On Sunday, April 29, 2007, Dr. Steve Gaines preached a sermon in the morning services entitled "Running to Win." He began by saying his family had attended the 7th Annual Country Music Marathon and 1/2 Marathon in Nashville the day before.
During the sermon they showed these photos of the men's and women's winners on the IMAG. He mentioned this year's wheelchair winner was a man from Germantown.
Unfortunately, there are several "problems" with this story. For one, it was the 8th Annual Country Music Marathon, not the 7th, but that could have been an honest mistake. If that had been the only error I'd have thought nothing of it. However, there's more.
The two individuals represented on the IMAG as this year's winners were actually the 2006 winners. Their photos and information are here. The 2006 wheelchair winner was indeed from Germantown.
However, this year's winners were a man from Kenya and a woman from the Ukraine. Their photos and information are here. This year's wheelchair winner is from Hoschton, Georgia, not Germantown. See articles from The Tennessean.
I figured I might have to explain this to someone, and one person has asked, so here's the point. The point wasn't that he didn't do his research on this particular issue but that if he isn't concerned about adhering to the truth in a situation as inconsequential as this, how can he be trusted in matters of greater importance? It really doesn't matter if his research assistant (if he even had one) is stupid or lazy (a 6th grader could have done a better job), or he didn't stay until the end of the event to see the winners (which means he is being willfully dishonest or at the least negligent), or that he doesn't do his own research -- the point is he didn't get the most basic of facts right, and that tells me he's not any more believable when he says anything else.
Personally, I think the sermon was prepared (by him or someone else) before Saturday, so the winners weren't known and that he (or someone) was just lazy and pulled this stuff off the internet thinking no one would notice. I think when he said it was the 7th annual event this was further evidence that the information came from the internet rather than firsthand knowledge.
So call it "nitpicky" or whatever. In the grand scheme of things it's not important that Steve Gaines was in error on this particular issue. It's the much bigger issue of which this is a symptom.
"He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much." Luke 16:10
You may watch the video of that sermon (and others) on Bellevue's site. To get to the sermon archives on Bellevue's site, go to the main page, click on "Watch Now" (under the "Bellevue Media - Live On Demand On the Go" logo is), and if you click on "Launch On Demand Player" you'll get a list of past sermons on video and audio, and the titles and Scripture passages are listed. You'll also see two little links in the upper righthand corner, one for "Dr. Adrian Rogers Archive" and the other for "Sermon Notes Archive." There's another link for the latter in the middle of that page where it says "Download Past Sermon Notes."
505 comments:
1 – 200 of 505 Newer› Newest»So why "misrepresent the truth" just to make a sermon point? This man reminds me more and more of Bill Clinton every day!
MJM,
I know you're a long time choir member just as my mom used to be - she's been gone for weeks. Have you noticed? No one else from choir has noticed either, so I don't blame you. Seriously, I don't mean that as a slam, but it's true nobody seems to care that she's gone after faithful attendance in the choir since 1978.
I knew we'd disagree on Jaime - heck -> Jamie! :)
It doesn't matter what gets said, not everyone will agree with me and that's not what I posted it for.
karen
By the way all y'all,
My daddy is having knee replacement surgery on July 19th. Start praying now - he's old! :)
Thanks!
Karen
The mistakes in the sermon don't bother me. Could just be sloppiness as opposed to willful lying. Anyway no big deal to me. I don't expect perfection, so confusing dates and winners is not a big deal.
There are plenty of big deals such as the pedophile, mocking the congregation, accepting plane tickets to cheerleading camp as a "moving expense", the refusal to hold more business meetings, the gift to FUMC and others that DO bother me. Just my take on things. Plenty of big stuff to get upset about.
What is "the spirit of perfomance?" 5. He prays before church about not invoking the spirit of performance - and yet he performs each service.
bin said...
"Could just be sloppiness as opposed to willful lying."
I guess being used to the meticulous detail exhibited by the Rogers' legacy tends to make us stand up and take notice of "sloppiness" in the ministry. If that is all it is; I would hate to think that he was just pulling stuff off the internet to fluff up his sermon or to represent his experience as more than it actually was.
When someone invokes the "spirit of performance, they become the object of the praise for the woship being offered. Like putting on a show for the audience when the "audience" should be God. Not too confusing, huh?
karen
MJM,
I posted what I posted about Jamie (his real name is something else, but I digress) because I feel it's time people actually know the truth.
If you want to another truth - here's one:
Jamie is not required to carry the emergency beeper which all other pastors on staff carry in rotation each weekend (probably less than once a month based on the number of ministers on staff). When Jamie 1st arrived back at Bellevue, he was given a list of the weekend rotation and he told the secretary that he didn't to be on the rotation list. When the secretary said she had not authority to excuse him from this ministerial duty, he said he would go to Steve. So, apparantly Steve got his off the rotation list as Jamie has never carried the emergency beeper.
As for what he prays for and what gets portrayed to the congregation, as I said before the term "The Jamie Parker Show" came from the youth group. So those kids are discerning him to be a performer, not me.
karen
(continuing response from previous blog...)SeekingHisWill:
Thank you for the invitation. I'm a happy part of another church and have attended your services before. It seemed/seems like a Spirit filled church.
I am also grieved when any member of the Body of Christ suffers. Many have suffered here for a long time. Many who hold different positions suffer too. It is clear that neither side is convincing the other side of anything.
However, we do know God wants His children plugged in to a local church family. I'm not sure it's possible to live out the Christian Faith without living 'in community' with other believers.
From the outside looking in, this situation seems irreconcilable. The same points of criticism (with which I don't disagree) get made over and over and over. Nothing changes unless it's another allegation intended to do what? Surely no one believe Steve Gaines will resign because he misquoted an illustration? But by calling attention to it, the flames of conflict continue to flicker for another few days. Is that really what Christ would want? Is that the way Christ would want us to grieve?
If Steve Gaines turns out to be as bad as so many on this blog think (and he might), he'll eventually misstep badly enough to cause his own downfall. It won't take a minority saying, "I told you so"... and the whole church will rise up.
I realize that all things are possible with God's help but there is no conversation or dialogue on this blog that moves the discussion toward reconciliation. Hence, I'm left with the impression that this becomes a place for annonymous criticism against another part of the Body of Christ.
I'm not trying to take sides-I don't have a side. I'm just trying to suggest that God would have us move toward reconciliation. And when that doesn't happen-when faithful Christians disagree and there is no convincing the other side, that it might be time to think about reconnecting to another part of the Body of Christ where one can be fed and nurtured and equipped for service for the King.
It's very difficult to find a way to make this point without raising a combative spirit among the group which is not at all my intention.
I say these things with no malice intendend. It's just disheartening to see God's children struggle.
2:22 PM, May 10, 2007
bystander,
I have appreciated your sweet spirit today and the tender way in which you have stated your opinions. God bless you.
Not sure why there are so many errors in his illustration but as one who is trained and experienced in sermon preperation and delivery, that SEEMS to be some very shotty, lazy work. Errors and mistakes happen & are no big deal but if he said he was there but really just looked it up, not real ethical. It would be interesting to find out why the many discrepencies.
Now, before Steves followers blasts me....all I said that it SEEMED to be lazy and shotty. I am not accusing him of that. Only if he misrepresented himself it would be so.
Not too concerned about that right now.
Also, I didn't know that the term "Jamie Parker Show" was started by the youth. I feel cheated. This came to me last year while watching the show. I just felt that in my spirit. The choir at the time was almost non-existant. It was Jamie an about six other people with the very much smaller choir in the background.
I knew I should have had that phrase copywrited. : )
maybejustmaybe:
Thank you. It's not my intent to create more strife. I've simply 'studied' the dialogue of this blog for months and tried to fully understand the nature of the conflict...and to come to terms with the truth that is, in many ways, so self-evident.
And yet I've got to believe that if Jesus were 'blogging' in our midst, he would be moving us back toward one another-even in the midst of our disagreements-not away from each other.
It seems that things have moved so far that nothing will ever be able to heal the wounds-reconcile the relationships-of those who are so convinced of the rightness of their position and yet so frustrated that leadership seems to turn a deaf ear.
I wonder, I just wonder, what sort of private admonition Steve Gaines may have received/endured from those who are thought to be his 'cronies'. There is no way for any of us to know. Maybe none, it's pure speculation on our parts. God knows. And surely justice will prevail. Maybe not in our lifetime but read the end of the book. Jesus wins in the end. (smile) God will prevail-a point on which we surely all agree.
I'm not trying to 'make light' of such a serious series of misunderstandings and blunders. I'm just trying to bring some since of reality (what are the obvious options now?) and civility and love and humility and justice...to what has become a very messy set of circumstances.
I keep asking myself, what would Christ do? What would Christ do?
Just curious everyone: Who here thinks Jesus said/did any of the following things with a "quiet" and "sweet spirit" of "reconciliation?"
Matthew 11:20
Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent.
Luke 13:3
No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Rev 2:5
Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.
Rev 2:16
Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth.
Matthew 23:15
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
What's wrong with a little righteous indignation?
bystander, I can see where you have some legitimate concerns for some bloggers.
The problems represented by Bellevue are indicative of a larger sickness in the American church, in my opinion. (And I use the word "church" loosely, because I believe there are many in "the church" in America who are not born again.)
There is no reconciliation with brothers and sisters in unrepentant sin.
And... where do we get the idea that as a Christian, we won't struggle? or have problems? or conflicts? or disagreements?
But are we not to be ministers of reconciliation? Not just to our brethren but to the lost?
I'm assuming that question is directed to me, mjm?
There is absolutely a time for reconciliation, but not without repentance, and that counts for both the saved and the lost.
"I keep asking myself, what would Christ do? What would Christ do?"
Read Matthew, 1 Corinithians, Ephesians, Titus, Timothy and Jude. Then you would know.
"mom4 said,
By the same Word, the Lord will determine if Steve Gaines is turned over for the destruction of the flesh according to scripture, the consequence for an unrepentant heart. "
Mom, You must be referring to this scripture:
Jude 4
3Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. 4For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
If you exposit this teaching, it is quite shocking. God allows false teachers and we are warned. They crept in...means they were among us all the time and we did not realize it and their false teaching is not all that obvious so we MUST know scripture.
Don't be fooled by the term 'sensuality' because it can refer to emotions, license as far as behavior goes, dumbing down sin, etc. But the full meaning of this verse is quite clear with all the false teaching we are seeing in churches these days. We are to warn and beware but to do that, we must know scripture in context.
3:25 PM, May 10, 2007
Nass, you have mail.
preacherdude777 said...
Also, I didn't know that the term "Jamie Parker Show" was started by the youth. I feel cheated. This came to me last year while watching the show. I just felt that in my spirit. The choir at the time was almost non-existant. It was Jamie an about six other people with the very much smaller choir in the background.
I knew I should have had that phrase copywrited. : )
Hey, God is an equal opportunity God. He could have revealed it to you too! I'm just saying that term wasn't coined on the blog - it was 1st heard being said by the kids.
bystander said:
....have attended your services before. It seemed/seems like a Spirit filled church.
reply: Seemed? If the Spirit was there, you would know...or should know.
bystander said:
Surely no one believe Steve Gaines will resin because he misquoted an illustration? But by calling attention to it, the flames of conflict continue to flicker for another few days. Is that really what Christ would have? Is that the way Christ would want us to grieve?
Reply: No one has even hinted that Steve should resign because he made a mistake on his illustration. But he should expect, as any preacher, that the members should research the message themselves. Don't just take the preachers word for it...study and research. Any man of God would encourage his listeners to do that.
bystander said: If Steve Gaines turns out to be so bad as so many on this blog think,(and he might) he'll eventually misstep badly enough to cause his own downfall. It won't take the minority saying "I told you so...and the whole church will rise up."
reply : How badly does a man have to misstep? Don't be fooled in to believing that his followers will do anything to remove him no matter what he does. That's what shallow, blind, immature christians don't do. This is proven by how they have taken a "victim" position. The "minority" is attacking our Pastor & we must protect him. Facts (and scripture) are thrown out & a defensive mode is in place. Oh poor us, we are being attacked. Baloney! Remember Jimmy Swaggert? He still pastors his church eventhough he has disqualified himself from ministry. There are plenty other examples of this.
You are greatly mistaken if you think we ( at least me) are taken pleasure at all this sin and arrogance that is going on. I am grieved. You say we should move on...why??? BBC and mostly God's Word is worth fighting for. Now isn't the time to simply quit and walk. There may come a time, but not now!
You come in under the flag of a concerned believer but you are asking us to surrender because this is what Christ would want. I disagree. You say that we are hurting the cause of Christ because of what we do. Please see what the "leadership" has done if you want to see real harm to the cause of Christ!
bystander says: Hence I'm left with the impression that his becomes a place for annonymous criticism against another part of the Body of Christ.
reply: maybe so...and you are guilty too.
bystander said: I'm just trying to suggest that God would have us move toward reconciliation.
Reply: we have tried that and still are trying that. The "leadership" will not do that.
So does that mean we should take our toys and go move on? At some point, probably but until God tells us to move on, we must continue to fight for what is RIGHT. Not for what is easy or convienent.
bystander, I do believe that scripture backs up the position we hold. Standing for God's Word, holding the Pastor and staff to a standard, God's standard. I don't believe, at least for me, that we want a carbon copy of Dr. Rogers. We just want a holy, godly man who preaches the Word of God with humility, & yet with power of the Holy Spirit.
It was mentioned in the old post that we forgot that Dr. Rogers picked Steve to be his personal Pastor.
We haven't forgotten that eventhough Dr. Rogers just wanted him, didn't pick him.
Second, Judas was Jesus' desciple and yet we know how that turned out.
This is just a personal opinion but I have wondered if God allowed Steve to come to bring to light sins, (his and all the staff, deacons ect.)I won't list them all here again because that has been done many times. I also wondered if God removed Dr. Rogers to spare him the pain of it all.
I gotta say it, preacherdude....
YOU ROCK!
karen
Preacherdude,
My son knew and liked JP when he was at BBC before. He came home from college for the weekend,
went to BBC a shortly after JP arrived.
When we got in the car to go home that Sunday he said...
When did the music become the JP show?!
He had talked to no one about this and I had not warned him because he was adjusting to school and still grieving for Bro R.
So several people and groups came up with this term not because they were trying to be ugly but because that's what it all looked like.
Lin and socwork....thanks again! The truth is the truth.
CONCERNING THE BLOG,
I believe the pain and grief and outrage from all that has happened at BBC in such a short time would have been unbearable for me without my "blog friends".
I know there have been times when it was difficult to read....MOSTLY because of the "plants" and trolls that come on here to hurt mock us.
There have been so many days of fellowship and encouragement and teaching. I am grateful for this forum.
We now have friends from all over...not just BBC or Memphis.....
Lin,Amos,Ima...just to mention a few.
We have Charlie and Concernedsbcer and others nearby.
It is very painful and sad to "just leave"
When I was told that the church was being cleansed....to my face....with no sensitivity of how hurtful that was...
I came to my blog friends and was comforted and encouraged...called one on the phone and cried.
If the bystander doesn't want to participate on this blog...OK,that's fine.
I thank all of you for caring for me thru my uncomfortable posts and for making me learn and laugh and think and keep moving when it was so difficult.
I would have been lost and even more alone if not for my sweet blog friends.
I don't agree with bystander when he/she said that , If Jesus was blogging here with us, He would move us closer together. how sweet that must sound to you but given the situation, I am not sure Jesus would do that. We are called to salt and light. We are the salt in would that Steve opened. It hurts, but soon, it will be healed. We are also trying to be the light eventhough the "leadership" trys to put our light out.
I am not sure what church you attend but I would hope you would have backbone to take a stand should this happen there.
You said that you ask yourself "what would Christ do, what would Christ do?
Why are you asking...READ THE SCRIPTURES. God's Word is quite plain about what has gone on and what our response should be.
please for give my misspellings...I am trying to do too much at one time and I don't catch all of them.
we forgive you preacherdude :)
and thanks for your kind words, gmommylv
preacherdude,
Keep preaching!
Ok, I have come to terms with the fact that the phrase, "the Jamie Parker Show" wasn't my original idea. Like I said it just came to me while watching the show. I must say that the show wasn't/isn't a very good show mind you, but a show none the less.
Sort of funny that the same phrase came to a few different people at about the same time.
In response to a couple of emails I've received today, I'm deleting my list about Jamie Parker. Not that I don't believe what I wrote, but I believe by leaving it up, it would sow a seed of bitterness against me and it just ain't worth it.
karen
Cakes!!!
Didn't mean to leave you out of my local friends I would not have without this blog!
Where in the world....except this blog...would I have ever met such a sweetheart like you!
Personal Opinion only!
While JP is talented, I haven't cared for him much...never have...don't know why...well, I do but won't say it here. Just personal preference.
I was hoping when Dr. Whitmire retired, not the way Steve retired him, but when God retired him, I always thought Ken Reich would be a good replacement. I don't really know him but the few times I seen him lead, I just really liked him.
Jon Tyner -not sure about this guy. Just something about him that unsettles me. Trying to be nice..probably shouldn't have said anything.
My vote would have been for Ken.
This is just my personal opinion. Whew...I feel better now that I got that off my chest. : )
preacherdude777 wrote:
"Ok, I have come to terms with the fact that the phrase, 'the Jamie Parker Show' wasn't my original idea."
I read it as early as October 6th in the comments here.
"Jamie Parker has turned the music ministry into a 'Jamie Parker and backup singers teethy grining performance'. Jamie comes across with an insincere 'it's all about me--the performer' persona."
By the way, you can still vote and comment in that poll.
gmommylv said, "Lin,Amos,Ima...just to mention a few.
We have Charlie and Concernedsbcer and others nearby"
How special these words are. When in a world such as ours encouragement such as yours is priceless. Nothing should ever become so important to any of us that we lose our focus...which should be to glorify God.
Ima
preacherdude,
Jon Tyner is the real deal, dude!
karen
Jamie Parker reminds me of a used car salesman.....except a used car salesman is more honest.
I just came over from Bratton's--he's auditioning for "Showboat." Seriously!
BWAHAHAHA HAW!
I haven't been around JP since he went to Gardendale.
Before then, I can't say I ever saw him as dishonest.
JP was spiritually and otherwise immature and in my opinion, based on some youth activities,
he was not qualified to be the youth music minister.
What's funny about the car salesman thing is that a music teacher who used to go to BBC said the same thing about him to me just recently....go figure....
Cakes..
I never get jokes.....
now I have to call someone to see what you mean about Showboat!
Showboat is a musical - Mike is a talented actor, performer and voice over guy. So be nice! :)
karen
When I think of Mike, though, I see him as a French Chef yelling at my son in a production of the SCT!
Karen said...
By the way all y'all,
My daddy is having knee replacement surgery on July 19th. Start praying now - he's old! :)
Reply:
Define OLD!!!
Yelling like really yelling or yelling as part of the act?
karen
Charlie,
He's 70 and he's knees are about 85!
OK Karen...
I don't get jokes....
but I am not stupid! I know Showboat is a musical.....
I just thought I was missing a joke.
I didn't know MB was a musician....should I have known that????
And now that I do....I snicker with Cakes....
Karen said...
Charlie,
He's 70 and he's knees are about 85!
REPLY:
No comment. I have a friend who had a knee replaced on Monday, a couple of weeks ago, and was at church 13 days later.
Since we are on the subject of Jamie Parker, let me share my experience with Jamie at GFBC. SG instigated a move to get rid of Bruce Hill, our beloved Minister of Music, because SG "wanted to take the choir to the next level". This was done in preparation to bring Jamie to GFBC. Bruce Hill was demoted and put under a 'media minister' all as part of a farce to get rid of Bruce which was ultimately successful.
Well needless to say, Jamie did take our choir to 'the next level' which was DOWN! I remember the very first choir practice that he led after he had been there several weeks and I was shocked at how woefully unprepared he was. He even said:"This is the first time I have looked at this music."
Most of the choir songs we sang while Jamie was there were songs we had learned under Bruce Hill.
Jamie does have a beautiful tenor voice and maybe he should seriously consider launching his own singing career and not try to be a Minister of Music. (Maybe TBN could sponsor the Jamie Parker Show?)
We at GFBC had been told how great a Youth Choir Director he had been at Bellevue but when he got to GFBC, he didn't do squat with the Youth Choir.
We were very disappointed in him.
Bent: I'm sorry. :(
You guys had it rough too, didn't you?
How are things now that they are gone?
hey! look at this....a troll gunning for me! Now I feel special :).
And FYI, I used to go by Koragg on here, but my password wouldn't work so I had to set up another account with Google!. Koragg the Brave is a troll.
lynn wrote:
"Koragg the Brave is a troll."
Yeah, it's our old troll friend, "arminius," aka "john mark," "jd," et al. Just ignore it.
bent but not broken,
I'm not surprised about JP being unprepared.
DP used to say that many times when they were doing a wedding,the first time they went over the music was on the way there.
When SG and JP were at GFBC...did the church go thru the same things we have???
Talking about discernment, my family and I started calling the music at BBC "The Jamie Parker Show" about the third week he came back from GFBC.
Trying to digest "Running to Win or Running from the Truth?" Brought back memories of SG claiming "uncharted waters," concerning PW??????? After twenty years in the minstery, smells fishy.
concerned, gmommy,
My daughter was in the youth choir under JP and constantly complained about his quest to be "front and center" of everything. The kids called him "showtune", because he was always pushing the same old song and dance. Many of the kids were glad to see him go when he left for GFBC.
When she came home from college out of state, after the firing of JW and the JP takeover, she attended her first Sun morn in quite a while. Being a wise young lady, I felt it best to let her absorb the situation and give her time to reflect before asking her what she thought (I told her nothing in advance about the treatment of JW or anything else going on). She nailed it all!! She said the music was "highschoolish" and the sermon was shallow even though he (SG) was a very good speaker, there was no meat. She missed the nourishment she was used to from Dr Rogers. Before the anti-truth crown attacks, let me share that the time she has spent away in college has been spent in various churches, visiting several before finding the one the Lord had planned for her to attend. She is well grounded in scripture and needed no prodding from her parents to come to the same conclusion that any discerning believer would inevitably arrive if they knew scripture in context and separated the truth from the lies in what they are fed. I am proud to have a wise daughter.
BTW, We always called JP the "cruise director". He would be great at it!!
Shortly after the business meeting that was shut down inappropriately,
DC promised to set up a series of meetings.
The meetings were to involve a small group of deacons and laymen along with himself,SG,and other members of leadership.
The first meeting has yet to be scheduled in spite of repeated requests to the leadership.
Only time for a bit of history.
Last September I was at BBC during the day and had stopped to visit with one of the security men. While we were talking a female staff member came by and joined our non serious fast moving conversation. I do not remember how this fit into what we were discussing but she turned to me and asked, "Have you seen the lights?" I had to ask several times what she meant and then laughingly she said, "Why, the lights for the 'Jamie' show". My mouth dropped, (I think) and asked WHO calls it that? Her response was, "all the staff....everyone thinks it's so funny". My countenance announced to her that I was not laughing and just happened to be prepared to give a Biblical answer why "it" was not funny. She received my words very well and showed genuine interest in thinking this "issue" through so I gave her some information to read which I believed would shed some Biblical light of truth on the non humorous aspects of what was being called the "Jamie Show".
Just for the record, I find no fault in a man or woman being who they are. I do however find fault in either for trying to be someone they are not. In my humble opinion, Jamie Parker is being who he is and wants desperately to be less of himself and more like Jesus. But let us remember, immaturity always has its consequences. Like the rest of us, Mr. Parker will spend the rest of his God given life maturing and having to cope with his own personnel set of circumstances and consequences. Along that path, God will attend to Jamie's determination to follow and obey Jesus and in the process mature him. Since Jamie will never become someone else we sin when we mock or criticize him for who he is. When we are offended by something he does this is the time for a personal one-on-one, PRIVATE conversation with him with the motivation to build up and edify while notifying him of your concern.
"No ones ignorance gives anyone else permission to behave ignorantly toward them." I said that.
Proverbs 3:5, 6
Padroc
bystander said
If Steve Gaines turns out to be as bad as so many on this blog think (and he might), he'll eventually misstep badly enough to cause his own downfall. It won't take a minority saying, "I told you so"... and the whole church will rise up.
Piglet says:
So we ARE rising up! Do we have to wait for everyone in the church to get a clue? Gaines was unfit for the piulpit BEFORE the pedophile incident AND the bogus meeting.
At this point I don't think ANYTHING will cause the masses to "rise up". The masses are blind or lukewarm.
Okay, I can't resist it anymore-
When I was in the 9th or 10th grade (so approx. 12 or 13 years ago) we used to call Celebrate America "The Jamie Parker Show". It wasn't even really meant to be derogatory, everyone in the youth just knew it by that phrase. Jamie is who he is.
It may even predate that, but it is certainly nothing new.
seekinghiswill
You sound like you are unaware that Dr. Rogers' family has been attending another church. So why would they do this if Dr. Rogers had chosen Steve Gaines and they were happy with his choice?
Doesn't add up.
NBBCOF said
ALF reruns are on? What channel?
12:11 AM, May 10, 2007
Piglet says:
Just now catching up. We have seasons 1 thru 4 on DVD. Sorry, guess those are not technically "reruns". We were big fans before the kids came along and now they like him, too. You can borrow them from us - they're a hoot!
SHW said
If David Brown could have, he would have had charges brought against the man who you and some of your buddies are out to destroy.
Piglet says:
The son would have had to press charges against his dad for that to happen and he only wanted his dad OUT OF THE MINISTRY.
Lucky for Steve.
Piglet,
We have ALF everything. Towels, big stuffed ones, little plastic ones.... and the same DVD set.
More popcorn please!
Is there a 12 step for ALFism?
Padroc
witq,
You were asked two simple questions last night. Please answer or leave.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
WTQ,
What difference would it make if at one time SG was AR's choice?
It would not change the fact that SG has disqualified himself many times over by his own disobedience of scripture and lack of character.
Not to mention his total absense of class.
Is it just me or does anyone else think we would have been in much better shape if Ken Whitten would have replaced Dr. Rogers instead of Steve Gaines? He was the person I wanted even when people were high on Steve Gaines. Just a thought...........
WITQ,
To those that only come to TROLL and do the things described, please go somewhere else.
Reply: Take your own advice. See ya!
Wtq, even if Steve Gaines was Dr. Rogers choice doesnt everyone make mistakes. He obviously could not have seen the future and if he would have know what was going to happen I am sure Dr. Rogers wouldnt have been so high on him. Just ask the rest of the Rogers family............I am sure they could give you some insight! You people are simply amazing..........you act like Steve can do no wrong!
Maybe without PW in charge of prayer for the pulpit committee
AND maybe had the pulpit committee done a basic background check on SG,
Maybe the results would have been better.
Today,would the church allow the same people on the same committees?
Would all assume that since Ken Whitten was under AR,no questions should be asked?
Would Ken Whitten require more salary than AR made?
Padroc
My husband and I had the talking ALF doll but we don't have it anymore......
It's hard to find good clean comedy anymore.
I'm currently collecting the "I Love Lucy" series.
WITQ,
There are those who have "Leaving on their mind". Your maturity, illustrated by your patience will allow you to view with reverence the continuation of the exodus by the "troublemakers" when this school year is over and certain leadership commitments have been completed.
My humble opinion is that God had better use for His mature children in the faith, in other churches. BBC will essentially "start over"
Padroc
Why,
we will all be gone eventually.
Then you can play god with all the missions money with no more questions!
In case you weren't sharp enough to pick up on WHY the motion was made to give money from BBC to Mid America...
maybe it was to show some of the non sleeping that the undesignated or reserve money in the budget has gone down quite a bit since last year....
but SG and leadership aren't accountable to anyone....right.....
everyneedschrist
I think MANY people would have liked to see Ken Whitten come to BBC. I was one. However, I was really completely open to whatever God had in mind.
I believe God has allowed things to be revealed in Steve's character and in our leadership's character that needed to come out. It has been painful and I, for one, have felt betrayed.
I know Ken would have loved us, had great respect for Jim Whitmire and the legacy of Dr. Rogers. He wouldn't have strutted in trying to fix things that weren't broke.
Ken is not an arrogant man. Things would have been different, but God allowed this to happen and there must be a reason.
Of course, we know that does not release us from any responsiility we have to stand for what is right.
Good night, blog friends.
'Night, piglet... and Gordon... wherever you are.
Bassman, you ask some good questions. I have the upmost respect for Ken Whitten and think things would have been much different under him. He is a very humble man and truely loved Dr. Rogers. In fact at Dr. Rogers funeral service he even started to break down a little while speaking. I have to admit I was disappointed when Ken wasn't chosen. However, I never prejudged Steve whatsover but have simply observed what he has done over time while at Bellevue. I just hope that Steve will leave soon and Ken would come back and bring the church back together!
Gordon is in the garage working on the space contraption. Really! I just saw him... I think Dr. Bill Looney was supposed to drop in for some chicken feet salad or whatever.
By the way anyone seen the cat?
ALLLLF!
Good grief,
Good night
Regarding the subject of this thread, and learning from someone who attended, that SG and JP sang Elvis songs at church Tues. night,
my husband's comment: "He is a double-minded man." "A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways" (James 1:8). I don't know his heart nor do I know JP's. "Man looks on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart" (I Samuel 16:7). However, God never asks us to "check our brains in at the door" - A. Rogers. "As a man
thinketh in his heart so is he"
(Proverbs 23:7). Outward actions reveal heart attitudes. Spiritual leaders are held to a much higher accountability by a HOLY God because their actions/attitudes affect and influence those whom they are shepherding. They are to hold to a higher standard that they may be "examples unto the believers" (I Tim. 4:12). We do not expect perfection but we do expect integrity. Dr. R was not a perfect man but he was a man of integrity and he loved the flock he shepherded. The flock needs to know it is loved, cared for and protected. The Good Shepherd loves and protects and cares for His sheep; He expects the same of His under-shepherds.
Also, please remember - the church is NOT in the entertainment business. Worship services are NOT
to be performances to entertain an audience. Worship services are to
glorify HOLY God, edify the saints, and call the lost to "Come to Jesus." Read Lev.10:1,2 to see what God thinks about false worship. Question: If God is pleased and blessing the new form of worship we have now, why all the empty seats?
bassman,
Have any of the "Meetings" been scheculed? Cancelled? or are they avoiding contact with the group of deacons and laymen who were to meet with them?
Karen said...
preacherdude,
Jon Tyner is the real deal, dude!
Karen..cool your jets.
I didn't say Jon Tyner wasn't the real deal nor did I say that he did something wrong. I said that there is something about him that unsettles me.
Like anyone, I don't have to like someone just because he is the "real deal". Actually, I didn't say I didn't like him. He just don't do anything for me.
So chill out, dude-ette
To address the opening of this thread, and I was not there that Sunday he spoke of this due to it being my turn to stay home with a sick child, but race results are often posted unofficially for a time, and depending on many people ran that race, it can usually take a day or two before the official results are determined.
JMHO
Memphis
" that SG and JP sang Elvis songs at church Tues. night"
Well I am a big Elvis fan, and have his Gospel CDs in my vehicle as I type this. Great music to ride out the 240/Poplar/Germantown traffic. Whne he sings "How Great Thou Art", takes me to another place personally!
Thank ya, Thank ya very much,
Memphis
I think the reason why is the question is taking up for Steve is, and I believe I have my facts about him correct based on what I have read here, he is a washed up pentecostal preacher and he doesn't want Steve to go through what he did...I am guessing.
If you read what he has to say about things, he doesn't make much sense. He reads stuff on the internet and then acts like he is knowledgable about something. But his comments are so incoherent, it shows he doesn't know what he is talking about.
He reminds me of the two old men in the balcony on the Muppet Show. They would watch the show, the make silly remarks about it. Like he does here.
WITQ, are you a muppet? OR, Steve's puppet? He has a few, ya know. Some staff & the deacons and some committee members are puppets, don't ya know.
Sg and JP could learn a lesson from John the Baptist. " I must decrease and Jesus must increase."
They are both arrogant and do not
have a humble bone in their bodies.
JMHO
Memphis,
Nice try to stick up for your hero, but this doesn't work either. There are people on this blog who know the winner of last year's wheelchair race personally, and he was in 5th or 6th place this year. Hardly to be mistaken for first and caught up in any "unofficial results" that the Pastor didn't get updated in time for his sermon.
Plus, how clueless do you think we are? Unoffical results that "may have changed" in a foot race where the winner was so far ahead of the second place he "looked behind him and saw no one there?"
If "unofficial results" had been published and then "official results" completely changed winners and loosers, it would have been front page news from here to Knoxville with "I was there and I saw..." accounts and all kind of manufactured drama.
Plus, wouldn't you think it was quite the coincidence that the "unofficial results" where exactly the same as last years "official results"?
No, this was the pastor taking last year's race and misrepresenting it as this years.
He commonly misrepresents facts, in his sermons. You can make it a game to "find the error" when he preaches. You don't need a Phd in theology to find them.
I've known at least one man who went up to him and pointed out how he contradicted himself from one sermon to another, and the Pastor's response was "so what? Maybe you should go worship somewhere else" (that man did by the way).
If any of you think the Pastor is going to listen to honest concerns about spiritual or other issues, you are kidding yourself. The people around him tell him that he is the "Greatest Pastor in America", and he believes it.
I think the day is almost here that those with spiritual discernment need to go elsewhere. However, the "shaking the dust" ceremony's is a bit meladramatic in my opinion.
"that SG and JP sang Elvis songs at church Tues. night"
One would have to ask what songs? Reason being, if it was for instance 'How Great Thou Art' or one of the others similar to it...I wouldn't see anything wrong with that. However, if they were belting our 'Don't Be Cruel' or maybe 'Jailhouse Rock', I can see where there would be a problem.
There are out there today many churches whose pastors are dressing up like Elvis...the old Elvis personator routines...and belting out the best they can some of his songs. They are also using the 'moves' made so popular by Elvis. There is definitely no place for the likes of this in the church. Yesterday I ran across a picture of a 'pastor' atop an elephant...yes, I said elephant...somewhere in Florida I think it was...and he was delivering his sermon as the circus parade moved on down the street. Oh, almost forgot...he was dressed up like a clown. No, he was a clown. :) Folks...where they are taking their 'churches' these days is sick. They are not churches...these people are mocking God. It is that simple.
Ima
Not that it matters, but "How Great Thou Art" is not an Elvis song. Neither is "Amazing Grace" or "Dixie", just because he sang them.
memphis wrote:
"To address the opening of this thread, and I was not there that Sunday he spoke of this due to it being my turn to stay home with a sick child, but race results are often posted unofficially for a time, and depending on many people ran that race, it can usually take a day or two before the official results are determined."
Well, that would be interesting since last year's men's marathon winner, Feyisa Tusse, wasn't even in the race this year.
This information, all direct quotes from the 4/29/07 sermon, came directly from the 2006 CMM website:
"I went yesterday to the 7th Annual Country Music Marathon... "
It was the 8th annual event.
"I just watched 22,000 participants... "
This year there were nearly 30,000 participants.
"The event in Nashville raised over two million dollars for the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society."
That was last year's figure. With over 1/3 more participants than last year, this year's event will probably end up raising more than that.
"The two winners in yesterday's race in Nashville, one was a man from Ethiopia, the male winner was Feyisa Tusse. He ran that course, 26.2 miles, in 2 hours, 15 minutes, and 6 seconds."
This was last year's winner and his time.
"There was only one of them out of the top ten from America. The rest of them were from Ethiopia, Kenya, or Columbia... "
None of this year's top ten were from America. At least one was from Russia.
"The lady that won it was from Russia. She won it, uh, in two hours and 36 minutes, and the wheelchair winner was from Germantown, Tennessee. His name's John Payne. He did it... in three hours, 21 seconds, and uh... there they are... there they are right there... right there. (Photos appear on IMAG.) But that's who won, right there on the right (referring to the women's winner), all right?"
They won in 2006.
"The two winners yesterday, male and female, they won... they had their choice, either a... either a check of $17,500 for winning that marathon or a Nissan car."
No Nissans were awarded to the winners this year, just cash.
But perhaps the most telling of all the quotes was this:
"I got so excited looking over this this morning."
Makes me think that might have been the first time he looked over it.
From the above-mentioned sermon came this excerpt:
"Saul tried to put his armor on David. Saul was about a 60 extra long. David was a 24 junior petite, all right? Now if you didn't catch that we'll talk to you after the service, okay?
"Can you see David walking around in that great big suit? It probably was a little bit on the funny side."
The memory of what he did to Mark Dougharty during his sermon the first Sunday evening in January came flooding back to me.
About halfway through his sermon, SG walked down to the floor and called Mark Dougharty out of the audience. He was telling the story about when Jesus cast the demons out of the man and they went into the herd of swine that ran off the hill into the sea. He was telling how Jesus took his robe and put it on the man, and as he talked he pulled off his jacket and wrapped it around MD's shoulders, right on top of the jacket MD was already wearing. SG even joked, "I know this will fit you." Of course, it absolutely swallowed him. MD just stood there looking totally embarrassed and took it. (Poor thing reminded me of one of those poodles people dress up in those silly sweaters. All he needed was a little bow in his hair.)
As he stood there, blushing, with SG's huge jacket hanging to his knees, SG said, "I love this man! Don't you love Brother Mark Dougharty?" There was a little ripple of nervous applause through the congregation. This was not good-natured ribbing; it was public humiliation, and it almost made me feel sorry for both of them -- for different reasons.
Oh, my. The plot thickens. Still wiping the spit off my screen after this, another quote from the 4/29/07 sermon:
Interestingly, the male winner yesterday in Nashville almost quit the race. He was having stomach problems. I read a uh... excerpt from an interview he did with a reporter yesterday. He said, "After I passed the halfway point I was thinking I might quit. I tried my best but I had a severe pain in my stomach. But then I said, 'I'll keep trying.'" Did you hear that? "I'll keep trying."
Then he said, "I think I'll just win this race." Hmmm. Good idea. He said, "At 30 kilometers, nobody wanted to lead, so I decided to lead. Somebody's gotta lead. I might as well. By 40 kilometers I was thinking, 'I'm the winner.'"
Now, read this. Uh... note the name of the interviewee and date of the interview.
finance guy wrote:
"Not that it matters, but 'How Great Thou Art' is not an Elvis song. Neither is 'Amazing Grace' or 'Dixie', just because he sang them."
So true, finance guy, so true. But you've got to admit, he did sing them well, didn't he?
NASS,
Can you say "copyright infringement"!
Cool Running Terms and Conditions:
1 The contents of the Service are intended for your personal, noncommercial use. All materials published on Cool Running (including, but not limited to news articles, photographs, images, illustrations, audio clips and video clips, also known as the "Content") are protected by copyright, trademarks, trade secrets, patents or other proprietary rights and protected in all forms, media and technologies now or hereinafter developed. The Content is owned or controlled by and shall remain the property of Cool Running or the party credited as the provider of the Content. You shall abide by all additional copyright notices, information or restrictions contained in any Content accessed through the Service.
2.2 The Service and its Contents are protected by copyright pursuant to US and international copyright laws. You may not modify, publish, transmit, participate in the transfer or sale of, reproduce (except as provided in Section 2.3 of this Agreement), create new works from, distribute, perform, display or in any way exploit any of the Content or the Service (including software) in whole or in part.
2.3 You may download or copy the Content and other downloadable items displayed on the Service for personal use only, provided that you maintain all copyright and other notices contained therein. Copying or storing of any Content for other than personal use is expressly prohibited without prior written permission from Cool Sports, Inc., or the copyright holder identified in the copyright notice contained in the Content.
2.4 You, not Cool Sports, Inc., or the party credited as the provider of the content, are liable for any damage resulting from any infringement of copyrights, proprietary rights or any other harm arising from your failure to abide by the provisions of this Section 2.
I wonder how they feel about having their work product used by someone who will scream "copyright infringement" about the very message he stole from them.
mom4,
The quote from the interview that he used was here, the same place the rest of the information came from. Don't know who actually did the interview or if any copyright infringement occurred.
NASS, I did read all of that article and it is the work product of "Cool Running". They do have published copyright information on their website. Regardless of who did the interview, it is published under specific copyright laws as noted on the website. He would have HAD to acknowledged that in his sermon to abide by the law.
Finance Guy...My apologies to Bill Gaither, Mike Stoller, Jerry Leiber. I surely didn't mean to imply Elvis wrote these songs. My mistake.
I just want to clarify:
Steve Gaines CLAIMED to have been in Nashville at the Country Music Marathon recently ( 07 ) which he very well may have been.
However, in order to ' enhance ' his sermon he plagerized articles from the 2006 Country Music Marathon.
Why would he do that? Were there no 2007 news articles out yet about it? That doesn't seem likely..I mean, if he's going to plagerize, why not plagerize something more RECENT?
COULD IT BE that he felt like he might not get caught if the news article was from 06? ( HEY, STEVE, ever heard of GOOGLE???)
WHY would he do this? It doesn't even make sense..It APPEARS that he was just a sloppy plagerizer, OR
the 06 story fit his sermon that he wanted to give a bit better? BUT why not just SAY it was the 06 winner?
Would someone please help me to understand this better.
It just doesn't make sense to me.
At this point, it seems he climbed a tree to tell a lie when he could have stood on the ground and told the truth.
bassman said:
The first meeting has yet to be scheduled in spite of repeated requests to the leadership.
10:53 PM, May 10, 2007
Bassman,
What was expected to be gained from this meeting? Have they not already lost all credibility?
Even IF they had met with ya'll, it wouldn't mean anything because they say one thing and do another.
So I am left wondering, why ask for the meeting in the first place?
sotl,
Sick people make no sense.
You and I know this too well.
The more people like Gaines get away with...the more bold they become.
SOTL, MOM4,
Some were hoping these meetings with DC and SG would lead towards healing and eventually reconcilliation.
But like the business meeting that they inappropriately shut down, this promise by DC proved to be another stall and control tactic by leadership.
It is all about AFFLICTION.
Steve Gaines may be the best thing BBC has ever seen...Truly sent by GOD.
Maybe, just maybe, we got relaxed and complacent when Dr Rogers told us all about the love, mercy and grace available to us. Maybe we needed a firmer, more personal prompt from God himself to drive us back to Him and the WORD. Maybe we were too stiff necked to respond to Dr. Rogers gentle urging and fatherly love pointing us to the WORD.
Why are we afflicted? So we will never forget GOD.
Deut 16:3 Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, [even] the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.
And for all you NT guys that say the OT is past...The WORD says there will be affliction.
Mark 13:19 For [in] those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
NOTICE HOW IMPORTANT THE WORD IS
Psalms 119:50 This [is] my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.
119:92 Unless thy law [had been] my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.
119:153 Consider mine affliction, and deliver me: for I do not forget thy law.154 Plead my cause, and deliver me: quicken me according to thy word. 155 Salvation [is] far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.
Again, I must ask. Why are we afflicted?
Isaiah 48:4 Because I knew that thou [art] obstinate, and thy neck [is] an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;
48:5 I have even from the beginning declared [it] to thee; before it came to pass I shewed [it] thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.
48:6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare [it]? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.
48:7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.
48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time [that] thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
48:9 For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.
48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
48:11 For mine own sake, [even] for mine own sake, will I do [it]: for how should [my name] be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
PRAISE BE TO GOD ALMIGHTY THAT YOU LOVE US ENOUGH TO AFFLICT US AND TURN US BACK TO YOU!!!! AMEN
Thank you Steve Gaines for being so arrogant, and so inaccurate and skewing scripture so much that you have driven us back to the WORD!
Gen 41:52
Deut 16:3
1 KIngs 22:27
Ps 22:23-31,119:50,92,153
Isaiah 30:20,48:10,63:9-10
Jer 16:19,30:15
Lam 3:1,19
Mark 13:19
2 Cor 4:17,6:4
Heb 10:32-33
1 Peter 5:9-10
bassman said...
Some were hoping these meetings with DC and SG would lead towards healing and eventually reconcilliation.
But like the business meeting that they inappropriately shut down, this promise by DC proved to be another stall and control tactic by leadership.
Precisely so. A meeting for true reconcilliation would have to have non-negotiables, chief among them the immediate removal of Steve Gaines from the pastorate. He has thoroughly trashed his integrity and Bellevue's in the process. We are the laughing stock of the community and the SBC.
"laughingstock"?
That is what HE did to Israel and Jerusalem.....is HE using SG to do it to BBC?
Search "hissing" or "astonishment"
in www.biblegateway.com or
www.godrules.net
I just watched enough of the sermon 4/29/07 to be sure Steve Gaines was actually using the the winners from 2006 and saying they were the winners of the 2007 race that he saw the day before. He was!
UNBELIEVABLE, JUST UNBELIEVABLE!!
How can he continue to stand in the pulpit of Bellevue Baptist Church and LIE like that? These are verifable facts, no way around it, what is he thinking, what is his wife thinking?
Is he begging to be caught or is he just shaking his fist in the face of GOD.
Deacons and leaders, can't you do something about this man. He is mocking GOD and mocking our church, he is on a self-destruct path and taking Bellevue with him.
He is running faithful members off in droves..WAKE UP AND LOOK AT THE EMPTY SEATS..BELLEVUE IS SINKING
all2jesus wrote:
"If Gaines was actually in Nashville for this event, wouldn't his memory serve to keep the facts in check?"
One would think so, but I have no reason not to believe he was being truthful when he said he was there. His daughter finished 7363rd overall (out of 19,418 finishers) in the 1/2 marathon (3338th among the 12,222 females who finished and 725th in her age class) which is very good. I congratulate her on her performance! Running 13+ miles is no small feat.
With some 30,000 people in the race, I doubt he would have seen the winners at the finish line, so I wouldn't fault him for that, but to pass off as fact last year's winners as this year's could, at the very least, be described as "sloppy research" on someone's part. Not to mention all the other "facts" that were last year's facts. Absolutely nothing else he mentioned besides being there, from the winners to the number of participants to the prizes to the interview with the men's winner had to do with this year's race.
About halfway through his sermon, SG walked down to the floor and called Mark Dougharty out of the audience. He was telling the story about when Jesus cast the demons out of the man and they went into the herd of swine that ran off the hill into the sea. He was telling how Jesus took his robe and put it on the man,
Did he state this as fact or as a possibility? It is one thing to "wonder" if Jesus gave him his own coat, but if he stated it as fact he is just making stuff up. I went back and re-read the accounts to make sure I had not overlooked this. Please check me and correct me if I missed it. All I see the accounts saying is the man was clothed. No mention of where or who the clothes came from. Not good to make stuff up and state it as fact. Not good at all. That kind of stuff really bothers me.
Matt 8
Mark 5
Luke 8
I can see your point about the marathon winners. Very sloppy stuff. But adding to scripture is a far more bothersome thing IMHO.
New BBC Open Forum said...
... I have no reason not to believe he was being truthful when he said he was there. His daughter finished 7363rd overall (out of 19,418 finishers) in the 1/2 marathon....
I stand corrected. My post implied he probably wasn't even there and is forthwith deleted.
The finish lines for the full and half-marathons in Nashville are a couple of thousand yards apart.
Since Lindsey finished about the time the full marathon winners were finishing, SG would have been at that finish line. He could not have seen who the winner was.
Me and my wife have run in several marathons, and we honestly couldn't tell you who any of the winners were. That's not the point of participating in a marathon.
It was hurried, last-minute research that led to the mistake. I knew he made a blunder when he said the winner finished in 2 hours and 15 seconds during the 11:00 service. (The world record is around 2:05.)
I don't believe this is an accurate measure of SG's spiritual condition. It just shows that he doesn't surf the net very well.
IMO
Keith,
"I don't believe this is an accurate measure of SG's spiritual condition. It just shows that he doesn't surf the net very well."
Ahem, copyright infringement and plagiarism are illegal acts, something he gets away with regularly it seems. It is a little deeper than sloppy work.
Besides, even if it was sloppy work on his part, would you want to pay an employee 350K per year plus perks to put out that kind of work. Not to mention what kind of example this is setting for our youth.
I have a friend who reused some of her own work for her thesis and it was thrown out as plagiarism and it cost her an entire semester.
Sorry, this deception does not wash for any reason!
"Ahem, copyright infringement and plagiarism are illegal acts..."
Okay...somebody explain plagiarism to me. Pastors get behind the podium Sunday after Sunday after Sunday and preach, or read, another pastor's sermon. My former read it. Word for word for word. Anybody could have done it. I never knew who exactly he was reading from, thusly not knowing who exactly was preaching to me each Sunday. It really bothered me. As against PD/CGM as I am...sometimes it was really hard for me. Here is my question...if a pastor 'purchases' these sermons from a source who regularly sells them (such as Saddleback to name one) is it legal or illegal? I would have to think it would be legal under these circumstances. BUT...does that make it right? It just seems to me that it is STEALING. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that a man is called to read SOMEBODY ELSES sermons. Right? Help me out here. I really have a problem hearing a sermon delivered from my church, then flipping on the tv and hearing it two or three times more from other ministers. Shouldn't these guys at least tell whose sermon they are reading?
Ima
Ima,
In this day and age, ethics are situational it seems. Once upon a time, a pastor sought the face of God in prayer and Bible study to get his sermons. Nowadays, canned sermons are a dime a dozen. I believe that when someone releases a sermon for sale, he does so with copyrights in place, therefore it is his to sell legaly to whomever he pleases. Such is Saddleback.
If you remember the reason that BBC gave for joining Willowcreek was so that they could get the music without having to pay individual copyright fees (royalties) on each piece. Apparently Willowcreek had bought the rights to select misic pieces and owned them outright so it was their legal right to sell them as they saw fit. I am not a copyright lawyer, but have worked in music and the purchase and use of musical works in the past. The same with sermons, if you wrote a sermon - outline and all - and sold it online or in a book or whatever. You would need to obtain a copyright to prevent others from stealing your work or using it without your permission or paying you for it.
Plagiarism is using another's work and saying it is your own.
I believe both apply in this situation.
Am I missing something here? Plagiarism is a long way from using a quote, which is what Dr. Gaines said he was doing. It's not like the article provided the sermon.
Copyright law allows parts of a work to be quoted as long as the person doing so doesn't claim it as their own. Quoting without attribution in print is frowned upon, but let's cut some slack here -- should every preacher have to include a list of quote sources and copyright owners?
Plagiarism is the presentation of another's work as one's own, whether the work is copyrighted or not. I see no evidence of copyright violation or plagiarism.
The worst Gaines is guilty of here is shoddy research, or sloppy use of the material provided by his sermon writer. He probably called the guy and said "Hey, my daughter's running in a marathon in Nashville and I thought I'd do a one on running the Christian race. See what you can do with that." Along the way, he threw in a few stretchers and we have another classic case of Steve deviating from his notes.
imaresistor said: Somebody explain plagiarism to me.
Plagiarism for example when preaching, is using someone else's material, sermon, sermon outline, illustrations, ect. without giving credit.
A preacher should do a lot of reading. He should be a lifelong learner but he must note when he uses stuff that isn't his. Most preachers don't mind their sermons/outlines being use as long as they are given credit.
Preaching someone elses sermons, to me except on rare instances,is lazy, and is a dis-service to the congregation & the preacher.
A man of God should be striving to get a word from God for the people of God. Not some other word God gave to another man, verbatum.
Dr. Roger used to say, "If my bullets fit your gun, then shoot them". The sad part is, some preachers never "bought their own bullets".
Is it wrong to preach someone else's sermon/outline? No but give credit where credit is due.
I know as a preacher, I want a fresh word from God for His people. I might use things from other sources, with credit given, but I don't want to preached a warmed over message.
Mom4 said, "Plagiarism is using another's work and saying it is your own."
Reply: Thanks for your remarks Mom. My point is that using another's work and saying it is your own equals deceit...right? This coming from the pulpit would be...??? Lies? Sinful? Deceitful? Lightening bolt strike you dead? Not Biblical??? Blatantly dishonest??? Embarrassing when exposed??? Unjustified??? And more???
So...what has happened? Why are these guys doing this? What has happened to the ethics? I am so disgruntled by it!
Thanks Mom...
P.S. - buying a sermon from Rick Warren, to me, is wrong, wrong, wrong. Why sell something that was supposed to be from God? If you really cared for the preacher/church, you would give the sermon away.
preacherdude777,
Thanks. To be more explicit, what about a pastor that reads his sermons on a regular basis? To be explicit here, I mean ALWAYS. Just simply stands behind the podium and reads them.
Did anyone get the mailer canceling children's activities at Bellevue this summer?
When I read the mailer, I was stunned and then it dawned on me what someone on the inside told me several weeks ago must be true.
I was told that teachers are dropping like flies ( I didn't have to be told because I know firsthand what's happening). A lot of the folks who are showing up at church are just not interested in serving.
I was told that Steve Gaines wants to pay people to teach because he said "that's how they solved the problem at Gardendale".
Does anyone know if we are already paying people to teach in the childrens area.
I heard 1st Baptist of Dallas is paying Seminary prof's to come in and teach SS.
I must have missed something here because this is all new to me.
The next thing you know, we'll be paying people to be in the orchestra or sing.
solomon said...
The finish lines for the full and half-marathons in Nashville are a couple of thousand yards apart.
It took me about 5 minutes to walk from the finish line of the full marathon to the half-marathon finish. Since 'a couple of thousand yards' is over a mile, unless I walk a five minute mile I should have said 'a couple of thousand feet'
nathanb...
"The next thing you know, we'll be paying people to be in the orchestra or sing."
We already are.
all2jesus,
Please read my 11:46 post from this morning. I copied this directly from the Cool Running website. I may have misunderstood, but it seems to me that the entire article was copyrighted and any and all use outside of these particular terms and conditions is a violation. Like I said, I am not a copyright lawyer, or a lawyer at all, so I may be wrong. Perhaps there is a lawyer out there who would know? Anybody?
"As he stood there, blushing, with SG's huge jacket hanging to his knees, SG said, "I love this man! Don't you love Brother Mark Dougharty?" There was a little ripple of nervous applause through the congregation. This was not good-natured ribbing; it was public humiliation, and it almost made me feel sorry for both of them -- for different reasons. "
11:10 AM, May 11, 2007
Theatrics and embellishments. Not good qualities in a pastor. Probably served it's purpose, though. I am sure MD got the message loud and clear.
mom4,
Are you serious?
Why would we pay someone to sing or be in the orchestra?
imaresistor said:
Thanks. To be more explicit, what about a pastor that reads his sermons on a regular basis? To be explicit here, I mean ALWAYS. Just simply stands behind the podium and reads them.
Reply: Is the sermon he is reading his? If not, does he give credit to whosever sermon it is?
If it is his and he is just reading it, that is a style of preaching. If he is reading others sermon, which is what I think you are saying, then he must give credit but if I was the congregation, I would give him the boot. That is laziness and sin and he isn't a workman worthy of his hire. God calls men to preach His Word, not be a professional reader reading someone else's work.
May God deliver the people from this kind of "preacher" (or reader).
I know they were having to advertise for singers/actors for the MPP this year. I do not know if they did for the SCT. There are musicians that play on Sunday mornings that are paid. I think it is 2 or 3 guitars of some kind and perhaps another instrument, I don't really remember.
MOM4 said...
all2jesus,
Please read my 11:46 post from this morning. I copied this directly from the Cool Running website. I may have misunderstood, but it seems to me that the entire article was copyrighted and any and all use outside of these particular terms and conditions is a violation. Like I said, I am not a copyright lawyer, or a lawyer at all, so I may be wrong.
In copyright law, this falls pretty squarely under "fair use". You simply cannot prevent someone from reasonably quoting your work, whatever rights you claim. Bellevue has sought to do exactly that by claiming the services are copyrighted. They sought to have the "Didn't I tick you guys off?" video removed from YouTube with the same rationale. It doesn't wash there, and it doesn't wash to say an admitted quote is plagiarism or a violation of copyright.
I'm with you guys, but this dog won't hunt.
all2jesus,
Thanks for the input. I only read what is written on their website and that is what I based my understanding of the issue on. What small bit of copyright issues I have been involved in allowed me to have enough insight to know that there was something wrong. Perhaps it was the fact that he just misled the people again that sends up the red flags?
I guess you must be a lawyer. Thanks.
Bro Steve might have made the same innocent mistake that Charlie Fox made when he told us all that Ken Whitten is in the middle of a bldg program and his church is moving into a new facility this fall. I'm sure he found an old article about that on the Internet and thought it was current. Bro Steve went to Saturday's race and probably very quickly Saturday night or Sunday morning did some Internet research and found those articles/pictures and didn't realize they were a year old. Same mistake Charlie made but it was okay when Charlie did it.
I have to agree with all2Jesus...I don't think he plagerized because it was clear that he was quoting someone else.
HOWEVER, what hs IS guilty of is being sloppy and incompetent.
Nuthin new under the sun.
preacherdude777 said, "Reply: Is the sermon he is reading his? If not, does he give credit to whosever sermon it is?"
Reply: The sermons he is reading are not his own. He admitted this to one of the congregants recently. He gets them off the internet. No, he does not give credit to anybody. That is my point...I am so against these PD pastors, that I am almost paralyzed listening to anyone delivering somebody else's sermons! How am I to know who is actually preaching to me?
You are doing nothing more than validating my opinion preacherdude. I think this has to be the height of laziness and a mockery to God!
A professional reader...what a great way to put it! And he doesn't even read well...seriously. It is sad to think people will continue to sit in the congregation under him. I am not of those anymore. I am outta there.
Thanks dude...
Ima
ilovebbc (me too),
Charlie ain't paid 350K plus perks per year to provide fresh messages from the Word of God. I thought the man was "called" to preach the Word, not expound on his Saturday entertainment. Charlie made a mistake, Steve Gaines tried to pull the wool over our eyes - again.
umm, IloveBBC
Charlie isn't a preacher of a mega church.
Charlie isn't being paid $350K a year plus perks to get it right.
YOU ( and ' you people') are the ones that think that SG is ordained by God. If that's true, shouldn't he be getting his facts straight?
You can't have it both ways.
Charlie also will work on Wednesdays...at his home church. : )
ezekiel said...
"It is all about AFFLICTION.
Steve Gaines may be the best thing BBC has ever seen...Truly sent by GOD."
WHS said:
Could not this also be said for the pedophile?
eze said: "Again, I must ask. Why are we afflicted?"
Isaiah 48:4 Because I knew that thou [art] obstinate, and thy neck [is] an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;
Just a thought!
mom4
Great Minds Think Alike!!!
LOL
watching history...
SHUT UP!!!
It is NEVER a good thing when a child is molested or children are put in a position to BE molested!!
I think you are sick.
What's the difference between Charlie looking on the Internet about Idlewild Baptist moving into their new sanctuary, which they did last fall and thinking it was current and coming on this blog and reporting it as about to happen in 2007 and Bro Steve going to the race on Saturday, coming home and wondering who won, getting on the Internet, bringing up an article and not realizing it was a year old? Why is it a mistake when Charlie does it but "Steve pulling the wool over our eyes" when Bro Steve does it? For that matter, maybe he asked Linda Glance or someone else in the office to research that for him quickly on Saturday or Sunday and the mistake was theirs - not his. I guess what I really wonder is if before you all devoted a thread on this blog to this topic, if you called his office first to see what they said. I can assure you if my boss asked me to get on the Internet and make a Powerpoint slide from a picture of this year's Nashville marathon winners and I accidentally used last year's pictures, he would not have questioned me or known the difference. This could have been a simple mistake.
ilovebbc (me too),
Charlie ain't paid 350K plus perks per year to provide fresh messages from the Word of God. I thought the man was "called" to preach the Word, not expound on his Saturday entertainment. Charlie made a mistake, Steve Gaines tried to pull the wool over our eyes - again.
What part of this did you not understand.
I have been lurking for months but have not had time to participate in the discussion in real time before. Usually I just log on once a week and speed read through the posts to keep informed. First let me say keep up the good fight! I'm would think there would be many more like me or at least hope there would be-those who have not been able to always weigh in on the issues at hand. With a brief respit from some other responsibliities I thought I might try my hand at putting in my two-cents worth or maybe at least a penny here and there. I'll speak to the matter of some getting paid in the ork. It's my understanding that the drummer, the two guitarists and the bass player are paid. But several of those who do not get paid agree that the heavenly reward and the present joy in using God-given talents to worship the Lord and direct others' attention toward Him far outweigh any sum that could be offered to compensate for a service of love to Him.
Mom4,
What part of this do you not understand? How many times did Dr. Rogers use his football playing days as illustrations in his sermons? How many times do all preachers use events from their personal lives to illustrate sermons? How do you know he was "pulling the wool" over our eyes. Have you called his office about it? If you do and they tell you yes, he knew that was an old picture when he had the slide put on the screen, then I'll say he "pulled the wool" over our eyes. If you find out from him or his office that yes, when he told us this year's wheelchair winner was from Germantown he knew it wasn't true, I'll say he was "pulling the wool" over our eyes. As a matter of fact, if you find out for certain that he knew the picture was old and that this year's wheelchair winner wasn't from Germantown, I'd say he was out and out lying. Do you know for sure that he knew better on Sunday morning?
Oh by the way - been a member at BBC for 28 years.
SOTL
Lamentations 3:7-11 (King James Version)
7He hath hedged me about, that I cannot get out: he hath made my chain heavy.
8Also when I cry and shout, he shutteth out my prayer.
9He hath inclosed my ways with hewn stone, he hath made my paths crooked.
10He was unto me as a bear lying in wait, and as a lion in secret places.
11He hath turned aside my ways, and pulled me in pieces: he hath made me desolate.
Watching: I understand the point you are TRYING to make, but there is NO WAY God wants children to suffer like that. It is sin that causes this, not God.
Either you have no children or you are not capable of loving and protecting the ones you have because NO ONE who loves children could ever say lessons learned at the hands of a pedophile are in God's perfect plan. I believe 100% in Romans 8:28-29, but God makes good out of sin; I do not believe He places us in sin's way.
Why is the question, Let's be careful. Dr. Rogers illustrated his sermons with stories - not lies - from his life that were true. Bro Steve's daughter was in the Nashville race and there's not a thing wrong with mentioning that in his sermon to us on Sunday. If he knew some of his story was a year old and he was telling us it was current, that would be a lie. My point is that NASS, Mom4, etc. don't know for certain that he realized he wasn't being honest with us, yet they devote an entire thread to it. As moderator of a blog, I would have called his office to check before I put up this thread. Maybe NASS did that and if so, I surely will apologize. I've been away from the blog awhile so I might have missed some posts.
Why is the question, yeah, I noticed some posts suddenly disappearing, too. May be a tecnical glitch, though.
Jeremiah 14:13-17 (King James Version)
13Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.
14Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
15Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.
16And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.
17Therefore thou shalt say this word unto them; Let mine eyes run down with tears night and day, and let them not cease: for the virgin daughter of my people is broken with a great breach, with a very grievous blow.
ilovebbc wrote:
"Bro Steve's daughter was in the Nashville race and there's not a thing wrong with mentioning that in his sermon to us on Sunday."
I agree. I never said there was anything wrong with it.
"If he knew some of his story was a year old and he was telling us it was current, that would be a lie."
Go back and read the topic heading. I didn't say he intentionally lied. I said at the least he was negligent and may have been "willfully dishonest."
"My point is that NASS, Mom4, etc. don't know for certain that he realized he wasn't being honest with us, yet they devote an entire thread to it."
There is no "they" writing these threads. It's a blog, and as blog administrator it's my prerogative to decide what I choose to devote a thread to. I try to find topics I think are interesting and am always open to suggestions. Not everyone is going to like every topic.
"As moderator of a blog, I would have called his office to check before I put up this thread."
And ask them what exactly? If he willfully lied? What are they going to say, "Of course he did"? I can't imagine them admitting something like that, even if it were true. Rather, I think they'd say it was a "mistake of the mind" or blame it on some peon who was supposed to be doing the pastor's research. Either way, he doesn't come out looking too good.
I really don't think he intentionally lied. What would have been the point? I think it was carelessness and sloppiness to a degree that's inexcusable for someone with his education, position, and pay grade.
The question is what will he do with this information now that it's been brought to his attention? Will he correct this mistake, or will he act like nothing happened?
concerned
"Either you have no children or you are not capable of loving and protecting the ones you have because NO ONE who loves children could ever say lessons learned at the hands of a pedophile are in God's perfect plan. I believe 100% in Romans 8:28-29, but God makes good out of sin; I do not believe He places us in sin's way."
Tell that to Jeremiah.
ilovebbc wrote:
"Why is the question, yeah, I noticed some posts suddenly disappearing, too. May be a tecnical glitch, though."
No, it wasn't! "Hisservant" or "4545," a troll by any other name is still a troll.
whs,
Just stop.
My wife and I use netflix for our movie rentals and I was thinking that the 1933 King Kong movie depicts SG's preaching. So I have the movie comming.
Can't you see God ("King Kong") caged behind him as he gives his altar calls? He's conquered God and labeled him a "God of Love" and assures every sinner who comes forward by their own determination will be saved.
Something to think about ilovebbc: I don't think the issue is did sg deliberately lie to us or not not. The issue is of one of more magnitude. First of all, who prepared his sermon? If he prepared it he had to khow that his information or the way he presented it was wrong.
The point is that there is a CHRONIC glut of information that is not correct. Is that how we are to handle God's Word? Is that how we are to handle our words and relationships with each other?
God tells us to speak the turth one to another. Does that mean sloppy agape guide lines to PERHAPS follow if convienient?
Where do YOU draw the line of incorrect information? How do you know if anything else he says in not just as sloppy on the truth and what he has already shown to be NOT true?
As children of God we are to be much more concerned with character and truth than what we have seen to be true.
This is just another symptom of the problem manifested in "unimportant facts". It goes right along with:
Itty bitty fence
I had no dream
Hetzbullah
1 and 2 Tim. and Titus are only guidelines
I never have used any chruch credit card ever for personal use
ETC.
So yes, it is a big deal. Truth is essential and not elective, especially in anyone who is a leader.
ilovebbc,
Steve Gaines may not have known he was totally wrong on the year and outcomes of the race in his sermon preparation but he sure did know the fence was above his belt line instead of being an itty bityy fence the height of his shin as he pointed to the people.
That sure didn't seem to bother him.
The one world chruch is the same spirit as the one world government. And, so many of these leaders, whethere of the church or of government, have some of the very same charistics and the biggest one that manifests itself the most is that of being slippery and slick and not concrete and clear in their words. There is good readson for that. The liars try to "sound good" to all ears. I agree totally with the ones who say that sg reminds them of Clinton.
There is no reason for any christian not to be totally clear in all they say and honest. It is thea character of a believer. Just as the children of satan take after their father in being dishonest liars, so also the children of God take after their Father and speak the truth.
nathanb wrote:
"Steve Gaines may not have known he was totally wrong on the year and outcomes of the race in his sermon preparation but he sure did know the fence was above his belt line instead of being an itty bityy fence the height of his shin as he pointed to the people."
After the March 25th "business" meeting a man was heard asking Steve Gaines, among other things, "What about the fence? That's never been answered. Why would you illegally climb over a fence surrounding a gated community and go to a man's house unannounced when all you had to do was pick up the phone and call him first?" That sounds like a pretty simple question, one I've often wondered about myself.
Instead of answering the man's question though, SG reportedly held his hand down around his knee (similar gesture to the one he made in the 9/24 "information" meeting while describing the same incident) and said, "Nobody ever said it was a little old fence that was only this high!"
Oh, really?
Rod,
Regarding your 6:37 p.m. comment, yes! That's the point! Thank you.
Oh how true! You hit the nail right on the head!
I'm behind the times but a Jamie Parker SHOW is EXACTLY what it is! I've always called it American Idol New Bellevue style or Brown Bags to famous!
Its the sign of the times.
We are headed not for revival but for apostasy.
All over the world the church is becoming impotent and turning from the Truth OR it is on fire and being persecuited for the Truth.
We are in the last days and we will be seeing more and more compromise with the world and a watering down of the Word and a focus on FEELINGS, rather than the Truth.
We will be entertained and people will have itching ears and want to feel good about themselves and each other. True love is waxing cold. There will be more and more compromise with the world, the flesh and the devil.
If it were possible, because satan appears as an angel of light, even the elect will be decived. That means those who have the gift of discernment ought to use their gift for the sake of the Body.
stayedonthee,
Welcome. :)
ima said....
How am I to know who is actually preaching to me?
REPLY:
When the pastor preaches for 30 to 40 minutes WITHOUT referring to ANY notes EXCEPT the Bible.
It appears that Joyce Rogers is leaving Bellevue and attending Germantown.
How grevious it must be for her and her family to see all that she and her beloved husband worked for and built up and were blessed to see the Lord use so mightly, go down "the tubes" in such a short time. Such a short time to destroy all that was built up by the Lord!
ICHOBOD! It is amazing. If I didn't see it with my own eyes, I would not have believed it could have happened to such a wonderful church as Bellevue was!
Will Bellevue's camdlestick be put out? Will Ichobod be written across the lentils?
I am guilty as charged. I DID in fact post outdated info about IBC. My most humble apologies.
nathanb,
Yes, we received the letter about Wed. nights. All children have to go to church with their parents. We had the same reaction--no teachers. A friend of mine told me they had read an ad advertising for teachers for BBC. Will try to follow up and see where they saw it.
As I have stated severval days ago, a ten year old could stand in the pulpit and read Scripture and fill in the blanks. Just how hard is that?
Speaking of the letter concerning Wed. nights. Have you seen the Bellevue Messerger? Go to page 4. I have asked a few people if they had seen it, they said "no,they had thrown them in the garbage w/o looking at it."
The last paragraph is all I could I read. Quote "Let me close by saying I love you and love being your pastor." Oh, how I wish that was true. It appears the only people he loves are those that lie to him and tell him how great he is, if not your are his enemy.
watching said,
concernedsbcer said,
"Either you have no children or you are not capable of loving and protecting the ones you have because NO ONE who loves children could ever say lessons learned at the hands of a pedophile are in God's perfect plan. I believe 100% in Romans 8:28-29, but God makes good out of sin; I do not believe He places us in sin's way."
Watchings reply: Tell that to Jeremiah.
OC's Reply: Get a grip, watching. The words you quoted from Jeremiah and then used to try to terrorize were meant for those who willingly follow false prophets. If you think for one minute that God wants any child molested for any reason, then you are one sick puppy and you and I need to meet in person. I mean it.
OC.
oc
Couldn't false prophets be saying this very day that the pedophile is not a part of God's judgement and they are speaking a false vision and the desires of their heart?
And if that were so then might God pour out their wickedness upon the ones who listen to them.
Of coarse you are the theologian and can determine if this is or not possible.
Watching,
You can go ahead and be an S A all you want.
The fact of the matter is that God does not want children to be molested, and if you cannot accept that and believe that, then you are one sick puppy. Therefore, shut up about saying that molesting kids is God's plan, and if you can't stop saying it, then meet me face to face. My email is available. Use it. PLEASE.
OC.
oc
what is an S A?
From the fortune cookie I got with my dinner tonight:
In silence man can most readily maintain his integrity.
watching said,
oc
what is an S A?
Reply: You cannot figure that out? Then you are too heavenly minded to be of any earthly use. Figure that out.
oc
did your mother ever tell you it is not nice to tell people to shut up?
others on this blog have told me to shut up.
Is this discussing Bellevue's situation in a Christ-like manner?
watching said,
oc
did your mother ever tell you it is not nice to tell people to shut up?
others on this blog have told me to shut up.
Is this discussing Bellevue's situation in a Christ-like manner?
Reply: Well, maybe you should take the advice. Shut up then. And as far as my mother goes, she told me not to put up with punks. Now what?
oc
Proverbs 4:23-24 (King James Version)
23Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
24Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee.
Could someone give oc and me an answer to this question?
Couldn't false prophets be saying this very day that the pedophile is not a part of God's judgement and they are speaking a false vision and the desires of their heart?
And if that were so then might God pour out their wickedness upon the ones who listen to them?
Richard Dawkins....Aithiest leader on ABC 24.
AntiChrist..... He is on right now. 20/20
Well he is off now....but the program continues on Faith
ezekial
can you answer the above question?
watching said,
Couldn't false prophets be saying this very day that the pedophile is not a part of God's judgement and they are speaking a false vision and the desires of their heart?
Reply: Uh huh. They could. And they could do the exact opposite too. I choose to go with what is more towards God's character. So. Exactly where are you going?
OC.
watching said:
Is this discussing Bellevue's situation in a Christ-like manner?
sotl says:
Just to let you know, Jesus told me to tell you to shut your trap.
Also, your posts are becoming more and more alarming to me.
Do the Collierville Police know of your whereabouts? I'm thinkin they might need to keep an eye on you.
There is something VERY wrong with you.
Charlie Fox said, "When the pastor preaches for 30 to 40 minutes WITHOUT referring to ANY notes EXCEPT the Bible."
Reply: HEY CHARLIE! You got that right!!! AMEN!!! And you know what Charlie..that is what I am doing these days! Let me tell ya...sitting and listening to the guys I am hearing these days ain't a thing short of a pure blessing! And you know who I am talking about! I am in heaven! Finally!!!
Ima
oc
They could and that would be in keeping with God's character. (Rom 1:18)
You and SG assume that "God is Love" and that would not be in keeping with God's character. Also my JW friend agrees with you also.
off-line
whs,
Since you have been SO VERY
critical of DR. R. not being able to see thru PW, I don't want to make the same mistake with you.
So I am telling you NOW that I am picking up on the fact that you are a very evil and demonic man.
Peter Popoff is on 20/20. What a blast from the past!
Get your free "Miracle Spring Water"! Don't forget to send back the "empty" with your $17.00.
Watchinghistory,
This is going to sort of ramble......
One of the references I posted earlier today gave me the impression that one is "called" by or through affliction. Meaning everyone is "called" because everyone is afflicted.
Maybe a good question to ask is why do bad things happen to good people. Why do young children get cancer? Why do 61 yr old people die from preventable diseases? Why did that 16 yr old die in a car wreck?
How many people out there came to know Jesus, really came to know Jesus because something bad happened to them? Because they were afflicted? Because they got to the point that they couldn't do anything but turn to Jesus. How many victims walk a walk with their heavenly father today because their earthly father is gone or abandoned them or abused them?
Does God condone sin? No, certainly not. However if you look at history, God used Babylon and Assyria to crush Israel and then he turns around and crushes those nations. So I think it is safe to say that God uses bad people to serve HIS purpose.
The potter made vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath.........
When Jerusalem fell, the last hold outs were doing all sorts of bad things (eating their children in Chronicles I think, and pregnant women were cut open.......
False prophets have been tickling ears and crying peace....peace for so long......
I would just say that as I read through the second time, the God I have been told about must have changed because He used to be Holy and would not tolerate sin. These days, anything goes but we are saved if we joined the church.
Don't listen to me.... Read the WORD, let the Holy Spirit guide....Be warned......Revelations is the end of the story for uncircumcised hearts.....Hard hearts.
Jeremiah is the book that most accurately applies to the modern day church in my opinion. There is a lot of unfulfilled prophecy in the OT prophets....major and minor. Take a look at Obadiah.....Amos...Habakkuk
I read every morning and it has become the best part of my day. The WORD is opening up and striking fear in me..... a lot of fear.
Psalms tells us that knowledge is fear of the Lord and understanding is fleeing from evil.....The Word gives you that knowledge and understanding.
"Just my unhumble opinion, cause I know it's right.."
Pride, arrogance.....
"Pride, arrogance..... "
...full moon?
That's about the only plausible explanation for this night.
To those who are concerned about the cancelling of summer children activities, it could be true that teachers are "dropping like flies", but you must be fair. Steve did this last year as well. In fact, that was one of the first back of "changes", and the rational was to give teachers a break so they didn't wear them out. As someone who has served in Wednesday night Children's programs for years, I personally think that wasn't necessarily a bad idea. The "teacher exodus" didn't start until this year. I've heard anecdotally that there have been many people suddenly interested in participating in activities that took them out of the Worship service. Should be good news for the preschool coordinators...
Should have known when Popoff showed up. Order your water yet?
ezekiel wrote:
"Order your water yet?"
Not yet. Gotta save up the money for my "seed" gift. It appears the Reverend Petey's back to his old tricks.
I have been wondering what the "seeders"
do with Isaiah 1 other than ignore it and hope folks don't read it.
Sad thing is that as we were teaching our kids this the other day, my wife got to wondering just how busy the phone lines were. They claimed 150+ phone lines....wife called and got a busy signal...
Good night, NASS.
Thanks for the forum and all the work you put into it.
POOR BRO. STEVE
Poor Bro. Steve has lost his sheep,
And can't tell where to find them;
Leave them alone, and they'll
never come home,
And bring their tithe with
them.
Poor Bro Steve fell fast asleep,
And dreamt he heard them bleating;
But when he awoke, he found it a
joke,
For still they all were fleeing.
Then up he took his little crooks,
Determined for to find them;
He found them indeed, but it made
his heart bleed,
For they'd left all their tithe
behind'em!
It happened one day, as Poor Bro. Steve did stray
Unto a meadow hard by-
There he espied their tithe, side
by side,
All hung on a tree to dry.
He heaved a sigh and wiped his eye,
And over the hillocks he raced;
And tried what he could, as a bad
shepherd would,
But it was too late. All the sheep and gone bye-bye!
Mother Goose
Thank you, zeke. Good night!
The last sentence should have read ,
All the sheep HAD gone bye-bye!
And to all a good night.``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
I can't believe I missed all the insanity tonight!
HOW do we heal from all this???
Charlie...I guess you need a raise!
ezekial
Jeremiah is the book that most accurately applies to the modern day church in my opinion. There is a lot of unfulfilled prophecy in the OT prophets....major and minor. Take a look at Obadiah.....Amos...Habakkuk
I read every morning and it has become the best part of my day. The WORD is opening up and striking fear in me..... a lot of fear.
whs says
I've come to know the fear that you are speaking about and we should all come to sense that fear as we are living in evil times.
Post a Comment