Information about the 2007 SBC Annual Meeting, including resolutions, photos, and links to the live internet feed, can be found here.The associated blog is here.
Wade Burleson's motion regarding a study (what's there to study?) about the feasibility of the SBC maintaining a list of sexual predator ministers from within its ranks:
Preventing Child Abuse Is A Calling For Us All
At the San Antonio Convention this Tuesday morning, at 8:40 a.m., I [Wade Burleson] plan to introduce the following motion:
“I move that the Southern Baptist Convention requests the Executive Committee to conduct a feasibility study concerning the development of a database of Southern Baptist ministers who have been credibly accused of, personally confessed to, or legally been convicted of sexual harrassment or abuse, and that such a database be accessible to Southern Baptist churches in order to assist in preventing any future sexual abuse or harrassment.”
640 comments:
1 – 200 of 640 Newer› Newest»I didn't see Steve's name anywhere on the schedule.
Doesn't he usually speak or do something more than attend???
Since he feels no guilt or shame,he has no problem going.
And since the other ministers don't have the conviction or courage to hold him accountable...
why would he be embarrassed to show his face.
Awwww!!! Don't let him go to Texas!
Remember the Alamo!
A special "sheep" prize to the first person to locate a photo of Steve Gaines in the photo pages of that site. Bonus points will be awarded if Mrs. Gaines and/or other BBC messengers appear in the same photo.
oc,
I have a feeling the Alamo will never be the same!
Hasn't he ruined enough stuff in Tennessee?
oc,
I was referring to the whole bunch (and in a non-critical way), not any one person in particular. Get that many Southern Baptist ministers together in one place, and things are bound to be interesting. I imagine alcohol sales will be down in San Antonio area restaurants this week. Appearances, you know.
Somewhat related and bound to open a can of worms is this.
gmommy,
The profileless troll has left the building.
The music is freakie!!!! Sending to son...he will get a kick out of it!!!
nass,your quick !
Yes, the music does add a nice touch, doesn't it? If you click on some of the links at the bottom of that page, there's more.
karen,
Are you getting the 2 emails I've sent you???
You know, I am trying my best not to sound critical, and I so appreciate the needed step Wade Burlison is taking, but why does it need to be studied? A database could be up and going within an hour. You know that somewhere is a list (just do a google news search if you have to) to begin with, and go from there. This is a serious issue, one that has received negative press nationally, and I believe it needs to be addressed in a strong, definitive way.
gmommy said...
karen,
Are you getting the 2 emails I've sent you???
1:19 AM, June 12, 2007
Yup, got them and responded - I hope! :)
NBBCOF,
What picture page? On SBC.net or on Burlison's page?
I want a Serta sheep if I win, k??
Or the sheep from this website:
http://www.sleepsheepandfriends.com
karen
Nass: You needing some gas for that trolling motor? Apparently we have some visitors that can only slam, not discuss. What a shame.
To reinterate my point, sexually abusive leadership need to be identified so other churches do not put children in danger unknowingly.
Southern Baptists belonging to Free Masons? Well, our president is one, isn't he? Or he belongs to that Harvard thing - Skull & Bones or some such mess.
And that music was freaky - I had to go back and turn up on speakers. VERY SPOOOKY!
And NASS will spank me for this, but WHY: the Freemason website is relevant because it lists Southern Baptists who are members of Free Masons. I know you still don't get it, but some of us care about SBC becoming too liberal - even if you don't.
karen
That music's gonna creep me out all day. Thanks, Nass ...
gmommy,
check your alternate emails for my response.
karen :)
There's even creepier music deeper into that website if you want to scare yourself this morning! :)
karen
concernedsbcer wrote:
"You know, I am trying my best not to sound critical, and I so appreciate the needed step Wade Burlison is taking, but why does it need to be studied?"
My sentiments exactly (as parenthetically noted in the topic heading). It reminds me of the government spending millions of dollars on "studies" to see if something is feasible when common sense dictates it is. As the Nike folks say, "Just do it!"
Even if this motion is approved, it sounds as if it will only be a "request" that the Executive Committee conduct a study. And we all know how much a good "study" costs and how long it takes. Apparently in reality, the SBC, as we've been reminded repeatedly, "exists" only while the annual meeting is in session and has no authority over the local church. (Not saying this is a bad thing.) So if the messengers do vote for the EC to do a study, what authority does anyone have to make sure they actually do it? And if they do it, it will be another year before the convention reconvenes where they'd then likely have to vote to form a committee to study who's going to compile and maintain this database. Then it would probably take another year for that committee to report back with their findings. And so on....
I applaud Mr. Burleson for his concern and efforts and that he included "sexual harrassment" in his motion. Child molesters aren't the only sexual predators among the SBC's ministerial ranks. This is a good start. It's just frustrating to see bureaucracy in action once again. It's congress, just on a smaller scale.
According to this, Mr. Burleson made his motion this morning as planned. And they didn't shut down the meeting! Wow!
forgive my ignornace but explain the entity vote and the purpose of the creed motion please.
If your going to say that something is a FACT, you need to provide evidence that PROVES, the FACT. Otherwise one does nothing more than spout invective derived from false Pride.
Why,
I don't know who you are but I am very impressed with your wisdom. I also understand why you do what you do: You really care for those who are in need of help and you are doing the great commission. Keep up the good work, remain steadfast in your position!
whyne wrote (before I deleted it):
"We should only be consumed with Christ and our relationship with Him, not STUFF, no matter what the STUFF is."
And I suppose you are a living example of this? You're consumed with something, all right.
oc said...
Hasn't he ruined enough stuff in Tennessee?
12:40 AM, June 12, 2007
What has he ruined? The social club house for some people? What a shame, he should hide his face for doing that to you!!!!
Many say: """"THANK YOU BROTHER STEVE FOR ALLOWING THE LORD TO USE YOU TO RID OUR CONGREGATION OF FALSE IDOLS SO THAT WE CAN BECOME THE HOUSE OF PRAYER WHICH DR. ROGERS PRAYED THAT WE WOULD BECOME""""""
HISUNSENHAND:
If we have yet to become a house of prayer, how do you know that the decisions made by the leadership of Bellevue Baptist since the retirement of Dr. Rogers are the correct ones?
Were the decisions made in the FLESH and not the SPIRIT?
Are all of those that have left the church agents of Satan?
How do you know that YOU have not been afflicted with the same lack of spiritual understanding that you claim of those whose viewpoint is not in agreement with you?
How do you know with certainty that YOU are not the problem?
Are these not legitemate questions that should be answered or should we just take your word?
Wonderful questions, aslansown! Wonder if they'll get answered.
NASS! Can I say "bite me" to someone on your blog? PLEASE, just once!
karen
From Frank Page's message to the SBC this morning:
“… When we speak the truth without love, it leads to a cold-hearted legalism that our world has come to say is the caricature of the Christian. … But when you speak love without the truth, it leads to a cold-hearted liberalism that leads people to be bereft of the truth and direction. God wants balance. He wants us to speak the truth in love, and that applies to us – whether you blog or don’t blog, whether you use the phone or don’t use the phone, whether you’re having a hallway conversation or whether you’re speaking in a hush tone somewhere else, or whether you’re just using two tin cans and a wax string. I don’t care how you do it – God wants us to speak the truth in love. Satan wants to steal the godly balance.
LOVE IT!
Thanks Karen,
Maybe Mrs. Higgy can answer the first question for us?
Great message by Frank!!
You are seeing His hand. Unfortunately, you apparently don't have enough WORD in you to realize the apostacy and judgement you are swimming in.
Get into the WORD. Ask for the Baptism of fire and Holy Spirit.
Steve is not tearing down a club he is building one. The same kind the pharisees and scribes had. Wake up.
Stop worshipping a man. Turn to JESUS. The WORD
Frank Page is amazing and after contemplating his message during my lunch, I need to say something.
Why can't we know all the answers to the questions we seek from BBC leadership? I called the church yesterday and spoke to a minister who answered my questions the best he could. Some of the answers I got, I didn't agree with, but at least I got them answered. We spoke for about 15 minutes and though we saw things differently, we still are friends and he prayed for us at the end of our conversation. Folks, that is a TRUE example of Christ to me. He listened and didn't condemn me for my views; he truly listened and for that, I am grateful.
Those of you who don't agree with me or others on this blog don't have to come around and demonize us for our opinions and the truth that comes from this forum. If you don't like it, don't read it, don't comment on it, but don't bash us online, on another blog or in your Sunday School class or wherever.
There is NOTHING wrong with asking questions of church leadership - if there were, don't you think the discerning people on this blog would have gotten the word by now? Do you really think those who question leadership are doing Satan's work? If we feel we are doing God's Will in our lives, who are you to dispute that? Who are you to tell us to shut up and stop the harrassment of Steve Gaines? If God tells me to do one thing and you (a human) tell me not to, who do you think I'm gonna follow?
karen
How can we be a House of Prayer if the pastor can't be honest with simple questions?
How can we be a House of Prayer if the moneymen of Bellevue refuse to be honest with how God's money is being spent?
How can we be a House of Prayer if pedophile preachers are allowed to remain in their position?
How can we be a House of Prayer when our very own pastor and his closest followers jump NO TRESPASSING fences?
How can we be a House of Prayer when Godly staff are being run off?
How can we be a House of Prayer when $money$ drives every decision made?
If we want to become a House of Prayer, open the curtains, hide nothing, reverse any wrongs that have been committed, repent, and start the healing process.
If these things don't happen, it's over.
God will not honor what's going on by the current leadership.
Interesting article on MSNBC right now:
Click here
Karen and NathanB,
AMEN and AMEN!
alansown said:
Are all of those that have left the church agents of Satan?
How do you know that YOU have not been afflicted with the same lack of spiritual understanding that you claim of those whose viewpoint is not in agreement with you?
How do you know with certainty that YOU are not the problem?
Are these not legitemate questions that should be answered or should we just take your word?
12:03 PM, June 12, 2007
HisunseenHand comments:
Are all those who remains at Bellevue and loves our pastor, agents of Satan?
How do you know that you have not been afflicted with the same lack of understanding """"
How do YOU know that you are not the problem?
Should we just take your word?
Do you not realize that the very questions you have raised are the very questions that many have ask of you and your blogging friends?
How do I know for certain that you are wrong? The Bible tells me so
If you were right you would love Brother Steve and for certain you would not be calling him names and mocking him. Think about it! who most resembles Christ? This is a no brainer! Sorry, but truth hurts.
Maybe someone from "the other side" of these issues will have a reasoned, loving response to my previous questions.
My post was not sarcasm. What in the world are they thinkin?
HISUNSEENHAND:
Verse and chapter please.
Karen,
the difference between what is happening and simply "asking questions" is this- many on this blog are openly condemning those who don't agree. Those that are left have been called "weak" and "shallow" and "baby Christians" or "lacking discernment".
And like I have said on "another blog"- if you are using the outlet for your pain and frustration to hurt another person, I will never be okay with that. I have seen men who have spent their lives serving God thrown under the bus because they don't conform to the views held here (G. Hauss comes to mind).
And I am really not sure how "if you don't like it, don't read it" is all that different from "if you don't like it, leave".
From the article "socwork" referenced:
"Bill Leonard, dean of the Wake Forest University Divinity School in North Carolina and longtime observer of Southern Baptist life, said the convention is in a precarious position because if it acknowledges an oversight role on curbing abuse, it exposes itself to lawsuits.
"'I think that's the whole issue,' said Leonard, a critic of the convention's conservative leadership. 'All you have to do is look at the Catholic Church and the bankrupt dioceses to see that's the fear.'"
Does this not illustrate what the problem has been all along? If we admit this atrocity has been going on within churches in the SBC, we might be... sued! So let's just continue to pretend there's not a problem and leave it up to the individual churches to police themselves. Then when pastors like Steve Gaines defend and cover for these perverts, we can say, "It's not our responsibility. Each church is responsible for the actions of its own staff." Leave it up to the individual churches to "out" the perverts when they move on to greener pastures. Does anyone really believe this is going to happen?
This, ladies and gentlemen, is the "good old boy network" in action. Grab broom. Assume the position. Lift rug... now sweep! Attaboy! Heh heh heh. "It's not our problem anymore." Out of sight; out of mind, ad nauseum. Amen.
To say that questioning the decisions and actions of ecclesiastical authority is to deny the effectiveness of the reformation, the recent move toward conservatism in the SBC that Dr. Rogers led and Paul's example when he confronted Peter (see Gal.2:11-14).
The problem we face is not one of "speaking the truth in love", but rather a leadership that refuses to admit any part in our present troubles. I sense that same attitude in your reply.
Go back and reread the questions I posed. When did I say that those that fully support Dr. Gaines are agents of Satan?
Socwork,
Thanks for the link.
To loosely paraphrase Bill Leonard's comments: The SBC can acknowledge the problem of abuse and risk bankruptcy or remain silent and keep the bean counters happy.
What about truth and integrity?
So there we have it, folks. The SBC bean counters must be kept well fed no matter the horrific cost to all the innocent lives at stake.
May God have mercy...
Mary
HisUnseenHand said...
Why,
I don't know who you are but I am very impressed with your wisdom. I also understand why you do what you do: You really care for those who are in need of help and you are doing the great commission. Keep up the good work, remain steadfast in your position!
REPLY: Looks like Why either has a new blog name or unseen is a relative of Why. Another one who needs medication and counseling.
Why really cares for those in need of help?? I guess he cares for himself then....and unseen too.
How is Why doing the great commission??? Maybe the great Ommission but not commission.
googly moogly.
11:27 AM, June 12, 2007
NASS: You said it perfectly! Amen.
bepatient wrote:
"And I am really not sure how 'if you don't like it, don't read it' is all that different from 'if you don't like it, leave'."
Oh, get a grip, please. There's a huge difference. This is a blog for pete's sake. No one has put a penny into building it. No one has sacrificed anything for it. (Okay, some of us have sacrificed a little sleep and some spare time.) Bellevue has been a home to people for years, and many have sacrificed their time and money and invested in it on so many levels -- emotionally, physically, spiritually -- many for decades. They've raised their families there, some for several generations, and they've formed relationships there.
All this to have one power-hungry, narcissistic man and his little band of merry millionaires come along and tear it down. I'm sure someone can and will explain it much more eloquently than I, but surely you must understand, even on a very basic level, how different it is for supporters of SG and his agenda to tell their fellow members "if you don't like it, leave" and gently suggesting to someone reading a blog, a blog that didn't even exist eight months ago, to just not read it if they don't like it. On the one hand they keep saying we're just "a handful of dissenters who don't like the music." But on the other hand they keep coming here to bash us. It doesn't make any sense. I mean, why bother? Which now that I think about it might be a good screen name for a certain troll... "why bother."
Unseen,
Steve Gaines mocked Bellevue Baptist Church at Gardendale and Union City. Please don't say we mock him in an unGodly way - he does dumb stuff worth mocking. Please tell me what Steve Gaines could have said to you to make you climb a 41" fence in defiance of the posted "No Trespassing" signs. I want to know how that happens - yes, hindsight is 20/20, but being smart is foresight!
karen
bepatient,
This all started with Richard Emerson asking questions about the bylaws. Please don't fool yourself into thinking the questions started after savingbellevue or this blog came into being. Please! This started with questions and the questions continue. If the questions were answered truthfully on the front end - about 2 years ago - you and I would not be having this conversation.
karen
HisunseenHand comments from 3:14pm:
Are all those who remains at Bellevue and loves our pastor, agents of Satan?
Reply:
The answer to your question is absolutely not. You use the word "all" and of course all are not.
However, for anyone else who willingly knows what has gone on behind closed doors and is aware of what has been lied about to the congregation, I would not want to be in their shoes.
You may not be one of these people but there are many of our leaders who stand firmly with Steve Gaines who are in this group.
Since many of these men are leaders, others in the church look to them for guidance. This is the dangerous part of being a leader. You will always have people who follow you. It's absolutely essential as a leader that you are heading the right direction because your followers may not always know or want to take the effort to find out for themselves the best direction.
There's a huge difference between someone who supports their pastor because they want to believe the pastor and leadership have been above reproach vs. people who support the pastor knowingly in spite of wrong.
The turmoil going on at Bellevue is the result of leadership who know what the Bible says about honesty but continue to refuse to
embrace a policy of openness, transparency, and integrity.
So to answer your question, I'd have to say maybe maybenot. It depends on which side of the fence you stand on.
I do know what the Bible says about the qualifications of a pastor, deacon, and leader in the church. I also know what the Bible says about honesty.
nathanb:
You have mail.
NASS,
Whenever I see any of his many screen names, a little bell goes off when I'm tempted to read and possibly reply -- why bother?!!
Mary
concerned,
You have mail!
karen
Asking questions of your leaders is neither mocking, nor hateful, nor in any way inappropriate.
Not asking questions (ie. blindly following) creates narcissistic "leaders" whose interests are not those of his people, but those of himself.
be patient said
the difference between what is happening and simply "asking questions" is this- many on this blog are openly condemning those who don't agree. Those that are left have been called "weak" and "shallow" and "baby Christians" or "lacking discernment".
Piglet says:
The open sinful behaviour of specific individuals in leadership have been exposed and condemned on this blog - rightfully so. What are we to think of those who agree with the issues discussed here - see the open sin and stay to reap the benefits but do nothing to oppose the wrongdoing?
There are those finishing their commitments, striving to "reason" with those off the narrow path and those who leave after SS or are visiting around. But what are we to think of those who stay to retain a paycheck or a respected position, or just because the location is good, when the cost is to turn a blind eye and keep your mouth shut? You make that call.
Be Patient said:
And like I have said on "another blog"- if you are using the outlet for your pain and frustration to hurt another person, I will never be okay with that. I have seen men who have spent their lives serving God thrown under the bus because they don't conform to the views held here (G. Hauss comes to mind).
Piglet says:
What is "thrown under the bus"? I have seen many comments praising Greg H. but also those who are concerned with what appears to be inconsistency on his behalf. I think this has been discussed openly and honestly - with his response to the issue getting a hearing also.
Be honest - we've seen men we trusted do some horrible things this past year and thumbing their noses at the congregation, lying, breaking the law, subjecting our kids to a pedophile, shutting down business meetings - I believe they have hurled themselves into the traffic for the most part.
Be Patient said:
And I am really not sure how "if you don't like it, don't read it" is all that different from "if you don't like it, leave".
Piglet says:
Well, I for one, think you have a right to your opinion, however different from mine - and a right to voice it.
I DO believe that the church is vastly different from a blog and the blog is not a place for everyone. There are some who don't need to be here and should leave if all they desire to do is cause trouble or are looking for an offense.
God commands us not to forsake the assembly, but does not command us to blog.
NASS said
All this to have one power-hungry, narcissistic man and his little band of merry millionaires come along and tear it down. I'm sure someone can and will explain it much more eloquently than I, but surely you must understand, even on a very basic level, how different it is for supporters of SG and his agenda to tell their fellow members "if you don't like it, leave" and gently suggesting to someone reading a blog, a blog that didn't even exist eight months ago, to just not read it if they don't like it.
Piglet says:
Not possible to be more eloquent!!
Loved your whole post!!
NASS, when I grow up, I want to be just like you! :0)
Piglet's been moonlighting!
http://www.centurynovelty.com/detail_296_092-109.html
sorry! :@)
karen
God tells us not to forsake assembly, be he does not tell us where to assemble. You are not required to go to BBC just as I am not required to come to this blog.
When those that support your views are caught in "inconsistencies" it is simply swept under the rug as "don't shoot the messenger".
But we have been down this road many many times before and we all know how it is going to end so I going to suggest we continue to agree to disagree!
But just as someone pointed out about Steve Gaines' last message- whenever you point at someone else there are 4 fingers pointing back at you. And the only people we can control are ourselves. I am doing the best I can, but I can certainly find fault with things I have done (and still do). I have made a purposeful attempt to refrain from posting about the NBBCOF in the past little while an effort to thwart a "war of the blogs". That is all I can do, pray and be on MY best behavior.
Actually, when one points at another, only three fingers point back to yourself. Unless you have some sort of genetic mutation that I'm unaware of. :P
Now... to recognize something as unbiblical, and to call it such, does not mean that the person doing the "calling out" thinks that they too are without sin. For if this was the prerequisite of practicing discernment, none of us would qualify.
Awww, piglet. Thank you. Actually, I thought you put it much more succinctly when you said, "God commands us not to forsake the assembly, but does not command us to blog."
Or not to blog...
socwork wrote:
"Actually, when one points at another, only three fingers point back to yourself. Unless you have some sort of genetic mutation that I'm unaware of. :P"
Such as if you're a Loney?
Such as if you're a Loney?
Precisely!
I was snooping around SBC.net and saw the name Roger Spradlin? Is he a relation of Mike's?
Karen
bepatient said
whenever you point at someone else there are 4 fingers pointing back at you.
This is so true (I mean, except for the 4 fingers part).
You should never ever point out when a preacher preaches wrong or incorrectly from the pulpit, because you too, have "fingers pointing back at you".
You should never point at a German or Iraqi Dictator who murders Jews or Kurds and point out how he is wrong, because, you have "fingers pointing back at you".
When some backwoods towelhead murders 3000 Americans in cold blood, who are you to condem him? Just be mindful of the three (or 4) fingers pointing back at you.
When an American President lies under oath, equivocates about what the the meaning of "Is" is, persues legislation and policy that is ungodly, unbibilical, unethical and down right harmful, you should never speak up and "point it out", because you will have "fingers pointing back at you".
When Jesus "pointed at" the Pharisees and Sadducees in Matthew 16, he was wrong, because "he had three (or four) fingers pointed back at him.
("But we are supposed to be like Jesus" you may protest. According to BePatient, you shouldn't be like Jesus if being like Jesus means pointing out when the pastor preaches error. Which lately isn't that difficult to do)
Thanks BePatient, for your wise words of caution.
Speaking of Dr. Spradlin, anyone else seen the big picture of him on the billboard at Lamar and American way?
Finance Guy,
I would gladly take Bill and Monika back, after the crackerjack job these present folks are doing.
But then, I'm a librul.
Just say'n.
;HisUnseenHand said...
What has he ruined? The social club house for some people? What a shame, he should hide his face for doing that to you!!!!
Many say: """"THANK YOU BROTHER STEVE FOR ALLOWING THE LORD TO USE YOU TO RID OUR CONGREGATION OF FALSE IDOLS SO THAT WE CAN BECOME THE HOUSE OF PRAYER WHICH DR. ROGERS PRAYED THAT WE WOULD BECOME""""""
-----------
I have been told on several occasions: "Those who are leaving are immature/baby Christians." Yet, the majority of those whom I know personally who have left were the spiritual giants of the church for several decades. Only the Lord knows the investment they have made for His kingdom thru their service at Bellevue. These servants of the Lord have left quietly after months of speaking the truth in love without any acknowledgement of their concerns.
I would ask you this: If Bellevue is being cleansed of the "idol worshipers", where is the evidence of God's blessings upon the present state of the church?
All I see are classrooms and hallways that are now at least half empty, and rows upon rows of empty seats during both morning services. People who once were overflowing with joy are now talking in whispers and the tension is so thick you could cut it with a knife. Bellevue, once the powerful leader of the SB churches is now frail and faltering - a shadow of what she once was. If God is pleased with the cleansing of the church from the "idol worshipers" can you please explain to me, dear HisUnseenHand, why Bellevue is not flourishing, and exploding with new members?
hisunseenhand said,
oc said...
Hasn't he ruined enough stuff in Tennessee?
12:40 AM, June 12, 2007
What has he ruined? The social club house for some people? What a shame, he should hide his face for doing that to you!!!!
Many say: """"THANK YOU BROTHER STEVE FOR ALLOWING THE LORD TO USE YOU TO RID OUR CONGREGATION OF FALSE IDOLS SO THAT WE CAN BECOME THE HOUSE OF PRAYER WHICH DR. ROGERS PRAYED THAT WE WOULD BECOME""""""
oc says: I'm so glad you called me out. Now you have to deal with me. I guess I'm the bad boy of the blog. So vent on me. I can take it.
So tell me, how has 'brother' Steve contributed to the honor of Dr.Rogers? By silencing the'amener'? By slight of hand credit card abuse? By jumping an 'itty bitty' fence to try to intimidate a member? By allowing his goons to intimidate and traumatize a 15 yr old girl? By trying to avoid the fact he harbored a child molester? Dr. Rogers would have had nothing to do with this behavior, and would have denounced it as it is, as sin. Have you lost your mind to think that Dr.Rogers would give 'Bro. Steve' a pass on all that? Think again, smart guy. You do a great disservice to a real man of God.
Furthermore, the very people that your idol Steve is purging from the congregation are the very souls whom God loves. Those who won't wink at sin anywhere, and that includes in the pulpit. And they have paid a huge price.
Have you not read the pain in the posts of this blog? How can you waltz in here and in the midst of the hurting give praise and adoration to the one who has caused so much pain and embarrassment? False idol? I think you have one. Pump his ego, he's not arrogant enough yet.
oc.
Oh! And what am I thinking? How could I forget the Scripture qualifications for a minister which magically became 'guidelines' under master Steve? Who gave him the encouragement to over rule God on this one? Would that be you?
socwork said...
Such as if you're a Loney?
Precisely!
4:43 PM, June 12, 2007
Ah-ha! Jill showed you that...huh?
Ah-ha! Jill showed you that...huh?
Ah.......
Um.......
Ah.......
I plead the fifth.
Why,
Why don't you take your ascinine comments and go somewhere else? Seriously, your sounding like a broken record. Why do you even bother coming here if all your going to do is talk smack? Don't you have other things to do in your parents basement?
Well, I notice no one jumped on Tim for saying "4" fingers, and I was just quoting him...
feel free to go back to the last thread and check.
The point is not that you should never point, just that you should be mindful of your own actions while you do so. Like I said, all the pointing in the world will not change anyone, all you can do is change yourself or remove yourself from the situation. It is the first thing anyone will tell you when you are in a situation where someone else is doing you harm or treating you unfairly.
Why ner asks,
OC: Are you 2 years old?
Oh yeah, here we go. You, of all people, want to start an intellectual discussion? Good luck finding ammo.
No, I'm not 2 years old. Now what is your next question which will get you even deeper into showing your stupidity?
why said the "c" word.
his unseen hand
You can refer to me as an immature Christian that The Lord is cleansing from his church if you wish, HOWEVER, the TRUTH is that i am REPULSED by the fact that SG allowed a pedaphile to stay on staff and then stated that he felt compassion for the pedaphile.
The fact that it's no big deal to you makes me look at you very suspiciously.
Do you, by chance, work with children?
I hope not.
I have a new policy: anyone who supports SG and thinks that pedophilia is no big deal, has no business being around my children.
You cannot support SG AND be disgusted with pedophilia. You must choose one.
I see which one you have chosen.
Good luck with your eternal life.
why said
If you do not like the direction Bellevue is going, you do not need to demonize, attack, etc etc etc etc. Just go and leave us alone, how about that. You and others sound like a big bunch of cry babies.
Piglet says:
Talk about babies. I remember when my competitive son was little and he was losing a game - he'd change the rules.
We have grown men at BBC doing just that. We are SUPPOSED to have business meetings where grievances can be heard, questions answered - but NOPE. The rules were changed and we don't do that anymore.
We are supposed to have a look see at the books anytime we wish so there is financial accountability -but NOPE. We don't get to see those books regardless of what the law says unless we go to COURT.
I'll ask you again, Why. How come no meetings and no open books?
We don't have to LEAVE if we don't like it - we can CHANGE IT BECAUSE WE ARE CONGREGATIONALLY APPROVED.
Or we were until THAT rule got changed.
Who's acting like a spoiled brat here?!! Some folks mamas didn't teach them how to follow the rules. :(
SOTL, Piglet,
You go ladies...Rock on!!!
Be Patient said
Like I said, all the pointing in the world will not change anyone, all you can do is change yourself or remove yourself from the situation. It is the first thing anyone will tell you when you are in a situation where someone else is doing you harm or treating you unfairly.
Piglet says:
The problem is, it's NOT just me.
Need I retell my story of the old lady being assaulted? I shouldn't remove myself. I should call the police and then bean the mugger until he stops or the police arrive.
If Steve broke into my house I would not hand him the deed and the keys and move. He has broken into the Lord's house and is ransacking it, laying to waste all that generations have given to build. Heaven forbid we not grab a frying pan and let him have it on the noggin!!
WHY
If you want a private chat with Karen, try email.
WHY says
Bellevue would need to install Adult diaper changing stations in the halls if many of you stayed.
Piglet says:
Now THAT'S dealing with the issues head on.
Anyone ever teach you how to deal with conflict in a mature manner? You stick to the ISSUES and dispense with personal attacks.
NASS, Why is misbehaving again. Put him in the corner.
Oh, thanks NASS. I see you were way ahead of me. :)
piglet,
I already took out the trash. Then you quoted it. Thank you so much! :-)
Oops, NASS. There he is again. Get the roach spray...
(did I say that or just think it?)
I was trying to stick to the issues, but this guy is really BUGGING me...
How interesting. We're getting hits on the blog from San Antonio tonight. Howdy, y'all!!!
San Antonio! WhaaaHooo!!!
Hook 'em Long horns!!!!
oc,
Gig 'em.
Nass.
Aggie!!!!
Just testing, trying to be "open" and fair to all. Besides, who would admit that?
Hey y'all from San Antonio...... we can deal with these issues together.....
1)pastors who abuse can be registered and can be kept from putting other churches in difficult positions
2)Scripture only should be the basis for missions, for church discipline, for church finances, for the treatment of all believers.
3)Church culture should not be changed unless desired by the congregation.
Just a few thoughts..........
GMommy: You've got mail.
:)
bepatient said...
The point is not that you should never point, just that you should be mindful of your own actions while you do so. Like I said, all the pointing in the world will not change anyone, all you can do is change yourself or remove yourself from the situation. It is the first thing anyone will tell you when you are in a situation where someone else is doing you harm or treating you unfairly.
You are so true. It's the Jews fault they went to the ovens. They should have just "removed themselves from the situation" if the didn't like it. Those silly Jews who fought back in the Warsaw getto where just plain wrong.
Those half-witted Republican Congressmen who tried to hold the President accountable for his wrong-doing. What silliness. They should have just "removed themselves from Washington" or changed themselves (I guess by resigning from Congress) instead of speaking out and filing impeachment charges, i.e. fighting against the wrongdoing.
And in the Bible, when Nathan went to King David and rebuked him, he was wrong. He should have just "removed himself from the situation".
This goes for a whole slew of Old Testament Prophets, from Elijah to Jeremiah and beyond.
They were wrong to point out what was wrong. They should have just "change(d) (themselves) or remove(d) (themselves) from the situation."
To bad they didn't have you around to point this out to them.
BePatient,
I think I can sum up what you've said in countless comments this way:
"It's okay to recognize when things aren't right, someone is doing wrong, etc, but don't speak out too loud, when the offender is someone that I (BePatient) supports, such as the Pastor. If there's a problem, then the proper solution is to just shut up or leave. Don't make any (serious) attempt at correction."
Did I get it right?
The tragedy of 9/11 is fading from memory and apathy has once again set in. The war in Iraq is almost becoming "ho-hum", and apathy has set in. Is there a danger of that happening regarding the spiritual war being waged against our churches? So many in the church would rather be in denial than face the unpleastantness of the war. Apathy is dangerous and insidious. It erodes the very spiritual foundation of a church as well as a nation. Lest we forget:
-Bellevue just two years ago was a strong leader church among the SB churches sending out God's truth and light.
-Bellevue was "a friend of the family and a family of friends."
-Bellevue had not a hint of scandal that could be reported in the local or national news.
-Bellevue was a church to which we could eagerly and joyfully invite others.
-Bellevue was a church that generations of families were raised and nurtured in.
-Bellevue was a church where the classrooms, hallways and sancturary overflowed with members and visitors.
Question: How does Bellevue compare today to two years ago?
Is the new agenda of "rooting out, pulling down, destroying and throwing down" of a strong, healthy,Christ-centered church show evidence of God's blessing?
It does not take a rocket scientist
to discern cause and effect.
"Some removed the landmarks; they violently take away flocks..."
(Job 24:2)
"If the foundations be destroyed,
what can the righteous do?"
(Ps. 11:3)
whyne,
Practicing the Great Commission again? What love and compassion you show! A real shining example you are.
Karen has an e-mail address on her profile. If you have anything to say to her, please e-mail her. Anything you post here will be deleted. Imagine that!
And I'm REALLY bored at work so I wish you'd email me - I've asked you so nicely so many times. :D
karen
Piglet,
This is not a situation where you are in physical danger, and there is a difference.
bepatient wrote:
"This is not a situation where you are in physical danger, and there is a difference."
I wouldn't be too sure. Ask that 15-year-old girl if she felt physically threatened... or Mark Sharpe's children when four large men... okay, three large men and a pipsqueak (affectionately speaking, of course)... climbed their fence and knocked on their door while their parents weren't home.
But you make a good point. Very different and much more important is the spiritual danger that exists. Someone, "piglet" perhaps, please explain this for me. I'm too busy right now to linger!
bepatient,
I understand your point and I understand Piglet's point - that's what makes us each so uniquely made! I just don't understand how fellow church members can turn on each other when a new guy shows up as pastor? Do you see where Steve has had a pattern of this type of behaviors at other churches - West Jackson, Gardendale and now Bellevue? Picuture this: you have problems with co-workers at 3 jobs you've had over the last 10 years. Ok, you quit and go to a new job because of those horrible co-workers (stay with me!). Now step back and look at the 3 companies - all the people you worked with are still at each respective company. Can you not look at yourself and question, "maybe it's me and not them"?
If Steve would step back and examine what HE doing to contribute to the issues at BBC, maybe he'd see where he could improve relationships and heal hurts and bring the sheep back.
I guess I could be bratty and just say hey, I was here first and I'm fighting for my relationships and fellowship I've enjoyed with friends and family at BBC over the years, but that would just be ugly, huh? :)
karen
tick, tick, tick,...........
Still waiting on that email - :)
karen
Soc,
Hopefully "timely and forthright manner" will not be constued at "let's wait six months" to see what happens.
If the SBC convention passed this resolution, does that not prove the need for a database that they want to check the feasability of? Doesn't this prove the feasability without the study?
karen
This piece of news is interesting. I wonder how it will be presented, if at all.
Resolution passes urging 'a spirit of repentance'
Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 9:56:00 AM
Southern Baptist Convention messengers this morning unanimously passed a resolution that “urge[s] Southern Baptists to embrace a spirit of repentance, pursue face-to-face reconciliation where necessary, and enter into a time of fasting and prayer for the lost.”
Titled “On Personal and Corporate Repentance,” the resolution also says that “we humble ourselves in individual and corporate repentance so that we may seek the face of the Lord, that He would become preeminent in our lives, and that the world would see a clear demonstration of His presence in our lives, churches, and denomination.”
aslansown,
I was watching online and missed this resolution. Was this part of the resolution regarding making it a practice of each SB church to make sure their members attend church? Doesn't sound like it, but thought I'd ask anyway. Did you happen to catch that particular proposal?
No surprise here. Especially in light of our own Bellevue experience.
oWednesday, June 13, 2007 - 10:32:00 AM
Messengers this morning declined to debate a resolution by Tom Ascol of Florida concerning church membership and church discipline. The resolution, which Ascol asked messengers to bring to the floor, would have asked Southern Baptists to “repent of our failure to maintain responsible church membership.” It was one of more than 20 resolutions on which the Committee on Resolutions declined to act. Committee Chairman Gerald Harris said the committee felt the resolution would have “infringed upon the honored principle of church autonomy.”
A two-thirds vote was required to bring the resolution to the floor. Via a show of ballots, approximately 40 percent of messengers supported debate on the resolution.
Karen,
They were two seperate issues.
Gotcha - Thanks! Glad you keep me straight
karen
Just curious, how many of you are ready for Bellevue to go to split services, contemporary and traditional. Possibly at the same hours.
Aslansown,
Is this being proposed as an option?
Personally, I don't enjoy contemporary services. I've visted 3 different contemporary services here in Memphis and I didn't really enjoy any of them. It seems a lot of performance is involved and not worship. I attended one where the pastor wore jeans and a golf shirt - call me persnickity of you want to, but I feel God deserves more respect than jeans - a personal preference. I'm not talking about Bellevue at all here, so don't tell me I'm lying or slandering.
karen,
I wonder if, since it's a "resolution," it's along the lines of "if-each-individual-congregation-wants-to-adopt-it-they-can-but-they-don't-have-to."
I do think the resolution is very timely (and a little to "coincidental" to be coincidence... if you get my drift.)
socwork,
I agree - I don't believe in coincidence. It's a direct move in my opinion. I'd be hard pressed to find one SBC committee member that hasn't heard of the PW situation and the report that came from it.
karen
bepatient,
EVERY SINGLE CHILD at BBC during the 6 months that SG KNEW about PW was at risk of physical danger!
Granted, they were also at risk PRIOR to SG's knowledge, but the very fact that SG KNEW about PW and did NOTHING to prevent children from physical and mental harm, makes him an accomplice.
Do NOT say that no one was in physical danger at BBC. To say that is to deny that pedaphiles are dangerous. Surely you don't believe THAT?
TRUST ME ON THIS: When fathers and stepfathers molest their children, there is an accomplice, and that accomplice is the mother. She FAILED to protect her children from the monster in her own home. Do not dispute me on this, I am well versed on this, and have heard this many many many many many many times over the past 30 years within the group therapy and support groups I have attended.
The same thing applies to SG. He FAILED to protect the children in his care. He looked the other way.
Same song, second verse.
If anyone supports SG after he KNOWLINGLY put children in harm's way then I will encourage others to look at those supporters with GREAT suspicion. You CANNOT support and defend SG and still be OUTRAGED over his protecting a pedaphile. You must choose either to BE OUTRAGED, or you must choose to support SG, there is no grey area, there is no middle ground. IT's EITHER/OR.
Would you allow your daughter to go to the home of a friend whose father has admitted to being a child predator?
If the answer is NO, then you are contractdicting yourself in your blind support of SG. If you had KNOWN that PW had admitted to being a child predator, would you have allowed your child () pre-teen) to run up to SS by himself? Would you have allowed him to go to the bathroom by himself? You have to admit that YOUR behavior would have been different HAD YOU KNOWN. Yet, SG did not feel that you NEEDED to know this, so that YOU could properly PROTECT your child. Yet, those of you still defend SG, even though HE put YOUR child at risk. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU??????????
Do you think " so what"... a little molestation never hurt anyone? Do you take it so casually and lightly that it does not hamper your blind support of SG?
Do not be surprised when I learn that someone supports SG and smiles like a cheshire cat, that I will take my child and run away from you as fast as I can go. No further explanation will be necessary. I urge others to do the same. Anyone that is not OUTRAGED over his " compassion" for a pedaphile DESERVES to be put on a
"list" and should be kept away from children.
ANYONE that supports SG is just not offended by pedaphilia. You cannot spin it any other way. Either it repulses you, or it doesn't. Either SG repulses you for his support of a pedaphile, or it doesn't.
If it doesn't repulse you, you should NEVER NEVER EVER be allowed to be around children.
PERIOD.
Socwork and Karen:
The resolutions timeliness is a direct result of the Baptist world closely watching the events at Bellevue. Remember, for many years we were the standard bearer for the convention and others wanted to emulate the lessons we learned. Now they are learning from our inaction and ineptitude.
We have to remember to thank David Brown and Sharla (that's not her name!) Brown for helping the SBC move the issues of child molestation and child abuse by church leaders from the backroom the forefront. Without their courage and strength, this issue could have festered for many years to come.
karen
Christa, not Sharla, Brown - I had to go Google it.
:)
Dear SOTL: Amen sister! Preach on. Trouble is some folks do not want to hear it put the way you did. They will accuse you of being an angry victim still in need of help. We know first hand the horrors of this evil crime. Well SOTL you are not the one in need of help, it is their children and grandchildren.
I praise the messengers of the SBC convention. They got the message, now it is up to the EC to get it. But nothing real has happen yet. They do not need a study. Just do it. Much yet is to be done.
David Brown
SNAP Director: Memphis/West Tennessee
davidbrown@bigriver.net
901/569-4500
Luke 11:4-5 makes it pretty clear that spiritual death or injury is much more problematic than physical death or injury. Spiritual death can occur long before physical death and lasts a lot longer.
The only way to avoid spiritual death is abide in Him and He will abide in you. He is the truth, the Life and the way. If what we do and say every day does not line up with the WORD and His teachings, we are spiritually dead.
It seems the real decision one should make today is who will you serve. Serving any one other than JESUS, the WORD, the King of Kings, Lord of Lords will result in spiritual death. The PIT. The lake of Fire.
It seems we should examine ourselves daily to determine just who we are following. If our leader is saying and doing things that don't line up with the WORD then I would think that we are in grave danger of spritual death. Or already there.
The examination should involve a close look at the WORD. Otherwise, the great deciever of men will use our very own religion to decieve us. Our traditions, and especially our lack of knowledge of the WORD.
In most cases where Jesus was tempted by satan, satan used twisted scripture. Satan knows it well. Don't think he doesn't.
Are you accepting the word of a man behind the pulpit without testing it against the WORD? That is the mistake Israel made. The people believed the pharisees, scribes, tradition and twisted scripture. Do we just have to make the same mistake?
eze,
You are so right - woe to them who believe what Steve Gaines (or any preacher for that matter) says behind the pulpit and won't test it against Scripture. If you are bothered by something a pastor says, you have the obligation to find out for yourself what God says. Just because a guy is a pastor, been to seminary, wears a nice suit, and can charm the birds from the trees in no way makes him the end all and be all of church leadership. If you allow yourself to be taken in, it's your fault if you get taken for a ride. Just ask the followers of Jim Jones - oh wait, you can't ask them anymore, can you?
karen
SOTL,
I'm going to contradict David Brown - one time only:
You are an angry survivor; you're not a victim.
PREACH ON!
karen
Karen: She is much more than that. What I was referring to was how “others” think of us when we speak out. They cannot accept what we say. They contend we are still “sick” and therefore we must still be victims.
No SOTL is not a victim nor is she a survivor. She is an advocate. She is seeking the same thing I and others are. That is for truth and transparency from our religious leaders. That is not too much to ask.
The messengers at the convention certainly saw the need. But please let me point out this is not action yet, just a study. How much money and time is the convention going to waste before it does the right thing? I pray the first time they gather to discuss this; they are led to enact it IMMEDIATELY. What do you think those chances are?
David Brown
SNAP director: Memphis/West Tennessee
davidbrown@bigriver.net
901/569-4500
I wasn't going to post here again, but I can't let you, Mr. why, go unchallenged...you boast as to how many you've led to the LORD...is that scriptural?...if so...prove it...I submit to you that you haven't saved a single soul, but to read your words one would certainly get the impression you think you have. You sir, do not have one iota of righteousness that you can claim as your own...if you do indeed have any righteousness, it is one that is foreign to you...it does not belong to you. That IS scriptural. You sir, are a self-righteous blowhard. I submit to you that on your best day, your prayers, your worship, your very thoughts of God are sinful enough to deserve being cast headlong into hell, just as mine are. You obviously have no concept of the holiness of the LORD whom you claim to reflect, else you wouldn't think so highly of yourself. Do yourself and everyone else a favor and join the other Pharisees in the temple, lift your proud head and hands toward heaven and thank the LORD that you aren't like us publicans and sinners...meanwhile we publicans will beat our breasts and cry for mercy for us the sinners.
NASS
Is there a limit to the number of exclamation points we can use in a single post?
bepatient said...
Piglet,
This is not a situation where you are in physical danger, and there is a difference.
Piglet says:
True, but spiritual danger is eternal.
God's house is being made a mockery and Jesus - who was never recorded as saving grannies in distress DID drive out the moneychangers.
I think His example shows us how seriously He takes the sin of using His name for personal gain.
Should we take it any less seriously? I'm not calling to task the leaders at another church but MY leaders at MY church who have been entrusted with my tithes for many years. I have a right and a responsibility not to walk away until I've done ALL I can to correct this situation.
And blogging is only a VERY SMALL part of that, I might add.
I fully agree with Why, it is absolutely sickening how you all twist the truth and present it as lies to suit your personal agenda.
Steve Gaines did NOT protect a known criminal. Steve Gaines is a man of great integrity who stands for justice when the actual facts are placed in front of him. Did he err in assuming that the staff had properly handled the moral failure 17 years ago? Yes, he did and has publically admitted to it, (enough to satisfy any fellow Christian)
Steve Gaines did NOT misuse or abuse the credit card (you continue to spread that lie)
Steve Gaines and several other men did step over a 42" fense but NOT to harrass a man (another lie of yours) it was with the intention of settling a dispute (which should have never occured, if Mark Sharpe was a man of integrity he would admit it)
Facts are every single claim any of you make are based on your personal views of how things should or should not be handled in BBC. Once you, "came out" you have been determined to find anything possible to rationalize what you have done and you do not care who you hurt in the process.
Does it not bother any of you that YOU are hurting innocent children, yes innocent children (emotional rape) the Gaines children, who love their daddy and live with him day and night who testify that their dad is the real deal, he loves Jesus and he practices what he preaches. How can any of you rationalize your behavior?
All any of you have done for months is day after day encourage one another to stay in a state of complete blindness while calling others such as Why and Ace blind fools.
You say, if you don't like what you read just, "go on and don't come here" WELL it is time for those of us who see through you to say, "IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT OUR PREACHER PREACHES AND YOU CAN NOT LOVE AND ACCEPT HIM, JUST GET AWAY FROM BBC" OR IS IT OK FOR YOU TO SAY THIS (YOU ARE SO GODLY) BUT NOT US?
PS. NOW, YOU CAN HAVE A FEW MOMENTS TO SPEW ALL OVER THE PLACE, BUT I HAVE VOMITED OVER YOUR LIES AND AGGRAVATED ASSAULT OF OUR PASTOR FOR THE LAST TIME. THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE REVEALED YOUR NAME, IT WOULD TAKE A PUBLIC APOLOGY AND A LONG TIME BEFORE I WOULD EVER TRUST YOU TO BE IN LEADERSHIP IN ANY COMPACITY IN BBC. YOU HAVE PROVEN YOURSELVES TO BE WOLVES IN SHEEPS CLOTHING AND EVERYWORD THAT COMES OUT OF YOUR MOUTH IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU CLAIM STEVE GAINES IS (LIES, LIES AND MORE LIES) AND I DO NOT CARE WHO IT IS THAT AGREES WITH YOU, DR. SPRADLIN OR ANYONE!!!!
"why"ne wrote:
"We are to go and tell and spread the gospel. I do that in a very big way every day."
Oh, why do I not believe that (no pun intended)? Or are you talking about a different "gospel"? (Don't feel compelled to answer. It was a rhetorical question.) Your posts tell me otherwise. If you really are a deacon, and you've never, ever denied that you are, then you are a sorry excuse for one. Does Bryan Miller know how you spend your time? (Again, that's rhetorical and requires no response.)
For once and for all, please just SHUT UP! You have been banned from posting here. You are not welcome here. You are not furthering your cause, whatever your cause may be. If it's to make Steve Gaines look better, you're falling far, far short of that goal. With friends like you and BT the man needs no enemies!
Are you really that thick that you don't understand the meaning of the word "banned"? I can only assume you are.
NASS said
But you make a good point. Very different and much more important is the spiritual danger that exists.
Piglet says:
Nass waxing eloquent again - and took the words right out of my mouth. I fear I am no longer needed here. :(
Just FYI, "hisunseenhand's" initials are "B.T." It was the "fense" that gave her away!
Could this be "hisunseenhand"?
And the Oscar goes to.... ?
(sorry... just wanted to throw in a remark that will make no sense once the "trash" is taken out. Use your imaginations. :)
If a man tells himself enough times he's not really wrong while disobeying the Bible, he eventually believes the lie with his entire mind that he is actually innocent. He will actually come to the point he believes he is doing God's work.
Along this same twisted thought process is the victim hood they place themselves in. Anyone who calls them on their sin will be tagged a trouble maker and a tool of Satan.
This is actually very common in the church and politics. Wrong is obvious but it's often justified by the ones committing the wrong and by their supporters because their pride gets in the way of truth and righteousness. To this day, anyone who was critical of the Clinton machine is demonized.
The official line put out by Steve Gaines, David Coombs, and the rest of the staff is that Satan is attacking the church and God is purging the church of the wicked ones who need to be gone.
I would say they are correct on the first half of the statement. The thousands who are leaving are Godly people who love the Lord and serve Him faithfully. Most of the folks leaving are teachers, deacons, choir members, committee members, mission trip volunteers, etc. I guess the thousands who are leaving Bellevue because of what Steve Gaines and his small band of men are doing need to be purged from the church.
The sad part of this story is that these folks who are leading Bellevue actually believe their own lies now.
It's gotten so bad that many of the current leaders are asking God to forgive Bellevue for how it's operated in the past.
No wonder the remaining staff is happier than ever. They don't have to answer to anyone.
Accountability is something of the past. Many have received pay raises for their loyalty. The only accountability question that comes into play is "do you support Steve 100%?" If so, you can do whatever you want. With all of the programs gone, there is a lot more free time.
The church still refuses to open the financial records for examination both present and past.
The current leadership continues to run folks off who don't agree with them. They are calling those who have left by the thousands people who needed to be purged.
Steve Gaines is still leading while he runs Godly staff off. It's ok in his eyes to hold onto a pedophile staff member. His comment was that "it's under the blood."
Steve Gaines has been caught on tape trashing his own sheep on numerous occasions.
Associate Pastor David Coombs is caught on tape saying "I don't care what the Tennessee law says."
The list could go on and on but we've all heard it before.
The timing of the SBC this week is a good reminder that all Southern Baptist members need to stand up and be heard starting today.
To not hold leaders accountable is a mistake the church can no longer continue to afford.
NASS,
Me thinks you be right!
By the way, that picture is horrible! Hang your head in shame, you baaaaad sheep! :)
karen
let me tell you something, if that is possible!
If I desired to keep my identity a secret; I could.
I do come here from time to time just to see if any of you have grown up and all I find is the same old bloggers blogging about the same old lies. Do you have any idea how many of you there are? Here is the list:
gmommy
oc
concerned
karen
maybe
aslanown
ezekiel
sockwork
mary
sick of the lies (joke)
lynn the recycled
davidbrown
piglet
finance man
33 years
If you can add them you can figure you have about 15 - 18 friends. I may be dumb but what are you? Your number hasn't increased so your case against the leadership has failed.
I'll be willing to say when and if I return, several weeks or months from now, I will find the same bunch wallowing in your loss and throwing stones at Pastor Gaines for taking away your once beautiful Bellevue instead of doing the "great commission" even if you have to step over a fenCCCCe.
You Mr. BBC Open Forum: I pray that the Lord will bless you with whatever it takes to humble you.
Great post nathanb!
hisunseenhand,
If you were out on church visitation and there was "fense" surrounding the neighborhood in which you wanted to visit with "no tresspassing" signs prominently displayed, would you "step over" said "fense" so you could witness to those you were visiting? C'mon now, think about it. How ABSURD is it that we need to even argue about the reason for the 4 leaders of Bellevue Baptist Church going over a fence? Are you seriously defending their actions? Have you heard Mark Sharpe's version of events? Were you there that night when Steve Gaines screamed (like a man possessed!) at Mark Sharpe and called him "hezbollah"?
I can't believe adults, not to mention Christian adults, need to defend a completely bone headed move by their new pastor. If Steve Gaines would conceed that the move to go over the fence was monumentally stupid and we can move on from this issue. The fact that he called it an "itty bitty fence" that measured about to his knees was a flat lie and made a mockery of his apology. He might as well have slapped Mark Sharpe, his wife and his kids square across the faces with that so-called apology.
I am sick and tired of people apologizing and excusing monumentally stupid behavior of this grown man. He even has a firewall now (David Coombs) to make sure Steve no longer embarrasses the church further. There have been apologies all over the place, but not by Steve Gaines. If I were Steve Gaines family, I wouldn't feel "emotionally raped" by what's being said on this blog, I'd be embarrassed by the actions and words of my father/husband. We on this blog didn't cause the behavior; we commented on it after the fact.
Again, I will say it: WE WERE A CHURCH FAMILY LONG BEFORE STEVE GAINES CAME AROUND - WHY ARE WE ALLOWING THAT TO BE TORN APART BY THIS GUY????? DO YOU HATE ME NOW THAT I DON'T BLINDLY SUPPORT STEVE GAINES? WHY? WHAT IS IT ABOUT STEVE GAINES THAT MAKES YOU WANT TO KICK ME OUT OF BELLEVUE, BUT YOU WANT TO KEEP HIM? WHAT HAVE I DONE? WHAT IS SO VILE ABOUT ME NOW? BECAUSE I QUESTION THE ACTIONS OF BBC LEADERSHIP?
karen
John 16:1 “I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God. 3 And they will do these things because they have not known the Father, nor me. 4 But I have said these things to you, that when their hour comes you may remember that I told them to you.
hisunseenhand
You are counting BLOGGERS to guage the strength of your "opposition"?
Look, instead, at the empty seats in the services, dear lady. More BBC folks are flowing through the doors of other churches every week.
Bloggers come and go. People get tired and fed up, say all they have to say and move along - into another congregation.
Some of us - even though we are physically gone, are not quite done with this fight.
I'm not in this for myself anymore. I doubt BBC will ever be the same again, or ever feel like home again.
But I want this leadership literally brought to their knees for the sake of the Lord Jesus Christ and for the honor of our dear Dr. Rogers whose legacy they have endeavored to destroy.
Ok, I was left off the bloggers list. I have been here for a few months and I get the shaft from some goober that can't count!
Evidently, this person doesn't come back enough to see everyone who is here and I demand a recount!!! : )
unseen wanted to see if anyone here has grown up...unseen...1st, look in the mirror...then proceed to remove the beam in your own eye...the help with the little bitty speck in our eye.
Hisunseenhand said:
AND I DO NOT CARE WHO IT IS THAT AGREES WITH YOU, DR. SPRADLIN OR ANYONE!!!!
---------------
My dear "hisunseenhand", with the above statement, you have captured the present philosophy of many of your ilk. How sad!
"A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything." - A. Rogers
"We are responsible for the effort.
God is responsible for the outcome." - A. Rogers
32yrs@bbc not 33 yrs.:-)
Steve Gaines is not the only problem with Bellevue at this time.
The church is being led by a small group of men who continue to control the purse strings and finances (among other things).
If Steve Gaines were gone today, there would be huge issues remaining with the current leadership.
Don't forget the current elders believe in "elitism". They have had the keys to the spending the past couple of years and they refuse to open the books up to see where money has been spent. Only if you are in their "club" are you privy to such info.
If they wanted to have a positive impact on Bellevue and the fleeing sheep, open the books for anyone to examine the outflow of money the past 24 months.
They can't do that because it would be too embarrassing for them.
Who ever heard of a Southern Baptist Church that had elders who said it wasn't any members' business as to how money had been spent?
This mentality is sweeping across the Southern Baptist Convention as pulpits are filled by pastors who believe the church should be run like the world.
In fact, most publicly traded businesses give their stockholders more access to finances than Bellevue and its leadership of David Coombs.
I believe I'm correct in that David Coombs came from a privately held company where they didn't have to tell anyone on the outside anything.
This is the danger of ordaining a millionaire businessman as associate pastor. They are so far out of touch with reality, it doesn't even show up on their radar screen when you tell them.
Ok, I was left off the bloggers list. I have been here for a few months and I get the shaft from some goober that can't count!
johnthebaptist, you can be "sockwork" if you want. I'm not sure who that is.
Miss Billie,
I am TOTALLY BUMMED OUT that I didn't make you list.
Dear lady, as I have told you several times before, you don't have a clue as to what is going on. YOU ARE STILL FOLLOWING A MAN!!!! WAKE UP, DEAR LADY!!!!
socwork,
Is that anything like "sock monkey"?
Nathanb said...
"This mentality is sweeping across the Southern Baptist Convention as pulpits are filled by pastors who believe the church should be run like the world."
Please, please, please understand that the vast majority of SBC churches do not have this mentality nor a Pastor with this mindset. The vast majority of SBC churches have 100 or less in attandance! Please do not cast your perceptions of the mega churches in the SBC on the whole convention!
socwork said...
johnthebaptist, you can be "sockwork" if you want. I'm not sure who that is.
Thank you but I am determined to make the list on my own.
I thought maybe the "k" in sockwork was your middle initial but I guess not. : )
Thank you but I am determined to make the list on my own.
I understand... maybe one day soon, you too can have the privilege.
I thought maybe the "k" in sockwork was your middle initial but I guess not. : )
Good thinking... maybe it will be now.
Soc K. Work.
Hm... Nah, I'm not feelin' it.
Not that there's anything wrong with the letter "K" (hi Karen!)
cory,
Thank you for stating what I should have been careful to say. I apologize for making it sound like the majority of SBC churches are in this classification.
There are over 45,000 SBC churches and 95% are as you say.
It's dangerous to the SBC because often times, the leaders of the convention are coming from these churches. Not all mega church pastors are this way.
The problem usually lies with the larger church because that's where the money is.
Most SBC pastors are wonderful godly men who love the Lord and love being a shepherd to their sheep. They labor tirelessly preaching, evangelizing, visiting, and doing a million other things.
Most preachers do not have the luxury of having a huge staff to take care of things.
Thank you again for the reminder. I love the SBC and pray that God raises leadership that will put God first in all they do.
Socwork said...
Hm... Nah, I'm not feelin' it.
Not that there's anything wrong with the letter "K" (hi Karen!)
Yeah, it takes a special person to carry off a "K"! :)
JTB,
Did you really use the term "goober"?
karen
JTB,
Did you really use the term "goober"?
karen
Yes I did and I meant it in the kindness possible way.
I was wondering...is there anyway we can find out how our delegates voted during the SBC?
I never really had to worry about it until now....and I am not talking about all of the delegates either.
While I can trust a couple to tell the truth on how they voted, there are a few others that might have a problem with their memory/telling the truth.
Karen said...
JTB,
Yes, and in gentleness and meeknees of spirit I'm sure!
Reply: Karen, you described me perfectly! You are very wise. : )
JTB,
Yes, and in gentleness and meeknees of spirit I'm sure!
Gooly Moogly - even better Goonie Goo Goo!
Just for clarification: The above utterances are no Private Prayer Language!
Sorry I had to embellish my post!
About the delegates votes, when I was watching the live video stream, they were asking for delegates to hold up their ballots for a yea or nay vote, so I don't think there's a record. Although they were asked to pass something to the aisle to the ushers. I was working at the time and kind of missed that part. I saw on the blog at sbc.net that someone was voted as 2nd Vice President - is that the position David Rogers is up for or is there a 1st Vice President position as well?
David is up for 1st VP.
I was watching the video stream as well but some very rude coworkers were being very loud doing company work. Imagine that, doing work while I am watching the video!!!
Some people are so rude! They can do their work anytime but the SBC convention comes only once a year!
Some people...go figure.
Looks like Jim Richards beat out David Rogers - check out David's blog. He's very gracious about the loss and there are some nice comments back to him.
karen
David's blog is:
http://loveeachstone.blogspot.com/
Seems we couldn't lose with either gentleman.
Dear Ms. Tapp
You note that I am a JOKE...
Let me tell you something, dear lady, I have lived thru more than most people have lived through. I know what I am talking about.
Many that endured what I endured end up on drugs, or as a prostitute, or they work in strip bars. But let me tell you something, I REFUSED to allow it to control ME.
I put myself thru college, worked for 5 years while living on my own, married for the FIRST AND ONLY time at 27 years old,( 25 years ago) and because of the damage to my reproductive system as a result of the repeated rapes, we adopted two beautiful children.
HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A JOKE!!!
IF you were to have lived thru what I lived thru, with your obviously limited intelligence, you would be working at a topless bar to this day!
To put ( joke) in parenthesis after my name was very hurtful, particularly since the hardship I endured as an early teen.
You are a very sick person to do such a thing, and it only stands to make what I said earlier true.
You do not take pedophilia seriously, and you obviously think it's a joke when someone DOES take it seriously.
Please stay away from my child. YOu are NOT to be trusted around ANY children with your attitude about pedophilia.
Pedophilia is NOT a joke, but YOU certainly are!!!
IT's obvious to me that Ms. Billy Tapp falls in the category of:
" A little molestation never hurt anyone"
Shall we make a list of those that fall into this category?
These people are sick. They have no business being around children.Take your children and RUN!!!!
I am scared to post anything now.
Johnthebaptist,
As long as you are not billy tapp,you're safe.
I am not billy tapp....I have standards....and decernment.
SOTL,
I don't know how the inactions of Steve Gaines are defensible. Hope nothing happens to their kids. Bless you for revealing your hurts and your heart.
Love ya girl!
karen
If the 13 of us that the mental giant, ms tapp, says post against her pedophile harboring pastor, should we assume that since there are only 2 or 3 that post FOR him, that his support is limited to 2 or 3 people?
I take it that someone must have posted that I am an angry victim but the post has been removed.
Here is my response to that:
Saying that I am " an angry victim" minimizes the crime of child sexual abuse.
What you are saying, in reality, is that the crime isn't ALL THAT BAD, it's just that " I" can't deal with it.
YOu are living in denial.
I have RIGHTEOUS anger! I KNOW fisrt hand what happens when a child is molested, and I do not want it to happen to someone else.
That is the difference between ME and the person that posted that I have anger issues with this crime.
I don't want it to happen to another child. YOU don't care if it happens or not, because, after all,
"a little molestation never hurt anyone"
I feel compelled to note that the 2:13 post had an error (yeah, I know...more than one).....we have 2 brilliant blggers that have similar names: concerned and concernedSBCer. I just wanted it noted that we are not the same person and certainly I (and I believe both of us) support those on this blog, and would even stand alone, if necessary, FOR the truth and against those who ignore God's Word.
sick of the lies,
let me set you straight I do very much so take pedophilia very personal and I HATE the sin with a passion. If you knew my history you would not say such a rediculious thing. My hatred of pedophilia does NOT excuse me to take out my anger upon innocent people and my pastor is not guilty of anything other than assuming that the perpetrator and his wife were being honest with him and that the matter had been dealt with 17 years ago under the leadership of Dr. Rogers.
Regardless of what happened to you or to me or to any of our children in the past does not give us a right to condemn someone who the perpetrator, talks to. You were not there behind the close doors, neither was the victim or any of those who have instigated and pushed him to come forward. I wish that we all had a tape of that confersation but we don't; so get over it!
I wrote beside your title of, "Sickofthelies" joke because if you were truely sick of the lies you would not remain in this dump of a blog site that you are in.
I have said all I intend to say regarding this matter. I have been made fun of, called all sorts of names, accused of being a liar and I have taken the blows from a group of people who are sin sick. Everytime I come into this site I feel as though I have been to Iran.
I read absolutely nothing that even resembles Christianity.
ConcernedSBCer said...
).....we have 2 brilliant blggers that have similar names: concerned and concernedSBCer
At least you both made the list! I was left off like I don't exist.
I am starting to feel like the Maytag repairman....lonely. : )
SOTL: You will surely hear those treasured words: "Well done, thy good and faithful servant."
You cannot let someone's ignorance and blindness steal your joy for even one minute. The "dear lady" obviously has some issues with compassion and empathy, which seem to me to be cornerstones of our Chritian relationships. In true southern fashion, I would have to say, "Bless her heart" which every southern knows truly means in this case, "She doesn't get it at all, does she?"
You are admired, loved, and are doing a great job of, as David Brown says, being an advocate.
John the Baptist: No, we didn't...that was the problem! :/ Apparently, in a fit of tired fingers syndrome, she only listed "concerned" and by golly, I wanted on there too!
She must have had difficulty counting.....she left off you, Charlie, Ima, AllofGrace, me, 25+, junk99mail....the list goes on.....
Bless her heart....she must have trouble with numbers. ;)
There are many standing for truth, and, as piglet so beautifully stated, many more who have spoken and have since moved on. But that doesn't diminish their voices.
hisunseenhand said...in part...
and I have taken the blows from a group of people who are sin sick. Everytime I come into this site I feel as though I have been to Iran.
I read absolutely nothing that even resembles Christianity.
Reply: You have no idea what it is like in Iran so quit trying to be so holier than thou. You spew hate and anger just like you said that the people here do. Once again I say...get the huge beam out of your own eye and then help with the tiny speck in our eyes.
You say you read "absolutely nothing that even resembles Christianity".... You must be reading only your posts...........we agree...nothing in your posts resembles Christianity.
Ms. Tapp,
Sorry mam, you have things turned around. In Iran they sensor everthing that is anti govt/anti Mohammed.
Here the church sensors anything anti leadership and don't appear to be to concerned about anything that is anti-The WORD. Please get your side straight and your theology correct. Iran might be just the place for you.
Ps. I love you. Are you sure you are taking your blood pressure meds?
Socwork: Only VERY special people get to have a K in their name....it would work for you, you know! ;)
Miss Billy Tapp
You are BEYOND ignorant.
If you can't understand that you do not EVER allow an admitted pedophile around chidlren, then you are mentally challenged, as is your pedophile harboring pastor.
You show me ONE Place, just one place, in research that a pedophile is EVER recommended to be around children anymore and I will apologize to you.
ANYONE with even a half of a brain knows that you do not allow a pedophile around children.
So, you STILL remain in the category of"
" A little molestation never hurt anyone"
You make me sick. You better NEVER come near ME or my children.
sorry I left some of you off the petition thanks for reminding me. I have added you to the list of 22 and isn't that funny that is how many empty seats I counted in our section on Sunday morning 3 weeks ago but this past week it was only 15 empty seats. I thought some of you had returned but I know now the seats are being filled by others.
BT wrote:
"I wrote beside your title of, "Sickofthelies" joke because if you were truely sick of the lies you would not remain in this dump of a blog site that you are in."
Then why are you still here, madam? Enjoy rolling around in the mud with the rest of the pig(let)s?
billybob said...
"I thought some of you had returned but I know now the seats are being filled by others."
I talked with several folks who came last Sunday to hear Charles Billingsly. Let's see if the "increase" remains in the future.
and oh, btw, you left me and my family of 11 off your list of "bloggers":)
2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
4:8 [We are] troubled on every side, yet not distressed; [we are] perplexed, but not in despair;
4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
Miss Billie/Unseen hand: I would hate for you to waste your time here when you could be studying scripture. There is so much to study, read, and learn in those 66 books. II Timothy 2:15: "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us that pedophelia is okay; in fact, in many places it tells us explicitly that is is WRONG. You might want to study that. See, it's not "uncharted waters" because it is addressed in the Bible. It has also been addressed of late in the Catholic church.
Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us that it is okay to trespass.
Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us that it is okay to misuse church funds.
Nowhere in the Bible does it tell leaders that it is okay to shear sheep instead of shephard them.
However, if you do an indepth study (in context) of scripture and discover otherwise, I'm sure we on the blog would be thrilled to know about it.
Mom4....gosh there are so many of us that got left off, isn't there?
That's just sad......and wrong.
sotl said...
"If the 13 of us that the mental giant, ms tapp, says post against her pedophile harboring pastor, should we assume that since there are only 2 or 3 that post FOR him, that his support is limited to 2 or 3 people?"
ROFL!!!
According to basic logistic principles, you can extrapolate those figures to percentages and it will reveal that the supporters of the administration are 18.75 percent while the truth seekers are 81.25 percent of the membership. Hmmmm??
sick you had better get this straight: I don't ever want you around my children!!! you are the sick woman. I would NEVER have any sex offender around my children, if I know their past and neither would our pastor!!!!! this is the point that you do not get::IF Dr. Rogers had allowed the minister to stay on staff for 17 years (this is what the pastor believed) then it must have been dealt with properly. Hind sight says the pastor was not told the absolute facts, apparently Dr. R did not know and apparently the matter had not been dealt with. Are you so blind that you can not see the difference; if you are then I hope and pray that you get your act together and stop teaching others to blindly take stabs at people who they do not have a clue if the person is guilty or not.
WOMAN TAKE A STAND FOR JUSTICE!!! THIS IS WHAT CHRISTIANS ARE SUPPOSE TO DO. I AM FOR WHAT IS RIGHT AND I WILL NOT BACK DOWN. THE CRIME THAT YOU AND YOUR ASSOCIATES ARE DOING ARE JUST AS BAD AS MURDERING AN INNOCENT VICTIM.
MANY OF YOU CLAIM TO KNOW AND I CAN TELL YOU, EVEN MR. BROWN, THAT YOU ARE OFF THE MARK BUT TELLING YOU GUYS ANYTHING AT THIS TIME IS IMPOSSIBLE. YA LL ARE SO BUSY TRYING TO DESTROY THAT YOU WILL NOT TAKE THE TIME TO LOOK AT YOUR OWN HEART'S CONDITION.
I PITY YOU
concernedSBCer said...
Socwork: Only VERY special people get to have a K in their name....
I have a "Special K" in my name, too! It is formally Jun K. 99mail. And y'all thought it was just a screen name!
Checking in to find I have missed all the activity.
BUT....I was FIRST on the list!!!!!
Nass made me laugh out loud several times ...especially the 3 large men and a pipsqueak......
and
that picture cracks me up!!!
I get so tired of hearing the script that goes something like....
WE don't know WHAT was said in SG's office...or
SINCE the victim of the staff minister is now over 18, SG didn't break any laws by not reporting it.
(from a deacon officer)
OK all better now! NO!!!!!!!!!!
We DO know what was said in that CONFESSION......
it doesn't matter if PW told Steve Gaines an itty bitty part of his history as a sexual predator.
Scripture says that an elder,leader,minister,deacon
are to be ABOVE REPROACH.....
not just "slip around the slope."
And what a shame that there are some who NEED to be LEAD so badly that instead of going with what the Bible commands...
NOT SUGGESTS...
they are satisfied that the Sr pastor of BBC got AROUND the law...
Nothing has changed since the 60's when sexual abuse was covered up. Lets not make people uncomfortable.
It wasn't about character with Clinton and it certainly isn't about character now at BBC.
unseenhand said...
HisUnseenHand said...
sorry I left some of you off the petition thanks for reminding me. I have added you to the list of 22 and isn't that funny that is how many empty seats I counted in our section on Sunday morning 3 weeks ago but this past week it was only 15 empty seats. I thought some of you had returned but I know now the seats are being filled by others.
Reply: SCORE!!! I knew I would make it if I was persistant! yeehaa!
Since you can't count members on the blog I wouldn't trust your counting empty seats in your section. If you really want to use all of your fingers and toes...count all the empty seats in the whole building! you will have to do a whole lot of sypherin'.
HisUnseenHand said...
this is the point that you do not get::IF Dr. Rogers had allowed the minister to stay on staff for 17 years (this is what the pastor believed) then it must have been dealt with properly.
This won't fly. I have read or heard nothing to indicate that Steve Gaines was led to believe by PW that Dr. Rogers had been aware of PW's sin. Every effort has been made, including in the Investigative Committee's report, to point out that there is no evidence that Dr. Rogers had any knowledge of the matter. If it was true that Steve Gaines mistakenly thought that Dr. Rogers had dealt with the situation, why Steve Gaines just say that? Instead he basically claimed that he didn't know what to do.
And even if -- a BIG if, and one I do not believe for a minute -- but even if Dr. Rogers had by some strange and uncharacteristic lapse of judgment known about PW's sin and allowed him to stay on staff, does that automatically give Steve Gaines a pass to do the same? Wouldn't Steve Gaines still have been obligated to do the right thing and have PW removed from ministry?
Is it too much to ask people to just think and use a little common sense and apply elementary Bible knowledge?
Unseen/BT said: "Hind sight says the pastor was not told the absolute facts, apparently Dr. R did not know and apparently the matter had not been dealt with. Are you so blind that you can not see the difference"
Sweetie......the DIFFERENCE is that "Bro. Steve" KNEW for 6+ months and did nothing while Dr. R didn't know.
concernedSBCer said...
Miss Billie/Unseen hand: I would hate for you to waste your time here when you could be studying scripture. There is so much to study, read, and learn in those 66 books
Concerned...you forget that Steve and the group don't read all the bible. They pick and choose what to use for their own justification of sin and anything else is just guidelines.
Since unseen is part of that group, she will have plenty of time on her hands to spend with us.
I wonder if she will be as hateful to others and so condoning of Steves/leaderships actions when she stands before Jesus?
Unseen..there is some fine print in the books of the bible that you and Stevie are overlooking.
HisUnseenHand said...
I would NEVER have any sex offender around my children, if I know their past and neither would our pastor!!!!!
But Dr. Gaines DID allow a sex offender access to the children of BBC for 6 months despite knowledge of the offender's past.
Are you really as obtuse as you seem?
When scripture is not being taught and honored
and when the church becomes like the world,
people accept counterfeit.
I can't believe I am saying this but lets please let up on Ms BT.
If it's being put out by leadership (with a new slant )
that Bro R knew about and allowed a sexual predator to minister at BBC
SG IS AS SICK as we thought.
Textbook deflection....
narcissists deflect away from themselves and want to include others in their sinfulness so that they don't look as bad as they truly are.
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