OK!!
I have an honest question for you. Word on the street is that BBC is very low on funds and dipping into reserves to keep the lights on. As summer approaches, more people are moving their families to other churches. What do you think will happen when the money runs out?
junkey said...
Hope this helps -- just another dry history & church polity lesson from yours truly. I don't know much about being a good Christian, but I know denominational structure and church politics! That's kinda sad, huh?
junk,
I learned from your 'dry' lesson.
And I wish I knew as 'little' as you about being a good Christian.
Be blessed, friend.
NBBCOF said
byebelle,
I just resent it.
Piglet says:
Now don't go getting resentful. :)
churchmouse said...
I have an honest question for you. Word on the street is that BBC is very low on funds and dipping into reserves to keep the lights on. As summer approaches, more people are moving their families to other churches. What do you think will happen when the money runs out?
Churchmouse,
I'm not totally convinced that's a completely honest question, but since we shouldn't just ignore one another I'll bite.
Bellevue has stated that they have $20 million in reserve. The current year's budget is $24 mil, so if the contributions were zero this year, the reserves will be depleted in less than one year.
More likely, since attendance is down about 20%, giving is also down by a similar amount. If so, the reserve will cover the difference for at least 5-10 years if the attendance remains constant.
As for what to expect if the money runs low, it should be the same as any other organization. Budget cuts, layoffs, liquidation of assets, etc. Maybe we'll go to a single Sunday morning service.
I wouldn't wait for signs of financial difficulty to make a decision, though. Go wherever God is leading you.
I'd like to see you stay at BBC, personally.
piglet,
Reference.
cowboy,
I like your screen name.
The Mannings are still BBC members, and so is Jim Haywood. (The reason Jim does not sing in the GBC choir is that he is not a GBC member.)
Who's behind this group? It is not Tim Coggins. It is not Josh Manning. It is not Jim Haywood.
Who is it?
By group, I meant IDC.
Solomon,
Are you sure 20 million was the amount DC gave at the budget meeting??
I thought that was the amount 1 year ago??
I will check with my finance minded friend that asked that question of DC.
DC in no way said 30 million was in reserve at the budget meeting when specifically asked....
Are you now saying DC lied to the people at the budget meeting?
How shameful. What hate filled gossip mongers you and Dc are.
Shameful!
Nass: Do you have a boat in Minnesota? You might need to get a trolling motor. Just sayin'
gmommy,
Was that directed at me?
I've read on the blog that there was $30 million in reserve.
At the business meeting, the amounts stated were 8 million in designated reserve, and 10 million in undesignated reserve (or about $20 million total).
If your friend can verify, it will be helpful.
Churchmouse said...
I have an honest question for you. Word on the street is that BBC is very low on funds and dipping into reserves to keep the lights on. As summer approaches, more people are moving their families to other churches. What do you think will happen when the money runs out?
8:09 PM, May 16, 2007
If its any help, the Career group isn't taking the church bus on its trip down to Gulf Shores next weekend citing the expense of the buses.
cowboy wrote:
"The woman who said that she saw Manning sitting behind Mrs. Gaines' family was correct."
SO WHAT??? Was he sitting there thumping Dempsey Dodds on the back of the head or something? I doubt he even knew who they were.
"I also was near by and I also saw Mr. Haywood stand up and vote along with some others who had already moved their membership."
Jim Haywood is still very much a member of BBC and had every right to vote in the "business" meeting. By all means, name names if you saw non-members voting, and we'll try to confirm that.
"Manning and several of those in opposition to our pastor were walking here and there positioning themselves."
"Walking here and there positioning" themselves for what exactly? Who were these "several" and how do you know they were "in opposition to our pastor"?
"I agree that the meeting needed to cease because it was going down hill fast."
Yeah, that "sexual purity of ministers" motion really was threatening to make that meeting go right down the tubes, wasn't it? And, gasp! Quarterly business meetings! Perish the thought!
Or perhaps it was the fact that "the victim" was approaching the microphone which posed the real threat. Wonder what he could have possibly said?
"I also know that Mrs. Rogers is and has been friends with the Mannings for a very long time and I was not surprized that she took sides."
Yes, they are said to be old friends. SO WHAT??? Are you saying Mrs. Rogers is so incapable of thinking for herself and can be so easily swayed that she'd "take sides" just because her friends have an opinion? If I were you, I wouldn't dare go there, sir!
Does anyone know if IDC, Inc. is still in business? No word from them since March and no response to my email.
I was told that total attendance for both services this past Sunday AM was around 5400. Can anybody confirm this?
Warming up the motor right now, concernedsbcer. Thank you.
I nominate NASS for MVD!!!
Chanel 5 at 10
Rash of crime at Bellevue Baptist Church will be reported.
Charlie Fox said...
I nominate NASS for MVD!!!
MVD??
Motor Vehicle Division?
Mississippi Valley Division?
Ministerstvo Vnutrennikh Del?
Micro Vertex Detector?
Microscopy Vendors Database?
Mutant Variety Database?
I'm probably going to regret asking this, but "MVD"?
Solomon,
I did ask you if you were sure about the 20 million because my friend with a background in finance (so it is all very interesting to him)
asked that question and wrote down DC's answer along with a lot of other things from the budget meeting.
I haven't been able to reach them yet to confirm exactly what he wrote in his notes.
But the 30 million (someone else put that number out)I am sure was not what DC said.
I THINK the purpose of the gray haired gentleman who made the motion to give 3 million to Mid America at the business meeting was to get that reserve number out there. Many remember that it was alot larger last year.
I am not the numbers person....but a close friend is.
His idea after being at the budget meeting is that they could supplement for 2-3 years.
MOST VALUABLE DETROLLER!!!!!!!!!!
padroc wrote:
"Rash of crime at Bellevue Baptist Church will be reported."
Really? Wonder what SG failed to report now?
Or... it could have something to do with these police reports filed for 2000 Appling Rd.:
0704009406ME Theft from Motor Vehicle 04/17/2007
0704011681ME Theft from Motor Vehicle 04/21/2007
0705008126ME Theft from Motor Vehicle 05/14/2007
0705008147ME Theft from Motor Vehicle 05/14/2007
0705008167ME Theft from Motor Vehicle 05/14/2007
Perhaps the security budget has been cut back because of reductions in giving.
Oooooh, why thank you, Charles!
What keeps a church afloat isn't money..or better yet, ask the question what makes or constitutes a church?...buildings?...staff?..meeting for services?...if that's all it takes then by all means BBC will never cease to exist...low funds or not. But as far as the model of the NT church goes, I think BBC has well departed from the way, and no amount of money can fix that.
Dear Truthseekers: My dear pastor passed away almost 2 years ago (just before Dr. Rogers) and one Sunday he used this in his sermon. We were going through a rough divorce at the time and my daughter asked him for a copy. It is one of her treasured possessions. I thought you might like it, especially you, Lynn.
One Day at a Time
One day at a time, with its failures and fears,
With its hurts and mistakes, with its weakness and tears,
One day at a time we must meet and must bear.
One day at a time to be patient and strong;
To be calm under trial and sweet under wrong;
Then the toiling shall pass and its sorrow shall cease;
It shall darken and die, and the night shall bring peace.
One day at a time- but the day is so long,
And the heart is not brave, and the soul is not strong,
O Thou merciful Christ, be Thou near all the way;
Give courage and patience and strength for the day.
Swift cometh the answer, so clear and so sweet;
"Yea, I will be with thee, thy troubles to meet;
I will not forget thee, nor fail thee, nor grieve;
I will not forsake thee; I will never leave."
Not yesterday's load we are called on to bear,
Nor the morrow's uncertain and shadowy care;
Why should we look forward or back with dismay?
Our needs as our mercies, are but for the day.
One day at a time, and the day is His day;
He hath numbered its hours, though they haste or delay.
His grace is sufficient; we walk not alone;
As the day, so the strength that He giveth His own.
-Annie Johnson Flint
Charlie Fox said...
MOST VALUABLE DETROLLER!!!!!!!!!!
Oh ... I kinda liked Mutant Variety Database ....
Quote from Channel 5's story:
"'Cause you feel so safe at church,' says Mason. 'You don't think anybody's going to break-in,' she adds."
Hello? Wake up, dear. This is Memphis. It's a big city with big-city crime. Criminals know no boundaries. Put your valuables out of sight (or leave them at home), and lock your doors. It may not prevent your car from being broken into, but at least it won't provide an open invitation.
NBBOC,
You have mail.
junk,
You are just way to intellectual!!!! LOL
NASS, good job of earning your nomination.
I just heard on the news about a guy who burned his baby by putting her in a microwave for about 20 seconds. Yes, I know, very sick and disgusting, but I only share it because of what the guy said when arrested. He said he was a minister and God guided his actions. Draw your own conclusions.
I know I might be a little out of line on this one...but can someone please shut Fred Phelps up for good!?!?!? That nutjob preacher from Kansas has the guts to protest at JERRY FALWELL'S FUNERAL!!!!
http://www.godhatesfags.com/fliers/may2007/20070515_jerry-falwell-funeral.pdf
concernedSBCer said...
\
Nass: Do you have a boat in Minnesota? You might need to get a trolling motor. Just sayin'
9:23 PM, May 16, 2007
SOTL says:
I think NASS said something about going ice fishing. I hear that's a popular sport up there in Minnesota. What about it NASS? Maybe you could invite WHS up there to ice fish with you so that he would keep his mind from going to that scarey place.
SOTL,
You must be mistaken. I hate ice fishing. I'm not too keen on invisible snakes either.
sickofthelies said...
Maybe you could invite WHS up there to ice fish with you so that he would keep his mind from going to that scarey place.
REPLY:
Oh good grief sotl, you don't have to fish for ice, it's right there in your fridge.
Thanks, Karen and Solomon. I left a response to Solomon on the other thread.
I have read the 1 Thes 4:13-18. What a glorious time that will be.
But notice what it doesn't tell us....When He will come. A couple of things to think about.
1)There is a whole lot of prophesy that has yet to be fulfilled. See any of the major or minor prophets. And it all happens before Jesus comes on the white horse. IMO
2) If we read Rev, Jesus comes on a White Horse, and that does not happen until a lot of seals are open, vials are opened.....sort of lines up with prophesy, Mark 13 and Romans 1....IMO
It has been a while since I have read it, I will try to get more detailed with scripture later.
What I get from 1 Thes 4:3-18 is that alive or dead we all get to go. But doesn't the "those that are left" sound sort of ominous?
Is BBC choir going to the convention this year? Haven't heard anything about it. Seems they have been invited for several years now.
Lynn said...
I know I might be a little out of line on this one...but can someone please shut Fred Phelps up for good!?!?!? That nutjob preacher from Kansas has the guts to protest at JERRY FALWELL'S FUNERAL!!!!
I read their press release at the link you provided, and all I can say is someone needs to be "watching" that pastor....
Ezekiel: From my understanding, there are two events. The Rapture, when Jesus meets believers in the clouds, and the Second Coming, when he comes on his horse to defeat the Antichrist's armies. There is no prophesy that has to be fulfilled before the Rapture; only before the Second Coming.
junk99mail said...
Lynn said...
I know I might be a little out of line on this one...but can someone please shut Fred Phelps up for good!?!?!? That nutjob preacher from Kansas has the guts to protest at JERRY FALWELL'S FUNERAL!!!!
I read their press release at the link you provided, and all I can say is someone needs to be "watching" that pastor....
10:48 PM, May 16, 2007
Yeah. Phelps is a few cards short of a full deck.
DEL,
I can't speak for the group but it appears that after the business meeting that was inappropriately closed down,
many people that had chosen to put their heads in the sand were ready for an open meeting.
Some that would never have signed the petition or gone against their friends were ready to meet with like minded members and try to find answers.
To my knowledge, the official IDC group have met 2 times since then. Many in the group wanted an open meeting. I believe a facility had been found.
Unfortunately, DC offered to begin a series of meetings with a hand full of concerned men to work towards reconciliation.
So the open meeting that would have given an opportunity to involve other like minded members was postponed.
The men of IDC felt this was the more honorable thing to do in light of DC's promise.
Now it seems that many attempts have been made by the group to schedule these meetings with DC and SG.
So far nothing. Just as many thought would be the case.
We continue NOT to expose the dishonesty by DC.
We continue to think "this time leadership will do the right thing".
It was DC and MD that met with 3 members of IDC several months ago at J Alexanders.
They led the 3 men to believe that SG had become a liability and needed to go.
In reality,
DC wanted to get the word out (thru the hated blog)
that the info IDC had put out concerning the handling of the victim was false.
They got what they wanted when these 3 men believed DC. They were quick to apologize for any mistakes made.
The whole truth has not been told yet.
Had the victim been given the opportunity to speak his heart,
maybe BBC would be at least one step towards healing.
The man responsible for the bulk of the work and research put into the motions prepared for the business meeting,
to my understanding,
is planning on moving his family to another state now.
All that to say,
I don't think there is much IDC or anyone else CAN do at this point.
So many more have left since that meeting.
My wife was with a group of ladies last Friday that said since no action was taken,
they are moving on.
Charlie said:
Oh good grief sotl, you don't have to fish for ice, it's right there in your fridge.
SOTL says:
Charlie, Charlie, Charlie...
NASS does NOT have an ice maker in her refrigerator, so she MUST go ice fishing.
er, i meant to say HE...HE must go ice fishing
byebelle,
Your e-mail just came through. I don't understand why you're not receiving mine. Shall I post the item you sent me this afternoon?
NBBOC,
Yep...go for it.
From Solomon's comments at 8:44 PM, May 16, 2007
"Bellevue has stated that they have $20 million in reserve. The current year's budget is $24 mil, so if the contributions were zero this year, the reserves will be depleted in less than one year.
More likely, since attendance is down about 20%, giving is also down by a similar amount. If so, the reserve will cover the difference for at least 5-10 years if the attendance remains constant."
My comment:
I do not have the facts at hand to authenticate this but I am remembering that approximately 20% of the membership gives 80% of the budget. Now if very many of the leaving "troublemakers" are in this 20% no reserve will last very long.
Maybe Dr. Bill Loney can be approached for a potion or cure for this "Diminitis Reservosus". What do you say Doc? Didn't I see something like "Elixir of Competentous Max Integrus" in your bag... (sorry for snooping), and a booklet on “How to Make Something Out of Nothing”?
Oh well, Night all.
Please remember whichever way you came, by whatever means, to Christ…. you are eternally endowed with the riches of Christ Jesus.
Padroc
Ezekiel: One other note....You have to be very careful to take scripture in total context to verify which event is being discussed, like in Matthew 24, for example.
bassman,
Thanks for your reply. I was praying for a different response, but had just about figured it out. So is there still a chance someone will challenge the "special called meeting" Sunday? Or will we have to take action at the convention to disqualify the BBC messengers?
Lwood said...
"Is BBC choir going to the convention this year? Haven't heard anything about it. Seems they have been invited for several years now."
10:47 PM, May 16, 2007
My comment;
No.
I supose we could have been invited but It seems now that the number of choir members has shrunk so low that there will be some efforts to recrute new members.
Lynn said...
Yeah. Phelps is a few cards short of a full deck.
Seriously! Its folks like that who give homophobia a bad name!!
The term "rapture" does not appear in scripture. Nor does the idea of a secret disappearance of the church before Christ's return. In fact the scriptures state plainly that when He does return there'll be no doubt as to who He is...the wicked will cry for the rocks to cover them and hide them from the radiance of His glory. The apocalyptic language of Ezekiel, Daniel, Revelation, etc. must be understood in it's symbolism. These things should be encouragement to the church, as the intensity of wickedness and persecution of the church increases. From what I see in scripture, both evil and the advance of the Kingdom will continue exponentially till the time God has appointed as the end of days.
AOG: Yes, in the Second Coming there will be no doubt of Jesus' Majesty and Authority. However, as to the rest of it, I do believe Jesus will rapture His church. However, my take on this type of a discussion is that regardless of what each of us believe, God's plan will be carried out and we'll be in Heaven at some point. So if I'm right, I'll wave to you during the trip! :) If you are right, I'll still see you there!
The one man who may have
is on vacation with his family until the 28th or so.
I personally have not heard of another.
Maybe one of the 4 deacons who were to be in this imaginary group
will find his voice.
Maybe the true "elder" who had the courage to challenge the power broker who first tried to get MS fired
then to persuade a donor to change his will so that BBC would get the money intended for Mid America.
MAYBE, this honorable man, will once again show the younger men of the church how a man of courage and conviction behaves.
Or maybe one who has been fearful before will stand.
byebelle said...
Sorry is a word everyone uses all the time. Did you ever wonder what "Sorry" looks like? Well, wonder no further!
Sorry!
Here's what I think I believe about end times this week:
The Apocalypse Code
But ask me again next week and my response may be different.
Nass and byebelle: That is priceless!
Ohhhhh....
How precious!!
Ohhhhh....
How precious!!
bassman,
Thanks for your straight talk. I will anxiously await the outcome of the 5/20 meeting. Its hard to believe that Dr. Spradlin and Bob Sorrell would go as messengers when they know the lack of ethics involved in this special meeting.
del.....
That is a question I have concerning those particular men also.
Very confusing.....
I do love MS,please don't misunderstand!
My thinking is also that since the SBC approved the sexual purity for ministers in 02,leads me to think..
1)SG sure told a lame lie to the church about this being "unchartered" territory.
2)The SBC must have been aware of sexual cover ups at that time to have made it an issue .
NASS
That one is off the cute meter!!!!
GMommy: What is certain is that it was not "uncharted waters."
concernedsbcer
You are absoluetly right.
ANY excuse would have been better than that one!!!
Del said...
Its hard to believe that Dr. Spradlin and Bob Sorrell would go as messengers when they know the lack of ethics involved in this special meeting.
I have wondered about that myself. I'd be interested to know how they see it.
gmommylv....
.These 2002 resolutions were defiantly intended to get the word out. I was not aware at the time of the resolution nor did I have any training in sexual abuse, but as chairman of our church personnel committee I had enough common sense to call DCS and find out what my obligations were when faced with a complaint from a parent that her child may have been abused. It took me about 30 seconds to find the number for the Dept of Children’s Services and call them. DCS told me that no proof was needed, just suspicion for them to start the investigation.
Del...
You just said a TON.
WHY WHY would people fall for that sorry excuse from a PHD with 20 years of experience???
At the very least,surely SOME of leadership's wives watch Oprah!!
NO EXCUSE!!!
Follow up to my last post ...
Knowing Dr. Spradlin to be a man of integrity, I suspect that he either (1) hasn't been made aware of or considered the potential impropriety of BBC appointing messengers in a manner inconsistent with their own bylaws or (2) has a different opinion on whether the appointments are inappropriate.
If he comes to the conclusion that BBC leadership is not making the appointments properly, he might chose to decline to go as their messenger ... he would go to the SBC anyway, as a rep for the seminary and for the alumni breakfast held during the convention, but he doesn't have to go as a voting messenger. It would really send a strong message about his opinion of BBC leadership's tactics if he declined the appointment! Mike, are ya listening? :)
gmommylv...
If Steve had just said, "I messed up" and asked for forgiveness from all involved most of this could have been avoided. I have been so frustrated along with the brothers and sisters at BBC but God will not let this go unchecked. Rest assured, those folks involved in the cover ups and lies will not rest until they clear their conscious or until God clears them. Dr. Rogers preached a sermon on Gideon and the 300 faithful vs 30,000 and it was repeated on the radio a few days ago. Maybe when we know there is nothing else man can do to correct the BBC situation that God will perform a miracle and we will know without a doubt it was from Him.
junk99mail..
No question that if this meeting is called a "special called meeting" that it will be an illegal meeting. RRo states the conditions very clearly about the bylaws requiring the conditions a special meeting. If they go through with this Sunday I intend to write to the SBC and get instructions for a protest. If it requires a point of order at the SBC then so be it.
del,
A deacon friend of mine who I see as a peace maker had lunch with SG recently.
I asked him if when they were discussing the issues was there ANY sign that SG had love or compassion for any of us.
Regret?
My friend always gives people the benefit of the doubt...
He said he couldn't say that he saw any love or compassion.
SG does not think he has done anything wrong!!!!
DEL,
The palimentarian that BBC hired for the monkey business meeting made sure he made things work for leadership.
There was a 2nd palimentarian present. He was sitting with the man that put so much work into the motions.
Once leadership decided to silence the motion and the victim, Roberts rules were out the window.
Two different men gave the proper "calls" to keep the meeting from being shut down.
It didn't matter.
It is doubtful you will get answers from SBC.
Maybe someone can put you in touch with the 2nd palimentarian used for that meeting.
Hey,
Who said the full moon was going to be this week? Tomorrow's the new moon. The next full moon is June 1st, and July 30th will be the next blue moon.
junk99mail..
Thanks for the info about the 2nd parliamentarian. You are right about ignoring the rules. If leadership has a plan and no ethics, anything goes. Rules and bylaws are often used to keep the quite majority in check. I have been a Christian for 54 yrs and it greaves my heart to think of what God has to put up with from His own.
gmommylv...
It appears Steve has been blinded by satan. Only the Holy Spirit can open his eyes. It is pretty obvious from where I sit that he is power hungry and has lost sight of his calling, if he ever had one. He could have had the greatest ministry but has chosen to abuse the power entrusted to him, not by man, but by God. God's principles haven't changed nor will they. God's truth and Steve Gaines' truth are light years apart.
bassman..
Thanks for the parliamentarian info. I addressed junk99mail in my last post and it should have been you. You and junk99mail have been most helpful tonight and I thank you both.
This blog does not allow anonymous comments.
How does 25+ get by? Is there special favor allowed?
Watching: 25+ does has a profile; he/she is not anonymous.
"It was DC and MD that met with 3 members of IDC several months ago at J Alexanders.
They led the 3 men to believe that SG had become a liability and needed to go."
David Coombs told these IDC men that he thought Gaines had become a liability and needed to go?
Is this what I am reading here???
concerned
You are right he/she is not anonymous.
I mistakenly got the impression that he/she was granted special favor not afforded others.
Lin said...
"It was DC and MD that met with 3 members of IDC several months ago at J Alexanders.
They led the 3 men to believe that SG had become a liability and needed to go."
David Coombs told these IDC men that he thought Gaines had become a liability and needed to go?
Is this what I am reading here???
Lin,
I'm unsure where that information came from, but it's an inaccurate statement. David Coombs said no such thing.
Watching: Not a problem. Nass runs a tight, but fair, ship in my opinion. :)
(Sorry, my first post had a grammar mistake and you know how Cakes feels about that! ;) )
Here is a report from the inside the fort:
Last evenings events at BBC included a children's musical. At the musical, our new Director of Prayer was introduced to a cheering crowd. Higgy. She told the group that the Spriit had whispered a message to her soul. "You have taught Bellevue to sing. Now, you must teach Bellevue to pray."
Some of our children will be be given a binder with glossy pages. They will be instructed how to pray for OUR PASTOR. They will receive updates for their binders. There will be rewards given for those who have the best prayer records and the will be a grand prize at the end of the term.
Does anyone else see a problem here?
Take your children and RUN, RUN, RUN.
Churchmouse: Does 1930 Germany ring a bell????
churchmouse,
Ms. Higgy is a dear friend our family and I've known her since 4th grade. She is a dear woman of God and her sister is the best Bible teacher I've ever heard. That family is strong in the Lord and I wish them nothing but the best God has for them.
NOW, what kind of prize does one get for the best prayer record? How will BBC top a Heavenly reward? Just saying...
I won a prize for keeping the best sermon notes during a contest in 5th grade. On all my notes I spelled it "Dr. Adrain Rodgers"! :)
The girl interviewed on WMC Channel 5 last night just graduated (YAY, Katherine!) so give her a break on not knowing that crime happens everywhere - even on church campuses. She's not yet as jaded as the rest of us!
Thanks for all the well wishes from my accident. OraGel is my lip's new best friend.
Finally, regarding the man I asked for prayer the other day. He is doing a little better - out of ICU. He's being moved the Gtown Rehab today. Something spooky though - Someone saw Mr. Hackett laying in his driveway after the attack and went to the only neighbor that would know his daughter's phone number. When the neighbor went to thank the passerby, the passerby was gone! Now that's God and only God. He could have picked any neighbor who wouldn't know the number to call, but when to the only one who did know the number. It's being speculated that the attack was a gang initiation so pray someone will come forward with information.
karen
churchmouse,
Good grief! I'd be more concerned about anyone who did not see a problem there -- a HUGE problem! That's one of the... tackiest... things I've heard yet. Prayer and teaching children how to pray is a wonderful thing. Turning it into a game with prizes? That's something else entirely. Ick!
"She told the group that the Spriit had whispered a message to her soul. 'You have taught Bellevue to sing. Now, you must teach Bellevue to pray.'"
This was a slap in the face when Steve Gaines said the same thing in September 2005 (with Dr. Rogers sitting in front of him), and it still is!
I do not know "Higgy," but I've heard nothing but positive comments about her and that she's a wonderful prayer warrior. Does it not appear that she's letting herself be used by the administration to further their agenda? Also, if she were a man in the same position, they'd call her "Minister of Prayer" and pay her twice as much.
"At the musical, our new Director of Prayer was introduced to a cheering crowd."
Would you really call the 200-250 people in attendance on a recent typical Wednesday night a "crowd"?
Thanks for the report. And for ruining my lunch, possibly even my dinner.
Karen,
I worked with Higgy in graded choir for more than 10 years. Also, I have helped with costumes, etc,etc. Chuck was in my Bible Study class for many more years than that. We were good friends.
My purpose is not to question Higgy's character. However; people can't be untouchable just because we have known and liked (or loved them) in past years. That is such a problem. People will not speak out for fear of hurting the feelings of friends who have bought into this deception.
I taught my children that prayer was a very personal conversation with their Heavenly Father. I told them they could pray anywhere, anytime, when they were thinking of Him. We talked about Christ's model prayer.
I believe we should pray for Steve Gaines. But, to give the children of our church a binder and make THE PASTOR such a focus? This sounds cultish to me.
I hope no child in my family takes part in this. They can pray for Steve Gaines as they pray for others.
I don't think the prizes for this contest have been decided on at this time.
Karen, I love you for your tender heart and your kindness.
bbc open forum posted cowboy
"I also know that Mrs. Rogers is and has been friends with the Mannings for a very long time and I was not surprized that she took sides."
bbc answer:
Yes, they are said to be old friends. SO WHAT??? Are you saying Mrs. Rogers is so incapable of thinking for herself and can be so easily swayed that she'd "take sides" just because her friends have an opinion? If I were you, I wouldn't dare go there, sir!
9:33 PM, May 16, 2007
My comment:
Why would Mrs. Rogers follow her Manning friend to GBC where all of the ,"negative" talking people have congregated? Dr. Rogers would not have carried his, "precious wife" into such an environment. I know from old GBC members,that Mrs. Manning began attending GBC long before Mrs. Rogers I wonder if the negative attitude of her best friend persuaded her to see things through a very clouded vision?
Don't get mad! You raised some questions in my mind that seem to fall into place.
Matthew 6:6 (NKJV)
But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly
Cowboy,
I don't know the Mannings, many of us don't know the Mannings, yet, we have left BBC and are attending other churches.
Do you think that we are capable of thinking for ourselves?
I would imagine that Mrs. R. would give you an earful if she knew what you were saying about her.
And just fyi, after the monkey business meeting, Mrs. R. was seen giving " what for" to Bryan Miller.
From all accounts, she was horrified.
To suggest that she is just a puppet for someone else, and is not capable of thinking for herself is just nonsense.
And as far as Dr. R. is concerned, I'm QUITE sure that he would find many many many many reasons for Mrs. R. to worship elsewhere. Must I make the list again for you to see? Have you forgotten:
1. Steve Gaines told leaders to deal with the amen guy. He told Mark Dougharty, as reported to Mark Sharp, that he, (SG) had a dream about the amen guy, which MD related to Mark Sharp. Mark Sharp later re-verified that same fact with Mark Dougharty, then in the very same conversation MD denied it when he learned from Mark Sharp that Steve Gaines was denying the dream. Steve Gaines, not only lies, but by his bullyness coerces others to lie. Granted they should be men enough and men of God to not lie, but obviously that is not the case..(their lying is their problem, not SG's) (see Mark Sharp’s letters on Savingbellevue.com)
2. Steve Gaines refuses to abide by Matthew 18..reportedly by some other deacons, Matt 18 does not apply to the pastor, Steve Gaines, huh??
3. Steve Gaines trespassed by climbing over a fence in a gated, no trespassing community and took three other men with him..men in authority of Bellevue Baptist Church. Steve Gaines lies, calling it an“itty-bitty fence” they stepped over. Truth is, it’s a 41” fence..no one could just step over it. (See photo’s on Savingbellevue.com)
4. Steve Gaines refers to Mark Sharp as Hez.
5. Steve Gaines trash talks Bellevue members at Union.
6. A minister of Bellevue confesses to Steve Gaines in June that he raped, sodomized his own son for 12 - 18 months.
7. Steve Gaines keeps this pedophile on staff, roaming the halls and bathrooms of BBC, making himself available to other children of BBC should he choose to do so.
8. Steve Gaines tells PW, the pedophile, "it's under the blood",
and assures him he will not loose his job and even gives him a raise during the 6 months he leaves him on staff roaming around BBC.
9. Steve Gaines only comes clean with the confession and lets the church family know we have a minister that has had a "moral failure"!!! when PW's own son the "victim" wants to know from Steve Gaines why his father/ perpetrator is still on staff at Bellevue.
10. Steve Gaines gives $25,000
of Bellevue's tithes and offerings to an apostate church, that has a female pastor that openly supports homosexuality and abortion.
There is much more, but this is enough for you to chew on for awhile.
Anyone, with an OUNCE of discernment would be out that door and never look back.
churchmouse,
I am so grateful my kids are grown.
Nothing like this was presented to our children in the past. I also have high regard for Ms Higgy. Doesn't mean she is not being had or used.
This stinks like the loyalty oaths for the deacons. What is next??? I said just last night to a friend...after watching what has gone on at BBC ...there could be another Hitler!
IF my kids were young,I WOULD grab them and run!
trusthisname... you should be trustinginHisName...
You wrote:
"I wonder if the negative attitude of her best friend persuaded her to see things through a very clouded vision?"
Response:
The only ones who have clouded vision are those who refuse to understand that truth is more important than unity.
The only ones who are blind are those who are at BBC and say that they SEE no problems, they HEAR nothing wrong, and so they will SPEAK only the party line.
Reminds me of three little monkeys...
jmo
churchmouse,
You know my comments about Ms. Higgy weren't a cut toward you. I was just expressing myself. I do feel because she is so well respected that she could have been chosen by the leadership for that very reason - she's so well liked and she's "old Bellevue" - thereby making people comfortable with her.
It's the same way I feel about Mike Spradlin & Bob Sorrell being delegates, they are "old Bellevue" - If they go to the SBC a BBC delegates, some people will see that as support of Steve Gaines and think everything at BBC is okey dokey.
This leadership is shrewd - make all these changes to leadership then throw in a couple of people that people are familiar and comfortable with and calm the masses. Neat trick, huh?
karen
Karen,
I agree. That was a shrewd move on their part. I suppose it will save face for Gaines at the convention. I wouldn't want to do that for him. jmho
Karen: Very interesting point. Could be construded as very deceitful......
By the way,
I have looked at Faith Baptist's website and see no evidence of the PD folks there. How refreshing!
You should have seen the term I was going to use! I actually wrote "then they throw in some old shoes" and had to erase it because I didn't want the emails that term would produce! :)
Old Bellevue is much better than "Old Shoes", huh? Still smarting from my accident, but getting better.
karen
churchmouse,
Faith had plans to do a "40 Days" study, but I haven't heard anymore about it in months.
Maybe Lynn knows - we discussed it a while back.
karen
sorry....construed
concerned,
Seems you need to be more "knowledged". At least Ophelia Ford thinks that's a word! :)
You should have seen the term I was going to use! I actually wrote "then they throw in some old shoes" and had to erase it because I didn't want the emails that term would produce! :)
Good job, Karen!
Karen said,
"Faith had plans to do a "40 Days" study, but I haven't heard anymore about it in months."
Reply: YIKIES! Thanks for the warning.
church,
They may have backed off that, but I don't know for sure.
karen
Just got an email from Lynn (feel like Big Brother is watching me!) :) Here's his response about Faith and the "40 Days":
"The entire church wasn’t going through it. They had some discipleship classes people could choose from, but it was completely optional. It wasn’t going to be taught in regular Sunday School classes."
karen
The one who said the closing prayer on wednesday to the "crowd", will be the next to fall on their sword.
Concerning the messengers:
Webb Williams knew about Paul Williams situation. His reward.
David Perdue, called for the firing Mickael Spradlin
Mickael Spradlin , the one under fire from the admistration ?
Robert Sorrell, who is running GBC and who was one of the trinity when there was no pastor, still part of the control group whether at BBC or GBC
Bellevue Foundation Banquet has been canceled - anybody wondering?
Here
When going to BBC hold onto your valuables
Here
a unique title: "Bellevue Baptist Battles Crime", just like they battle zzz abuse.
Theft from Motor Vehicle 04/17/2007 2000 APPLING
Theft from Motor Vehicle 04/21/2007 2000 APPLING
Theft from Motor Vehicle 05/14/2007 2000 APPLING
Theft from Motor Vehicle 05/14/2007 2000 APPLING
Theft from Motor Vehicle 05/14/2007 2000 APPLING
Same thing happened a while back when SG held a sports weekend at BBC.
Gopher,
Who said the closing prayer on Wednesday?
Sickofthelies wrote: "I would imagine that Mrs. R. would give you an earful if she knew what you were saying about her.
And just fyi, after the monkey business meeting, Mrs. R. was seen giving " what for" to Bryan Miller.
From all accounts, she was horrified."
Response:
Was she horrified or was she mad?
Wow! Are we seeing another side of Mrs. Rogers? The picture Dr. Rogers painted of her was entirely different, are you sure you are telling the truth about her character? What you have stated, if true, just adds more credibility to cowboy. We need to hear more from him!
Is, "Open Forum" really an open forum for all BBC members or is it just for those who are against the Pastor?
Bassman wrote:
"It was DC and MD that met with 3 members of IDC several months ago at J Alexanders.
They led the 3 men to believe that SG had become a liability and needed to go."
Lin wrote: David Coombs told these IDC men that he thought Gaines had become a liability and needed to go?
Is this what I am reading here???
DocBellevue replies:
Lin,
I'm unsure where that information came from, but it's an inaccurate statement. David Coombs said no such thing.
7:59 AM, May 17, 2007
Doc, you and Bassman are NOT on the same page at all. Perhaps DC said it to someone else? This is a pretty important point. If DC told ANYONE that Gaines was a liability, people should be told.
DC has proven himself to be a very good deceitful tactician and strategist throughout this entire ordeal. His saying that would not surprse me in the least. It would, in effect, quiet down the IDC for some much needed breathing room. And, it looks like it worked out real well...i.e. the business meeting.
Can anyone confirm this? Or will they confirm this?
trustinghisname wrote:
"Wow"
Response:
sounds familiar doesn't it NASS? Sounds like ACErtain banned poster imo.
"Some of our children will be be given a binder with glossy pages. They will be instructed how to pray for OUR PASTOR. They will receive updates for their binders. There will be rewards given for those who have the best prayer records and the will be a grand prize at the end of the term."
Mrs Higgy may be real nice but she is following a false teacher and has become deluded if she thinks this is a good thing. I would take my child and run from this quickly. Prizes for prayer records? Folks, come on...wake up. Read your scriptures. Or better yet, teach them to pray that their 'pastor' will repent.
Junk, thanks for the scripture. I was also thinking of the vain prayers of the Pharisees.
trusting,
Are you suggesting Mrs. Rogers is a demure, little thing that won't stand up for herself and has her own opinion? Dr. Rogers didn't have a Stepford Wife, my friend. She's one tough cookie and if you don't believe that, ask one of the Rogers kids.
karen
Concernsbcer,
You are totally right. Context is everything. Matthew 24 put a few more pieces together for me.
Nothing has changed. We still baptize with water, Jesus still baptizes with the Holy Spirit and Fire. The same fire. Refiners fire, Fire of affliction.
Malachi 4:1"Behold, I send my messenger and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts. 2But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the LORD.[a] 4Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years.
5"Then I will draw near to you for judgment. I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired worker in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, against those who thrust aside the sojourner, and do not fear me, says the LORD of hosts. 6"For I the LORD do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.
Matthew 3:11"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
Don’t be deceived with Malachi 7 either. We are robbing God. We are not bringing forth fruit (not money, but the fruit of the Master’s vineyard, lost souls) to His storehouse and we sacrifice ourselves, blind and lame rather than presenting ourselves as a Holy sacrifice as Paul instructs us.
Romans 12:1[ A Living Sacrifice ] I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
Affliction….The fire of Tribulation
Matthew 24:9"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation (affliction in KJV) and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.
A bunch of ugly stuff happening in between 9 and 24. Judah is fleeing for the hills. In full flight….Pregnant and nursing travel slow. Winter travel is slow and hard.
Mat 24:31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
A reference from Mat 24:31 takes us to 1 Thes 4:15 so it is contextual to say that they happen at the same time.
1 Thes 4:15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,[f] that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Then Rev 18:4 we are called out……still the same time , still in context.
Rev 18:4 4Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,
"Come out of her, my people,
lest you take part in her sins,
lest you share in her plagues;
Then we have Mat 24: 27For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
The corpse He is talking about is found in Rev 19:17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, "Come, gather for the great supper of God, 18to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave,[e] both small and great."
I am still looking for that Rapture! As far as I can tell, Christians will walk the earth until Mat 24:31, 1 Thes 4:15-18, Revelations 18:4. There is nothing pretty happening before then.
And if He would not have shortened the days...
Matt 24:22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
Why: Why are you here? You hate us all, you despise what we stand for (Truth) and you use every opportunity to argue. Wouldn't your time be better spent doing something else?
Nass: You need gas for your trolling motor? I'll chip in....
Ezekiel: I did 4 years of study in Revelation and associated prophecies, so it's really hard to encapsulate it into a few lines. Would you please email me and I will share some of the things I have learned. I don't want to take up space on the blog, nor do I want to be responsible for great debate. As I said last night, what we believe ultimately doesn't matter because God will fulfill His plan. However, I am happy to share what I believe, and why, with you. Then what you do with it is up to you.
Why: Reread your post and mine. In which do you hear the hate? I do not hate you, nor do I spend my days spewing hate; I'm too busy for that. My spare time is spent in studying and encouraging the hurt, broken, searching fellow Christians on this blog. You are winning; why worry about them now? Why continue to stab their sides with spears?
Of course....the battle may be over but we know who wins the war. It has already been decided.
Choose ye this day whom you will serve.......
I choose Jesus. Not (a) man.
Why,
Take a pill, buddy. You're getting riled up for nothing - no ones spewing today; we're just talking. Chill! :)
And send me your answer via email - it's on my profile.
Thanks!
karen
Karen: You've got mail :)
Lin said,
"Doc, you and Bassman are NOT on the same page at all. Perhaps DC said it to someone else? This is a pretty important point. If DC told ANYONE that Gaines was a liability, people should be told."
I've been intimately involved with most of the behind the scenes efforts since early last fall and I seriously doubt David Coombs has said that to anyone. I do not believe in discussing everything I know on the blog, but I don't want information I know to be false to get out unchecked. So, I once again reiterate that neither David Coombs nor Mark Dougharty said that that at J.Alexander's.
If Bassman will email me and identify himself, I will tell him what did and did not happen at J. Alexander's.
docbellevue,
Thank you for denouncing information you know to be false. It adds credibility to the blog.
cxbgloWhy said:
Take your own advice and hit the road. There are many of us VERY happy with what God is doing at Bellevue.
Yep you can tell there are MANY Happy by all the empty seats on Sunday mornings.
Is the MVD nominee online?????????
The question has been promptly answered. Thanx, NASS.
Yes, Thanks SO much, Nass. Has spring come to Minnesota yet? It's beautiful here!
Sorry, Charlie. Contrary to popular belief, NASS does have a life outside of blogland, but the trash always gets taken out... eventually. Actually, I got a call on my Batphone as I was out living said life, so being the dutiful "blogmaster" I am, I rushed to the nearest computer to "detroll."
Thanks, concernedsbcer, for the gas money offer!
Why is the question? said...
yet again, the fraud deleted my REPLY to someone
REPLY:
May I suggest email.
Why,
If you're reading, no one can delete your email except me so I'm waiting with anticipation that your reply is on the way.
karen
New BBC Open Forum said...
Sorry, Charlie. Contrary to popular belief, NASS does have a life outside of blogland, but the trash always gets taken out... eventually. Actually, I got a call on my Batphone as I was out living said life, so being the dutiful "blogmaster" I am, I rushed to the nearest computer to "detroll."
REPLY;
There should be not doubt as to your deserving the MVD nomination.
Churchmouse said...
Here is a report from the inside the fort:
Last evenings events at BBC included a children's musical. At the musical, our new Director of Prayer was introduced to a cheering crowd. Higgy. She told the group that the Spriit had whispered a message to her soul. "You have taught Bellevue to sing. Now, you must teach Bellevue to pray."
Some of our children will be be given a binder with glossy pages. They will be instructed how to pray for OUR PASTOR. They will receive updates for their binders. There will be rewards given for those who have the best prayer records and the will be a grand prize at the end of the term.
Does anyone else see a problem here?
Reply:
I see quite a few problems – serious problems – from Hitler to Jim Jones, to name a few. This is cultish-type leadership and I’m sorry that Mrs. Higgy is allowing herself to be taken in by the current thinking at BBC. All of us are subject to deception and it sounds as if Mrs. Higgy is in need of our prayers at this time.
My first solid confirmation that SG was the wrong man for BBC was when he stood in the pulpit (in front of Dr. R) and said he was going to “teach Bellevue to pray.” What a wake-up call that was! And what pain I felt for AR and for all the rest of us “old shoes” who had learned so much about true prayer from AR.
Karen, your original term, “old shoe” is fine with me – an old shoe is usually a comfortable one.
And Karen, I want to thank you for your comment about AR’s first meeting in Heaven with Jerry Falwell: “Cool, huh?” Each time some idjut blasts JF I think of your priceless barb and I can’t help but smile at the very thought. It keeps my blood pressure in check.
On another topic, Trusthisname has a familiar MO. There could be a banned troll in the camp.
Solomon,
I can't monitor the blog every day, but I happened to catch Lin's post this morning. I strongly believe we must be committed to truth in all of these matters. I hope everyone posting would correct the record if they know with certainty bad information is being circulated.
Thank you and all other truth lovers.
It is my opinion that
It is not this blog that is in need of credibility
But the leadership of BBC that is in great need of showing credibility.
What has been proven and admitted to of leadership says enough for myself and many others.
They are making no attempts to right any wrongs.
They ignore,deny and out right lie....even on many small things.
And WHY do the trolls continue to troll this blog?????
Still alittle fear there or just having fun??
YOU HAVE BBC.
WE have only this blog.
lin wrote:
"Doc, you and Bassman are NOT on the same page at all. Perhaps DC said it to someone else? This is a pretty important point. If DC told ANYONE that Gaines was a liability, people should be told."
All of you need to look at the original quote from "bassman." He said...
"They led the 3 men to believe that SG had become a liability and needed to go."
"Lin" responded:
"David Coombs told these IDC men that he thought Gaines had become a liability and needed to go?"
"Docbellevue" then responded:
"I'm unsure where that information came from, but it's an inaccurate statement. David Coombs said no such thing."
Note that "bassman" stated the men were led to believe this, not that DC said it in so many words. That's a big distinction, and the fact that DC didn't say it doesn't negate that the message was somehow conveyed.
Let's all remember that words mean things and not jump to false conclusions. Also, from what I was told, MD was the one responsible for most of the "winking and nodding" going on in that meeting, and of course, as we all know, he's now history.
AH, life is good. Elvis and I are having lunch. We are having peanut butter and banana sandwiches. I don't get any better!!
mary,
Glad to know I made your blood pressure go down, but if you take meds for it, please continue to take them. I can't come up with amusing zingers everyday! :)
karen
My word verification is "fffpsnhh"
New BBC Open Forum said...
Also, if she were a man in the same position, they'd call her "Minister of Prayer" and pay her twice as much.
Hmmmm.... did NASS secretly get ahold of payroll or financial info to know how much folks are paid at BBC? :)
I think that's what I uttered when I conked my head yesterday!
karen
Why is the question? said...
Karen: I do not have any interest in meeting with you at this point. I also do not eat lunch etc alone with a female other than my wife. IMO all Christian men should not either.
Why should all Christian men eat lunch etc alone with your wife??
concernedsbcer said,
"Choose ye this day whom you will serve......."
The spirit of Elija........
Malachi 4:5"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. 6And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction."
1 Kings 18:21And Elijah came near to all the people and said, "How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him."
junk99mail said...
Why is the question? said...
Karen: I do not have any interest in meeting with you at this point. I also do not eat lunch etc alone with a female other than my wife. IMO all Christian men should not either.
Why should all Christian men eat lunch etc alone with your wife??
REPLY:
Junkster, you are just TOO MUCH!!
Charlie Fox said...
There should be not doubt as to your deserving the MVD nomination.
Is that nomination in order? Do the NBBCOF by-laws allow for special called meetings for such nominations?
junk99mail said...
Why is the question? said...
Karen: I do not have any interest in meeting with you at this point. I also do not eat lunch etc alone with a female other than my wife. IMO all Christian men should not either.
Why should all Christian men eat lunch etc alone with your wife??
Junk! I had to read that twice before I got it - thanks!
Why, okay let's make it dinner and all 4 of us can go. What's the big deal? Either you want to step toward conflict resolution or you don't. There was nothing untoward in my lunch invitation and I think you know that. Sounds to me as you just want to remain anonymous so you don't have to face those of us who oppose you. C'mon me and Randy are just plain ole folks - we'd love to get out to dinner with another couple. Whaddasay???
junk wrote:
"Hmmmm.... did NASS secretly get ahold of payroll or financial info to know how much folks are paid at BBC? :)"
Nah, NASS hasn't obtained that information... yet, but judging from life as we know it, that's usually the way things work, isn't it? Who knows? Maybe they'd pay her three times as much if she were a man!
I guarantee you though, whether he was ordained or not, a man in the same position would be called "Minister of Prayer." You might recall the "Administrative Pastor" wasn't ordained his first couple of months on the job. And the previous "Minister of Prayer" was by his own admission... well... certainly not Scripturally qualified to be a "minister" of anything.
I have noticed several times that some of you have made comments that those of us who believe in Jesus Christ, the virgin birth, the death burial and resurrection of Christ, that He is the Redeemer and only way of salvation, that he is returning again, and are worshipping Jesus Christ under the leadership of Dr. Steve Gaines can be classified as members of a cult. (Jim Jones)
Whyisthequestion,
you have hit the nail on the head about those who are in agreement with the IDC. WOW! BBC Open Forum you have crossed the line! Why didn't you delete those wicked and demonic comments istead of those who try to come on here and talk things out.
junk99mail,
Ace told someone something very similar when invited out by a truth seeker several months ago.
NASS,
Mrs. Higinbotham's paycheck does not concern me. What concerns me is that it appears BBC has placed a female in an unscriptural position and our people are applauding.
I'm with you on equal pay for equal work, but this issue is much more significant than that. Fidelty to Scripture is the issue here. Unless I misunderstand her role, once again BBC seems to have undermined biblical authority (and the traditional teachings of our church and denomination).
trust,
You are misclassifying and misquoting those comments. You're not trying to "talk things out." You just want to come here and hurl false accusations, stir things up, and heap more ridicule upon those who do come here to "talk things out."
"Witq" was banned, so there's no point in anyone responding to him, as his comments will be deleted.
ezekiel,
I invited ace to a "unpacking boxes party/have a cookie, precious party" a few months ago at my house and he refused then too. So, make your own conclusion. No one that I've asked to meet except the ones on "my side" (I really hate saying that, but I had to clarify) have taken the plunge to get together and talk.
karen
TrustHisName said...
I have noticed several times that some of you have made comments that those of us who believe in Jesus Christ, the virgin birth, the death burial and resurrection of Christ, that He is the Redeemer and only way of salvation, that he is returning again, and are worshipping Jesus Christ under the leadership of Dr. Steve Gaines can be classified as members of a cult. (Jim Jones)
REPLY:
I am speaking solely for myself, but I would ask you whose leadership is your chosen leader, Steve Gaines, under?
A pastor is to be above reproach. Is yours?
God has promised through His Word to always honor His Word – He does not promise to honor the one who preaches His Word.
Think about it, please.
Trust,
It's hard to start a dialogue with someone when you're accused of "spewing hate and making vile comments" all the time. It's not condusive to meaningful conversation and possible resolution.
Most the those termed "trolls" come around to lob a written barrage of bombs at people that have a differing opinion, but then do nothing to back up their own opinion. By being told "you're wrong, you're evil, Steve is 100% right and you're 100% wrong" without any sort of move toward a mutual understanding is like teaching a pig to sing. It's useless and it annoys the pig (sorry piglet!)
Now if you want to stick around and dialog, great. If you just stopped by to tell us we're from the pits of hell, hit the road. We've already heard that, yet we're still here.
karen
why,
just email me.
PLEASE????!!!!
karen
New BBC Open Forum said...
I guarantee you though, whether he was ordained or not, a man in the same position would be called "Minister of Prayer."
The practice at BBC used to be that there was 1 Pastor, 1 Associate Pastor, and multiple Ministers ... and all of these had to be ordained. Men on staff who who were leading a support function but were not ordained (and women, who are not ordained on the basis of scripture) were called Directors.
I had a friend who worked there after being a Minister of Administration at another church, but he had not yet been ordained, so he was hired in as a Director with the understanding that his title would be changed to Minister after he was ordained (which it was).
As far as I know, that was the practice as long as Dr. Rogers was around. I may be wrong, but I don't think he would allowed anyone to be called Pastor or Minister of anything who was not already ordained. And I don't think he would have permitted a woman to be even Director of such a clearly ministry-related (not just support-related) function as prayer. It was always a Minister-level function and as such it was always a man in that role.
doc,
I don't know what her job description is either, but I don't see "Director of Prayer" as an "unscriptural" position for a woman. Maybe someone should find out just what the job entails before labeling it "unscriptural" and unsuitable for a woman. From everything I've heard about Ms. Higgy, she's the one I'd want praying for me any time, especially in a time of need. I don't see how that would put her in a position of authority over the men in the church.
And let's face it, so far the men of BBC have done such a stellar job of standing up to the "unscriptural" authority of our church....
Charlie Fox said...
Junkster, you are just TOO MUCH!!
That is a FIB from the general vicinity of HECK and I rebate you for it!! I am just enough, thank you!
I just got told that Jamie Parker asked the choir to call their friends and invite them to choir and that he couldn't understand why the attendance was so down.
I believe the quote was "if you don't like it, leave" and now he's surprised when it happens!
karen
witq,
Looks like BBC is left with the Biblically ignorant. If you don't see a problem with rewards for glossy 'prayer records' for children, then what is left to discuss?
This is of course negating all the other 'unBiblical' events and decisions that have gone on with your leadership. They could only happen if people decide to ignore scripture or just do not know it except what has been proof texted for them.
As RR once said, "They know so much that just ain't so"
Nass wrote: Let's all remember that words mean things and not jump to false conclusions. Also, from what I was told, MD was the one responsible for most of the "winking and nodding" going on in that meeting, and of course, as we all know, he's now history."
Good point, Nass.
Doc wrote: "I've been intimately involved with most of the behind the scenes efforts since early last fall and I seriously doubt David Coombs has said that to anyone. I do not believe in discussing everything I know on the blog, but I don't want information I know to be false to get out unchecked. So, I once again reiterate that neither David Coombs nor Mark Dougharty said that that at J.Alexander's."
OK, Doc. Now, it is obvious that either you were there or you know someone very well who was. So tell us...
1. what was the outcome of that meeting? Tell us again even if it has been said here before.
2. During that meeting, did MD or DC infer or imply that Gaines was a problem? Did they 'act' sympathetic to the conerns of IDC?
3. Do you believe that DC is a man of integrity, honesty and character?
Doc wrote: I can't monitor the blog every day, but I happened to catch Lin's post this morning. I strongly believe we must be committed to truth in all of these matters. I hope everyone posting would correct the record if they know with certainty bad information is being circulated."
I agree, Doc. Let's be truth lovers.
Doc,
I'll take Ms Higgy (the woman )as DIRECTOR of prayer
OVER
PW (the sexual deviant)as MINISTER of prayer
ANY day!
Not that I understand just what her position is or PW's was...
do we really need binders with prayers in them for our children?????
Why you are so blind...
You are absolutely right....
God IS working and getting us where we need to be...one way or the other.
(truth now or later ..from 25+)
WITQ,
God certainly is in it as you say. He is all over it. We may not have been where we needed to be, I guess we can always debate that.
But you are not going to get us where we need to be by going where you are going. Turn around.
witq,
You would fit in much better on the Bratton blog.
Lin,
Yes, I was at J. Alexander's and I prefer not to discuss our meeting publicly. I think some things that are going on must necessarily be kept quiet. However, I will say this much: we had a frank, but respectful meeting. I would characterize my follow-up communications the same way.
Based on scores of emails and phone calls over the past few weeks, I know many believe we are wasting our time holding such meetings with David Coombs and other BBC leaders. Well, I obviously disagree. How are we to ever resolve this conflict without talking? Are we to sit back and bash each from afar? That's certainly not the biblical model.
NASS,
And let's face it, so far the men of BBC have done such a stellar job of standing up to the "unscriptural" authority of our church....
The ineffectiveness of male leadership does not grant license to ignore biblical authority on the issue of the role of women within the church. I agree we have seen ineffective leadership, but effectiveness is irrelevant; obedience to the Word is the key.
I recognize you disagree with my viewpoint on the proper role of women in the church, but my view has been the preeminent view of the lionshare of Southern Baptists since the inception of our denomination. I have nothing personal against Mrs. Higginbotham. In fact, I like her. But I see her new position as a departure from a once strongly-held belief which was firmly rooted in Scripture.
docbellevue wrote:
"The ineffectiveness of male leadership does not grant license to ignore biblical authority on the issue of the role of women within the church."
I didn't say it did. It doesn't.
"I agree we have seen ineffective leadership, but effectiveness is irrelevant; obedience to the Word is the key."
Amen!
"I recognize you disagree with my viewpoint on the proper role of women in the church, but my view has been the preeminent view of the lionshare of Southern Baptists since the inception of our denomination."
I don't recall ever expressing my views about the "role of women in the church" here. When did I do that?
"I have nothing personal against Mrs. Higginbotham. In fact, I like her. But I see her new position as a departure from a once strongly-held belief which was firmly rooted in Scripture."
Unfortunately, you neglected to quote the rest of my comment which was...
"I don't know what her job description is either, but I don't see 'Director of Prayer' as an 'unscriptural' position for a woman. Maybe someone should find out just what the job entails before labeling it 'unscriptural' and unsuitable for a woman. From everything I've heard about Ms. Higgy, she's the one I'd want praying for me any time, especially in a time of need. I don't see how that would put her in a position of authority over the men in the church."
I never said the position wasn't inappropriate, unscriptural, or anything else except that before we label it as such we need to find out what her job description is. It may turn out to be, but who knows? This could be much ado about nothing. I'm just saying we need to find out what the truth is before labeling someone's position as "unscriptural."
If Mrs. Higginbotham will not be teaching the men of the church, then I rescind my statement in its entirety. But nowhere have I seen any indication her duties are restricted to children and ladies.
Perhaps I'm wrong on your viewpoint. If so, I apologize.
doc,
:-)
NASS,
You know I love ya! :)
BTW Folks....
The correction on the race that Gaines was talking about in his 4/29 sermon is in this week's bulletin.
doc bellevue,
Regarding Mrs. Higgenbottom, I understand she has sent letters out to the deacons. Perhaps a deacon could tell us if she is leading them in prayer as well? The content of the letter would make it rather clear if her position is scriptural or not.
Good evening folks,
Delegates to the SBC convention are not representatives "chosen" by BBC to Represent BBC. Mike Spradlin as a messenger to the convention is serving in another capacity for another organization. In order to attend as their representative he must be sent by his home church. BBC is his home church.
Generally the individual messengers may not ever sit, eat, speak or see each other the entire convention.
Bob Sorrel, the same. He has some official SBC responsibilities and in order for him to go as a messenger his home church must send him. BBC is his home church.
I do not really have the details just right... I am only generally in the know, but BBC is not being represented as such, by a group of ten, which has some official role to play as a group.
In other words, if you were an officeholder in the SBC you would go as a messenger. Your home church would agree to send you. In order to go and participate in your official capacity you would, according to the SBC bylaws have to be elected to be a messenger by your home church.
Someone please research this... I KNOW I am not spelling this out correctly enough. But I am closer than most of what has been stated on this blog so far. I sure hope this helps to dispel some of the ignorance and anxiety associated with our up coming “business meeting” and the special election.
Sincerely,
Padroc
Padroc is right about the Messengers issue. I'm not sure if I could explain it any better than he/she has, but both Mike Spradlin and Bob Sorrell have responsbilities at the convention, and messengers are sent by their home church. Since both are still members of BBC, BBC is their "sending" church, as it were. They are not going with the purpose of "representing" BBC as it were.
padroc,
You are right on. I've been on the verge of posting something about that all day. I'm just waiting on confirmation of one last detail before doing so, but I'll go ahead and post what I have confirmed.
You are correct that Mike Spradlin and Bob Sorrell were not chosen, per se, by BBC as representatives. Mike Spradlin was appointed by Frank Page to the Committee on Committees (see this), and I'm not sure what capacity Bob Sorrell is going in. Since both are still members of BBC, they will be going as messengers from BBC. Your explanation was good. Thank you!
I am pretty sure Bob Sorrell is also on a committee, but I can't remember which one.
New BBC Open Forum said...
You are correct that Mike Spradlin and Bob Sorrell were not chosen, per se, by BBC as representatives. Mike Spradlin was appointed by Frank Page to the Committee on Committees (see this), and I'm not sure what capacity Bob Sorrell is going in. Since both are still members of BBC, they will be going as messengers from BBC.
I thought I already explained that Messengers aren't technically reps of the church that sends them. I musta been too long and boring about it.
But...just because a person has some official capacity in the SBC does not obligate their home church to send them as a Messenger, and a person does not have to be sent as a Messenger to serve in a demoninational position.
However, none of that changes the point that if the Messengers from BBC are being appointed improperly the appropriate response of those appointed would be to decline the appointment. I am no expert on matters such as Robert's Rules and church bylaws, and I don't know if the SBC has any official requirements that a church must follow its own bylaws or Robert's Rules in order for the Messengers to be considered valid by the Convention. Knowing how strongly Baptists believe in local church autonomy, I doubt the SBC would attempt to enforce any particular set of rules onto a congregation.
Nonetheless, if it was me, and I if felt the leadership of my church was acting inappropriately in how the Messengers were voted upon, I would have serious reservations about accepting the appointment. But I happen to know by experience that Dr. Spradlin has more integrity than I have (sad to day, but true) ... so if he has no such reservations, I could only assume he has a greater understanding of the minutiae than I have.
doc bellevue
Based on scores of emails and phone calls over the past few weeks, I know many believe we are wasting our time holding such meetings with David Coombs and other BBC leaders. Well, I obviously disagree. How are we to ever resolve this conflict without talking? Are we to sit back and bash each from afar? That's certainly not the biblical model.
Piglet says:
Folks may have differing opinions on these meetings you have in mind. But the problem I see with it is that the big meeting which was just about to occur was canned in favor of these other meetings which also have not happened.
I really have no problem with these private meetings but I had a huge problem with cancelling something that, had we done it just after the bogus meeting, could have been very beneficial.
There were people with questions, who were open minded and would have finally listened had we had this meeting. I know some of them.
The fact that it was put on the back burner is what I see as a major waste of time. The more time that goes by, the fewer people there are that care anymore.
It's hard not to look at this and think that the leadership has made a wise move and we fell for it.
piglett said...
It's hard not to look at this and think that the leadership has made a wise move and we fell for it.
I have to agree. When will folks learn? Makes me think of this.
Doc Bellevue said:
How are we to ever resolve this conflict without talking?
Doc,
What do you hope to accomplish by talking with these people? They are not going to suddently decide to be decent people and stop lying and deceiving.
Steve Gaines is who he is. All the " meetings" in the world aren't going to change the fact that he is in the religion business for the money.
Holding meetings isn't going to make Steve Gaines a loving pastor of his sheep.
Holding a meeting isn't going to make SG suddently realize that harboring a pedaphile is wrong, or that tresspassing is wrong, or that Matthew 18 DOES apply to him, or giving $25,000 to an apostate church is wrong, or slamming his sheep at another church is wrong, etc, etc, etc.
I am certain that you mean well, but I can't figure out what it is that you hope to accomplish.
If you are not careful, they will have YOU making the compromises.
These people have shown their true colors over and over and over.
Nothing is going to change.
In my opinion, you can't negotiate with terrorists...and these are "church terrorists"....there is no negotiating...they have set their agenda.
I have to agree whole heartedly with piglet.
People that would have never come to an "open meeting" were ready after the bogus meeting.
The ones I had talked with have now given up and made other plans.
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