On Monday, June 4th at 9:00 a.m., there will be an interview with our own David Brown on Live at 9 on WREG Channel 3. Anna Whalley of the Shelby County Crime Victim's Center is scheduled to be interviewed with him. The interview is to focus on the importance of reporting even suspected abuse to the proper authorities immediately and the services available to victims of childhood sexual abuse. David has asked for our prayers for him and for victims to have the courage to seek assistance.If you're not in the Memphis area or not near a TV when it airs live, you should be able to watch it online here later.
The Commercial Appeal may do an interview later.
Related stories:
Rape of Faith
America's Largest Protestant Denomination Under Fire
Victim's rights group calls for action by Church
Bellevue investigation yields sharp criticism
EthicsDaily.com
575 comments:
1 – 200 of 575 Newer› Newest»I will be praying for David tomorrow.
(Yeah...I'm first!!)
According to David Brown's story on one of the links
David signed a document saying he would not talk about the rape by a priest after the fact.
He is talking.
What have been the consequences of breaking the agreement????
Thank you David ,for having the courage to do what was right and not what was comfortable.
.....It makes me sick that in another link, Channel 3, I think...
they chose to use the same word BBC used for the crime of sexual abuse.....the wrong word for sin against a child.
How can the word "incident" ever be associated with the sexual abuse of a child???
It says he was released from not talking about it but not from not suing. So he's not breaking any agreements just by talking. In other words, he can talk about it now, but he still can't sue.
From the article:
"In recent years, as scandal after scandal spread like poison through the bloodstream of the American Catholic Church, the Diocese of Nashville released victims from their confidentiality agreements—or as Diocesan attorney Gino Marchetti wrote to Brown in May 2005, from the 'confidentiality aspects of any such agreements.' It was the careful wording of a lawyer, designed to maintain the Diocese's indemnity from lawsuits even as it seemed to respond to the human pain of a hurting victim."
"whyne" wrote:
"ME and MINE are involved in every ministry possible and our ultimate focus is outreach."
Bwahahahahaha!!!
I apologize for my outburst. That really isn't funny, but I was just imagining anyone whose focus is "outreach" talking to people the way Mr. Deacon has talked to us.
Why are you so mean
and everything you say sounds like the last thing?
Why don't you look for your spell check if you are going to whine as WHY????
Why are you here??
Why weren't you at the dressed down, seeker friendly,
heads in the sand ,
NEW version of BBC at 7:05 tonight instead of posting????
Don't you have ministries to take care of....?
Can't just say fraud and liars...you have to state a fact and back it up....WHY???
nevermind...your banned.
Nass,
If WHY is a deacon...he sure sounds alot (and spells like)
a deacon whose letter is posted on saving BBC.
What in the world ministry can he be in ??
He only knows a few words and sentences...oh...easier for him to memorize the SG script.
check this out. Not on topic, but you'll appreciate the satire.
The picture on this thread just rips my heart out. I guess I see my own boys in that picture and I just cannot bear the thought of them ever being hurt in this way.
May God bless and prosper the work that David Brown is doing.
night piglet...may God protect children from those that would harm them....
a good step is not protecting the predators.
allofgrace...good link...our kids want the real thing...not the world's counterfeit!
Think Steve Gaines could be convinced to do this?
There's been a recent addition to the display case in the west foyer.
Y'all are killing me! And this had me doubled over.
Dearest Brothers and Sisters: Made it through the interview. Wow it does drain you. But I will hear from new victims because of the interview.
I am in the process of setting up a "program" where Anna Whaley, and the District Attorney's office will put out how you handle one of these cases. There won't be any room for "uncharted waters" or comments like "I did no know his job responsibility." It will be targeted for all churches of any denomination. There will be a segment where we take answers and questions. We hope to have this recorded soon. It will be available to any group. The more we shed LIGHT on this horrible crime, the better chances our children will have.
Thanks for you prayers, I needed them. And for any victims that be ready to talk, there is help out there for you when you are ready. You are not alone.
David Brown
davidbrown@bigriver.net
901/569-4500
I have just finished reading the commments from " WHY" last night.
HE/SHE/IT just cracks me up!!! If you look at them all together, it's just the same thing, over and over again...using his favorite word, " LIES"...
We're talkin SERIOUS vocabulary deficiency.
Sounds like someone needs to purchase the book, " 1100 Words You Need To Know"
Why, everytime you post, it gives me a chuckle. Keep it up, would you? I"m going to compile all of your emails to post on here so you can see how ridiculous you look.
SOTL,
If you do, I'll delete it! But we could compile a file containing "Why's Whynings" and link to it.
allofgrace said...
check this out. Not on topic, but you'll appreciate the satire.
The quote at the end of this article is particluarly telling...
"When we did big elaborate services, they criticized us for being too showy. So we tried to be authentic, and now this," he says. "I wish this generation would get alone and decide what it wants."
This really points out the problem with the mad rush to be "culturally relevant" at all costs. It is a false premise that the church should structure itself around what a particular generation "wants" rather than around God's timless truths.
I have no problem with a church updating and changing its programs and style to more effectively communicate with younger generations and apply the truth as the culture shifts -- so long as it is the congregation that choses to make those changes, not some self-appointed group that "transitions" a church without the congregation's knowledge or approval. But we must be careful not to rush after the latest fad or trend without ensuring that our methods and message remain biblically sound and balanced.
all2jesus said...
Y'all are killing me! And this had me doubled over.
A quote from this article:
Team member Joyce Andrews says the salespeople "will tolerate a lot of evangelizing if you are committed to buying a diamond necklace or a watch." Andrews says she felt vastly more effective evangelizing luxury jewelry shop employees than on her last three trips to Central America.
"I feel useless in poor places," she says. "But I found I fit very well in wealthier environments. Striking up spiritual conversations at the perfume counter is right up my alley."
Oh, PUUUUUHHHH-LEEEEEEEEEEES!!!
New BBC Open Forum said...
There's been a recent addition to the display case in the west foyer.
That should be a big seller across the street at the seminary!
Ummm, junk? You do realize the key word in all this is "satire," don't you? I actually thought for a minute the 24/7 webcam thing was real until I realized the entire site is... satire.
But you can purchase the t-shirts and mugs. Those are real.
I am pretty sure He means it.
Malachi 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
He was "relevant" on day one and He is relevant today. Man's efforts to make him "relevant" today are only a misguided rebellious attempt to change him to meet man's idea of who God is. Never mind all the character He reveals in His WORD.
Satire? What's that?? :)
I’d like to add an additional comment from the previous thread about appropriate dress for services. My own post stated how I personally feel one should approach dressing for church.
As PowerGmommy said, “WE HAD STANDARDS.” Yes, we certainly did and it didn’t have anything to do with how much money we had to spend on our clothing, but it had everything to do with dignity and respect.
However, I did not address how WE, as the body of Christ should respond to those who, for whatever reason, do not dress in “appropriate” attire. On that matter, I would like to say that ALL visitors and members alike should be greeted with genuine warmth and respect regardless of their dress – or the lack thereof. We are not responsible for their circumstances or the condition of their hearts, but we will answer for how WE treat them.
concernedSBCer said... “Clothes should not determine who is accepted.” And you are absolutely correct, for how can we do anything less and expect to be earthly representatives of our Lord?
Padroc, your over-the-road-trucker should be welcome and accepted as warmly as the guy wearing the custom tailored suit made exclusively for him in Hong Kong.
There should be absolutely no difference in the way these people are greeted and treated by US, for to do so would be to judge them by their outward appearance when we don’t have a clue as to their circumstances – and judging them is not our responsibility. OUR responsibility is to make them feel welcome and to help provide an atmosphere of genuine Christ-like warmth and hospitality where they will feel free to worship the Lord – or to come to a saving knowledge of Him, if that is their need.
Lynn The Recycled Whammy said... “And Mary, I have personally seen instances up at Bellevue where if your not in the in crowd, no one wants to have anything to do with you. And thats my personal experience BTW.”
Lynn, that’s all too true. Not only have I seen it at BBC, I have experienced it first hand, as have you. However, I did not find that it had anything to do with attire. It seemed to be more of the sin of self-importance on the part of the offenders. I offer no excuse for that kind of behavior other than to say that it reflects more on the character and motives of the so-called “in crowd” than it does on the ones who are the victims of their exclusion. But it hurts none-the-less. I often wondered why some of these people weren’t at the country club instead of at church.
mary,
I agree with you on code of dress, but I have one additional comment. While those of us who have grown up churched will attest to, I have been given to fits of "what was she thinking?" when I see some younger girls with their teeny weeny halter dresses and sky high wedge shoes tottering around the churches I've been visiting lately. I remember when I was given permission to wear jeans on Wednesday nights and what a struggle I had with my mom to let me do that! I think that if you're going to worship the Lord, you should give Him the courtesy of not wearing something you'd wear on a night out at the nightclub. Since the girls I've seen lately are not old enough to hold down jobs, I have to assume the parents are to blame for buying the attire. BUT! If that is all one has to wear, then that shouldn't be a reason to not come to church.
As far as the "country club" at Bellevue, I can personally tell you it was difficult growing up at Bellevue since I attended public school. The ECS, Briaricrest, Memphis Prep crowd was difficult to get into if you had Craigmont credentials. Even Germantown HS was accepted in this "in crowd", so it really had to do with money and what kind of car your daddy bought you when you turned 16 rather than your private school pedigree.
karen
Mary,
Whoever you really are and however you may dress...I LIKE you!!!!
I use to have a "vision" (not the scary kind)of what "amos" looked like when he would "break his silence" to comfort us. Well,I was wrong about that!! I have seen a picture of his family...I digress...my gift....
Anyway,
I see Mary as the warm,wise, welcoming person that sees the "invisable" people in the crowd. Of course,you have gardening clothes on!!! :)
I bet on the 1st part of that anyway,I am right!!!
Often times at church people dress in such a way that it draws attention to them and in some cases it is intentional but in other cases it is unintentional but in either case attention is still drawn. The main issue is that when someone dresses in this way it could eaily put ones focus on you the whole time at church and not on God when He should be the ultimate purpose of being at Church. My main issue is not about the unchurched visitor but the Christian member that should be setting the example.
HWBLU said
I also want to say this in regard to the many harsh remarks made toward Gaines: When he came to BBC all people had very high expectations of him. He could not live up to the demands people were placing upon him. Has it occured to any of you that Jesus was crucified because He did not meet his followers expectations.
Piglet said:
He couldn't meet with a handful of deacons and staff/ministers to clear up the fact that apparently he had lied?! That was a high expectation?
He couldn't dismiss a pedophile in a ministry position?
He can't preach at BBC on Wed. nights but he CAN preach elsewhere for extra paychecks?
He can't obey tax laws, federal laws, or bylaws?
He can't have regularly scheduled busisenss meeting?
Are these the high expectations you speak of?
We know that CW did not want PW arrested. He wanted him out of a ministry position and the pastor would not remove PW until he was forced to.
We all knew we would not have another Dr. Rogers and I was dealing with the "changes" in music and style of services, etc., but I won't settle for a pastor who is guilty of all of the above and more. The very LEAST I expect from a new pastor is integrity and following God's word - we haven't gotten that. :(
why said
The plans they have for Bellevue will answer many of your questions and they have Bellevue going in the right direction. Annual Report will be given to all and will be very detailed. Many other great things are in store.
Piglet says:
The right direction?
Throwing out the scriptural requirements for a minister?
Erasing ALL accountability by DOING AWAY WITH REGULAR BUSINESS MEETINGS and refusing to OPEN THE BOOKS?
Running off seasoned spirit-filled christians so you can replace them with the gullible unchurched crowd?
Indulging the pastor's love of money by over paying his salary, slipping him extra money BBC members don't know about, and allowing him to moonlight on Wed. while tithe dollars go to pay for someone ELSE to fill the BBC pulpit?
Paying legal fees to keep the new pastor out of trouble?
This is the great new direction?
Who cares what the annual report says? The books are closed. BBC members only see what the leaders want them to see - I could produce some numbers for the annual report myself that would be about as accurate.
Leadership has lost the reptutaion of being trustworthy. We have been openly lied to, manipulated, and forcibly silenced.
The direction BBC is headed is a shame to the Lord, the membership and the SBC.
"I also want to say this in regard to the many harsh remarks made toward Gaines: When he came to BBC all people had very high expectations of him. He could not live up to the demands people were placing upon him. Has it occured to any of you that Jesus was crucified because He did not meet his followers expectations."
Ya know, that logic makes no sense. Expecting someone to OBEY THE LAW is not a high expectation. It is COMMON SENSE! Show me where in the bible where it is written that sin can be overlooked without consequence. You won't find one iota of that in the bible period. Yes, God expects us to forgive. BUT, Forgiveness is not a replacement for accountability. The pastor, as much as he doesn't like it, has to be held accountable just like everyone else. People may be blind here on earth, but Gaines, Coombs, and all of the other power brokers at Bellevue are going to be in for a rude awakening when they have to give an account to Jesus when He returns.
WHY
Why not open the books and have regular business meetings? Surely you can't defend running a church without this?
WHY
The Wed. night deal. THOSE out of town Wed. nights were scheduled LONG ago and most before he ever stepped foot at Bellevue. He was finishing those commitments. It is that simple. What he told us was the truth.
Piglet says:
Okay, let's park here, then.
So you're saying he not only pulled the Wed. night thing at BBC but was doing it at Gardendale?
Are you trying to say he no longer takes speaking engagements on Wed. nights?
Don't suppose he should have mentioned that instaed of preaching at BBC on Wed. night he had to fulfill commitments made several months out?
Fact is, he lied.
Now, about the standard business meetings and opening the books - why not?
WHY
When, since Dr. Rogers got here, has the membership REPEATEDLY requested a business meeting - even had a petition with almost 500 signatures on it - and been DENIED???!!! Ever?
WHY said
Piglet: We did not have normal business meetings before!! The Annual Report and finances are not being done by Bellevue and are what they are. You can ask any Deacon for the numbers, they have them. The reports etc will be coming soon
Piglet says:
So an independent firm gets to see the financials and the members who CONTRIBUTE THE FUNDS do not? Is that what you are saying?
Done with you. BYE
WHY
Hate, hate, hate - why don't you lobby for a new hate crimes bill against anyone who dares criticize your idol?
You are worshiping man instead of Christ.
And you STILL cannot explain why it is so dangerous to the leaership to have regular business meetings and open the books.
Is it because you know thew answer and it is incriminating? I was told by a Gaines supporter (A deacon OFFICER at the time who would deny this to his death I'm sure, I might add) that it WOULD be incriminating so you don't even have to.
I am HIGHLY OFFENDED by this supposed leadership!
Why said:
"THOSE out of town Wed. nights were scheduled LONG ago and most before he ever stepped foot at Bellevue. He was finishing those commitments. It is that simple."
So the reason given, that he needed "family time" was not important or true before coming to Bellevue, but pertained only as a reason after coming. Hmmmmmm, very interesting.....
WHY has flown the coop once again without addressing the issue of business meetings and transparency in the financial dept.
Are we shocked?
Thanks, WHY, for bringing the real issues to light once again. Without your input I might have lurked all day without one post. :)
Folks,
You're wasting your time and electrons on this moron/troll. Please just ignore it. Mr. Deacon is never going to answer a question with anything more than the usual line(s).
Ignorance said,
CW will not testify against his father and he stands in defense of him.
Ignorance 2 said,
Jesus was crucified because He did not meet his followers expectations.
gmommy is sickened by such ignorance......
Since a son cares for his dad even tho his dad is his own molestor... (would we expect anything else from this particular victim???)
WE all should blow off the scriptural qualifications for a minister.....?????
even tho SG THINKS he is the king,we can't possibly expect ANYTHING from him because Bro R was perfect...???
which is it?? You can't have it both ways.
PLEASE show me the scripture where it says that Jesus was crucified because He didn't live up to people's expectations.....
new theology for dummies...
NOT the Bible.
whyne wrote:
"Done with you. BYE"
Why (no pun intended) do I not believe that? :-(
hwblu wrote:
"Has it occured to any of you that Jesus was crucified because He did not meet his followers expectations."
No, trust me on this. That never occurred to me! In fact, that's one of the most ignorant statements I've heard anyone, especially someone claiming to be a Christian, utter in a very long time.
Dear "HEWILLBELIFTEDUP": You owe this board a sincere apology. What you said of this victim and his father is an outright lie. No room for discussions. And I want your apology now.
I think that most on here know me and my involvement in this case. What is posted is an outright lie and you are only try to stir up trouble. I know the attorney that worked with this victim and why he assisted him and it had NOTHING do with his father. His attorney is a very close personal friend of mine. It just goes to show how very little you really know.
Please others ignore this troll. And troll I am waiting on the apology or your time on this blog will be very short.
David Brown
davidbrown@bigriver.net
901/569-4500
hwblu,
Your information is just plain wrong, and you will not be allowed to spread rumors about the victim here! This is why your comment was deleted. I'm unable to delete just part of a comment.
NBBCOF
Thank you, David. I didn't have permission to post that information. I deleted the comment.
watchinghisstory,
In case you've forgotten, you have been banned from posting here. Please do not post any more comments.
NBBCOF
hwblu wrote:
"Has it occured to any of you that Jesus was crucified because He did not meet his followers expectations."
Reply: Oh boy. Have you lost your mind? Or your soul? You compare Gaines to Jesus?
Where do you see in the Bible that Jesus let child molesters remain on His 'staff'?
Where do you see in the Bible that Jesus scaled a fence to intimidate a follower of Christ?
Where do you see in the Bible that Jesus wanted anyone to stop saying 'amen'?
Where do you see in the Bible that Jesus felt threatened and therefore allowed a 15 year old girl to be terrorized by grown men?
Where do you see in the Bible that Jesus' followers made Him rich?
And where,in the Bible, or anywhere else,do you see Gaines crucified? Seems you take the crucifixion way too lightly. You need to study and pray more.
You invented your own Gospel. It looks to me like Gaines is your god.
I don't believe in luck, but anyway, good luck with that.
Just sayin'.
oc.
hwblu,
By the way, it isn't about expectations. It's about sin.
Just sayin.
oc.
hwblu.
Your blog name 'he will be lifted up'.
Who exactly do you mean? You are working way too hard at lifting Gaines. He may be too heavy for you though. Think about it.
oc.
new BBC forum responded to hwblu's post with:
"In fact, that's one of the most ignorant statements I've heard anyone, especially someone claiming to be a Christian, utter in a very long time."
May I add, the statements posted by hwblu fall under the category of "aggravated ignorance".
P.S. to David Brown: You and your work are on my daily prayer list.
Lily.
Dear Lily: You and I share the same profession!!
I have heard from a lot of people today with regards to my interview this morning.
Thanks for the prayers
I propose a ban for hwblu. Makes me go spuueey for a different reason.
In support of the hwblu ban, hwblu uses six (6) exclamation points. Follow the signs?
hwblu.
Answer my questions. Better yet. Go away.
How about - HEWILLBELIFTEDUP AND GO AWAY.
hewillbeliftedup!!!,
I must call you on your blatant lie. Even the internal report that David Coombs presented back in January said the victim will not let his own kids get near PW. How the heck is that a good relationship. On top of that....why would anyone want to maintain a relationship with someone who abused him or her? Your arguement makes as much sense as trying to put out a fire with gasoline.
Maybe you should research that a little more before flapping your gums.
Please allow me to clarify.
HEWILLBELIFTEDUP AND GO AWAY is in reference to the blogger, not the inference of the blog name.
Dear Idiot: Poof you are gone. You want to talk to my wife, go for it. My contact information has been on my profile from day one. Why don't you reveal yourself. Afraid? In case you don't know how to look at my profile, I will post it below.
But be forewarned, I am a licensed private investigator. If you call, I will know who you are, if you email I can trace you. So bring it on. Oh I do have recorders on my phones. So dial away.
But from the tone of your posts, I think most of us know who you are already. Does the name insane idiot ring a bell?
And that folks is the last I am going to say to this fool. Please leave him alone. I am more than capapble of taking care of myself.
David Brown
davidbrown@bigriver.net
901/569-4500
hwblu,
Let me get this straight:
Because you contend that CW forgave his father, you think that PW should have been allowed to stay on staff, and be around children and keep his same job where he sat in judgement as to whether or not VOLUNTEERS were fit to work with children?
Do you think that CW would allow his own children to be alone with his father? Let me assure you that isn't going to happen, and without even knowing CW, i'll tell you why:
BECAUSE PEDOPHILES NEVER CHANGE!!!!
And if you are so sure that PW is harmless, take your children or grandchildren over to his house for the weekend. If you are not willing to do that, SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE!!!
You know NOTHING about abuse, as a victim, anyway. I am beginning to wonder if you know waaaay too much about it from the other aspect, though.
WHY:
1100 Words You Need To Know
You can get it at Barnes and Nobles
Why posted a truth.
God does not laugh at sin, He hates it.
Unconfessed sin/covered up sin is how BBC was destroyed.
why.
You talking to me? I hope so. We need to talk.
Wasn't that your 5:48 post that said 'Done with you BYE'?
Man of your word, huh?
oc.
BBCOF,
Look at that post. Now I know why you called him 'whyne'.
Whose got the cheese to go with that whyne?
Scratching head, wondering why the book , " 1100 Words You Need to Know " is a sin.
Why, are you SURE you aren't that church lady on Saturday Night Live?
You sure don't seem to have any joy in life..your two favorite words ( due to a lack of vocabulary) are HATE and LIES.
Just tryin to help. You would be so much more effective in your diatribe if your vocabulary was bumped up to say, oh, i dunno, THIRD GRADE???
As the bowels of ignorance seem to post more than others at this hour, I will shut down and catch up later in the week as time permits.
Proverbs 10:21
The lips of the righteous feed many: but fools die for want of wisdom.
Why: I will take my chances with HIM and how HE judges me. I am not really worried about what you think. Is that being agressive, mean-spirited? Maybe. But you really don't know me. I do know you cannot fight this horrible crime by being timid.
I have learned a long time ago I am not going to make everyone happy when dealing with this issue. Nor do I want to. See what really counts are the vicitms that I hear from. So call me the names, make all the judgments you want. Trust me people more powerful than you have taken their shots at me and I am still here. OH they even used their real names.
Oh to the "idiot, my wife has been waiting by the phone, you want that interview? Better hurry, we are off to bed.
Okay, I have now received permission from someone directly involved to post this. Surely you must realize that the threat of going to jail isn't the only reason one might decide to retain the services of an attorney.
The victim hired an attorney (the same attorney who was present with him the first time he reviewed the Investigation Team's report) to protect his rights regarding false information being released by BBC. Whatever the state of his current relationship with his father, he does not stand in defense of him in this matter. The attorney the victim hired was for his protection and to advise him. It had nothing to do with protecting his father. And just to verify for you, David Brown does know the attorney personally.
PW hired his own attorney who reportedly advised him not to comply with several things the victim wanted to make known, so father and son were at odds on several issues.
I now ask that this be the end of discussion in this forum about this specific matter unless the victim or the source for this information decides to make a statement.
Only someone with a third grade vocabulary ( and IQ) would think that the ONLY reason a person hires an attorney is over threat of going to jail.
DUH
SOTL,
Consider the source.
someone wrote:
"The plans they have for Bellevue will answer many of your questions... "
And that, sheeps, is the stuff nightmares are made from! 'Night.
whyne,
David Brown has an e-mail address on his profile. If you have anything to say to him, e-mail him! You are not welcome here. SHUT UP AND GO AWAY!
NBBCOF
whyne,
Do Brother Steve and Bryan Miller know one of their deacons is being such a bad boy??? Or did one of them send you here?
Dear Fellow Saints: I cannot thank you all enough for your prayers. Yesterday I heard from several new victims. One I met with this morning. Please be in much prayer for these dear souls that are making that transition from victim to survivor. It is a tough road for them and they need all the love and support they can get.
I would like to address for what I hope is the last time, this attorney thing with the PW mess. I have always advised victims to NEVER meet with any investigative body alone. I stand on that and past history has proven me correct. Often at this point in their journey, victims are very fragile and vunerable. There was more than ample reason to be suspect of the leadership at Bellevue in that situation. He wanted to be sure his rights were being protected. It was simpy that, nothing else. No lawsuts or defending anyone, nothing like that. I think most can understand that.
Lastly, as for some the "other" posters last night, why won't you contact me? You say you want this interview and then you challenge me but you steadfastly refuse to even speak to me. What in the world are you afraid of? You make absurd charges and when someone replies and calls you down, you stoop to name calling and making even more stupid comments. You won't let it go. And then when you really get your fingers stepped on, you start quoting the Bible. GIVE ME A BREAK! Some even run over to Mikey's blog.
Look I am not a mystery. My name has been on my profile since the beginning, way before this site and saving Bellevue. All you have to do is punch in those 7 little numbers to my phone. I have it on 24/7.
What got me going last night was when one of the idiots tired to bring my wife into it. You crossed a huge line. You certainly don't know her or you would have never gone there. But you are still welcome to "interview" her. She is more than capable of telling you how and what she feels. But you might not like what she has to say about you though. She told me last night how she felt about your wanting to interview her and I begged her not to talk like that to you if you called.
Look I regularly hear from some that really disagreed wtih me when this thing first happened and still to this day we exchange emails. I just ask you take up your arguments with me off this blog. All I am trying to do is help victims and protect our children. If you don't like my style of words, get used to it. Better yet what are you doing to protect and help them our children?
Victims want to know that when they come forward, they will be beieved, loved on and supported. The last thing they want is someone that says they support them then backs down or hides when the fire gets hot. I have through that fire with HIM.
David Brown
davidbrown@bigriver.net
901/569-4500
powerGmommy. I appreciate your thoughts, but please don’t envision me as always warm and wise. I am nothing more than a sinner saved by His glorious grace.
And, I LIKE YOU, TOO! :)
I like all of the sincere folks here; actually, even though I don’t know who most of you are, I love you if you are a child of the King.
David Brown, the work you are doing is surely close to the heart of God. I am not familiar with SNAP or with your work other than what I’ve read on the blog in the last couple of months, but I am praying for your continued success in helping these hurting souls.
There is one villain – Satan. And, he has a multitude of people who do his will on the earth, and far too many (even one is too many), of his emissaries are in the industry of religion.
There is one problem – sin.
There is one answer – Jesus Christ.
And there is one often-overlooked requirement in order for a victim to transition into a survivor who is truly free of any and all of the pain of the past. And, as strange as it sounds, that is the total forgiveness of the perpetrator by the one who was abused, even if the perpetrator does not seek or even want forgiveness. Of course, it takes time before this can happen but it is ever so necessary.
I hope you use this concept of forgiveness because it will mean the difference in a victim who becomes a survivor who still carries some baggage, or a survivor who is truly free indeed. I write this to you as one who is living proof of these facts.
May God bless you,
Mary
Dear Mary: Thank you so much for your words of wisdom. So much of what you said is true.
Unforunately for a lot of victims of clergy abuse, trusting anyone, especially God is very difficult thing to work through. I have been blessed in the work I do to try and let them know there is hope. I was fortunte in the fact that I had repressed my memories of this abuse until I had a strong faith. I pray constantly for those that were hurt and do not want anything to do with God. You just have to love on them, not condemn them or preach to them. I have seen lives changed in time. That is what we as advocates of this horrible crime fight for, for them to make the transition from victim to survivor.
I do think that most victims have forgiven their abusers. The primary question in most of their minds is why? I hear that over and over again. I know in 1996 when it all came to me, one of the first things I attempted was to contact my perp to ask that vey question. But he was deceased.
Yes many of us are angry. I have called it righteous anger. It is often right below the surface. Yesterday during the interview we discussed the physical and mental abuse we sustain but there is a scar much more deeper, it is a soul murder or soul rape that we endure. And that does not go away. Are we wrong to speak out in righteous anger? I will let HIM deal with us one that and not some mortal self-righteous man. I am much more willing to take my chances with HIM. Look if man can justify a beer ministry and call it good, I think HE can accept me and others speaking out passionately and sometimes harshly about this evil crime.
Look for some they don't like to talk about this stuff. They wish I would go away. But, I can tell you since this thing at Bellevue hit and the discussions on this blog, many and I mean many victims have healed and gotten help. Anytime you shed light on such an evil that loves the darkness, you win. We all win.
I was asked yesterday if I regret waiting 35 years to come forward. Not for one minute. I was not ready until then. My answer to them was a victim should come forward when they are ready. Not until then. There is no timetable or model you must follow. Yesterday 4 very dear victims were ready. Praise the Lord.
David Brown
Mary said...
I’d like to add an additional comment from the previous thread about appropriate dress for services. My own post stated how I personally feel one should approach dressing for church.
As PowerGmommy said, “WE HAD STANDARDS.” Yes, we certainly did and it didn’t have anything to do with how much money we had to spend on our clothing, but it had everything to do with dignity and respect.
Mary/Gmommy,
Several years ago my husband and I attended our daughter's parent day at BBC. Her Jr./Sr. high teacher was the wife of a pastor. This teacher came in with a mini skirt on and no hose. She sat down right across from my husband and crossed her legs, exposing most of her thighs. He turned to me and with reddened face, said he'd see me afterwards. We never went back. Neither did our daughter.
It is no wonder the youth of today see no problem with inappropriate dress, they get it from the leadership.
andrea wrote:
"Several years ago my husband and I attended our daughter's parent day at BBC. Her Jr./Sr. high teacher was the wife of a pastor."
You might want to emphasize that she was the wife of a pastor (i.e. a staff minister), not the wife of the pastor. :-) You know how rumors get started.
David,
I have to add my thanks to you for all the wonderful, but heartwrenching work you do. I know you have a special place in Heaven for the work you do.
I stand with you on your challenge to those trolls on this blog who want to act tough in their anonymity and thinks it's funny to name call. It's not funny and the people/trolls that do it anonymously are nothing but cowards who fear the TRUTH coming out. I've never been anonymous and it's very interesting how much guff people with give you, but never want to back up what they say when you ask them to email you or meet you in person.
David, again thank you for the work you do and keep no stone unturned!
Karen Turk Marshall
(in case those anonymous trolls have forgotten my name!)
Yeeaahh, Truthseekers, Whaaat's Haappeniing?
Did I miss the rukkus? How's everyone?
Yo Cakes!
I guess we missed some sort of ruckus last night, but no harm, no foul I guess. I wrote emails to Mike Bratton & a couple others about watchinghistory and his rants. Or well, I guess they didn't listen, but at least he's not over here.
karen
Yeah,
I've cleared the room over at Bratton's challenging his lumping all of Islam together as out for world domination.
A timid bunch, they are.
I saw that, but I don't know enough about it to jump into that fray.
:)
Cakes,
you didn't clear the room of all of us....
and besides, you don't really seem interested in discussing Islam as much as you seem interested in pointing out the faults of Christianity....
bepatient,
Well, don't let what I've actually stated ad infinitum keep you from believing that, friend.
That way, you may dissme me wholesale (like a Muslim), and not get your hands dirty engaging my counterpoint.
Hi 'cakes,
Interesting as that topic might be in some other venue, if you don't mind, I'd just as soon not see a lot of discussion about it here either. What else is going on? :-)
Karen wrote:
"Or well, I guess they didn't listen, but at least he's not over here."
He was.
No prob, Nass.
Nothing much going on--just looking for summer work now that school is out for the summer. That and recovering from my camping trip with the Pagans--it rained every single day. :(
Wish you'd brought some of that rain back with you. It tends to put a damper on camping, but we could sure use it here now. I think it's just teasing us tonight.
Cakes don't apologize. NASS could have brought back some of that ice when she went ice fishing in MN.
lovecakes said...
Yeah,
I've cleared the room over at Bratton's challenging his lumping all of Islam together as out for world domination.
A timid bunch, they are.
4:34 PM, June 05, 2007
You and unmemphis have done the impossible silenced Mr. Bratton on his own blog no less
Nah, I'm sure he's biding his time, letting the quip-fodder gather and stewing something up good--ha!
like "he he he"
David wrote:
"Cakes don't apologize. NASS could have brought back some of that ice when she went ice fishing in MN."
No, David. You forget I live in MN. We need rain here, too! :-) But I heard y'all are way behind on rainfall in Memphis. Will FedEx transport ice? Maybe I could send you some!
The Rain was in Mason this afternoon! :). At least I got to test the wipers out on my new car though lol.
'cakes, bopeap,
We don't like to talk about "that" here.
I remember all too well the evolution of 'cakes' handle, but if you don't mind my asking, what's a "bopeap"?
Like Lil' Bo Peep, Nass. Sorry about "that;" I bit.
when I signed on for the first time I hit the wrong keys it should have been bopeep. I'm new at this.
bopeap,
That typo can be corrected. Click on your name and then click on Edit Profile. You can go in and change the name that is visible when you post :).
Lynn
All,
Tomorrow is the last Wednesday morning for MS bible study until next September. Anyone interested in a meet-a-blogger meeting afterwards?
We could put a 'B' on our name tags and then meet to show our 'secret rings'. Ha ha ha.
I’ll be there…. Lord willing that is.
Thanks Lyn
I just want to tell you guys that you are standing for the truth and I am a former BBC member who left soon after Steve Gaines took over. You guy's have more fight than I do I had my fighting spirit broken years ago at another church .
Padroc,
Are you talking about the 7 AM thing at MA???....not PM by any chance?????
bopeap,
where did you end up??
Nowhere I'm burnt out on churches now.
bo,
I DO understand!
Thanks ,I thought Iwas the only one.
Dear David,
I hear what you are saying and I understand. For the sake of clarity, my abuser was not a member of the clergy, but my own father. I understand the awful guilt, the rage, and the ever-present internal scream of “WHY?” I know about the shattering of trust and the twice betrayal of the soul – first by the perpetrator and then by God who seemed to be far away on vacation during those horrifying years of childhood.
I do not have a panacea or a magic bullet, but I will share with you the model that was presented to me when I sought professional help in my early 30’s. The process was painfully difficult at times and it took me to places I didn’t want to go and brought back memories I didn’t want to relive. I was tempted more than once to chunk it all, but I didn’t, and I can honestly say that ever since I completed the process I have been totally and peacefully free – for which I give all praise and glory to God.
As a victim, I had to come to the realization that I had A CHOICE to make – be silent and continue to suffer (and with the possibly of getting worse), or speak up and begin the healing process. For many, speaking up takes great courage and only those who have experienced abuse can appreciate how difficult this decision can be. This was particularly painful for me because other family members that I loved dearly would be hurt and I felt that burden deeply.
I had to ADMIT THE ABUSE – to myself and to others. It happened – period. And all the wishing in the world would not unscramble that egg. I had to face it and see it for what it was – an INNOCENT child that was sinfully abused by an evil adult.
I had to come to the realization that I was indeed an INNOCENT victim – an INNOCENT child. I was not in any way responsible for what happened to me. I did not want it, I did not cause it, I did not like it, and I was helpless to prevent it. Sounds easy, but as I’m sure you know, it is not.
I had to CONFRONT ALL of my emotions. I chose to spill them out with pen in hand – I wrote letters by the dozens. I wrote with honesty from the depths of my gut and I held nothing back -- nothing. I wrote to those who knew or suspected what was happening to me but chose to look the other way. And yes, I even wrote letters to God. My letters were not kind, actually, they were quite ugly, but they were honest.
I kept those letters for several months, reading and re-reading them, and adding to them as I recalled more details. It was a very painful experience, and yet, it became a cleansing process, for each time I would work on them and then tuck them safely away, I would feel a little lighter and a little freer than before. I began to realize that each of these people acted as they did, not because they didn’t care that I was being abused, but because of their own tangled circumstances. Slowly, I began to come to a level of understanding that I had not known before – not to excuse them, but to understand – to help me with the question of why.
I had one more letter to write – the most painful one of all – to my father. And to compound my problem, my father was now deceased. It almost seemed a sacrilege somehow to write such raw and painful emotions to a dead man, but I did it, and again, I held nothing back.
I treated this letter as I had the others – re-reading and adding more details over time – details about him, about his parents, about who he was and what he was, and of course, full and complete expressions of my eternal hatred of him. I searched and searched for the answer to my internal scream of why, but I could find nothing.
I began to read all of the letters for what would become the last time, except for the one to my father. And as I read them, I forgave each person, one by one, because I wanted to forgive them.
I forgave God because I had come to understand that the clay has no right to question the methods of the Master Potter. I repented on my face before Him, and begged for, and received his mercy. I carried the letters to the fireplace and burned them.
I took my father’s letter, and together with my wonderful husband, I drove several hundred miles to where he was buried. I sat on the ground by his grave and read each line as if he could hear me. I can’t begin to tell you how my tears flowed. And as the words and the emotions came tumbling out, I began to understand that I would never really know why, so I would just have to accept that he did what he did because he was who he was. And through my tears, I forgave my father.
I tore up the letter and scattered it over his grave and we drove back to Memphis. I was now free – completely free. I was just beginning to realize the power in forgiveness, but I would come to know it more and more about it as they years went by.
David, it’s been over 30 years now, and I know that my past cannot hurt me ever again. I am free indeed – free because the Son set me free, and He gave me the strength to go the last and most difficult mile of the healing journey – forgiving my abuser.
Because He lives!
Mary
Dear Mary: Praise the Lord! Your story will help others that you will never know about. Thank you so much for sharing. God Bless you.
Mary, you are precious in His site, and your testimony, so difficult, but so exalting to the Great I Am. HE is so Wonderful!
mommy and bopeep,
Good reading at "http://teampyro.blogspot.com/"
Why we go to church. Sort af a different take. Not really what we get out of it but what we give to it.
It may help.....
Mary,
I know that I can never really understand how God has worked in your life. All I can say is that I stand in awe of his grace, and I am amazed by how he has manifested himself in the lives of His children.
Mary: Bless your heart. I don't know how you walked that path but I am so thankful you did. God is still on His throne and He loves you so much.
Hey, oc, you've got mail!
Mary, Thank you for sharing that testimony of God's grace. He is truly a God of wonders!
Mary,
Thank you for sharing and blessing us with your story of God's healing in your life.
It was encouraging to me (back in the early 90's) the first time I heard women, bonded thru this horrible betrayal,share their hope and healing.
Our individual journeys thru the healing process are as unique as our childbirth experiences. (hope that is not a bad example)
Just as the consistent love and nurturing we give our children help them become resilient,
loving support is very important for victims and many times lacking.
I hope we have all become more sensitive and compassionate to those in this "club" they didn't ask to join.
We WANT more Mary's out there!!!
powerGmommy said...
Padroc,
Are you talking about the 7 AM thing at MA???....not PM by any chance?????
9:10 PM, June 05, 2007
Yes. sorry so late to respond.
Ezekiel,
no instructions necessary about not forsaking the assembling..or the purpose of worship. I do appreciate your concern.
Sometimes a little break is needed.
Junk.
Thanks. You got mail back. bro.
Oh Mary,
Thank you for your gift of hope wrapped in forgiveness. I believe that your testimony can be just the encouragement God has prepared for another who is just now working up the courage to address their painful past.
I will be praying for those who will sooner or later decide to unwrap your gift and receive the encouragement and hope within.
This morning's LWF devotional was very timely for some of the struggles of the dear "wandering sheep" we know. I thought I would share....
BIBLE MEDITATION:
“Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.” Hebrews 10:25
DEVOTIONAL THOUGHT:
Do you know what is happening in America today? People who claim to be Christians are not getting involved and becoming faithful to a church — the local fellowship of believers. Such a thing was unheard of in the Bible. If you were a Christian, you were faithful to the fellowship. You attended when everyone gathered together. If you stopped attending, they assumed that you were an apostate. What is more important than the local visible expression of the body of Christ? It is the way we stay “plugged in” to the needs of the body of Christ. It is the way we show honor to Him in worship. It is simply the way.
This is going to be my final post here. Over the last couple of months, I've sat back mostly as an observer of the blog. An observation or two:
There are some facts I think everyone needs to come to grips with...Steve Gaines isn't going anywhere on his own...none of us knows what God will do with BBC if anything...it's not God's will for his people to not to be attached and accountable to a local body of believers. No blog or forum is a suitable substitute for the fellowship of a local assembly, and if one comes to this or any other forum every day, yet "floats" continuously, or does not seek to be joined to a local body, then that forum has become an idol. I think the Scriptures will bear me out on that. The responsibility to rid the church of false teachers is ultimately on the congregation...if that congregation shows no interest in doing such, it's time to move to another assembly. To remain attached to a local assembly which you are convinced is abiding false teaching, and the will of the congregation is to abide it, then you have a duty to leave and join another local body. To remain under those conditions will breed cynicism and bitterness, which is death to the Christian's walk. If you can't submit to the authority of the body you are a member of, and you aren't submitted to the authority of another local body, then you are walking around without the accountability God has ordained for us in the church. I don't know the thoughts or intents of anyone on this blog, and I'm not trying to presume that I do...as my grandmother used to say...if your phone's ringing, answer it. For your own sakes, and for the sake of Christ's body, get planted someplace where your gifts can be used for God's glory and the building up of the body in the faith, and for your own spiritual health. Take a break from the blog, instead of taking a break from the assembly. Some of you will be angry at these words...that's ok...I'm speaking as your brother in the Lord. You are all in my prayers. Grace and Peace to you all.
The last post was from "allofgrace"...different username.
allofgrace,
Thanks for bringing those words to me today. I really needed that - I will miss you, but hopefully we'll get to see each other at another church soon. I'll email you. Have a great day!
karen
Check out sbc.net. David Rogers is being nominated for vice president of the SBC! YAY!
As a precautionary FYI, go to David Rogers’ blog and click on his profile – pay special attention to his Favorite Books. He lists, among others, The Purpose Driven Life and also The Purpose Driven Church. You will have to copy and paste the link because I don’t know how to insert it, but his blog can be found here: http://loveeachstone.blogspot.com/
I don’t know the significance of this, or even if there is any, but I do find it disturbing.
mary,
I saw that quite some time ago on David Rogers' blog. It is disturbing, but he and his father are very different people. Dr Rogers was adamant about his opinion on the meaning of "purpose driven" (see Michael Priest's posts). Bill Skelton at LWF can also elaborate on Dr Rogers' opinions of the "PD movement". All we can do is to pray that someone will be willing to reach out to David and explain the heresy involved in PD as Warren describes it. And pray that the Lord will open his eyes to Warrenism error and heresy.
Thanks to all who made such nice comments about my testimony. I appreciate your prayers that my story will help others to know that true peace and complete freedom is indeed available for them too. If, at the beginning of my journey, someone had told me how it would end, I would have laughed in their face. I would not have believed them.
And, I forgot to mention that the professional shrink who gave me those guidelines was an avowed atheist. Isn’t it amazing how God used him to turn me to Himself? I cannot begin to comprehend that kind of love – oh, but I believe it! I’m living proof that we serve an awesome God and the power of forgiveness cannot be underestimated.
Mom4, I'm aware of AR's opinion of the PD movement and I have also been very fearful for the SBC ever since his promotion Home.
A few weeks ago, I was fortunate enough to have a nice discussion with a local SBC pastor of a church I've been visiting. He told me he has great concerns over the direction of the SBC now. He said, "Dr. Rogers was the rod of iron" (his words) that kept the SBC straight, even after he was no longer president, and he is now fearful of the direction it will go. This pastor said his church would remain scriptural even if they had to leave the SBC.
Mary
mary,
Please tell me (or email me) with the name of the church you are talking about!! This sounds like a church/pastor I would and could support and love.
Mom4,
The church I mentioned is Kirby Woods Baptist. You can listen to Brother Bob, the pastor, on their website -- just copy and paste: http://www.kwbc.org/
I've visited several times and they seem to be a very warm and caring group of folks. I'm also visiting GBC and Faith Baptist. The Lord has spun me around but he hasn't pointed me in a particular direction yet. :)
Mary,
We are in the same boat. We have visited several churches and liked them all for the most part, but the Lord has not planted us anywhere - Yet! We are praying He will soon. We need to be connected.
Mom4, I forgot to mention -- Brother Bob does not preach on Wed. night. :(
Dr. Rogers loved PDL and highly recommended it for all churches. Because he endorsed the concept many churches (ours) presented and taught our people to go out and teach others. Does this mean that we were wrong to follow Dr. Rogers recommendation? Did he mislead people? Do we have him to blame for all of the mess our churches are in? I am confused.
I am certain that he told his son what he told us. I had heard that his wife often disagreed with Dr. Rogers but never his son.
Please find out what you can and let us know because we have many in our congregation who are weary of Warrenism.
Hey, 'cakes,
Did you hear about the Buddhist who refused Novocain during a root canal?
His goal: transcend dental medication.
Karen LOUDLY groans at junk's joke! :)
heresy:
1. any opinions or doctrines at variance with the official or orthodox position [syn: unorthodoxy] [ant: orthodoxy]
2. a belief that rejects the orthodox tenets of a religion
cassie,
I truly believe Dr. Rogers would rescind his approval of PDL once he got below the surface. Call LWF to confirm this though. I only know what I've been told - check with LWF to confirm.
karen
Mary,
From what I've heard Kirby Woods is one of those wonderful "soft places to fall" for the BBC refugees. I haven't visited there yet, but I'm still making the rounds. My husband and I went to Central Church this past Sunday and they had Lord's Supper. What a blessing that was!
karen
David Rogers is also strongly behind the Private Prayer Language Movement and certain aspects of Tongues in the SBC. Does anyone know why he is so different from his father in this area?
I quote Aslansown with his permission, thusly and like so:
"I have first-hand info on the PDL issue. Dr. Rogers resisted bringing it to Bellevue. The staff had to persuade him to do so. He expressed serious reservations regarding its' effectiveness and orthodoxy. I have this information from Mark Gates, David Smith and Bryson McQuistion. I also asked Dr. R in person and he told me he was not totally convinced that PDL was without fault, but that we could apply the basic tenets with a strong scriptural backing and take the best out of it and not make of it a cult. This is why it was undertaken as a Wednesday night study. It was not to replace strong doctrinal teaching that was supposed to be taking place on Sunday."
Mr. Guthrie,
I'm glad you are here today! In regard to your post about the "Private Prayer Language Movement" - while I have no 1st hand knowledge about how David Rogers feel about it (I recommend asking him on his blog), I do have a question for you.
Why is speaking in tongues now referred to as "Private Prayer Language Movement"? I think this proves the point of a few days back when we were discussing with Michael Priest (minister of Bartlett Baptist Church) in regard to "prayer walks". While "speaking in tongues" is an age old practice for some, why the new, updated, seemingly more spiritual name for it? Was it not appealing to the "unchurched" (I really can't stand that term!)? Did it conjure thoughts of snakes and poison?
Prayer walks - in the same way speaking in tongues has - have been a practice where members of a church walk around their church or neighborhood and pray for the people or events in those specific areas. Now "prayer walking" can be confused with walking a labrynth or stations.
I'm just wonder what your take is on this new slick term. Thanks!
tim guthrie wrote:
"David Rogers is also strongly behind the Private Prayer Language Movement and certain aspects of Tongues in the SBC. Does anyone know why he is so different from his father in this area?"
Wow! There's a blast from the past! I see Mr. Guthrie is still lurking. If you've come here to beat us up again, please don't. If you've had a change of heart, I'll apologize. I can't help but recall this tidbit from one of your previous visits though:
In December tim guthrie wrote:
"May God bless your Pastor and may God convict the hearts of the many on here who are close to judgement. I am praying this blogs gets a malfunction and quickly."
Just wanted to remind people of that.
Now, as for your comment, it's ironic that I was about to post a link someone sent me about that very subject. I found some of these statistics surprising to say the least.
Here ya go.
NASS! Why didn't you warn me that your post contained the dreaded "LifeWay" reference. I burned my corneas!
Another book from David Rogers' recommended reading list.
"Seeker Small Groups" which is available from the guys at Willow Creek.
http://www.willowcreek.com/product.asp?invtid=PR22389&action=details
So we have Rick Warren, Willow Creek, and a book encouraging seeker sensitive small groups.
Anything wrong with that?
The SBC IMB has had quite a riff going on for the last year about speaking in tongues. And it will surely be a topic of great disscussion at the SBC next week.
See:
http://www.imb.org/main/news/details.asp?LanguageID=1709&StoryID=3841
Reply from letter sent to David Rogers regarding comments made about him and his supposed PPL movement leadership:
I just sent in a reply to the lead reporter of the Southern Baptist Texan asking me this question, along with various others.
In any case, here is what I wrote to her (my answer in italics below).
7) BACKGROUND: The LifeWay survey on glossolalia asked Protestant SBC pastors: "Do you believe that the Holy Spirit gives some people the gift of a special language to pray to God privately? Some people refer to this as a Private Prayer Language or the 'private use of tongues.'" Fifty percent of Southern Baptist pastors answered "Yes," 43 percent said "No," and 7 percent responded "Don't know." Sixty-two percent of Southern Baptist senior pastors understand "tongues" in the New Testament to mean the "God-given ability to speak another language" Forty-one percent of Southern Baptist pastors believe "this gift was only given in the days of the Apostles." While 55% of recent SBC seminary graduates believe the gift of tongues has ceased.
Q. In light of LifeWay's research, what concerns do you have about the advocacy or practice of a private prayer language among Southern Baptists?
As Southern Baptists, we have, for the most part, avoided traditional Pentecostal interpretation on the need to seek after any particular spiritual gift or manifestation as a sign of greater spiritual commitment, blessing or maturity. I think we do well to maintain this position. However, I think we should, at the same time, be open to realizing that there are those among us, who, without seeking to impose their opinion or experience on others, believe in, and some who practice, what has been called a "private prayer language." I believe this is a matter of less important concern, which we should not allow to compromise our fellowship and cooperation with each other in the furtherance of the gospel.
I have expressed my view in a lot more detail on various posts on my blog at http://loveeachstone.blogspot.com/. Check the archives.
Let me know if you have any further questions.
Blessings,
David
Sorry, Karen. Mine had a big banner ad saying "Become a U.S. Army Chaplain." I'm sure that distracted me!
One can only hope they read the WORD before they begin debate. Otherwise we could come up with some more Baptist "doctrine" that just ain't Biblical....course that doesn't seem to have bothered us in the past.....
NASS,
That's okay - blinding light worked for Saul/Paul, so maybe it'll work for me! :)
karen
aslansown said...
Reply from letter sent to David Rogers regarding comments made about him and his supposed PPL movement leadership:
...
However, I think we should, at the same time, be open to realizing that there are those among us, who, without seeking to impose their opinion or experience on others, believe in, and some who practice, what has been called a "private prayer language. I believe this is a matter of less important concern, which we should not allow to compromise our fellowship and cooperation with each other in the furtherance of the gospel.
I think this was a well-reasoned and appropriate response on David Rogers' part, and if it accuratly reflects his views I see nothing there to be upset about.
rinah,
Please make your profile visible. It's required here.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
DANGER, Will Robinson!
Prayer Stations, Prayer Walking, Private Prayer Languages, PDL, PDC, CGM, Seeker Groups, etc???
This will all become clear when the SBC begins reporting visions of the Virgin Mary and LifeWay starts selling rosaries to the sheeps who bees too dumb to search the Scripture. May God have mercy!
junk quoted:
"However, I think we should, at the same time, be open to realizing that there are those among us, who, without seeking to impose their opinion or experience on others, believe in, and some who practice, what has been called a "private prayer language."
In other words, don't ask, don't tell?
New BBC Open Forum said...
In other words, don't ask, don't tell?
No, in other words,
youtiemytieitiemytie
shouldaboughtahonda!
David Brown asked me to post this e-mail exchange he had with someone yesterday. I think it presents another side of the coin. David redacted all personal information from the e-mail before he sent it, so I do not know the identity of the person who wrote it.
This is in no way meant to be critical of the person who asked the question or of Mary. It's an honest question from someone who seemed to be asking it sincerely and an honest answer from someone who's been there and knows what he's talking about.
xxxx wrote:
"I want to assure you that this is an honest question, which I would very much like to hear your answer. I am trying to be tactful, which is going be hard typing this out.
"My question to you is this, when does a victim quit being a victim?
"I realize that I will never know what people who were abused went through in life, but at some point do they not have to pull themselves up and continue on? I have always been of the mindset that the only person that makes you a victim is yourself.
"I would like to hear your thoughts on this please, and again I mean no disrespect to anyone."
David Brown replied:
Dear xxxx: First of all I want to thank you for asking your question in this manner and not doing it on the blog. You would have been hit with a lot of negative feedback if you had.
But before I answer that I would like to share with you a little more about me that you do not know and I rarely make it public. This is in response to some of the posts of the dear victim Mary. Mary tells us to forgive and then we will have peace. I know that is so true but what about the victims that hate God or blame Him? What do we do with them? And trust me there are many more of those types of victims than Mary or myself.
For myself I forgave my perp and even the Catholic Church long, long ago. I knew from my deep faith I must do that. I did receive some serious counseling from a very good Christian counselor. What you don't know about me is my love of sharing Jesus. I love to give my testimony. I still speak to churches and sometimes on Sunday mornings. I am very active with the Christian Motorcycle Association and the Bill Glass prison ministries. I take the Gospel to places most folks wouldn't even dare. I go to motorcycle rallies where most men would be afraid to go in. We set up our booth, serve water and coffee and share when the opportunities present themselves. And we do see lives changed. In the prisons, we take our motorcycles inside the jail. We are locked in the same units as they are without the guards so the inmates will feel private. When I had my Harley I was asked to take it into death row in Nashville. I spoke at great length with Philip Workman and others there. But if I tried the same tactics with victims of clergy abuse I would be useless.
Now to answer your question. I do find that mindset very offensive and it really shows how little understanding you probably have of this horrific crime. Even Mary was wise to add the disclaimer about not knowing what it is like to be a victim of clergy abuse. Unfortunately it is something that is totally different. Please let me urge you to do just a little research. Please go to the national S.N.A.P. website and to the Darkness To Light website. Both are excellent sites. I am part of SNAP and very proud of them. If was not for SNAP and in particular, Ann Brentwood, I would not be doing what I do today. But on the "d2l" site you will find stats that I often quote. There are over 39 million victims of child sexual abuse in the United States. It does not include those that were abused as vulnerable adults. That is a very scary number.
Your question leaves an implication that somehow some of this must have been the victim's fault. How in the world is that possible? Please tell me one thing that any victim did that was wrong. I hear that thinking often by people that do not want to face the reality of this horrible crime and wish people like me would go away. Well that is not going to happen. I also hope you saw my interview on WREG on Monday. If not you can go to their site.
It is never the victim's fault, NEVER! As to when they quit being a victim, it is when they are ready. They then make that delicate transition to becoming a survivor. When do they become a survivor? When they are ready. Sometimes survivors will speak out. I think your question should have been when do they quit speaking out and saying some of the things we say. The answer to that one is very simple, NEVER! Because if we do, then we fail other victims and potential victims. This crime loves darkness and silence. It thrives on it and it counts on us remaining silent. We must do everything we can to fight this horrible crime. That includes you. I challenge you to look at the 3 things I have mentioned and then get back with me. I need your help. If people like you and me do not work together, we are turning our backs on those 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys that WILL BE ABUSED before they turn 18. And in 10 more years the 39 million number will seem so wretchedly small. Now let me ask you to re-read your question and answer it truthfully. God is watching.
I want to thank you so much for emailing me. It is important we all work together to fight this crime. You have gifts that are different from mine, and that is what makes us so special when we work as one. This crime must be stopped. It is going to take more than this old man speaking out and asking for change. It is going to require ALL of us and includes you, too.
I have said it over and over again. I count it all joy and blessing that I have endured the trauma and abuse that I did at the hands of Father Paul Fredrick Haas. It is because of that abuse and my personal relationship with Christ that I can do what I do best and that is helping others. We Christians often quote Romans 8:28. I am a living example that it works. However I would share one more section of Scripture that was given to me during the mess at Bellevue. 2 Cor. 1:3-7. I count it a privilege to have worked with this young man. Will you help me work with others? There is much work to do. You have blessed me with your question. I hope I answered it. It may not be what you wanted to hear but it is the truth. May God continue to bless you. And please do not let this be the last time you contact me.
David Brown 901/569-4500
junk wrote:
"No, in other words,
youtiemytieitiemytie
shouldaboughtahonda!"
Is there an interpreter in the house? You know there's got to be!
Oh, junk! All I can think of is Robert Tilton... and those videos. Now stop it!
Word on the street is that Steve Gaines has been shopping his resume out to about 5 churches. I've heard no church wants him including one in Dallas.
Could it be that he's testing the waters to see how deep the damage is or has he been advised by the Elders to start looking since the numbers in the pew and in the offering plate are sagging substantially?
Has anyone heard that Mark Dougharty is going to be the new associate pastor of Charles Stanley's church in Atlanta?
NASS,
I was just curious as to how this would fit into all the discussion concerning PDL, Willow Creek and the charismatic movement on this blog.
Though you and I disagree with how the conflict at BBC is being dealt with (I still think blogging about it and the public name calling etc of a Pastor is wrong - though wrong has been done on both sides), I really was only trying to gain insight to this new event of huge significance in the SBC.
So sorry you had to take the time to research a comment and try to attack me :). I think many on this blog would be troubled as I am at the current developments involving PPL.
Have a wonderful evening :)
Word on the street is that Elvis was at CostCo today buying a giant sized jar of peanut butter.
Has anyone heard that Lindsey Lohan is trying to get herself arrested so she can spend time in jail with her friend Paris?
Winning Truth w/Tim Guthrie
So sorry you had to take the time to research a comment and try to attack me :).
Reminding folks of something you said (and apparently meant) in the past is an attack?
Wow. Unbelievable. Sad.
PPL. Personal prayer language. Seems to me something else to generate a feeling of pride and arrogance to think that one has a different or better way to communicate with our heavenly father.
I guess one endowed with this personal language just feels no need for the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:26-27
The way I read it, the Spirit within us communicates our needs to the Father through groanings that cannot be uttered............
Can anyone show us any place in the OT or the NT where any man used a PPL to communicate with GOD?
ezekiel said...
Can anyone show us any place in the OT or the NT where any man used a PPL to communicate with GOD?
Not saying I agree, but those who practice and teach about "personal prayer language" use 1 Cor 14:13-15:
"Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also."
Mr. Guthrie,
You have to admit (if you remember) that you were pretty rough on us back then, and there's been a lot more sheep-beating in the months since. Nothing you said earlier today (or the way you said it) was offensive. I also didn't "attack" you -- unless you consider me quoting you an attack.
Also, I didn't have to do much research. First of all, I remembered your name and the tone of your previous comments. Second, I was surprised to see you back. So I merely looked up the one e-mail you sent me, noted the date of 12-8-06, went to the blog archives for the day before, and did a search for your name. Took me about 60 seconds total. Thank you again for the information you posted today.
Rick Warren, in The Purpose-Driven Life, has an interesting section... that he calls “God-given S.H.A.P.E.” (spiritual gifts, heart, abilities, personality, and experiences).
The numbers below have been shared with the Deacons. They represent the total number of decisions that have been made at Bellevue during the month and year specified.
Jan 2007: 67
Jan 2006: 174
Jan 2005: 174
Feb 2007: 80
Feb 2006: 126
Feb 2005: 107
Mar 2007: 29
Mar 2006: 108
Mar 2005: 118
Apr 2007: 84
Apr 2006: 182
Apr 2005: 86
May 2007: 43
May 2006: 62
May 2005: 84
-------------
Jan-May 2007: Total = 303
Jan-May 2006: Total = 652
Jan-May 2005: Total = 569
-------------
So...Chuck Taylor, Bryan Miller, & Steve Tucker...you have stated in the past, and I will paraphrase:
'You can't argue with the numbers. If they're growing, God must be blessing us.'
Open question: Does this statement still apply? If so, why are new members not flocking into BBC? Where are the sheep? Where are the VBS teachers? Where are the choir members? Where are the orchestra members? Where are the Sunday School teachers? Why is Sunday School attendance down? Why is the morning church service attendance down?
Could it be...gasp...that...oh no...maybe there really are unresolved issues involving our pastor...and...get ready for this one...maybe there are even problems with our church leaders??
Integrity matters.
Character matters.
Transparency matters.
These traits do matter. I just wish they were traits exhibited by our current leadership. They are a thing of the past....
junk99mail,
Also heard on the street that Steve Marcum from the pulpit tonight told 250 in attendance that morale amongst the remaining staff had never been so high inside BBC.
That one, I do believe since birds of a feather flock together.
Big news on the horizon.
Good one, Junk! :)
maybe,
Take a deep breath.
Chill out.
Calm down.
Don't be afraid of the truth as it continues to unfold like it has the past year.
Are you not surprised over the past year how the things you couldn't believe have ended up being the truth after all?
The Truth will set you free.
Don't fight it.
maybejustmaybepatientseekinghiswill
said:
LIES!! Hate-filled! Rumors and slander! YOU need to REPENT!
God's Anointed! Man of God! Relevant! Submit!
Immature! Grow up! Crybaby!
Spew
SOTL says:
Really, now, it appears that all the trolls have morphed...a sort of ' evolution' for those who believe in the ' big bang theory'
Someone, quick!! Get IT a ring to kiss!! It's the majic formula.
nathan b.
what do you mean, ' big news on the horizon' ?
SPILL IT!! BRO!
I know!! SG is going to plant a SBC churh on the Arctic Circle and is going to take his gang of fence jumpers with him? If so, could you please mention to him that Steve Tucker LOVES cold weather?
Thanks, Junk99mail.
It just seems like a continuance of the prayer walk, labrinth, mystic stuff. What are we going to think of next. I guess anything that we can do that will make us feel good about ourselves, edify ourselves and put the focus on ourselves.
1 Cor 14:4 He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
Are "morphed trolls" the same as Superhero bad guys??????
Nathan B. said:
Has anyone heard that Mark Dougharty is going to be the new associate pastor of Charles Stanley's church in Atlanta?
SOTL says:
WHAT????????????????????
Does Charles Stanley know that MD tresspassed on private property be climbing a fence?
Does Charles Stanley know that MD paid himself a years salary in advance before SG came?
Does Charles Stanley know that MD told lie after lie about SG's dream?
HELLOOOOOOOOOOO CHARLES STANLEY!!!
Don't hook up with this dude, he's damaged goods!!!
concernedsbcer,
Yes, they are the Mighty Morphin' Power Trolls, or maybe the Teenage Mutant Ninja Trolls
NASS!!!
HELP!!! We have trolls that are morphing inside our computers!!
I THOUGHT I heard noise in there!!!
sickofthelies,
Can't spill the pot yet because it's not quite filled to the brim.
From my viewpoint, the pot is filling up and at one point, not even a pressure cooker will be able to contain.
Be patient.
No offense (:-)
Junk: I believe "Mutant" to be the operative word here...........
maybejustmaybepatientseekinghiswill wrote:
LIES!! Hate-filled! Rumors and slander! YOU need to REPENT!
God's Anointed! Man of God! Relevant! Submit!
Immature! Grow up! Crybaby!
Spew!
You left out "pointing your sinful fingers," "you have slandered me," "this blog is a fake and a fraud," and "you people are a true joke and you are full of it."
Nass: I'd like to be full of El Porton cheese dip right about now......
nbof,
How dare they catch Steve Gaines, Mark Dougharty (Associate Pastor First Baptist Atlanta), John Caldwell, and Chuck Taylor trespassing over a shinhigh fence.
How ungodly can the membership be?
But mutant troll, there's no "whyning" in there. That one and the "seeking" one are the only ones (that you listed) who've spewed hate here. In all fairness, you shouldn't put "mjm" and "bp" in the same boat.
Speaking of character and integrity…
Our own Chairman of the Deacons at BBC recently sent an email to a Bellevue member assuring him that he (Bryan) was not aware of any plan to adjourn the March 25 business meeting after a pre-determined amount of time. I’ve read the email.
Yet, David Coombs admitted to a Deacon Officer in a meeting held 3 days AFTER the business meeting that THERE WAS A PLAN TO ADJOURN THE BUSINESS MEETING AFTER APPROXIMATELY 45 MINUTES. Additionally, Bryan told this same Deacon Officer that there was a plan to adjourn the business meeting after approximately 45 minutes. I’ve talked with this Deacon Officer.
Previously, I made a statement as follows: “Either Bryan Miller lied, or he has been deceived.”
I have talked with the member who received the email from Bryan. I have talked with the Deacon Officer who met with David Coombs and with Bryan Miller. It is clear that Bryan has told these 2 people something totally different. There are direct conflicts in his statements.
I bring this issue up again because I believe it has merit. It exemplifies the lack of character in some of our so-called leaders. The other 180 or so deacons follow this man. It is sad that something so blatant can be happening right in front of so many people, yet there are still many who refuse to accept that anything is wrong.
It reminds me of a few quotes that were used quite extensively by our leaders in 2006:
1) “This many Godly men just can’t be wrong.”
2) “Swallow and follow.”
3) “It’s just a couple of people unhappy with the music.”
If this were the Gong Show, let’s just say the big ‘ol gong would have been worn out from use. Sadly though, this is our church. Our BBC leaders have conformed to the world, and the differences between Godly leaders and worldly leaders are rarely seen from BBC these days.
The lines between right and wrong have been compromised. The question is no longer “What is going on at Bellevue?” Now, the questions being asked by many families, including my own are more like: “When will it end?” and “How much longer are you going to stay?”
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