This week Bellevue deacons, some members of the choir, members of Joe Jernigan's class, and perhaps others received this anonymous letter.While I think if you're going to send a letter to someone by mail you should have the courage to sign your name, that's really not the issue here. I have no idea at all who wrote it. I can't even guess based upon the writing style, and besides, it's likely someone I don't know. But instead of criticizing the author for not signing his or her name or for sending it in the first place, why not critique the content of the letter itself? As someone so appropriately pointed out, we don't know who wrote the book of Hebrews either, but that doesn't diminish the value of what it says.
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What a GREAT LETTER!
I wish I could take credit for it.
Folks sure do get stirred up when faced with a truth they don't like - especially when it requires them to take action or stand for what is right. Kind of kills that delusion of warm and fuzzy christianity -you know, the kind that provoked RELIGIOUS LEADERS to send the Lord Himself to a cruel cross?
And the email Jim received from an angry recipient reminds me of a few that I received myself some time ago when I endeavored to turn on the light for some who were stumbling about happily in the dark.
Memories.....
Nass,
Altho I don't know the person who administrates the saving BBC website....
I am a truth seeker and he exposes truth.....
I would think we are on the same team.
This in response to Jim's "people"
which was a response to the person critizing Jim or the people of like mind...
actually,I can't remember the term used by the piano person.
Also,
In reading Wade's most recent blog entry concerning the SBC,
there seems to be a definite similarity in the case of the SBC and in the cases of the of the issues at BBC and GBC .
many of the defenders of the wrong going on in the SBC and the 2 churches have money ties.....
or WON"T speak out against what they KNOW is wrong because of money ties....
missions support, salaries, gifts,some kind of funding.
There is a price to pay one way or the other.
the letter....
from the outside looking in, all I can say is that the reverend's inclination to sarcasm was in the first sermon I heard him preach. I held on for a little while in spite of what I had sensed, giving him the benefit of the doubt. I even attempted to encourage my family with 'at least he has a passion for the Gospel.' In hindsight I think he was offered the indulgence of many God-fearing believers who were committed to the ministry of Bellevue and he positively squandered it all! I fear that the judgment for any of us who use scripture to abuse, divide, even control the Body of Christ, will not be pleasant. In my opinion, this letter makes it blatantly obvious what he does. Last year on a Sunday morning he was about 10 minutes into his act and the abuse of scripture was so obvious that I got up and walked out. And I felt good about leaving! Daily life is full of divisiveness, ugliness, negativity, etc. Why would I want to sit under the ministry of anyone who dishes out the same?
I thought the letter was well written, logical, factual, and made convincing points. I am impressed that someone went to the time and expense to "get the word out" and I know God will bless the effort.
Why is SG so hard-hearted that he doesn't respond to the divisiveness he is causing?
Truthseekers: Please set your watches.....countdown 9 by half until next clandestine meeting.
;)
As to the letter being anonymous... I think that was wise. As NASS said, let us debate the content and not get sidetracked by the messenger.
This is the problem we see today. Pastors are to be the messengers of the Word. But the message and the messenger have become one entity. This is VERY dangerous. We have ONE teacher and that is Christ and His Word. (My how we overlook this!)
There were quite a few anonymous tracts written before, during and after the Reformation for very good reason. The content was debated.
I also think of the Federalist Papers. The ideas contained in those papers would never have been debated to fruition if all had known the authors were Hamilton, Madison and John Jay. The focus would have been on the writers and their personal motivation. Not on the arguments presented.
The writer of this letter simply taught scripture in context and related well known facts drawing upon Gaines' own sermons and actions. The writer showed the hypocrisy in Gaines' false and incomplete sermon on unity which was proof texted to fit his personal premise and amass unquestioning followers.
This is offtopic but worth mentioning anyways....
Steve and Donna's gonna fleece the flock again with another roadie to the Holy Land.
Its in the bulletin that is on Bellevue's website.
We must read ALL the Word; spending time in the Word and letting the Word spend time in us.
Knowing the whole gives us unequaled perspective for the parts.
Let's all employ the mind that God gave us when we sit under anyone's teaching.
Ps 1:1-3
1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
I feel compelled to offer a word, appropriately enough, that I once heard from Dr. Rogers and have, admittedly, referenced in my own preaching. Though not quoted word-for-word, it went something like this, dealing with the utter sanctity of Scripture...
On the day I stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, when Jesus asks me about how I handled the Word of God, I'd much prefer hearing from Him, "Adrian, why did you take My Word so literally?" rather than, "Adrian, why did you play games with My Word?"
You, dear friends, being from Bellevue, might have much better recollection of this saying, and may even need to correct my memory. If indeed I am close to accuracy in remembering it, it speaks to the overwhelmingly critical importance of standing firm on the Word, of contending "earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints" (Jude 1:3). What error there is in playing games with Scripture! Let us treat the Word with the very reverence of which God is worthy, refusing to handle it like Silly Putty, which can be bent and manipulated to fit whatever shape we desire.
Gmommy,
In response to your post, I'm reminded of the book Lin recommended that we all read. My husband bought it...it is about the misuse of funds in the SBC/NAMB. It is a great part of what has happened to the churches. Simply put, it is called greed.
Read it if you can. The book is Spending God's Money.
Ima
Let us treat the Word with the very reverence of which God is worthy, refusing to handle it like Silly Putty, which can be bent and manipulated to fit whatever shape we desire.
Brother Michael....
You not only speak the truth but I think you BELIEVE the truth.
I think that because you are willing take the risk... not to proclaim yourself as we have seen too often.
There could be consequences you suffer because you stand for the integrity of God's Word....
especially on the "evil" blog.
But here you stand. Thank you.
Or treating the Word like this:
http://www.spurgeon.org/images/pyromaniac/TeamPyro/e-s_036.jpg
Lin and BroMichael: Both excellent point. Focus on the content not the personality. Handle God's Word with care and precision.
From the letter:
"Dr. Gaines knew in June, 2006. Dr. Gaines did not take action until Paul’s situation had been on the internet for approximately three months."
I'm not aware of this situation being "on the internet" for three months, approximately or not, before SG took action. Does anyone know what the writer is talking about?
Nass,
If I remember correctly, about a month before it was exposed, the initials " PW" were being used in reference to a minister at church that had molested a child.
That's all I can attest to.
SOTL,
It was more like two weeks, and just for the record, David Brown was not the first person to report it to DCS. Others reported it as soon as they learned the minister's name.
OK, I'd like to ask a question that I'll probably want back once I send it. Remember that I am not one of you, only in that I'm not local. My question goes something like this: What spiritual conclusion do you long to see from this episode?
And knowing the answer to that question, I'd further ask, in what Christ-centered, practical ways does that end come to fruition?
And finally (which actually constitutes a third question), what happens if that desired end remains just out of reach, never ordained by the Lord to become reality for you?
The letter. I don't know who wrote the letter either, but he sure did his home work. It takes a lot of research to refute sermon points in this manner. Me thinks this it not the work of a plain old disgruntled church member. BRAVO!!
whoever wrote that letter better keep an eye on their fence - some BBC minister might jump it!
I see my girls were checking on their gmommy while she was out throwing home runs with the blog friends....
or strikes or something close :)
Anyway....
turn your watches off until next meeting.....
good night.
Those meeting minutes JH posted are very telling. They are soaked with SG's arrogance. Two of the men are as humble and careful as can be while dealing with such sensitive questions. But I'm not reading much humbleness from SG. How many times does he put down Pastor Rogers to lift himself up? How many times does he try to avoid dealing with his bad judgment or sin by trying to find fault with the others? It was the old, "I'm not the only one. You do it too, don't you? Please admit that you do so I don't look so bad" defense. Very sad.
Frankly, it almost comes across as hopeless. It's like they are desperately trying reach out to this brother in love but in the end, they are just talking to a brick wall. He refuses to even consider that he may be wrong. He's too busy worrying about motives rather than substance. It's always someone else's fault. 'He told me differently.' 'I thought I heard him say something else.'
Whatever.
Meeting notes SG, RE, MS, ......
a few observations -
1) SG obviously got a 'buy-in' from the pulpit committee about changes in the BBC ministry. Probably a carte blanche.
2) SG made it clear he will not be accountable to any lay person.
3) The clarity and basis for RE and MS meeting with him was extremely shallow and weak. RE kept reassuring SG 'I love ya' which is almost the same as using 'bless his heart' so you can then hit him with a zinger. However, interesting to me that RE and MS both failed to effectively communicate any legitimate concern. Seems that they were more interested in establishing good will.
4) I thot SG effectively challenged the intent of the meeting. He seems to have dominated the tone and direction. And even called into question RE's credibility and conduct from his meeting with MD about the by-laws.
5) Point is, I would give a thumbs up to SG and 5 thumbs down to RE and MS. Pathetic! No wonder the rampage continues.
Seems to me that many posts here are more articulate and make the case effectively.
Amazed: you make a great point. Maybe someone on staff? With access to some addresses? Just thinking out loud....
bromichael
The spiritual conclusion I would like to see would be this: We would ALL repent. We would pass through the refiners fire, God would skim away the dross from our lives, and we would emerge purer, stronger, and more Christ-like. Thus, our beloved church might be restored, and would remain a legacy for future generations.
How would that come about? I see ONE and only ONE way. God would have to intervene.
What if God chooses not to intervene? Bromichael, that is the question before us.
Dr. Rogers used to tell us how an eagle would build her nest on a high cliff. She would feed her babies until they became too big for the nest. Then, one at a time, she would nudge the eaglets out of the nest. She would swoop down and catch them as they fell, and lift them up until they stretched their wings and flew.
Maybe that story applies to this time.
churchmouse
" For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required:" Luke 12:48
eprov, I had the same frustrations. I kept thinking, 'Just say it! Just tell him already!' But at least SG can't accuse them of trying to railroad him. I'm sure he'll try to anyway but this time we can see for ourselves that they were as careful as they could be.
An interesting point. Towards the beginning, SG asks, "Don't you trust me?" HA! What a loaded question. Boy, the indignation. All this while he basically tells MS he doesn't believe his side of the story. And later, he tells them in not so many words that he (SG) doesn't trust them because after all, "I don't know you." I'm just glad they didn't kiss him ring.
" Point is, I would give a thumbs up to SG and 5 thumbs down to RE and MS. "
Just curious, Is your opinion from a world view or a Biblical view?
lin.....
In that setting I don't think one was any greater than the other. From the world view his management approach is capricious and arbitrary and they failed to challenge it. From the Biblical view none of them took positions which were adequately stated. It was mealy mouth and milquetoast and we were 9 months into the experience. My opinion. BTW, no judgment about intentions. I don't question that. Problem is there was nothing substantive.
eprov,
I agree with your assessment. It may have "sounded" different if we could hear the tape, but on paper it's disappointing at best -- from all sides.
On a more positive note..
Craig Parker is the new Church Administrator at Germantown Baptist.
If this is the same Craig Parker, the man of integrity, that used to be at BBC, good for GBC, their gain.
Craig's wife is Selwyn and children Matt & Leah.
He most recently served as Senior Team Leader of Highpoint Church in Memphis, there was no mention of BBC in the bulletin.
Anyone know if this is our previous Craig Parker that was at BBC?
sheepless,
Yes, it is.
A timely joke...
Tithing Pays!!!
Two men crashed in their private plane on a South Pacific Island.
Both survived.
One of the men brushed himself off and then proceeded to run all over the island to see if they had any chance of survival.
When he returned, he rushed up to the other man and screamed, "This island is uninhabited, there is no food, there is no water. We are going to die!"
The other man leaned back against the fuselage of the wrecked plane, folded his arms and responded, "No we're not. I make over $250,000 a week."
The first man grabbed his friend and shook him.
"Listen, we are on an uninhabited island. There is no food, no water. We are going to DIE!"
The other man, unruffled, again responded, "No, I make over $250,000 a week."
Mystified, the first man, taken aback with such an answer again repeated, "For the last time, I'm telling you we ARE doomed. There is NO one else on this island. There is NO food. There is NO water. I repeat, we are going to die a slow death."
Still unfazed, the first man looked the other in the eyes and said, "Do not make me say this again. I make over $250,000 per week, I am a Baptist, and I tithe. MY PASTOR WILL FIND US!"
Eprov,
I’m in total agreement with your observations of the meeting notes. SG came across much as I expected, arrogant and unyielding; however, he certainly gave RE and MS every chance to spell out their grievances.
RE and MS failed miserably to speak forthrightly and present their positions with clarity and boldness in brotherly love. In fact, IMO, there was too much “love” spoken of and a total lack of holy boldness for the truth. They were downright pathetic, in my opinion.
I’ve been away from BBC for a few years now, but if this meeting is in any way representative of the majority of the BBC men, then it is a small wonder to me why the current situation is as it is.
Just my opinion…
sheepless said:
Craig's wife is Selwyn and children Matt & Leah.
Reply: That would be the same Craig Parker.
This would be good for a laugh... if it weren't so eerily true to life. Note the triple IMAGs, the coffee shop, and even the "situation with the hostile goose" in the parking lot. BBC's geese seem harmless enough... don't they?
Mary,
You will not believe this....
I was deliberately NOT posting after reading the meeting notes.
You articulated what I was thinking beautifully and stuck in some bluntness that I was afraid I couldn't get away with....
sometimes I don't know when to quit but you did.
Thank you!
One thing is certain.....SG is an arrogant legend in his own mind.
Another thing SG said very clearly....
BBC is a company to him...similiar to Fed EX.
I secretly wondered while reading if SG was twirling a billy club while talking to these men.
sure sounded like he could be y all the hem hauling and loving him bull.
BUT THEY TRIED.....which is more than many did.
No wonder PP and the ones that think like him are so afraid to let women speak.
It's all about control.
This has NOTHING to do with obedience to scripture or holiness.
PP = Paige Patterson, I assume.
This is a random something from my T4 starved brain.....
I had the absolute priviledge last night to sit down with a man who was actually spiritually mature enough to speak from a repentant heart rather than a puffed up chest.
This man spoke about realizing his sinfulness in a particular area of pride common to many of us.
He was transparent and honest in front of both women and (gasp) men.
He didn't tell us with a quivering lip.
He shared his heart.He spoke with humility.
In a way he was holding himself accountable to his brothers and sisters in Christ.
His openess spoke volumes about his walk with the Lord.
I couldn't help but think.....
God uses the humble to shame the proud.
So glad to have my rag tag blog friends :)
Gmommy,
Speaking bluntly has never been a problem for me. Tempering that bluntness from a soft verbal form into the harshness of the written word has, on more than one occasion, been my downfall. ... LOL
GMommy: I realize this is a sticky comment, because I do think scripture has very clear duties for women in the church. (That says nothing, however, of a seminary, etc. by the way!)However, for the women to be in the places they are supposed to be, men have to do their duties too.
A trend we have talked about at length was the fact that many men don't "step up to the plate," aren't studied enough to be at the plate, or don't meet the qualifications to serve. I believe one thing that is holding "the church" back from harvesting all God's blessings is this failure.
We've, unfortunately, seen this at BBC. Men willing to play it safe and secure by compromising the truth. (Not all, I know....just making a point.)
"One thing is certain.....SG is an arrogant legend in his own mind."
I was thinking more along the lines of Boss Hog in an Armani suit.
Gaines said some things that really gave me some insight into his thinking and character and made me realize just how insecure he really is. Yes, insecure. All dictators, bullies or tyrants are insecure. That is why they must use certain tactics.
Let's face it, folks. When a leader is confident, trustworthy and secure, they do not have to result to power plays, intimidation, micromanagement, loyalty pledges and oppression of information.
A true leader NEVER has to convince anyone he is the leader. A true leader has natural influence. (I am speaking in the worldly sense because Gaines thinks he is running a large Christian Corporation that markets Jesus as the product)
SG: I am the lead goose here.
SG: I’ll always be the one who has the say who’s in the pulpit. Explicitly. Always
You got that, folks? HE IS THE LEADER!! AND IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE HIM HE IS GOING TO PITCH A FIT!
Sticky but true....unfortunately.
Spurgeon and Janet Geddes make us look like amateurs, weeklings.
Here
Ms. Geddes must have know what false teaching sounded like......
sbcer said:
We've, unfortunately, seen this at BBC. Men willing to play it safe and secure by compromising the truth. (Not all, I know....just making a point.)
SOTL says:
PHIL NEWBERRY, are you listening?
Bromichael,
You ask some very good questions. I think Blogs are one of the most confusing devices ever created to most people. Especially those in leadership or suppposed authority positions.
I can remember reading Hugh Hewitt's book on blogging years ago. In it, he predicted that blogs would become virtual communities of like minded people who would share ideas and information.
This just does not fit nicely into how we have communicated in the past nor how we shared news. The irony does not escape me that Dan Rather hated blogs and a blog was his demise.
The powers to be will always hate blogs because Joe Nobody can give an opinion or share news or information that he could never communicate enmasse.
Before anyone says, well, what about oversight...keep in mind that those who have had oversight of news and information have done a poor job and we all know that opinion slant is in every news story from the LA Times, to CNN to the Baptist Press. It is the nature of the beast.
From a 'Kingdom' standpoint, I think we will see more and more remant virtual communities as people continue coming out of apostate churches. We will also see more and more emergent blogs, etc. (Has anyone seen a Mormon blog?)
I know several bloggers who have asked spiritually mature men (or women) to act as an advisor or elder on what they post and in dealing with comment rules, etc. This has worked well for them. I have someone who does that for me.
The biggest problem we have is that society in general has so dumbed down sin that Christians cannot even point out obvious heinous sin without being accused of being hateful bitter gossips. They will say that we should let God take care of them and say nothing. But that is NOT what scripture says. Paul could have saved himself the trouble and not written any of the Epistles if that were true.
One of the biggest problems we have in Christendom is hiding sin by PUBLIC ministers and church leaders. We have pedophile minsters of prayer, rapists as youth pastors and just today, I sat with a new woman at church, a former wife of an SBC pastor in my city who had an affair, was forced out of the pulpit. Oh, and let us not forget the ones living the high life charging 300 meals on the church credit card on tithe dollars. Or our over 'perked' seminary presidents.
The sin is in epidemic proportions. It is NOT a sin to speak out. AND...when the money dries up, so will they. And more and more people are getting a bit tired of funding all of this.
Oh, BTW: I see where Ted Haggard is asking for donations so he and his wife can have an income while they are in college getting their MA. His house is on the market listed at 700,000. His pay was six figures, his severence was six figures and he had receieved a bonus before he was caught of 85,000. So get your check books out...Ted has a need.
Such is the state of too many pastors in Christendom today.
I am afraid blogs are here to stay and the Pharisees do not like it ONE BIT. Can you blame them?
Someday, somewhere, we are going to see a blog become popular that edifies their pastor. It will probably be some podunk church guy and he will tell us about his godly pastor who drives an old beat up car, lives in a 3 BR ranch and buys his suits at Sears but is on his knees all week begging God on behalf of his flock and those they are trying to reach. And we will beg him to put the preachers sermons on his blog.
"SG: I am the lead goose here."
NASS,
I guess there's your answer about whether the BBC geese are harmless enough. BTW, I heard that one has a listening device implanted under his left wing. Shhh... careful what you say around the little gooses. ... LOL
"I realize this is a sticky comment, because I do think scripture has very clear duties for women in the church"
Someday, you will have to share the verses that spell out those very clear duties. I still cannot find them. :o)
Ez, I read that yesterday and cracked up.
I am so sick to my stomach.
We mothers can do EVERYTHING we know to do to raise our sons to be honorable and courageous......
but they still look to the men around them to show them HOW to be a man.
I don't think a Biblical MAN is a bully OR someone afraid to articulately say to a bully that they are wrong.
.....I AM very grateful for every man that made an effort to speak the truth or expose the truth concerning the sin and corruption at BBC.
but with bullies and brutes in leadership....what example do our sons have???
Lin: I think that discussion would be great.....we need to plan a bowling party!
:)
bromichael,
1) What spiritual conclusion do you long to see from this episode?
2)in what Christ-centered, practical ways does that end come to fruition?
3) what happens if that desired end remains just out of reach, never ordained by the Lord to become reality for you?
Answer.
1)That the sheep will realize they have direct access to God through Jesus (THE WORD) who speaks to us through the Bible today. That if we are truly in Christ, there is no one any closer to Him than we are. That Jesus is going to hold us personally responsible for our deeds, regardless of who fills the pulpit. Conclusion, that we walk the walk of a Christian that we claim to be. That we turn from idolizing the preacher or the church or the world and the things or people in them..
2)Each sheep developing a close personal, intimate relationship with the WORD, spending time with Him daily. Resulting in a circumsized heart with His commandments and statutes clearly written on that heart.
3)I believe that this is exactly what is ordained by God.
Notice that these are all totally independent from any outcome a BBC. People there are being tested to find out where their loyalty is, which King they will serve. As time goes on, this test will occur other places, other "churches". All will eventually be tested and refined. Just as it was in Jerusalem. Only a remnant was saved.
Today, Israel (that is us) finds itself in the wilderness of Sin (Exodus 16) and we grumble, and rebell just as they did. Rather than grumble at Moses, we grumble at Jesus for the testing and the trials that God is refining us with today. We grumble at the manna of the WORD, and cry out for steak from the pulpit.
Just as many died in the wilderness for unbelief, so will many die now for the same reason.
Hebews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Does anyone have a clue what they're talking about here? Because I certainly don't!
Just read the July 6th 2007 minutes and boy, JA sounds like someone just lit a fire under his seat when he hears that there was a recording. Scrambling for a defense as to why he may have contradicted himself before anyone accuses him of doing it. Telling.
RE doesn't have to say much. He just lets JA ramble on like he's confessing or something. He's all over the place.
From the transcript:
"SG: Well, I, I've already done it. I've just apologized to you. I said a while ago, I'm sorry. Maybe you didn’t hear it."
Apparently the person transcribing the tape didn't hear it either because it's not there.
Too bad that SG and his "leadership" hate the blog so much.
Just clicked on the "little leven" post Lindon has on her blog....
anyone know SG's email?????
EZ....well said
Lin,
I caught what you said to ConcernedSBCer....now I'm curious.
to all the women who may have a hesitancy to move into ministry.....
I think it was Miss Johnson, founder of Bible Study Fellowship, who responded when asked how or why she could justify her ministry as a missionary and Bible teacher, stated that God couldn't find a man to do it and He knew she would! I had the privilege of hearing her teach the Book of Ephesians in a Bible conference. It was so profound that I think she had lived every verse in that book! Maybe we have listened too much to man's interpretation of scripture and less to God's. Paul Yonghi Cho, the South Korean pastor, said that if you have a job in the church to do, get a woman to do it! Dare I mention Billy Graham's daughter? I am glad to say that some of the greatest spiritual warriors I have known have been women.
New BBC Open Forum said...
From the transcript:
"SG: Well, I, I've already done it. I've just apologized to you. I said a while ago, I'm sorry. Maybe you didn’t hear it."
Apparently the person transcribing the tape didn't hear it either because it's not there.
6:26 PM, August 26, 2007
Bingo!! My thoughts exactly when I was reading this. This sounds like so many times before when he has supposed to have apologize but never actually did. I mean, is he still selling that line?
There were so many red flags that kept coming up as I read this thing that frankly, we can be here all week pointing them all out and still end up no less frustrated than we are now.
BTW, one thing about the issue about Walk the Line... It was good to read that they DID press SG on it more than just a couple of times. Even when SG tried to deflect the attention on their own possible movie watching, they kept at with, 'But don't you see that...' (or something to that effect). It was probably the one topic which they didn't just 'let go' as easily as they let go of the others. Still, a brick wall is all they got.
Does anyone have a clue what they're talking about here? Because I certainly don't!
In the May 10, 2006 meeting, Richard asked Jeff Arnold if he thought they had done the right thing in coming to the pastor with their concerns and whether he felt they'd come in the right spirit. Jeff affirmed that they had.
Later, Steve Gaines requested a meeting with 27 key (influential) deacons in which he and Jeff Arnold characterized Mark and Richard's approach as a mean-spirited attack. Morris Mills was one of the deacons present. He knew there was a big discrepancy between the account given by Gaines and Arnold and that of Mark and Richard. He recently asked Richard to set the record straight.
Richard met with Jeff Arnold to try to resolve the differences. In that meeting, Arnold stated that he believed they did not come in the right spirit on 5-10-06, directly contradicting what he told them in the meeting.
"SG: Well, I, I've already done it. I've just apologized to you. I said a while ago, I'm sorry. Maybe you didn’t hear it."
NASS said:
Apparently the person transcribing the tape didn't hear it either because it's not there.
You are correct. Gaines attempts an explanation but gives no apology.
eprov said...
Paul Yonghi Cho, the South Korean pastor, said that if you have a job in the church to do, get a woman to do it! Dare I mention Billy Graham's daughter? I am glad to say that some of the greatest spiritual warriors I have known have been women.
6:44 PM, August 26, 2007
Paul Yonghi Cho is a heretic, and that is not a word I toss around lightly.
However, when one attends a church with two hundred deacons, all male, and yet the Bible tells us the first century church had female deacons, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know something is out of spec. One might expect to find -- oh, I dunno -- at least ten female deacons out of two hundred?...Seven?...Two?...One?
tim greer wrote:
"One might expect to find -- oh, I dunno -- at least ten female deacons out of two hundred?...Seven?...Two?...One?"
At BBC? LOLOLOLOL!!! That'll happen about the time Duke sells the Bush Beans secret family recipe.
eprov and Lin: I agree....I know many women that are prayer warriors, the behind-the-scenes kind of workers.....I see nothing wrong with that. In fact, we would be in a heap of trouble without them!
all2Jesus,
Thank you, Thank you very much!
I was left in the dust too when I read this entire transcript and the Starbucks meeting between Jeff Arnold and Richard Emerson.
Glad someone could sort thru the confusion.
BTW,
I didn't catch that apology either, I'm sure it must have been "edited out"LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL
Paul Yonghi Cho is a heretic, and that is not a word I toss around lightly.
However, when one attends a church with two hundred deacons, all male, and yet the Bible tells us the first century church had female deacons, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know something is out of spec. One might expect to find -- oh, I dunno -- at least ten female deacons out of two hundred?...Seven?...Two?...One?
7:18 PM, August 26, 2007
Cho-The Rick Warren of S Korea.
I go to a 'conservative' in doctrine SBC that has 2 women deacons. Both are older women and spiritually mature in the faith.
gmommy, this is a topic I will discuss offline with you guys. Be a serious Berean, though. I am not here to 'convert' anyone on this subject. It is amazing how much Talmudic tradition we have brought into the church.
"1)That the sheep will realize they have direct access to God through Jesus (THE WORD) who speaks to us through the Bible today. That if we are truly in Christ, there is no one any closer to Him than we are. "
Ez, thanks for this! Yes! We have been pointing this out on the blog for a long long time. It is hard to believe that the SBC has birthed so many aspiring mini popes.
Even reading the minutes of the meeting you can see the arrogant popery that is coming out of Gaines.
He was right about one thing, though. He is 'transparent'. :o)
all2jesus,
Thanks for the "interpretation." With all the "uhs" and "ers" and hemming and hawing around, I was at a loss. Seems concise communication is a lost art these days.
eprov....
man enough to take a Bible class from a mere woman...
AND talk about it on the blog!!!
Refreshing.
Oddly enough, the point was made at a bowling party recently that the root of all sin is pride, stretching back to Lucifer, long before Adam and Eve. SG seems to have his share of that deadly sin.
I just got home....
Thanks for the laugh folks. When has Gaines actually apologized for something. I think a hockey game will break out in Hades before Gaines ever apologizes.
On another note, mom fussed at me for staying at the most recent bowling party till midnight without telling her lol.
From this distance all I can say is, man, that's some bad preaching. Contrived, artifical alliteration imposed upon a biblical text lends itself to exactly what this letter writer states. If all the "points" have to rhyme, or start with the same letter, you can make the Bible say just about anything you want it to.
kerygma: You are so right! I prefer going through a book of the Bible verse by verse instead of all the twisting and turning that's going on.
Lynn said...
On another note, mom fussed at me for staying at the most recent bowling party till midnight without telling her lol.
Lynn,
You know how to fix that..bring Mom next time.
That's just, well, it's just, umm,
SAD.
:)
Just got back in town and will not remain silent tonight.
Hats off to Mark Sharpe and Richard Emerson for having the courage to approach the Pastor with their questions. To me they showed love and respect as they asked their questions and were not mean spirited as I was lead to believe.
I don't understand why Jeff Arnold made two totally different statements about RE and MS character?? Very confusing?? And I never heard Steve Gaines apologize to RE either!!
I saw the most obnoxious thing today for the first time up close and personal, thought it might jump right in the car with me, it was frightening!!
I've seen the photo, which does NOT do it justice, but not in real life, since I haven't been back to BBC since the "MONKEY BUSINESS MEETING".
It's got a carnival or circus appearance, or maybe a gaint disproportionate robot.
It is the most classless, ugly and repugnent piece of work I have ever seen for a church, maybe there are worse somewhere, but I haven't seen them.
Have you guessed it yet?
The new Bellevue sign on Germantown Pkwy.
What were they thinking????
Truthseekers that enjoyed my showing off my great bowling skills....you have mail
someone with Lynn's email...forward please...
OH! I think I need another email too...
Sheepless!!
MY sentiments exactly...tasteless(and Garish) like the whole atmosphere and attitude BBC has taken on.....
the commercial makes me want to get sick.....did I happen to tell you what I think someone in the commercial is "missing"?????
When I hear him say....we love you just the way you are.....
I think about us and ...the EX minister I heard from recently that is still grieving and being ignored by those still on staff when he runs into them....and so many others that CERTAINLY weren't shown love.
False advertisement.
I just read the transcripts again and Steve Gaines really cuts down the North American Mission Board!
And to sheeplessatbbc ...I agree the sign is an eyesore!
Next..how can I get in on the next bowling party?
Awww, sheepless. You must not have seen that huge Statue of Liberty holding the cross -- over on Winchester. Surely the "circus" sign isn't in that league... quite.
For the benefit of our out-of-town readers, this one.
NASS,
That one might be a coin toss, I dunno!
NASS,
In all fairness you need to give the BBC sign equal time.
Can you beam it on down here from up there in Minnesota?
NASS,
I just noticed, they've got a Farris Wheel in the background of the Statue of Liberty with the
Cross, they've got their own "circus" too!!
sheepless,
Of course. Here.
sheepless,
Shhh! Don't give them any ideas!
SilentNight said...
Next..how can I get in on the next bowling party?
SilentNight, I like your name.
Check with NASS about the bowling party, as soon as he/she gets the corporate jet again from BBC to fly down we'll have another bowling party.
Be sure to get your "special" watch from SOTL or Concernedsbcer so you can synchronize the time. It's really a clandestine meeting you know, but don't tell anyone.
BBC's private jet is the only one that will hold NASS's "trolling motor", can't leave home without it
Thanks for cracking me up before I go to bed!!
What a group we are!
"...don't indict yourself too"
Hmmm....
MS – ...... It’s just my conviction over Bellevue. It breaks my heart that Bellevue has 30,000 members and we’re not baptizing at least 30,000 per year. I think that we are so; we have such a small influence on our community that it’s pitiful. And it’s not you; it’s not you at all. It’s been going on for years but I’m just saying. You know, everyone at Bellevue should be winning a soul. Is it too much to ask everyone at Bellevue to try and win one soul. It’s not that you or I are winning the souls. At least invite someone to church. Let others meet Christ in church. How do we get to this point? That’s what I’m frustrated about more so than anything.
SG – The thing you have to be careful with is make sure you, I heard Dr. Rogers say, “It takes no size to criticize.”
MS – I know.
SG – Make sure when you say those things you do it in a way that you don’t indict yourself too.
"rod,"
Would you e-mail me please?
In the 25 years I went to BBC..never saw a group of smokers.....strange new observation.
Certainly not that a smoker is not a Christian but now I guess at BBC there is no reason to be embarrassed.
No reason to blush.
If so many could blow off the sin and crime of a staff sexual predator and blow off the Sr pastor and other ministers and lay leadeship that turned a blind eye to sexual deviance and immorality.....
what's the diff?
Wave the green and make the attacker disappear...
Wave the green ...or the threat of exposure ...and the immorality goes under the rug with all the other sins...
No apology needed for the abuse to a 15 year old child
What about the smothered story about the lurking peeper?
smothered,whispered words of a sexual assault to a young lady on campus?
The women preyed upon and still bleeding from the reinjury by PW and the non issue it was to the bogus investigative board?
A Sr Pastor that lives beyond his means....greed and prudence no longer of importance.
Just tickle the ears with ..God loves you just the way you are......
but beat them down if they dare not open their pockets
or dare to question the self appointed annointed
With the elementary, fill in the
blank sermon outlines
who will actually read the Bible and find out about the priesthood of the believer?
the last shall be first?
the good sheperd that goes out to get the one lost sheep.....
(not send the silence police out)
who will remember that God uses the humble to shame the proud?
the scattered flock will.
the rag tag truth seekers will.
We have to stop wanting the old BBC back....
or to make GBC or Faith or any other church like the old BBC.
That same gentleman I shared about talking to on Saturday related a story about someone that had been gone from the country for the past 7 years.
She asked this gentleman where were all the BBC people are...or something to that effect..
He said,
We are all scattered...
She replied,
Thank The Lord!
She had been praying that those who have been weaned from the milk would go out and be disciples and be used by the Lord.
We don't need to use BBC mission funds or be part of an organized mission group or entertain the world
to be Bereans, missionaries, disciples, and servants for the Lord.
AND God is using this technology to bring us together to encourage each other.
How cool.
gmommy wrote:
"AND God is using this technology to bring us together to encourage each other.
How cool."
How cool, indeed! Thank you.
rod and gmom........
the smoking is because of the socio-economic level that SG attracts! (maybe a little tongue-in-cheek) Rednecks just have little social grace.
A blog friend has informed me that Sweet cakes has been "defending my honor".
What a man!
Also,that Solomon has graciously apologized for emotions geared towards me personally.
I graciously accept and appreciate your apology and offer mine for offending you.
The optimisim you quoted from my post was towards Ms Billie if I am not mistaken.
It had nothing to do with the bridge collapse.
I long ago left the building so I am no threat to you or yours.
I truly wish you the best.
I would probably have another break down if I ever walked thru those doors that once meant safety to me and to my children.
that said,
I will continue to unite with my blog friends.
I will continue to voice my opinions on this blog.
I learned the hard way that if you don't acknowledge the elephant in the room
it leaves its waste on everyone and everything and it stinks.
The elephant sat on me, smashed me and left deep wounds.
I believe with all my heart....
and my children expect nothing less from me.....
that I must not be destroyed by the wounds
that I must not be silenced by the fear of more wounds
that I must not cover them with pretty band aids and pretend all is well
that I must do all I know in my very small way to prevent the elephant of sin and lies and evil to smash anyone else
PARTICULARLY
the weak, the wounded or the innocent.
I thank my blog friends for their quick correction when I let my emotions get the better of me
and for the encouragement when you hear my despair.
Cakes....
you are a gentleman and a friend.
All the drama for the day.
eprov:
the smoking is because of the socio-economic level that SG attracts! (maybe a little tongue-in-cheek)
I have to disagree, eprov. Now, if folks were walking around chewing Red Man and the church put out spittoons...
That new sign at Bellevue looks like the type that you would see at the entrance to an amusement park. But wait, maybe it is appropriate after all!!!!!
Gmommy: How can SG live beyond his means on $450,000 per year plus no telling how much other income coming in under the table?
Humility
After the worship service the pastor was on his knees at the front of the church, and he prayed out loud, “Lord, I am so unworthy; I am humble before you!”
He was soon joined by the music minister, who also prayed, “Lord, I am so unworthy; I am humble before you!”
Next the church janitor came and got on his knees next to them, and he, too, cried out, “Lord, I am so unworthy; I am humble before you!”
Then the pastor leaned over and whispered to the music minister, “Look who thinks he’s as humble as we are!”
eprov said...
rod and gmom........
the smoking is because of the socio-economic level that SG attracts! (maybe a little tongue-in-cheek) Rednecks just have little social grace.
Tacky; just tacky.
larry said...
eprov:
the smoking is because of the socio-economic level that SG attracts! (maybe a little tongue-in-cheek)
I have to disagree, eprov. Now, if folks were walking around chewing Red Man and the church put out spittoons...
Now that would be a church that "loves you just the way you are". Maybe they should change that slogan to "We love you just the way you are--whether we should or not."
Three preachers
Three preachers were drinking coffee in the coffee shop on Monday morning.
The Methodist Church preacher said, "We had a fantastic week last week. We had a revival meeting and gained 5 new members!"
The Presybterian Church preacher said, "We also had a fantastic week last week. We also had a revival meeting and gained 5 new members!"
The Baptist Church preacher (who shall remain nameless) said, "We also had a fantastic week last week. We didn't have a revival meeting, but we got rid of 10 of our worst troublemakers!"
junk,
Perhaps they'll make a "smoking section" in one corner of the sanctuary. (Lest there be any doubt in anyone's mind, I'm just kidding!)
New BBC Open Forum said...
junk,
Perhaps they'll make a "smoking section" in one corner of the sanctuary. (Lest there be any doubt in anyone's mind, I'm just kidding!)
NASS,
Good thing you let folks know you were kidding, or next thing you know it would have been posted on savingbellevue.com. :)
junk,
Pausing to wipe water off screen! LOL!!!
Junk: Would that be troublemakers or wolves?
Good joke, by the way!
:)
junk,
Right.
concernedsbcer,
According to pastors.com and those of that mindset, the two are synonymous.
In the 15 years that I was at BBC, I think that I saw ONE person smoking that ENTIRE time!!!
What's next, a smoking lounge?
Love that troublemaker joke! I spit a little soda at the computer too. =) The janitor one was good too.
I NEVER saw anyone smoking anywhere on campus when Pastor Rogers was there. I'm sure people knew how ashamed they would feel if Pastor Rogers saw them smoking. It wasn't about fearing Pastor Rogers. It was about not wanting to disappoint him, which implies love and respect.
BTW, I just got the new Christian Book Distributors Fall Catalogue in the mail today. On page 27 there is a "Johnny Cash Reads the Complete NKJV New Testament Collector's Edition - CD." Maybe we can take up a collection and send one of these to SG as a gesture of good faith. I wonder if he already has one.
=}~
junk....
back in the country, or should I say back in the day, churches used to have 'back door revivals.'
SG is country and a little old fashioned so I am sure that's what he instituted. And some of you thot he was being arrogant and self-serving? Or did they label it 'trash?'
And the pulpit committee hired him to win the younger generation??? My kids ain't buyin'.
OC's 'just sayin' is appropriate here.
I have an earnest question that I want the answer to so I can understand:
Who are the few or many who say that they are receiving scripture?
They are described in 2 Thess
Where are they coming from?
The World
Are they just deceived?
Yes
Are they lost?
Yes
Are they ignorant of the Word?
Yes!!!
Are they putting a man before God because he tickles their ears?
Yes
Smoking
Charles Haddon Spurgeon loved a good cigar and smoked often. A woman in his congregation came to him to rebuke him about his smoking habit.
She asked him if he thought it was a sin to smoke. He said no. She said, Well, what would be a sin, then. Spurgeon said, Smoking two at one time.
Spurgeon smoked cigars and drank rum. It was D.L Moody who had the nerve to question him on it when he went to the Tabernacle in London, Spurgeon's church. Spurgeon said that it was not a sin to smoke cigars nor was it a sin to drink rum. However, it was a sin to be a glutton and D.L. Moody certainly, by the size of himself, could not deny he was guilty of the sin of gluttony.
I hope none of our happy band of bloggers is trying to get across the Hernando DeSoto bridge about now. It's closed. Take I-55!
Rod,
I don't want to scold you! You speak the truth. I just asked you to e-mail me.
NASS
Rod,
It's only when the blog police show up randomly and ask you to email them that you need to think something is up :)
One thing tho...
they hijacked that building....not us... we see!!!
We are the church!
some days that will be a comfort... until you get thru the shock and hurt.
we're here for you.
Here, here Rod!
Rod: The reason SG is able to hang onto his job, is because of the many misguided souls that think he is the best preacher around and they are willing to pay the bus fare for him to ride. Until those that are left at BBC see the light, you might as well write "lost cause" across the door. Additionally, the new additions don't have a clue about the immediate past.
Rod: I appreciate your straightforward truthful posts.
:)
You aren't in trouble that I can tell. :)
rod,
Mr. Almond sir,
Could you email me, please?
Thank you so much.
Larry
From the meeting transcript:
SG: "And as far as traveling, if anybody thinks they’re going to get ri- rich preaching around in Baptist churches, I think you would attest to that fact that you’re not gonna get rich doing that stuff. I don’t so any of that for the money."
You think Junior Hill, Johnny Hunt, and David Jeremiah (just to name some examples) traveled to BBC to preach only out of the goodness of their hearts? No one expects them to preach without compensation, but we're talking about thousands of $$$ per sermon. When SG was there, Junior Hill was reportedly handed a love offering of $25K for preaching one Sunday at Gardendale's FBC.
So no, I don't think I'd "attest to that" at all, Pastor.
Rod,
I'm not going to fuss at you... but Larry might! :-)
SG: …my kids were home and they wanted me to go see it and I went to see it with them. Different… I have about four kids, so…
gmommy asks.,
What exactly is "different"
is he not sure how many kids he has???
jusy a few questions...
I don't know what the rating on the movie was but
why would going with his kids make it OK...if it is say an R rated movie???
I told my kids if the movie wasn't good enough for them,I didn't need it in my brain either....
we set the example , don't we????
Who has TIME to go to a movie numerous times????
Even if it were a great movie....
Thought you all may enjoy this from Spurgeon from the pulpit:
"Well, dear friends, you know that some men can do to the glory of God what to other men would be sin. And notwithstanding what brother Pentecost has said, I intend to smoke a good cigar to the glory of God before I go to bed to-night.
"If anybody can show me in the Bible the command, 'Thou shalt not smoke,' I am ready to keep it; but I haven't found it yet. I find ten commandments, and it's as much as I can do to keep them; and I've no desire to make them into eleven or twelve.
"The fact is, I have been speaking to you about real sins, not about listening to mere quibbles and scruples. At the same time, I know that what a man believes to be sin becomes a sin to him, and he must give it up. 'Whatsoever is not of faith is sin' [Rom. 14:23], and that is the real point of what my brother Pentecost has been saying.
"Why, a man may think it a sin to have his boots blacked. Well, then, let him give it up, and have them whitewashed. I wish to say that I'm not ashamed of anything whatever that I do, and I don't feel that smoking makes me ashamed, and therefore I mean to smoke to the glory of God."
Rod: I read about Mother Theresa. I think the part I found fascinating was that BECAUSE she was in doubt of God's existence, the church felt that was more of a reason to speed up her sainthood.
She did many marvelous things, unselfish works, for many years. But did she do it outside of the service of God and God's love? It's hard to even imagine.
mr. rod,
There's a very easy way to find out.
larrymemphis@yahoo.com
Thank you Lin. Now we are getting down to the truth of the Word of God and away from the Baptist Pharisee's laws of men. There is more time spent on the laws of men than on the Word of God. Isn't that what Jesus hated? The spiritual pride of leaders who were more concerned with the laws of men than the laws of God? Some how we agree with Jesus when He points His finger at the Pharisees, but are totally blinded to the Mishnah we have in the chruch and command men to SIGN IT. What makes anyone think that Jesus allows baptists bellevue leadership to get away with what He condemned the Priests for? And it is my guess the Pharisees did their fence building around the Law of God out of fear of breaking Gods laws, NOT self serving. The bellevue leadership is not fence building around the law of God, but fence climbing over private property, no trespassing please. This so called covenant of bellevue men, is carnal and it is not for the sake of God or His church but for what? What is the purpose of it? It is obvious.
Why so much time and attention on amoral issues and not on: Thou shalt not lie or you are to love your neighbor as yourself? Or speak kindly one to another or love one another or build each other up. Or, how about this one: If you want to be great in God's economy, then become a servant of all. OUT the windows these all go. Purpose DRIVEN is the rule of the day. Sign the dotted line! I heard with my own ears from our pulpit: I do not care what the Word of God says, we Baptists do not drink.
If I heard that, then God heard it too and He puts His Word above His Name.
Spurgeon did not believe the Bible was a guideline but Spurgeon knew the Bible was and is the Word of God.
I know concerned.
It is awesome and fearful that the path one is on, like Mother T. can be the wide path rather than the straight and narrow. What happened when she died. after all those years of self sacrifice, thinking she might be serving the living God and then to find out she didn't know Him at all......... Our Father wants a real, where the rubber meats the road, relationship with us. His is the only will in the universe. His is the only way.
That's why all this garbage of sign this, do that, don't do this, submit to me and follow me even though it is manifestly clear that our leadership is not honest or truthful and do really impossible things for most believers to wrap their minds around mentality!!! You keep asking yourself, Where is God in all of this? OR, it looks like God is NOT in any of this!
I've learned you can actually feel the presence of the church leaving the building. I saw straw men arguments being thrown out into the congregation which divided the congregation. For eg. We are NOT going to go to two services, a contempory service and a conservative service so get used to this music. Well, let me ask: did Bellevue, before Sg EVER have problems like that straw man garbage? Not at all. We all worshipped together, both young and old and I like thousands of others were blessed and confronted with true worship. Why deliberately destroy the good and replace it with division? Why? Most churches would have loved to have had what Bellevue had in unity between all generations in our service. Why deliberately destroy that? Look at the division now.
Even though you don't print my comments its always interesting to check at night and see what pompous asses you actually have become. Its absolutely amazing to see the spiritual contempt in the writings on here. The sad part is that the Lord is going to hold all of you accountable for what you are saying and doing to His church.
brady wrote:
"Even though you don't print my comments its always interesting to check at night and see what pompous asses you actually have become. Its absolutely amazing to see the spiritual contempt in the writings on here. The sad part is that the Lord is going to hold all of you accountable for what you are saying and doing to His church."
My, my, you need to watch your language, "brady"! By the way, what comments are you referring to?
The sad part is that the Lord is going to hold all of you accountable for what you are saying and doing to His church.
8:59 PM, August 27, 2007
I hope so! we are told to contend for the faith and so many are in apostate churches.
Try this with your pastor. Tell him as of this week, his salary has to be cut back to 60,000 a year. (that is probably higher than the median income for a memphis family)
All book royalties go to the church. All speaking engagement honorariums sans travel expenses come to BBC. He must always travel coach on the cheapest fare and stay at Red Roof Inns. NO free tuition for his kids and he must pay health insurance premiums like other staffers.
And...no more advances.
Start treating him like the 'servant' he should be with accountability and see what happens. It would be interesting, huh?
Matthew 15:1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
10And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
21Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
Lin: I LOVE THAT! I wish every church would think about the median income......even 100,000 total package would probably be okay, if all your other suggestions were implemented. I say....let's do some weeding out....
Who wants to serve and who wants to be served?
Brady.
Take a hike.
Just sayin',
oc.
Brady said...
Even though you don't print my comments its always interesting to check at night and see what pompous asses you actually have become. Its absolutely amazing to see the spiritual contempt in the writings on here. The sad part is that the Lord is going to hold all of you accountable for what you are saying and doing to His church.
careful there brady,
When God administers justice, he does so across the board. He's no respecter of persons, so be careful what you call folks yourself..somehow I don't think the label "pompous asses" will sit too well either, do you?
concernedsbcer said:
Lin: I LOVE THAT! I wish every church would think about the median income......even 100,000 total package would probably be okay, if all your other suggestions were implemented. I say....let's do some weeding out....
Who wants to serve and who wants to be served?
oc says: Whoa. 100 G?
That doesn't sound like sacrifice to me. You really want to weed some out? Pay them what I get.
Just sayin'.
oc.
oc,
Remember to say "please"! As in, "Take a hike, please."
Just remindin'...
Brady said...
Even though you don't print my comments its always interesting to check at night and see what pompous asses you actually have become. Its absolutely amazing to see the spiritual contempt in the writings on here. The sad part is that the Lord is going to hold all of you accountable for what you are saying and doing to His church.
8:59 PM, August 27, 2007
Maybe Gaines should be worried about how The Master will hold him accountable. A Good shephard of God's flock has honor and integrity. Without it, people will not trust that leadership. Gaines is NOT a good Shephard of God's flock.
I'm with you, oc. I wouldn't mind making that kind of "sacrifice."
Okay...I bow to the 60 grand mark....
sorry....
:(
The company can cut my salary to 100k anytime they want. :-D
Just jokin'
Which reminds me. What does "just sayin'" mean? Really -- I can't figure it out!
Careful, oc. You'll be accused of being jealous!
all2jesus said:
Which reminds me. What does "just sayin'" mean? Really -- I can't figure it out!
oc says:
Hey all2jesus!
As far as oc goes, 'just sayin'' means this...
"this is just my opinion, not humble or anything else, but just because it's right."
Just sayin'.
oc.
:)
(There is a 'tongue in cheek' quality in the sayin'.)
Just sayin'.
:)
NASS said:
Careful, oc. You'll be accused of being jealous!
oc says:
No. But when I get accused of being right, that's when ya'll should start worrying.
I think it's time.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Rod,
"I heard with my own ears from our pulpit: I do not care what the Word of God says, we Baptists do not drink."
Can you tell me when/where he said that? I'd like to hear it for myself.
Thanks
Yeah, Rod -- what Andrew asked. I'd like to hear that one myself.
Hey OC,
I'm so relieved. I was worried it meant "I didn't mean any of that, I'm just sayin' it." :-)
Nice meeting you and everyone else at the clandestine rendezvous. And I must say, our hostess was most gracious. She knows who she is.
Have any of you read "The Truth War" by John MacArthur? I have just begun and this quote begins the book:
"The church of Christ is continually represented under the figure of an army; yet its Captain is the Prince of Peace; its object is the establishment of peace, and its soldiers are men of a peaceful disposition. The spirit of war is at the extremely opposite point to the spirit of the gospel. Yet nevertheless, the church on earth has, and until the second advent must be, the church militant, the church armed, the church warring, the church conquering. And how is this? It is in the very order of things that so it must be. Truth could not be truth in this world if it were not a warring thing, and we should at once suspect that it were not true if error were friends with it. The spotless purity of truth must always be at war with the blackness of heresy and lies. I say again, it would cast a suspicion upon its own nature; we should feel at once that it was not true, if it were not an enmity with the false. And so at this present time, the church of Christ, being herself the only incarnation of truth left upon this world, must be at war with error of every kind of shape; or if she were not, we should at once conclude that she was not herself the church of the living God."
This is the beginning of the sermon preached by the REV. C.H. SPURGEON on the Sabbath morning of December 26th, 1858
Titled: The Vanguard and Rereward of the Church which can be read in its entirety at.
The war for truth.... "The anonymous letter".... Although not perfect, displays the spotless purity of truth as it wars against the half truths in Dr. Gaines “Unity” message. It is one thing to know that something is not right with what a preacher has said, but quite another to be able to "spell" it out so clearly and accurately that many more of us can also "see" the errors as revealed by the council of the whole Word of God. THANK YOU!
My question is: What are "we" doing to equip and train our seminary graduates to be similarly capable so that they not only discern error but are able to "spell" it out as well. Seminary warriors for the Lord Jesus will experience defeat from within, without the requisite preparation and TESTING to become so capable.
Sing unto the Lord! No matter what sing!
Padroc
From the meeting transcript:
SG: "One thing I like about Bellevue is you don't have to be a member here 10 years before you can lead in silent prayer somewhere in Sunday School."
What?
Padroc (from John McArthur book) said: "The spotless purity of truth must always be at war with the blackness of heresy and lies."
Exactly! It's NOT about unity; it's about truth. True unity can only be attained through unity in truth. People are being sold a bill og goods when they are being told that "we should all just get along" and "trust the annointed for God's Word" and "those that disagree are spreading disharmony." Standing for scriptural truth and causing trouble are two totally different agendas. That distinction needs to be made and emphasized.
professional staff vs. laity....
an early 'sign' that was a clue to the future was when the reverend and Jaime did all the praying in the service. And, sorry if this sounds judgmental, but the level of intercession they provided just didn't stimulate me! Years ago I had a senior pastor tell me that lay people didn't understand the needs of the church. Thus his reason for using professional staff for the public prayers in the services. Oh well.
eprov: I never thought of that before....but doesn't that minimize the priesthood of the believer?
God hears our prayers...even the simplest, non-professional ones.
NBBCOF said, "SG: "One thing I like about Bellevue is you don't have to be a member here 10 years before you can lead in silent prayer somewhere in Sunday School."
What?
This, in my opinion and from my research, is more slow boil, a reference to contemplative spirituality...contemplative prayer. This is also why the prayer center was/is so important to him, in my opinion only of course. If he continues on his trek...we'll see it all unfold I think. As I have said before, this guy has tremendous patience. He is more than willing to ride it all out to fruition. It is still more hegelian dialectic...divide and conquer. He has already divided; now he is conquering. Of course, he probably has some members he is going to have to 'help leave'. And no, there is no need for these guys, in the way they see things...to have any maturity among those in leadership. I know of a church who just recently elected a young man, most likely still in his twenties, who was saved only three years ago, as a deacon. Still on milk, no spiritual growth. Under the leadership of pastors who have lost their way, this will continue don't you think? They no longer see themselves as accountable to God in my opinion. The more secular congregations grow, the more we will see this. The Christians are being 'helped to leave' the churches.
A must read... and hear...
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SG: "The pastor has to be able to assimilate a team over years using wisdom but behind the same philosophy. Theology between Dr. Rogers and I; not a hair's difference. Philosophically I think I'm a little bit more in tune with reaching the next generation and he felt that way.
"Dr. Rogers looked me in the eye and said I'm too old to reach the next generation. That took a lot of ? for him to say that. He said you need to bring in some fresh ideas. And I'm not trying to back up everything I do with Adrian Rogerisms. Adrian Rogers was just a man but the bottom line is it's kinda nice when he says something, when he likes what you are doing.
"All the little changes I've made that I felt were little and he was 100% with them from the get go, but be that as it may, I just uh, if I in any way come across defensive, I can tell you it's been a looooooooong (3 seconds) time since I've had anybody, now I'm not above questioning, talk to me like this, ask questions like this. The very questions by themselves, if you didn't know better just sound like we don't know if we can trust you or not. Now whether you meant it... I'll take your word that you didn't mean it that way, but I think we're all grown boys too, and girls. Surely you can understand why I say that. I can tell you the whole 14 years I was at Gardendale I never had anyone... ? This is a very rare situation for me.
"And uh, am I ecstatic about the meeting? To be frank with you I'm just going to have to let it rest. As far as I'm concerned when you all walk out the door, it's out the door. I'm taking what you said at face value and not out here trying to rally the troops to get these questions on the docket because I'll be frank with you and I don't want to give you any false hope. Virtually none of that stuff you said is going to happen. I'm not trying to be ugly to you but I'm just telling you, you can't lead a Baptist Church like that. Again, I'm not saying he's God or that what he said is infallible, but I love Sam Shaw."
MS: "I don't even know Sam Shaw."
SG: "I've known him, of him, for a long time. He was trying to implement a Presbyterian policy on a Baptist Church and you can't do it. There are maybe 2 or 3 Southern Baptist churches that do Elders where there's any resemblance of peace. I say when you start dealing with bylaws and legal things, basically there's a trust factor being broken somewhere. For Sam to feel like he had to change the bylaws there had to be some kind of trust factor that wasn't working right, either on the laity side or on his side."
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SG: "Sam would be in tall cotton right now if he had just let that stuff alone. Heh heh heh."
Wonder what else Dr. Rogers said to him? Maybe something about moving too fast and the need to slow down?
I think SG and Sam Shaw are more than just two ships passing in the night. To say he "knows of" Shaw seems a bit of an understatement as they've taken trips together and been spotted dining together in Memphis.
As for no one at Gardendale ever questioning him about anything, I think that was because they were too intimidated to confront SG in any way. They let him intimidate them, just as people at BBC have. At a GFBC staff meeting with the new pastor (following SG), he asked the staff's opinion about something. A bewildered staff member reportedly replied, "You mean we are allowed to have an opinion?"
" I say when you start dealing with bylaws and legal things, basically there's a trust factor being broken somewhere."
No, actually when you continue to ignore bylaws and "legal things," that's when there's a trust factor being broken. Any organization, be it a church or a secular one, needs guidelines and an accountability structure to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. All this secrecy and refusal to follow even the bylaws we have and to say that the Bible is the only guide we need in these matters sounds good but in reality is folly.
I think it's interesting that these taped conversations are coming out at this time. I don't think the anonymous letter and these conversations coming out are coincidental. I DID NOT SAY that the MS, RE or anyone else on tape has ANYTHING to do with the anonymous letter. I just think it's not a coincidence. I think some of the people involved have been quiet long enough and it's time for stuff to hit the fan.
karen
The BBC deacons' wives received this letter last week...
August 23, 2007
Dear Deacon Wife,
You are invited to join in celebrating the second anniversary of Steve and Donna Gaines as Bellevue's pastor and wife on Sunday, September 9, 4:00 p.m. As the deacons meet in the Fellowship Hall, the wives will gather upstairs in F241-243.
We will honor Donna with praise and worship to our Lord through music, with testimonies of how God has worked through her, and have a special time of prayer for her. We invite you to bring a card or note of blessing for Donna. We will collect them at the door and give them to her during this time.
A joint reception honoring Donna and Brother Steve will be held in the Fellowship Hall at 5:00 p.m. We look forward to our time together with you and honoring our great God and His servants.
By His grace and for His glory,
Ginger Whitehorn, Cheri Smith, Brett Ray, Dena Miller
With regard to SG's indignation about being trusted, I just have this to say:
" The louder he spoke of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons"
There is one thing that has been bothering me since I read those minutes. This was it:
SG: "The pastor has to be able to assimilate a team over years using wisdom but behind the same philosophy. Theology between Dr. Rogers and I; not a hair's difference. Philosophically I think I'm a little bit more in tune with reaching the next generation and he felt that way.
"Dr. Rogers looked me in the eye and said I'm too old to reach the next generation. That took a lot of ? for him to say that. He said you need to bring in some fresh ideas. And I'm not trying to back up everything I do with Adrian Rogerisms. Adrian Rogers was just a man but the bottom line is it's kinda nice when he says something, when he likes what you are doing.
How do we know that Pastor AR told him this? Are we supposed to just take SG's word for it? How many times has SG proven to be trustworthy??? Or rather, has he ever proven to be trustworthy??? He knows good and well how much we loved AR and respected what he said. It would benefit SG to have us believe that AR agreed with him on something or encouraged him or said anything that would make SG look good right about now. He pretty much admitted that at the end of the second paragraph.
Look, obviously, I don't know whether AR said those things or not. But frankly, I have every reason to doubt what SG says, especially when it comes to AR and especially when we all know how SG treated AR in the end.
BTW, theologically, there is a HUGE difference!!! I don't ever remember AR twisting God's Word to beat up his flock!!!!!
Oh, I forgot to credit Ralph Waldo Emerson with the above quote.
SOTL,
Are you sure it wasn't Richard Emerson?
'reach the younger generation'.....
So what would be the basis to believe that SG could reach the younger generation? Wouldn't we think that his previous successes would show that? I am not aware of any dramatic demographic difference in the make up of FBCG. It was a reflection of the area age demographics where it was situated. IF that were a qualifier, why wouldn't the pulpit committee have looked for a more contemporary, urban type? Seems to me they chose an old-fashioned flavor, Nashville music, rural type. So what's with the claim to reach the younger generation? Or was Jaime his ace to achieve this?
eprov said...
rod and gmom........
the smoking is because of the socio-economic level that SG attracts! (maybe a little tongue-in-cheek) Rednecks just have little social grace.
11:13
I don't smoke and do not agree with smoking but I invite smokers to attend church with me.
Maybe, just maybe, God had a plan for BBC to get out of the, "comfort zone" and witness to these people. Maybe, just maybe, they were never really welcomed before.
I personally would rather be with a smoker who will come to church and possibly be converted than a non smoker who is so filled with pride that they think they are too good to share their faith with someone who smokes or of another race.
I think anyone who reads this blog can easily understand why there had to be a cleasing of the temple of BBC.
ALL Readers,
I wish to invite all smokers, all races, ALL people who have a soul to feel free to come to BBC and experience the love of our great Lord and Savior.
Billie
Billie wrote:
"I think anyone who reads this blog can easily understand why there had to be a cleasing of the temple of BBC."
You mean of "us"?
I think "eprov's" comment, just as he indicated, was tongue-in-cheek, and I thought your "cleansing" comment was ugly (if I interpreted it correctly), but I don't disagree with anything else you wrote.
Barring an all-out revival and change of hearts, there does need to be a "cleansing" at BBC, beginning at the top and going down.
Billie said: "I think anyone who reads this blog can easily understand why there had to be a cleasing of the temple of BBC."
Who are you to judge those who have been "cleansed (from) the temple of BBC" by what is/has been written on this blog? I would say most people who left BBC did so without saying a word to anyone, especially the blog. And many if not most left with a heavy heart and much sadness as a family member was losing part of his/her family. For you to claim that all who left (or as you put it, were "cleansed" from the temple) fit your description or your definition, whatever that may be, is short-sighted and somewhat arrogant. I must sign off now before I become ugly. And by the way, some of "us" are still at Bellevue serving and attempting to worship the best we can.
Billie, I am reminded of Paul's admonishment to the Corinthians that he 'sought to know nothing among you save Jesus Christ and Him crucified.'
You have emailed me direct with very thotful, mature insights to the faith.
Yet you post on this blog with some of the most divisive, even hateful, snobbish comments. What's with that?
I can assure you I would be considered 'liberal' on social issues by many of my Baptist friends. I have enough challenges to live my faith that I have no time to worry about someone else other than to love them and pray for them. You took a comment and ran with it but totally out of context. I think you are smarter than that. Did you twist that just to be hateful?
If you have the gift of prophecy your harsh rhetoric would bring repentance. That doesn't happen.
You are free to post and say whatever you choose. However, I do NOT think it is graced with the Spirit. My opinion, and not so humbly.
This whole smoking issue is a gnat being strained at while swallowing camels (no pun intended). Personally I rank that right up there with card-playing, movies, women wearing pants, long hair, etc...the big no-no's we almost all remember growing up as being antithetical to being Christian. All based on societal and cultural attitudes rather than the teachings of the Scriptures themselves. Let's not let matters of conscience which are not addressed in the Scriptures turn into a list of do's and don'ts which do not produce spirituality but religiosity. Hell will be full of "religious" folks that don't smoke, drink, cuss or chew.
Billie said....
Maybe, just maybe, God had a plan for BBC to get out of the, "comfort zone" and witness to these people. Maybe, just maybe, they were never really welcomed before.
I personally would rather be with a smoker who will come to church and possibly be converted than a non smoker who is so filled with pride that they think they are too good to share their faith with someone who smokes or of another race.
I think anyone who reads this blog can easily understand why there had to be a cleasing of the temple of BBC.
JTB: Billie, God gave you permission to say that? Now you are saying that prideful people are not good enough for you or BBC? Pride is a sin too, Billie and that person can be free from that sin through Christ.
Billie, what your saying is that your rather have a smoker than a prideful person to sit with you. How arrogant is that? Could it be that you won't sit with yourself?
Your cleasing statement wasn't very nice Billie. It was very condecending Billie.
If that is the love of Christ that you want the "smokers or anyone who has a soul" to find? Don't expect a rush of people, Billie.
By the way, smoker or not, all people have souls and need Christ.
I hope your pride and condencending attitude which you condem others for here doesn't hinder your outreach for others.
AMEN, Aog.
Now, go take a bit of wine for your stomach.
Did Miss Billie find the key again?
allofgrace,
I agree totally that hell will be filled with many that have never participated in the activities or habits you mentioned.
I also agree that these are not things we need to spend time discussing on this forum.
HOWEVER,
The smoking discussion today were just observations.
I hear Christians say they see nothing wrong with gambling because the Bible doesn't spell out "Thou shalt not gamble".
Neither does the Bible spell out
"thou shalt not smoke"
BUT we know there are principals taught in the Bible that show us these things are not good for us.
Many things are free to us but are not God's best for us.
as a mother, I feel the need to make that point... just in case my weaker brother
(or son) may be reading.
I also believe that Jesus died on the cross to FREE us From
living our lives in bondage to sin...
smoking is bondage.
Strictly another observation ...not a new topic.
Now Miss Billie has hurt my feelings so badly that I might just start smoking.
As a point of cultural reference, waaaaay back in 1978, when I had finished college and had my own apartment, I had a " no smoking" sign outside right by my door bell. That was NOT politically correct at the time, and people were shocked that I would be so rude as to ask them to not smoke in my apartment.
I guess now I'm looking pretty smart to those same folks. :)
From a link on Christa Brown's blog.....
It just presents a very poor and very public airing of the dirty laundry in church business," he said. "I'm trying to tell churches, please, let's deal with our problems in a more civil and, yes, more private fashion."
Benjamin Cole, a pastor from Enid, Okla., who is one of the bloggers responsible for SBCOutpost.com, said the blog "reflects rather than directs the tone and temper" of the debate within the denomination.
Here we go again!
Now Frank Page is withdrawing his endorsment of blogs.
Guess we better shut this one down....
WAIT!!! I have an idea!
Lets get rid of the dirty laundry in the church business!!!!
For starters...Hmmmmm...
Why don't the SBC pastors obey the Biblical qualifications for ministers!
blameless,
temperate,
of good behavior,
not violent,
not greedy for money,
gentle, not quarrelsome,
not a novice,
lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil,
have a good testimony among those who are outside,
lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
That's another approach, rather than blaming the blogs
and not the SIN IN THE CAMP.
One thing the SBC churches have in common with disfunctional families where sexual abuse is taking place....
they want to keep it a SECRET.
That's their code for
"civil and private".
gmommy,
People can be in bondage to pretty much anything...food, money, sex, you name it. None of these things are evil in and of themselves...only when they become an idol, or are used in a manner which God doesn't prescribe. Only the individual can truly answer as to whether they are in bondage to something. My point in my earlier post was this...societal and cultural attitudes toward smoking tend to make folks pinpoint that...among other "biggies" as particularly horrible sins, while overlooking many others that they themselves don't consider to be "as bad". Overexposure to the sun or laying in tanning beds, overeating, eating too much of certain things, etc, etc. To much sun is known to cause melanomas which are attributed to many cancer deaths each year, overeating or eating too much fatty foods, etc. contributes to obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and on and on..yet most people don't consider these activities to be "sin".
I've heard it said, "I'd rather meet up with a fat guy on the road than somebody who's had a glass of wine."
Reply:..yea me too, unless of course the fat guy has his cell phone in one hand and a Big Mac in the other, or he strokes out or has a heart attack behind the wheel..get my point?...just some food for thought.
Billy, have you not heard that the temple of the Holy Spirit is now the believer In Jesus Christ? Shame on you for calling the building at bellevue The TEMPLE. That is basic, elementary doctrine, that every believer ought to know.
However, you may just be a new believer, and have not yet read the Bible.
Billy, you have also misrepresented the remarks and twisted the discussion concerning smoking. Why should that surprise anyone? WHy is it impossible to have sm honest conversation with those whom you do not agree with? Why argue and fight just for the sake of being contentious, billy?
FYI billy, we left Bellevue becausse of the arrogant pride of the leadership. All the problems Bellevue is facing is due to one and only one sin: Pride. The interesting thing about pride billy is that you cannot see it in yourself.
Just so Billie knows, BBC has been witnessing to anyone who would open their door and listen every Tuesday night and most Saturday mornings for the last 20 years through EE. It matter not what race, economic background, or anything else for that matter - we just wanted to share the love of Christ that we all had experienced with anyone who would listen. Anybody who thinks that my family would WANT to leave our church and the ministries we loved so much is mistaken - it has ripped our hearts out, BUT, we knew that we had to remain true to what Christ called us to - obedience to His WORD. If we have to leave BBC to do that, we are willing. Our loyalty is to Christ Jesus first and foremost. The leadership at BBC has shocked and disappointed us to such a degree that we can hardly recognize the people we served with for so many years. How is it that they don't know what the Word teaches in so many areas?!?!
Well since smoking is banned in most public places now as the Mall, Resturants,even some Bars (So I have heard)hospitals etc. Maybe smoking will be common place in church now. Instead of passing the offering plate. Pass the ash tray please :)
rod:
Why argue and fight just for the sake of being contentious, billy?
...FYI billy, we left Bellevue becausse of the arrogant pride of the leadership. All the problems Bellevue is facing is due to one and only one sin: Pride.
Mr. Almond,
I certainly agree that pride can be insidious. It refuses to admit to mistakes, and it won't listen to the counsel of others.
Many (if not all) of our current problems are due to pride. I wonder how different things would be today if we were to truly humble ourselves?
larrymemphis@yahoo.com
Boy, Miss Billie really knows how to stir the pot. She makes an off the wall comment and the claws come out and the fangs are on display. Don't you see that she just likes to rattle a few cages. Also, someone used the words hegelian-dialectic. What???????
Lwood said...
Well since smoking is banned in most public places now as the Mall, Resturants,even some Bars (So I have heard)hospitals etc. Maybe smoking will be common place in church now. Instead of passing the offering plate. Pass the ash tray please :)
9:16 PM, August 28, 2007
The smoking ban takes effect state wide Oct. 1.
I heard an interesting comment this morning on the Glenn Beck radio show.
He posed the question: "Why do we need rock music and smoke machines to worship God? Why can't we just let God be God. We don't need to make God hip. He is and he isn't hip already. He doesn't need to be "improved".
Additionally he said God is all things to all people. This part I'm not so sure about. But the general point he was trying to make is sound.
An excerpt I found particularly instructive from the "Anonymous Letter":
"Read Mt. 11:20-23, 15:3-12, 16:21-23 and Luke 11:29-54. Christ created disunity many times in many ways with many different people. His main area of disunity was with the religious leaders. Those from whom “the anointing is to flow to the people.” Because Dr. Gaines gave only one side of the unity issue, he labels everyone who disagrees with him, as being worldly minded and devoid of the Holy Spirit. This is pretext at it’s worst - using the Bible to beat up those who disagree with you and who cannot respond because the attack is made in a sermon from the pulpit. If Christ came to create disunity, how can Dr. Gaines say disunity is a sign of spiritual immaturity? He cannot – in any degree of honesty. In Mt. 10:34-36 and Luke 12:49-53, who is the spiritually immature – Christ or Dr. Gaines? It is obvious at this point that Dr. Gaines is using this sermon to try to silence anyone and everyone who disagrees with him. Dr. Gaines is trying to recruit supporters who will, in turn, try to silence those who disagree with him."
Karen, I think you are correct. Now does seem like the time when those who have been careful, tenderhearted, long suffering, and patient, must stop wrestling with the possibilities and "face the music". We are to follow Christ AND we are to have leaders, who we can imitate, (Paul instructed the Corinthians: “Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.” I Cor. 11:1), so as to learn the correct way in which to follow Christ. We are to "support" leaders who are the best examples of following Christ so that we can with confidence recommend their obedience, as an example, to each other and especially our children.
Those who have “held on” may continue for a while, but so many more, having considered the content of Dr. Gaines’ messages and then studied the scriptures like never before, will lead their families to safety.
Please remember that we are to pray for one another…. Leave no one out on purpose. Pray scripture carefully, especially for any one who preaches or teaches scripture out of context.
My life’s desire is that what ever I think, say or do be done to the glory of God. I encourage no one to follow me or my ideas…. Follow Christ and make sure you serve and worship where you can be led to follow Christ in absolute obedience to the whole council of the word of God. Period.
Oh for the love of God my Father, may each person who reads this be like minded in Christ according to every word of God while rejecting every personal/subjective addition to the scriptures, which will appeal to their fleshly unredeemed nature. Amen
Padroc
Billie, that's just absolute nonsense.
Who said smokers were not welcome at Bellevue? Who said they wouldn't share their faith with smokers? Nobody did! But that doesn't mean they can't show a little self restraint and enough respect to not smoke on campus.
And why are you bringing race into this? That's ridiculous!
Talk about a straw-man argument.
BTW, why is asking too many questions worse than smoking? After all, those of us who have asked too many questions are the ones who are truly no longer welcome at Bellevue. We are the ones who have been written off. Some have been outright kicked out! Where was your outrage then?
Whatever. Nice of you to check in. Say Hi to SG for us.
Amazed said, " Also, someone used the words hegelian-dialectic. What???????"
The Hegelian dialectic is the framework for guiding our thoughts and actions into conflicts that lead us to a predetermined solution. Brainwashing. This is the tool used in ‘helping people leave’ the churches. Divide and conquer. More great things coming out of Church Transitioning, Inc and Warrenisn. Carl Marx used Hegel’s theory of the dialectic to back up his theory of communism.
You can learn more on this subject at http://nord.twu.net/acl/dialectic.html. Paul Proctor also has a good article on this subject and how it is used in the churches today to bring about disorder in order to meet the horrific desired results.
housewife:
standing O!!!
well said!!!!
Larry, Jesus Christ is the definition of humility, and when we study His Words and His actions, for the most part, if they were said and done today, in todays chruch, they would be considered outrageous and "unloving". Therefore, we, as followers of the Messiah have to know what humility really looks like. In my opinion, at this time in my life, humility is to hear HIM with blood tipped ears and submit to Him and follow HIM. When the LION of JUDAH roars, we listen, we follow and we DIE TO SELF. Now, that may look like throwing tables over in the public arena. Or that may may look like being invited over to the pharisee leaders home and telling them to their faces that they are white washed on the outside but dead mans bones on the inside. That might look like weeping over those you love or manifest itself in dividing families and chruches.
There MUST be divisions among us. Why? So that ears can hear and discern what is truth and what is the evil lie.
There is a huge difference from a "goodie goodie two shoes" who doesn't want to hurt someones FEELINGS, and those who listen and are lead by the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Most christians who are wanting to be spoon fed and comfortable in their pew do not know how to discern that from humility.
Humility: there is only one will in the universe and it is God's. Period. Therefore, die to self, and keep on dying to self and follow after HIM>
Can you hear it? Thunder in the distance. Can you hear HIM? The Lion of Judah roars. Strongholds crumble, all around the true believers, who live in the presence of the LORD. He is coming.
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