In his new book When God Comes to Church (B&H Publishing), Steve Gaines asserts that the great need of the church today is a renewed sense of God's presence. He writes: "I once heard an old-time preacher speaking about God sending fire from heaven onto Mount Carmel during the prophet Elijah's day (I Kings 18). He said that the manifest presence of God is 'when God shows up, and He shows off!' He comes in not to take sides but to take over. When He arrives in splendor and glory, it is obvious to everyone that He is present and He is in charge. The human agendas fade away in the overwhelmingly awesome presence of the King of kings."For years now this has been my primary prayer for every worship service in the churches I have served. The longer I live, the less interested I am in how many people we have in the sanctuary. What is far more important to me is how much of God we have in the place. If He comes, we will have a wonderful service, no matter if there's only a handful. I know some preachers who think if a thousand people come to their morning services, or fifteen hundred, or two thousand, they've had a great Sunday. Not necessarily. I say to them, 'You haven't had a great Sunday unless God shows up!'"
Learn more.
The motion to adjourn the "business" meeting could have been worse.
346 comments:
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NASS,
Two things stood out immediately to me in the short exerpt you posted.
The first comment was the statement: "He said that the manifest presence of God is 'when God shows up, and He shows off!'"
Anyone who has truly been in the presence of Holy God knows that the true evidence of the Holy Spirit's presence is a profound sense of humility and awe. God does not "show off", He is the GREAT I AM!
The second being the statement about God showing up:
"If He comes, we will have a wonderful service, no matter if there's only a handful."
The "IF" troubles me deeply for we know that in context, "if two or more are gathered in His name, He IS in the midst of them".
Is Steve Gaines hoping that God will show up in the services, or is he trusting the scriptures to be truth and stepping out in faith on that truth?
This is extremely disturbing to the faithful who know the difference between the works of men and the workings of God! It is no wonder our church is in trouble - SCRIPTURALLY!
Another thing that was of note on the link is the listings of those who have purchased this book and the other literature they have purchased. This deems worth of some indepth research by those who are Biblically sound and can distinguish between scripture and heresy! II Tim. 2:15
Wow! Where does one begin!
I guess I'll just star off with the obvious fact that there is a difference between the Jews of the Old Testament and their relationship to God, and the Church, the Bride of Christ in the New Testament and their relationship with The Lord. It is impossible to have the believers meet together without the Holy Spirit and the Lord being present. Our bodies are athe temple of the Holy Spirit IF we are saved.
To look for EXTERNAL signs and wonders of the presence of God, The Shekiniah Glory, or to evaluate a chruch service on emotion and feeling is EXTREMELY dangerous and unscriptural grounds. Plus, it is a total lack of doctrinal understanding.
I sugguest that if the author the those words quoted from "When God Shows up", go into his closet and seek for a personal relationship with the Lord and not go by emotions or feelings or look for visible signs. We are not living in Elijah's day.
We are told in the N.T. that it is the wicked that look for signs and miracles. And, we know that one is coming who will perform all sorts of lying wonders.
Another thing that is striking is the comments about the number of people in the "audience". That I don't unddrstand in respect to the actions of the author.
It may sound good to some but it is doctrinaly incorrect.
God is not a show off and never performs miracles for the entertainment of others! He doesn't resort to smoke, fire and mirrors to show others He is present or in control.
God is always in control. God is always present in the hearts of His saints. Remember what Jesus said about OUTWARD RELIGION for show!
If you are in the midst of God's people and you are praying that God will show up, you are either totaly ignorant of the scriptures or calling for another god.
rod said..."If you are in the midst of God's people and you are praying that God will show up, you are either totaly ignorant of the scriptures or calling for another god."
AMEN!
Hence the problems at BBC!! It looks to me that those who are Gaines supporters would see the error in his teachings, words, actions and sermons! I don't understand how they can have once sat under Dr Rogers and now are content to sit in darkness??
I agree with what has already been posted regarding the fact that God is ALWAYS present when two or more are gathered in His Name. I looked at the other books purchased as listed on Amazon and there appears to me to be a connecting thread of emergence and emotionalism.
It seems really fluffy and feel-good to me, based on the excerpts and reviews. jmho
test
Gaines and Merrill write thoroughly about what attracts God to our worship gatherings --sincere prayer, repentance, unity, etc. (emphasis added)
Gobstruck!
Now SG is hoping that God is a seeker!
pitiful
Have you notice the "spirit" that is in the world and in politics and permiates the schools today? What is its basis of operation? How are the crowds moved into action?
It is never on reasoning or the mind, and it is not based on TRUTH or facts. It is operates through emotions. Commercial ads on t.v. are based on moving the emotions of its hearers. The politically correct movement, which is communistic mind control, is also based, NOT on reasoning but on feelings and emotions.
SATAN OPERATES IN THE SPHERE OF EMOTIONS! God tell us to renew our MINDS. We need to know what the Bible says, cover to cover and all in context. The emotional side of man is his most shallow and vulnerable side and it is constantly changing. This is where satan works on the believers who do not know the scriptures. This is very dangerous grounds.
After reading the link with excerps to Steve Gaine's book he co-authored with Dean Merrill, all I have to say is
WHAT?
How amazing it is that something can "sound so good" to the weak and babes in Christ, yet be so empty of truth and substance! I guess it appeals to those with "itching" ears and teachers who make them feel good. Yet it is empty of truth and substance and dangerous.
This is rank mysticism
Doubt it ?
Don't.
Look here ..
Tuning in to gods voice and manifesting his presence ..TAUGHT BY " LEADERSHIP TRAINING SEMINARS"
TUNING IN AND MANIFESTING GODS PRESENCE TECHNIQUES AND FORMULAS PEDDLED TO PASTORS
NBBCOF and other concerned BBCers
This following article is critically important in light of your recent conversations.
DANGERS OF DIVINATION AND MYSTICISM POSING AS WORSHIP OR COMMUNING WITH GOD AND HIS PRESENCE
and ...then this ..
TODAYS DREAM WEAVERS ...
DREAM WEAVERS AND THEIR FALSE VISIONS, DREAMS AND UNBIBLICAL TEACHINGS
mom4 wrote:
"The 'IF' troubles me deeply for we know that in context, 'if two or more are gathered in His name, He IS in the midst of them'."
But that's from Matthew chapter 18 (verse 20), and we've heard Matthew 18 doesn't apply to the pastor.
There's a new post here.
NASS,
IF that is what they believe, then they are not scriptural. (can you say: "RED FLAG" !!!!
mom4,
I believe that's what Steve Tucker and Chuck Taylor told Dr. Spradlin -- just before he rebuked them and showed them the door.
NASS,
He not only rebuked them, he rebuked them in Jesus name! What a testimony that man has!
Thank you, New BBC Open Forum for that link. How very interesting and it makes it clear that what we see and feel on the surface has very deep and pitiful roots.
I do not understand why, The Kid is feeling so quilty and in need of forgiveness. I have not read any of his other posts, however, doesn't he know that when God reveals things, He most often does it through His people? We are told to CONTEND for the faith. Contend is a fighting Word, and I would go so far as to say if we see something that is wrong or untrue, God will hold us responsible for NOT briging it to light.
To keep quiet and be intimidated and think that God will somehow perform some sort of a miracle to bring something to light is not how He works in His chruch. We are to speak the truth to one another. If we see our brother in sin we ARE COMMANDED to go to him. If our brother has sinned against us we are commanded to go to him. If we see sin or anything that will cause hurt to the body of Christ we are commanded to reveal or deal with it, not to just let it go and say God will take care of it. Afterall, WE, the Church is the BODY of Christ that does His will here on earth.
If those in the know had stood up and publically revealed what was going on behind closed doors, to the entire congregation, instead of letting it grow and fester, we would still, perhaps have our Bellevue as a beacon of light. Now it is a place of darkness, whispering, murmuring, divisiveness, brash and noisy sounds and clammoring and complaints. It NEVER had that spirit there before this changeover. Even when there was no pastor it was still the beacon of light for Christ.
I am a first time writer, but, have read a lot of what has been written. Even though we aren’t members now, our family were members of Bellevue for a good many years and if I should mention my son and daughters names, some of the long time members would probably recognize them. So much that has happened to our family has been through Bellevue, therefore, we still love Bellevue very much. That leads me to say what I want to say and feel strongly about.
WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE???????
How long does all of these things that have happened, have to go on before you stand up and unite and do something about it??? The members ARE the church and by your tithes and offerings, you have EVERY right to walk in that church and go anywhere, see anything you want to see without absolutely on one to stop you!!! Are all of you, who don’t like what is going on, ever going to get the backbone to do this??
I recently read about a 15 year old girl who was mistreated AND mishandled by a security guard, and if all of this is true, where are the MEN of Bellevue hiding??? If this had been my child, the police would be at the church the next day to arrest everyone involved. The media would have been called, and as they say, heads would roll.
Why are you letting a few men run the church, and why are you so afraid of them?? If you think you are being good Christians by taking all of this, well, let me tell you, you aren’t. I have a plaque in my home that says “What Would Jesus Do”. Sit back and try to imagine, if Jesus walked the earth today and was by some chance a member of Bellevue, What Would Jesus Do???? Do you think the apostle Paul would put up with this from these people at Bellevue, that call themselves “the leaders of the church?” I think not----no, I know not!!
What is the “dictator” of Bellevue going to have to do before you rise up and become MEN and take your great church back?? Speak up, make demands, and yes, expect answers. If they don’t give you the answers you deserve, then ask for people who will. You as members of the church ARE the most important people at Bellevue. Without your membership, there would be no church. You are letting one man, and his “henchmen”, dictate everything!!! WAKE-UP, and demand what you have a right to know! Have your own meetings and make decisions, as what to do and where to begin. And, yes, if you want to get rid of some of the “higher ups”, then do so, and keep on until you do.
To end this, I will just say, DO SOMETHING, or leave Bellevue and go to another church. But, don’ be a bunch of “spineless complainers.” It sounds like you love to complain and gossip and don’t intend to do one thing about it. I said, it wouldn’t be unchristian to do something, but, it is unchristian to use this website to talk, complain, and yes, gossip. Take charge to take your beloved Bellevue back, or close this website down!!
Stand firm, you seem to be reading and enjoying the web site, and keeping yourself posted on what is going on at Bellevue after you have left.
I guess you just chose to say nothing and leave Bellevue, but eavesdrop on what is going on.
I think you have some good points in your post and it is evident you are very angry, but at who or what? That Bellevue has been hyjacked or at those of us who are reasoning about what is going on and what is or is not scriptural and what it is that we can do about it?
You must be peeking in quite a lot to get so upset over what has absolutely nothing to do with you.
NASS used my cartoon! :)
karen
Now, rod, be nice. standfirm may be "new" to us, but I suspect there is MUCH wisdom in his post.
One who is fresh in the battle need not be scorned for stating the obvious. Remember King David as a boy? He came to the battle lines to bring his brothers some food. His brothers saw a GIANT that they had been facing for days. David saw a HUGE TARGET that, with God's help, he could not miss! :o)
Know why David picked up 5 stones? Goliath had 4 brothers! David was prepared to take 'em all on!
Oh, Lord, help us face our giants.
Hey? Are you Karen or Scott Adams?
:o)
standfirm,
I appreciate your intent but you really have no idea what you are talking about.
I am still learning about the men...yes men...that have been taking stands with leadership,missing work,income,meeting individually with leadership,deacons,ministers.....doing all that they know to do short of protesting in front of the church,
There are certainly those that whine
and take no personal risks to speak the truth
but now that I have a better understanding of many that have been at work at least since
October I must speak up to your post.
For some reason ,we have not all gotten together at the same time but the bullies and blackmailers in leadership were prepared and ready for take over.
Our men who have taken stands have behaved like Christian men would....thinking we were dealing with our church and not who we are really up against.
People are exhausted and beaten down and shamed.
So yes...we have our whiners and ones that see and do nothing for fear of one thing or another.
But I know personally of several,MANY men, who have worked and sacrificed.
Leadership had their plans and money and tactics already in place.
They started to weed out the deacons
(who were meeting separately off campus)
and the miniters they saw as a problem early on.
Our men never expected to go up against the ....(I am going to say it)...
devils.....they have come up against.
Our men thought they were dealing with godly,wise men....people they thought they had real relationships with.
Our men did not expect to be lied to and bullied and shamed and blackmailed.
gmommylv,
Call 'em, what you will, they are giants. I'm thinking that they are building a wall.
(Think of Jerico...)
I wonder what would happen if we marched around BBC (quietly) for 6 days, and then...
:o)
Wouldn't that be fun?!?!?
If they will handcuff and cuss at a 15 year old...we would have to have our own security march with us.
BUT YET, after PW confessed to SG,
he walked out of SG's office and said...
"I have never felt more affirmed in my life"
NASS,
You have mail.
gmommylv said:
standfirm,
I appreciate your intent but you really have no idea what you are talking about.
I am still learning about the men...yes men...that have been taking stands with leadership,missing work,income,meeting individually with leadership,deacons,ministers.....doing all that they know to do short of protesting in front of the church,
There are certainly those that whine
and take no personal risks to speak the truth
but now that I have a better understanding of many that have been at work at least since
October I must speak up to your post.
For some reason ,we have not all gotten together at the same time but the bullies and blackmailers in leadership were prepared and ready for take over.
Our men who have taken stands have behaved like Christian men would....thinking we were dealing with our church and not who we are really up against.
Gmommylv I know what you know, and probably more, but I have to respectfully disagree with you.
Standfirm is exactly right - there has been a disgustingly small number of men who have stood up and taken a stand given that we are an almost 30,000 member church.
Standfirm - I applaud your post.
Perhaps "standfirm" moved away from Memphis. I don't know that to be true, but it's a thought. Perhaps s/he will come back and clear that up.
And to "standfirm" and "rs's" comments, I say this.
rs,
Stop carrying steve's bags and do something from the inside.
We are not a 30,000 member church. At best, we are at 20,000 pre Steve Gaines so we are probably 16,000 to 17,000 in reallity at the most. There are 10,000 that we can't get mail to because we don't know where they are.
Even Steve Gaines in his new book deal says we are at 27,000. Perhaps he's already discounting the 3,000 plus that are awol.
"To look for EXTERNAL signs and wonders of the presence of God, The Shekiniah Glory, or to evaluate a chruch service on emotion and feeling is EXTREMELY dangerous and unscriptural grounds. Plus, it is a total lack of doctrinal understanding."
Amen,Rod. This actually angered Jesus when the Pharisees asked for a sign. Jesus told them they could discern the weather looking at the sky but....you know the rest...and He called them Hypocrites.
The part about God showing off made me cringe and even fear for him in many ways.
Emotions and feelings? Well, we know who rules the earth right now. And we know the heart is decietful...best to not trust feelings but to only trust the Word.
We tend to forget that anyone can write a book. PDL is shallow tripe yet sold millions.
nathanb -
If you think I'm carrying Steve's bags you couldn't be further - and I mean further - from the truth. You don't know who I am or what you are talking about - please email me.
rs,
I was not saying we should not take a stand.
I was merely acknowledging the men that HAVE been working.
Please don't assume I was speaking of the people we know in common.
You don't know everything and everyone.
"I know what you know"..that statement doesn't sit well with me.
I hope it is the sleep deprivation.
Rod Wrote: It is never on reasoning or the mind, and it is not based on TRUTH or facts. It is operates through emotions. Commercial ads on t.v. are based on moving the emotions of its hearers. The politically correct movement, which is communistic mind control, is also based, NOT on reasoning but on feelings and emotions.
SATAN OPERATES IN THE SPHERE OF EMOTIONS! "
Rod, preach it! The only 'emotion' we should trust is when we are totally broken over our sin..that is a conviction from the Holy Spirit.
Rod Almondmartanti said...
Stand firm, you seem to be reading and enjoying the web site, and keeping yourself posted on what is going on at Bellevue after you have left.
Response: First, I never left Bellevue on my own accord. We moved to another city, and found a very good Baptist Church there. I would never have left Bellevue in the condition it is now in. I began reading it when we moved back. We would have rejoined Bellevue, if not for SG and what is going on.
Rod Almondmartanti said...I think you have some good points in your post and it is evident you are very angry, but at who or what? That Bellevue has been hyjacked or at those of us who are reasoning about what is going on and what is or is not scriptural and what it is that we can do about it?
Response: How can you ask me what I am angry about?? WHO? At all the members who disagree with what has gone on at Bellevue for a year and a half. From the very beginning when SG came to Bellevue and what started going on until he kept Paul Williams on the payroll. At the 15 yr. old girl who was mistreated , and on and on. No one is rising up and doing one thing about it. You are sitting on your hands as if you are deaf and dumb. I would love to know how much more reasoning you and others are going to have to do, before you understand that it is time to stop all of that. In my opinion, the Lord, has put so much right in your face that is so unscriptual for the church "leaders" to act the way they do, and no one does anything. Mr. Almond, if your house were on fire, would you stop and pray about it and look up what is scriptual, or would you do what the good Lord gave you the good sense to do. PUT OUT THE FIRE !!!I also want to make another point. The people who are sitting in church every Sunday, and listening to SG and like him, are not the hypocrites. The members, like yourself, who complain, sit around and do nothing, and go to church, but, have anger in your hearts against SG, are the real hypocrites.
Rod Almondmartanti said...You must be peeking in quite a lot to get so upset over what has absolutely nothing to do with you.
Response:How dare you say this doesn't have anything to do with me! I am a Christian first and foremost. What is going on at, what use to be a great church, and a church that so many people have always admired and looked up to for guidance, is now being ridiculed. I have heard comments from people saying that, if that is the way Christians act, then we don't want any part of it. Non-christians love this! And, Mr. Almond,that is my business!!
gmommylv -
I think sleep deprivation on both sides :)
I think you know what I mean - and I'm sure agree - One of the biggest problems we have is that many,many of our men have not taken a stand.
Sure there are some good, strong men that we both mutually know that are working hard to get something done. However there are hundreds more who refuse to get involved. That's how I interpret Standfirm's call for action. He/She is right.
Stand Firm
You echo what Tim Coggins has been saying for some time now.
People have met in small groups with the leadership and have tried to approach this from a "Let's reason together" perspective.
YOU DON'T NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS.
Why? Because they don't go by any rules and they will lie.
THIS ADMINISTRATION DOES NOT FOLLOW THE RULES AND THEY LIE.
While men in small groups meet and talk, a larger meeting to alert the membership is put on hold.
THIS IS WHAT THE LEADERSHIP WANTS- time for all this to blow over.
They will try to stroke the egos of those they meet with and talk out both sides if their mouth while checking their watches.
I say BEWARE!! Time is slipping away and so is our membership!!
I applaud Tim for trying to inform the membership and let the members' voices be heard but the GLOVES SHOULD BE OFF!! The members need to rise up and GET A COURT ORDER FOR THOSE RECORDS AND THE MEMBERSHIP LIST!! THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE WEEKS AGO!!!
This is just embarrassing. Good night!! My retired Daddy is ready to start a picket line at the church, for goodness sakes. If all the members who have left, including us, would go back and stand in protest to this foolishness, what could they possibly do??
But they have picked us off one by one because we have yet to truly unite.
**********************************
Okay, I've been holding that in for awhile and now I'm glad it's out there.
If you're angry at me - and you know who you are...Shoot me.
standfirm,
I think I hear what you are saying about the perceived (and in some cases real) lack of action on the part of some BBC members.
I would just say, don't assume that what you read on the blog is all that is going on. Some (not all) are doing things and taking stands... just because you don't read it here, doesn't mean it isn't happening.
just my two cents...
Regarding the thread topic - if God "shows up" I fear it may be a bolt of lightening, Steve.
MB, you have my permission to use that. :)
stand firm,
I do agree completely with what you are saying, just don't lump ALL of us into that bunch. Early on I suggested that we meet and pray at the altar at 8 am and only a handful showed up. Then I suggested that we make a stand during the Sunday morning service and demand answers and that was shot down by the anti-truthseekers accusing me of doing something vile that would interfere with the "worship". Then I suggested a boycott on a particular Sunday and that too was shot down as being ineffective - and how would that be ineffective if no one showed up - what in the world would we miss? We have had very little response to the petitions only because folks are afraid (hear that - AFRAID!) to put their names out there. Well, my entire family has made stand after stand. We have friends who have turned their back on us, called me an evildoer to my face and said that I was trying to make GBC a "little bellvue" - yeah, right. Even my teenagers have signed the petitions with their REAL NAMES, at an early age, knowing good from evil only because they know God's Word and recognize lies for what they are. I work with men who are deacons in the church and they are the most wasted space I have ever met as far as this goes. Whiney britches the lot of them!! My husband and I stood alone in the group we were seated with at the "business" meeting. There were plenty of men around us. They remained seated thru out the entire fiasco, neither making a stand one way or the other. Perhaps it was because of the cameras, perhaps it was because they were clueless on how to vote, perhaps they were afraid, or perhaps they are weak, or perhaps they are ignorant. Who knows?? But I am tired of it. In the words of someone smarter than most of the men of BBC, "Stupid is as Stupid does!
standfirm -
Could you email me?
Is SG's book now available in stores?
Next Sunday, April 29th, outside the Bellevue bookstore from 3:30-5:30 pm, Steve Gaines is having a book signing for his latest and greatest.
Part 3 lists "hindrances": Formalism, Fanaticism, Liberalism, Legalism and Traditionalism. Seems he overlooked "Warrenism".
Part 4 is "Pressing On" and the only chapter is titled "Discontented". Now I wonder what that's about. If Steve runs true to form, he'll be beating the sheep again.
Dean Merrill's Bio
Just something to think about:
Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, And Nobody
This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.
Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.
Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.
SG's co-author was pentecostal writer, Dean Merrill. Merrill also co-authored Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire with Jim Cymbala of Brooklyn Tabernacle.
Cymbala and Merrill's book was reviewed by Gary Gilley here.
Here is an interesting portion from that review...
Calling the Spirit Down
Cymbala takes a clearly charismatic position on the ministry of the Holy Spirit. "The Spirit of God came down upon us" (p.18). "People began to sense the presence of the Lord in that humble place" (p.31). "I felt the Spirit nudging me" (p.128). In a complaint about ordered church services Cymbala states, "A basic sign of revival is that the wind is allowed to blow where it will. . . . Are church members encouraging their pastors to act on the Lord’s prompting no matter the cost?" (p.134) Quoting positively a friend of Charles Finney, "I am now convinced, it is my duty and privilege, and the duty of every other Christian, to pray for as much of the Holy Spirit as came down on the day of Pentecost, and a great deal more" (p.176).
Reviewer’s Comment: The "coming down of the Holy Spirit" and "feeling His presence," etc. are not New Testament teachings. The Holy Spirit has already come, and we already possess all of the Holy Spirit that is available. Besides, how could we know when we "feel" His presence? To pray for the Holy Spirit to come down as at Pentecost, is a gross misunderstanding both of the purpose of Pentecost and of the present ministry of the Holy Spirit.
Revelation in the Inner Spirit
Cymbala supports the increasingly accepted view that one can hear from God in the inner spirit. "I sensed God speaking. . . . I knew I had heard from God. . . . His word to me was. . ." (p.25). "Brothers and sisters, I really feel that I’ve heard from God about the future of our church" (p.27). "The Holy Spirit stopped me. ‘No!’ a voice seemed to say. ‘Fight for him! Cry out to me!’" "The Holy Spirit spoke to one of the choir members" (p.103). "As I spoke, the Holy Spirit seemed to prompt me to add" (p.160). Of course what God had to say to Cymbala was what every pastor would love to hear, "If you and your wife will lead my people to pray and call upon my name, you will never lack for something fresh to preach. I will supply all the money that’s needed, both for the church and for your family, and you will never have a building large enough to contain the crowds I will send in response" (p.25).
Reviewer’s Comment: Where in Scripture does one find this concept? That God has communicated audibly, in dreams and visions, through prophets and apostles, we are in agreement, but this "inner voice" is not to be found. Even the Vineyard theologian Jack Deere claims that the concept of God guiding through promptings, impressions, and insights has no biblical base. He says, "The word ‘prompt’ never appears in Scripture with God as the subject. [We are being] asked to believe in a form of guidance that can’t even be found in the Bible" (Surprised by the Voice of God, pp.283,284). When men like Deere can poke holes in our understanding of revelation, we had better take a second look.
Hi all you lovely tenderhearted and wounded folks.
I have been so blessed with lots and lots of work and no, (that is NO) time for much else so I have not been here to encourage you ALL in the Lord Jesus.
For me first and then, for whomever else reading here is a quotation from, Adrianisms, Volume Two page 99.
"Your reputation is your ACTIONS,
Your character is your REACTIONS."
My prayer for you ALL and then me is, that the Holy Spirit of God will continuously author both our actions and reactions.
By an act of our will we must insist this of ourselves.
Amen
Padroc
PS When you follow the link to Amazon.com click on the co-author's name and read up on what else and whom else he has collaborated with. Dean Merrill is the "constant" in much of this sensorial "garbage".
PPS Genealogy records are void of any records in this time and space of a Bill Looney, MD. A search and rescue team has been sent to the far reaches following his trail of purported stardust out of this realm. Should he be located or any solid genealogical evidence be discovered I will report back. Pray hard.
Does anyone know if this new book deal is being run through HOPE FOR YOUR FUTURE INC?
His other book deal was done in this name but I figure since everyone is on to him, he's changed the money route so it can't be tracked any longer.
This is one book I won't rush out to purchase...unless of course I need a book to put under the leg of the dining room table to level it.
I just couldn't give him my money.
Just the sample of the book is just a bunch of shallow fluff. And when he saids that God needs to visit, I hope he is referring to the Holy Spirit.
I will go to the bookstore & look it over maybe but I won't ever buy it. Based on Steve's actions, he already doesn't care who or Who is there. Just as long as things are done his way & the money flows into his bank account.
May God have mercy on his soul.
If any of you have insomnia, please read Mike Bratton's blog, the Bratton report...BORING.
He complains about this blog but he wouldn't have anything to say with out this blog. He is guilty of the very same thing he says people here are guilty of.
gmommylv,
I sent you an e-mail on the 22nd. Did you get it, or shall I try again? I may have done something wrong...
preacherdude,
Mike who?
;o)
tn__lizzie2000 said,
"Mike who?"
LOL
I don't remember. :)
tn_lizzie....You are sharp today!!!!
BTW...did you get the email I sent you on Monday? :)
"Mike who?"
Heard he LEFT town....Still blogging about us tho,,,,Must be boring in Alabama.....
concernedSBCer, Aww. Thanks.
I did get the email you sent me on Monday, but I'm not quite through reading it all yet! (Just kidding!)
I wrote you a very long response, just found it saved for spell-checking, and just this moment sent it on to you!
The fact is, God is the God who is there regardless if no one shows up and gathers in His name. "In the beginning, God..." He needs nothing from man. If men don't praise Him, He'll raise rocks up to shout His praises. The question isn't whether or not God shows up, it's if YOU show up. He doesn't go anywhere...He WAS, before WE were...quite content and blessed within Himself.
Lwood said...
Must be boring in Alabama.....
Well, we all know those folks in Alabama know how to do church right much better than the folks in Memphis, right? :)
AllofGrace......You are so right. We don't have to wait for Him to show up....He's already here.
lwood said
"Mike who?"
Heard he LEFT town....Still blogging about us tho,,,,Must be boring in Alabama....
Piglet says:
Poor souls in Alabama. :(
Karen,
I e-mailed you!
rod said:
"SATAN OPERATES IN THE SPHERE OF EMOTIONS! God tell us to renew our MINDS. We need to know what the Bible says, cover to cover and all in context. The emotional side of man is his most shallow and vulnerable side and it is constantly changing. This is where satan works on the believers who do not know the scriptures. This is very dangerous grounds."
You want to know where Satan is most active, it is in the framework of the Christian reilgion. II Cor. 11:13-15
You have contributed to the perversion of Satan that he would like us all to think he is omni-present and omniscient when in fact he doesn't even know your or my name. He has legions of messengers (demons) who know us and report back to one of his spiritual rulers.
This is where Satan works on the believers who do not know the scriptures. This is very dangerous ground.
God works in the realm of body, soul and spirit sanctifying us wholly, individually in all of us at the same time! Satan is so limited and not as great as exalted by Christians.
Amazingly someone will reply to me for undermining Satan's evil scheme.
Seems as though I've read that Rick Warren has made so much from sales of "The Purpose Driven Life" that he stopped taking a salary from his church and paid them back for all his previous years of salary. So look at the bright side ... if SG's book becomes an international best seller, maybe one day BBC won't need to use member's tithes & offerings to pay his salary!
Oh, watchinghisstory, you are always such a jokester! :)
Watchinghistory said:
This is where Satan works on the believers who do not know the scriptures. This is very dangerous ground.
Is this not the basis for bringing in the unchurched and getting rid of the knowledgable and discerning crowd? The trouble makers follow scripture, the unchurched will swallow anything.
Those that don't know scripture will truly believe the statement "God shows off" rather than being repulsed by it.
Hello, "Why is the question?"
For the third time I ask ... Tell me the truth ... have you posted on this blog before under another name that has been asked or told by the blog administrator here to stop posting on this blog?
Junk asked
Hello, "Why is the question?"
For the third time I ask ... Tell me the truth ... have you posted on this blog before under another name that has been asked or told by the blog administrator here to stop posting on this blog?
Lily replies:
Who cares, please ignore such ramblings.
standfirm: Even though I do not agree with you on alot of fronts, but I do agree with a great deal in your first post. I have never said that people cannot have "issues", "concerns", etc, but this blog and the stuff on it is not of Christ. It does not glorify Christ in any way. If you have convictions, stand up and be counted. I am not saying to make an ugly scene or do something crazy.
Hi, john mark arminius!!
jm
There is no place in the Bible that says that Satan is omniscient or omnipresent. Why would you even ask?
II Cor 12:7 a messenger of Satan was sent to harass Paul. Satan makes periodic appearances (garden of eden, Job and Jesus etc.), though he roams to and fro throughout the earth, implying that he is limited. Sorry to disappoint you.
BTW Why would no one challenge rod and then everyone challenges me when I fail to exalt Satan?
I exalt Christ!
Hope for the Future, Inc. is an Alabama corporation. Steve Gaines is the incorporator and Registered Agent. The principle address is listed as Gardendale, Alabama. This corporation has not filed a Certificate of Authority to do business in Tennessee.
Where are the proceeds going? Under what new corporation? Based on the past behaviors of the Gaines, I am sure they could care less as long as the profits hit one of their bank accounts.
It's all about the money, not about Christianity, Scripture, morals, etc. only $$$$$
witq....
I am impressed that you have the insight to instruct all of us as to what is 'of Christ.'
No, thank you. That comment is trite and shallow. I guess you can claim some divine revelation or a deeper understanding of the Word. Either is self serving and would suggest you are superior to those of us who see the glass half full.
"why is the question",
Never mind my question. Lily says it doesn't matter and that I shouldn't talk to you.
eprov: The Bible is clear. Regarding the rest of your post, i have no clue what you are talking about.
Why said: i have no clue what you are talking about.
Duh? We know.
Lily!
How come you can talk to WITQ and I can't??
Junk
I'm sorry, it does border on communication, but I classified it as just an observance, not a direct response! ;}
Lily...I wasn't even making an "observance", much less a "direct response"! I had been trying to get a response to my question for days. The fact that I keep getting ignored when I ask it ought to tell us all something, though, huh?
Ephesians 6:12 (King James Version)
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
The hierarchy of evil streaches a long way before we reach Satan. His kingdom is everywhere we are as representatives of Satan.
Don't forget that the weapons of our warfare are mighty through God!!!
Junk said: The fact that I keep getting ignored when I ask it ought to tell us all something, though, huh?
Lily replies: Quite an observance!
junk,
Be advised that "witq" doesn't answer questions!!!!!! I won't tell you what he is because NASS has asked us to refrain from using that word. However there was no mention of not using the word's definition. So here it is.
In Internet terminology, a ***** is someone who intentionally posts derogatory or otherwise inflammatory messages about sensitive topics in an established online community such as an online discussion forum to bait users into responding.
Charlie,
I guess I should get in my fishin' boat, turn on the trolling motor, and just float on by ...
No junk, stroll on by.
Oh, thanx junk. Now I've gotta clean the spewed root beer out of my keyboard!!!!!!!
RECOMMENDED READING:
'The Power of His Presence'
(copyright 1995, by Adrian Rogers)
This wonderful reading exposes "When God shows off" and the rest of that book for what it really is - [insert your own descrption]
Charlie Fox has mail!
Hi Amy! Glad to see you!
amy,
Back at cha.
"When God Comes to Church" vs. "The Power of His Presence"
Just the titles alone indicate trash vs. treasure.
lily said...
"Hope for the Future, Inc. is an Alabama corporation. Steve Gaines is the incorporator and Registered Agent. The principle address is listed as Gardendale, Alabama. This corporation has not filed a Certificate of Authority to do business in Tennessee.
Where are the proceeds going? Under what new corporation? Based on the past behaviors of the Gaines, I am sure they could care less as long as the profits hit one of their bank accounts.
It's all about the money, not about Christianity, Scripture, morals, etc. only $$$$$"
Sad, but true. Steve Gaines' corporation in AL sold books to the Bellevue bookstore legally for a profit. In turn, the bookstore sells to the membership for a profit. Don't ya wish we could all double dip??
This is a little off topic but .. Anyone else notice that our Pastor did not highlight being used by the Lord to rescue hell-bound souls from eternal damnation as a motivation for evangelism in his Sunday evening sermon on April 22?
open,
WHAT did he say was his motivation?
Astounded,
If you are lurking, I left you a comment on the April 14 thread.
Hope for Your Future, Inc. 2005 Form 990
NASS,
The most interesting thing on that tax form was the declaration that our pastor spends 20 hours per week on Hope For Your Future. I would estimate the Senior Pastor of BBC should spend a minimum of 50 hours each week working for the church, for a total of 70 hours of work each week. If he would cut out his extracurricular business, he could devote that extra time to his children, which should free him up to preach every Wednesday night. Considering he is already paid a rip-roaring ton of money, he can do without the cash he got from HFYF, Inc.
Satan is getting a lot of credit lately for creating this mess.
Just a thought and suggestion.....NOTHING is happening that is not being personally directed by God himself.
The church, BBC is being judged for committing adultery with the WORLD. BABYLON. (EZ 23:17)
You can see this in EZ 22,23,24. Don't make the mistake of assuming that this prophecy has been fulfilled. It has not in my opinion. Simply take your Bible and look at the references taking you from these chapters to Jeremiah (not fulfulled either in my opinion) and especially the references taking you to Revelations.
We spend a lot of time on what is happening to
BBC. We cant' blame it on satan, that is just an excuse. We need to understand what we have done to incur God's affliction, judgement and rod of correction to be able to adjust our course and get back on the path.
We can continue to turn to man (Egypt) and flesh to save us from ourselves or we can turn back to God and humble ourselves, throw ourselves at his feet and ask for mercy.
A friend of mine asked me if anyone noticed the comment that SG made in his Sunday evening April 22 sermon about being nervous around seminary presidents?
Wonder what is up with that?
SOTL,
Maybe he is concerned that if one seminary prez sais he should resign, others might agree. :)
Junkster,
I think you're on to somethin!!
SOTL,
"Junkster", I like that nickname!!
onetwothree test
ezekial
We spend a lot of time on what is happening to
BBC. We cant' blame it on satan, that is just an excuse. We need to understand what we have done to incur God's affliction, judgement and rod of correction to be able to adjust our course and get back on the path.
I agree with what you have said except that I would say " we can't blame it all on Satan" Satan and his dominion bears an influence on believewrs that causes the Church to incur God's wrath. The World, flesh and Satan are enemies of the Gospel.
The tangling of the web:
Our dear pastor is spending 20 hrs per week on his other business and his wife is spending 15 hrs per week, no wonder he can't preach on Wed nights!
His contributions on line 43A is 1,430. (Is this their 10% tithe?)
Steve-income for 20 hrs was $12,500
Donna-income for 15 hrs was $7,200
Salary income $19,700 not including the income from sales,etc
Are they really giving 10%, as they expect staff to...or you won't be on staff anymore!!!
sheepless,
Someone brought to my attention that the only time SG preaches is when he is on tv or the radio. What does this tell you?
ezekiel,
God has a perfect will and a permissive will. I know God is in total control and nothing happens that he does not allow, but we have to pay the price sometimes for bad choices.
The President of the United States has his IRS forms out for the world to see. We know how much he makes and how much he gives. Why is it that Steve Gaines is so secretive about how much he makes and how much he gives? I would think he would shout about his giving from the rooftops since he has demanded the highest standards of giving from the flock, being the good example he is, of course.
Mom4, Perhaps SG started with the wrong button? See what I'm talking about in today's Keys for Kids!
I didn't see Dayna Street's name listed on the Hope for your Future form. Did I miss it? Does she still work for them too? Also, the address is wrong on the form. I did a Shelby County Register search and while I won't print the correct address or the appraisal amount of the home, take my word for it, the address on the form is incorrect.
karen
Isn't it ironic that Tax records with employer Id #'s and address are a matter of public record for anyone to obtain, but.........
We as Bellevue members cannot be a membership directory, Copy of Church by-laws, minutes of board of directors meetings, or HAVE A CHURCH BUSINESS MEETING WITHOUT IT BEING "MONKEY BUSINESS MEETING".
Standfirm,
I'm with you, it is time for ACTION!!!
Too few good men have been bearing the responsibility and burden of trying to get answers..it is time for us all to join forces, suit up and go into battle.
offline for awhile
Anyone that wants my email can get it from NASS if NASS knows and trusts that person. (no strollers)
10:00 AM, April 26, 2007
Karen wrote:
"Also, the address is wrong on the form. I did a Shelby County Register search and while I won't print the correct address or the appraisal amount of the home, take my word for it, the address on the form is incorrect."
Other than having the "South" part on the end instead of the beginning, which is the way the USPS lists it, I don't see a problem. Check it here if you're interested.
New BBC Open Forum said...
Karen wrote:
"Also, the address is wrong on the form. I did a Shelby County Register search and while I won't print the correct address or the appraisal amount of the home, take my word for it, the address on the form is incorrect."
Other than having the "South" part on the end instead of the beginning, which is the way the USPS lists it, I don't see a problem. Check it here if you're interested.
REPLY:
NASS, you are correct. When I searched the Shelby County Assessor's Office website, that is what I got. Also checked another source and got the same address.
Tom Leatherwood - Shelby Co Register of Deeds website shows the property as Valley, not Creek. Maybe they are wrong.
karen
Ok, it's official - I have gone insane! Ignore anything I've posted today. You're right, I'm just insane! >:{
I still don't see Dayna Street's name on the form - her name was on the form in Alabama. Or am I still feeling the effects of the insane pills I took this morning?
karen
Perhaps a better question to ask is..
Why on earth do you even care whose name was on a form 990 from 2 years ago... when.. well... Steve Gaines was STILL IN BIRMINGHAM...
I mean... seriously. Grasp at straws much???
SpringerSpaniel said...
Perhaps a better question to ask is..
Why on earth do you even care whose name was on a form 990 from 2 years ago... when.. well... Steve Gaines was STILL IN BIRMINGHAM...
I mean... seriously. Grasp at straws much???
What I was wondering is is this - Dayna Street is the daughter of the Caldwells - Mrs. Caldwell was on the Pastor Search Committee; Mr. Caldwell has been on the Deacon Approval Committee (not the actual name) and was one of the infamous four who scaled the fence. Dayna used to work for Steve and Donna in Alabama. I'm just wondering if she works for them now that they are in Memphis. What's "grasping at straws" about that?
karen
I have a question about the Form - if Hope for your Future is doing business at the Gaines home address, how come the business phone number is Bellevue's main number (page 7)?
karen
Springer said...
Why on earth do you even care whose name was on a form 990 from 2 years ago... when.. well... Steve Gaines was STILL IN BIRMINGHAM...
Steve came to Memphis in Sept. 2005 - he wasn't in BIRMINGHAM when he filed this Form.
I agree, Karen. It was a simple question that I wondered about myself. No point in people getting all out of joint about it. Unless her husband left her in Alabama when he moved here and was hired by Bellevue, Dayna Street is here now, too. Perhaps she was just helping the Gaineses get it off the ground. Who knows? People come and people go. I'm sure there's a logical (and non-sinister) reason she's no longer listed as an officer. Believe it or not, "springerspaniel," not all questions are loaded. Sometimes they're just... questions.
NASS,
Exactly, I'm just asking because I knew Dayna was the secretary of the company in Alabama - seems she still would be now, but things change. Funny how you can't even ask a question anymore.
Sorry about that confusion earlier - I don't know what I thought I was reading.
karen
Karen said...
...Funny how you can't even ask a question anymore.
...
karen
Yeah... isn't it funny that since most all questions on here are filled with innuendo or said with a wink and a nod or asked in a sarcastic manner... that a question would be taken that way.
If Gaines and Co. were more upfront and honest with the congregation, no one would have any questions or suspicious of his motives.
That is interesting about the home address but Bellevue's phone number.
Lynn
ss,
Why don't you just go back to that other blog and bash us there? We don't need it here.
springer spaniel said:
" a wink and a nod"
hmmm, thinking................
You mean, Kinda like when PW told SG that he was a child predator, and SG, " with a wink and a nod" allowed him to stay on staff?
And also, " with a wink and a nod" gave him a raise?
Ok, just wondering, making sure we all are on the same page.
Thanks
As for the phone number on the 990, I can think of two reasons for that.
1. Typically the IRS wants a daytime phone number, so that would be the logical one to give them.
2. I think the Gaineses have an unlisted home number and knowing this form would be publicly available, perhaps they chose not to put their home number on it.
Or maybe it's a conspiracy! Lynn's right that if there had been more openness and integrity in the leadership before, there wouldn't be so many questions now, but at the same time, please don't try to read too much into everything you read.
springer spaniel said...
Yeah... isn't it funny that since most all questions on here are filled with innuendo or said with a wink and a nod or asked in a sarcastic manner... that a question would be taken that way.
No, it's not funny at all that a pastor and his cronies climb over a fence to "reconcile" with a brother
It's not funny when said brother is called "hezbollah" by said pastor
It's not funny when the pastor lies about having a dream
It's not funny when the pastor's daughter's cheerleading camp is paid from church funds
It's not funny when the pastor abuses the church direct bill policy (twice if not more)
It's not funny when $25,000 isn't prayed over and given to an apostate church
It's not funny when 2 supposedly respectable lay leaders of the church go to confront the president of MABTS and tell him Steve Gaines isn't bound by Matthew 18 and get rebuked and thrown out of the president's office (actually that part IS funny!)
It's not funny that the former pastor of our church is locked out of his office
It's not funny that Steve Gaines didn't know any better that to throw a pedophile out of the church on his ear
It's not funny that we have to have an Administrative Pastor run around town making nice with LifeChoices and MABTS due to Steve Gaines sticking his foot in his own mouth
It's not funny that Steve Gaines inlaws were rude to BBC members during the "monkey business meeting"
It's not funny that at 15 year old girl gets cussed at and handcuffed by a security guard at BBC
It's not funny, is it??
karen
Here's an interesting tidbit:
On March 25th it was announced from the pulpit that 1558 people had joined Bellevue in the past year. It's my understanding that this was for the year beginning March 1, 2006 and running through February 28, 2007.
Now it's been admitted to by a highly-placed staff member that was a mistake. The actual number was 1289. This is a "mistake" of 269 people (or about 21%). How do you just create 269 people? Not that there should even be a "margin of error" in counting the number of people who join the church, but if there were, I think 21% would be way outside that margin. This isn't rocket science, is it?
It will be interesting to see if this error is corrected by the leadership in any way or if it will just be allowed to stand. If so, will it be from the pulpit? Now that it's known a mistake was made, if it's not corrected, is it still a mistake... or something else?
It's a mistake of the head, not the heart NASS. (wink, nod) It will probably be at the back of the bulletin somewhere and no one will really care. Which isn't funny either.
I like your explation of the daytime phone number - makes sense, but I can't help but be suspicious based on past blunders/behaviors.
karen
It seems odd that they are so far off given that theres usually a paper trail for each new member. (The forms you fill out when you first join).
And Karen, your right, you cannot help but be suspicious given past history. BTW, I just sent you an e-mail. :).
Lynn
It appears that the definition below fits "springerspaniel" also.
In Internet terminology, a ***** is someone who intentionally posts derogatory or otherwise inflammatory messages about sensitive topics in an established online community such as an online discussion forum to bait users into responding.
No, Charlie... I can occasionally be tolerable. I'm certainly not trying to "Bait" anyone into responding... just pointing out certain things the way I see them.
Like I said way back when... less sniping and less snark would go a LONG way towards validating the opinions on this board to people who don't regularly frequent this board.
But when you come here and all you see are accusations and the latest "did you see what Steve did this time" type of posts... well... it just looks bitter and ugly.
But, I must say that not everyone is like that.
And yes, I admit that I do that exact thing myself at times myself.
Anyways, if my post was out of line, remove it. Otherwise, just leave it up and let people either ignore me, see how utterly stupid they think I am or perhaps say hey... this makes just a little bit of sense. Not much, mind you, but a little.
Besides... I've had a HORRIBLE week... I'm entitled to make dumb posts.
ss,
Thank you for an honest response.
To All:
Let it be known the "bob barker" used the "T" word and not me.
SpringerSpaniel said...
Yeah... isn't it funny that since most all questions on here are filled with innuendo or said with a wink and a nod or asked in a sarcastic manner... that a question would be taken that way.
No question mark, but gramatically, that looks like a question to me. Does it fall into the same category as "most all questions" on this blog? Oh, I just asked a question, does that one qualify? Or that one?? Ohhhhh.... arrrggghhhh ....
SpringerSpaniel said...
Besides... I've had a HORRIBLE week... I'm entitled to make dumb posts.
Sorry you've had a rough week, bro. God will see you through.
But you know I gotta ask ... does the bad year or so that a lot of the folks on this blog have had due to the problems at BBC entitle them to make what you'd call dumb posts, too?
OK, Junk... now my head is spinning...
"There is no place in the Bible that says that Satan is omniscient or omnipresent. "
I agree he is not omniscient or omnipresent.
In the book of John he is referred to as the 'ruler of this world' 3 times.
witq: "eprov: The Bible is clear."
Have you mentioned this to Steve Gaines?
If Steve Gaines and his leadership force wouldn't give me so much ammunition, I would stop blasting them. Until they come clean with the membership on all issues discuessed here on this blog, I won't stop holding their feet to the fire.
karen
The answer to 82a is interesting given where phone rings when one dials 91a on the Form 990
I wonder what the requirements are to place an “X” in box number 5 of Part IV “Reason for Non-Private Foundation Status”.
Box 5 seems to indicate Hope for Your Future, Inc. is a church as the box reads:
“A Church, convention of churches, or association of churches.”
Part III Statement of services also seems to supports this.
“Achievement of arganization (sic) is to lead individuals to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ through evangelism, personal witnessing, and proclamation fo (sic) the word of God.
Is HFYF a church?
bw,
Two very good points.
karen
Without details, let's not speculate - we've done that before and it's bitten us in our collective hineys (can I say that?)
karen
Karen
Girl go wash your mouth out with soap.......Just joking.... Hope you are doing o.k.
Did hear this from a good source. Just thought more in the know might have heard something....
karen,
I e-mailed you. :)
I heard a VERY powerful quote "He who accepts evil without protesting against it, is really cooperating with it".
This quote comes from Wendi Thomas of the Commercial Appeal. While she was talking about rap music....That quote can apply to this situation here.
openinquiry said...
"This is a little off topic but .. Anyone else notice that our Pastor did not highlight being used by the Lord to rescue hell-bound souls from eternal damnation as a motivation for evangelism in his Sunday evening sermon on April 22"
2000 BF&M states:
"as a committee, we have been charged to address the "certain needs" of our own generation. In an age increasingly hostile to Christian truth, our challenge is to express the truth as revealed in Scripture, and to bear witness to Jesus Christ, who is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life."
In 1963 and 2000 the words "certain needs" are used as ambiguous and obscure wording that should not be used in a formal statement to convey truth. A lawyer might use such words as a future loophole for a double meaning.
The effectiveness of our evangelism is not in addressing the 'certain needs' of our generation because of the hostility it might see in our gospel but the hostility is itself the message of the Scriptures. The chief cornerstone is a stumbling block to the unbelieving sinner.
The SBC saw this seeker friendly language as a path of modern evangelism. In a day when conservatives were repulsed at Elvis' gyrations the SBC was preparing for when those same gyrations would be a part of non-hostile evangelism.
openinquiry, you may be on to something and not off-topic at all!
Lwood said...
Just heard that May 6 is going to be a big day in the life of BBC..Anyone heard anything on what is going to take place on that particular day.....I did not get any details just that it was going to be big......
Hey! Maybe God's coming to church!!
Man, I gotta get my suit pressed...
Thats not even an original title! Someone came out with a book with that same title 7 Years Ago!
We have another correction of the number of people who joined BBC last year. Announced from the pulpit as 1558, now the number is 1314, the time period is February 1, 2006 to January 31, 2007, and a correction is supposed to be printed in Sunday's Bellevue Today as well as shown on the IMAG before the services. While not an announcement from the pulpit, this is certainly a commendable step in the right direction.
charlie fox wrote:
"I won't tell you what he is because NASS has asked us to refrain from using that word."
Where'd you get the idea that word was banned here? I don't recall that. You must have been thinking of another word. Sometimes this one is just right.
New BBC Open Forum said...
charlie fox wrote:
"I won't tell you what he is because NASS has asked us to refrain from using that word."
Where'd you get the idea that word was banned here? I don't recall that. You must have been thinking of another word. Sometimes this one is just right.
REPLY:
OOPS, another mistake of the mind. As long as it hasn't been banned then: TROLL, TROLL, TROLL, TROLL, TROLL, TROLL. I feel much better now. Thanx, NASS!!!!
Lwood said...
Just heard that May 6 is going to be a big day in the life of BBC..Anyone heard anything on what is going to take place on that particular day.....I did not get any details just that it was going to be big......
Could it be the nominations for speakers at the SBC?? Some time back someone mentioned they might try to slip this or something else in on us since they will have to have nominations approved by the congregation before the convention, in June I think.
Just thinkin!
As an outside observer to SBC history as it relates to the current situation at BBC, I think I may have some interesting opinions.
30 years ago the greatest battle was over the Bible's inspiration and inerrancy. This seems to be the cause of the conservative resurrgence and volumes have been written in defense of the Bible's authority. The SBC reclaimed the dominance of Fundamentalism over liberalism.
Yet when you study the 1963 and 2000 BF&M there is a sentence added to the 1925 statement: All Scripture is a testimony to Christ who is himself the focus of divine revelation. (a slight change over the 1963 statement) In both statements the words: "God's revelation of Himself to man" is added to the first 1925 sentence.
80 years ago this was the BF&M Statement on salvation:
"The salvation of sinners is wholly of grace, through the mediatorial office of the Son of God, who by the Holy Spirit was born of the Virgin Mary and took upon him our nature, yet without sin; honored the divine law by his personal obedience and made atonement for our sins by his death. Being risen from the dead, he is now enthroned in Heaven, and, uniting in his person the tenderest sympathies with divine perfections, he is in every way qualified to be a compassionate and all-sufficient Saviour."
In 1963 and 2000 the words: "Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour." There is a theological leap from the statement: "The salvation of sinners is wholly of Grace.." God centered gospel over a man centered gospel. Yet no volumes have been written about this to my knowledge.
This makes me assume that (JMO) the battle for the Bible was a smoke screen for transitioning from a New Hampshire Confession gospel to a seeker friendly gospel.
It was more about evangelism than inerrancy. The current situation at BBC is the reflection of the SBC's focus on manipulative power rather than theology.
Evangelistic posturing took precedence over theology. SG message on Evangelism, April 22, was about posturing in the SBC leadership.
JD said...
Lwood said...
Just heard that May 6 is going to be a big day in the life of BBC..Anyone heard anything on what is going to take place on that particular day.....I did not get any details just that it was going to be big......
Hey! Maybe God's coming to church!!
Man, I gotta get my suit pressed...
7:44 PM, April 26, 2007
Hey...... You might be right they are really working to get the numbers up.....What better way..
I don't have a clue but was told this this afternoon....
whs,
Do you have ANYTHING GOOD to say about the SBC?
WHS,
Sir, with all due respect, I think you should focus a little less on how you received God's grace and more on what you're going to do with it.
JMO
cf
The New Hampshire was a good confession though not Calvinistic enough for me. Before 1925 it was a great church!
jd
son, I'm rejoicing daily in how God received me. His stedfast love is new every day!!
May 6th is Missions Emphasis Day at BBC.
WatchingHISstory said...
cf
The New Hampshire was a good confession though not Calvinistic enough for me. Before 1925 it was a great church!
REPLY:
You must hang out with the Founders Ministries bunch.
cf
my name is also Charles
thx for the compliment!
off-line
A trucker at a rest stop (that I've been sleeping behind) is letting me use his computer, so I'll only get to post once.
The Squire has had some transmission trouble during my traveling these last 5 days (It wouldn't shift out of first gear).
But I'm starting to make good time.
I should be on the south side of Grenada, Ms. by tomorrow. With a good tail wind, Jackson will be in my sights by week's end.
I'm a little light-headed though after donating blood (3 times this week) for gas and canned meat snacks, and for some reason, there appears to be a circus clown following me...that doesn't concern me nearly as much as the polar bear he's riding.
Well, Big Otis, the semi-kind and rebel flag tatooed trucker is threatening to do some things to me (that seem physically impossible) if I don't hand over the computer, so good night.
William T. Loney, MD
PS...When a Mississippi Rest Stop security guard asks 'can I help you?', what he really means is 'do you mind if I beat you ferociously in the lower abdominal area with a piece of rebarb that fell off of a trucker's rig, until you cough up what can only be identified as fragments of vital organs?' Don't ask me how I know.
Yes! Thank you Dr. Loney!
Just what the (fraudulent) doctor ordered.
Doc,
are you sure those 'vital organs' aren't canned meat? Look the same, don't they?
Do you really want to know what is happening at Bellevue Baptist Church?
Go to: integritydoescount.com
click on events and read the time line thoroughly.
Interesting additions to the IDC timeline imo. I wonder how much of scripture the following attitude covers? Everything but tithing? Hmmm...?
______
DECEMBER 2006
Steve Gaines meets with Paul Williams’ son and two of his friends. The men ask Bro. Steve his opinion of what scripture says about the qualifications of being a minister pertaining to Paul Williams and the sexual abuse. In this meeting, Steve refers to 1 Timothy and Titus as “just guidelines.” He states that “if we really held to that standard, we wouldn’t have any ministers.”
Excerpt from:
http://intergritydoes
count.com/faq.html
WatchingHISstory said...
As an outside observer to SBC history as it relates to the current situation at BBC, I think I may have some interesting opinions.
I read your statements and all I can say is that you are wrong... You do not have interesting comments. As you said yourself, that you are an outsider. As an insider, myself, you couldn't be more wrong. The battle for inerrancy of scriptures was one of the most important battles that could be raised. For without inerrancy of scriptures, nothing would have mattered.
I acknowledge that there is posturing for position within the SBC & every other denomination, but please stop trying to find conspiricy theories in the SBC. Not everyone is looking for a position in the SBC. Most pastors are faithful, godly men who serve God out of a pure heart with pure motives.
What are you motives, outsider??? You seem more loyal to your confessions of faith than the Author of our faith.
I wonder how much of scripture the following attitude covers? Everything but tithing? Hmmm...?
Excellent question. I think we're seeing evidence of the (disturbing) answer to that question.
Today is Friday, but Sunday is coming.
Does everybody have a place to be Sunday around 10am? :o)
Weather Forecast:
Mainly sunny. Highs in the low 80s and lows in the mid 50s.
Wanna meet at a park and worship? There are 10 people so far (kids included) E-mail me... :o)
Last week there was a rumor about Ken Whitten (about whom I know nothing) being on GBC's short list of candidates for their pastor. Someone just sent me this information from his current church's website:
Mission Statement
Membership Information
Since when do you have to complete a "class" to join a Baptist church? And don't remind me this practice started under Dr. Rogers' watch. I know it did, and I didn't like it any better then. A and B are all that have ever been required. Now they've added C. Is there a church anywhere that Rick Warren's ideas haven't infiltrated? They even use the same numbers -- 101, 301, etc. and that S.H.A.P.E. stuff.
I noticed BBC recently changed the name of theirs from "Discovery Class," which was clearly straight out of RW's playbook, to "New Member 'STEP'" class. (All I can think of when I see that is "step aerobics.")
Okay, I just looked at their staff page, and it was a water-spitting moment. I'm not sure the significance of the white shirts, but all I could think of was they look like prison inmates -- happy prison inmates, but inmates nevertheless. And the only black staff minister is wearing a black shirt? Please tell me that was just an oversight on someone's part!
25 and Socwork,
I am with you. Compromise. It works in marriages, it works in business, it even works in education, sometimes. But it never works with the Word. When one compromises with the Word of God, that one sins. Period. Isn't this what the whole BBC/Steve Gaines thing is about? A dream here, a fence there, a wink at a pedophile, questionable financial dealings, secrecy, intimidation, etc. When you compromise with the Word you are having an affair with the devil.
And one more thing, how threatening can a 15 yr old girl be? What threat could she possibly pose? Was she going to overpower security and pummel Gaines? No. And nobody thought she would. Like everything else lately,(such as the 'business' meeting) it was a show. It shows that if you are suspected of not marching in step, you will be squashed. Nice message. Great testimony. Wonderful spirit.
Just My Unhumble Opinion.
OC.
NASS,
Step away from the computer - you have gone over to the dark place. Come toward the light, NASS! :)
I seriously doubt there's a significance to the white shirt thing - except for cohesion of the webpage. One guy's got a blue shirt - doesn't make him Blue Man Group? BTW, in Karen's unsolicited opinion Ronnie Upton (their worship leader) is STILL a cutie-patootie! He was when he went to BBC and he still is. As a side note, he's Paula Threlkeld's brother - you can see effects of good DNA! :)
Also, as far as a Discovery Class goes, in my opinion, it's beneficial to the new member. I really don't think it's a REQUIREMENT for membership as much as a tool to help the new member get assimilated to the church activities. Rob Mullins was hired at GBC to do this ministry, so I suggest asking him if it's a requirement for membership.
karen
preacherdude777 said:
" As an insider, myself, you couldn't be more wrong. The battle for inerrancy of scriptures was one of the most important battles that could be raised. For without inerrancy of scriptures, nothing would have mattered."
As I have shown, the 1963/2000 BF&M does not reflect the intensity of the battle you speak about. They clarify a distinction/relationship between the living Word and the written Word.
Since you are an insider give me some specifics of the battle you speak about. Who are the SBC presidents, pastors and seminary presidents who were liberals who attacked the conservative theological base of SBC and what biblical beliefs they denied?
Don't forget SG was one of the committee members who help create the 2000 BF&M
Thank you, NASS, for posting the information about Idlewild Baptist. As Christians, HAVE to stay informed. This isn't about personalities, it is about Truth and apostasy. Karen, I love you. But, we can't afford to lighten up any more.
BTY, you we need to be on our toes, watching for Rick Warren's latest catch word. That would be VISION. His new book, 40 Days of Vision comes out in September, and many churches will be buying his book and implimenting his writings. I am told the book will be heavy on mysticism.
A friend went to the annual Seder Supper in Memphis this year. One of the guest speakers addressed the topic of visions, recounting her experiences in this area. If you listen for the word, you will here it being used with increasing frequency.
Listen for the words VISION or VISION CASTING. They are coming to a church near you. BEWARE
I did not know this until asking a staff minister, but the new members’ class is now a requirement for membership at Bellevue. Praying to receive Christ as your savior and being baptized by immersion is NOT enough, according to church policy. You are required to complete the class before you are accepted as a member.
Go to Saddleback’s website and take a look at their CLASS program and see if there are any similarities to Bellevue’s 4-step STEP series.
Another gift from America’s Favorite Pastor, Rick Warren!
churchmouse,
I know you love me and I'm not offended, but really? This is for real? I guess I've been under my "rock of comfort" for too long - are you truly serious? A class is required for membership? I really had no idea about such things. And if I was flip with NASS, I apologize. I thought she was just being over critical. But I'm trying to get my head around this - truly, a CLASS is required for membership? But not to affirm your salvation, right? What if you have been attending BBC for awhile and you're comfortable with knowing where your SS class is, or whatever, they still MAKE YOU take the class before you can be a member? So, is my membership "grandfathered" in, so to speak? What have I missed as a member of BBC or a Christian, for that matter, by not be REQUIRED to take this class? Please don't think I'm making light - I seriously want to know.
Thanks! karen
Karen,
A staff minister explained to me today that this policy has been in place for about eight years. He actually said it was inspired by the book, Purpose Driven Church. No Kidding.
He explained that the original model was a four-class series, but we condensed it into one.
This Discovery Class is now called the STEP class. Bellevue has broken this one class back into four, just like Warren’s model. In our Step Three, the S.T.E.P. initials refer to your S-spiritual gift, T-temperment, E-experiences of life, and finally P-passion.
Rick Warren uses the acrostic SHAPE, but the individual components are basically the same.
Very disturbing.
Just curious, are people encouraged to bring a Bible to the "new membership" class, or is it not necessary.
Q: How do you spot a visitor at Saddleback?
A: The visitors are the ones carrying Bibles.
BBC administration mirrows the strategy of the SBC conservative resurrgence. Powerful minority groups 'elites' determine in closed door, back room, sealed-off hotel floors determine "certain needs". Such was the take over of the SBC from moderates to fundamentalism. It wasn't about theology but power.
Now you are surprised when the same thing happens at BBC. Congregational approval does not exist and has not for a long time.
Those of you who are "insiders" at BBC, loyal devotees of the previous administration, will deny this but believe me "outsiders" have seen it clearly and for a long time.
Karen said...
churchmouse,
I know you love me and I'm not offended, but really? This is for real? I guess I've been under my "rock of comfort" for too long - are you truly serious? A class is required for membership? I really had no idea about such things.
churchmouse replies,
Yes, Bellevue requires a class for membership. The class includes a personality profile of the new member to discover his or her talents or passion. (Or spiritual gifts) Idlewild Church also requires this class.
Karen said,
And if I was flip with NASS, I apologize. I thought she was just being over critical. But I'm trying to get my head around this - truly, a CLASS is required for membership? But not to affirm your salvation, right?
churchmouse replies,
I am not sure if it affirms your salvation. It may do that. Other things are also included, such as the personality profiling. They give you a personality test and cross reference the results on a computer program. Should this information not be between you and God?
Karen said,
What if you have been attending BBC for awhile and you're comfortable with knowing where your SS class is, or whatever, they still MAKE YOU take the class before you can be a member?
churchmouse replies,
When you walk down to the front of the church, you "apply" to join Bellevue. Your membership does not take effect until you take the class. At least, that is how it was explained to me.
Karen asks,
So, is my membership "grandfathered" in, so to speak?
churchmouse replies,
Yes, we are “grandfathered” in.
Karen asks,
What have I missed as a member of BBC or a Christian, for that matter, by not be REQUIRED to take this class? Please don't think I'm making light - I seriously want to know.
churchmouse replies,
I haven’t taken the class, so I don’t know. I did take Dr. Roger’s Pastor’s Discovery Class and sat through it several times. I loved it. It had nothing to do with personality profiling.
churchmouse on her bandbox:
The reason I think this is so serious is this: it isn’t Biblical, it is deceitful, and it is destroying churches all over this country. Rick Warren teaches pastors how to go into a church and uproot the membership to install his own agenda. It is all about marketing and money. These things we see on the Idlewild website are trademarks of a Purpose Driven church, the casual dress, the S.H.A.P.E. classes, and classes required for church membership. They are red flags.
This is another heartbreak for Bellevue members.
The "new member" whatever-they-call-it-now class is a requirement, in addition to having made a profession of faith and being baptized by immersion, for church membership at Bellevue. Unlike in most churches where you can present yourself, say, on promise of letter or statement from a sister church, at Bellevue and an increasing number of churches, you now have to complete a class before you will be accepted for membership. Members who were members before they implemented it were indeed grandfathered in. In the past it was sort of an introduction to Bellevue and really nothing more. They ask people to take the "spiritual gifts" and "temperament" surveys before attending, and they go over those. They talk about some of the areas where members can serve. And there is a loyalty pledge of sorts, but they stop short of asking people to sign it.
Be Still: But, we can't afford to lighten up any more."
Amen, Amen and Amen!!! Apostasy is broad...truth is a narrow road.
"Yes, Bellevue requires a class for membership. The class includes a personality profile of the new member to discover his or her talents or passion."
Most megas have something like this. They have to or people will not get involved and get lost in the crowd. Actually, very few actually attend these classes compared to how many come or join the church. Hence, making it a one day thing. The biggest headache for a mega is getting people to join.
Be Still knows what is going on. If you attend one of these classes you are going to hear more than personality profiles (you really need to do your homework on these and their origins), you will also be trained on how to deal with people who critisize your church...there is subtle teaching on this and the point is: NEVER critisize your church. (Keep in mind that ANY disagreement even in doctrine or questioning anything is considered divisive) Saddleback used to hve their new members sign something that included this point. You are made to feel like you are divisive and sining if you disagree with anything.
If a new member class taught regeneration, perserverance, assurance or sanctification from scripture, it would be a great thing. But instead, they get people focused on worldly things like personality profiles. (Just imagine Moses telling God that leadership was not his profile...wait... He did! God answered him saying what???.......get it?)
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