This was placed in the Suggestion Box by "prayerwarrior." I think it deserves top billing.
"I exhort therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men;" I Timothy 2:1
The following prayer guide would be wonderful to use at such a time as this as we pray for Bellevue:
PRAYER FOR DIFFICULT SITUATIONS
Acknowledge God's sovereignty and praise Him.
Thank Him for guidance and the opportunity to promote healing.
What is God wanting to teach through the situation?
Ask God:
1) For the Holy Spirit to convict those who have done wrong.
2) To have the right words and attitude when talking with those involved.
3) To give you His love for the person(s) involved.
4) For humility in dealing with the problem.
5) For all involved to know the truth.
6) How to handle the situation His way and the courage to do it.
Pray against:
Blindness to sin
Denial
Defensiveness
Divisiveness
Distortion of the truth
Disunity among believers
Unwillingness to hear truth or inaccurate hearing
Cold/closed/hard hearts
Fear
Lying
Destructive protectiveness
Stubborness
Rationalization
May we all remember that prayer is the key to everything in life. Pray that God grant us strength and wisdom in this and every situation.
Another prayer to consider, this one from "1cor13"...
Dear God help us to be kind, tenderhearted, and loving with those whom we disagree with (Ephesians 4:32). Help us to be merciful with those who have wronged us (Matthew 5:7), for we know that we all deserve hell, but thankfully you don't give us what we deserve in Jesus Christ. (Romans 6:23) Help us to see clearly our own sin in a disagreement (Matthew 7:1-2), especially when passions stir our flesh. Guard our conversation that it be filled with grace and edifying to the body of Christ. (Ephesians 4:29) Keep us from demanding justice when we ourselves need new mercies each day. (Matthew 18:30) Help us to be patient with each other as you have been infinitely patient with us. Help us to not keep a record of wrongs (I Corinthians 13), as a gracious expression of love. Dear Lord, keep our disagreements with people from turning to hatred of them. (I John 3:14) For we know that Christ loves sinners so much that he shed his blood for them.
Here is my prayer:
ReplyDeleteThat the people of this forum would see the error of their ways and get back into right fellowship with God and His church.
Now you are advocating "withholding tithes" and also denying the very scriptural principles that God used to make Bellevue what it once was! Dr G may have made some mistakes but you guys are beyond the mistakes - this is evil!
Winning Truth w/Tim Guthrie said...
ReplyDeleteHere is my prayer:
That the people of this forum would see the error of their ways and get back into right fellowship with God and His church.
Now you are advocating "withholding tithes" and also denying the very scriptural principles that God used to make Bellevue what it once was! Dr G may have made some mistakes but you guys are beyond the mistakes - this is evil!
Sir, I don't know you..and I don't mean this personally...but if you think this is evil...then stop coming on here and adding fuel to the fire. Unless I'm mistaken...don't you already have a flock to tend to?
I do! I was emailed by one of your members and was simply stating that many are trying to understand why this has gone public and since it has, is it not open to comment. I plead again, this is really over the line.
ReplyDeleteBrother Guthrie,
ReplyDeleteI would appreciate it if you could explain the difference between the debates we are having here and the many blogs of pastors, seminary professors, and other denominational leaders? We are debating problems within our congregation. Many of the other blogs debate problems within the SBC and within evangelicalism. What is the real difference? We are one universal church. They both "air dirty laundry" for the world to see. I have followed some nasty debates among SBC leaders. I've seen them get very personal. Are the elites the only ones entitled to debate? Is the distinction that since we are debating congregational issues we are evil and since they are professionals debating broader points they are right?
What Scriptural principle are we denying?
Do you think it is Scriptural for the pastor to force all leaders to sign a Covenant? Do you think it is Scriptural for the pastor to have the tithing records verified for all church leaders, including soloists?
I would never say everything that has been said here was right. I belive unfounded attacks on our pastor are wrong, but that is not all that is happening on this site. We have debated legitimate doctrinal issues, as do the pastors on their blogs. What is interesting is the angriest and most divisive posts come from the pastor's defenders. I'm not anti-Dr. Gaines nor am I anti-Bellevue. I just want the real truth about what has happened and where Dr. Gaines plans on taking us. If we are moving toward the Willow Creek or Saddleback model, then I need to find a a new church.
One problem with the Conservative Resurgence is that those of us left in the Convention take the Bible seriously. If we believe our church is not in accordance with the Scripture we want to know it and we want it corrected immediately.
Mr. Guthrie,
ReplyDeleteI don't know who you are. I take it you're a pastor or have a ministry of some kind. The reason this has "gone public" is that Dr. Gaines refused to handle a situation privately according to Matthew 18 with the individuals involved. That was the beginning. Since then we've seen nothing but a pattern of stonewalling and half-truths from him and the staff. I don't agree with every single thing the savingbellevue site has published, but neither I nor this site is affiliated with that site other than through mutual links on our pages. If church members want to come here to discuss these topics in a civil manner, that is their privilege. Calling your fellow Christians "evil" or "Hezbollah" isn't exactly Christ-like. Or are those just "mistakes"?
I pray (you have no idea how much) that the truth will come out and that we can have reconciliation at Bellevue, but until Dr. Gaines is willing to be open and accountable, I don't see that happening. This never should have gotten this far, but we are not "evil" for asking questions that our leadership should be willing to answer truthfully. The methods that worked when Dr. Rogers was here are not working now.
Your comments are welcome here if you'll refrain from name-calling and false accusations. No one I've heard has advocated withholding tithes. Some of us have chosen to temporarily send our tithes to other churches or ministries. Of course, we now know that Dr. Gaines has in the past, and may still be, directing his staff to "check" on the tithing habits of all those in leadership positions, from deacons to Sunday School teachers to soloists to ushers, so I don't suppose some of us will be considered for leadership roles in the near future, but if my ability to hold a position at Bellevue is dependent upon the thickness of my wallet, then maybe I am in the wrong church. I seriously doubt Dr. Rogers used this same standard, but frankly, I don't know what to believe any more. I think a lot of the problems we're seeing come to light today had their origins with some of the senior staff before Steve Gaines ever came here. Dr. Rogers delegated a lot of authority the last few years he was here, perhaps too much authority, to a group of men who have been accused, along with Dr. Gaines, of taking advantage of their newly-found authority. Whether any wrongdoing actually took place is what the people who claim to have proof have been trying to get to the truth of for months now.
I don't think there's anything Dr. Gaines might have done that if he asked forgiveness and truly repented, then implemented the changes necessary for future transparency and accountability, that we wouldn't forgive him and eagerly move on. I think a lot of the problem now is that a lot of us don't feel the love that a pastor should have for his flock. What are we to think when he mocks us and demeans us in front of a sister congregation? What about when he uses the pulpit to bully those who have simply asked legitimate questions? I urge you to go to www.bellevue.org and listen to Dr. Gaines' sermons from the evenings of 9/24 and 10/8. On the evening of 10/22 he said those who question his authority might as well go home, draw a pentagram on the floor, and burn candles. In other words, he compared those who dare disagree with him or question him with Satan worshippers! And in his 10/8 morning sermon he compared those who question "Biblical authority" to those who practice witchcraft. On 9/24 he compared himself to Paul and the "rebellious ones" as "the adversaries."
And what makes you think "the people of this forum," who if you've read very many of the thread comments you would have seen are of a range of different opinions, are erring in their ways? After all, by commenting here, you're one of the "people of this forum," too! Neither I nor anyone else is running this forum or "owns" it. It is here for the members of Bellevue and other concerned people to share their ideas and concerns.
I see that "i love my church" has also responded to you, and s/he has some valid questions for you.
"Allofgrace" made a good point, too. Please don't add fuel to the fire.
NASS
ilmc,
ReplyDeleteYou took the words right out of my mouth. Good points.
straining gnats wrote: "How did Mark Sharpe handle this Biblically (according to Matthew 18)? By taking 3 other people with him to question the pastor on issues of PREFERENCE? When Mark Sharpe first confronted the pastor, it was over matters of PREFERENCE, NOT SIN."
ReplyDeleteWell, I think he tried to handle it according to Matthew 18.
How do you presume to know that it was "preference" over "sin"? As I heard Mark Sharpe explain, he asked for a meeting with Dr. Gaines along with certain protections in place for all involved to confront him over alleged financial improprieties that some staff members (some current, some former) had confided in him. There have been more things come to light since, but the financial improprieties were the original (at least as I understood him to say). Is that the definition of "preference" as opposed to "sin"? I would think of "preference" as something more like not liking the music or the color of the carpet in the sanctuary.
You're saying "we've" sinned. I think we've ALL sinned, sir/madam. I know of no one who hasn't except the One who came to save us.
After an individual has gone to another individual, then taken 2 or 3 witnesses with him, if the offender refuses to meet with him, Matthew 18 then says to take the matter before the church. In this day and age, and in a congregation the size of Bellevue, the internet was the most readily available way to do that. I'm not saying it was the only way, or the best way, but it's worked pretty well, I think. I would like to see it closed by password protection to members of the congregation, but I don't know how to do that.
josh tucker,
ReplyDeleteI just answered this in the "Financial" thread, but I'll repeat it here.
Mark Sharpe has stated that there are at least two witnesses, possibly more, who have been willing to meet with Dr. Gaines if the "proper protections" are in place. I am not privy to just what all those "protections" entail, but I understand it has to do with the witnesses requesting assurances of job protection and possibly even the presence of legal counsel and/or one or more disinterested third parties. So far their requests have been denied. Mark Sharpe has spoken of some of this in his interview with Josh Manning on Mr. Manning's blog (link in sidebar). Whether Mr. Sharpe has "seen these things with his own eyes," I don't know, but he claims to have "heard them with his own ears" from the parties who can provide the written evidence. Either way, he says he's certain there have been improprieties, and this is what needs to be addressed.
What possible reason could he or the others have for making these claims if there isn't some truth to them?
NASS
Alvin,
ReplyDeleteWell, I've been trying! I'm not computer illiterate, but I think I was born about 15 years too soon for all this stuff. I've looked up the "anchor link" thing, and while I sort of understand what it is, I don't understand how to apply it here. There are plug-ins available for blogging software, but the free blogging sites like Blogger.com and WordPress.com don't allow the use of plug-ins. The only thing I can do with Blogger.com is make a list of e-mail addresses of people who can have access to the site. This presents two problems. Not that I care who's who, but this removes the relative anonymity of those who wish to remain anonymous (unless they want to use an alternate e-mail address to log in), and it prevents new readers from ever seeing the site. What I have done is turn off adding the blog to the Blogger.com listings which may help cut down on the "external" traffic some, but otherwise, I've run out of ideas. However, if anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears, uh... eyes.
Josh,
ReplyDeleteI posted on the other thread as well.
This is way beyond Mark Sharpe at this point. Here is my post:
We are witnesses to the 9/24 meeting. Most of us were open to receive the truth. But we saw with our eyes and heard with our ears. The fence was not "ity bity" and nothing about anything that has happened is the least bit funny. When Steve Gaines stood behind the pulpit and made light of breaking the law, repeatedly sends out his 'yes men' to do his dirty work, laughs in the pulpits of other churches about how he pulled the wool over our eyes (not all of us were fooled) we see and we hear. We are witnesses and we are many.
josh tucker wrote: "Is this not a correct interpretation of this verse with regard to our situation at Bellevue?"
ReplyDeleteI don't think it is, but honestly I'm too tired tonight to compose a well thought out response. For now, I'll leave that up to someone else, perhaps one of our resident "amateur theologians," and get back to you later. Have a restful evening.
Josh,
ReplyDeleteI can still pull it together enough tonight to say that mom4 is right. This has mushroomed into something a lot bigger because of all the stonewalling on the part of Dr. Gaines and his actions since. I realize that based upon your interpretation of I Timothy that you don't think anyone should ever question a pastor (at least I think that's what you're saying), but I don't interpret it that way. I've asked before and will ask it again... just how much wrongdoing by a pastor (and I'm referring to any pastor) is a congregation expected to overlook? Where's the proverbial "line in the sand"?
straining gnats wrote: "Mark Sharpe NEVER DID that... he chose rather to overshoot that by taking three other people with him."
ReplyDeleteTo the contrary, I have heard Mark Sharpe say that he did indeed first meet with Dr. Gaines alone only to be quickly dismissed.
truthhunter makes a good point,
ReplyDeletePerhaps Matt.18 was followed correctly...perhaps not..point is..these things are now out there..and the elephant is now in the living room with us..something has to be done to put this to rest. I don't think ignoring it or sweeping it under the rug will make it go away..it may for a while...but rest assured it will come back again..sooner or later. The longer this goes on..the more it will fester.
It is understandable to not want the world to see the dirty laundry of our church family. However, I believe it might benefit others to read what is posted here. It is unlikely that a person would spend time wading through these issues if he/she were not interested in matters of the heart. It is important to show Memphis, the Southern Baptist Convention, and the world that Bellevue Baptist Church will still take a stand for truth. She may be soiled, tattered, discouraged, and very weary, but she is still sending out the 'light and truth.'
ReplyDelete2 Corinthians 13:5-8
"Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Know ye not yourselves how Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are discredited? But I trust that ye shall know that we are not discredited. Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we appear as discredited. For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth."
A Sour Note in the Choir
ReplyDeleteJust in looking at the list of things to pray about, confirms that there is little to no love, or grace, or maturity in this forum.
In this prayer list, what I'm seeing is, "WE NEED TO PRAY FOR THOSE SINNERS AND HERE IS THE LIST OF THE SINS THAT THEY ARE DOING. DEAR GOD SAVE US FROM THOSE SINNERS, SO THAT WE CAN WIN."
Perhaps I should be more generous, but when I see a web site designed for the purpose preaching to the choir, and the choir preaching to each other, I think balance is called for.
If I'm wrong abount my interpretation, I apologize. But can I then assume that in this prayer list you are asking, that God would keep YOU from those things?
If not, this list really is simply a catelogue of what you think the sins of those whom you disagree with are? There's nothing like using a prayer list to call out other people's sins and get one more dig in.
How about this for a prayer?
Dear God help us to be kind, tenderhearted, and loving with those whom we disagree with (Eph. 4:32). Help us to be merciful with those who have wronged us(Matth. 5:7), for we know that we all deserve hell, but thankfully you don't give us what we deserve in Jesus Christ. (romans 6:23) Help us to see clearly our own sin in a disagreement (Matth. 7:1-2), especially when passions stir our flesh. Guard our conversation that it be filled with grace and edifying to the body of Christ. (Eph. 4:29) Keep us from demanding justice when we ourselves need new mercies each day. (Matt. 18:30) Help us to be patient with each other as you have been infinitely patient with us. Help us to not keep a record of wrongs (1 Cor. 13), as a gracious expression of love. Dear Lord, keep our disagreements with people from turning to hatred of them.(1John 3:14) For we know that Christ loves sinners so much that he shed his blood for them.
For the best resouces on conflict. www.peacemaker.net
If you're response to this is, "Why don't they be more loving?" You've missed the point. Pray for God to change you first, before praying for God to change others.
Blessings!
Josh,
ReplyDeleteAs far as the allegations you're referring to..I and I'm sure many others have not made any judgements about those things...seeing that...as you pointed out...no evidence has been presented as yet. For me personally, those are on the back burner, since I wasn't present or made privy to any pertinent facts. In a little over a half century of living now, I've learned that there are always 2 sides to every story..and somewhere in the middle lies the truth. My hope is that this all turns out to be a matter of these things being misunderstood or misconstrued. My "elephant in the living room" analogy is stating the obvious...it's a little difficult to ignore something that big in your living room. Honestly I don't quite understand why the facts can't just be laid out on the table so this can be cleared up..perhaps in time I will. I can only speak for myself on this..but here's the position I feel I'm in...I don't know anyone in leadership personally..pastor, deacons, committee members etc...neither do I know Mr. Sharpe personally...I'm going on the assumption that all parties are of unimpeachable character. I can only go on what IS observable...one of those things is that I feel parties on both sides of the issue are asking me to just take their word for it without any conclusive proof one way or the other..it's an unenviable and unpleasant position to be in. The major concern I have at the moment...since as I said..it's what IS observable...is the seeming change in direction of the church. We were told at the beginning that "we don't need any church growth gurus"..good enough..but now are in place the very elements of the philosophies of those gurus. Right in line with the Warren tool box...now I don't know about you..but that raises a question for me...if we don't need the gurus...why do we need their "tools". I've watched over the last several years how churches have jumped on the bandwagon of about every "next big thing". First it was John Maxwell, and his philosophy of doing church...then George Barna who told us we better start marketing the church like corporate America...now it's Hybels/Warren--Willow Creek/Saddleback..and throw in a little Prayer of Jabez and the "worship wars" for good measure..good grief...do we really need all these fads? Before the first faddish program or book gets worked through the next grand idea is already coming down the pike. Call me crazy if you want, but it ain't passin the smell test for me. I still say it's a slippery slope that no church needs to get on..you can say it's not PDC..but a rose by any other name is still a rose.
Thanks for your thoughts and concerns Josh.
1cor13 wrote:
ReplyDelete"Just in looking at the list of things to pray about, confirms that there is little to no love, or grace, or maturity in this forum.
"In this prayer list, what I'm seeing is, 'WE NEED TO PRAY FOR THOSE SINNERS AND HERE IS THE LIST OF THE SINS THAT THEY ARE DOING. DEAR GOD SAVE US FROM THOSE SINNERS, SO THAT WE CAN WIN.'"
This prayer was left in the suggestion box by someone with the screen name "prayerwarrior," and I thought it would be good if everyone could see it. I don't know who "prayerwarrior" is, nor do I know what his (or her) opinion of any of this is, as to my knowledge, s/he hasn't left any other comments. I don't know PW's heart, nor do you, but I took those words to my heart alone. They were a blessing to me, and I thought someone else might appreciate them as well. I think you're reading something into them that just isn't there.
"Perhaps I should be more generous, but when I see a web site designed for the purpose preaching to the choir, and the choir preaching to each other, I think balance is called for."
This is an open forum for people of all opinions to discuss in a civil manner the issues facing BBC at this time. I do have opinions about a lot of these issues, and frankly I'm just as entitled to my opinions as you are to yours, but in choosing topics I've always tried to pose general questions for people to use in framing their discussions. When I've left comments reflecting my personal opinion, I've always tried to sign those with my original screen name, "NASS." (I may have forgotten to add that a time or so, but I have tried.) Occasionally I have posted comments as the moderator relating to the forum itself, but I try to not interject my personal opinions about BBC issues into those posts. Sometimes the line between the two becomes muddled, but I'm doing the best I can. This forum was not, as you claimed, designed to "preach to the choir." It's for everyone. If you don't think it's "fair and balanced" enough, perhaps you'd like to consider starting a forum of your own. Regardless, you're still welcome here.
"If I'm wrong abount my interpretation, I apologize."
You are, and thank you. Apology graciously accepted.
"But can I then assume that in this prayer list you are asking, that God would keep YOU from those things?"
Absolutely. That is a correct assumption. I pray daily that God would keep ME from those things. What anyone else prays for is his business alone.
"There's nothing like using a prayer list to call out other people's sins and get one more dig in."
As we're reminded in Luke 18:10-14.
"How about this for a prayer?"
It's worthy of consideration, and I've added it to the original topic. Thank you.
Josh,
ReplyDeleteI hope you understood my point about not knowing any of the parties personally to mean that I'm operating under the assumption that they're all of unimpeachable character..therein lies my difficulty in this. No doubt I've been disappointed by a few things...I don't hide that fact..but I'm not a hateful person...nor do I desire to be..in fact I know from experience God just won't allow that in his children..he'll either soften your heart or tan your hide..but he won't allow it. At this point my main concern is still the direction of the church..I've taken a "wait and see" position on that. I appreciate your concern and the loving manner in which you express it.
sc,
ReplyDeleteWhoa there, big fella (or non-fella)! You're confusing me, NBBCOF (aka NASS), with "straining gnats" who has made the claim that Mark Sharpe never went to Steve Gaines privately. I never said any such thing. I pointed out to "straining gnats" (whom, it just occurred to me, has the initials "S.G.") that Mark Sharpe did indeed meet privately with Dr. Gaines first. And as you pointed out, on more than one occasion.
The comments you addressed from 10/29 at 10:46 p.m. were left by "straining gnats." They were simply addressed to me.
So please give credit where credit is due and admonish "gnats" if you want, but as I said, I'm in 100% agreement with you!
Thanks,
NBBCOF
No problem, sc. With all the comments here it's an understandable mistake. I just wanted you to give credit where credit's due and didn't want someone to think I'd made that statement. Thanks. Apology accepted!
ReplyDeletejunior 5432,
ReplyDeleteYour last comment, in its entirety, has been moved to the "New Financial Thread." Please check there if you wish to continue that discussion.
NBBCOF