Saturday, December 09, 2006
Latest on Deacons' Show of Loyalty
This week Chuck Taylor, current Chairman of Deacons, sent this letter to the deacon body. This Sunday's planned "show of support" for the pastor by having the deacons stand on the platform with him during the morning worship services has been cancelled.
Your thoughts?
Deacon Brothers,
In the December Deacons meeting, we discussed coming forward in the Sunday morning services on December 10 to express our love and support for our Pastor. Since it was uncertain if our Pastor was in favor of this or not, we voted to ask him to decide if we should. I talked with Brother Steve on Tuesday and he said he didn’t want to make that decision or even express an opinion. He asked me to make the decision. Since then, I’ve been praying for God’s direction and talking with several Deacons who are very close to the Pastor and this situation. I know it is our Pastor’s desire to move on and focus all our attention and energies on Jesus and in servicing Him. Last Sunday morning, we heard our Pastor humbly ask the Church to forgive him and the Church responded with a standing ovation in acceptance of his apology. Sunday night Harry Smith and Phil Weatherwax expressed their love and support for our Pastor and once again the Church responded with a standing ovation expressing love and support for him. God blessed in a wonderful way as our Pastor and Congregation reached out to one another. As I prayed about what the Deacons should do, I sense in my spirit that it is time to move on. Deacons coming to the platform to express love and support of our Pastor would be appropriate but I believe it should have been done before now. It’s time to move on. This Sunday begins a new chapter and Deacons should show their love for our Pastor by faithfully serving the Lord Jesus Christ and refusing to have anything to do with people, websites, meetings or conversations that rehash those things that have been proven false or the Pastor has asked forgiveness for. [emphasis mine] Brothers, it is time to think like and act like Jesus to reach a lost and dying world. Right or wrong, I hope you understand my decision to not go to the platform this Sunday.
Chuck
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515 comments:
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I have beed out of town for 10 days. Can someone tell me what happened Sunday?
Well I'm sure they (the deacon body)would like nothing more than to move on..seeing that the CC has declared their "work is completed". I'm pretty sure after the 200+ that showed up at the last CC meeting is a good incentive to move on as well instead of making a move in church service which could possibly lead to several hundred or so standing up and walking out. jmho.
david,
Two items that you had listed as questions for the die-hard administration supporters have interest to me. They concerned the silence of Mrs. Rogers and Dr. Whitmire.
If the administration is truly interested in bringing this to an end, then it would be fairly simple to give these two individuals a couple of minutes in a service to voice their support. These two hold more congregational credibility than our entire deacon body and committees combined.
Why doesn't Chuck Taylor go to them and get them to voice their support? I know that my personal feeling on all of these issues would be ended by hearing their voice, perhaps others as well.
Of course, if those two expressed their disdain of the current administraion and policies it would probably sway a large number of the congregation the other direction.
custos,
Concerning the standing ovations. I remember a time not terribly long ago that standing ovations were unanimous. You would be hard pressed to look around and not see a number of people remaining seated now. I know that this past Sunday I and my wife kept our seat and noticed that there were others that did the same.
What is the latest on the Staff member that there are questions on?
I was told, that every January, SG preaches the entire month on finances, money, giving. Why is that not the case this year?
staff,
It is my understanding that there is a particular problem with a staff member that is in the process of being handled by the administration. This probably means that provided that they support Steve Gaines that no action will be deemed necessary. This particular issue has been tabled for reasons that I do not fully understand until there is an official action taken.
Tim,
Thnaks for the insight.I'm hearing rumbling under the table that this is going to be something of a major concern.
I only hope our Church takes the right action if what I'm hearing is true.We may better all run for the hills.
staff,
Concerning the finances. The church is currently sitting on a stock pile of cash that will take care of the normal expenses for several months. It is not necessary to increase the stock pile at the moment.
The fact that we wound up with such a stock pile of cash, which is unusual for our church, causes me to wonder if Sam Shaw had not advised that it would be necessary. This was one of the determining factors in his departure from GBC and he has been a friend and advisor to Steve Gaines.
Tim,
What do you think will happen if the church takes no action on this staff person??
Catherine Herring is featured in the Singing Christmas Tree. Is she a member of BBC?
staff,
I am completely in the dark on the details of this issue. I would expect that something should have been done this past week. My personal view is that if action had not been taken this past week then it should be considered that no action is intended to be taken. I honestly believe that if there is not an official action this Sunday that it is time to sweep from under the carpet and bring the matter before the church.
Tim, you're right about the standing ovations and unanimity. Also, I remember a time when we didn't stand for everything. The ol' saying "when you emphasize everything, you emphasize nothing" comes to mind.
Tim and Staff,
They should have taken care of this months ago. I must ask if anyone has been hurt because of their poor judgment?
i love my church,
Would you please e-mail me as to why this issue has been tabled pending administrative action? This is something that I just don't quite understand.
I heard Steve Gaines has designated standers now that on cue are supposed to stand and clap. There must be a green light that lights up somewhere. I'm trying to find it. There may be certain seats that vibrate when it's time. I thought I felt something one day that didn't seem right.
mjm, don't get all bent out of shape. I'm kidding. (about the vibrating seets)
youwillknowthem,
That is a very complete and concise list. Kudos!
WTB,
Who is Catherine Herring?
I have been out for a while, but has John Caldwell apologized to Mark Sharpe yet?
If John Caldwell still refuses to, he should resign from being a Deacon. I was just told that he was just elected as a vice chairmen.
I was also just told that a Vice Chairman really has no authority and doesn't do anything at Bellevue.
Someone let me know if this is correct?
It would appear that a deacon's current duty is to stand in front of the church and show loyalty to the pastor...I guess that's the extent of their power.
Our very own Deacon Body is coming unglued. I was also tols that there were two different groups of Deacons now. Both groups were trying to get their maan elected as Chairman Of the Deacons.
Then there was a runn-off between these two men for the Chairman's position.
This sounds like nothing but pure politics. Wait a minute, this is pure politics and no wonder we are having problems.
I love my church said...
Tim and Staff,
They should have taken care of this months ago. I must ask if anyone has been hurt because of their poor judgment?
You mean to tell me that a person on staff at Bellevue has been involved in some sexual behavior and the administration knows about it and has done nothing for months?
And you ask if by not taking care of this whenever it happened, might in some way been a cause for someone to be placed in harm`s way by this person?
That`s really loving the congregation.
If the sexual behavior is harmful to others then I am most concerned and I want to know why it takes months to remove the perpetrator?
I hope children are not involved because if they are we haven`t seen trouble at Bellevue yet!
What kind of church allows their staff the privledge of staying on staff when they have admitted to sexual behavior that is sinful?
Bellevue just sunk a little lower than low.
I'm not a member of Bellevue. I live several hundred miles away. I make many special trips to memphis just to come to Bellevue; the SInging Christmas Tree, The Memphis Passion Play, Celebrate America, among others. I followed what happened at Bellevue faithfully while Dr. Rogers was pastor and have continued to through Dr. Gaines' leadership. I am appalled at what has happened to this once shining light in a world of darkness. From the outside looking in, it apperas that there MUST be an immediate change in the heart of the leadership of Bellevue. From the outside, it appears that the church is in emminent danger of irrepairable damage.
Broken Hearted,
Outsider
Tim posted:
staff,
It is my understanding that there is a particular problem with a staff member that is in the process of being handled by the administration. This probably means that provided that they support Steve Gaines that no action will be deemed necessary. This particular issue has been tabled for reasons that I do not fully understand until there is an official action taken.
REPLY: this probably means??
you again just post "rumors" and gossip. this is the BIG problem with this blog etc. mixed in with a few "facts" you and others just put info out there with NOTHING to back it up. that is WRONG. this is exactly why the Bible warns against gossip etc.
you DO NOT have any facts and have NO idea what any of this means
I was told, that every January, SG preaches the entire month on finances, money, giving. Why is that not the case this year?
staff, you're close, but last January SG mentioned that he started each year off with the same 4 or 5 topics covering the same general theme. One of those was finances/giving, not all of them. I guess this year will be an exception.
In regards to the latest instructions from Chuck Taylor, does this mean we are now lepers amongst the membership? Or is that finely tuned wording concerning those things which have been proven false supposed to provide some distance from any further discussions on some topics?
custos, I agree with you on the preaching. I knew we could not compare whoever followed Dr R with him, but I agree that we have been playing in an ankle-deep theological wading pool for the last year. I didn't realize how shallow it was until I went to Mid-America's Wed morning devotional this week and came out feeling like I'd taken a big dive into the deep end of a pool in the heat of summer (which also explains why Dr. Spradlin got 3 times the number of votes as the next highest person when names were suggested to the search committee).
also custos, there are some days that we applaud so much that I'm not sure if we're in church or at an awards ceremony :)
tim posted: staff,
Concerning the finances. The church is currently sitting on a stock pile of cash that will take care of the normal expenses for several months. It is not necessary to increase the stock pile at the moment.
The fact that we wound up with such a stock pile of cash, which is unusual for our church, causes me to wonder if Sam Shaw had not advised that it would be necessary. This was one of the determining factors in his departure from GBC and he has been a friend and advisor to Steve Gaines
REPLY: again, more gossip with NOTHING to back it up. NOTHING Tim. try dealing with facts and not he said she said, 100th hand "knowledge"
hisservant,
Enlighten us with the facts, please.
HisServant-1,
You better watch out if Chuck gets wind of you being back on the blog.
staff posted: I was told, that every January, SG preaches the entire month on finances, money, giving. Why is that not the case this year?
REPLY and where did you hear that Brother Steve was not going to do the same this Jan??
I think I posted this one before, but I'll do it again:
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
Giordano Bruno - 16th century philosopher
Lot of talk about the majority, as if that makes any difference as to what is True and what is not.
hisservant1,
Once again you come here and say that we don't know the facts, yet you offer none yourself. Not much of a refutation.
hisservant1,
I guess we can file your silence with the rest of the stellar answers we've gotten..file: "I don't know", "you'll have to ask so and so", blank stare..etc etc.
hisservat1 said you DO NOT have any facts and have NO idea what any of this means
2:43 PM, December 09, 2006
Well if Chucky Taylor has given you special permission to br here on this sinful blog why don't you elighten us with the facts.
trucker,
He doesn't have any. In weeks he's added nothing to this forum except to accuse it of being "hate-filled gossip"...of course he hasn't refuted anything.
I have always answered everything that was asked.
I am gone FOR GOOD this time. This is not the place for me.
Most of Bellevue is ready move on and that is what we are going to do. I hope and pray that many of you will join us in moving on. We need to get back to the Lord's business.
If you cannot move on, I pray that you can find another church that you and your family can worship in and serve our Lord in.
Ask yourself? what have I done for Christ in these last several months? how many have I lead to Christ? what am I doing to bring Christ and only Christ glory? what am spending my time doing? what are my thoughts focused on?
May God Bless you all and your families.
May God get the Glory in EVERYTHING!
Have no fear hisservant1, God will most assuredly get His glory.
If you people claim to be Christians then why don't you spend as much time praying for things to change as you do writing on here?
Sounds like you don't think your God is big enough to handle Steve Gaines or anything else at Bellevue.
hisservent1 said
I have always answered everything that was asked.
Not on this blog, all I have read from you are hate filled diatribes devoid of any substance, that would relate to giving facts.
what am I doing to bring Christ and only Christ glory?
That is a good question I haven't seen any evidence of Christlike behavoir from your posts.Especially when you defend the lies from the leadership which last I heard lying is not Christlike behavoir.
REPLY: again, more gossip with NOTHING to back it up. NOTHING Tim. try dealing with facts and not he said she said, 100th hand "knowledge"
OK hissy boy -enlighten us poor low lifes with your dazzling knowledge of the inner workings of the leadership of our church.I have yet to see YOU state facts.
I am gone FOR GOOD this time. This is not the place for me.
Haven't we heard this before and before and before and before.
Truthhound said...You mean to tell me that a person on staff at Bellevue has been involved in some sexual behavior and the administration knows about it and has done nothing for months?
I've been gone a week and this has snuck past me. What in the world is this all about????
HisServant-1,
You'll be back. You know you will. Even if it's coming back as Ace.
It's interesting that you said the pastor never had his salary renegotiated but it turned out he did (since we didn't offer him enough to live on the first time) and then there was the fence issue. That was just gossip and never happened. It seems that happened as well. Then there was the dream issue you said was just gossip and that turned out to be true since Mark Dougharty told the deacons he said it afterall even though he didn't remember. The cheerleading tickets were just gossip as well with no facts until they were admitted to. Steve Gaines never said the things to Gardendale on the way out the door and then the video popped up and it turned out that he did say them. I could go on and on but then again, I've got nothing to protect other than honesty.
See you again soon.
Churchmouse,
Most respectfully, your problem is not with Warren. Things are happening at Bellevue that were never taught in Purpose Driven nor were they practiced at Saddleback. They may be people’s misunderstandings of Warren, but they’re not Warren.
OK, Pastor David,
May I respectfully disagree with you. Warrenism is very much our problem.
I will list for some problems that stem from Warrenism in our church:
1. The pastor led form of church government where the pastor and a few men have taken charge of all church business
2. The elimination of business meetings, church committees,and other traditional leadership groups
3.The marginalinization or ostracization of those who question the new PDC program
4. Closed meetings between pastor, certain staff, and selected leaders without any accountability to the general membership
5. The requirement of unbibical oaths of loyalty for staff and members who participate in the service
6. The requirement of unbibical personality testing as a requirement for new members.
7. Restructuring the church bylaws. (In our case, we can't get the complete bylaws.)
And that is just a sample.
These characteristics of the PD church model have come right out of Rick Warren's Pastor's Toolbox into our church. This is not the way the New Testament chuches operated. It is empowering a few influencial men to tear our church apart.
These things ARE practiced at Saddleback Church. Please show me how I have misunderstood what I have read on Warren's own websites.
HisServant-1 said...
tim posted: staff,
Concerning the finances. The church is currently sitting on a stock pile of cash that will take care of the normal expenses for several months. It is not necessary to increase the stock pile at the moment.
The fact that we wound up with such a stock pile of cash, which is unusual for our church, causes me to wonder if Sam Shaw had not advised that it would be necessary. This was one of the determining factors in his departure from GBC and he has been a friend and advisor to Steve Gaines
REPLY: again, more gossip with NOTHING to back it up. NOTHING Tim. try dealing with facts and not he said she said, 100th hand "knowledge"
2:47 PM, December 09, 2006
Reply:
I believe that the facts have been substantiated that Bellevue is sitting on a stock pile of cash. It is also curious that we have had a long range planning committee for over a year that has not produced a long range plan, but we have continue to stock pile cash.
I believe that the facts have been substantiated concerning the relationship between Steve Gaines and Sam Shaw. I believe also that the finances as confirmed by members of GBC was a major reason that Sam Shaw was unsucessful in his attempt to commander the church.
Perhaps you need to get a few facts. You claim to have them and claim to know them. Quite honestly, if you knew any of this before it came to this blog and did not take it before the church, then I would consider you a traitor against Bellevue Baptist Church. The simple fact of that matter is that you do not know the truth and the truth is not in you, if the truth were in you then you would testify to it.
Tim,
Can I have an Amen?
I don't know if it concerns anyone else or not, but hisservant-1 has never denied being a deacon. It would be truly sad if that were the case. Can you imagine if this is representative of our deacon body why our church finds itself in the mess that it is in. I sincerely hope that this individual is just some random phantom wanna be.
Another mistake that Sam Shaw had made in his attempt to over run GBC is that he allowed too much time to pass with out moving on. It gave those that were opposed to his plans an opportunity to mount a defense and thwart his efforts.
It is possible that he has counseled Steve Gaines to push forward quickly and strongly to avoid making the mistakes that he did. I find it interesting that the administration wants to move on without providing a solution to a single solitary issue.
Tim,
I'm sure it is a deacon close to Steve Gaines. Of all the years I've been a member of Bellevue Baptist Church, I've never met a member yet that was arrogant like a group of about 8 men I know. It is sad to think that the folks leading us right now are this way. I am praying the God raises up new leaders at Bellevue with humble hearts.
25+
I believe that this item needs to be revised.
2. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.
I believe that any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church either directly or indirectly should remove themselves from eligibility to serve as a deacon or on any church committee. My reasoning would be that it would take out any politicing between deacons or committees to scratch one anothers backs. There just seems to be too many political social clubs trying to achieve balance within the church.
david,
Just out of curiosity what part of the country are you orginally from.
david,
I didn't know. I was born in Memphis and have family roots in Tupelo, MS. Sometimes I believe that it can be a challenge to communicate with truth southerners like myself. I don't know for a fact but I believe that churchmouse might be a true southerner as well.
Churchmouse,
I believe that you will probably understand David's point, but I wanted to phrase it a bit differently.
The idea that he is putting across is that we need to be very specific. The list that you gave was an excellent example of that. Whether they are related to Rick Warren or not is really irrelevant. The fact that they are not related to the Bible is what is important. "Warrenism" covers a broad range of topics that would be confusing to most people. The list that you gave would not.
PS. David is trying to help, but you know how difficult it is to understand those pop drinking, surfer dudes. :)
Ephesians 4:1-6 (NASB-U)
[1] Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, [2] with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, [3] being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; [5] one Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
Can we trust God in His infinite wisdom to bring all things that are hidden to light? Did not Jesus choose the 12 disciples and one of them was a devil? And yet, Jesus loved him to the end...
Actually you can call it PDC/seeker-sensitive/seeker-friendly/CGM...it really doesn't matter what flag you want to fly it under...all these operate from the same basic philosophy of church growth.
Is this philosophy in place at Bellevue?...I think so. Go read Rick Warren's toolbox...Transitioning an Established Church.
Start youth worship service...check
Introduce new praise choruses and put old hymns to new arrangements...check
Any who resist the program..let em go..check
Identify resistors and measure their influence...check
Preach to felt needs...check...(billboards, sermons)
Restructure church government...check
Shall I go on?
No fair, you deleted two posts while I was loading the dishwasher. What's up with the "true southern" comments?
Tim said,
PS. David is trying to help, but you know how difficult it is to understand those pop drinking, surfer dudes. :)
Tim, I agree he is trying to help. I also believe he is correct in saying we should be specific and let go of some of the non-issues.
Concerning Rick Warren, I stand by my earlier comments. They were more general and less specific because I didn't want to use up two miles of this thread that no one would read. I believe it is important to get Warrenism out of Bellevue. Why are people so devoted to the ideas of a man who thinks he is going to bring about Global Peace? He operates on the premise that the purpose of the church is to bring in the "unchurched". That is not the scriptural purpose of the church. Neither are his methods scriptural.
allofgrace,
I agree it doesn't really matter what you call it, either it is Biblical or it isn't.
I believe that we need to focus in on the specific things that are blatantly unBiblical and by doing so will increase our credibility.
churchmouse said -
He operates on the premise that the purpose of the church is to bring in the "unchurched". That is not the scriptural purpose of the church.
Question: What do you do with Matt. 28:19-20?
churchmouse,
I am not a Rick Warren fan by any means and please write post as long as you would like. I rather enjoyed the list of specifics that you gave. I felt that they were enlightening and insightful.
I believe that there have been church growth influences at work at Bellevue as well, but I a lot of the stuff that Rick Warren assembled together in his books are older than he is.
mjm,
I believe that it says "go" not bring them.
Okay, Tim ... since you want to do another word war ... if we go, as Jesus commanded, and we preach the gospel, where do you propose that we baptize them and teach them to be disciples? My point is that there is not just one Scriptural purpose of the church. There are multiple purposes. The church is God's plan to evangelize a world that does not know Him. Or at least that's what I've always been taught, long before anyone ever heard of Rick Warren.
churchmouse,
I forgot to say. I asked David where he was originally from. He posted a state and then deleted it. I didn't see the other deleted post.
By the way are you a true southerner, born & raised, pure-bred, blue-blood.
Tim, did you ever eat at the old Hungry Fisherman over off Shelby Oaks?
mjm,
Granted!...I believe that evangelization is part of the churchs plan, the church is also to allow members to grow, the church is also to send out missionaries.
If evangelization becomes the only part of the churchs function however it will quickly lead to apostasy because there will be none that are grounded and able to teach and disciple those that have been saved. The New Testament church consisted primarily was for the edification of the body. The members responsibility was to add to the body.
mjm,
I remember the place and probably did eat there at one time or another.
Wow, Tim ... it's a watershed moment. I think I'm actually agreeing with you, if not 100%, close.
I just wondered ... something about the speed with which you jump on the things I post reminded me of how quickly the catfish would surface and attack when feed was dumped in the water out back.
mjm,
Stranger things have happened, I suppose.
I have always felt that we needed to keep the main thing the main thing, without making the main thing the only thing.
Tim said...
mjm,
I believe that it says "go" not bring them.
6:38 PM, December 09, 2006
Thanks, Tim
***
MJM said,
Question: What do you do with Matt. 28:19-20?
6:36 PM, December 09, 2006
MJM, My Bible says, "Go ye, therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit..." In the margin is a note, "GK Go = As you go make diciples of all nations."
Would you agree that perhaps that's one of the beauties of how God has gifted us spiritually? Some are gifted to evangelize, others to teach, others to exhort, others to show mercy ... because the purpose(s) of the church are multiple and it takes the variety of gifts He has given for us to be equipped to accomplish them?
mjm,
No one objects to evangelization..what we object to is the idea of gearing everything about the church to attract lost people to it..in other words to make it attractive to unregenerate people...make the worship service to suit the tastes of unsaved people.
Someone asked Who is Catherine Herring????She is featured in the Singing Christmas Tree......WHO IS SHE????Anyone??????
By the way...Did anyone read the commical Appeal this morning about the tree...It did not mention Jamie Parker...Jon Tynor directing??
mjm,
Sorry...nothing personal...usually if I am on and see something that perks my interest I jump right in. I think that has caused me a little trouble more than a time or two.
Tim said,
By the way are you a true southerner, born & raised, pure-bred, blue-blood.
6:42 PM, December 09, 2006
Tim, wow, I am blushing. That is high praise. 8^)
Tim -- agreed again. I think it's caused trouble for all of us. But as I've heard here before, 'tis the nature of blogging. I guess we'll just have to build a bridge and get over it.
About the SCT -- since someone asked ... are you talking about the young lady named Catherine Herring who is in the youth group? If so, yes, she is a member of BBC. She's about 16-17 and tall, and pretty, and has a beautiful voice if we're referring to the same person.
And about Jon Tyner -- Jon directs the pit choir, not the entire production. I, too, found it odd that they didn't mention Bro. Jamie, but I felt in an odd way that perhaps that was out of deference to Dr. Whitmire. I don't know whose choice that was -- the reporter's or Jamie's or nobody's, but that was just my impression when I read the Commercial Fabricator this morning.
mjm,
Regarding the gifts of the spirit. I believe that we have found another area of common ground. The thing that is most frustrating about this particular area is that those that are evangelist believe that all should be as they are and on and on.
In my thinking this is part of the problem that is happening at Bellevue. It seems to me that an entire group of differently gifted people are ignored because their gift is not the preferred gift.
Ephesians 4:11-13
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
David, the key issue.
I believe in the integrity of my Pastor, yes (okay, everyone, you can stop rolling your eyes -- you don't want to freeze that way, my Mama said!). But my opinion does not embrace any kind of disrespect for Dr. Rogers or who he was, nor does it just blindly defend Bro. Steve. It has everything to do, on the other hand, with my personal experience of following others into professional positions and finding that they still want to "come and go" at will while I am still unpacking my stuff and learning everyone's names. I've thought about it, honestly -- and I wonder just how Bro. Steve would have or should have approached Dr. Rogers about this. I have not asked him, so anything I say would be opinion and speculation and I don't know how productive it would be. But my knee-jerk reaction is that Bro. Steve probably felt that the way he handled it was the only way TO handle it, and once again, it has backfired on him.
And as far as changing locks on someone, it's a tough decision to make, but I've done it personally before. I would think Dr. Rogers had no clue that he was doing anything that would cause resentment or uneasiness on Bro. Steve's part. However, I read a day or so ago that someone suggested Dr. Rogers was "collecting evidence" and that was the reason he was giving himself entry. If that is the case, it would be entirely out of character for Dr. Rogers, would you not agree?
So my take on this issue is that, bottom line, I believe there is more to the story. I totally trust the character of both men.
Tim, we do agree again! The emphasis on one gift over another is what happens often in charismatic churches, where the "charisma" gifts are emphasized to the exclusion of all else. As humans, it appeals to our baser nature, I think, to think of our gifts as the most special because our Father selected them for us individually, much like children on Christmas morning comparing presents and drawing from them inferences about how much they are loved. But I believe that's because we ARE children -- and we're approaching giftedness from an individual rather than a BODY point of view. Paul teaches that gifts were given to benefit the BODY, not the individual -- and individual focus is exactly what got the church at Corinth in trouble.
I know all of this because of a questionnaire I filled out once ...
(Smile)
so let me get this straight; Chucky Taylor declares that it is over and forbids the deacons from discussing anything further with the membership...and he is under the impression that it is all just going to go away now..It appears to me that Chucky is engaging in some wishful thinking.
maybejustmaybe wrote:
about tim...
"I just wondered ... something about the speed with which you jump on the things I post reminded me of how quickly the catfish would surface and attack when feed was dumped in the water out back."
Hmmm... he looks a little like a catfish, too. :-{
I was a member of a Purpose Driven Church before I came to Bellevue. People were being saved! People were being baptised! How evil can it be if I will get to see those souls in heaven?
I am upset and I need to find out the truth. I don't read this blog or savingbellevue because my teacher asked us not to. I am reading it today because my sister called to say there is information about sexual immorality with a child at Bellevue.
If you know about this you have to tell us. It is too important for all the parents not to know. Two of my children are still young enough to be in danger. I want to know what happened before I take my children to church tomorrow. If I can't find out what happened I am not taking them. I know I sound like a hysterical mother. I can't help it, God made us this way! Would you take chances with your children if you were me?
They can't allow anybody who did that stay at Bellevue. Don't they watch the news? Hello, remember the Catholics? If it is true the church knew about this and no one did anything about it I will be outraged. This is really serious. Anybody who knew about this and did nothing has to be fired.
Someone please help me. I am sick over this and I don't know what to do. Heaven help us if this is true.
Ma'am may I ask where or how your sister got that information?
mom2four,
Please e-mail the address in the profile. You can remain anonymous.
NBBCOF
mom2four,
While I can understand your conern, I don't think that we should overreact. The sexual immorality rumor could be just THAT, or it could be an affair between two adults,and while sinful,it would not involve a child. These kinds of things take on a life of their own once it gets started. And for all we know, someone in the 'inner circle" started that rumor. Take a deep breath.
mom2four,
It is not something that has been posted on the blog for sure. We have not been party to unsubstantiated stories.
fedupatbbc,
Do you have any familarity with the new deacon chairman? I can not even recall the name because I know so little about him.
Tim,
The new deacon chairman is Bryan Miller. He spoke at the last two CC meetings. He's president of ECS.
Why is it that at least 7 of the original CC members have ties to ECS?
Why did the Bellevue Foundation give ECS over $500K last year?
I believe Harry Smith's son-in-law is or was in charge of fundraising for ECS.
nbbcof,
Brian Miller was the fellow that decided to discuss the dream issue with Mark Sharpe, is that correct?
Thanks David. I agree 100%. That's how I felt also--that and extreme amusement that believing in God was a major sermon at a Baptist church. =)
I forget if it was you or someone else who mentioned mid-america and the preaching there. Man, I've just started listening to GBC's podcasts with Dr Spradlin and man he is doing so great. I always loved it when he preached at Bellevue. I'm just glad that I can now stream weekly sermons from him along with LWF stuff.
Nepotism, business connections, back scratching...bad mix
Hi Lucy,
I don't think I've seen you post before so let me welcome you.
Many here can comment to the PDC/L movements better than I, but i'll see what I can do with your post.
Many here believe that the PDC movement is akin to seeker friendliness--that is, the idea that the church should bring the world in to itself to evangelize.
This approach is pretty hard to back up with Scripture, and in fact it runs counter to a good deal of Scripture. So we reject it.
While many will condemn PDC stuff because of "changes" in worship and approach to church, the ultimate problem for the folks around here is the fact that we believe it compromises Biblical injunctions regarding how we as the body are to relate to the world, we're not to be unqueally yoked, we're to come out of the world, and we're to go out to the world. We're not to bring them in to us. As James said, "a double-minded man is unsteady in all his ways." How much worse to have a double-minded church! And that's what you get if you have the world in the church's midst.
I hope that helps clear things up a tad. We want to see people saved every bit as much as you--and it's so wonderful that you do--but we believe the chuch should be winning them in the world.
Best,
Josh
custos,
LOL...yes that's deep stuff isn't it?...somehow I always thought that's what Paul referred to as the elementary truths of the faith.
Hi Fedup,
You know, this whole denial thing reminds me so much of the Clinton administration's approach to problems. (And that is not to compare BBC's administration to the Clinton administration; it's simply a comparison of appraoches, nothing else!)
When issues would hit the fan, Clinton and Co. would simpy deny, deny, deny. They were smart enough to know that the public has incredibly short memories and eventually everything would just go away. They knew the news cycle would just sweep things away and eventually udner the rug.
I think the BBC leadership ahs the same approach. They never answer questions, and when they do (a la the CC brochure), they answer in half truths or worse.
This feels so much like Clinton redux to me. The only difference is that Clinton was actually fun to watch (and no one jump me for that, I'm a die-hard Republican). This is way more personal.
My sister (and her husband) first learned of this from church staff, not a blog. We only came here looking for information because we thought someone might know more details. This has nothing to do with child molestation and not adultery.
Some of you have mentioned this so someone knows more than we do.
Anyone?
Hi Allforgrace,
I think it's just so hard sometimes for people to see past people walking the asiles. Object lessons are powerful and people love annecdotal evidence. But if we can get folks to pause, look at Scripture, and then compare that with what they thought they knew--well sometimes we can win one over.
Custos,
I had you for an Independent.
Mark
PS - Answered u on prev thread.
Outsider, thank you very much for your timely encouragement. We feel the same way and hope in the not-too-distant future to see the glory days return to our home.
custos,
exactly...that's the problem with much of today's preaching...loss of confidence in the sufficiency of scripture...so methods become the substitute.
swtt said...
I heard Steve Gaines has designated standers now that on cue are supposed to stand and clap. There must be a green light that lights up somewhere. I'm trying to find it. There may be certain seats that vibrate when it's time. I thought I felt something one day that didn't seem right.
SWTT, that was hilarious! I've wondered about that for a while now. I'm positive that the choir is now functioning as a queing device for the congregation.
mom2four,
if you'll go to the email link..the blog moderator has requested that you email them...anonymously if you like.
All of Grace,
Is it insuffiency of scripture or is it the application of it.
telos,
I think both...if the preacher has no confidence in it's sufficiency...to make one wise unto salvation and for the sanctification of the saints...then application is lost.
Telos,
Well, now you're going to get me into trouble, especially with this crowd. But why not?
I'm a republican, but I have very, very heavy libertarian leanings. Makes politics vs faith kinda tricky sometimes. =) But what's life without a challange?
Were you serious about having me figured as an independent? If so, I'm really curious about why that might be. I don't give off one of "those" vibes do I? =)
Cheers,
Josh
Allforgrace,
You're right on. They want a skeleton program that they can flesh out to grow their church instead of just relying on the Holy Spirit and God's Word. Sad stuff,
JM
All of Grace,
What determines the mixture of Grace and Law in the application?
If you have children or if you have seen children disciplined do you apply one measure?
Does not the Bible open up two you in different ways at different times in your walk?
telos,
As I see it...solid belief in the sufficiency of scripture+rightly dividing (handling) the word of truth=right application...they're really inseparable. imho.
Telos,
Honestly, I was surprised you affiliated with any party.
Thought you to be an independent Christian:)
The waters get rough when stuck to anothers thinking or anothers platform.
Did not some say that there is not a dime worth of difference between the two parties?
mom2four said
My sister (and her husband) first learned of this from church staff, not a blog. We only came here looking for information because we thought someone might know more details. This has nothing to do with child molestation and not adultery.
Mom, I am confused. In your first post, you are concerned about sexual immorality with a child, and you are concerned for the safety of your chidlren, and you are afraid to let them go to church. Now you say it is not child molestation. I'm trying to figure out what it is you are afraid of.
telos said...
All of Grace,
What determines the mixture of Grace and Law in the application?
If you have children or if you have seen children disciplined do you apply one measure?
Does not the Bible open up two you in different ways at different times in your walk
Not exactly sure the direction of your question...as far as the Bible goes...I think it is in unity..so it cannot actually open up to me in different ways at different times.
Law and Grace: the purpose of the law is threefold in my view...first it reveals to us God's holiness and his righteous demands of us..secondly in that, it reveals to us our falling short of it and the utter impossibility of keeping it perfectly. God's standard is perfection. Thirdly, it is regulative for the Christian in that God's standards never change.
Grace: God right his law in the hearts of his people in the new covenant...Paul stated.."I delight in the law in the inward man." We still cannot keep His commands perfectly...but in the covenant of grace..we promise to obey Him..He promises to forgive us when we fail.
writes...not right...sheesh..LOL
mom2four,
The American Heritage Dictonary defines Adultery as " voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse'
So you are telling us that this is not child molestation, and it is not adultery...soooo, the only conclusion is that two married people are having sex with each other and you are somehow afraid to allow your children to go to church now.
Moving right along..........
I did email the blog moderator. He has not responded. Forget it anyway. I know what we were told and I believe it.
I am not a gossip and I don't like being called one. I want to protect my children and I am not getting any help here. I don't even read your website. I don't care about the latest credit card caper. My husband is trying to talk to a minister right now.
My last statement had a typo. It was supposed to read: This has to do with child molestation and not adultery. I originally wrote it differently and didn't fix it. I'm so angry I can't type and I can't see straight.
Telos,
Fantastic post on the other thread! Now, commenting on stuff like this can be dangerous because anyone can come off looking like he thinks he's got it figured out and everyone else doesn't. For the purposes of this post, I'm just going to ignore that since we all know it's not true. =)
I think I agree with you 100%. Have you ever read any Don Miller? (No one jump me for reading Miller! I'm serious. Don't do it.) I think he goes was too far (eg, not taking sin seriously enough), but his points about the church today are some of the most salient I've ever read.
While evangelicals hold the line better than anyone else as far as sticking to Scirpture, we're also some of the most unforgiving, mean spirited types out there.
Miller throws that into sharp relief in a wya that at least to me couldn't be ignored. I now find myself in the nether world of holding myself to God's commands but not at all expecting the world to behave by them or feeling I should hold the world to those standards--which is antithetical to lots of evangelical (esp Baptist) thinking--or practice. (That combined with my conservatism is where the Libertarian bent comes in. Of course, that also fights with the Burke in me that keeps screaming “But government is supposed to promote virtue!” But that’s for a different post.)
I'd be interested if you've read any of his work and your opinions on it.
Best,
Josh
Josh,
All of Grace has written something that has really hit me. Give me a second.
Is Miller the Guy who wrote Blue Like Jazz?
Mark
MOM2FOUR said...
I am upset and I need to find out the truth. I don't read this blog or savingbellevue because my teacher asked us not to. I am reading it today because my sister called to say there is information about sexual immorality with a child at Bellevue.
If you know about this you have to tell us. It is too important for all the parents not to know. Two of my children are still young enough to be in danger. I want to know what happened before I take my children to church tomorrow. If I can't find out what happened I am not taking them. I know I sound like a hysterical mother. I can't help it, God made us this way! Would you take chances with your children if you were me?
They can't allow anybody who did that stay at Bellevue. Don't they watch the news? Hello, remember the Catholics? If it is true the church knew about this and no one did anything about it I will be outraged. This is really serious. Anybody who knew about this and did nothing has to be fired.
Someone please help me. I am sick over this and I don't know what to do. Heaven help us if this is true.
7:54 PM, December 09, 2006
MOM2Four,
OUT with it, is there is something we need to know?
Mark,
Take your time. No hurry. And yes, he's the one.
I'm also writing a response to you on the politics thing. It'll be out in a second.
JM
iwanttoknow,
I don't know! That is what we have been trying to find out all night! We heard about this and since then we can't find out any more. We don't know who it is and we don't know what the church did about it. Now these people are jumping on me and lecturing me because I misspoke. They must not be mothers or they would know how I feel about this.
I have trusted this church with all four of my children. I leave them and never once have I been concerned about anything worse than them being around other children with the sniffles. Now I hear this and don't know what to think or who to trust. It makes me sick to my stomach. I am too emotional to explain how I feel right now and I am sorry.
Telos,
I sense a burgeoning friendship here. =)
You're description of my position right now was pretty accurate in spite of my alignment with a party. A friend once made the comment to me, "A good sign of intellectual growth is getting to the point where basically no one agrees with you." While you can obviously take that too far, it does make sense in a certain context. After all, when is the crowd ever right? Also there are so very many considerations to take into account when talking politics that it’s almost impossible to have uniformity of a broader view unless there’s alignment with something like a party. But then that also means giving up some independence of thought IMHO. That said, I almost never totally align any one way. I’m a die-hard repub in the sense that they’re the best practical chance I’ve got so I go with them. If, however, I had a chance to do some good with a Constitution Party guy or even a libertarian (as long as he couldn’t do too much damage!) I’d go for it without hesitation.
But of course, that’s where the whole libertarian vs conservative pops up and leaves me basically twisted like a pretzel. I’m huge on classical liberalism—freedom from government interference, property rights, speech, etc. But I also realize that a good government will promote virtue. Those two positions are hard for me to reconcile. But, that’s part of the fun of life: learning and adapting to these things as time goes by.
Best,
Josh
All of Grace,
I have tried to answer you post three times and have just stopped. Thanks for the thoughts!
My only problem is that I dont think I have ever felt absolute unity and I dont think I have ever been absolutely obedient.
Sometimes my perceived obedience to the law softens my heart and sometimes the utter gratitude of His grace overwhelms me despite my sin. Does this make sense?
Mark
mom2four,
I understand your concerns. I don't think that anyone has any details of what you are asking about. The only thing so far have been some vague references. It has been something here that was ignored because it did not have any credibility to date. Not to mention that no one wants to throw around a charge like that if there is no truth to it.
telos,
absolutely brother. Christ fulfilled the law (active obedience)...became our perfect sacrifice (passive obedience). Our disobedience was imputed to Him...His righteousness is imputed to us by faith. "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness."
custos,
I believe that the problem comes about concerning government because a good people do not need government regulations to make them do the right thing. However, in the world that we live in if there are not government regulations to reward good behavior and punish bad behavior, then the undesirable runs rampant.
I don't even know if that makes sense to me, but maybe it will to you.
mom2four,
This blog is not the place to discuss this issue. Your concerns are legitimate, but the forum is wrong. You will find the answers you are looking for, but it can't be here. It just can't.
All of Grace,
Thanks again.
This Grace thing with PD has been on my mind for awhile. Again, I will ask, how does one determine the amounts of law and grace in a sermon or a church.
Grace unto itself is truth.
Law unto itself is truth.
Apart they are abused and distorted but yet they are they both always equally applied? Does a church throw law at you like some rock without forming a relationship and call it truth? Are we always able to face the truth? Do we need a measure of grace before we can comprehend the truth? I am confused at this when assessing PD churches.
Mark
mom2four,
I think that you need to think about this rationally.
First of all, all we have to go by on here is what you type. I merely responded to what you typed. We had no way of knowing what you MEANT to type.
Now, having said that....
If this is a child molestation case, then the parents must have brought it to the attention of the church. Think about it, were it your child, wouldn't you have called the police, as well. BBC does not have the power to prevent someone from being prosecuted for sexual CRIMES.
And just so you know, there has been a rumor floating around about an affair...between two adults..no children involved. So I'm really not buying into either version. But if the leadership of BBC has been made aware of a CRIME being perpetrated on a child, that would mean that the parents must have brought it to their attention.IF the parents are aware of a crime against their own child, they would go to the police. Surely you don't think that the perpetrator would have gone to the leadership and admitted it, without being accused. That is not how pediafiles work.
The law enforcement officials would not be allowing this person to be around children until it is straightend out, assuming that the parents would have reported it. And surely, the parents would have reported it. Why would they want to protect a perpetrator.
. I do not mean to minimize your concern. But I do think that you need to think it thru and stop emoting. And I say that in a respectful tone. I really think it will be ok.
P.S. I'm a mom, too.
Churchmouse,
Where am I going to get answers? Friends have told us they know about this and then in the next breath they can't talk about it. I don't know why this is even a debateable issue. Do you? Parents have to know. I don't care how much Brother Steve makes or if he eats at Ruths Chris. What I do care about is protecting my children no matter what.
I thought you were the people saving the church. I am sorry if I said something you did not want to hear. I am not sorry for being concerned.
Custos,
The problem that I have encountered in dealing with those of the libertarian party is that they seem to have a belief that nothing is worth fighting for. No matter what injustices are done and no matter where they are done. The folks that I have dealt with seem to have a mind set that everyone, everywhere could remove their military and police force and everything would be fine.
The nice thing that I have seen in dealing with them is that they are extremely fair in reporting the facts. I know I subscribe to a libertarian newsletter that conducts political polls and they were the only poll that had this last presidential election nailed down to the state and also predicted the how close the swing states would be.
Hi Tim,
I see your point. You're totally right. The tricky part for me is that a great deal of my wants as little government interference as possible. Another part of me wants government to interfere to promote right (not the same as restraining evil).
But this is a debate I've been trying to hash out with myself for years, and I don't think I'll be able to solve it on the trusty ol' blog. =)
Shoot me an email some time and let me know how things are going.
Cheers,
Josh
I agree, Tim. A lot of them can border on anarchists. Those aren't my types. =) I prefer classical liberals, but they're just so hard to come by! And as a party they're sort of an oximoronic: "We're classical liberals. We belive in less government. Give us money so we can get into the government." Ah, so sad that such a fatal and obvious flaw should exist! =)
There shouldn't be an "an" in front of "oximornic." Sorry.
And my email request of Tim makes me think that this would probably be better dealt with privately than on the forum.
Sorry guys. Didn't mean to inflict politics on everyone. After all, we're already stuck on the other great conversational taboo--religion! ;-)
JM
I admit I emotional. I have been all night. I oray your analysis is right.
I think you are wrong when you said it will be ok. If this is true it will never be ok again for the child who was molested. Molestation never goes away.
telos,
It is my understanding from scripture that it is the Spirit who illumines the truth of scripture to the heart. In order to properly teach grace I believe the law must also be preached..Paul taught that he would not know what sin was apart from the law. Our sinfulness is revealed by the law...that and the inability of the natural man to conform to it, or for that matter to even understand it, since it is spiritually discerned. That's the bad news. The good news is...Jesus Christ fulfilled God's righteous demands (law), and took upon himself our sin, bore the penalty that was rightfully ours. All who repent of their sin and rely (trust) solely upon His person and finished work are saved. Saved from the penalty of sin (spiritual death), the power of sin (sanctification), and finally the presence of sin (glorification).
Custos,
Sorry to drag you on the wrong road of Politics. Would love to talk politics via email. NASS has my email address(perhaps we should give her a salary:))
As far as burke - it has been awhile.
Miller is fantastic.
Would love to hear your thoughts on PD churches.
Cheers - Mark
mom2four wrote;
I think you are wrong when you said it will be ok. If this is true it will never be ok again for the child who was molested. Molestation never goes away.
10:29 PM, December 09, 2006
mom..
You miss the point. Of course that never goes away. What i am saying is that i do not believe that a child's parents have reported a molestation situation to the administration at bbc without going to the police, too. Think about it, isn't that what YOU would do.. it is certainly
what i would do. And if that is the case. it will be taken seriously by law enforcement and and that person is not around children.
For the child molestor to still be working with children, we would have to believe that the molested child's parents did not report it to the police. And because i do not belive that, i think that children are not in danger. And that is why i say, ' it'll be ok.
And all of this is hypothetical. I am not buying into this rumor, because that is all it is..again, i say that for you to believe your children are in danger at church, you would have to belive that a set of parents are protecting a perpetrator.
This is not something that we want to get started at our church. We have enough problems the way it is.
Just my opinion.
allofgrace,
If I am understanding you correctly. The idea is that we within ourselves can never fulfill the law. So within the law we are condemned. I want to say that I remember a Scripture that refers to that. There is also another that refers to the fact that the law was given not as something that we should strive for but to convince us of our unworthiness. We were condemned in the first Adam and were guilty of trespassing against the law at birth.
The second Adam, Jesus, of whom we were still unworthy offered himself as a perfect sacrifice fulfilling all of the law and purchasing us from the bonds of the first Adam. This gift is offered to us by grace and only be received by grace through faith. The second Adam, however did not come to abolish the law but that the law through Him might be fulfilled.
All that being said to say that, Salvation is a gift of God and there is nothing we can do to earn it. We only need to receive it and by receiving His gift we receive His righteousness.
tim,
dat's about it...i would only clarify one thing i said about the 3rd purpose of the law..in our sanctification we can look to the law, since it is written on our hearts, as to where we are in our sanctification. imho. The written code has no power in itself to sanctify us...it just shows us where we fail.
tim,
an example of that: when we go to a brother or sister who maybe we lied to...we make it right...how do we know what we did was sin? God's moral law written on our hearts. The Spirit convicts us that we've sinned. Make sense?
allofgrace,
True enough. One other thing that I was thinking about if we are in His righteousness then we are perfect in the law. The struggle is that we know that we are not perfect in the law and it is hard for us to accept in our minds His righteousness. When you really think about it, it is awesome what He has done for us. We will enter into His kingdom because of His righteousness that He has bestowed on us. AWESOME!
AOG,
AOG:It is my understanding from scripture that it is the Spirit who illumines the truth of scripture to the heart. In order to properly teach grace I believe the law must also be preached.
Reply: I agree 100%. I believe the Spirit convicts us of the Law's truth and enhances the depth of our relationship with Him.
Again, I am confused about the exact formula for a church. Some congregations are more mature than others. I personally get upset in PD churches for their lack of salt. I want Sin to be called Sin. Sometimes what is not said in words is somehow communicated by His grace. Just because I am getting upset for my own personal reasons does not mean someone else is not in Communion with Him. Do you know what I mean?
Mark
fedupatbbc,
I wish I was as calm as you. I am a lot calmer now than I was two hours ago. I pray this is not true. All the same, my children are staying home until I know what is going on at Bellevue.
telos,
I agree...law without grace is legalism...grace without law is license or antinomianism.
telos,
I agree with the preaching of sin. No doubt about it. It is in the Word. I think that believers are convicted by the Spirit through the Word, through Preaching, and thorugh the Holy Spirit Himself and in enumerable other ways. God has allowed Himself the ability to convict men of sin by the very forces of nature alone.
telos,
Also...Jesus' preaching should be our example...he always confronted sin..called it what it was...the Pharisees always tried to trip Him up on points of law..but he didn't abrogate the law...he always went straight to the spirit of the law...then he rightly called them a brood of vipers, whitewashed tombs, etc.
tim,
exactly..Rom. 1 tells us that God has revealed enough of Himself in the natural order..His divine nature and Godhead..so that man is without excuse.
allofgrace,
That last post made me think about our church. Beautiful exterior. Immaculate landscaping and gardening. But on the inside the septic pipes have burst.
The 10:56 post that is
tim,
I'm afraid that's the state of many churches in our time.
Mom2Four -
I know very little but email me please - your concerns are justified.
It seems today's philosophy of church is nickels and noses, buildings and programs...but little real substance.
allofgrace,
I know that this existed within our church before now, because I had seen the evidence before, but it seems to be at its worst at the moment.
The pathetic thing is that the sewage is pouring into the church and so many refuse to notice it. They see no need to repair the damage or fix the problem. As a matter of fact the biggest problem that the see are the people pointing and telling them that there is raw sewage flooding the church. The answer seems to be that we need to go find a sewage free church and that they are fine with the bursted pipes.
Tim, AOG,
I agree with the teaching of law. I agree so deeply. But it is the application that seems too black and white. Jesus also taught in parable. These parables were not laden in law - the law became apparent through the spirit. Jesus also said he who has not sinned may cast the first stone. Sometimes I think our churches throw the law like a rock rather than taking their time to understand the wounded.
tim,
Sadly, I have to agree with you.
telos,
I agree...you can't preach straight law without grace..at the same time...we can only obey God by the Spirit.."...for it is God who works in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure."
Jesus summed the law up for us...love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength...and love our neighbor as ourselves. This sums up the moral law..the decalogue tells us how to relate to God and our fellow man...the Spirit works that out in us as we keep in step with the Spirit.
informedatbbc
I have young children also, if it is of that nature, with children involved I would like to know. I can;t seem to find your email on the profile
telos,
I believe in order to preach the law like you are talking about requires a truly anointed preacher. Dr. Rogers was a preacher that was anointed by God to preach in that manner. He could convict with such power and yet do it so tenderly. Perhaps this is the way that we should speak the truth in love. I don't know, but I know that he had the ability to do it.
tim,
I agree. I remember something he once said in a sermon...When God saved you..he didn't fix you where you couldn't sin...He fixed you where you could no longer be happy in it.
Tim,
I've found that it's much easier for a preacher or teacher to teach the law if he or she is living a Christ centered, Christ filled life. The Holy Spirit freely speaks through them because there isn't as much hinderance. The bible warns us of false teachers who speak good things but don't live them. Give me a simple, humble, God loving, God fearing, God honoring preacher, seminary trained or not any day over a slick mister behind the pulpit that loves money, power, and has a lot of degrees behind his name.
flatfoot
my profile is updated - sorry for the mistake. Feel free to send an email
Tim,
I could not agree more about Dr. Rogers. I wrote to Josh about this on the other thread.
I think that Dr. Rogers provided a lens for many of us to look through. I think it will take some time for those with this wisdom to resolve the issues today.
Mark
swtt,
You are right...all that alphabet soup beside someone's name don't mean much without love for God and love for others.
I'm headed on to bed.
Before I get out of here I want to ask one last thing. I went by the bank atm machine earlier this evening. Does it seem wierd to anyone other than me that the buttons on the drive up teller would be in braile? I just drew a picture in my mind of why it would need to be that way. Are they expecting Stevie Wonder to drive up to make a withdrawl or what?
imformed, email sent
tim,
haha...go to WTB's blog..there's a post there about something like that...I agree..seems a little strange for a drive up atm.
tim, telos, swtt, all,
I'm off too. I've enjoyed the conversation gentlemen. Blessings.
Tim,
Have a great night! Thanks for your thoughts minus the ATM.
AOG,
Peace
informed, did you receive my email?
Telos: Sometimes I think our churches throw the law like a rock rather than taking their time to understand the wounded.
Absolutely. Wounded people are told they aren't filled with the Spirit, because if they were, then they would be experiencing the fruit of joy. Basically, they're told that something is wrong with them that they should fix, just pull themselves up out of their own pit and be ok. We as a church body generally treat the wounded as Job's "friends" treated him, with prescriptions and accusations. So, instead of loving and helping the wounded to be healed and made whole, instead of leading the wounded to the Healer, we tell them to just believe, do more, trust more, work harder, have more faith, just be better.
The same grace that saves us is the grace that keeps us.
Even so, come Lord Jesus
From Gardendale City Forum
2108. Gaines at Bellevue
by bryantboy, 12/8/06 18:07 ET
One of you said "The reason he is having trouble there now is because he is preaching straight from the Word and that bothers a lot of people."
You must not know anything about Bellevue and you know little about Steve Gaines. Bellevue Baptist Church had the most outstanding preacher I have ever heard--Dr. Adrian Rogers. I have listened to him on the radio and watched him on television for years. Those people in Memphis heard the Word preached like no other congregation in America for 30 years. It was either Billy Graham or Dr. Dobson who called Adrian Rogers the best preacher since the Apostle Paul, high praise from either of those men.
Steve Gaines' problems have nothing to do with preaching the Word, people at Bellevue expect nothing less. Steve Gaines problem is Steve Gaines.
Some people only knew Steve based on his sermons. I am a deacon at GFBC and I knew the real Steve Gaines. I have read what is going on in Memphis. All I can say is God help them and I am not surprised. Many at GFBC know the truth about Steve and they are no more surprised than I am. Anyone remember what he did to our minister of music?
Steve believes in checking tithes. I want to clear that up for you. Nevermind giving is between the giver and God. To Steve it's between the giver, God, and Gaines.
I've talked to a cousin at Belleuve and it looks like Steve caught a tiger by the tail this time. He said they've got some godly men who won't back down and knuckle under. They know their Bibles too. He may not make it.
Gardendalian, I don't know if you're bryantboy or not, but if you are, Thank you. If you're not, thank you for re-posting his post.
WestTNsaid:
Catherine Herring is featured in the Singing Christmas Tree. Is she a member of BBC?
Then Lwood said:
Someone asked Who is Catherine Herring????She is featured in the Singing Christmas Tree......WHO IS SHE????Anyone??????
My response: Why exactly is this being discussed here? She is a child, why are we dragging her into all of this? That doesn't make much sense to me.
Here's some info for you: Even though she is a member, I believe, you don't have to be a member of BBC to participate in the Singing Christmas Tree. You just have to be a member of the choir. So again, I ask, why does she even matter to this forum?
ace...
I did not ask anyting about the child and I have no qualms about the child in question performing in the SCT, as long as she is a member. I am grateful that we have children who are talented and willing to participate. These productions are a blessing to many and a wonderful witness to our community, so don't go there about me disapproving anything about the SCT The participants put in many hard hours and the youth involved have always suffered because of the timing of the production because it is ALWAYS at EXAM time.
My question to you is this - You are saying that we have non-members in the choir? How & when did that happen?
ace,
WTB just asked because his wife and daughter had gone to the SCT and didn't know who she was, and didn't recognize her...nobody was thrashing her...it was an innocent question.
Ace,
This forum is about Bellevue, that is why she matters to this forum. I don't care who you are, you have no right or ability to control what we discuss or what we think. If you don't like it, don't read it. Also, I thought you guys were under orders to stay away from the forum.
Not that it is any of your business whatsoever, the question was asked because my wife found her Friday night performance so outstanding. We've not heard her sing before and wondered why. Do you have a problem with that?
It's hardly surprising my question made no sense because you have proven yourself incapable of understanding a lot of things.
To steal a line from Jack Nicholson, "Go sell crazy someplace else."
Mom4 said..to ace ... so don't go there about me disapproving anything about the SCT The participants put
Mom, Ace cannot help himself, it's his nature to attack the questioner and forget the sustance the question.Refer to the blog site http://www.savingbellevue.com/abusive.htm
You will, see the playbook used by Ace,hisservent and the rest of the Bellevue leadership
MOM4,
Do you think they will make the non-Bellevue members tithe in order to participate in the music program?
Depends on how close the connection is ,they may be even paid to perform.
I have read through this alleged letter from Mr. Taylor to the deacon body and am very disturbed by it. Assuming it is a letter from him, I make the following comments:
1. The author appears to set up an either/or situation regarding the allegations which I do not think is adequate to describe the great swirl of controversial issues that remain unresolved and unanswered. "Rehash those things that have been proven false or the Pastor has asked forgiveness for."
2. I think a rally of all deacons in the worship service would be a carnal and political act that springs from a partisan spirit. Such a spirit will always engender strife. I am glad that Pastor Gaines did not accept this offer but do wish he had advised Mr. Taylor that such displays would exacerbate the apparent divisions within our local body. (Mr. Taylor’s letter stated that Pastor Gaines did not want to express an opinion.) I would hope that our leadership would want to be equally desirous of showing love and support to all members, irrespective of their individual opinions of Dr. Gaines.
3. I think that the appropriate means for the deacon body to show support for the Pastor would be to set forth a meaningful resolution to exonerate the Pastor. Such a resolution would address
a. the nature of the allegations;
b. the scriptural means of investigation and clearance of alleged improprieties;
c. any external auditing ; and
d. the deacon body’s review and acceptance of 3b. and 3c.
Such a resolution from our deacons would both show love and support to the Pastor as well as demonstrate the willingness to address concerns through investigation of alleged improprieties and appearances of impropriety.
4. I look forward to a future church business meeting for the opportunity to express these sentiments in a different public forum. For now, this forum will suffice.
Unless I'm mistaken, I think some churches have taken to hiring professional musicians and singers. Sounds kind of strange, but I think I remember reading an article about that somewhere.
At the rate members are leaving this church, it may become necessary to hire someone.
How much does a rock band cost anyawy?
Allofgrace,
Many churches across the country are doing that. Hope Presbyterian on Walnut Grove, a Willow Creek/Saddleback type church, has several professional musicians. Some have been known to perform in Beale Street bars on Saturday night and then perform again on Sunday morning at Hope.
WTB,
Why does that not surprise me? I guess professional worshipers are next.
Some places hire professional mourners for funerals - go figure that one!
How about a sign that tells the audience excuse me worshipers when to stand,clap ect.
From what I understand about Hope...it's probably not much of a stretch between Beale St and Sunday morning worship. jmho
A story - that's true btw - (not related to the SCT because I have not seen it yet this year)
A friend visited all the way from Houston a few years back, just to see the 4th of July fireworks and concert. The orchestra played the theme from "Star Wars" & other songs from the latest and greatest the world could offer. Our friend was truly disappointed. He said that he could have stayed home and listened to the same, he came to BBC because he wanted to get his family away from worldly performances. Although all of the performances for BBC productions are mostly on the up & up, one can't help but see some of the world sliding in and the majority of folks accepting it without question. One in particular I personally remember was the "lounge lizard trumpet bling" with Charles Billingsly and Carter Threlkeld. I guess that is another case of the devil creeping in and fools that we are, we let him. Whatever happened to Gospel Music, or the songs of the founding fathers of our faith who were devout theologians and wrote the music inspired by God? Perhaps the Lord will bring some changes soon before our Godly heritage is tossed by the wayside.
Just in case you guys aren't being tongue-in-cheek ... you don't have to be a BBC member to do the SCT. The daughter of a friend of mine, who is a member of the church of Christ and is home-schooled, participates in the SCT every year as a uniformed member of the marching band. She makes the same time commitment to the Tree performances as do those who are BBC members and loves it. Ironic, huh?
As for Catherine, let's just brag on this tremendously talented young lady, embrace her for using her gifts for the Lord, and pray that she'll always honor Him in the way she uses what He has given her instead of dragging her into all this other stuff. She's a wonderful singer (she has sung more than once, I believe on Sunday nights each time -- I'm surprised you've never heard her before) and she truly loves the Lord and is earnest in her desire to serve Him. And yes, this is first-hand ... I do know her. Magnificent (and very humble) young lady with a big heart and a tremendous vocal gift.
As for paid professional singers, ever heard of Christ Methodist and Calvary Episcopal? They've had paid musicians (singers) for years. It's not a new practice. Bellevue has never done it and doesn't have the need. There are also churches in Memphis where U of M music majors are given an opportunity to log attendance in the sanctuary choir if they are not actively involved in some other off-campus singing outlet. So choirs all over the city have choir members who aren't church members. Oh, the scandal!
mjm,
No scandal, I hope you were just being tongue-in-cheek. Someone just wondered who the young lady was because of her excellent performance.
The questions of non-members being in the choir was based on a statement by "ace". Take it up with him - he said it.
Sorry, Mom4 -- I thought you were the one who asked the question.
My question to you is this - You are saying that we have non-members in the choir? How & when did that happen?
I was just trying to be helpful.
maybejustmaybe said..I was just trying to be helpful.
1:54 PM, December 10, 2006
Sounded more like sarcasm to me
trucker said...
maybejustmaybe said..I was just trying to be helpful.
1:54 PM, December 10, 2006
Sounded more like sarcasm to me
1:57 PM, December 10, 2006
Thanks so much, Trucker.
Now THAT was sarcasm.
This is a continuation of the Law vs Grace discussion from last night. If you're not interested, feel free to scroll on by since it's kinda long.
Tim, Telos, SWTT, and AOG,
(I just reread this post, and let me warn you that I lived up to that accusation from someone yesterday—the one that said I engaged in theological meanderings. Proceed at your own peril. =) )
What a great discussion last night. One of the things that always struck me about Dr Rogers was the way he could do just what the conversation centered on--preach grace and the law simultaneously. And I think the way he did that, simplistic as this sounds, is by just preaching Jesus. That man never saw a point, never read a verse, and never understood a truth that didn't directly link back to Jesus.
Colossians says that in Jesus all things hold together. I think that extends to the law and grace and their commingling. Only in Jesus can we see the fulfillment of the law and the advent of true grace. I know this is elementary to you guys, but it's still worth saying because He is the only point at which the two balance.
If we preach the law for the sake of the law--whether it be leading a good life, realizing sin, etc--then we miss everything. If we preach grace for the sake of grace--God's kindness, love, gentleness, etc--then again we miss the point. If we preach them together there is still a massive gulf between the two. Only when we preach Jesus can the two ever be balanced. Which is a pretty amazing thing since they're so close to being antithetical.
And when we link everything, especially the law, back to Jesus, legalism hopefully fades because we no longer feel a compulsion to do what's contained in the law, but a desire to. Also, there's no longer a desire to force the law on others. Instead we show them the love we have for Jesus--so that they'll love Him too.
I think this makes sense within the context of our relationships here on earth too. We would never expect someone who didn't know our lover to defer to her and honor her as we would. Only in falling in love with someone can such submission happen without a feeling of obligation--it is the submission of the willing. After all, when trying to tell your best friend about the woman you love, do you tell him about the expenses you have to go to for her? The pricy dinners, the dozens of roses, the jewelry? No, he’d think you were dating a spoiled shrew. Instead you’d tell your friend about your lover’s beauty, her character, her kindness, her love of you, her intrinsic value, her innate worth. First hearing this, your friend wouldn’t flinch if you told him the lengths and expenses you’d go to for your lover. We understand this, yet we still want to ram the law down people’s throats without first introducing them to our Lover, the one for whose sake we submit ourselves to the law.
Or put differently, in relationships with people and God, it is better to be persuaded to submit than coerced to submit. And persuasion to submit can only come if one is in love with the persuader and object of submission. Likewise, we submit to God because we love Him, not because he might zap us.
All of that said, it seems to me that so often in our pulpits we insist people keep the law while never bothering to introduce them to Jesus. Of course we give invitations. But we're also fond of forcing our moral code on the lost, hoping that we can coerce them into doing right. While that handily short-cuts the whole inconvenience of getting them saved, it never really works and is the equivalent, as Dr Rogers used to say, of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. It’s no wonder then those who grow up under spiritual tyranny of that sort become legalists and Pharisees.
Dr Rogers was so wise and so in love with Jesus that he never tried to force the law on anyone. All he wanted to do was introduce us to his lover—to Jesus. He knew if we could just catch a glimpse of Him, then we would, like great romantics, cast our last treasure into the sea for that love.
I miss Dr Rogers.
MJM I guess I saw a little sarcasm in you with the following post.
So choirs all over the city have choir members who aren't church members. Oh, the scandal!
1:46 PM, December 10, 2006
If you said the above in kindness I will apologise.
Custos,
I remember Dr. Rogers making this statement that I've found myself using over the years.
I sin all I want to. The more I have of Jesus, the less I want to sin.
Gotta run to pay some visits. Look forward to resuming later.
Yes, trucker I absolutely said that as tongue-in-cheek. No need to apologize. It was also an attempt, with a little humor, to be somewhat informative about a subject that was broached that I know a little factual information that was worth contributing. But let me make this clear -- NOT tongue-in-cheek -- choir members should be those who are there because God has gifted them with musical ability, not because man is gifting them with a check. Although many of our great composers were paid church musicians and much great music came from them, I would rather know that people who sing in the choir at my church are singing to the Lord because they LOVE him, wouldn't you? Thank God, He has put enough talented folks at BBC to populate the choir without having to resort to such practices. For that, I'm very thankful.
SWTT,
I used that Adrianism the other day when God gave me an opportunity to witness to a fellow. Good stuff!
Josh
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