On March 25th we were told that over 1500 people have joined Bellevue in the past year. I have obtained the monthly numbers of decisions for 2006 and the first three months of 2007 that include professions of faith, transfer of membership by letter or statement, and "other," which includes all the other reasons people might come forward during an invitation without joining the church. While that 1500+ total for last year is correct, are this year's numbers showing the same trend?
Comparing the first three months of this year to last year we have these numbers -- the total of all decisions for each month:
January 2006 - 174 (POF-52, Letter-80, Statement-27, Other-15)
January 2007 - 67 (POF-26, Letter-22, Statement-16, Other-3)
February 2006 - 126 (POF-43, Letter-44, Statement-28, Other-11)
February 2007 - 80 (POF-32, Letter-18, Statement-18, Other-12)
March 2006 - 104 (POF-43, Letter-34, Statement-20, Other-11)
March 2007 - 29 (POF-11, Letter-9, Statement-6, Other-3)
Every decision for Christ is cause for celebration, and we should in no way minimize any decision based upon total numbers. Numbers can sometimes be one factor in measuring the health of a church. Often they're not, but the leadership of BBC seems to like to use numbers to make the point that all is well at Bellevue. So what can we conclude from the numbers given above?
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«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 651 Newer› Newest»Does anyone remember reading/hearing that there is an alloted amount in the ministry's salary budget and the Sr Pastor has the full authority to pay anyone, any amount he wants, as long as it does not exceed the total budget?
With this in mind, if 3 ministers leave they could be replaced with 1 minister and that minister be paid the entire salary of the 3 if SG so chooses.
Another scenario, Steve Gaines could choose to increase his own salary by any amount he desires. Remember, he is loosing a lot of income from his being cancelled on so many other preaching engagements (Wed nights and other times.)
All that is transpiring at BBC could have been orchestrated from the very beginning, thus another reason for refusing to open the books to members, as required by Tennessee State Law.
sheepless,
re: game show
You need to add Steve Marcum's name to the list. He went wtih phil weatherwax to deliver the homo/abortion check to the apostate church.
teri,
since it involved 2 other moms that shared it with me, it is not my place to give the details.
Neither of those moms blog.....
You could ask Greg H. ...
Of course,GH did not tell the truth when the 19 year old (who would probably be happy to share because he is very straight forward)asked GH a direct question...
and when the moms (in 2 separate conversations) pointed out to him that they knew he had not told the truth... he first changed his story, then rationalized,
then when caught and no way out.....he said "he knew in his heart he was a man of integrity and truth".....
that is the script leadership defaults to AFTER trying to instill fear of questioning "authority" doesn't work.
The fear tactic did not work on this gutsy kid.
In the end,the youth told the minister exactly what GH had taught him......a lie of ommission is the same as a lie of commission...
I guess I gave more than enough details!
The mom of the youth is not one to back down from wrong....she just doesn't blog.
I will ask her to forgive me for taking such liberties today.
sheep,
did you get your email from me?
gmommylv:
Thank you!
Besides my commitment to service for a few more weeks, my younger 'youth' is the main reason I haven't started visiting elsewhere. (love my SS class, but I no longer attend service)
The young one is devastated by the idea of pulling up roots, and speaks a lot of forgiveness. She has -just recently- begun to ask her own questions, and is finally interested in discussion.
Any insight that helps me understand who is speaking what in the student area is definitely appreciated.
SOTL,
Got it..will be there
In response to gmommylv’s post regarding the conversation with Greg Hauss…I ran into him at the gym and asked him about the ending of the so called “business meeting”. I was told that the ending was not staged and the man who made the motion for adjournment was not part of any plan. It was the next day I found out about the meeting where DC admitted there was a plan all along to end after 45 miutes and there were 2-3 deacons in place to make the motion. On Monday of this week I talked once again with the youth pastor and he explained that although he knew of the plan in place to end the meeting at the time he talked with me, he didn’t know that particular man was one of the 2-3 deacons called upon to do it. I reminded him that he, along with the Phil Newberry, had taught that a sin of omission was as great as a sin of commission. I believe it was once again word games instead of complete truth. It was disappointing, to say the least, to see this in this particular man. I fully believed all along that the meeting was staged and ended abruptly because a plan had been in place. It would have been nice for this minister to have just said that instead of denying it because he wasn’t aware that particular man was involved. He knew the truth to be that the meeting was staged to end the way it did regardless of which deacon got up to bring the motion.
Well, I have refrained from posting but Brandon, I must interject and add what I think is an important part of the story- Gregg did make the effort to call YOU specifically to correct this misinformation. I do think he was making an effort to do the right thing in that case.
He may have not answered as fully as some would have liked, but I do think that it means something that he called to apologize for it and correct it.
But thanks for clarifying the story :)
teri,
It is traumatic for many of us to actually go out there looking for a new church home. In so many ways, it is like working thru a death...this is a loss of so many things....not just a building with programs, friends, and ministers in it.
We are grieving,confused,
hurt....trust has been shattered,our history,our memories,our future plans have been taken from us.
As moms,we wanted our children to be brought up in the safest,most scripturally sound church we could find. We loved our pastor and the leadership.
We were blindsided by this nightmare.
This is just my 2 cents... and only you know best how to explain (can we explain this???) what has happened to your children.
Give them a chance to vent or cry but then show them how you have tested what is going on with God's word. Talk to them about fearing God and being obedient to His word and not putting faith in people.....I am sure you do that and I hate when people tell me"just pray about it" AS IF I don't!
My youngest is 20 and had not gotten thru his grieving for "the giant" we lost.
This take over and betrayal has made him angry and question so many things. He wonders what has been real. I have really felt the need to set the example of not being silent.
These kids don't understand anymore than we do.
But we cannot condone or rationalize any of this to them.
And we cannot teach them the dummied down version of forgiveness.
Without full repentance,brokeness, and consequenses....forgiveness is just a word...and the weight is put on the one wounded...not the one responsible for the wrong.
Believe it or not,I learned that at BBC.
Somehow,we have to show them that standing for truth ,the ONLY truth, is what we must do. So much to teach and explain....the world is bad enough...now the world is in our church.
I now understand that sin has been infiltrating our church for some time.
We know at the very least that a minister was on staff for many years that harbored secret sin.
Horrible sin that affected the lives and health of many. He got away with it. How can the Lord be honored when a man thinks he has pulled something over on God himself...and masks himself as a man of God?
Then when he is forced to confess....he is told his job is safe....all is forgiven.
Not much big picture, scriptural thought in that decision. But yet so many lives have been damaged.
This is not the direction I meant to take but always where I end up.
Had he been taken off staff immediately instead of covered for and given a pay raise....would things be different today??
We began discussing our departure from BBC with our teens during lunch after the business meeting. We laid out just four of the many issues for discussion- protecting a child rapist, lying about not knowing what to do when caught, the check to a pro-abortion church with a woman pastor, and the absolute need for integrity in church leaders. In our discussion, we limited the application of integrity to telling the truth. This was an issue to which they could relate because we stress it in our family. We began by talking about the difference between forgiveness and the consequences of sin, another concept they understood easily. I used the example of a drunk driver killing a pedestrian. Should we forgive him? Absolutely, even if he is unrepentant. Why? Because we have been forgiven so much by a loving God. Does our forgiveness erase the consequences of killing an innocent person? No, but the offending driver should know that he is forgiven and is loved by God while serving his prison sentence.
The next step for us as a family was finding out about SGs admission to shutting down the business meeting. Although we suspected as much on the day of the business meeting, finding out that he told people about having Jim Angel jump up and make a motion to adjourn in order to prevent church members from being heard was too much for us.
Leaving will be easier for us because many friends of our teens have already left. Our visit to GBC on Easter helped us to remember what a church should be like- worshipping in spirit and TRUTH. Someone told me the name of the man who is currently talking with GBC about becoming their new pastor, and if it is true, it will make our decision very easy.
Brandon,
Thank you for posting! You know how proud I am that you have not been afraid to ask several men openly about problems you have seen.
I wonder,did the fact that GH called (I don't know if he apologized or not) did calling make the wrong right??
Not just to Brandon.....are words what matter?
Haven't words been used to deflect and pervert the truth enough?
psalm 43:3,
Excellent post. I especially appreciated that you differentiated between forgiveness, repentance, and consequences.
It certainly makes it easier for us as humans to offer forgiveness when somone is repentant, but Jesus offered forgiveness to His unrepentant tormentors from the cross, and He instructed us to forgive someone 70X7 (the repeat offense a sure sign the person we are forgiving isn't truly repentant). Likewise we can and should forgive even those who are unrepentant. But forgiveness doesn't negate all consequences.
Ohhhhhh....please don't keep us us suspense...who is GBC talking to about becoming their pastor??
psalm 43:3 wrote:
"Ask NASS- she should know."
What???
NASS- you have mail
overflowingrace,
The fact that the business meeting was ended intentionally was stated in public by SG and by others on BBC staff.
Fact.
soc,
Don't confuse overflowing with the facts.
Besides, IT"s not supposed to be posting on here.
gmommy: Your 1:41 post was right on the money, loving, and compassionate. Thank you.
psalm 43:3 wrote:
"Ask NASS- she should know."
NASS knows absolutely nothing about whom GBC may or may not call as their new pastor. I don't even know of anyone they've considered.
Sorry, Nass. My mistake. Let's see what will happen over the next several weeks.
Psalm 51
Create in Me a Clean Heart, O God
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.
1Have mercy on me,[a] O God,
according to your steadfast love;
according to your abundant mercy
blot out my transgressions.
2Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin!
3For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is ever before me.
4Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you may be justified in your words
and blameless in your judgment.
5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being,
and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart.
7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones that you have broken rejoice.
9Hide your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities.
10Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right[b] spirit within me.
11Cast me not away from your presence,
and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
12Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and uphold me with a willing spirit.
13Then I will teach transgressors your ways,
and sinners will return to you.
14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God,
O God of my salvation,
and my tongue will sing aloud of your righteousness.
15O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare your praise.
16For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it;
you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
18Do good to Zion in your good pleasure;
build up the walls of Jerusalem;
19then will you delight in right sacrifices,
in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings;
then bulls will be offered on your altar.
There has been some speculation today that GBC may be close to calling a specific person as their new pastor. I now have it from a reliable source that isn't true. They have reportedly narrowed it down to three candidates, but they want to revise their bylaws before any recommendation is made. (Oh, but that BBC would have had as much forethought.)
They had hoped to have the first draft of the bylaws presented at their business meeting last Sunday, but that didn't happen. There may be a special business meeting called for that purpose before their next regular business meeting in June. (Wow. Bimonthly church business meetings. What a concept!)
Anyway, this same source is saying they probably won't be ready to call someone before August or September.
There is a rumor circulating that Ken Whitten has been chosen. This source did not know whether or not Ken Whitten is even on the short list, but the fact is no one has been offered the job yet.
I guess we can all stay tuned.
I hear Mark Doughtery is looking for a job.
Our family left our beloved BBC a while back. We were heartbroken as we had family ties to BBC as far back as Dr. Lee.
I would like to challenge everyone who has decided they need to make a move to realize the great responsibility we have after sitting under Dr. Rogers and so many other fine teachers through the years. I would challenge you to not just look for a church that will "fit your needs" or "fill all the holes" that are left after leaving BBC. Don't "shop for a church" as you would a pair of shoes, but rather look for a church where you can actively serve the Lord, by using your spiritual gifts and the wisdom you have been taught through the years. We all know that Dr. Rogers used to remind us that we did not need to "sit, soak and sour." Now is our prime oportunity to quit sitting and begin serving.
We were blessed to have been a part of "the glory days," but God may now be calling many of us to places of worship that aren't as beautiful outwardly, that may not have all of the programs and opportunites that we are used to--in other words, they may not have all of the "bells and whistles" that we desire. However, we can show Christ's love and enjoy fellowship with fellow Christians just as well. God can use us to teach, to serve and to share if we will only let Him.
We need to be willing to go wherever He might send us, even if it might be out of our "comfort zone."
Let us not forget what is engraved upon the front of our dear BBC,
"...SEND OUT THY LIGHT AND THY TRUTH...."
And, remember what follows in Psalm 43,
"Let them lead me; let them bring me unto thy holy hill, and to thy tabernacles.
4Then will I go unto the altar of God, unto God my exceeding joy: yea, upon the harp will I praise thee, O God my God.
5Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope in God: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God." (Psalm 43:3-5)
Oh God, I pray for all of the hurting hearts that are being moved from Bellevue. I pray that you will lead them and guide them to the place that you have for them to worship and serve you in the local body of Christ. I pray that they will be like clay in the potters hand, and will willing place their own wants and desires on your altar as they seek direction for their new church home. Bring them peace, wisdom and direction.
Amen.
Jim Angel needs to come before the church and appologize for being part of a preplanned shutdown of the business meeting.
If he refuses to do so, he needs to be removed as a deacon and he needs to be removed of any other leadership roles in the church.
I can't believe a man would his reputation to protect Steve Gaines.
nathan,
The problem is, WHO is going to remove him?
It was the leadership that conspired to do it. He was their willing puppet.
Why would they get rid of him? As long as he is willing to kiss rings, no one is going to get rid of him until they are finished with him.
Leadership and the Sr Pastor allowed a confessed sexual predator to stay on staff.
The same leadership gave that sexual predator a raise instead of reporting him to the authorities.
The victim of this minister/staff predator has been ignored by Steve Gaines many times...
The last time was publicly.
Jim Angel helped shut that meeting down while the victim was in plain sight walking to the mic..... he and the pastor made no attempt to acknowledge him.
Jim Angel is on the team!
Why would he need to come before the church and apologize??
If he did...
Steve and others would have to.
Steve believes and states openly that he is not accountable.
Liars and sexual deviants are more welcome than we are.
gmommy
WELL SAID!
SOTL,
How long do you think it will take for one of the holier than thou followers to post...
that the lip quivering statement made by Steve WAS an apology?????
So what is OUR problem?!
Who on here was for the $3 million dollar deal to Mid-America?
gmommylv,
Steve belives and states openly that he is not accountable:
Many thoughts went through my head as I read your post, but this says it best.
Prov:16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Isaiah 10:33
Behold, the Lord, the Lord of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror; and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled.
concerned,
I am trusting/depending on God's word!
Are you different from concerned sbcer or the same???
gmommy: we are different. Sorry it's a little confusing!
gmommylv,
I am not concernedsbcer.
Standing on the Word of God is all we have and is all we need. Just trust and obey.
concerned: AMEN!
Well, those of you that were for the motion to give $3 million to Mid-America, might want to talk to Dr. Spradlin face to face and see what he thought about the motion. While you are at it, you might want to see what he thinks of this blog.
Lastly, Mark D. did not get fired.
Why: And your point would be?
Why: And you know this how?
why is the question?
why don't you enlighten us?
concerned
and concered sbcer,
Makes me think of that hymn we grew up on ......Trust and Obey, For there's no other way...to be happy in Jesus....but to trust and obey...
I need to learn how to type musical notes...bet NASS knows how!
...doing good,SOTL...no biting the bait.....singing together.......
Shoot! yall bit.
Why not for once, actually go findout for yourself. Go ask him face to face and find out the truth. Do not go on rumors and what you have heard. Go ask him and find out.
why is the question?
I have. Have you?
MD didn't get fired....
PW isn't a sexual predator
SG isn't a dictator
and DC is a man of integrity....yeh,yeh,yeh,
OH, the fence... just itty bitty ....never mind the law and having a little dignity...
We need to put that picture of MD climbing over the fence on you tube or somewhere!!!
That is a hoot!!!
Why does the question matter at all.
The opinions of men are not what we live for. That's one of the sinful things that got us in this mess.
Great deflection.
socwork: You've got mail. :)
gmommy: sorry. :(
Concerned sbcer...
sorry I missed you today!
Next time!!
gmommy: Looking forward to it! :)
concernedsbcer, back at ya!
Socwork,
Did you run him off...
guess he hadn't checked with MS...
Why: I have a question.....it sounded like the 3 million would be good for the Seminary. You seem to think it wouldn't be and that they didn't want it. What is your reasoning and how do you know?
I would feel very uncomfortable asking Dr. Spradlin. What does he think?
Guess so, gmommylv...
he/she sure did disappear fast!
"a few names even in Sardis"
Revelation 3:1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, ' These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 "Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 "Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 "You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. 6 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." '
Thank you, 25+...we've missed you.
:)
What do you think of the church at Laodocia?
Socwork,
I am sure in your line of work that happens to you often.....
reminds me of a vampire running from light.
amen 25+yrs! :)
lol gmommylv! Yes, I guess you could say that. :)
I've been reading... and praying... and grieving for a once great church. The two words in the letters come again and again: Remember... Repent.
The lamp is starting to flicker in my opinion. They would have never believed that GOd would give up Solomon's temple. Another generation would have never believed that God would give up the temple of the first century... Those houses of worship were much greater than Bellevue.
Truth or nothing.
Truth now or later.
Truth-- before the local church or the great assembly.
Period.
OK....how do we read/hear God's word like that from 25+...
and not tremble before the Lord???
How can BBC be run by those that no longer hear His word or fear His judgement?
What about the weak and the wounded that are left?
The psalmist wrote:
"Shall he who planted the ear not hear? He who formed the eye, shall He not see?"
He hears, sees, and knows. What was whispered will be broadcast. No shadows. No grey. Just incredibly bright light: 2 Cor. 5:10.
gmommylv wrote:
"We need to put that picture of MD climbing over the fence on you tube or somewhere!!!
That is a hoot!!!"
That was funny! Was that CT or JC giving him a boost? I couldn't tell from the angle it was shot.
Hey y'all. Check out Keys for Kids and read the Daily Devotional for April 22!
I'm praying that more folks will take off their dark glasses tomorrow, so they can see more clearly and understand so much more...
25+,
I don't see that in 2 Cor.5:10??? What am I missing?
gmommy...
The Psalm is 94:9... and 2 Cor. 5:10 was Paul's warning to the Corinthians that all of us MUST appear before the Bema (judgment seat) of Christ to give an account for the deeds done in this life.
Paul was dragged before Gallio's Bema at Corinth. Gallio had the right of life or death in this life, but Christ's authority is far greater and extends beyond the grave. No one will pull the dirt over themselves and hide from God (some know who I'm quoting here). We will all give account.
Those who will not allow MT. 18 down here will find that any potential embarrassment they may be trying to avoid down here will be magnified beyond current ability to comprehend before the great assembly in heaven...
The Great Shepherd will not appoint ad hoc committees for communication with His sheep. There will be no motions for dismissal.
All sides will be heard... fully. Now or later. If they think they are doing Bellevue a favor by putting bandaids on festering wounds, they are greatly deceived. imo
Oh my,all of Ps 94 is chilling...
v.5 they break in pieces thy people,O Lord,and afflict thine heritage.
They slay the widow and the stranger and murder the fatherless...
v.7 Yet they say,the LOrd shall not see it,neither shall the God of Jacob regard it
v 14 For the Lord will not cast off His people,neither will he forsake his heritage
v15...But judgement shall return unto righteousness: and all the upright in heart shall follow it.
v25 And He will bring upon them their own iniquity,and shall cut them off in their own wickedness..the Lord our God shall cut them off.
25+,
any chance you would do a small gathering home church type thing,maybe once.
Some of us need to be in a safe worship environment before we can take the steps forward. I could do the leg work..whatever that would be. I have really precious wounded faithful servant friends that would be willing also.
gmommylv,
Would you please e-mail me about homechurch?
:o)
This is the day the Lord has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it!
Psalm 118:24
NASS,
Thanx for the timely update on GBC.
Worth reposting...
Churchmouse said...
"Bellevue Baptist Church - True stories from our lives"
May I refer back to this to post my thoughts?
Silence, I believe, has been one of the major obstacles in our progress to clean up Bellevue. How different would our situation be, if the many ministers, staff, and lay ministry would have done what Riad Saba and Mark Sharpe did -- stood up?
Instead, ragtag bands of the willing have been left to defend the ministers, staff, and the church body we once knew. Since our information is often second hand, it becomes hearsay. It is usually labeled 'gossip' by those whose actions we oppose. This silence of the actual victims has cost us valuable credibility.
I have to wonder if the voices of our former leadership, at this point, would even make a difference; or if anything would make a difference. The congregation is now polarized and hardened.
Why has our former staff and lay leadership remained silent? Is it fear? Is it pride? Do they believe Christ taught us to be compliant when his Truth is under assault?
Consider this:
"And the Jews' Passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things from here; make not my Fathers house an house of merchandise." John 2:13-16
It doesn't say He quietly slipped out to another temple. It doesn't say He gave the Pharisees and Sadducees a pass because they were God's anointed. It doesn't say that He kept silent to avoid embarrassment to His family, who had always sacrificed at this temple. He certainly wasn't worried about being labeled a troublemaker among the temple-goers or His neighbors back home in Nazareth. He wasn't fearful that His words would prevent the heathen from entering the Kingdom. He wasn't hindered by the fear of losing teaching privileges in the temple. If He feared the "fence jumpers" of His day, He did not let that prevent Him from proclaiming the Truth.
JMHO,
Churchmouse
12:43 PM, April 18, 2007
nathanb wrote:
"My question is this. Is he going to get this money when he leaves?"
NBBCOF wrote:
They said he would get it if he's been there 10 years.
"Does anyone know how many years he has been here?"
NBBCOF wrote:
He marked his 10-year anniversary sometime around November or December as I recall. It was just a few weeks after they announced the hiring of David Coombs, and I believe that was October 22, 2006.
9:36 PM, April 19, 2007
Correction: The hiring of David Coombs was announced to the congregation the evening of October 8th, not the 22nd. I remember there were rumors that day about MD being fired in some of the comments here.
WHY SAID:
Why not for once, actually go findout for yourself. Go ask him face to face and find out the truth. Do not go on rumors and what you have heard. Go ask him and find out.
SOTL SAYS:
Are you so naive as to think that the administration of BBC doesn't LIE????? ALL they know how to do is LIE!!! WHY would we go and ask someone a question for which we already know the answer?
SOTL to Mark D.:
" Mark, did you get fired?"
Mark D. to SOTL:
" of course not, I just wanted to spend more time with my family"
DUH
David Ripley "preached" at Germantown Baptist today.
He is a wonderful preacher, dynamic, sincere and tender in his call to Jesus.
What a wonderful and healing blessing this morning to hear him.
He really hit home, as so many of you on this blog have, our focus is to be, only on Jesus.
Focus on Jesus, nothing else.
May we all find peace from our turmoil very soon. Our loss at BBC has been like an unforseen death with all the emotions that come with that death; shock, disbeleif, denial, anger, sadness, loss, grief, acceptance.
I personally was in the anger stage even until a few days ago,
I suppose all of these stages are part of the normal healing process.
I thank God for all of you on this blog, a place where we could go and vent and share our common concerns.
God is refining each of us for something better in our life and He is with us every step of the way.
May each of you have a blessed and peaceful day in our Lord Jesus Christ.
"Do they believe Christ taught us to be compliant when his Truth is under assault?"
Yes. That is exactly what has been falsly taught in many churches since the 50's. The word 'love' have been turned upside down. It now means tolerance and excuse instead of a sincere concern for someone's eternal life.
We now have 'fuzzy truth' which is not divisive because it is not truth.
Now, if you stand for truth of the Word in context...you are divisive. But the Word teaches us that it divides and offends.
We have also taken the roles of elder and deacon and turned them into some sort of priviledged status that cannot be questioned. When in reality, they are to be servants to Christ...messengers of the Word...responsible for the spiritual teaching of the Body. An elder is to be above reproach even to the 'world'.
Here is a video here that talks about how important unity in truth really is using scripture.
http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/
gmommy,
That photo of MD was hillarious!! I think it was CT giving him the boost. CT sure looked funny on all fours while MD was standing on his back. funny thing was, he STILL couldn't quite make it.
Ok, somebody - what was the "story" on MD today?
And was he sitting on Steve Gaines knee with a hole in the back of his head when he was talking? :0)
(Piglet wondering if there any informants left at BBC)
Was there to be a reception today for MD? Didn't they have one for Bob Sorrell? Wish they would let me decorate for it. I would pull out those lattice work pieces that we used to use in the old fellowship hall and make them look like fences.
On another subject, did anyone happen to catch the History Channel last night? It was about Jim Jones and let me tell you, it was EERIE!!!It was the whole story.
I'm sad to say that I saw a lot of similarities. His people would stand and applaud him when he made ridiculous statements. It was mind control at its' finest.
I just had a thought. Wouldn't it be funny to have a full body cut out of MD trying to climb over the fence at his reception?
Oh how I wish they would call me to decorate for the reception that they are not going to have.
Mark D. resignation speech is on "savingbellevue.com."
sickofthelies,
I saw the Jim Jones thing a few months ago. Like you, I saw so many similarities it scared me.
They're supposed to have a reception for the Doughartys the second week of May.
I listened to him address the congregation this morning, and it sounded to me like he was saying he's been under a lot of stress since Steve Gaines came, especially during the past year.
Was he saying they're moving to Asheville, NC or just that they traveled there on vacation a few weeks ago that's when things became clear to him? I really couldn't tell, but it did sound as if they're leaving BBC altogether. He did say he doesn't have any job prospects or any idea what they're going to do, but I guess he'll have that extra year's salary to live on while he looks.
He also made a point of saying that no one asked or even hinted that he make this decision.
I was surprised when he said he was saved just 23 years ago. That would have made him how old, in his 30s? Does anyone know what he did before he was hired as associate pastor of BBC?
Stress? He had stress in his job at church because of 'transitions'. Give me a break.
I get a kick out of self important men claiming stress when they make 6 figures and have authority over others. When I heard the same things from the self important ones at my former church...I would always think of the working single mom in the congregation with 3 kids, a car that barely worked wondering if the child support check would come this month. These self important men do not even know what real stress is.
It sure makes me nervous when people claim God speaks to them...they always quote... the 'still small voice...which is referenced from:
1 Kings 19:11-13
11And he said, "Go out and stand on the mount before the LORD." And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore the mountains and broke in pieces the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. 12And after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire the sound of a low whisper.[a] 13And when Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. And behold, there came a voice to him and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"
God speaks to us now through scripture (That is why He gave us His Word) and since this man said nothing about all the scripture that has been ignored during his watch, I have to question his even saying this.
One cannot go along with ignoring clear scriptural commands and claim God is speaking to them. That dog won't hunt.
In his resignation speech, ( I listened to it over on savingbellevue) Mark D. states that he has been doing EXACTLY what God wants him to do.
HMMMM, and I'm sitting here thinking, "does that include the fence climbing?"
He states that his illness is stress related. Yeah, Mark, all that lying is really stressful, isn't it?
Remember the dream, Mark? Remember when you told Mark Sharpe that SG had a dream, and then, two minutes later, you stated, " I never said he had a dream" after learning from MS that SG was now denying it.
Did God tell you to lie about that, too? Mark?
Mark, do you even know HOW to tell the truth?
You have WILLINGLY allowed Steve Gaines to spend your integrity. You cannot get it back.
I, for one, do not believe ONE word of your speech this morning.
That's the problem with being a liar, Mark.
Well newbbcopenforumers,
It is with a heart full of sadness (and a belly full bbq'ed chicken feet) that I make this melancholy announcement.
My mentor, Dr. Nachos Grande, the highly touted and world renowned cyber-professor @ Mexico City Community College Medical School, has extended me a job offer on staff that I just can't refuse....
Part-Time/Partially Paid Assistant to the Intern of the Secretary of the Journeyman Professor (and disposer) of Radioactive and Hazardous Medical Waste/Medical Waste By-products. (my dream job!)
Since I have been forbidden by the AMA & Tennessee Legal System(via court order) from continuing the Loney bloodline(by natural means and unnatural for that matter), I see this as an opportunity to pass on my vast wealth of medical expertise to the next generation of medical students seeking to get their diploma/credentials over the internet within 10-14 days as opposed to actually going to college and an accredited medical school.
I know that some may question the decision, being that my fame, fortune and success has become the stuff that legends are made of and tales of my exploits have grown to folklorian proportions. Not to boast, but is an '88 Ford Country Squire Station Wagon, an upstairs garage apartment, and a vast collection of mid 70's/early 80's cancelled sitcom dinner plates really all there is to life? Sure, I know many of you would like to live such an extravagant & jetset lifestyle, but as a Loney, I feel that I should now give back to the profession that has afforded me many such luxuries, prestige, and semi-communicable diseases.
For those concerned for my safety, rest assured, I have eaten things in the past week alone that have greater levels of contamination than the substances I will be handling (and ingesting when no one is looking) on the job.
I regret that I will not be able to continue to bless this blog with my keen insight, endearing life lessons, and precious daily nuggets from the "Loney Family Archive of Heartwarming Quotes"... I know that it has been a mainstay for many, but since I am going to have to hock my computer for a new tire for the Squire and gas money, as well as for tripe snacks for the trip, I will no longer be able to provide these vital services.
Be strong though...I am convinced that some day, maybe years down the road, that you will recover from this life-altering blow.
As a departing gift, I leave you with the vows that my 3rd wife quoted to me on the day that the highly esteemed pulpiteer (and bail bondsman), minister Al Wright, united us:
"Bill, I have no job, no prospects, no home, my kids hate me and my family disowned me, and since your disgusting apartment is better than a 6x8 cell at county and the mission is full, I guess this will do for now...and by the way, the futon is mine--you're sleeping in that windowless smog machine you call a car"
Good memories ex-3rd wife, good memories.
I any of you are ever near the "Mala Vista" cubicle compound behind the "3 Smelly Ninos Burrito Casa/Auto Repair Shop" in Mexico City, drop in...I hear the compound's pool/burro wash is pretty sweet this time of the year.
I am,
The honorable and highly esteemed medical expert & connoisseur of canned meats/discarded animal products,
William T. Loney M.D.
Odios My Loco Amigos!!!
PS...I am certain that by now I would shedding crocodile tears...that is if my tear ducts hadn't been seered shut by scalding canned meat gelatin in that tragic crockpot mishap at the 'potted-meat-o-thon' back in '86.
gmommylv wrote:
"Makes me think of that hymn we grew up on ......Trust and Obey, For there's no other way...to be happy in Jesus....but to trust and obey...
I need to learn how to type musical notes...bet NASS knows how!"
Will this do? Lyrics and three MIDI versions.
Lin: "I would always think of the working single mom in the congregation with 3 kids, a car that barely worked wondering if the child support check would come this month. These self important men do not even know what real stress is."
You got that right, lin. Makes me want to tell them to give me a break.
(BTW, you sound like you've had expeience in this area. Yeah, me too. Let me tell you about a little stress.....)
Any stress that Mark D. was feeling was self imposed.
SOTL,
I am getting ready to watch the sb.com replay of this morning's event, but before I did, I needed to get in the proper frame of mind. I watched the shots of the fab 4 not only climbing over the itty bitty fence, but to top it off, the bit where they were jumping up and down on the actuator trying to get the LOCKED gate to open so they could get out was the one that took the prize for me. I guess they were too tired from all the previous climbing and walking to try to climb back over it again...
Now for the popcorn,.....
Here's the speech that Mark D. SHOULD HAVE GIVEN:
I am announcing my retirement today. I am sick and tired of lying for Steve Gaines and David Coombs.
We almost got by with the fence climbing until we learned that someone saw us doing it. If not for one of the neighbors watching us climb the fence, we would STILL be denying it. That is what I was told to do.
By the way, Steve Gaines DID tell me that he had a dream, and I was unaware that he did not want it repeated until I learned from Mark Sharpe that he was denying it.
I have been unable to sleep at night because all this lying is so stressful, trying to remember who I told what to.
I have to constantly watch my back around here. Everyone has turned into a pariah, trying to gain favor with Steve Gaines.
I know where all the bodies are buried. I know all the secrets. I know where all the money has been flowing.
Keeping all these secrets has taken a toll on my marriage and on my health.
I'm outta here.
Where is the link to this fabulous picture of fence-climbing?
mom4
Yeah, that one did it for me, too!!!
What a hoot the fab 4 are!
concerned,
I am emailing you the link..
Dr. Bill Loney wrote:
"I know that it has been a mainstay for many, but since I am going to have to hock my computer for a new tire for the Squire and gas money, as well as for tripe snacks for the trip, I will no longer be able to provide these vital services."
I suggest we take up an immediate love offering for Dr. Loney so he doesn't have to hock his computer. I, for one, would miss him and his "Daily Nuggets" of wisdom very much. What say, sheeps?
Ahhh...thank you......I see what everyone's been talking about. It's just hard to imagine isn't it?
NASS:
I"ll throw in some of my leftover gell from my Sunday dinner potted meat casserole.
NASS: Count me in.
Dr. Looney, you are a men among men. Yes, A man among men, Dr. Looney, a man among men!
Listened to the speech...I was struck with several things, but mainly when he said that he prayed for Dr. Gaines to come to BBC. Did ANYONE pray for God's man or just the man they wanted?
Just askin'
NASS,
Obviously I have missed something. Would you please email me the link to the "fence climbing fab 4" that many are raving over. Thanx.
I'll donate a 3 time retreaded tire with innertube for the good Doctor.
Please don't go, Dr. Loney. We would miss you too much and clearly we are far too emotionally fragile to endure a loss of this nature. Please reconsider.
Regards,
Socwork
charlie,
E-mail coming your way now.
I just listened to MD's resignation speech.
Two things stuck out to me....Mark said that when He and his wife were on vacation, they "really heard God for the first time". Makes me wonder who have you been hearing the past two years??? If you would have listened to God sooner maybe you wouldn't have been caught up in all the sinning.
Second thing: It seems awful strange that he makes a strong point to say that no one has even hinted that he should retire. Doesn't that have STEVE GAINES/DAVID COOMBS written all over it?!?!?!?! If you are really being called away from some place, why would you worry about protecting the dictator unless the dictator demanded you insert that in your speech. He said that he was determined to do God's will no matter the cost yet he ended up being a yes man to the dictator. I hope he repents, matures and just becomes a yes man to God alone.
I have edited my other comments as to not to find fault with everything Mark said. I just think a few more resignations are in order starting with the dictator. We need to cancel the Jamie Parker show & send him to Paul & Jan on TBN. A few other ministers & deacons need to repent & resign. They know who they are..so do we...so does God.
(BTW, you sound like you've had expeience in this area. Yeah, me too. Let me tell you about a little stress.....) "
Sotl...actually I don't in the same sense but God saw fit to put me in a situation where I saw many single moms in the church who were struggling. And I was amazed at how little they complained yet I would hear grown men who were ministers, administrators, etc., making 6 figures lamenting about the stress they were under and how they HAD to have their vacations, get home by 5 to help their wives with the kids, etc. (Girly men)
It really started to dawn on me how little of a clue these well paid mega 'ministers' have about real life in the real world. (Not all ministers are well paid...I know...but that is changing rapidly in this country as churches become more of a social center than the Body of Christ)
Just a note: One of my former clients owned quite a few franchises in the service industry. I once asked him who made the best employees because his turnover was very low. He said: Without a doubt it is single moms. They have to work, are resourceful and dependable.
concernedsbcer wrote:
"Did ANYONE pray for God's man or just the man they wanted?"
What's stuck with me ever since was when a few weeks ago Dee wrote that PW headed up the prayer group for the search committee.
lindon......well, we have to do whatever it takes. We take care of our children and at all costs. Sad statement on our world, though....
Thanks for your kind words.
preacherdude777 wrote:
"Second thing: It seems awful strange that he makes a strong point to say that no one has even hinted that he should retire. Doesn't that have STEVE GAINES/DAVID COOMBS written all over it?!?!?!?!"
Well, it had something strange written all over it. We know MD's secretary has been required, as part of her job duties, to read this blog. So I imagine that comment was for "our" benefit as much as anything.
I read on the Alabama bapist association about bivocational pastors & the struggles they have. A couple of Pastors had a full time job & two churches they pastored. Talk about stress.
I know when I was a bivocational Pastor, I had a full time job working 9am - 9pm Tuesday -Friday. Had a sick wife, new baby, had to study after working 12 hours. I studied all day on Saturday, often finishing my sermons after midnight. I drove 45 minutes to church,taught sunday school, preached, visited with the members, went back home, worked on Sunday night message, go back to church, preached, visited some more, went home. Monday I went back to the church to lead a bible study, made hospital visits, ect. Talk about stress! I am not complaining because it was God's will and He sustained me but please, don't complain about the stress when making 6 figures and you have multiple staff members to help you.
Being a minister is stressful like most people wouldn't understand but don't complain about it if that is your calling.
I didn't know that Mark's secretary is required to read this blog! I wish I got paid to play on the internet.
Well let me give a shout out to Mark's ex-secretary! Hey what's up girl! How's it going? Keep it real!: )
preacherdude....me too!!! Paid to watch the blog...count me in.........
This morning SG said: "Sinners need to say , 'save me right now'
if you've received the Lord...if you've asked the Lord to come into your life...then come and be baptized as Jesus commands."
Clearly SG does not believe Eph 2:1-5. Sinners are dead in sins and walk according to the course of this world. Undertakers don't talk to the dead! (they don't carry on two-way dialog)
Wikipedia states that Gaines' theology is conservative and evangelical.
Rod stated on April 10 that there are no Arminians at Bellevue and he said "both ( calvinism and armininism) have been perverted, in my opinion, and taken on a life of their own by thoes who enjoy arguing,"
Don't hate me because I am a Calvinist and if I criticize Bellevue's theology don't accuse me of being argumentative (a cheap shot) Just explain to me that what SG preached this morning is not a perversion of theology.
NASS,
Thanx for the email. Boy, there is certainly no problem identifying the 4 perps. And that is supposed to be an "ITTY BITTY" fence. MD would have needed a stile to get over it, if the other 2 hadn't helped. I noticed who is "supervising"? Too funny!!!! ROFL
"I know when I was a bivocational Pastor, "
Preacherdude, I am convinced we need more bivocational pastors. I personally know 4 right now and each one of them are grounded in the Word...they have to be because they are in the 'world' everyday! If home churches keep growing as we are seeing, it may happen.
Let's put it this way...these types of pastors are not laying up treasures on earth!!
Thanks for sharing your experience. Ministry was never meant to be a path to the good life. (I am not talking about starving pastors, here...folks so please don't go there...I am talking about something more realistic...Alistar Begg only makes 60,000 year...so we know they can actually live on that)
NASS, Just sent you mail. Thanks
Sleepless-12:45 post
Part of the healing process that people go through after the death of a loved one, all the stages you mentioned are true. The anger is hard to deal with. I have been told that people actually get mad at the person that died for dying. The death of Dr. Rogers was premature by our standards. However, God knows best.
It is so sad that we did not have a man of God to love us, pray for/with us, to have compassion for us, to hurt because we were hurting, on and on I could go. What we recieved was heartless emotion, hatred backed up with " if you do not like it, leave." And this was backed up by the leadership that Dr. Rogers loved and trusted.
I wonder how much time we will have to face people in heaven before God wipes away all the tears???????
SOTL said
Here's the speech that Mark D. SHOULD HAVE GIVEN:
I am announcing my retirement today. I am sick and tired of lying for Steve Gaines and David Coombs.
We almost got by with the fence climbing until we learned that someone saw us doing it. If not for one of the neighbors watching us climb the fence, we would STILL be denying it. That is what I was told to do.
By the way, Steve Gaines DID tell me that he had a dream, and I was unaware that he did not want it repeated until I learned from Mark Sharpe that he was denying it.
I have been unable to sleep at night because all this lying is so stressful, trying to remember who I told what to.
I have to constantly watch my back around here. Everyone has turned into a pariah, trying to gain favor with Steve Gaines.
I know where all the bodies are buried. I know all the secrets. I know where all the money has been flowing.
Keeping all these secrets has taken a toll on my marriage and on my health.
I'm outta here.
Piglet says:
ROFLOL!!!!!!
I may have to put this on the refrigerator!!!!
lin's website:
"Fuzzy truth" is often preferred as a means of providing supposed unity. The idea is, stay with broad general definitions of terms, so that the maximum number of Christians will feel comfortable with each other's beliefs. But is this true unity? And which is more important, truth or unity?
Is this what SG is doing? Is this the way that Bellevue remains mega? Does the SBC sacrifice truth for unity? Is SG the exception or the rule for SBC preachers?
Mom4 or concernedsbcer or NASS
I want to see this picture, too!!
Or are y'all just "vision casting"?
NASS,
Would you please email me the link to the "fence climbing fab 4" that many are raving over. Thanks.
Luke 12:48 (King James Version)
"... For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, OF HIM THEY WILL ASK THE MORE."
Tim writes: "Power absolutely corrupts men. Absolute power corrupts men completely."
Just a thought: We focus much on the corrupttion of leadership but could it be the committment of the followers for the corruption? It seems that followers will ask the more until the leaders feel their corruptions are acceptable.
If Bellevue is congregationally ruled should it have been asking for that rule a long time ago? If the leadership is in error and the congregation is silent then aren't they ruling by silence.
Could there be a distructive force with both parties to unconsciously destroy the other?
Does this rule come from God? Or does it come in the absence of God's rule?
The following is in reference to a popular MLM that we are all familiar.
"Charismatic leadership" refers to the idea that the leadership of the group has special powers or knowledge that the rest of the group does not have, or that the group wants to attain. The leadership has the ability to practically issue orders that are followed by the group without a second thought. This is related to sacred science: if the leaders have done something, the followers should do it as well and expect the same results. The leaders can also control a member's emotions by teaching that "Loyalty and devotion are the most highly respected of all." To question the leadership is to be disloyal."
"... For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, OF HIM THEY WILL ASK THE MORE."
Bellevue was founded upon charismatic leadership and continues by such. Some would say Christ but the present mess indicates different.
will someone e-mail me the link too?
Thanks!
"... For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, OF HIM THEY WILL ASK THE MORE."
MLM "Distributors are also taught to edify their leaders in the business. This means that distributors should always respect their upline- no matter how new or how ignorant the upline may appear to be. This unconditional respect causes a person to become unquestioning and paves the way for a loss of critical thinking. As people begin to edify their upline more, their reward is to spend more time with the high-level Directs. So what if their upline is a complete jerk? The distributor gets to spend time with his "successful" upline and learn some information straight from the source. I would say that the information a distributor receives in this "special meeting" will simply be restated material he would have heard over and over: buy more tapes, get more people listening to tapes, attend more functions, get more people to attend the functions, etc. As always, though, the distributor feels "privileged" to be spending this time with his upline.
The use of deception in a group can take on many forms: there can be lying about the organization's affiliation, lying about the size of the group, lying about the success in the group, or lying about other group practices. There can also be deception about what the end results of the group really are. Sometimes, the deception is in the form of a hidden agenda by the leadership: an agenda to make money for themselves, sometimes at the expense of the group. Because the group is offering their own form of salvation, the deception is rationalized because the end goal justifies whatever means are necessary to achieve that goal. As Steve Hassan writes, "As long as [the people in the group] believe that what they are doing is 'right' and 'just,' many of them think nothing of lying, stealing, [or] cheating ..." (Hassan, 1988)
Does any of this apply to Bellevue?
Are there pyramidal hierarchial levels at Bellevue? Does this expoential growth apply to Bellevue?
Rob Mullins preached tonite at GBC.
It is so refreshing to go to church and feel like you are worshiping with no hidden agendas.
Our favorite first lady of BBC was there with a friend, she is so beautiful and gracious.
Rob Mullins daughter-in-law sang the song she sang at Rob's mother's funeral "Run to Jesus", I think is the name of it. Didn't someone sing that at Dr. Rogers funeral, I kept thinking of him the entire time and what fun he must be having now, kicking up gold dust in Heaven.
What if...
Dr Rogers did not retire . . did not die of cancer . . remained at Bellevue as senior pastor.
Steve Gaines was senior pastor at Gardendale.
MD was associate. . MS was a deacon
not having congregational meetings would not be a problem
PD and CGM would not be issues
JM would be leading music
Elder rule would be a non-issue
Altar calls would be no different except the responses would be greater and the cameras would pull back showing the responses.
There would be trust of parents leaving their children with the child care.
Teenagers would roam the halls freely.
PW would be approaching 19 years of secrecy.
Everything would be great. God's will would be done on earth as in heaven.
We would be planning a great birthday celebration of Dr Roger's 76th birthday in September.
watchinghisstory,
Your "what ifs" make some interesting points. I think many would agree that the problems recently experienced under the current pastor administration have been used of God to demonstrate longer standing problems that were not previously evident. But it seems that many also have different idea about just what is at the root of the problems...
Oh yes
NASS would be enjoying the comfort of her parents basement lurking on other forums!
WHS wrote:
"NASS would be enjoying the comfort of her parents basement lurking on other forums!"
Just more LIES AND RUMORS on this hate-filled blog! I told you my parents don't have a basement!
:-D
So I wonder how big the reception will be for MD and will it be after a Sunday night service?
Maybe we can somehow manage to show " the" video of the Fab 4.
Surely they aren't ashamed of their actions?
John Caldwell has not yet apologized for his part.
Can someone see if they would allow me to decorate? I have some wonderful ideas on how to give little Mark a tremendous send off.
Does anyone know about Chip Freeman???
Wasn't he on vacation too???
Will GOD speak to him next????
Just some thoughts on MD's speech....
We Knew that Rob M. was told what to say....it was included in the speech he read that he was NOT asked to leave or forced out....
So why did MD have to say that also??
Won't the non thinkers ,followers ,and the blind catch on????
he is leaving because of STRESS....but "likes to eat"....so wouldn't not knowing how they will eat (at least after a year or so) be STRESSFUL?????
Not many men would just quit a job with nothing else lined up.
How stupid do they think we are....or is it just for the blind and sleeping????
I think everyone knew MD was on the way out when they hired DC. How many more men are going to be compromised before it's all said and done?...only the LORD knows.
or MAYBE.....
he did get away,
read the Bible in a hotel room...
and realize he shouldn't have done all the things he has done??????
(sure wasn't obeying scripture when he broke the law and lied and covered for Stevie Wonder)
So the guilt and conviction brought him to his right mind?????
BUT, well over a month ago....
my deacon friend said he was acting all humbled and repentant and apologizing to people....
could have been 3 months ago...
I have lost the time since DC ...king of the brutes ...read the bogus report
he had no choice
AT LEAST from the day DC came on board.
He's probably been filing and taking messages for the other ministers...
wonder if he has any regrets......
gmommy,
RE: MD
apologizing to people for what?
My friend did tell me a few of the people he apologized to,... I may have written it down but I'd have to find where I wrote it. all staff/deacons
Sometime around the "J/Starbks"(hehe) time was when MD had been acting repentant. I remember where I was when my friend told me and it was right after that.
Hate to bring this up again; but, again I am floored by our staff.
The family of the girl that was cussed and handcuffed at church was told by David Coombs that the only thing that would happen in this situation was that the security guard that cussed and cuffed her would 'rotate' off the schedule. He said nooone would loose their job and there would be no public apology. The family felt the Lord was leading them to drop it and settle for the security guard being rotated off. (Against everyone's advice to take action).
Last week the family was walking through the church and the child freaked out. The security guard was still there. The girl had told her family before that she thought she saw him and we all just told her it was okay, he is no longer there, don't worry! How stupid were we to believe our staff would stand behind what they said!
David Coombs got a phone call about this. David said he never said that this security guard would rotate off. He basically said this family was lying. He was explained to that the only justice this family got was that this man that cussed and cuffed this child, had been rotated off the security detail. David said this man would go nowhere. That he was a member of Bellevue and that his wife was an active member of the choir and even sang in the ensambles. That this man sits down front and goes to the Morning Mana breakfasts. David said that his children were active and that he would not be asked to leave. David NEVER addressed the girl. He was explained that this child was freaked out and that she refuses to go back to church because she feels violated and feels that the church would rather protect their own instead of a child. Never once was there any concern for the child or offer for counseling.
This fellow has black hair and wears glasses. This child jumps when she sees someone of that description! But, lets just protect our numbers, we have plenty of children to spare.
Only,
Can you get his name?
Only,
And this is the man that dropped the " F BOMB" on this child?
Just as SG is COUNTING on the R's remaining silent
(when he says at the PP that they are present and they are not and how supportive they have been).....
they are COUNTING on no one taking legal action......
Wendy wrote a really good article for a victim....
Oh, and another thing....
Steve Gaines was approached tonight at a local eatery and was told about the child being cussed and handcuffed (just so he would know). The girl happened to be there at the time with her family. She was then pointed out to them (Donna was there). Steve said he was out of town and didn't know much about it and that David told him he took care of it. Steve was then explained David's version of 'taking care of it' and Steve was told how horrified the child was when she saw the security guard still there. Steve was also told that the child is scared to go back and upset that nothing was done. Steve was also explained that the family feels that no concern was shown to them and that the girl was very upset by it. Donna walked off. Steve got up to leave. Never once did they look towards the family nor did they attempt to go greet the family, apologize or even pray with the family. Steve said he would make sure David knew the security guard was there. He was explained to that David had been calle and told that already and that he didnt care because the man was a member of Bellevue and his wife sang in the choir. Steve walked off without another glance or goodbye.
This is probably the end for my family. I absolutely could not believe that Steve could be so cold and heartless. I don't care who he is, if I knew a child had been so hurt and traumatized at my church and someone approached me about it.....I would have been there in a second to apologize for my fellow member and would have at least prayed with them and offered to give them the name of a Biblical Guidance staffer. I am so ashamed of my Pastor and Assistant Pastor.
Maybe Mark was convicted or his actions and could no longer stand behind his pastor and was told to leave. His speech was definately not polished.
ONLY,
SG is a sociiopath, and so is his wife.
They are not capable of feeling anything for others.
They are interested in ONE thing.
THEIR money
THEIR power
It's all about THEM.
They will not give us the name. All we know is that he is a member. He has dark hair and wears glasses, dark eyes, early forties maybe. His wife sings in the choir and is in the praise team. His kids play sports and he goes to the Morning Mana thing.
David was full of telling how 'big' this man is at Bellevue and that he would not be asked to go anywhere.
AND YES He DID drop the F Bomb; and other cuss words and was VERY ugly, harsh and scary! It was witnessed by many including TWO MINISTERS!!!
Could someone determine what this man's name is?
HE doesn't deserve to get to have abused this child in anonomously.
All I know is something needs to be done. I am sure Steve wanted to check his facts and get where he was protected by his staff and not have to handle it..But there was a child involved. A hurting child. She should have at the VERY least been prayed with, but Donna was the first to walk off.
Who are we ministering to now?
A pastor that rewards a sexual predator for his confession
by assuring him his job is safe and gives him a raise
would never care about this girl.
A pastor that repeatedly ignores the victim of this staff sexual molestor
would never care about this girl
A pastor that breaks the law,
lies to the congregation,
disobeys and twists scripture
would never care about this girl
this pastor responded to the 19 year olds question
about the victim being left at the mic
by saying....don't worry, there won't be anymore meetings.
this "pastor" is as dead inside as PW was the day I confronted him at the water fountain.
Why do we continue to expect ANY loving,sane,scriptural responses from this false teacher?????
What format is left to expose these brutes and bullies but the media.
..or the legal path..
OK...they will appear soon to tell me how un christian I am...
something to think about,,, only a member in reference to your:"but, lets just protect our numbers we have plenty of children to spare."
Children don't tithe. Children dong give money. This may be a clue as to why they are so disposible. Only a thought.
How can a child be used or further anyone's agenda?
Thanks, SOTL. Back atcha.
SOTL wrote:
"They are interested in ONE thing.
"THEIR money
THEIR power"
That's two things.
Oh, wait. Never mind.
I'm confused....MD said he has known to obey God AT ALL costs..
huh????
This man is not a loose cannon and would not behave in the manner spoken of.
Also, why would someone confront the pastor in a public place??
There are so many misbehaving children of all ages whose parents won’t control them and are turned loose in Bellevue's hallways. When security has to intervene, the security people are then demonized.
Has anyone ever talked with security and heard what they are up against every day? The events that take place within the walls of our church are terrible and the security should be supported and not attacked.
Don't get me wrong, I am not a big fan of what the pastor and administration have done over the last 2 years but even they deserve to eat in peace in public.
Try taking some time and find out what the security have to deal with from the youth in the church and maybe you will come away with a different perspective.
If the parents would keep an eye on their own children then security and staff wouldn't have to become involved.
I talked to bro R everytime I saw him in public....he insisted.
No matter what slant you put on it SOMETHING pastorly should come out of that man.
PW became the victim....
the church should be safe...it is not.
The church should have better ways to handle problems than the way they did with this young girl.
For SG or anyone to say and do nothing is no different than the victim of PW being ignored at the business meeting.
we will not "accept their authority" blindly.
Why didn't security do more than follow the freak around they knew was trying to catch a glimpse of the girls dressing for PP. They should cuff,cuss,and call the cops on him......lets at least be consistent.
gopher wrote:
"This man is not a loose cannon and would not behave in the manner spoken of."
So you know who he is? And you were there and witnessed what really happened? I wasn't, but I wouldn't just dismiss what several people have said they did witness because I thought I knew what someone would or wouldn't do in a particular situation.
"There are so many misbehaving children of all ages whose parents won’t control them and are turned loose in Bellevue's hallways. When security has to intervene, the security people are then demonized."
No doubt. But we're not talking about all those misbehaving children. We're talking about one teenage girl who, regardless of her history with security, by all accounts was sitting in the service behaving herself when she was escorted out by more than half a dozen security guards, cussed at, handcuffed, and intimidated by this "godly" man. I don't care what they have to put up with. There's no excuse for this man's behavior. Absolutely none. Remember he was supposed to be the adult.
And I agree with "gmommylv" and others about the freaky family with the peeping-tom father, nutty mother, and weapon-toting, stalker son. These sorts of people worry me a whole lot more than a smart-mouthed teenage girl. "Security" should concentrate on... security, not acting like a bunch of junior G-men wannabes.
"Don't get me wrong, I am not a big fan of what the pastor and administration have done over the last 2 years but even they deserve to eat in peace in public."
Just like a teenage girl who is not disturbing those around her deserves to worship in peace in her church? I agree a restaurant isn't the ideal place to discuss something like this, but if Steve Gaines didn't insulate himself from members of the church, fail to answer letters and phone calls, and refuse to meet with people who request to meet with him, perhaps people wouldn't have to corner him in the hallways at church or in restaurants or in other public places.
gopher,
It is comments like yours that truly tests one's Christian Spirit. That is the only way that I can respond to your post without loosing mine!!!!!!!
LATE SUMMER 2005
Mark Dougharty purchases two round-trip tickets for Allison and Donna Gaines to return from a Florida vacation and attend cheerleading tryouts at ECS. He uses church money for the tickets and deems the cost as part of the Gaines’s moving expenses.
No matter what MD did, the King still deemed him disposable.
Who will be the next to feel God's call away from Bellevue.
Is Mark D. going on a medical disability?
Is this disability a mental or physically disability?
I am sure this is a permanently disability??
All it takes for this to happen is for a Doctor to give a diagnosis.
What a way to keep Mark D. silent.
Let the insurance company pay him off and the membeship will never know, and Mark D. will never speak out about the problems at Bellevue.
The only thing that will now happen is the Church's insurance rate will increase and the insurance committee will just have to give additional funds to cover the additional premiums.
Is this is why Mark D. can step out on faith because he has a check for life ??????
Remember Mark D. also has 1 year of deffered compensation that was put aside for him whenever he leaves Bellevue which may be around $220,000.
Intheknow,
Who would have thunk it??!!
Is BBC just weaving more tangled webs?
Before we know it the IRS, TBI, FBI, MEDIA and maybe the INSURANCE COMMISSION will get involved at BBC.
Steve Gaines said last night, apologeticaly, that he was using a Calvinist as a reference, Spurgeon, a soul-winner.
He said, "If you are going to be a Calvinist you ought to be a soul-winning Calvinist." Pardon me but isn't this a barbed statement? The implication is that Calvinist are not soul-winners.
So if SG is not a Calvinist what is he? Is he a two point Calvinist or a four point Arminian?
Now if you ignor me as being argumentative, let me remind you that SG started it last night and I will not sit by silently.
Last night he said: "Repentence comes before faith." He comes into your heart when you repent.
There goes the first point of Calvinism, total depravity.
FYI,
I know the name of the security guard if anyone wants it.
karen
Just a quick question, watchinghistory...
Umm... Armenian... Calvinist?
I have no earthly idea what those are... Calvists are primarily Presbyterian, if I remember my Sanders Wilson sermons correctly...
I don't know whether or not I'm an Armenian or a Calvist.. but I do know that I am a Christian... unless you first have to determine if you are Armenian or Calvanistic...
Point is this... who cares which "label" you put on stuff? Unless, of course, you are simply using it as yet another "missile" in your inventory to fire at Bro. Gaines...
gopher,
Grab a walkie talkie from the church some Wednesday or Sunday. The security guards are pretty much a bunch of sexist, foul mouths neaderthal jerks. I know of which I speak - my mother was on a committee (she has since resigned) and had to have a walkie talkie on for years. Over the last 2 years, some of the things she's heard over the radio would make a grown man blush. So really, who's being villified - the security guards are just a bunch of goons with earpieced and an overbloated sense of power.
A lot of people on this blog know who I am and know my family. I wouldn't say these thing without 1) consent of my mom and 2) knowledege of which I speak.
karen
gopher said:
"Don't get me wrong, I am not a big fan of what the pastor and administration have done over the last 2 years but even they deserve to eat in peace in public
SOTL says:
I have a freind whose 8 y/o son was going to have surgery. They went to Chili's after church and the child spotted Mr. and Mrs. Rogers. He ran over to him and hugged him and told him that he was having surgery the following day.
My friend, embarassed, apologized for the intrusion, but Dr. Rogers asked her if what he was told was true. Responding in the affirmative, Dr. Rogers and Mrs. Rogers held hands with my friend and her entire family and in the middle of CHILI's prayed for that child.
Now THAT is a man with a pastor's heart.
And now I think I will go and cry a while.
I don't know much about Calvin or Armin, but I do know that each had their good points.
Unrelated, but interesting reading:
There is a new post here titled "A reason why no staffers will step up, perhaps..."
May I suggest that each family here pick a ministry at BBC and pray for the minister/staff/interns/volunteers in that department? They ALL need prayer! They might act suspicious, but a note of encouragment and/or a plate of cookies might really bless someone! Hee Hee ~ NOW you know what to do with the art projects created by the kids in Sunday School! :o)
For those attending other places, why not try this at your home church? I'm beginning to realize that my years at BBC were rather selfish. I loved to take what Dr. Rogers gave. Seldom did I reach out to those who served and seldom did I pray for them.
Just a thought...
SpringerSpaniel said...
Just a quick question, watchinghistory...
Umm... Armenian... Calvinist?
SG knows the difference and he don't mind firing "missiles". Do you give him a free pass?
I care passionately.
SOTL,
To further the "pastor's heart" comment, Dr. Rogers used to come into El Chico's on Highland when the church was in midtown and come over to the "young people" and talk to us, get to know us by face and pray for us. He'd pray over our dinners right there in El Chico's.
I know of waitresses in this town that can attest to this fact - Dr. Rogers would ask them what he could pray for them about - and do it right there. Shocking! And this was when he was President of the SBC. Can't imagine why a big, important guy would take time out for the little people, do you?
Finally and the most precious to me, my parent's really good friend had died in a motorcycle accident the day of the 4th of July celebration out at BBC. I saw Dr. and Mrs. Rogers riding around in the golf cart and I stopped them to tell them about this accident. He prayed right then and there for the family even though I forgot the man's 1st name. He was so busy that day, but not too busy to minister to his people.
Sad state of affairs when your preacher can't take time for little ole kids, huh?
karen
Springer Spaniel said:
Unless, of course, you are simply using it as yet another "missile" in your inventory to fire at Bro. Gaines...
Sotl says:
Springer, please help me to understand how you can write a paragraph like the one above, ending in " using it as a missle to fire at Bro. Gaines" AFTER you read what he did to that famiy in the restaurant. Nevermind that he KNOWINGLY allowed a pedophile to run loose in our church for 6 months.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE help me to understand how you ( and others like you) continue to defend a man that is indefensible.
P.S. I think you can purchase the JIM JONES DVD from the History Channel if you missed the showing on Sat. night.
Karen,
Those are the stories that make me realize just how far we have fallen as a church.
Dr. R. was TRULY a man of God. He didn't need to TELL anyone that he was such.
Steve Gaines prances and struts around TELLING people he is a " man of God" and he is much too busy for them. He is a proud, arrogant little man.
gopher said
Don't get me wrong, I am not a big fan of what the pastor and administration have done over the last 2 years but even they deserve to eat in peace in public.
Piglet says:
I don't know about that. Steve has promised there would be no more meetings. He's insulated himself from the membership.
I think he deserves to be hassled everywhere he goes. :)
For Springer: This has been discussed at length on this blog. You will want to go back 5 or so threads and read that discussion. Also, you can go to founders.org or spurgeon.org to read about Calvinism. For Armenianism, you can start with Bibleforum.org. I'm sure many others, like AllofGrace, can direct you to areas to research as well. This is not something you need to blow off; you need to take ownership and study it for yourself.
Given the fact that SG won't meet privately with members to discuss issues, (evidently Matthew 18 doesn't apply to pastors) public conversations seem to me to be the only feasible option.
"The events that take place within the walls of our church are terrible and the security should be supported and not attacked. "
Does not sound like a 'church' to me. You are talking about 'believers', right? Sure?
"Don't get me wrong, I am not a big fan of what the pastor and administration have done over the last 2 years but even they deserve to eat in peace in public."
If you do not want to be a celebrity pastor then do NOT pastor a mega. Stay off TV and radio, too. I am sure he loves the 'public' when book signing time comes.
If you do want to be a celebrity pastor, then don't expect to eat in public in peace.
Reminds me of Hollywood stars complaining about the photographers. Duh.
My son was a founding member of POWR percussion (the "trash can boys") and he was amazed that frequently Dr. R would stop by, watch them rehearse, talk to them, and knew them all by name.
Also, about 7 years ago, we were at the Passion Play. My daughter, who has physical limitations, was moved by the representation of God healing the little girl. On the comment form, she wrote that she really loved that part and hoped one day God would heal her. Two weeks later she received a personal letter from Dr. R assuring her of God's love and protection, and telling her he had prayed for her as well. She still has that letter.
We are not BBC members. That, my dear friends, is love from a man of God.
Maybe SG could have a litmus test for who he talks to in public:
He should extend his ring, and if you kiss it, he will listen to what you have to say.
If you do NOT kiss it, he doesn't have to talk to you.
THERE? see how easy that was?
"Last night he said: "Repentence comes before faith." He comes into your heart when you repent.
There goes the first point of Calvinism, total depravity. "
SG has been reading the blog. I have been listening to his sermons and they are so twisted and jumbled I can see the man has a very shallow understanding of scripture. The first question to ask here is what causes a person to really and truly repent? Answer: Conviction by the Holy Spirit.
lin,
I agree - if you want to be private, live privately. Don't get your name and face on TV every week and expect not to be noticed.
I also agree with Socwork, but remember, Matt. 18 doesn't apply to Steve Gaines (does it, Chuck Taylor and Steve Tucker?). Whether it applies to all pastors is still up for debate. PS: Socwork, I emailed you back! :)
One more memory of Dr. Rogers, when he was attacked at the pulpit in the midtown church, it was he who prayed for the demonic man - not a bunch of security guards. What I'm saying is this, Dr. Rogers wasn't insulated nearly as much as Steve Gaines is. After Dr. Rogers was attacked, the guards were hired. Also, I NEVER heard a bad word come from their mouths - EVER! I surely never saw them handcuff anyone.
karen
Karen,
I wasn't at the midtown church.
When/How was Dr. R. attacked? Was he hurt?
Watchinghistory said,
If Bellevue is congregationally ruled should it have been asking for that rule a long time ago? If the leadership is in error and the congregation is silent then aren't they ruling by silence.
Could there be a distructive force with both parties to unconsciously destroy the other?
Does this rule come from God? Or does it come in the absence of God's rule?
5:30 PM, April 22, 2007
If one views the recent developments in light of the statements "God told me" or even going back to the "dream" this may include your answer.
6"Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: Repent and turn away from your idols, and turn away your faces from all your abominations. 7For any one of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel, who separates himself from me, taking his idols into his heart and putting the stumbling block of his iniquity before his face, and yet comes to a prophet to consult me through him, I the LORD will answer him myself. 8And I will set my face against that man; I will make him a sign and a byword and cut him off from the midst of my people, and you shall know that I am the LORD. 9And if the prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the LORD, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. 10And they shall bear their punishment[a] --the punishment of the prophet and the punishment of the inquirer shall be alike-- 11that the house of Israel may no more go astray from me, nor defile themselves anymore with all their transgressions, but that they may be my people and I may be their God, declares the Lord GOD."
Making a note that Springer Spaniel has not been able to verbalize why/how she defends an indefensible man.
"I also agree with Socwork, but remember, Matt. 18 doesn't apply to Steve Gaines (does it, Chuck Taylor and Steve Tucker?). Whether it applies to all pastors is still up for debate."
karen, the reason why they tried to get you all to believe that Matt 18 does not apply to pastors is because Matt 18 means church discipline...even for pastors. Can't have that.
As my Bible reads... Matt 18 does NOT apply for 'public' offenses in the church. It is for personal offenses between believers. False teaching, public sins by teachers, elders, etc., requires MUCH more than Matt 18.
springer
Theology is important. Theology translates into behavior as sure as fruit follows blossoms.
Luke 12:45-46 (King James Version)
45But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
What the servant says in his heart is his theology and the result is terrible behavior.
Altering behavior is useless if you don't correct the theology (heart).
A must read at team pyro today
http://teampyro.blogspot.com/
sickofthelies said...
Karen,
I wasn't at the midtown church.
When/How was Dr. R. attacked? Was he hurt?
GIRL, let me tell you - it was something to see! I was about 9 or 10 years old and I was sitting pretty close to the front because dad was at work and mom was in the choir. In the middle of preaching, this crazy wacko guy comes flying through the doors, knocking over plants and made a beeline toward Dr. Rogers. Dr. Rogers sort of put his hands up and I don't think the guy ever touched him. I remember Leonard Garland (a former boxer) jumping over the choir loft and he punched the guy, knocking him down. Then Dr. Rogers prayed over him and they led the guy out. George Sartain's son (in his teens at the time) jumped off the balcony onto the platform, scaring Mrs. Lafferty (the pianst) and the choir to death. They was talk of a "conspiracy" for a quick second, but that was quickly disproven. Dr. Rogers sort of calmed everyone down, tried to finish his sermon and gave a gospel invitation.
Remember now, BBC was broadcasting on Channel 13 in real time back then and we watched it again on the news that night. Somebody somewhere has got to have a copy of that tape. It'd be pretty interesting to see again.
karen
lin,
I hope you could feel my sarcasm when I posted that about Matt. 18 :)
karen
Karen,
I know somebody that works at that station....wonder if he could check on that for us? I'll ask. I'll bet it was a sight.
Karen,
What struck me the most about the story is that the man was prayed over by Dr. R. and then he was led out.
Contrast that to the 15 y/o girl. She was SITTING IN CHURCH, and was pulled out, cussed out, and handcuffed, police were called, and if not for the objection of the police, the child would have been arrested for TRESSPASSING.
The demons have been loosed on BBC, with the head demon, SG, directing them.
thanks karen, I did know you were being sarcastic...there are many reading this that probably really believe Matt 18 does not apply to pastors. That is the sad thing...they will believe what someone tells them without studying scripture.
Oh, and btw: Matt 18 only works with believers who have actual fruit. It does not work with people who are deceptive...professing christians with no fruit.
Watching History...
SG doesn't know or care about theology. That was a stupid statement about Calvinism but why would we be surprised???
He twists and turns scripture to suit his agenda.
karen,
I saw the crazy man try and attack Bro R....do not remember the guy getting punched....he was strongly put on the ground....I really don't think there was a punch. Don't remember a second person...just that they subdued him and Bro R prayed over him.
It was such a shocking sight.There were several men on top of the guy....and he MAY have actually touched Bro R....I remember the shock on Bro R's face. I was almost on the floor with shock and fear.
Even after Bro R EARNED his insulation...
he was reachable.
Everytime I wrote a letter...he responded.
He wrote my son a birthday letter for his 12 or 13th birthday...
because I asked.
SG would not even speak to the victim of his staff predator.
I have a Dr. Rogers story too, and I have never been a member of BBC, although I am familiar with Dr. Rogers through his LWF, Bible studies, etc...
I lost a dear friend of mine last summer to breast cancer. She had been in Dr. Rogers "chemo group". He went the same day every week she did. The way she described it, there would be several of them in one room, in big comfy lazy boy type chairs, hooked up to their medicine. She said they would give you IV meds that would make you very sleepy so the chemo wouldn't make you nauseated, and most people would just sleep. She said Dr. Rogers was always so sweet to everyone, praying for them, encouraging them, etc... He always stayed with the group, instead of getting a private room. She said he would talk to anyone, even if they woke him up. Finally, the doctor told him to bring someone to stay with him, so he could rest. So she said, he would talk and visit, then apologize that he had to rest and his companions would write down messages of people who had come by to speak to him.
I remember in his “What Every Christian Should Know” Bible study he said to judge a character of a man, watch him when he doesn’t think anyone is. Dr. Rogers said, don’t look at me by my actions here at church, I am on my best behavior here! You watch me, and others, outside of the church, and that’s how you see who we really are.
He was a dear man.
Karen,
Leonard Garland passed away a couple of years ago - unexpectedly. His dear wife, Peggy, has had a difficult time. She was a tour guide, but I don't know if she still is or not and she dearly loved Jason Tallent, who is now part of BBC history. She has lost a lot these past few years. Please take a moment and remember her in prayer.
Lin said...
A must read at team pyro today
http://teampyro.blogspot.com/
excellent read!
SG's Ph.D. dissertation was "An Analysis of the correlation between Representative Baptist Hour Sermons by Hershel H. Hobbs and Selected Articles of the Baptist Faith and Message"
I can't find any info about what this is (means) and is there anyone who knows?
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