In his new book When God Comes to Church (B&H Publishing), Steve Gaines asserts that the great need of the church today is a renewed sense of God's presence. He writes: "I once heard an old-time preacher speaking about God sending fire from heaven onto Mount Carmel during the prophet Elijah's day (I Kings 18). He said that the manifest presence of God is 'when God shows up, and He shows off!' He comes in not to take sides but to take over. When He arrives in splendor and glory, it is obvious to everyone that He is present and He is in charge. The human agendas fade away in the overwhelmingly awesome presence of the King of kings."For years now this has been my primary prayer for every worship service in the churches I have served. The longer I live, the less interested I am in how many people we have in the sanctuary. What is far more important to me is how much of God we have in the place. If He comes, we will have a wonderful service, no matter if there's only a handful. I know some preachers who think if a thousand people come to their morning services, or fifteen hundred, or two thousand, they've had a great Sunday. Not necessarily. I say to them, 'You haven't had a great Sunday unless God shows up!'"
Learn more.
The motion to adjourn the "business" meeting could have been worse.
346 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 346 of 346All this stuff about psychological profiling and temprement tests. Ted Bundy would have passed them.
Just sayin'.
was very concerned when I saw Idlewild's Website. As you BBCers know, it's going to be hard to just trust, and not to second guess every motive of a new pastor after what we've been through. I had heard Ken Written was in the running and on a short list. I also heard he was on staff at Bellevue before moving to Tampa, and when BBC pastor search committee approached him, he said he didn't want to be the one to follow Dr. Rogers.
I would be kind of surprised if he left Idlewild for GBC. He has a thriving church.
I also heard that Idlewild is in the middle of a huge building program, and that wouldn't be a good time to leave either. I will say this: one of my friends on the pastor church committee told me that they not only checked the references given to them by the candidate, they called other pastors in the areas, found names of former members, and former staff members, and talked to them. She said they were doing everything they could do to keep the PDC from ever becoming an issue again. She also said they had gotten information from their extra research that had disqualified candidates for GBC. She said it was nothing that would disqualify someone from being a pastor, just information that would not make them a good fit for us.
I wish Ima and Watchman would weigh in on the web site.
OK, what I am saying is that Ted Bundy, with his intelligence, personality, and charm could have easily been even a pastor, which qualities seem to be highly prized in today's churches. Too bad that the real test is the one many are ignoring. The test of the soul, administered by the Holy Spirit and judged by the Word.
Just a thought.
http://teampyro.blogspot.com/
Some great teaching at Team Pyro today.
Amy, I am afraid we can't trust a man just because he is a pastor. We should trust God for sure. But, we are told in the Bible that we are to be as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves. We are taught to be discerning. I am concerned for GBC. There was a note in the church bulletin recently listing Rob Mullin's job responsibilities. Among them was 'vision casting.' That will be the next big push from the PD folks when Warren's new book comes out in September. It will be titled 40 Days of Vision. You can check on Pastors.com.
I said in an earlier post, this isn't about personalities. I like Ken Whitten and I loved Rob Mullins as pastor of college students.
Germantown Baptist Church
Ministry Assignment
Job Title - Interim Minister of Outreach and Assimilation
Major Duties
• GBC Membership
o Identification of membership – Who is GBC?
o Development of membership follow up ministry/program to shepherd
those not in a Sunday School class
o Recruitment and training of lay volunteers
o Development of an ongoing mechanism to mine the membership data
• New Member Assimilation
o Development and leadership of new member classes
o Development and oversight of new member mentoring ministry
o Creation of new member assimilation lay committee, staff liaison with
this committee
• Greeting Ministry
o Development of visitor/guest ministries including visitor parking, door
greeters, host/hostess, welcome centers, etc…
o Staff liaison with greeter committees
o Recruitment and training of lay volunteers
o Development and coordination of visitor information packets
• Outreach and Evangelism
o Coordination of deacon visitor follow up strategy
o Development of special event evangelism opportunities
o Development and leadership of periodic visitor information classes,
meetings, and dinners
Specific Tasks
• Enlistment and Recruitment of Volunteers
• Lay Leadership Training
• Organization and Administration of Ministry
• Coordination and Scheduling of Volunteers
• Contacting Members and New Members
• Vision Casting for Membership
Don't get wrapped up in the "vision casting" bit. Anybody that knows Rob Mullins knows exactly what his convictions are and where his heart is. He can't be compromised.
Ok....after picking my jaw up off the floor here...let me chime in on the "Discovery Class"
While something like this is good in that it helps new members get a feel of the church....it by no means should be a condition of membership. Think about it this way....does God make you take a class before you can accept Jesus? Last I checked, salvation is a gift. Making the Discovery class mandatory in order to become a member makes the church a COUNTRY CLUB and not a house of God.
charlie fox,
I want to believe you. Please help me understand why I should not be concerned about vision casting, even if it is Rob Mullins. I have known this man for many years. I have the highest regard for him. However, what is vision casting if it is not - - -VISION CASTING? Please help me here. It is not about personalities, it is about the PD Movement.
OK, I just found out what the BIG event is on May 6.
At three minutes and four seconds after 2 on the 6th of May this year, the time and date will be 02:03:04 05/06/07.
Charlie,
I like Rob too.(I like you even tho we have never met!)
BUT ...the very last thing any of us refugees need to be encouraged to do is to put our faith in any man.
I think a blanket statement that Rob cannot be compromised is very unwise.....to use SG's words...that is a slippery slope.
We must learn to test everything by God's truth alone.
Many of the leaders/Christians destroying BBC were men that we would have felt very safe in making that blanket statement about.
This is nothing against Rob. However, what he told some people is that he had no choice but to leave BBC because the funding was cut back.
I am with church mouse....stay vigilant
no disrespect to anyone intended.
Let me correct a previous statement.
At three minutes and four seconds after 2AM on the 6th of May this year, the time and date will be 02:03:04 05/06/07.
Much better.
Churchmouse said...
charlie fox,
I want to believe you. Please help me understand why I should not be concerned about vision casting, even if it is Rob Mullins. I have known this man for many years. I have the highest regard for him. However, what is vision casting if it is not - - -VISION CASTING? Please help me here. It is not about personalities, it is about the PD Movement.
REPLY: Because if it ain't "straight up", Rob won't touch it with a 10 foot pole.
gmommylv said...
BUT ...the very last thing any of us refugees need to be encouraged to do is to put our faith in any man.
I think a blanket statement that Rob cannot be compromised is very unwise.....to use SG's words...that is a slippery slope.
We must learn to test everything by God's truth alone.
REPLY:
That was not a "blanket" statement. That was from knowing him for 20 years. And from knowing where he puts his faith.
gmommylv, believe me, I learned the hard way to test EVERYTHING by GOD's truth alone.
Is it straight up to NOT speak out about the corruption of BBC leadership so that our weaker brother will not stumble????
Really not trying to argue but feel completely uncomfortable with your statements about Rob ...
When a certain Christian counselor
(who in my non humble opinion was completely unethical in treating both the perp and the victim )
wrote a certain letter to deacons ....many on this blog jumped...
without testing the content and intent of the letter.......
to put put him on a pedestal.
Have we come no where since then??
No where since saying DC and this person and that were truely "men of integrity "only to see them lie before the congregation?
How many times do we go down that road before we learn?
Work with me Charlie.....we don't need to lead backwards.
gmommylv,
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as I am entitled to mine.
Let me make it perfectly clear.I put my FAITH in NO MAN. Never have, never will. Jesus Christ, my LORD and Savior, is the ONLY one I put my FAITH in.
I have confidence in people that have proved themselves, over and over and over and over and over again.
I wouldn't expect you to have confidence in me, because as you said, you haven't met me. That is as it should be.
Galatians 1:6-10 KJV
"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."
ima,
I was beginning to get worried about you.
gmomyly asked "How many times do we go down that road before we learn?"
Response from Lily: Satan would like us to continue down that road over and over and over again as if it were a maze that we couldn't figure out.
NASS you have email regarding gmomyly's inaccurate statement above.
Plans for vision casting for PD churches for 2007
PD Vision Casting for 2007
Ahh Charlie...I'm okay. Just churchless again. PD has taken over our churches. Will tell you about it sometime. I consider it pure joy to be persecuted for my Lord.
I'm a little stubborn. I will NEVER compromise Truth. :)
The pastors are giving up the congregations for the 'organizations'. If you get my drift. Do you?
http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=1467
Saddlebacks 20/20 vision progress report
At 8:33 PM, April 26, 2007
WatchingHISstory said...
This makes me assume that (JMO) the battle for the Bible was a smoke screen for transitioning from a New Hampshire Confession gospel to a seeker friendly gospel.
It was more about evangelism than inerrancy. The current situation at BBC is the reflection of the SBC's focus on manipulative power rather than theology.
junk99mail says …
Watching, check out this brief summary of the roots of the conservative resurgance in the Southern Baptist Convention in the ‘80s: The Southern Baptist Reformation.
Here is a short excerpt that relates to your statement:
All this came together in a powerful movement to hold the denomination and its institutions accountable. "Believing that heaven and hell are the only destinies and that everyone alive will spend eternity in one or the other, and further that Jesus and His atoning death provides the only way to avoid hell and inherit heaven, conservatives were determined to prevent the slide of Baptists into the labyrinth of formerly-effective denominations whose evangelistic zeal and missionary fervor had been stripped by rising doubts about the veracity of Scripture. The goal, then, was to keep the denomination close to a reliable Bible for the sake of evangelistic and missionary outreach."
There is no doubt that both power (institutional control) and evangelistic beliefs played key roles in the redirection of the SBC. And any effort involving political power struggles, even if it is denominational or church politics, can get ugly. But that does not mean that the controversy was not centered in theology or that it was about transitioning the SBC toward a “seeker friendly gospel”. The very core of the controversy was whether or not the Bible was really divine revelation, trustworthy, inerrant, and infallible.
I personally knew more than a few denominational leaders, pastors, and members of those pastors’ churches, who simply did not believe that the Bible is inerrant, and I knew even more who did not think that it was an important issue. I have friends and family who were taught in Southern Baptist colleges and seminaries, prior to the conservative resurgence, things such as that Adam & Eve were not real historical people, that Moses did not write the book of Genesis, that there was no mass exodus of Israel out of Egypt, that miracles recorded in the Bible did not happen, that the book of Isaiah was written by two or three different people, that the book of Daniel must have been written after the rise of the Roman empire (because there is no way that such accurate descriptions of the Persian, Greek, and Roman empires could have been written before those things happened), that the gospel accounts were written by men who lived decades to centuries after Jesus lived, rather than by the apostles, that Peter did not write the book of 2 Peter … and on and on.
So the convention controversy was most definitely about theology. Those formerly in control of the convention who either did not believe the Bible was trustworthy, or believed that it really didn’t matter, were the ones who truly promoted a weak ideal of evangelism – if they considered evangelism important at all. By minimizing the theological basis of the SBC controversy, you minimize the seriousness of the impact of liberal theology on the lives of millions of Christians worldwide.
Some on this blog are probably young enough, or not aware of SBC history enough, to realize that a key player in the start and success of the conservative resurgence was Adrian Rogers. They probably don’t realize that your criticism of the conservative resurgence and of the current edition of the Baptist Faith & Message are just further attempts on your part to discredit and criticize Adrian Rogers simply because he was not a Calvinist. Your equation of “seeker friendly” gospel with anything that is not Calvinism is disingenuous. You know that people on this blog have concerns about Purpose Driven or seeker sensitive teachings and methods, and you are attempting to piggy back onto those concerns and use them as an opportunity to criticize Adrian Rogers.
I am sure you are sincere in your beliefs and that you genuinely desire to help others better understand the truths of God’s Word concerning salvation. But there must be a more positive and constructive means you can use to persuade people of the truth of your theological position than these constant attacks on the beliefs and character of a dedicated servant of God, who knew, loved, trusted, and preached Jesus.
WS, you may be surprised to learn that Al Mohler teaches an SS class in an Arminian SBC church..
I'm just sayin' (as you southerners say..)
Karen wrote:
"One guy's got a blue shirt - doesn't make him Blue Man Group?"
Not on my screen.
"Also, as far as a Discovery Class goes, in my opinion, it's beneficial to the new member. I really don't think it's a REQUIREMENT for membership as much as a tool to help the new member get assimilated to the church activities."
I think it's fine if new members want to attend. I don't think it should be a requirement for membership.
"Rob Mullins was hired at GBC to do this ministry, so I suggest asking him if it's a requirement for membership."
I was speaking only about BBC's membership requirements. I don't know if it's a requirement at GBC or not, but it most definitely is at BBC.
This is an email Rick Warren sent to his network of pastors right before the Fox News Christmas Special. Please pay particular attention to the 40 Days of Vision. It is set for Fall 2007.
40 Days of Vision
This is the outline of the information that appears in the Bellevue Today bulletin every week:
How to Become a Bellevue member
Step 1
Present yourself for membership during any Worship Service when the invitation is given.
Step 2
Express your desire for membership through one of the following means:
Profession of faith
Transfer of membership from another Southern Baptist Church
By statement of faith
Step 3
Attend the New Member "Step" class for new members.
After you've completed these steps, we will joyfully receive you as a member of Bellevue Baptist Church and you will begin to fully enjoy the benefits and blessings of being a part of our family of friends.
NASS,
Hmmmmmm....so does that mean baptism isn't required for membership in a Baptist church??
Junk,
Your 10:43 post. right on.
Your 12:15 post, yeah, what about baptism? Does it not matter anymore? If not, what really does?
It is getting really scary. What constitutes a Baptist church anymore? Is that going the way of the dinosaur?
oc,
I'm guessing that baptism is still required for membership at BBC, but that it just isn't explicitly spelled out in the steps (just like the content of the class isn't spelled out). But then the questions becomes, "Why not at least mention baptism?" I can think of only three reasons: (1) A serious oversight -- which borders on incompetence ("Oops, we forgot about baptism!), or (2) An intentional de-emphasis on something that might be considered not seeker friendly ("Let's not mention baptism so we don't scare off the non-Baptists"), or (3) It really isn't part of the requirements ("Baptism isn't important"). None of the options is very attractive.
Junk,
Yeah, something's wrong with all of those. But I think #2 is probably the most likely. We wouldn't require anyone to make a public stand for Jesus, would we? That may make some uncomfortable. And we don't want no sissies to be uncomfortable, do we? After all, don't we want to make this a 'feel good' religion? Man, I'm getting sick. I gotta stop for now.
junk, oc,
Baptism by immersion is still a requirement for membership. You can look at any bulletin to see the full text. I was just showing the 3-step outline, as I didn't feel like transcribing the whole thing. I apologize. I didn't mean to imply baptism wasn't a requirement.
NBBCOF,
Thanks. I was about to vomit. And I apologize for jumping the gun.
OC.
Thanks, NASS. I'm glad to hear I was wrong!
I also apologize for getting ahead of myself!
One thing I remember from the "old days" of my youth was that it was standard practice for a person coming forward for membership in a Baptist church to be presented by the pastor to the congregation and an actual vote (all for, then any opposed) would be taken. Then later it became common to hear the pastor say just something like "Everyone who affirms this person's decision say 'Amen'" (with no option provided to vote against). A few years after that, it just became an announcement like, "This person has decided to join with us in membership amd ministry" (sometimes followed by applause, but no option to say either for or against). And now membership is just automatic after following whatever the steps are -- and if the congregation is informed of new members at all it is as part of whatever statistics are published.
oc, I think I may be a dinosaur!
Just catching up on reading all of yesterdays blogroll.
God Bless you Ima for your faithful witness regarding the unholy "vision casting ".
Secondly, ... as per GBC..
as per my own take on what I have heard from all of you and what is either being allowed into GBC or currently being practiced (vision casting, etc.)..and Ken Whitten being on the "short list " of candidates...and Gary Smalley being an invited seminar speaker..
I would give this warning...
Despite all claims to the contrary,...
The virus is at GBC...
Sadly, the virus is almost everywhere else, too...
But..
Spiritually speaking, ..this virus is MORE deadly than the bubonic plague...because it kills spiritually...
I dont suggest donning protective facemasks,and trying to wade through the good or neutral stuff , while seeking to avoid the "germs" . I advise that the only spiritually healthy thing to do with GBC is to avoid the free floating virus present there.
If I have learned nothing from plain Bible Study, and decades of research , it is this ..
Once any "leadership" is "open " to the new ways of "doing church" ...barring a miracle..the leadership will NEVER deviate from that track, but will rather continue to show signs of spiritual atrophy and growing apostasy. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. GBC is leavened fully.
This isnt the OLD DAYS...This is the NEW AGE...and once the "hooks" are into a few of the so calld leaders at the top...they will never abandon their "NEW VISION ".
Most will not understand the gravity of what I am reporting, but to those whom God allows spiritual eye salve...
Here it is in plain speak..
GET OUT NOW ...
RUN
STAY AWAY...
Danger Will Robinson...Danger !
junk99mail said...
I also apologize for getting ahead of myself!
One thing I remember from the "old days" of my youth was that it was standard practice for a person coming forward for membership in a Baptist church to be presented by the pastor to the congregation and an actual vote (all for, then any opposed) would be taken. Then later it became common to hear the pastor say just something like "Everyone who affirms this person's decision say 'Amen'" (with no option provided to vote against). A few years after that, it just became an announcement like, "This person has decided to join with us in membership amd ministry" (sometimes followed by applause, but no option to say either for or against). And now membership is just automatic after following whatever the steps are -- and if the congregation is informed of new members at all it is as part of whatever statistics are published.
oc, I think I may be a dinosaur!
I remember that stuff from my youth in Oklahoma.
I also remember funky green punch made of 7up & gingerale with a big foamy block of lime sherbert floating in the middle of the punchbowl.
junk99mail
your posting incites me to up my postings to a new level.
"You people" want a free rein to say anything you please sbout Steve and Donna Gaines (I don't esteem one man over another) You will resort to any accusations concerning personal lives and now you are attacking Rob Mullins who I know personally. I don't have to tell you how much I despise SG's preaching and theology.
Steve Gaines inherited 90% of the mess of Bellevue. He walked willingly into a situation only a fool would have done.
I will not stop posting because of your idol worship.
I have a job to go to so I am off-line but I will be back this evening and I hope to cool off by then.
watchman said...
and Gary Smalley being an invited seminar speaker..
REPLY:
I have never heard of Gary Smalley. What is your take on him?
watchinghistory,
please hear this: We are not attacking anyone. This discussiion is about the PURPOSE DRIVEN CHURCH MOVEMENT at BBC and at GBC. We mentioned the job description posted in the GBC bulletin for Rob Mullins. No one is attacking Rob Mullins.
bin wonderin x2 wrote:
"Just curious, are people encouraged to bring a Bible to the 'new membership' class, or is it not necessary."
Not necessary. Actually, they'd get in the way of the doughnuts, orange juice, coffee, new member packets, and "spiritual gifts" and "temperament" surveys spread out on the tables.
Watchinghisstory,
Whoa. Cool your rockets. I see no attack on the character of anyone. And where is the 'idol worship' in Junk's post? Easy, big fella. If anything, your description of bloggers here as 'you people' may be taken as an offense, but I don't think it will. I think you are assuming too much. Take a deep breath.
Karen wrote:
"What have I missed as a member of BBC or a Christian, for that matter, by not be REQUIRED to take this class?"
The loss of 1 hour and 15 minutes of sleep... plus free doughnuts, orange juice, and coffee.
New BBC Open Forum said...
bin wonderin x2 wrote:
"Just curious, are people encouraged to bring a Bible to the 'new membership' class, or is it not necessary."
Not necessary. Actually, they'd get in the way of the doughnuts, orange juice, coffee, new member packets, and "spiritual gifts" and "temperament" surveys spread out on the tables.
9:10 AM, April 28, 2007
Yeah - those Bibles are always gettin' in the way of something.
The contract to provide these surveys to megas must be pretty lucrative. Seems like they are all getting into that. It's amazing the church survived for 1900+ years before these helpful tools came along.
Hey Lindon. Your southern vocabulary word for today is fixin'. As in... I'm fixin' to mow the grass.
Thanks for the answers from last night - NASS, no blue shirt - it was the glare on my screen - sorry! :)
This movement is so pervasive and intrusive that Baptist churches on the whole are being converted to PD. Ok, now where are we supposed to go to church? Seriously, what are we supposed to do if all the churches in the area are subject to being converted to PD, if they haven't been already?
karen
Charlie...
Excuse me for interupting, but here is a good start...personality profiling.
Gary Smalley
There is more...
Ima
Here, Gary Smalley provides testing to Discover Your Personality
Beginning to add up for you?
Colossians 2:8
"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ."
Ima,
I got an email from Charlotte!
Gary Smalley, Pastors.com, Rick Warren
Karen said...
Thanks for the answers from last night - NASS, no blue shirt - it was the glare on my screen - sorry! :)
This movement is so pervasive and intrusive that Baptist churches on the whole are being converted to PD. Ok, now where are we supposed to go to church? Seriously, what are we supposed to do if all the churches in the area are subject to being converted to PD, if they haven't been already?
karen
10:43 AM, April 28, 2007
I guess we're out of luck if all the churches are converted to PD. If that happens, I'll spend more time in the bowling alley. I don't wanna waste my time listening to garbage :). I'd rather spend that time doing something else!
Amy...so I heard.
BTW, I might be mistaken, but I think either last year or the year before, Gary Smalley spoke to the Career group at Bellevue one Sunday morning. (Instead of us going to Sunday school class, the entire Career group met in the Fellowship Hall to listen to him)
Lynn said, "This movement is so pervasive and intrusive that Baptist churches on the whole are being converted to PD. Ok, now where are we supposed to go to church? Seriously, what are we supposed to do if all the churches in the area are subject to being converted to PD, if they haven't been already?"
Reply: Lynn, this is so very sad. It has already been a nightmare in much of the country. The South is really the last to feel this impact in the US. However, it doesn't make the pain any less painful does it? If there is nothing out there available our choice is home church. And I do not minimize home church. I actually see a future in it. Do a study on it and see if it is for you. In fact, this was the early church wasn't it? We don't know how nor where God is leading us...but we must follow. That much we do know.
I have been following this blog since its beginning and my heart
breaks for all of you. Most importantly, I understand. That is the key...understanding in what we are seeing transpire before us.
What ever we do, we need to keep in touch and encourage one another. We will come up wtih something.
It has been such a blessing to me to have friends through all this.
I am so grateful to know all of you.
Ima
Help!:o
You have mail.
Regardless of how all this happened, and all that's behind it, there's a more powerful cause behind all causes, and that is the LORD. We know He causes all things to work together for good for those who love Him...the "called according to His purpose". He will plant each one where He will grow, use and bless them. Though leaving a church home is always a grievous, wrenching process, the LORD is gracious and full of mercy, and will guide us to where He desires us to go, and comfort us in the process. Trust in His wisdom, power and love for His people.
Charlie,
Here is what I know about Gary Smalley, and I posted it awhile back when GBC first announced he was coming in May.
IMO it's a "take what you need and leave the rest" kind of package. He did all that "Love Languages" stuff. My husband and I actually attended a Love Language Series where we went through Gary Smalley’s book. One of our old staff members did it, over four Sunday nights, a couple of years ago.
Smalley uses scripture, but a lot of his stuff is suggestions on communication, ways to show your love, etc…As far as grounding your marriage on obedience to God and His Word, consequences of not following the way God designed marriage, etc…. it wasn’t mentioned. I thought it was fun, but my husband wanted more meat and less “psycho babble”(his words). He was a good sport, but wouldn’t have gone back if I hadn’t enjoyed it. This was when we didn’t have church on Sunday nights I might add, so we weren’t replacing it with a worship service.
I am not worried about the direction of GBC based on this conference. If we start hearing,
“Adding Sizzle to Your Marriage” sermons from the pulpit, that would be different.
I actually won a ticket to the seminar in my Sunday School class, and am trying to talk my husband into going, wish me luck!
Ima,
I just looked at the Pastor.com link you provided.
In all the descriptions of the series Rick Warren has put together, the Bible isn't mentioned once-I guess you don't need it with Rick Warren!
You know, I have seen so much P.D stuff, yet it never ceases to amaze me the arrogance of this movement.
When BBC hosted their Women's Conference last year, the corridors were filled with vendors. I hope GBC doesn't go that route.
from the pastors.com website:
Focus on Christian worldview with Rick Warren and Chuck Colson
I have been so disappointed in Chuck Colson. First it was the ECT and now Rick Warren? At least he speaks out against Emergent. But, really, what is the difference?
At 7:57 AM, April 28, 2007
WatchingHISstory said...
junk99mail
your posting incites me to up my postings to a new level.
Then I failed in my intent. My desire was to incite you (stir you up) to love and good works, per Hebrews 10:24.
"You people" want a free rein to say anything you please sbout Steve and Donna Gaines (I don't esteem one man over another) You will resort to any accusations concerning personal lives and now you are attacking Rob Mullins who I know personally. I don't have to tell you how much I despise SG's preaching and theology.
I understand and sypmathize with your frustration. But any inappropriate criticisms made against SG or anyone else (which, if you've paid attention, aren't coming from me) do not justify you doing the same against AR.
Steve Gaines inherited 90% of the mess of Bellevue. He walked willingly into a situation only a fool would have done.
Many of the problems BBC is now facing are indeed the result of practices and traditions in place long before SG arrived. But I disagree with equating the fact that AR was not a Calvinist with PD or seeker theology. They are not the same thing. There are Calvinists in the PD/seeker movements (e.g., Sam Shaw) and there are non-Calvinists (e.g., many of the participants on this blog) who are against PD/seeker theology.
Please keep in mind that Calvinism is not the same thing as the gospel. While I believe that all 5 points of "TULIP" are biblical truth, I do not believe it is necessary to be a Calvinist preach the gospel. The facts of the gospel (Christ's substitutionary, atoning death on the cross, His resurrection, etc.) and the human response required (repentance and faith) are believed and preached faithfully by both Calvinists and non-Calvinists (like AR). It is simply not fair or accurate to blame any problems BBC is facing with PD/seeker teachings on the fact that AR was not a Calvinist.
I will not stop posting because of your idol worship.
If that was "your" directed at me specifically, you will have a hard time producing any evidence of me worshipping AR. I admire him for his love of God, his faithfulness to the Bible, his pastoral heart, and his Christ-centered preaching. Such admiration is appropriate, not idol worship.
I have a job to go to so I am off-line but I will be back this evening and I hope to cool off by then.
I did not mean to anger you. I obviously hit a nerve, but that's something I recommend you pray over before responding further. But I do welcome any well reasoned and civil response.
Amy said, "You know, I have seen so much P.D stuff, yet it never ceases to amaze me the arrogance of this movement."
Me either Amy! The arrogance of the people, the leadership, still just floors me!
Amy said...
I actually won a ticket to the seminar in my Sunday School class, and am trying to talk my husband into going, wish me luck!
REPLY:
From all the not so flattering posts concerning Gary Smalley, you might want to borrow my SHREDDER instead!!!!!!!
amy,
I'm with you. Nobody (not even the most godly believers) has it all right, and rarely does anybody (not even the most ungodly unbelievers) have it all wrong. Your knowledge of the scriptures and the Holy Spirit within you will give you discernment so that you can learn and apply what is good and disregard the rest.
Junk,
You are right. How many perfect sermons have we ever heard?
watching history said:
Steve Gaines inherited 90% of the mess of Bellevue. He walked willingly into a situation only a fool would have done.
SOTL says:
WHAT????? ARE YOU KIDDING ME????
You think that SG is a fool for walking into a situation that he has FULL and FREE reign? He was able to negotiate a salary that is twice of AR, he has folks signing contracts pledging their allegience to him, he has naive people defending him REGARDLESS of what he does.
If he had wanted to " fix" the situation at BBC, he could have done so, because he rules with an iron fist. At any moment, he could have called a meeting to write new bylaws.
I have NO idea what YOU are talking about!!!
But let's get this straight:
STEVE GAINES IS NOT THE VICTIM!!!
junk99mail
"I understand and sypmathize with your frustration. But any inappropriate criticisms made against SG or anyone else (which, if you've paid attention, aren't coming from me) do not justify you doing the same against AR."
I was wrong to include you in with those who are inappropiately critizing SG and I ask your forgiveness however Your implication that anything that I have said about AR does not in anyway compare to the inappropriate criticisam of SG on this blog. I have attempted to keep my criticisms to theological issues in a Christ-like spirit as NASS has directed us on the Blog.
How can you honestly discuss the mess at BBC without discussing the previous administration? AR and BBC are inseperate. You cannot just ignor his influence as painful as it is for some of you.
You cannot have one set of ground rules for SG and another for AR.
My statement toward you as an "idol worshipper" was wrong however it does apply on this blog.
I pray I am reasoned and civil however passionately I may feel about something.
sotl
"If he had wanted to " fix" the situation at BBC, he could have done so, because he rules with an iron fist. At any moment, he could have called a meeting to write new bylaws."
Why didn't AR "fix" the situation in preparation for a new administration? At any moment he could have called a meeting to write new bylaws.
Yes, SG is partially a victim. Incredible isn't it?
What happened during AR's tenure is irrelevant at this point since he's not here to defend himself. Fact of the matter is, Gaines is in charge now. So I think instead of trying to shift the focus off the Moonbat king onto the previous administion, we need to pressure the moonbats to resolve the issues. But then again, Gaines has no desire to resolve the problems. More and more people are leaving instead of staying and fighting the forces of evil that have taken over Bellevue.
watchinghisstory said, Yes, SG is partially a victim. Incredible isn't it?
reply: Yes. Incredible. As in no credibility. I agree. What you just said has no credibility. Because it makes no sense.
"Yes, SG is partially a victim. Incredible isn't it?"
A victim of what?
offline
AR left a tangled mess at Bellevue and SG inherited it. That makes a lot of sense. SG has done a terrible job untangling the mess and creating some of his own tangles.
lynn says:
"Warning, some of my takes may not be politically correct. So if my take offends you...deal with it. I am entitled to my opinion just as you are entitled to yours."
"What happened during AR's tenure is irrelevant at this point since he's not here to defend himself. Fact of the matter is, Gaines is in charge now. So I think instead of trying to shift the focus off the Moonbat king onto the previous administion, we need to pressure the moonbats to resolve the issues. But then again, Gaines has no desire to resolve the problems. More and more people are leaving instead of staying and fighting the forces of evil that have taken over Bellevue."
What happened during AR's tenure is very relevant and the fact that one of his followers calls the present pastor a "moonbat King" is a product of his legacy that he would not be proud of.
That is my politically incorrect opionion and deal with it, lynn.
watchinghisstory,
Whatever anybody else did or didn't do before sg got to BBC, he is the pastor now. Don't act like sg is some kind of martyr. He didn't come into this blind and without plenty of compensation. He made sure of that.
SG is NOT a victim. Not ONE BIT.
We are not talking about Adrian Rogers, whom you obviously have a beef. WE are talking about Steve Gaines. HE could have called a meeting to re write the by laws.
He is in the mess he is in by his own lust for power and money.
HE IS NOT A VICTIM!!!
Good Grief.
oc
He is partially a victim and certainly not a martyr.
I am not a follower of Dr. Rogers.
I am a follower of the truth. The fact of the matter is, Gaines is in charge now. Its like a baseball team. The players may have joined under the previous coach, but the current coach is still culpable since he is the person in charge now. Perhaps you should go and cool off a bit. Your allowing your dislike for Dr. Rogers to cloud the issues.
Next, Watching History will be telling us that PW is a victim, too.
sotl
could AR have called a meeting to rewrite the bylaws? Yes or No
That's irrevelant, and you know it. We did not have a problem with the bylaws under Dr. R. You are expecting that Dr. R. should have seen that SG was power hungry and money hungry.
Dr. R. was only human. He did not see into the future. In his wildest dreams he would not have imagined that Sg would have deceived him in such a manner.
You obviously have a beef with OUR Dr. Rogers.
SG was DELIGHTED to find things the way they were, and has had NO desire to change them. It has put him squarely in charge where no one is ALLOWED to question him. The deacons are not allowed to even SPEAK in the deacons meetings.
Lay off Dr. Rogers. He's not here to defend himself.
lynn
why have you stopped refering to Gaines as king moonbat?
SOTL,
Leave this alone. Someone is just trying to pick a fight and won't listen to reason.
sotl
For some Biblical reason I would expect AR to see that SG was money hungry. Acts 5:3
Peter was human too!
::::: eye roll::::::::
Carniac the magnificent?
Watching,
This was your agenda when I first began to notice you. Then you actually stopped acting so spooky for a while.
Maybe that was one of your other personalities.
You fit right into the culture of the world. Paint the guilty ones into the victim.
We KNOW Bro R was human. That in no way puts him in the same box with King Stevie.....Bro R didn't teach me that....I am just mean that way.
You will not persuade any of us to stop loving Bro R.
It is not idol worship to love someone.
We know he loved us. He showed us.
We are not interested in your disrespect of the dead or the beloved or of us for that matter.
oc
If you are a counselor and you say something I don't agree with does that make me unreasonable?
And if I disagree with a counselor does that mean I am trying to start a fight?
How much do you charge for your sessions?
WHS,
Brother, I don't know what your problem is, but instead of having a litte CHIP on your shoulder, you have the entire TREE, roots and all. You have had a BITTER attitude toward Dr. Rogers and the SBC from day one.
I totally agree with the rest of the posters, Steve Gaines AINT NO VICTIM. He knew EXACTLY what the situation was. IMHO, he saw it as the IDEAL situation, where he could waltz in unfettered and take over. That is exactly what he did.
WHS,
I am NOT a Doctor, but if I were, I would be happy to prescribe VALIUM for you. Since I can't, hows bout I prescribe a CHILL PILL?
WS: AR left a tangled mess at Bellevue and SG inherited it. That makes a lot of sense. SG has done a terrible job untangling the mess and creating some of his own tangles.
8:12 PM, April 28, 2007
WS, As someone who has witnessed many 'regime' changes in business and in the church world, I can tell you that people can be and act VERY different depending on the situation and circumstances. Is this sin? Yes. It only proves that people are following the lead of men rather than Christ.
I am witnessing a situation right now where the sr pastor MENTORED the associate for 17 years before he took over. After the sr pastor leaves...guess what? He is disrespected in many ways by the new pastor who is changing everything including doctrinal teachings which is grieving the old pastor. How come the Sr pastor did not discern this would happen or what was in this associate pastors heart all along?
Maybe GOD did NOT want him to.
watchinghisstory,
If it was a matter of ageeing or disagreeing, that would be fine. But what you are doing is making a big effort to be disagreeable. You started off this morning wanting conflict, said you were going to work and said maybe you would cool off. You didn't. You worked all day and came back here to continue your tirade. You have made it obvious that you want to cause conflict.
How much do I charge? For you, buddy, nothing. Are you thinking you need some help?
oc,
I'm still holding on to the bobble head dog for you. Least I can do for a brother.
cf
"I totally agree with the rest of the posters, Steve Gaines AINT NO VICTIM. He knew EXACTLY what the situation was. IMHO, he saw it as the IDEAL situation, where he could waltz in unfettered and take over. That is exactly what he did."
And AR didn't see it comming!! And the pulpit committee neither. Wonder where was God during all this? Maybe he was sleeping and hadn't been awakened! I KIngs 18:27
Charlie,
Thanks, bro.
WS, Who are some of your 'human only' hero's of the faith?
Think of that for a moment and you know I am setting you up...because if they were human, I can find some discernment issues with every single one of them.
I am not talking about willfully ignoring scripture like Gaines did.
..I am talking basic discernment issues. We can start with Luther go on to Calvin then onto Edwards...and go from there...
oc
I did go to work, I did cool off and am overcome with reasonableness.
But can't we all do with a little counseling especially if it is free? But don't call me buddy, that sounds so unprofessional. I won't call you shrink. ha!
whs said...
And AR didn't see it comming!!
REPLY:
Oh, but that I could ask him that.
I reserve that right to withhold my comments on the search committee.
"I'm still holding on to the bobble head dog for you. Least I can do for a brother. "
What? No bobble-head Elvis?
(I am trying to come up with some way to work 'fixin' into a sentence...it is not as easy as it sounds...)
lin
my father, my pastor, Garland Griffis, Hollis Gause, Donald Bowdle, Adrian Rogers, just to name a few.
"my father, my pastor, Garland Griffis, Hollis Gause, Donald Bowdle,"
Thanks, that really helps with my discernment example. :o(
mmmmmm...daddy issues?
Lin said...
"I'm still holding on to the bobble head dog for you. Least I can do for a brother. "
What? No bobble-head Elvis?
(I am trying to come up with some way to work 'fixin' into a sentence...it is not as easy as it sounds...)
REPLY:
The dog is to go on the back shelf of oc's new car that socwork owes him.
Fixin ain't a problem for us Southern folk.
lin
opps, I set you up didn't I.
AR is one of my heroes but then heroes are only human.
You don't discern any human faults with AR? AR is up there with Luther and Calvin. Let's see Luther had his faults, Calvin had his faults and AR had his faults.
My father has faults but I can't discern any at the moment, but maybe my perception is clouded.
You use "I'm fixin" instead of "I'm gonna", or as folk from other parts would say, "I am going to".
There was only ONE human without faults, and HE died on a CROSS for OUR SINS.
cf
no argument from me on that
Jesus is Lord and God
off-line g-nite
I'm fixin to get myself ready for bed so I can drag myself to church tomorrow.
WS, I give up. Ya know...it would help if you would just come out and say what is really eating at you about this whole thing.
Yes, the SBC has been heading in the wrong direction...yes, AR and others had faults or discernment issues...me too...
I still cannot understand how you think any of that releases Gaines from willfully ignoring scripture and harboring a pedophile minister. We are in the here and now...lets deal with what is happening right now.
And, you never answered my question: What is Gaines a victim of?
gmommylv said...
I'm fixin to get myself ready for bed so I can drag myself to church tomorrow.
REPLY:
I'm fixin to do the same. Lin, see how easy that is. Don't they say "fixin" in North Kentucky?
Nite ALL.
"I'm fixin to do the same. Lin, see how easy that is. Don't they say "fixin" in North Kentucky?"
yeah, but we are actually 'fixin' something....like dinner. :o)
Good Morning, Ya'll.
I'm fixin to get dressed to visit Faith Baptist.
Have a great day!
After reading this, I'm fixin' to be sick.
I'm fixin' to forever boycott Lifeway........
because they are fixin' to really hack me off.........
New BBC Open Forum said...
After reading this, I'm fixin' to be sick.
REPLY:
Ima will have a field day with this!!
Steve Gaines, may I suggest that you reread 1 Peter 5:1-8. It appears that you have totally forgotten this chapter.
Posted:
No, it's not funny at all that a pastor and his cronies climb over a fence to "reconcile" with a brother
Reply: Can we please get over this stuff? We have ALL trespassed and meant nothing by it. We all speed in our cars everyday. Their actions were not good of course, but please do not take them to a level they should not be.
It's not funny when said brother is called "hezbollah" by said pastor
Reply: That is not what was said.
It's not funny when the pastor lies about having a dream
Reply: You are being dishonest and lying yourself to act like you know the facts about the "dream".
It's not funny when the pastor's daughter's cheerleading camp is paid from church funds
Reply: Facts please!
It's not funny that the former pastor of our church is locked out of his office
Reply: It was no longer his office, how hard is that?
It's not funny that Steve Gaines inlaws were rude to BBC members during the "monkey business meeting"
Reply: I was there and I know them. That is a bold faced lie. They were actually very nice. They were not the ones being rude.
Its also not funny that Gaines harbored a pedophile for 6 months after he became aware of it. If Gaines used some common sense, he would have fired him on the spot instead of giving him a pay raise.
Since NASS corrected me, I can say;
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!!!!!!!!!
Charlie said, "Ima will have a field day with this!!"
Reply...Oh, I have already done my OWN research on this Charlie. I could make you more sick. You want me to send you a copy?
You guys really need to register for the True Chruch Conference coming up at Jeff Noblit's church starting this Thursday! I plan to be there...can't wait! This man tells it like it is. And Paul Washer is going to speak...wow!
(And that is the first and only time I have ever said 'wow' on this blog!)
offline...
imaresistor said...
Charlie said, "Ima will have a field day with this!!"
Reply...Oh, I have already done my OWN research on this Charlie. I could make you more sick. You want me to send you a copy?
REPLY: I know you have. That is the reason for my comment. I too, have done some digging. It ain't pretty.
I find it sad and amusing that anyone is still attempting to take up for Steve Gaines - especially here.
The facts are out and we know what he is. Go try to mislead some folks who don't know and quit wasting your time here, troll.
Oh, excuse me, the troll must be at the book signing - which I hear, by the way, is actually a fictional novel. :)
And its not even an original title.
Someone came out with a book with the SAME NAME 7 years ago.
Go on Barnes and Noble and do a search for "When God Comes to Church" and see what comes up :).
If I had a signed copy of SG's new book, I could put it next to my signed copy of The Purpose Driven Life. Then I would have 2 STRONG reminders of the MAJOR PROBLEMS facing our churches today.
sickofthelies said: SG was DELIGHTED to find things the way they were, and has had NO desire to change them. It has put him squarely in charge where no one is ALLOWED to question him. The deacons are not allowed to even SPEAK in the deacons meetings.
Reply: Those are bold faced lies!!
new bbc said: Not necessary. Actually, they'd get in the way of the doughnuts, orange juice, coffee, new member packets, and "spiritual gifts" and "temperament" surveys spread out on the tables.
Reply: It is very easy to see that many of you do not serve in the areas you claim to know something about.
To air that on a blog. How whiny and ridiculous.
Lost. Confused. Frustrated. Embarrassed. These are just some of the feelings that were roaming through the choir this morning. We did not know the SONG we sang but were expected to sing it loud and clear. Why did we not know it? Because we first need to practice it and not by listenting to a CD. Listening to a CD is fine but we need to practice. Also with a little practice we would not sound like a bunch of 6th graders. Jamie needs to understand that some of the older people cannot go up and down stairs like we did this morning. That is an accident waiting to happen. What a good way to get rid of the few choir members that are left. Lost. Confused. Frustrated. Embarrassed. Not too much longer.
charlie fox wrote:
"Ima will have a field day with this!!"
Who do you think sent it to me?
witq wrote:
"It's not funny that Steve Gaines inlaws were rude to BBC members during the "monkey business meeting
"Reply: I was there and I know them. That is a bold faced lie. They were actually very nice. They were not the ones being rude."
It is NOT a lie. I promise you, you have NO idea what you're talking about. No one was rude to them, but Donna's sister was very rude to the people sitting behind her. She and her daughter, who aren't members of Bellevue, also voted on every motion presented.
New BBC Open Forum said...
charlie fox wrote:
"Ima will have a field day with this!!"
Who do you think sent it to me?
REPLY: OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
New BBC Open Forum...
Charlie Fox...
You two are making me dizzy.
Thing is...the problems in the churches today are coming from within the SBC/Lifeway and are spreading throughout all of the churches. The same is true of all the churches and the publishing arms. Sure, the culture changes...but sin doesn't. God's plan of salvation hasn't changed. It is the same today as it was two thousand years ago. A sinner is a sinner. Show me where the bible says the way to salvation is through entertainment, drama, etc. fun...it isn't there.
Just my opinion, of course.
Why is the question? said...
To air that on a blog. How whiny and ridiculous.
Speaking of whiny and ridiculous..why are you here? You add no value to anything.
Your almost like the two old men in the balcony on the muppets that watch the show then just make stupid jokes and statements about everything....except the muppets are funny.
Are you even a member? I believe I read that your not even SB, is that correct?
You act like you know what is going on @ BBC & SBC but it is VERY apparent that you are just blowing smoke.
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