Two petitions concerning the leadership at Bellevue are now online.
The first is the Postpone the Ordination of David Coombs petition which many of you have already signed. The ordination is scheduled for this Sunday, February 25th, so don't delay.
The second is entitled Should They Go?.
Please stop by and sign both petitions if you haven't already.
Carol Pemberton has written another fine letter regarding the situation at Bellevue.
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658 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 658 Newer› Newest»bbc senior citizen:
You are correct. There was a time in the not so distant past that the congregation voted on whether to proceed with ordination of a candidate. It generally preceeded the council being gathered and the event by weeks.
The text of the certificate has been noted on the petition site. For that text to be true a vote should be taken imo.
Sorry soc, you have mail!
imaresitor, I have personally heard David preach a number of occassions. But what's you point. You may want to qualify preaching as well.
It could well be in the best interest of the resistors to slide right on by the posts of JMO and Memphis. Things are too crucial to allow these folks to come here to create havoc. Keep your focus and don't allow these people to create confusion. They know how to pull your strings. Don't allow it.
re: the ordination of DC on sunday evening.
Don't know about the rest of you, but I know for myself, it's too much for me to watch how far we have fallen as a church.
I can't stomach it.
Just My Opinion said...
"imaresitor, I have personally heard David preach a number of occassions. But what's you point. You may want to qualify preaching as well."
My question to you was where? Where have you heard him preach?
My point? The only point I have is to see these resistors who are trying desperately to salvage their church be able to do so. They are the bravest and most Godly people I know...and they are going through incredible persecution to save their church and to keep it Holy for Almighty God. The treatment that so many of these people have received at the hands of Steve Gaines and his power mongers is horrible. Nothing Christlike about it. What Mark Sharpe has tolerated nobody should have to go through and especially at the hands of men who call themselves Christians! That is my point.
JMO,
I find that if someone posts something about me or something I've said, it helps to simply ask for clarification first, or simply clarify what you were trying to communicate originally, rather than jumping to the conclusion that someone has intentionally misrepresented you.
After the PCIR, I'd take any preaching with a grain of salt from this guy, that is if I caould stay awake.
OK, JMO, this is where you cry foul.
If you patronize or insult the intelligences of people with ridiculous arguments, then that too is crass.
I just finished watching the movie Amazing Grace. What an inspiration! William Wilberforce was a man of God who faced incredible odds to end slave trade in Great Britain 200 years ago. He battled 300 members of Parliament with a tiny band of men who knew they were in the right and won against seemingly impossible odds. Don't see it unless you want a big dose of encouragement.
Dear JMO: Sometime your rationalilzations are amusing. You say that PW had only one victim so we should not worry. What do you call continually sexually abusing someone for a 12 to 18 month period? I call it a living nightmare for the victim. But boy according to your spin we can be relieved now can't we? Well my response is that was one victim too many.
You also say that a pedophile can be cured. I do want to agree with you. But are you really willing to allow your children or grandchildren to spend time with them alone if they are so cured? Did you miss the steps this victim took to protect his own children?
As far as you assumpion about going to the staff on his own; your are a little short on the on that one. The whole thing started over the question of being qualified for the ministry. And that question came from the victim.
Now let me ask you a question. Are you suggesting that a "cured" pedophile would be ok in the ministry. I pray the answer is no.
Yes, they maybe "cured" but they MUST live with the consequences of their "moral failure" (I rather call it their crime). But the reality of it is, the victim has to live with the consequences, not the perp.
I know you have been harsh on SOTL and myself. I really don't care what you think or feel about me. I am not doing this for you. I am doing it for countless victims and trying to protect innocent children. I wish I could share with you the emails and phone calls I have gotten from them. They are glad I am here. I do give Him all the glory for taking me from being a victim to survivor to an advocate. I would think there should be more joy in that. And I do know many advocates. You are hearing from some them now and you do not like it. As I said the other night, tough.
Yesterday while I was giving two press interviews at THEIR requests, I received an email from victim of yet another pastor of a SBC church in Tennessee. That make two that I know of. I guess they must have been cured? Or is it they are too full of pride and self?
JMO, whether you like it or not the actions or rather inactions of the leadership at Bellevue has brought much light on a very evil crime. A crime that is very active in the SBC. But because of the attention this has drawn, many vicitms are seeking answers and help for the first time. Now that is something to get excited about.
So if you want to keep up the attacks, go for it. I have broad shoulders and very thick skin. But more importantly, I have team Captain urging me on. His name is Jesus. I follow HIM not men.
As for other vicitms out, PLEASE know there is help out there for you when you are ready. But you must know you do not have to do this alone. We are here for you.
Lastly, I have been tied up dealing with some family issues this past week. I am sorry for not being able to get back to some of you as I should have. I will be away from the computer for a few more days spending some much needed time with my youngest grandson. He needs a lot of loving right now. And he is going to get it. But I will be checking my email.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL!
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
sickofthelies said...
re: the ordination of DC on sunday evening.
Don't know about the rest of you, but I know for myself, it's too much for me to watch how far we have fallen as a church.
I can't stomach it.
9:28 PM, February 23, 2007
That's just what they are counting on for all of us to be discouraged and not attend Sun nite service. If you really want an opportunity to stand for what you believe in, do not fail to attend Sun night service. When asked, any opposed, STAND UP AND BE COUNTED. It's the same as not voting in politics, if you don't vote you forfeit your right to complain. Don't let leadership take away your voice!
Folks, the battle is raging. JMO has been busy all day. Did you find his suggestion of a Wed nite motion & 2nd to bring the church into a business meeting to be a bit helpful to all the resistors? As someone mentioned timing is everything, we should not be pulled into anyones web until the time is right.
STAND FOR WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN!! Do not let them win without a fight.
Folks,
I am telling you that yesterday I went to the web site here.
Sermon Notes 02-18
Yesterday it showed the sermon notes that are here:
Sermon Notes 02-25
Last nite I was telling someone to read the planned ordination sermon and it was changed back to 02-18. The 02-25 notes are still on the web server but not linked to the site.
Does it make any sense that it would have been updated yesterday to 02-25 and then some time in the evening back to 02-18?
jmo says:
I as an individual do not have trust issues so I generally take someone at their word unless proven differently.
SOTL says:
One does not have to have " trust issues" ( as you put it) to know that you do not TRUST a man who just admitted to being a child rapist!!!!
Tim,
You are right - it doesn't make sense.
In fact, for those who haven't taken a peek at those sermon notes yet, please do. It's uh... interesting.
David Brown,
Thank you!
Tim,
What do you make of it being removed? Do you think they are re-thinking the ordination?
Every time I open those sermon notes I get cold chills. This is certainly not the first time sermons have seemed to have an agenda.
David,
I hope that my email is one that has been held up. Glad to hear that it wasn't we. I was beginning to wonder if it was just me. :-{)
DAVID BROWN,
That is one lucky little fella to have a granddad like you.
Give him lots of Love & have fun!
sheepless
Please look at Tim's links and tell us what you think.
The 2/25 sermon is a scathing attack on us.
Sheepless
Sorry - we must have been posting about the same time or I hadn't refreshed.:/
ima wrote: "It could well be in the best interest of the resistors to slide right on by the posts of JMO and Memphis. Things are too crucial to allow these folks to come here to create havoc. Keep your focus and don't allow these people to create confusion. They know how to pull your strings. Don't allow it. "
Friends, I have to agree with ima here. If you go back and reread JMO's post on previous threads...you will see a pattern.
That is not meant to insult JMO...it is just and observation.
The thing that has struck me odd is that there has either been a rethinking of the sermon and ordination or it is something that is being kept on the low.
Sheepless said, "Don't let leadership take away your voice!"
Please listen to me. Sheepless is exactly right. They are wearing all of the resistors down...they have emotionally drained you. You are thinking you can't take anymore. And this IS exactly where they want you. You have fought too hard, too long, to quit now.
I sat in a congregation, listened to the 'so-called' minister from the pulpit refer to my husband and two other deacons as 'spiritual giants', troublemakers, and more; then listened as he referred to me as a gossip. And it got worse. He said to the congregation..."What are you going to do about it church?" He called us rotten apples the Sunday night before that. I have the DVD's from the services today and can prove what I am telling you. My husband and these other two guys are some of the most Godly men I have ever in my life known. What these pastors and their staff will do to you is unbelievable. I still cannot believe the extent they will go to in order to get this movement into their church. Listen to me...they do not care about you, they care only about themselves. They will stop at nothing to get what they want.
If you want to stand up for your church-no, if you want to stand up for Jesus Christ, you must be there. It may be uncomfortable...it WILL be uncomfortable. What is happening to your motivation? Believe me, God will provide the strength you need when you need it. It isn't easy, but you are fighting for your church. Don't quit now!
Piglet,
Seems like an arrow shot straight at us..Cold chills, even when I think of it! This is what in in the pulpit???!!!
Oh...what I didn't tell you was that my husband and the other two men were deacons of this church. They had caught on to the fact that the pastor and staff (and part of the rest of the deacons) were trying to transition our established church into a purpose driven church under the stealth movement...all secretly done.
This is serious stuff. Be ready for it. We didn't even know what it was for a long time. You do know what you are dealing with at least.
You folks just don't know how we pray for you in this.
Also please take note that the petition will be closed at midnight tonight.
Ordination Petition
If you really want to promote the "congregationally approved" church you need to let your voice be heard. If you don't stand up now you may not have a chance later.
Wonder why he isn't preaching on the qualifications of a pastor??? That would seem to me to be fairly logical since he is ordaining a new pastor....
(said with tongue planted firmly in cheek)
Just My Opinion,
Earlier you acknowledged the need for accountability and transparency, but you disagreed with the use of petitions. You said there is a right way and a wrong way to go about making changes and petitions are the wrong way.
Your view of petitions is understandable and I agree with you. I don’t know a single person who believes we should be using petitions to make decisions about the future of Bellevue Baptist Church.
I need to preface my question with the following:
On September 24th Chuck Taylor instructed the congregation to go to deacons if we had questions. He said they were informed and could help us answer any lingering questions. A week or so later I emailed a letter to every deacon asking some questions. I expressed no position one way or another about any of the issues that had surfaced to that point. I said calls for the pastor’s resignation were wrong. I also expressed my frustration that these issues being dealt with in the media and on the internet. I encouraged them to deal with all open questions before the church suffered an irreparable fracture.
My letter was met with a variety of responses. A significant percentage of the deacons thanked me for my concern and essentially said they had the same questions I had. Another group did not seem offended by the questions, but they assured me everything was fine and told me to trust the pastor and senior leadership. Most of those were quite gracious. Some offered to meet with me and discuss my concerns. As I recall Derrick Calcote fell into that group. I had no problem with either of those two groups of deacons.
A third group of deacons, however, blasted me for daring to ask questions and told me to never bother them again. Some just said not to bother them again. I might have understood this third group’s response if I had blasted the pastor or them. I did neither. I can only assume they did not read what I had written or they cannot understand the clear meaning of written words. Those responses were completely inappropriate for someone searching for honest answers. Actually, they were inappropriate for any deacon to send any member of Bellevue. It was this third group of deacons that caused me to dig deeper. I earnestly began seeking answers because of their dismissive and hateful attitude.
By way of review:
• Mark Sharpe sought to address the deacons. His request was denied.
• Requests for financial information have been denied. Deacon friends tell me they can not get answers either.
• We’ve had no business meetings since this drama started. Specific requests for business meetings have been ignored.
• In recent weeks Mr. Coombs prevented a meeting from taking place between a respected church member and a staff member. The church member was disturbed by statements the staff member made during a recent Sunday school class and sought to discuss them one on one. Mr. Coombs admitted to the member that he has directed the staff member not to discuss that matter again. Mr. Coombs hung up on the respected member. Matthew 18 instructs us to go to a brother privately. Mr. Coombs prevented this member from carrying out Matthew 18.
• Letters and emails to the pastor are no longer answered. According to a staff member he openly calls us, members of his church, the “adversaries.”
• The Communications Committee disbanded early. Even while in operation the most common response was “I don’t know.”
• David Brown feverishly sought a meeting with the pastor before the church knew anything about the PW affair. The pastor never responded to his phone calls or requests. David wanted to help him deal with the matter in a professional and caring way. I spoke to David multiple times each day during that week. He was not out to get the pastor. He wanted to make sure any and all victims were cared for. David’s sole goal then and now was to care for victims. His efforts to help Bellevue through this problem were ignored.
• I know a man who wrote a letter about his concerns. His wife received a phone call from a leading deacon who talked to her like she was a dog and informed her that they were “sending people to hell.” I would not be as gracious as this man was if a church leader talked to my wife the way this deacon talked to his.
• We’ve been instructed to avoid Saving Bellevue and the blog, the only sources for information not controlled by the church. Remember if Christ were alive today he would be “blogged not flogged, Amen.”
• Josh Manning and others made a request for the church membership role so they could invite all members to a meeting. Their request was denied.
I could go on, but I’ve made my point.
My question is this: under the present circumstances what is the right way to effectuate change at Bellevue? When we are chastised for even asking questions, when we are unable to obtain answers, when we cannot communicate with our leadership, when the leadership does what it can to thwart independent communication among members, what are we supposed to do? Again, you said there is a right way, what is that right way?
I want to plainly state I do not support everything done by those on my side of the fence. For months I have begged for a higher level of discourse by all. Ad hominems do neither side any good. They certainly do not help the cause of Christ. At times the rhetoric here is too hot. So, please do not believe I support everything those of my mindset have said and done. I’ve emailed friends and asked them to rewrite posts or delete them completely. I am not an apologist for all of the dissenters and their actions. However, those actions are born from frustration and all-too-often tears.
Please do not take this post as an attack on you, sir. It is not my intent to be argumenative. I find myself in agreement with many things you say. So please understand, mine is an honest question: when discourse inside the church is shut down, what are the people to do?
WTB
sheepless said:
Seems like an arrow shot straight at us..Cold chills, even when I think of it! This is what in in the pulpit???!!!
SOTL says:
It's nothing BUT evil..pure and simple.
The prevalence of evil that is in what used to be our church is overwhelming.
concernedsbcer,
Hm... I wonder why too.
Hm...
The Rich elder group Please resign......STEVE GAINES PLEASE RESIGN AS PASTOR OF Bellevue Baptist Church....Harry Smith and the TV deal Pharisee"s will you leave Bellevue when God Removes Steve Gaines or will you start your own new Willowcreek style church......Where will you go?Dont" you see the mass exodus from our church?Godly men and women who are tired of your lies and deception? Folks our church has been hijacked by self serving men...Lord Jesus please remove these phairisee"s from our church and help other Bellevue members,Yes lord continue to open their eyes to the self serving evil intentions of these money hungry men....God help us...
Ima,
Thank you for those words of encouragement, we all need it right now.
Sorry that you have experienced first hand the cruelty of self-serving leadership, you know our pain more than most.
We all need to be there..everyone that has signed the petition, everyone that is participating and everyone that is lurking on this blog. We all need to stand for Jesus and for His church.
We might also need to be prepared to voice our objections to the ordination. When we stand they just might ask us why we dissent, wouldn't that be a great opportunity to have our voices heard and enlighten the congregation of things they are clueless to.
Please everyone be there Sunday night. This just might be the most important step we take.
Less than 2,500 people in the second service last Sunday.
How do I know? From my vantage point it was easy to count each section. It took almost the whole sermon to do it.
Sign if you think they should go
We can begin to heal if they all go. Don't let a small group of men drive the entire church into a ditch. They need to step aside so trust can be restored.
ydoesit matter said...
Less than 2,500 people in the second service last Sunday.
That's out of 7,000 seats!
It was really sad the night of The Lord's Supper..a typically full sanctuary for The Lord's Supper, had many, many, many empty seats.
This is amazing...AMAZING
From the sermon:
Attacking the Holy Spirit is dangerous Mark 3: 22-29
Here is the scripture in context:
20Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
22And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Beelzebub[c]! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons."
23So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house. 28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
30He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."
Notice verse 29 which is referenced in the outline for this section of the sermon.
Ok, this is freaking me out. I have done extensive study on this verse in context. The finest theological minds for the past 2000 years do not agree on the meaning of this verse.
Some think this sin cannot be committed today. Some think this sin is about purposely hardening our heart against the Holy Spirit trying to work in us. Some think it is when we get in the way of someone else being convicted of their sin and telling them it is not that big of a deal.
DO NOT let this man use this verse as a hammer. Prayerfully consider and study before you believe anything put forth about this. I spent 10 weeks with my cousin just studying the Holy Spirit so we could even begin to try and understand this verse.
McArthur does not think this sin can be committed today, it had to be when Jesus was on earth. Piper thinks it can. I could go on and on but I wanted to give you a heads up on this and for anyone reading who may attend.
Thank you sheeplessatbbc. My husband was voted out at a business meeting. It was horrible and we didn't know it was coming. Because of this and other similarities from other churches I have since learned about, I think there is a great possibility that you all will be 'blind sided'. And I think it will probably take place in a preplanned meeting you folks know nothing about. I sense that is why Tim is checking these sermon notes so closely. And it is a good idea. But, it is most likely to come at a time when you are least expecting it, if indeed it does work this way. That is why it is so important that you all show up at all times. You all really need to be prepared for anything.
And the thing is...and I hope you and others understand what I am saying and I know you will. This is bigger than Bellevue Baptist Church; it is bigger than where we all attended for a life time; it is bigger than Gardendale in Corpus Christi, Texas; bigger than First Baptist in Dallas; bigger than Germatown Baptist, etc. etc. etc. This is about standing up for Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. This is what all of this is all about. It is not about big buildings, mega, music, praise and worship teams, drums, guitars, money, money, money, the first worship service, the second worship service, conferences, camps, trips, on and on and on. It is about Jesus Christ. This is the part that hurts so. To think that people in the church are being so destructive to the Body of Christ. What must they be thinking?
Thank you again for your kind words.
Linden,
As always, wonderful insight.
Thanks!!!
Sorry, Folks but one more thing about this 'unity' sermon that really concerns me....
You cannot preach the real meaning of unity unless you include John 17. This is when Jesus prays to the Father for the disciples and the believers. The meaning of what unity is...is very clear in this prayer. It is unity of the Word. Every single reference to unity in the NT among believers comes back to this prayer: Unity in the Word. (Remember, Jesus was the Word)
Here is the scripture in context for Unity. It is THE standard for unity among believers. Pay close attention to verses 14-19.
John 17
The High Priestly Prayer
1When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
6"I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.[a] 16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them[b] in the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19And for their sake I consecrate myself,[c] that they also may be sanctified[d] in truth.
20"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."
lindon,
I agree - it's appalling how this Scripture is used in the outline. It smacks of an attempt to control people with fear (who might not know any better and believe that "speaking against" the leadership of a church is committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.)
Puh-leaze.
ima wrote: "This is about standing up for Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. This is what all of this is all about."
Yes, my sister. He took the Wrath of God upon Himself for us. The presence of God literally left Him on that Cross and He felt the full fury of Hell for us! That is why He said, IT is Finished!
We must be prepared to contend for the truth of His Word as Stephen did.
At 10:21 PM, February 23, 2007
westtnbarrister said...
I know a man who wrote a letter about his concerns. His wife received a phone call from a leading deacon who talked to her like she was a dog and informed her that they were “sending people to hell.”
junk99mail says...
WTB,
I appreciate your posts and insights. If it wouldn't be a breach of a confidence, could you tell us the name of this deacon? I ask not only out of curiosity as to whether this would be someone well known in leadership, but also because open disclosure would disallow any claim of "rumor".
Just a side note (to no one in particular), I’ve seen people use the words "rumor" and "gossip" on this blog a good bit, but the words are often misused. By definition a rumor is "a piece of purportedly true information that circulates without substantiating evidence" and gossip is "an untruth or a mixture of truth and untruth passed from person to person, often from an undisclosed source." When someone says "I heard..." or "Is it true that... followed by a negative report, they are often accused of gossiping or spreading rumors. But that would only be the case if (1) the report is not factual or cannot be substantiated or (2) the source of the information is withheld because the veracity of the source is questionable. If a report is factual, it isn't gossip or rumor just because it happens to be something negative that the subject of the discussion wouldn't want people to know about them.
A couple of thoughts-
Quote from bbc refugee:
"Chuck Taylor stated:
Look at all the people, can God be displeased?"
You complain that he was using the "numbers and noses" as a tool for measuring the state of the congregation- but I hear comment after comment for weeks on end about how the numbers being down is a testament to God's displeasure with our church, or to the congregation's approval of things?
Are we going to count numbers and noses or not? You can't have it both ways.
And I have another question about that as well- have those of you that have withheld your tithe from your church in order to give elsewhere, or who are storing it up until you feel the situations are resolved felt any need to reduce your usage of church facilities and resources?
soc, I hope everyone will know that I am sincere here but I am more concerned for Steve Gaines than anything else. The research I did on this was interesting. Very few theologians would commit to saying exactly what they thought it meant. The few who did, thought it could not be committed today because in these verses Jesus is obviously talking about Himself at that time. Jesus is saying that the Pharisees who should know better, are willfully blaspheming the work of the Holy Spirit through Jesus by calling Him Satan. It makes sense. This is what McArthur teaches.
I am afraid the verses in Mark about a house divided against itself will be preached out of context..according to the outline. IT is clear that Jesus is responding to the Pharisees who are calling Him Satan. Jesus was saying He cannot be God and Satan at the same time and the Pharisees who have all the information should recognize that He is Messiah. It is very basic but used out of context quite a bit. That is why jumping around scriptures like this outline is so dangerous...you can make it say what you want it to say.
Teaching a false unity is very serious business. John 17, where Jesus prays before the Cross is very clear about what unity really is.
If unity is taught as always following a 'man', that is legalism.
Hi junkmail,
The couple in question discussed this with me personally roughly three months ago. This is not a rumor. I am 90% certain I remember who called them, but that 10% of doubt tells me I need to check with them before I credit (or discredit) the wrong man with making the call. I feel comfortable saying his name is one everyone would recognize.
Thanks for reading my post. I was afraid it was too long. I rarely post. When I do I want someone to see it.
WTB
WTB...
Just wanted to say that I appreciate your feelings on posting. Though you might not think so in reading my posts, I am always very hesitant to post. But I must remind myself and you might heed this as well...these are not normal times. We do what we must.
I always enjoy reading your posts. I can tell they are always well thought out and are well written. They are always very logical and reasonable.
wtb,
The post was so well prepared that it required no response. I carefully read and have been deeply saddened that in the absence of being able to voice our concerns in church at a business meeting as things should be done, that it was necessary to expose "congregational approval" thru means of an online petition. It is readily apparant that the strength of our leadership is extremely lacking in that they feel incapable of maintaining church affairs properly.
Sorry, I didn't finish my last post-
The other thing I was thinking was this:
We have again been hearing the refrain to "ignore" the posters who disagree- Can I just once more point out the irony of this?
Lindon,
Thank you for your comments about Mark 3:29. Coincidentally, earlier this week I debated my father on committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. We both lost!
Westtnbarrister,
I read and enjoy your posts, they are always full of valuable information.
Hope you will be able to share the deacon's name at a later time.
WTB,
I read your post as well (I always read yours). And I don't think we could have had a more timely reminder of some of the events leading up to where we are now.
lindon,
I am with you in your concerns. I have more thoughts on this, but I am having a very hard time articulating it in this post without saying some things I would be totally reemed for. I'll just stick to what I've already said for now, and that is that this sermon very much appears to be an attempt to control the congregation with fear and manipulation. There is no sense of openness or humility or "hey, clearly we have some issues... let's talk about it," or "I recognize many of you have concerns," or anything of that nature.
Wtn: "Thank you for your comments about Mark 3:29. Coincidentally, earlier this week I debated my father on committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. We both lost! "
Are you both lawyers? :o)
Isaiah 48:1
1 Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.
Bepatient
No we are withholding our tithes saving up to buy HorseSaddles from Harry Smith and Steve Tucker so we can jump the fence at Steve Gaines new horse riding farm in fayette County...Buts its ok because Steve Gaines said it was an "Itty Bitty fence and Harry was asked if the saddles were comfortable but he replied "I Don"t Know.." See ya at the new prayer chapel...Bring your pitchfork for the hay.....Unity at all Costs!
Proverbs 14:22
22 Do they not err that devise evil? But mercy and truth shall be to them that devise good.
JMO,
I notice you went quiet. Can't say I blame you. Even though I stronly believe Steve Gaines should resign, I find that the continued attitude and words here are detrimental to those who agree with us. I am sorry. You tried to bring some civility and help here and for that you have been attacked. I have seen this happen to more than you as I have lurked here.
Also, and I know what this will get me, I can't help but notice that the tone here changes dramatically from kindness to unpleasant with the addition of abuot three posters (two of whom don't even belong to Bellevue). That is just an observation.
I started out 100% agreeing with the situation at Bellevue, but now have been so turned off by the tone and sanctimonious attitude here that I am having serious doubts where I stand.
If we could have more measured discussion like WTB, AOG, JMO, and a few others have tried to demonstrate, I think this could be resolved, but with the addition of incendiary posts by people who, I agree, have been legitimately hurt by other churches' actions, it devolves into a less than healthy place.
I know the futility and the what the result will be to my feelings of this, but my suggestion would be scroll past those ladies' postings who do so much to stir controversy than mitigate it (we all know who they are). There is enough already legitimately.
soc, I hear ya. A red flag to look for in any church is how the doctrine of unity is taught.
You have big huge red flags here.
II Chronicles 18:15
15 And the king said to him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou say nothing but the truth to me in the name of the LORD?
Bepatent,
I don't think it is disagreement with which people take umbrage, rather hair-brained arguments. Y'all come to monologue, not dialogue.
The real irony is your outrage.
Jeremiah 7:28
28 But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.
11:50 PM, February 23, 2007
Lindon said...
Are you both lawyers? :o)
junk99mail replies ...
Hi, Lindon,
Hope you are doing well. If they were both lawyers, they'd both be claiming victory! :)
(smile, wtb)
Incidently, Psalm 43:3, thanks for the note about the Amazing Grace movie. I did want to hear from someone who has seen it to find out if it's worth the $8 or not, so thanks.
trollycakes,
Did I say I was outraged?
It can't be ironic if isn't true.
Lindon said...
Wtn: "Thank you for your comments about Mark 3:29. Coincidentally, earlier this week I debated my father on committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. We both lost! "
Are you both lawyers? :o)
No, we just enjoy friendly debate.
When I was young he made a point to continually teach me big ideas and principles. As I grew older we discussed them. These days we debate them.
I recently realized my father is doing the same thing with all of his grandchildren that he did with me. God blessed me with wise and godly parents.
"Now I urge you brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetities; and by their smooth and flattering speech they decieve the hearts of the unsuspecting." (Romans 16:17-18)
Mike:
In case you pop back in the morning to catch up...
I've got a fever. And the only prescription is... more cowbell!
socwork,
Since you are interested in Amazing Grace you might also enjoy John Piper's new short book on William Wilberforce. Lifeway has it, but you can download all of Piper's book for free from his website (www.desiringgod.org). I read half of it earlier today. It made me anxious to see the movie.
Deuteronomy 28:22
The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.
Thanks WTN, going to check it out right now! (Well, at least long enough to bookmark it and look at it tomorrow.)
Tim said...
Deuteronomy 28:22
The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.
Perhaps it's the hour, or the bacon double cheeseburger I had at Steak N Shake ("In Sight It Must Be Right"), but would you care to explain that one?
--Mike
tim,
is this a test to see if we really read Scriptures that are posted?
;)
It's the fever...
Tim!
You somehow managed to evoke very similar responsed from Mike
and Socwork!!
Exodus 28:34
a golden bell and a pomegranate, a golden bell and a pomegranate, upon the hem of the robe round about.
...and the bells.
Job 28:2
Iron is taken out of the earth, and brass is molten out of the stone.
And the irony of it all.
Don't forget the cows
Genesis 41:20
"The lean, ugly cows ate up the seven fat cows that came up first."
Mike ate the cow at Steak & Shake.
goodnight Tim :)
And goodnight to rest of you as well.
Good night guys!
What is the reference for that WTB?
1 Chronicles 26:18
At Parbar westward, four at the causeway, and two at Parbar.
David Brown wrote: "Now let me ask you a question. Are you suggesting that a "cured" pedophile would be ok in the ministry. I pray the answer is no."
David, why do you always have to throw into the conversation inflammatory remarks as above? I've consistency stated that PW should have been shown the door at the moment he confused to his sin. Sir, I understand the old adage of "have you quit beating you wife" scenario. The point being is that you use you questions to be to try to paint or label me as thinking/saying something that I did not think/say. That is not only a dishonorable act but very much an offensive way to converse.
May I say to you sir that if you are wanting to question another's integrity in a matter then you yourself should be beyond reproach. Your form of misleading dialog is not beyond reproach for any reasonable unbiased reader.
David Brown continued: "So if you want to keep up the attacks, go for it. I have broad shoulders and very thick skin."
If responding to your continued misstatements about me are what you consider attacks, then you'll need both. I personally think you sir try to bully me with your response. You've been very disrespectful to me with each continue posting. I will now choose to ignore your post and not allow our discussions with one another to continue.
JMO,
Thank you for saying that. You will take more grief, but it needed to be said. An old ploy that is used in politics to try to silence dissent and critics is to declare that you have no right to criticize because you haven't had my experience or been through what I have been through, etc, etc. It is a hollow argument used most often by the liberal leftist to silence others. IT is the same tactic used here. The fact that some on here have been through horrendous experiences does not give them the right to say or do some of the mean things they have perpetrated.
What I often think of when I see the way some on here attack is that if we were all sitting in a room together, that the dialogue would certainly be much different. At least I hope it would and I wish it would be so here.
padroc said...
Good Morning all you beautiful people.
“To the blog administrator,
Whether you actually followed any of my suggestions for running this blog as offered in an email to the first administrator or not, you did many of the things required to govern well this particular type of forum. I have copied everything for my reference.
sheepless said,
I'm confused, have we a new blog administrator, if so when?
Anyone know??
**Want a blessing anyone?? Check out savingbellevue.com **,
Keep Our Eyes on Our Savior "JESUS"
The message is in the horses, watch carefully at the end where a few of the older horses drop into the water and swim..there is a younger one that is not tall enough to walk on thru the water..then a couple behind him also drop into the water and swim. All the older horses are perfectly capable of making it thru without swimming but they are guiding the little guy. I'm not describing it well, but you'll get it when you watch.
What a great way to start this beautiful day God has given us, Rejoice and be glad in it!
"If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of ou Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain." 1 Timothy 6:3-5
Good morning resistors...I pray you have a good weekend in the Lord. Please remember to stay strong in the face of strife. Please stay alert and focused on those matters of importance to you and your church...and on Jesus. Do not fall prey to the vicious attacks coming at you...they can stir the kool-aide, but you don't have to drink it. Turn it away. Do not be a victim of their confusion and anxiety. You most likely have some rough days ahead of you. Prepare yourselves for it, stay strong in the Lord, and be ready for it.
I agree with others here...these sermon notes are very suspicious. They choose unity over truth.
I would continue to move on past those posts which are trying to cause dissention. Don't be a part of their plan. But...do pray for them.
Good Morning Ima!
sheepless wrote:
"I'm confused, have we a new blog administrator, if so when?"
Now, now, let's not start any rumors! NASS stays in a perpetual state of confusion but is still very much here. I think "padroc" was reposting something from another blog. S/he said...
"I am copy/pasting a post I made on another blog."
Apparently that blog had a new administrator.
JOY, JOY!!!
I just got a little "twitted up"
there for a minute.
Glad all is well..you can ignore my email.
Isaiah 8:9 - 10
Be shattered, O you peoples, and be broken in pieces!
Give ear, all you from far countries.
Gird yourselves, but be broken in pieces;
Gird yourselves, but be broken in pieces.
Take counsel toghether but it will come to nothing;
Speak the word, but it will not stand,
For God is with us.
GOD IS WITH HIS PEOPLE
ilovebbc said...
Just curious about why nobody ever wondered who paid for it when the Sorrells and Rogers went to South Korea and India years ago. I don't know who paid for those and I don't know who's paying for Donna's trip this summer but why do we question her trip when we didn't question the previous ones and all the other Bellevue mission trips occurring this year.
Why is Donna going alone? What is the purpose of this trip? Is this being paid out of the Missions Department? If I am not mistaken, Dr Rogers preached on these trips - is Donna preaching? Bob Sorrell was training pastors on the essentials of establishing the churches? Is Donna doing that too?
(amos breaks silence)
The following that is posted can be found on AOG's blog. AOG may occassionally invite someone to visit his blog, but he will not actively advertise or promote it; I do not have to explain the high character of this friend, for it has spoken for itself unto for quite a while; (he does not post things from his blog, I believe because he would not want to leave you with the impression that he is promoting self above his Lord) I have no agenda, other than this: that you be blessed by what God blessed another with. You may read something that contains wisdom today. You may read something that contains passion today. It is highly unlikely that you will read something for quite some time that has the high content of both that the following writing has. May God give you eyes to see and a tender heart as you read. May He break your heart anew and fill you with humility, for 'He resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble'
***********************************
From our first breath, we are wrapped up in iniquity. Nay, let us go further as always to the scripture; from our conception we are bound hand and foot to sin. Over the course of our life we will find it to be so. All of Adam’s race are sinners by nature and by choice. Look over the circle of this earth and you will find some more apt and willing to partake in evil deeds, some that have equal propensity and willingness yet are more constrained, and some that seem to have quite the mastery over their flesh. Yet underneath, they are all equally totally depraved.
Of these, it can be said, they are dead in trespasses and sin, they drink iniquity like water, they do not seek, understand, or love GOD; they are alienated from GOD by the darkness of their hearts and the ignorance of their minds; they are completely blind and deaf to spiritual things (the things of GOD); in them, there dwells no good (righteousness of their own) thing; and they are covered with putrefying wounds from head to toe.
Yet, ever so often, out of the Sovereign love and grace and goodness of GOD, because it alone has pleased Him to do so, because He has done all things after the counsel of His own will, and He has done all things well, He chooses to send forth the wind of His sovereign Spirit to blow into the dark recesses of the soul of one of these wretches whereby, they cry out, ABBA, FATHER.
The spiritually ignorant wretch who had no knowledge of GOD in his heart has his understanding opened whereby he sees a thrice holy GOD glaring at his naked sinful soul. For the first time, he sees himself as GOD has always seen him and fear melts him to the core of his being. He feels that he might die as Holiness gazes at his filthiness laid bare. He trembles as he waits for the mighty hand of judgement at once to come crashing down to destroy him. But he who has been brought to the place of mercy has found it.
And Lo, the hand that he thinks may crush shows him HE who is FAIREST AMONG TEN THOUSAND; THE ROSE OF SHARON now captures his gaze and He is altogether lovely. He weeps as he sees it was this LAMB who was wounded for his transgressions and bruised for his iniquities. Every stripe that he deserved this LAMB bore for him, and he can see that every sinful wound has been healed by Him. Every righteous demand of the law this LAMB lived, for him. He once despised even the mention of this Christ, now his heart can't begin to contain the love that he now has for him.
And what of this one whose understanding has been opened, whose affections have been turned Christ-ward? Is this just some mystical journey that they LORD has brought him on, all for nought? No indeed, for now, the unwilling has been made willing. Willing to walk some silly church aisle? Willing to sign some card? Willing to go through some 4 week new convert course? Heaven forbid! The soul that the LORD has truly saved is now willing to confess with his mouth what the LORD has done to his heart. HE HAS SAVED MY SOUL! Join a REAL new testament church...YES! Follow in the LORD’s baptism...YES! But above all, begin to live like a soul set free. Begin to tell the world around you about the SOVEREIGN, SAVING, GRACE OF GOD!!! BEGIN TO LIVE LIKE THE NEW CREATION THAT YOU ARE IN CHRIST!!!
Let me leave you with a few thoughts and a couple of questions.
-Dead sinners have to be brought to life sovereignly by GOD
-When GOD does this, He does this when He chooses and to whom He chooses
-No matter how hard you try, you can’t make Him save anyone!
-Did GOD save you in the way or in a way described above?
-If you didn't get saved in the way described above or in a similar way, then who saved you or just how did you get saved? “
Bro. Shadrack Jackson Daigrepont (Jake)
As many of us have expected. The count on the Combs petition is 179. Thats people who actually put a name on the list. Those names are not verified as actual members. The number is most likely smaller than 179. Lets step up and put your name folks. The second petition is at 28 named signers. Wow...thats a huge movement.
Pinker,
No. For all their wrongheaded, bumbling and, at times, sinful behavior it is different. The leadership has never said you can't disagree because you have not been through what I have been through or don't know what I have experienced. That is not the tactic they have used.
What some on here are doing is wrong in trying to intimidate (weakly, but nevertheless persistently) to silence critics by using this tactic. It is wrong. Though they often are right in many of their stands, they are not right in their methods. That is all I am saying.
Let love reign and let all speak without ad hominem attacks that are not warranted. Please leave the virulence outside this discussion.
It is said that a true statement is true without regard to the reliability or sagacity of the person who utters it. Please let the truth stand by your statement without the verbal baggage that distracts from the truth in the statement.
Saying it in caps or accompanied by bravado or even scripture doesn't make you right - not by Gaines, Coombs (in sermons on unity) or by certain individuals on this blog.
It just doesn't.
THANK YOU AMOS, THANK YOU AOG.
overflowinggrace said...
As many of us have expected. The count on the Combs petition is 179. Thats people who actually put a name on the list. Those names are not verified as actual members. The number is most likely smaller than 179. Lets step up and put your name folks. The second petition is at 28 named signers. Wow...thats a huge movement.
overflowing,
I understand that the leadership has made a "hit list" from the names on the petitions. I would assume that is why people are reluctant to use their names.
And good morning to you sheeplessatbbc! Hope this is proving to be a good day for you. It is raining here...good reading weather. :)
May we be happy in the Lord today. May the 'critic's' words be as water on a duck's back...not able to penetrate and cause confusion. May they not have the ability to rob us of our joy in the Lord!
Blessings...to all!
This gets more conspiratorial all the time. So, now the thousands that would have signed, didn't sign because the goon squad has a "hit list"?!!!
More evidence of the delusional conspiratorial machinations that continue to bring disrepute to us who truly want to see change happen. Please just stop it, please.
If it is worth it, then people should be willing to pay the price. It is either apathy or this is the sum total of the parts. Accept either, but don't bring in "UFO-type" conspiracies on why the results are as they are.
dear dear Aragon,
I DID sign my name and THEY DID make a list. If you do not believe me - go ask them (not that they will tell you the truth). There is no conspiracy theory here and I am tired of the "Clinton-style right wing conspiracy theory" being thrown in my face. If I do not know for a fact that it is truth, I do not post it. Some of my posts are posed as questions, but if you will go back and read them all and investigate the "theories" and the "questions" - everything will be proven as fact.
Think what you will, it will not change the truth.
faithintheditch wrote:
Bepatient
No we are withholding our tithes saving up to buy HorseSaddles from Harry Smith and Steve Tucker so we can jump the fence at Steve Gaines new horse riding farm in fayette County...Buts its ok because Steve Gaines said it was an "Itty Bitty fence and Harry was asked if the saddles were comfortable but he replied "I Don"t Know.." See ya at the new prayer chapel...Bring your pitchfork for the hay.....Unity at all Costs!
SOTL says:
I'M STILL LAUGHING!!!!
Is there any possibility in your mind that this is just it?
Gaines is an egotistical manipulator who didn't have enough spiritual backbone and courage to do the right thing in the face of a child rapist and needs to go.
But, it is embarrassing to see what gets said here and more damaging is the way it is said.
This petition "spin" reminds me the kooky Democrats who to this day claim that if they could have gotten just a few more of those hanging chads or if Kerry could have gotten 100,000 more votes then things would have been different.
Who told all those hundreds not to sign or they would get on this "hit list"? I didn't get the word and I signed the first one. The second one is just another embarrassing chapter in this sordid tale.
Faithintheditch, SOTl
Now that's funny right there, I don't care who you are that's funny!
Mom4,
Good morning to you. Want you to know that I have appreciated your posts for the duration of this blog. You take a strong stand for Jesus Christ...it is evident and I have such great respect for you in that.
I just wanted to say to you in 'listening' to this conversation that I found through my experience that there are probably many, many people who are in support of the resistors, but who will not take a stand or sign the petition simply because they are afraid to...they are intimidated and afraid. They are afraid they will find themselves in the same position as people they have seen mistreated and we all know who some of these people are. And they are right...if one takes a stand they are truly putting themselves in the line of fire. "Shooting the wolves" as Rick Warren's website alludes to it. So the bottom line is that the number of people in support of the resistors and are anti-PD/RW/CGM is most likely much, much greater than what it might appear. People are simply afraid of the power mongers. And yes, they do take names. It can get very nasty.
Stay stong in your stand. Stay strong for Jesus. :)
Just curious about why we don't wait to analyze/critique the sermon "after" it's been delivered.
Oh, this one's easy!
1. It hasn't been delivered yet.
2. We have it now. Why wait?
imaresistor said...
WTB...
Just wanted to say that I appreciate your feelings on posting. Though you might not think so in reading my posts, I am always very hesitant to post. But I must remind myself and you might heed this as well...these are not normal times. We do what we must.
Ima,
I agree these times are not normal. The church, in a universal sense, is in trouble. I told some friends a few months ago that if something doesn't change, I believe the church in America is headed toward a new dark ages. Apostasy and heresy are fast becoming the norm. We are further from biblical standards than at any time since the Reformation.
My comments about posting were not aimed at anyone in particular. There is nothing unbiblical about disagreement, even within the church. We should strive for unity, but we are naive to expect unanimity.
However, some must work on the art of disagreeing without being disagreeable. We do that by not personalizing everything. By respecting the personhood of those who see matters differently. BY remaining civil even when we are tempted to lash out. Dealing with principles and not personalities would go a long way toward elevating the debate.
The "anonymous" names on the petition are only anonymous to web readers... actual names are on the petition. So you can bump that number up to whereever it ended - between 350 and 400 signatures.
ilovebbc said
Just curious about why nobody ever wondered who paid for it when the Sorrells and Rogers went to South Korea and India years ago. I don't know who paid for those and I don't know who's paying for Donna's trip this summer but why do we question her trip when we didn't question the previous ones and all the other Bellevue mission trips occurring this year.
Piglet says:
I imagine it is because Dr. Rogers made such a smaller salary than Steve Gaines and turned down pay raises. Maybe because we were not in the habit of assisting liberal or apostate churches financially under Dr. Rogers. The chief financial officer did not quit under Dr. Rogers because of numerous improprieties. I think some flags have gone up that just weren't there before.
Where there is smoke, there is fire.
MOM4 said...
dear dear Aragon,
I DID sign my name and THEY DID make a list.
Sheepless says..
Well there you have it folks. Our tithe dollars at work again..The Lord's work..I don't think so.
Wonder if they are paying overtime for the blog inspectors??
I signed my name too and left comments also. I don't think we should fault some who were unable to post their names due to the security of their positions or their jobs..it is not time to reveal all..In God's time it will be revealed.
Peace and courage to all.
I may be getting my letter anyday.."I've been moved"??
Ima,
Thank you so much for your words of encouragement. There are those who do not like the blog and the bloggers who post here - it is an outlet for us - no one in the "power brokers group" will listen to any one and none will answer questions. It is coming to a point where God will have to deal with them as he did in the times of Noah - they are spinning their own demise.
I know facts and I have been trying to share them. There are people investigating that are being stonewalled by the leadership. I know that money is flowing out of the church - I know that Steve Gaines has openly shunned Dr Rogers and is trying to remove his very memory from the church he loved for 30 years. He has run off Mrs Rogers and her family - she rarely attends and quietly seats herself in the back of the back of the balcony on most days. Her daughter and family attends GBC. Mrs Joyce has no respect and had to call a secular radio program to clear an attack on dead her husbands legacy by STEVE GAINES. They would NOT let her address the congregation and I am thinking that she feels that she has no support to do so because the MEN who supposedly stood by Dr Rogers have scurried into the woodwork or have bowed at the feet of Steve Gaines.
I recently was at LWF (giving my tithe) and saw a picture of the final celebration for Dr Rogers' retirement service. There was Dr and Mrs Rogers, and they were surrounded my men who came to the front to lay hands on them in prayer. I was sickened when I saw some of the faces. Steve Tucker, Mark Dougharty, Harry Smith, Chuck Taylor and others. These men were laying in wait for Dr Rogers to leave - may God have mercy on them for what they have done.
I have been careful to not judge anybody's intentions and I don't have anything to for which to apologie. The ad hominem attacks are self-evident and have nothing to do with intentions. Surely, you won't deny that at times (too many, I believe) can be characterized as such. Why should I apologize for stating the obvious and asking just for more winsome discussion-not less passionate
If you can elucidate that for me I will promptly acquiesce.
aragorn said
This gets more conspiratorial all the time. So, now the thousands that would have signed, didn't sign because the goon squad has a "hit list"?!!!
More evidence of the delusional conspiratorial machinations that continue to bring disrepute to us who truly want to see change happen. Please just stop it, please.
If it is worth it, then people should be willing to pay the price. It is either apathy or this is the sum total of the parts. Accept either, but don't bring in "UFO-type" conspiracies on why the results are as they are.
Piglet says:
Look, you come off a little self-righteous. Are you here to be the referee since all the "little children" can't get along? Criticizing our posts, even David Brown for protecting those who were not protected by our church?
And what's this about "theories"?
You don't think they are "taking names"? You are niave.
This past Wednesday I was sitting in a chair by the entrance to the sanctuary waiting for my husband. Three official looking fellaslooked in the door and said "He usually sits back here somewhere." I was sitting right under their noses so I suppose they didn't recognize me.
My husband met me and we went into the service 15 minutes late. Immedieately after we sat down, one of these men sat at the end of our row.
I don't know what they think we are going to do that we have to be watched. I just want to hear the word from Bro. Joe because we often go home after BFC and watch Dr. Rogers on TV.
This is the first time I believed we were being "watched". My husband had said a man was staring at us during the Wed. sevice a week before EVERY time he looked back over his shoulder but I assumed he must be paranoid. This is where we are, ladies and gentlemen.
Aragorn, don't be so smug. :/
Mom 4,
This is all too heartbreaking to think how the Rogers family is being mistreated.
Every Sunday I check in the Hall of Fame of our most recent great pastors, in anticipatory FEAR that yet another portrait might be added.
All of the men and women who are not following God's will in all matters of our church family will have a "Pay Day, Some Day" as Dr Lee so aptly put it.
Lord Jesus, keep your watchful eye on us and protect all your children from evil.
I am sorry for sounding "smug". I don't want to and am not smug and I am sorry for sounding that way. I know that perception can be reality too often.
And please understand that I am not saying that anyone should not defend those who have been victimized in the past and again because of the wrongheadedness and outright arrogance at times of those in leadership. His continued pattern of behavior he engages in with impunity is sickening to me.
I am saying that the defense that is advanced can be and should be less intemperate. That's all
I truly believe SG should go and yesterday would not have been too soon, Heck, 8 months ago would not have been too soon. I just want all of the posters here to take on more of the cloak of meekness. Jesus exhibited that we can be passionate, bold and forceful without being snarky and demeaning to a brother or sister.
Piglet,
Why don't you play musical chairs with those guys a few times..let them know you are on-to-them.
Always move behind them so they will have to move too in order to "observe" you.
They just won't even let us worship in peace on Wed nites, huh?
Pinker Socks,
I know you said that you wouldn't read this, but maybe someone else will and pass it on. I am sorry and ask you to forgive me. I never said you were hateful. I haven't sensed hatefulnes by anyone on this blog since Ace left.
I still think that there is too many times an attitude that is damaging to the family of Jesus. Please understand that is all I am saying. I hafe lived for almost 5 decades now and in that time I have seen how often others get hurt by my words and the words of others. I just don't want to see that continue.
If anyone else reads this, will you please tell Pinker that I am sorry for what I must have said that led her to believe I thought she exhibited hatefulness.
Long live passion! For justice, holiness and most of all Jesus!
aragorn said
truly believe SG should go and yesterday would not have been too soon, Heck, 8 months ago would not have been too soon. I just want all of the posters here to take on more of the cloak of meekness. Jesus exhibited that we can be passionate, bold and forceful without being snarky and demeaning to a brother or sister.
Piglet says:
Fair enough. Point taken.
However, we must remember that Jesus became loud and physical when he saw the Lords house being used for personal gain by hypocritical religious leaders.
Hence my earler post:
The cases you refer to are the victims of past abuse who lash out in anger because they have suffered so much and now are being victimized by their own church.
In other cases,I believe many are
at the end of their patience. I know I am one, as you can see from my post above.
There is obvious documented ONGOING and UNREPENTED sin in our leaders. Yet, the sermons and BFC lessons teach on the evil satanic influence over those speaking out. How ironic.
What are our crimes?
A website, because we were denied meetings and could not secure a list or meeting place to inform our own members.
Petitions, because the members who are informed want a VOICE.
How evil we are.
Our crime is speaking out? Maybe too harshly?
And where are all the "hearsay, rumors,gossip, and half-truths"?
Righteous anger is certainly in order here.I refuse to be shamed by a pastor and leadership who have broken the law FOUR times in the past eighteen months.
IF JESUS WERE HERE HE WOULD BE TURNING OVER TABLES, AND CALLING THEM A GENERATION OF VIPERS AND WHITED SEPULCHRES.
Save your scolding.
**************
I'm not sure that meekness is always fitting. The Lord was not meek on the day in the temple. Perhaps we as a church are being far too meek in our response to all of this foolishness.
JMO
There were a few request to extend the time on the petition until Sunday so that there would be an opportunity for others to let there voice be heard.
Ordination Petition
Please take a moment and sign if you have not already.
"Congregationally Approved" is supposed to be the final step in our church governance and it is important to let your voice be heard.
sheepless said
Why don't you play musical chairs with those guys a few times..let them know you are on-to-them.
Always move behind them so they will have to move too in order to "observe" you.
Piglet says:
LOL! That's funny. Maybe we should do that.
One of the many reasons to rush to "ordination"??
Interesting reading..you can google, IRS minister housing allowance
Minister Housing Allowance Presents New Challenges
By Paul G. Schloemer and Ryan Wilson
DECEMBER 2005 - For over 50 years, ministers have enjoyed the benefits of tax-free housing. IRC section 107 permits qualified ministers to exclude housing-related compensation from gross income to the extent it relates to service performed in their ministry.
[The term “minister” as used herein refers to people holding various titles in a variety of religious organizations. A “minister of the gospel” as defined below, meets specific criteria defined in Treasury Regulations sections 1.107-1(a) and 1.1402(c)-5.] This benefit has recently come under scrutiny due to heightened concern about the separation of religious organizations and government, and because of perceived abuses of this privilege.
Is there any wonder we have so many ministers and ordained ministers.
Piglet,
Again, if I sounded like scolding, then please forgive me. I obviously am unable to communicate effectively. I was NOT scolding. That would be wrong of me. I have no right or reason to scold another brother or sister. I have not and would not.
I agree with your Temple analogy. I believe that Jesus had had enough that day, too and made his point. I wish I could have seen those jaws dropped. Have you ever noticed that it says that he sat down and braided his whip before he got started. He actually took the time to collect his "wits" and then deliberately set forth in a violent manner. That is Jesus in all his holiness, I believer that and I believe that is what is needed for the church today. And I believe that many on here are seeking that.
Also, I always believed meekness is exactly what Jesus exhibited that day. Meekness isn't weakness or mildness - it is power under control. The church needs more not less of that today.
Again, please forgive me for sounding scolding. I really didn't mean to sound that way, but to ask and try to bring some reflection to the fact maybe we all could be set and "braid our whips" before we type those words
I have only posted once or twice before until yesterday. Obviously, I am only continue to add to the problems, so I think I will give up blogging for Lent.
In the infamous words of Richard Nixon, "You won't have me to kick around anymore." :))
Piglet...said, "This is the first time I believed we were being "watched". My husband had said a man was staring at us during the Wed. sevice a week before EVERY time he looked back over his shoulder but I assumed he must be paranoid. This is where we are, ladies and gentlemen."
Piglet...My husband and I started noticing people were watching us too. I realized later that this was a result of the slander, lies, gossip, etc. that had been started on us. We had become the 'freaks'. We had become the focus of an impending attack. So...no, you are not imagining things. Others will probably start noticing the same thing if they haven't already. It reached a point that I became very uncomfortable because I could 'feel' people looking at me. It is quite unnerving. The end results were disasterous. You are right...this IS where you are. We are praying for all of you.
Psalms 60:4
4 Thou hast given a banner to them that fear thee, that it may be displayed because of the truth. Selah.
aragorn
Notice that was a repost and I was not fussing at you again. :)
"Braiding our whips" is a good analogy to keep in mind. We certainly don't need to fly off the handle becasue of our emotions. All in God's timing.
Pinker Socks,
Aragorn says he is sorry, read his post 11:22.
We're all a little on edge, the "battle is raging".
The sermon notes for the ordiantion service can no longer be pulled up by the link. They were there earlier this morning so there must be some reason that they have been removed.
Hmm....
No surprise there... it seems to be typical for many things that are posted lately...
So, it pays to learn how to "copy and paste" and "save as," doesn't it?
petition signer #342 practices Scientology I believe.....
Tim said...
The sermon notes for the ordiantion service can no longer be pulled up by the link. They were there earlier this morning so there must be some reason that they have been removed.
Hmm....
12:12 PM, February 24, 2007
Why can't they just "provide all things honest before all men?
Why hide things?
Sermon notes for tomorrow night:
“When the Spirit Comes”
Acts 2:1-13
February 25, 2007 – PM Service
1. The Spirit is attracted to unity (Acts 2:1).
A. Unity brings the blessing of anointing. Psalm 133:1-3
B. Unity provides a witness to the lost. John 13:34-35
C. Disunity is a sign of spiritual immaturity. 1 Corinthians 1:10-13; 3:1-7; Jude 1:16-19
D. Unity is to be a primary goal of Christians. Ephesians 4:3
E. Christians should turn away from divisive people. Titus 3:10-11
2. The Spirit is attested in power (Acts 2:2-4).
A. A powerful wind. John 3:8
B. A purifying fire. Luke 3:16
C. A persuasive voice.
(1) Persuasive witnessing. Acts 1:8
(2) Persuasive preaching. Romans 15:18-19
(3) Persuasive praying. Ephesians 6:18
3. The Spirit is amazing in results (Acts 2:5-12).
Acts 2:43; 3:9-11; 4:13; 8:13; 9:20-21; 10:45; 12:16-17; 13:12; Ephesians 3:20-21
4. The Spirit is attacked with persecution (Acts 2:13).
A. Attacking the Holy Spirit is dangerous. Mark 3:22-29
B. Attacking the Holy Spirit is rebellious. Acts 7:51
C. Attacking the Holy Spirit is carnal. Romans 8:5-8
D. Attacking the Holy Spirit is indicting. 1 Corinthians 2:14
#232's middle name might be Axl?
I am surprised he is not waiting for the day he can go home to "paradise city"
THIS is a comment from the petition:
"There has NEVER been a Southern Baptist preacher who has consistently brought strife and division to the churches he has pastored. Only Steve Gaines has accomplished this spiritual darkness. Now he is promoting the ordination of a secular business man. Why is this important to Steve Gaines? Could it be that without spiritual discernemnt, David Coombs will allow Steve Gaines to proceed as he always has. Stop Steve Gaines NOW!"
I wonder if any of Steve Gaines' supporters has ever thought to search out his "history" with his previous churches. I have done a little research from friends and family, both in Jackson and Gardendale, and I have found much of the same - money issues, bully tactics, lies, deceipt, division, strife and he leaves under circumstances that are "cloudy" at best, even owing money to Gardendale (not a small amount either!).
One item that came up that I am looking into is an event that resulted in his rapid departure under pressure from W Jackson - it has connections to activities similar to something we have had at Bellevue. Could someone, anyone elaborate?
# 184.
Uh, I don't really know what to say about this one. Just read it (quietly) to yourself out loud and then read the comments again.
just returned from a nice rest out of town and we visited some wonderful Churches.
Trying to catch up on the latest at Bellevue or what's left of it. What happened to the heros of the faith...Mark Sharpe, Richard Emerson and Josh Manning?
What happened to the meetings that were taking place that encouraged us? Is anyone every going to creat some type of fourm on or off capmus? Moses spoke to the people when he came down off the mountain. I doubt there is anyone in leadership that has the gifts or skills to speak like Emerson , Sharpe or Manning.
Is there any talk from Mark D. about a church wide meeting?
Wtn: When I was young he made a point to continually teach me big ideas and principles. As I grew older we discussed them. These days we debate them.
I recently realized my father is doing the same thing with all of his grandchildren that he did with me. God blessed me with wise and godly parents."
He sure did! This is a great method to teach children not to be easily influenced by what others (especially their peers) are saying. But to stand on principles.
I agree with bepatient - #184 needs to be removed (I thought that was a weird name!).
Petition Police!!!!
Who speaks for Bellevue now is it David C. or Mark D. ? I plan on calling one or both of these men next week and request a church wide meeting.
I know we can quench the Spirit and grieve the Spirit...but "attack" the Spirit?...what translation is that in?..or is that in the book of Speculations...perhaps Hesitations?
Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
How nice it would be to meet all of y'all (even you, Bratton). And not at BBC where conversation is limited. Unfortunately, the only places that come to my mind are dives that serve (eek!) alcohol like the P&H (but billiards is not a sin if'n I don't bet) and a place like (eek!) First Congregational.
I hope IDC finds a suitable location for a gathering. I think you guys should make a documented statement of purpose specifically from what you dissent and where you must part ways with the present momentum of social and political upheaval.
Y'all need the solidarity of one another no matter how this battle plays out.
tim, you have email.
Cakes,
We know someone that owns some land off 196 in Fayette Co.
Ya think, they'd let us pitch a tent there and have us a big ole time tent meetn'? Would ya come?
With bells on.
Leaders & Spies,
Read petition post 391..how does that make you feel?
I'm goin to Gus's and get some fried chicken..if you wanna know who this resistor is...Ya'll come on over now.
Journalists say that in the newspaper business, unfortunately, it pays to have a dirty mind. Check out #127 on the petition....I'm surprised no one has caught it before now.
Petition Police!!!
Good job, goodproofer!
My friend printed the outline for tomorrow night's message and studied it out. He said that all the references to "Unity" need to be replaced with "Obedience to God" and the references to "disunity" replaced with "disboedience". Another message it will be difficult to sit through.
overflowinggrace said...
"As many of us have expected. The count on the Combs petition is 179. Thats people who actually put a name on the list. Those names are not verified as actual members. The number is most likely smaller than 179. Lets step up and put your name folks. The second petition is at 28 named signers. Wow...thats a huge movement."
9:31 AM, February 24, 2007
________________
socwork said...
The "anonymous" names on the petition are only anonymous to web readers... actual names are on the petition. So you can bump that number up to whereever it ended - between 350 and 400 signatures.
10:50 AM, February 24, 2007
_______________
25+ says:
overflowingrace,
Your taunting comments really help restore unity to the body. The 350-400 mentioned by Socwork are about 10% of the members who have left, are leaving, or are holding their tithes until...
You and "Bepatient" are the best allies that IDC could have.
Members of a majority taunting a minority--really brave and really good strategy. Growing minority BTW...
Even if there were "two or more" signitures on that list, that alone should have put the brakes on the ordination. The church is not in one accord. It is not time to steam roll any members.
all imo
I wonder if the ordination has been postponed or cancelled since the notes have been removed from the BBC website?
As far as mission trips go, I know first hand - everyone who goes on a mission trip pays their own way, either personally or by raising funds. The exceptions are staff members and lay leaders and their spouses.
Psalm 43:3 said...
I wonder if the ordination has been postponed or cancelled since the notes have been removed from the BBC website?
2:47 PM, February 24, 2007
_______________
25+ says:
Good question Psalm 43:3...
How could any ordination council not have reservations about laying hands on a candidate when opposed by so many church members?
How could they lay hands on him in good conscience without allowing all of the objections to be dealt with fully?
Will those who lay hands on him actually be ministers that he has authority over?
If so, will they be able to be objective?
Will they be intimidated into falling in line with their "rubber stamp"?
God give us ministers with the courage of conviction!
Ask questions!!
Move to table the ordination rather than vote after he is questioned.
If the vote is not unanimous, then do not participate in the laying on of hands.
Pray for strength to do the right thing.
imo
I am not taunting anyone. Perhaps it would be best if we stopped assuming what the motives of others are.
Also, as I have pointed out before- you can't have it both ways... either the numbers matter or they don't. I would think accuracy would be desired over numbers.
Good question Ps43:3; I hope this means the ordination is at the very least, postponed. To steamroll ahead with the ordination tomorrow night seems like a slap in the face to a great deal of church members who have genuine concerns.
psalm 43:3,
It is my belief that the service will proceed as originally planned. There has been no indication that the plans are to do otherwise. The sermon notes were probably removed because they appear to be extremely volatile and divisive in and of themself.
By the way,
I am the same Tim Coggins that requested the membership list and some specific financial information from the church.
Quote from the Communication Committee:
"Why did Bellevue give $25,000 to the First United Methodist Church of Memphis?
In a meeting with the Finance Committee, Dr. Gaines noted that a church in the community had recently burned and requested the committee consider, at their discretion, if Bellevue could help them in some way. The Finance Committee voted to make a donation. The gift was a gesture to show the community that Bellevue cares about a church that was having a difficult time.
This gift was made in the same spirit as in 1998 when Bellevue sent supplies to the victims of hurricane Mitch in Honduras, sent money to Tsunami victims in December 2004, or when Bellevue opened its facilities to the victims of Katrina last year. Bellevue has helped Catholics in Honduras, Muslims in Indonesia, Buddhist in Thailand and Hindus in India."
The financial information that I requested was very specific to the funds distributed by the missions committee. It was requested because of the above statement. It was my desire to know if in addition to apostate churches if we were also giving to Catholics, Muslims, Buddhist (sorry Trollcakes) and Hindu causes. I also wanted to know if there were not more appropriate alternatives.
The official response that was received from the church in a nut shell said that it was none of my business. They had distributed money where they had chose and would continue to do so without the review or knowledge of anyone other than the committee members.
There was one person (Wayne Vandersteeg) that took responsibility for the mistake of sending money to this apostate church. However, he did not authorize, approve or deliver the check. Those that did were fully aware of what they were doing and to date have not answered for this action.
I forgot to add. The simple request that I made caused the church also to issue a statement to the entire church body about how open and transparent they were. They also made a point of trying to villify me in the process by pointing out how horrific it was that I should even want to know such information.
Bepatient said...
I am not taunting anyone. Perhaps it would be best if we stopped assuming what the motives of others are.
3:05 PM, February 24, 2007
___________
25+ says:
Bepatient,
I have looked over your comments for a month or two and I stand corrected. I am sorry. You are more bland in your comments. I should have lumped "Just My Opinion" with "Overflowingrace."
You have occasionally supplied the board with information as well. Perhaps you are "required" to be here by the leadership. Whatever your motives are, you seem to be here all the time. Would you like to explain to us your motives for being here throughout the day and into the early morning?
Is the motive passion for your own convictions?
Are you on staff and required to be here?
Most posters are here because they love BBC and don't have any other forum for communication--since Mt. 18 has been denied and the Communications Committee has "finished" the work assigned to them.
My motive for being here is love for BBC and some friends who have been trampled during this mess.
Good point... I don't want to assume. You do seem to lack the passion that some of the Pro-Gaines posters have. What is(are) your motive(s) for being here?
jmo
(amos breaks silence)
this is written specifically to no individual or ‘side’, generally to those who name themselves to be one of God’s people; those who, (were it not for the intervention of a gracious God in saving your soul) would be lost and without hope; I write nothing flippantly, and only hope that something written may be of benefit or encouragement to another
***********************************
It is of a certainty that the lives of God’s children will be laced with times of testing and trial. It not uncommon that we experience seasons of both refreshing and mourning. Often it may seem that our times of turmoil outweigh our times of peace. This is a common experience of the children of God, those scattered all over the circle of this earth, those dear ones who were once ‘by nature children of wrath’, but have since been 'delivered from the power of darkness, and brought into the kingdom of his dear Son’.
The kingdom of darkness directs what seems to be an unending and unchecked assault upon God’s people, and to the natural eye it appears that justice will not be done and that our anguish is unnoticed. This kingdom appears to have free reign and can make sport of those whom ‘the Lamb of Glory’ (with His own blood) ransomed and purchased, and from a superficial view, one might deduce that this kingdom and its prince can do so at their own volition. But be of good courage O’ saint of the Most High: do not lament so long when violence is done against the Kingdom of God and its citizens. The Lord has told us that these things shall come to pass. Do not think for one moment that the advancement of His kingdom will cease or will be impeded, and have confidence that the decree and purposes of our Lord will be realized and shall come to pass, and they shall do so for the Glory of God and the good of His people and will most certainly come to pass in the time and season that is pleasing to Him, though we may not see these things clearly now. And take heart, for the raging seas of evil and the tides of oppression and violence against God’s own can ONLY go as far as the shores of God’s sovereign allowance.
He is not some archaic, cosmic, impotent bystander, helplessly watching and hoping for resolutions that never come to pass. He is not some effeminate deity, weeping and brokenhearted over the deeds and wicked behavior of those whom He has created. 'Known are all His works from the beginning', for 'He has declared the end from the beginning'. God isn’t ‘trying’ to do anything. He does all that He purposes to do, every time, without fail, in the heavens and in the earth. If it were any other way, then He would cease to be God. God is not taken off guard or by surprise. He is not as us, and neither are His ways or thoughts as ours.
This generation is not the first nor will it be the last to see an increase in the fruits that spring from hearts of corruption and darkness. The gospels and the epistles have been so sifted through by modern religion as to leave the marginal ‘christian’ in utter shock as to the unfolding of wickedness in our age. May you rest assured though, that in a time that pleases the Lord, He will end this age, and He will indeed return and gather His sheep unto Himself, and then shall we forever be with the Lord. And in righteousness and holiness, He will judge the kingdom of darkness and its prince.
My earnest hope is that in times such as these, that the Lord would be pleased to raise up Christ honoring heralds; Godly men who seek no honor or reputation for themselves, men who would gladly deny themselves the temporal things of this world, men who would give up all to be able to preach the gospel of Christ, rather than do it for this world’s gold, making merchandise of the gospel; men of meekness and humility who would serve the least(in this world’s eyes) of His sheep; men of wisdom and courage, those who will rightfully divide the word of truth without fear of reprisal; men of integrity, who seek to honor Him who is Truth, who desire the smile and approval of Christ above the praises of men; men of allegiance, not unto man, but those who will commit themselves solely to exalting the name of Christ and the proclamation of His gospel, according to the Holy Writ itself, and not the promotion of self, any individual church, or denomination(he who is faithful in exalting Christ will find it unnecessary).
May the Lord who is faithful in all things, be pleased to give more and more grace unto His children, and may they find that He (of a certainty) blesses those who diligently seek Him. May the Lord have mercy on the weak and wounded, and may he bind up their wounds. May He strengthen those who grow weary and give them rest, and may He turn back to Himself those who have grown weary of doing good. May He daily conform them to image of His blessed Son, may He cause them to be faithful to keep His commandments, and may they graciously show love one for another, whereby this world may know they are His.
Blessings
Amos
"It was my desire to know if in addition to apostate churches if we were also giving to Catholics, Muslims, Buddhist (sorry Trollcakes) and Hindu causes..."
No offense taken--as a body, you have a right to live by your own articles of faith, so your scrutiny in this matter is fine with me.
I would limit your litany of offenses to those most egregious--i.e. the Williams travesty and the PCIR coverup, as the basis of your criticism, otherwise your resolution will be dilluted in the undertow of bottomless rationales and nit-picking.
The case for both Padre and Rev. CEO forfeit of credibilty are, quite simply, explicable solely in their own words and admitted actions (or inactions).
Stop trying to build a case with glasses of wine and charity donations when they have indicted themselves.
This is not to say that these issues should not be important to you; only to preempt any stagemanaged effort to whittle your credibility before the sheep. Padre's incuriosity regarding the pedophile and the corrupt report are beyond explanation or justification, without the typical resorting to hyperbole or sanctimony.
With love,
Cakes
How could any ordination council not have reservations about laying hands on a candidate when opposed by so many church members?
How could they lay hands on him in good conscience without allowing all of the objections to be dealt with fully?
Will those who lay hands on him actually be ministers that he has authority over?
If so, will they be able to be objective?
Will they be intimidated into falling in line with their "rubber stamp"?
God give us ministers with the courage of conviction!
Ask questions!!
Move to table the ordination rather than vote after he is questioned.
If the vote is not unanimous, then do not participate in the laying on of hands.
Pray for strength to do the right thing.
imo
25+,
What makes you think there will be any vote? There was no vote on October 22nd when they announced they'd formed a whole new high level position ("Administrative Pastor") and that they'd hired David Coombs to fill it. Think that was just an oversight on someone's part? Yeah, that's probably all it was... just a simple oversight. Bellevue is, after all, "congregationally approved," right? Sure it is. Ha ha ha ha!
NASS,
After a candidate is examined by an ordination committee, the candidate is asked to leave the room. The council then considers whether to proceed--they vote.
I was writing for any of the council who might read this board.
padroc said...
My next choice was "Maybe Just Maybe" and that's someone.
Thanks, Padroc ...
mjm
25+ says (in part):
Bepatient,
Perhaps you are "required" to be here by the leadership. Whatever your motives are, you seem to be here all the time. Would you like to explain to us your motives for being here throughout the day and into the early morning?
Is the motive passion for your own convictions?
Are you on staff and required to be here?
Most posters are here because they love BBC ... (yes, I realize you said more, but I stopped it here on purpose ...
25+, except for the occasional interlopers and distractors, do you think it would be a stretch to say most posters, regardless of their "side," really ARE here because they love BBC?
Why call BePatient out for being here "all the time" when others are, as well? I've seen posts from you and many, many others made at all hours, yet I think nothing of it. I personally post a lot in the wee hours of the morning, but I post throughout the day and evening, as well.
I can't (and don't) speak for BePatient or anyone else, but I can assure you I am not "required" to be here by anyone. Once again, why must there be some nefarious motive to post from any position? I daresay there is probably more commonality in our motivation to be here and participate than many may realize. I also believe personally that it has a lot more to do with our human nature than with "who started what." JMO
Maybe...,
Bepatient said I should not assume, so I asked. I asked Bepatient. If it is that simple, fine. I am sure that he/she will eventually answer.
Thanks for your concern.
Take a break and tell me what the weather is like in your area? It looks rough here in North Mississippi.
Trollcakes said...
Stop trying to build a case with glasses of wine and charity donations when they have indicted themselves.
Sweet Cakes,
Since I started the whole "glass of wine" issue the other day, I'll address this ... you are so brilliant and keen with a point. How did you miss mine? I couldn't care less (honestly) whether DC purchased one glass of wine or an entire winery. The issue was that of misrepresentation, misstating truth and thereby painting an inaccurate word picture for those who stumble upon the current discourse without history. The "great wine debate" then got off to a roaring trot and took on a life of its own, as well, and my point was completely lost and never revisited, nor was there ever a retraction of the overexaggeration that prompted me to make the post in the first place.
GRACIOUS!
My argument was never intended to diminish the seriousness of the PW debacle or the egregiousness of his crime against his son, nor to distract anyone from keeping "the main thing the main thing." It was merely a call for accountability and accuracy -- and I am more than dismayed that apparently nobody even "got it."
Oh well ... cheers, Cakes. Have a nice evening over there in Midtown.
Amos,
Thank you for your 4:00 p.m. post.
Not to be crass, but if I took an airline barf bag to services tomorrow, would that be disruptive to other worshipers?
I want to be there, but it will be difficult.
Let's get back to Donna Gaines mission trip.
Who approves Bellevue paying for the cost of her speaking trip to Africa?
Please show me where it is written in our bylaws or policies and the date if it is indeed written on any document.
This is the real problem, BBC makes up the rules as we go and then calls it policy..
iwant2know, do you think this is a "new" policy, arising since SG became our pastor?
Will the Marching band or any banners be brought in for the celebration?
Don't forget about the balloons or the confetti that we usually release from the ceiling after our big productions at Bellevue!
Who decides who we will ordain?
maybejustmaybe said...
iwant2know, do you think this is a "new" policy, arising since SG became our pastor?
5:06 PM, February 24, 2007
MJO,
I would just like you to answer my question!
Please show me where it is written in our bylaws or policies and the date if it is indeed written on any document.
Sorry, iw2k, but this sounded like you were drawing a conclusion:
This is the real problem, BBC makes up the rules as we go and then calls it policy..
Staff spouses have been going on paid trips overseas for years. Perhaps 25+ or JMO can answer this question since they've been around for a while.
But even though I can't answer your question, can you answer mine?
iwant2know said...
maybejustmaybe said...
iwant2know, do you think this is a "new" policy, arising since SG became our pastor?
5:06 PM, February 24, 2007
MJM,
I really couldn't answer your question since I haven't read it in the bylaws or rweadit in any dated policy.
With that, I don't think neither one of us are in a position to answer your question yet.
If you will help me uncover where this matter is in a dated written format, we will have our answer.
Please help me are we will find the truth.
How could any ordination council not have reservations about laying hands on a candidate when opposed by so many church members?
How could they lay hands on him in good conscience without allowing all of the objections to be dealt with fully?
Will those who lay hands on him actually be ministers that he has authority over?
If so, will they be able to be objective?
Will they be intimidated into falling in line with their "rubber stamp"?
God give us ministers with the courage of conviction!
Ask questions!!
Move to table the ordination rather than vote after he is questioned.
[Sample motion: Since there are matters that have not been dealt with with regard to this candidate for ordination that are causing division in the body at BBC, I move to table this ordination until these matters are fully dealt with and BBC is in one accord. At that time let us reconvene as a council and consider this candidate for ordination].
If the vote is not unanimous, then do not participate in the laying on of hands.
Pray for strength to do the right thing.
imo
"iwant2know, do you think this is a "new" policy, arising since SG became our pastor?"
The point you are making is moot, since the situation on the ground is not business as usual, rather unusual.
The whole ordination debate really ticked me off the other day--with humph-harumphers insisting many folks have been through ordaination without seminary training. The 40 million dollar question is: did any of them also do so on the heels of captaining a swiss cheese investigation?
Please, if you support Rev. CEO's ordination, then defend the PCIR with some credibilty. I double dog dare you (but don't get your tongue stuck on the flag pole).
Okay here we go...
Bepatient,
I have looked over your comments for a month or two and I stand corrected. I am sorry. You are more bland in your comments. I should have lumped "Just My Opinion" with "Overflowingrace."
gosh, thanks. Bland is better than most things I get accused of.
You have occasionally supplied the board with information as well. Perhaps you are "required" to be here by the leadership.
I try to correct or inform if I have information. I don't have any special access, just what I know from having gone to BBC for a long time.
Whatever your motives are, you seem to be here all the time. Would you like to explain to us your motives for being here throughout the day and into the early morning?
My motives for that are... I like to stay up late, you will probably never catch me here at 7am. I am a fast reader, I catch up sporadically throughout the day and sometimes I have a few minutes to post and sometimes I don't. My only real free time is late at night.
Personally, I don't see what it matters what time I am here.
Is the motive passion for your own convictions?
yes, I think we are at a crossroads and we have a great opportunity to change some things in our church that have been ignored in the past, or just overlooked. I am afraid that chance might be lost by those who sometimes get too petty or angry or those who go too far or are unwilling to forgive. More will be accomplished with kindness and respectful actions than yelling and complaining.
Are you on staff and required to be here? no.
Most posters are here because they love BBC and don't have any other forum for communication--since Mt. 18 has been denied and the Communications Committee has "finished" the work assigned to them.
I might take issue with that statement because a few of our more prolific posters don't even go to BBC. Also, last time I checked, the internet was hardly the last form of communication left!
My motive for being here is love for BBC and some friends who have been trampled during this mess.
I love BBC as well- I have gone there all my life and met my husband there. I have seen some people trampled and discouraged by this mess as well. Just probably not the people you normally think of.
Good point... I don't want to assume. You do seem to lack the passion that some of the Pro-Gaines posters have.
I have passion, but no- all my passion is not directed towards SG (or DC or any of them). I do believe that until some people stop hardening their hearts towards these men and those that defend them, a peaceful resolution can never be reached. Those that really love SG will be angry that he was "forced" out, if he doesn't leave the anti-gaines people won't be happy and we will just live to fight this battle over every new pastor that comes along (if we ever managed to agree on one) until there is nothing left. We will just be eying each other from different sides of the sanctuary.
What is(are) your motive(s) for being here?
I know that it is doubtful that anyone that posts here is going to change their minds, but there are probably quite a few people who read this blog, and I feel like they should get to hear the other side of things as well. (I also think that many people have seen how the "minority" is treated around here and it speaks quite loudly. )
You are welcome to email me anytime if you have any further questions about me personally, I have gone ahead and answered these here but I have noticed a pattern of spending more time talking about the people here than the issues at hand....
This blog was not about **e and it is not about me!
JMO,
you said...
the great knock...please don't look for me to be signing any loyalty pledges for Bro. Steve anytime soon. You will not find a post whereby I supported his actions. But I say again I am lead by my beliefs to support the pastor of my church until his removal or else I will leave the church on my own accord and worship elsewhere. I currently have friends and members that I enjoy my fellowship with. But if i get at that point I can no longer support my pastor then I will broken heartily leave. And that may be God's will for me and others.
But for now I am praying and hoping that David Coombs brings integrity and honor back to the staff of Bellevue, God willing. I truly believe that he has no other goals or plans but to do just that.
2:35 PM, February 23, 2007
What would be proper for DC to do (to bring back integrity and honor) that you can't also do?
Andrew
JMO
I think that until the majority membership wants Steve Gaines gone he will remain our pastor. I do not disagree with your position but you know the rest...he is my pastor and I support my pastor.
3:25 PM, February 23, 2007
To what extent do you support your pastor? I don't mean this harsh or bad I'm just thinking that you must have limit to your support and I'm wondering what it is. You said you might even leave... what would cause you to do that?
Andrew
Bepatient,
Thanks. You were right. Now I don't have to wonder what your reasons are for being here.
You told me not to assume, so I asked. I appreciate the transparency.
You wrote:
"yes, I think we are at a crossroads and we have a great opportunity to change some things in our church that have been ignored in the past, or just overlooked. I am afraid that chance might be lost by those who sometimes get too petty or angry or those who go too far or are unwilling to forgive. More will be accomplished with kindness and respectful actions than yelling and complaining."
I agree that BBC is at a crossroads. Concern for truth is not petty. Even the Lord Jesus got angry. I think that you are the one assuming when it comes to forgiveness. And, forgiveness and consequences are two different matters.
Since you have been reading the blog for some time, perhaps you will remember the many times I tried to post "Love one another" to cool off the dialog.
We agree in that regard.
You wrote:
"I also think that many people have seen how the "minority" is treated around here and it speaks quite loudly."
Do you know how hollow that sounds after the true minority here has been denied by leadership (communication, records, meeting place, etc), has been vilified by MANY posters who have come here to belittle their concerns, and many have given up and gone to other churches--leaving behind memories as dear to them as your own.
This is cyberspace not the real world. Here you may feel like a minority, but in reality you are not.
BBC needs revival, cleansing, and reform. It is badly broken right now. Only God can fix it. We all should pray that He will.
imo
How could any ordination council not have reservations about laying hands on a candidate when opposed by so many church members?
How could they lay hands on him in good conscience without allowing all of the objections to be dealt with fully?
Will those who lay hands on him actually be ministers that he has authority over?
If so, will they be able to be objective?
Will they be intimidated into falling in line with their "rubber stamp"?
God give us ministers with the courage of conviction!
Ask questions!!
Move to table the ordination rather than vote after he is questioned.
[Sample motion: Since there are matters that have not been dealt with with regard to this candidate for ordination that are causing division in the body at BBC, I move to table this ordination until these matters are fully dealt with and BBC is in one accord. At that time let us reconvene as a council and consider this candidate for ordination].
If a move to table fails or does not occur and the vote is not unanimous, then do not participate in the laying on of hands.
Pray for strength to do the right thing.
imo
ilovebbc said...
iwant2know,
Regarding your 5:02 post - why aren't you asking the same question about all the other mission trips mentioned in the bulletin insert last week
i lovebbc,
Should we be asking additional questions about the other trips you mentioned?
I really don't have any questions at this time about those trips. However, if you see something that is not correct with "those" trips, you may well want to follow up with your own questions.
MJM,
Understand, there is a trust bank that many people believe needs additional deposits. With all of the recent events at Bellevue, it may well be in the best interest of the Pastor and his wife to make some deposits by being very open with their current activity surrounding Bellevue. Especially when money is involved.
I for one would like nothing better than to support our Pastor. But, I must see signs of changes before that may happen.
These Petitions are pathetic and sad. When are some of you ever going to get it?? There are MANY of us that support Dr. Gaines 100% and love him as our Pastor. God is doing a great work at Bellevue.
Also, when are some of you going to apologize to DC and others for accusing them of breaking the law etc? When??? Josh Manning etc? When??? DC knew all along the law like he said he did. On the famous recording he said he was very familiar with the law and he was.
MANY Bellevue members did NOT want our information given out and that is our right. I thank DC and Bellevue for standing up for it's members and for Bellevue in general.
Hi all: I have been lurking for a day or two without posting anything serious because I could really tell the stress level had overcome many. Several of us that regularly lurk (and post) may not be BBC members officially but we have many connections with BBC, either through past memberships, close friends and/or family members, or just plain respect for the leadership that BBC has provided in our community and within the SBC organization. There is love for BBC from many sources.
I have come to love the posters on this blog....it is easy because you guys are loveable! I have prayed daily for your struggle, and tried to help in any way I could. Sometimes folk's posts have been very passionate.....righteous anger included. BBC is a part of the family; it is a treasured part of many lives. There are families being torn apart through this process; of course people are going to be passionate. I personally went through a church split over 9 years ago and it tore apart long time friendships. However, we owe it to our Lord and Savior to stand firm on His word. Keep up your prayers and studying because I know God is on His throne, He is in control, and He has a plan. He will guide you. I know you know this but I feel so helpless in the face of your pain. You are all in my prayers.
4545
A judge will rule on the law.
Repost:
docbellevue said...
When Bellevue filed its corporate charter it availed itself of all legal protections afforded corporations. The downside is the corporation must obey Tennessee corporate law. Thankfully, David Coombs opinion and interpretation of that law is not determinative. It seems a judge will have to educate him on the statute he once claimed to be "very well-versed" on.
The continued lack of openness is astounding, but we should not be surprised. Deacons also find it difficult to get information. Why was there no financial or attendance report at last Sunday's deacon's meeting? No report in January either.
6:50 PM, February 15, 2007
"There are MANY of us that support Dr. Gaines 100% and love him as our Pastor."
4545, like we didn't know that--I'm shocked, shocked!
How could any ordination council not have reservations about laying hands on a candidate when opposed by so many church members?
How could they lay hands on him in good conscience without allowing all of the objections to be dealt with fully?
Will those who lay hands on him actually be ministers that he has authority over?
If so, will they be able to be objective?
Will they be intimidated into falling in line with their "rubber stamp"?
God give us ministers with the courage of conviction!
Ask questions!!
Move to table the ordination rather than vote after he is questioned.
[Sample motion: Since there are matters that have not been dealt with with regard to this candidate for ordination that are causing division in the body at BBC, I move to table this ordination until these matters are fully dealt with and BBC is in one accord. At that time let us reconvene as a council and consider this candidate for ordination].
If a move to table fails or does not occur and the vote is not unanimous, then do not participate in the laying on of hands.
Pray for strength to do the right thing.
imo
4545
Well,I do understand that having a pastor like Dr. Gaines tends to make one feel like a spiritual giant. :)
Here's a draft for your own petition, 4545:
"We, the undersigned have no qualms, or at least expect no consequences, regarding Padre's total lack of discernment when faced with a pedophile on staff, plus we 100% support the slanted PCIR and the ordination of Rev. CEO for his loyalty to the cabal."
"Personal responsibility is for unwed mothers, minorities, the poor and libruls, not for ministers or presidents"
"And that's what we (God) believes."
"Ngah!"
Tim said...
"The official response that was received from the church in a nut shell said that it was none of my business. They had distributed money where they had chose and would continue to do so without the review or knowledge of anyone other than the committee members."
Who gave you this answer and was it in the form of a letter or verbal?
One comment - the monies given to the other areas referenced were in the spirit of Christian humanitarian aid to victims who had lost everything - even some family members - and it no way is the least bit similar to the FUMC giveaway - which was blatantly sinful - and if they can't discern any better than that (even without praying over it) - WHY ARE THEY HANDLING GOD'S MONEY???
No, what is astounding is that you and others think that you should have the right to OUR personal information in order to send CRAP to our homes that is against our pastor and our church.
How long are you and others going to continue this stuff? Why not find a church you and your family can serve in and leave us alone??
Many of you are consumed by this and have been for MONTHS! I guess you will tell me that is a good thing?
MANY Bellevue members did NOT want our information given out and that is our right. I thank DC and Bellevue for standing up for it's members and for Bellevue in general.
4545,
Just curious. Do you screech as loudly over the literally hundreds or thousands of gvmt. agencies, credit bureaus, marketing companies, and who knows how many others that have your name, address and phone number, plus information about you of a much more personal nature?
They all ways taught me in Sunday School that the real church were the people--so whom is against the church.
Why don't you go start a I-100%-support-Padre website, instead of badgering people here? It seems that you'd be much happier posting your CRAP in a place where your opinions won't be scrutinized for merit; and leave us alone.
4545
Your posts help IDC.
Continue please.
imo
allofgrace said: Just curious. Do you screech as loudly over the literally hundreds or thousands of gvmt. agencies, credit bureaus, marketing companies, and who knows how many others that have your name, address and phone number, plus information about you of a much more personal nature?
REPLY:
#1: I get off as many lists as possible.
#2: You have now compared this group of Christians to hundreds or thousands of gvmt. agencies, credit bureaus, marketing companies, and who knows how many others.
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