Time is of the essence as the ordination is scheduled for this Sunday, February 25th!
A petition to postpone the ordination of David Coombs until certain questions are resolved is now available to sign at Postpone the Ordination.
The petition reads as follows:
Postpone the Ordination of David Coombs
In accordance that all things be done honestly in the sight of all men, we believe that there is a discrepancy between what had been reported to the Commercial Appeal concerning the openness of the records of the Church and the actual behavior that David Coombs has presented both by letter and personal contact.
In accordance with the mandate by the Church to leave "no stone unturned" in the investigation surrounding a case of sexual child abuse, we believe that David Coombs was negligent in failing to interview the victim.
By report of and the confirmation by witnesses of his response to a dear lady who confronted him with the statement, "Pedophilia thrives in secrecy," following the investigative report presented to the Church, we believe that David Coombs has exhibited a lack of compassion and empathy that is necessary for the ministry.
It is our conclusion that it would be in the best interest of Bellevue Baptist Church to postpone the ordination of David Coombs to the ministry. We are in agreement with these and other issues in whole or part and that has caused us to petition the church on this matter.
You may sign anonymously, but it would be preferable if you sign with your real names as anonymous signatures cannot be verified. A place to leave your comments is provided, and I would encourage everyone who signs to comment as well.
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552 comments:
1 – 200 of 552 Newer› Newest»David Coombs, you are taking part of something that will lead BBC into more trouble.
The problem with you David is that there is no correct way to justify wrong.
You have to be aware of the very large coverup that if allowed to continue will ruin your reputation and the reputation of Bellevue.
Bellevue Baptist Church is not the Catholic Church. I'm not sure what your background growing up was but Southern Baptist don't believe in secrecy.
You may have run a mulibillion dollar PRIVATE company where you could do anything you wanted but the Church is not a PRIVATE company.
When your company sold out recently, your shares in the company may have sold for $500,000 per share, but that will not allow you to have your way in the church.
God sees everything and He will continue to expose the wickedness that is now getting deeper rooted within Bellevue Baptist Church.
Do you really beleive that the church membership does not have the right to know how each dollar is spent inside the church?
Directors: John Addison, Jeff Arnold, Bruce Brooke, Chuck Fullerton, Tom McCormick, and Harold Shipman should be ashamed if you did in fact authorize David Coombs to sign his letter on your behalf. In the eyes of God, you are participating in something that is wrong. Secrecy in the church is wrong and you are now a part of the wrongdoing.
David, it's ashame you have to be notified of a recording so you can make sure you tell the truth. Remember that God records everything.
be patient said...
IDC is presuming to speak for the congregation- I should be allowed to know who is speaking for me.
That's not true - I don't presume to speak for anyone. I speak for me. If you want to say something, I'll gladly let IDC leaders know. You have my email address.
karen
be patient wrote:
"IDC is presuming to speak for the congregation- I should be allowed to know who is speaking for me."
IDC is not speaking for the whole congregation any more than you or Derrick Calcote or David Coombs or anyone else is. I'm capable of speaking for myself and hope that you are, too.
bepatient,
You are part of a group that has done things that affect Bellevue as well. You are one. The second was a secret for a while and then with a little help from his "friends" was exposed. The final one is a deep dark secret, why not share your information with us.
Your the one doing all the preaching, so....
Practice what YOU Preach.
Tim,
I don't really understand? If you mean my identity, ask and you shall receive- I only ask that you email me. I choose not to post my name on the internet where anyone can read it.
Tim, you mentioned a deep dark secret in the other thread. What is it you are referring to?
I would like to ask one question at this point...
Is David Coombs a man called of God to preach His word? Yes or no will do.
119 signatures on the petition and counting...BBC Leadership, are you listening to your sheep yet?
Karen
imaresistor,
I don't know David Coombs very well but I do not know of him ever preaching.
Is he a business man - yes!
Is he a preaching man - not that I know!
ima, I do not know, God did not run that by me before he did or did not call him to preach.
What happened to that whole pesky "attend seminary to become a pastor" thing?
Hey, I want a Marketing degree, but I betcha I won't get one just by asking for it. Honorary degree - maybe. But not something I've worked hard to attain on my own.
I'd love to hear from current seminary students - how does it feel to know your degree means nothing? If David Coombs wants to be know as a "pastor of paperwork", by all means ordain the man, but it's a hollow pastorate.
karen
Here are some things to consider regarding why they might want to ordain David Coombs:
1. Prestige -- To make him "look" more like a minister.
2. Money -- always follow it! He could, if he chooses, opt out of paying Social Security taxes which alone would be a 7.65% raise. At his age, he likely already has 40 quarters paid into SS, so he should already be eligible to draw his full SS anyway.
3. More money -- He could get a housing allowance, so he could take his house note (if his house isn't already paid for or the part of his payment which applies toward the prinicipal on his loan if he hasn't), his utilities, and home insurance off his adjusted gross income. Let's say this comes to $3000 a month, a conservative estimate at best and a number chosen solely for the sake of illustration, this would mean his taxable income would go down as much as $36,000 per year.
Let’s say, for example, his gross salary is $150,000 annually (a conservative estimate, no doubt) and that his AGI would have been $100,000 per year pre-ordination, and that he pays 25% in taxes. With a housing allowance of $36,000 and the savings from not having to pay SS, he would have just received an annual raise of up to (11,475 from SS + 9,000 from the tax break on the housing allowance) a total of $20,475 after taxes. And that's all assuming these changes don't put him in a lower tax bracket. Bellevue wins, too, because they no longer have to pay the other 7.65% of his SS. Everyone wins!
None of this is illegal, but it is "working the system." How many people at Bellevue realize with this ordination they could potentially be giving David Coombs a $20,000+ raise after less than two months on the job? How many hard-working, tithing members of Bellevue don't even make $20,000 a year?
Phil Newberry, Minister of Students, didn't go to seminary. Should we revoke his ordination?
bob barker,
I would not ask that question to a lot of folks right now.
I would not bring others into the David Coombs issue.
You will be opening a can of worms you may not want to open.
I not here to argue with you. I'm just saying.
People here are saying that Coombs shouldn't be ordained and one of the reasons is because he hasn't gone to seminary. Phil is one of the godliest men I know and I'm proving a point that you don't have to go to seminary...that isn't a requirement. So people like Karen need to back off with that point.
Let me ask this again as I posted yesterday...
Why have we had so many "ministers" serving on staff who could not preach a sermon if they had to? If we are going to have business men on staff instead of true pastors who have studied and prepared to be preachers, then why don't we be forthright and call them that instead of "Associate Pastor", "Executive Senior Pastor", etc.? I think it's deceptive and improper, and it certainly gives the wrong mental image. "Ordaining" somebody doesn't change somebody into a pastor. No wonder people get upset when the Associate Pastor or Executive Associate Pastor don't know how to handle certain situations in a kind, loving, and Christian manner. These guys are not pastors! It's pretty shocking when the "pastor" turns out to be a hard-nosed grouch or a bull-headed blowhard. Now, I'm not pointing any fingers at any particular person, but if the shoe fits--wear it. My main point, though, is WHY? There are a lot of fellows out there taking the time to study the Word of God at MABTS--just right across the street from BBC--and they probably can't even find a church to minister in when they get done; while on the other hand, we've got Good Buddy Bob (not intended to be a real name) over there who needs a JOB because he doesn't like the insurance business anymore or the company sold out or closed down so we just give them a position because we think they're nice. I believe in being charitable; but, brothers and sisters, we have a higher calling and one that carries a life-or-death responsibility with it. This is serious--more serious than any job on earth I can think of. Picking out favorites or somebody's son or best friend and making them a pastor by ordaining them is not being responsible. One must be a good steward as the pastor-picker, too. Being a pea-picker and a pastor-picker are two way different jobs. However, I'm not saying either that a person should be disqualified for being a friend, a son, or your personal pea-picker--just that it should not be the only reason for being hired at a church as a pastor. I also don't think sending them to seminary AFTER we let them have a position as a pastor should be acceptable either. In my mind that's cheating. Even though God allowed Enoch and Elijah to enter heaven without seeing death here on earth, well, HE is GOD. WE are not so endowed to see a man's heart. We need to stop this practice at Bellevue. I don't know what questions, if any, that the search committee asked Steve Gaines or anybody else (if there was anybody else); but next time I think I would like to be on that committee and do the asking part--not because I'm so good--but because then I'll know it got done. I can pray, too. (In fact I have already gotten an answer to prayer about who the next pastor should be and I don't even know him--not yet, anyway.) I would also ask a lot of questions of the sheep of His old flock/flocks about how he treated them and other important things(good background checks). If the one who was brought to you turned out to be incapable or negligent or less than forthright with us or just plain ole bad, then he would be gone, gone, gone. I have another good idea, too. I'll get to it later.
JESUS IS LORD AND I LOVE HIM!
Dee Richardson
bob barker wrote:
"People here are saying that Coombs shouldn't be ordained and one of the reasons is because he hasn't gone to seminary."
Personally, that one's way down near the bottom of my list. There are plenty of godly, ordained ministers that haven't gone to seminary. And there are plenty who have gone to seminary that don't meet the standard either.
P.S. Didn't you have some photos you were going to send me last month? I never got those.
And what pray tell Mrs. New BBC Forum has that length tax dialog got to do with anything? I can attest that David is not doing this for the financial reward but because he feels lead to do God's work. Your assumptions only show ignorance of David's desire in serving our church. Trust me when I say that money is not the motivator for David Coombs. All the things you've mentioned was available to Dr. Rogers and other ministers in our country.
By the way Dr. Rogers hired numerous men to the ministry that was not educated via the seminary. Phil Newberry has been mentioned but Phil Weatherwax, Bob Sorrell, Mark Daughtery, and Greg Addison come to my mind immediately. Where were you when these men were being ordained? You can't have it both ways...it was either wrong then and now or it was right then and now.
b-barker,
The reasons people think it would be better for David Coombs to not be ordained at this time have nothing to do with Rev. Newberry. Don't confuse the issues. Rev. Newberry has not been seen purchashing wine at a local restaurant. Rev. Newberry has not sent an arrogant letter out to the sheep he will be over misusing the Scripture. Rev. Newberry has not laughed in the face of a dear lady who happens to be a member of Bellevue and who was deeply hurt over the PW issue. Rev. Newberry has not made a statement that he is not interested in what Tennessee Law says. Rev. Newberry has not made inacurate statments to the congregation and media to cover up wrongdoing.
I hope you can see the difference.
ezekiel, it should be noted that those who have served and worked along side David Coombs at Bellevue attest to his charater as one of high integrity. Those who only know him from this forum and what they've read are the ones who attack his character.
May I ask you...who would best know your true character...friends and family who have know you for many many years or people who heard of you just a few months ago?
Next you will see the posts of those who seem to be able to attest to one's true character by imaginary thinking. I have been associated with David through Church in many activities. He is truly a man of high character.
Bob Barker,
If Phil Newberry has already proven himself as a Spirit-filled minister to the youth at Bellevue, then, of course, he should not now be disqualified. As a matter of fact, I have seen some pretty raunchy, unholy men go to seminary, get ordained and disgrace the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. They were not Spirit-filled men. Since we, as regular men and not God, cannot see the heart of men, we may occasionally pick the wrong fellow for the job even if he has been to seminary. What I am saying is MOST of the men who take the time to study the Word of God in seminary are more likely to be serious about the Lord and teaching others. Of course, those who hire and ordain should do all they can to ensure, as much as is humanly possible, that the man they are hiring is Spirit-filled and expresses a desire to love, honor, and serve Jesus in obedience to His Word. That's all.
Dee
Just My Opinion said,
Phil Weatherwax, Bob Sorrell, Mark Daughtery, and Greg Addison come to my mind immediately. Where were you when these men were being ordained?
Let's see now. Have you seen the letter Phil Weatherwax sent Josh Manning?
Let's see now. Mark Dougharty is in the middle of the dream issue, has told numerous people he doesn't remember saying the pastor had a dream but if he did, then he must have. Mark Dougharty has told people for years that Bellevue didn't even have By-laws, that they didn't exist. Then he said "well, we have them but don't go by them." Mark Dougharty is the one who kicked Mark Sharpe off the Deacon board without the church congregation voting.
I'd say that at least 2 out of the 4 don't qualify for being a pastor in my book.
JMO
You keep showing up here and defending David Coombs' character.
Please explain why David issued a report and called it thorough after refusing testimony from the witness five times?
Why is he concealing information that should be legally available to the church body?
If I were his friend, I would be so grieved over this.
You have yet to address this.
truth or lie?
Hey I like your name and the test that you post. I think that I've just completed the last one. I have enjoyed separating the truths from the lies.
Why do innocent, godly men keep getting dragged through the muck? Ones who serve as role models for the children, no less. First Steve McCune, now Phil Newberry.
If anyone has any questions about Mr. Newberry's call to ministry, why not ask the thousands - THOUSANDS - of children who have come through his youth ministry and find one who questions his calling or has bad feelings towards him.
You won't.
carefully watching...
AMEN!
Dee
Hope
I think someone brought up Phil Newberry precisely because he HAS proven himself but was not ordained. I don't think anyone brought him up to slam him but to show that seminary is not required for a godly man to be ordained....
Bob Barker,
For your information, Phil Newberry went to Arkansas Tech then went to seminary for 1 1/2 years before being called to a church. He has earned his pastor title through on the job training. He has has spent his life devoted to students and has made a huge impact on my life. I've known Phil since the day he came to Bellevue (I was in 11th grade) and I will go to my grave defending one of my personal heroes of the faith.
My point was not to bash those who truly have had a call from the Lord to be pastors - my point was that on a whim (Steve Gaines whim), David Coombs (who admits he has no experience, or on the job training as a minister) can get ordained. Whose next, Donna Gaines? Hey, it's been talked about - I'm not talking about something I've just thought up.
karen
Hope,
Go back and look at the post where the Phil Newberry question first came into play. I don't think anybody here thinks Phil Newberry should be dq'd.
Dee
PS. It was posed by bob barker at 2:22 PM today. It was merely a hypothetical question.
I think Phil Newberry is a Godly man who was called into the ministry. That doesn't mean he is perfect, I went through the youth group and I can personally testify to some poor decisions he made and hurtful words that have come from his mouth. But is he a man of God? Absolutely.
I would be curious to know how many people signing that petition have actually had a real conversation with the DC?
Hope,
Who slammed Steve McCune? I don't want gossip, but I can't find where he was brought up before you did. Thanks!
Karen
Several are saying that DC is a personal friend and a man of integrity. I would attest that I thought that I knew several of leadership well. I have ministered alongside quite a few of them in more than one ministry, yet my respect for them is lost now through their actions over the past months. This has been very difficult. I did not know SG until he came to Bellevue. I have known these other men for many years, and I can hardly believe what my eyes are seeing, yet I am seeing quite clearly. It makes me sad. I may have known and ministered alongside these men and trusted them totally, but I cannot and will not defend their actions of late.
esther,
You're totally right - This ordination would give Steve Gaines another "firewall" for people to get through. He won't dirty his hands - and then one hand doesn't have to know what the other is doing. Then when another scandal comes along, Steve can blame the "minister" and still be off scot-free. I see how this works - get as many scapegoats as you can, tell them all half truths and leave them holding the bag when another scandal raises its ugly head.
karen
searchingfortruth,
I feel sorry for you - and I hope you can endure. It's kind of like "Invasion of the Body Snatchers", huh?
karen
I love my Lord.
I love my Church.
I love my Pastor.
I love David Coombs.
It is my conviction that the Lord as called him into service at our church at this critical time in our history.
May the Lord Jesus protect him from those who seek to impugn this Godly man's character.
Derrick Calcote
"I think Phil Newberry is a Godly man who was called into the ministry. That doesn't mean he is perfect, I went through the youth group and I can personally testify to some poor decisions he made and hurtful words that have come from his mouth. But is he a man of God? Absolutely."
That is gossip and slander!
Truth or Lies? Thank you for a decent answer to my simple question.
Memphis...why such a sarcastic answer to a simple question? Is God in the habit of getting your approval or 'running things by you'?
Is this man a preacher or not? If he intends to shuffle paper...he is a business man; someone in the administrative field. If he is intended to stand in the pulpit with a Bible in his hand and preach the word, he is a preacher. There is a huge difference. Which one is he? From what Truth or Lie? says, he must not be a preacher. From what Memphis says, she doesn't know because God hasn't told her yet?
Has David Coombs taught a Sunday School class? What has he done that is parallel to a man of God, meaning of course a minister.
Will you as the Body of Christ be able to respect this man as a man of cloth? If not, there is a huge problem. Everybody needs to ask themself this question...not just the resistors.
Did David Coombs and Steve Gaines know each other prior to SG coming to Bellevue? Did they have a mutual friend? Was David Coombs trying to put into place the 40 Days of Purpose or did he oppose it? Was he part of the power group that signed onto the Willow Creek Association? Who was?
Memphis, it certainly wasn't my intention to offend when I asked this simple question. I truly am sorry you took offense to it.
Ima
So...I have to ask this now. Does Bellevue make a habit of ordaining businessmen? Is this something new that is going on in the churches these days that I have missed? I just find it to be highly unusual?
New BBC Open Forum
One does not have to be ordained to opt out of soc. sec. Licensing will do if there is no significant difference in the duties allowed by licensure and ordination. An explanation must be made to the IRS on the application form and it MUST be for reasons of religious objection to social security, not just to save money.
To my knowledge, licensing ALWAYS precedes ordination, and must be done at a called business meeting and recorded by the church clerk with the state of TN. That allows the minister to perform weddings, funerals, etc.
Someone has to call the congregation to order in a business prior to an ordination to officially license DC. That is the way I see it.
derrick,
Did David Coombs say he wasn't interested in what the TN Law says?
Is it your opinion that churches should not follow the laws of the land. We are not talking about the law making the church do something against the scripture.
This attitude from David Coombs is concerning to me. By the way, is David Coombs running Belleuve now? Where is Mark Doughtry?
sorry esther...
I am simply telling my opinion hence the words "I think". And as far as his actions that I personally witnessed, that is because they happened to ME and were witnessed by many others. So I can document those facts as needed. The rest is my opinion.
karen,
It was a couple of threads ago, but someone at a deacon's meeting got irritated with Steve McCune. Steve led the group in song and encouraged those who were standing in the back of the room talking to join in. The person took great exception to that, and decided to vent here instead of following Matthew 18 and going to him privately. His posts were appropriately deleted, and Steve's character and behavior were thoroughly confirmed to be above reproach by other bloggers.
Bellevue is full of godly, faithful, Christian people (like Phil and Steve), which is precisely what makes it a church worth saving.
"I am simply telling my opinion hence the words "I think". And as far as his actions that I personally witnessed, that is because they happened to ME and were witnessed by many others. So I can document those facts as needed. The rest is my opinion."
Why put it on the blog and hurt this man's reputation?
Did David Coombs record his meeting with Josh Manning?
Did Steve Gaines record his meeting with Mark Sharpe and Richard Emerson and their wives?
Does David Coombs record his phone calls with those questioning the church?
If anyone has the answers we would like to know.
If DC is the droll dude with the monotone locution--the one that delivered the lame PCIR to the congregation--then the man is deserving of our sympathy, not contempt, if God has indeed called him to be a preacher. Poor fella--maybe it's payback--haha.
Maybe he'll grow into those shoes though, and gosh darn it, don't you know his apologists here only wish you had as much faith as they do. I wish I had that much faith--I wish, I wish, I wish.
You should have the faith, so too, that (Dr) Padre will grow into the kind of person that, when confronted with a pedophile in his midst, he'll have the common horse-sense to get off his (chair) and do something; anything. What's wrong with you people? Anyone could have made that mistake.
From where I'm sitting, I've never seen any of these humph-harrumphers direct the snide, acid-washed sanctimony at real crimes, coverups and doublespeak authored by their beloved leadership. Well, somebody called for an open business meeting, with no qualifier--big whoop.
(I called for chocolate ice cream for everyone, but they didn't go for that either. It's the thought that counts.)
Why worry about any of this bilge when we gots real sin on this 'chere blog in the form of (eek!) gossip. Forget the pedophiles and lawyers already. (eek!)
Anyway, my two cents.
Cakes
PS-I quote Bratton thusly, and like so:
"...I quote thusly, and like so."
"Bellevue is full of godly, faithful, Christian people (like Phil and Steve), which is precisely what makes it a church worth saving"
Hope, I read the letter Phil Weatherwax wrote to Josh. If that man is a godly man then I am Madonna.
I was stunned to learn he is a minister on staff there. The letter was dripping with sneering accusations, arrogance, condescention and hate. There is NO excuse for that from a 'minister'. He should know better but obviously he doesn't. And he put it on paper for prosterity, too! Shameful!
NFORMATION REQUEST Re-Posted from other thread...not much response from there.
Thanks for the financial information posted regarding the past two years' budgets. The request to compare it to the one from 3 years ago is a good request. Someone reading and/or posting here knows the numbers and in light of the focus on finding out specifics, why not post them here? I don't mean budget numbers, I mean position numbers in comparison to previous ones.
One specific question is that if the administration was cut by three employees (Smith, McQuiston, and Powell) then how could there have been an increase? I'm just throwing that out there.
BSF numbers...a pro-SG casual attendee stated to me that we have many hundred more attending, even thousands more. Where is that coming from and specifically, what are the numbers on attendance over the past 18 months compared to the prior 18 months?
I would appreciate receiving it in an e-mail in addition to a post if you can. Thank you in advance!
lwood
80 ushers have resigned? How many total ushers were there before their resignations and have there been replacements?
I am not hurting his reputation- he did say something hurtful to me. That is a fact. But he doesn't have to be afraid of someone saying that he doesn't always handle things perfectly, because of his history of integrity.
My point is this- you accept PN to be an honorable man of integrity(which he is, let there be no mistake about my opinion of that) but I can testify to the fact that he is not always "blameless" or "patient".
How do you decide who and when to apply the standard to- why does it make it okay for some men to fall from this standard and not others? To me it goes back to who they are as a whole person and if the good they do outweighs the bad.
"To me it goes back to who they are as a whole person and if the good they do outweighs the bad."
Just curious...is this how you think Jesus will judge us in the end?
To me it goes back to who they are as a whole person and if the good they do outweighs the bad.
Unfortunately that is not the standard imposed by Scripture. Bellevue must go back to following Scripture instead of the weak reasoning of men.
"I am not hurting his reputation- he did say something hurtful to me. That is a fact. But he doesn't have to be afraid of someone saying that he doesn't always handle things perfectly, because of his history of integrity. "
I disagree. He is not the topic here and never has been. What you did was gossip and slander. It is not a question of him being 'perfect' as you so love to say all the time.
IMA said: Memphis...why such a sarcastic answer to a simple question? Is God in the habit of getting your approval or 'running things by you'?
It was not sarcasm. I do not know what God has laid on anyone's heart, and neither does anyone else.
And just so you know, Memphis is a He, not a she.
"It was not sarcasm. I do not know what God has laid on anyone's heart, and neither does anyone else."
HELLO! Earth to professing Christians...this is why we have SCRIPTURE.
esther,
I am not Jesus. I have to do the best I can to discern with my human reasoning and God's prompting. So that is not really worth comparing. God is not judging DC, human beings are.
proverbs,
the standard calls for one to be "blameless"... Do you truly believe that all Godly ministers are "blameless"?
Thank you Karen - thank goodnesss, Jesus has never nor will HE ever disappoint me. Ultimately, Bellevue is HIS church, and He will deal with her - wait - I think He already is!
Since he headed the personnel commitee's investigation, might the veracity, transparency and responsible actions drawn from their report give some indication of his qualifications in leadership?
Bepatient said...
esther,
I am not Jesus. I have to do the best I can to discern with my human reasoning and God's prompting. So that is not really worth comparing. God is not judging DC, human beings are.
proverbs,
the standard calls for one to be "blameless"... Do you truly believe that all Godly ministers are "blameless"?
3:42 PM, February 20, 2007
Girlfriend, you are so way off base with the basics it is impossible to know where to start.
God is Judging ALL of us and He is doing it according to what is in HIS WORD.
PS: I don't think you are 'feeling' God's prompting when you make a statement like that. You had best get into the Word before it is toooo late.
Scripture says our hearts our deceitful, don't trust it!!! So we best get into the Word. or, we could be following the leading of the Angel of Light.
offline...this is depressing
Folks, never trust your heart. Sola Scriptura.
esther,
"Girlfriend, you are so way off base with the basics it is impossible to know where to start.
PS: I don't think you are 'feeling' God's prompting when you make a statement like that. You had best get into the Word before it is toooo late."
Well, I think that will bring our conversation to a close. I have not gotten personal with you, and if you can't disagree with me without attacking my relationship with God, then so be it.
Hope,
Thanks for the info. I hate that that happened to Steve McCune. That's why I'm glad I've always been known by my real name. That way I can be accountable for what I say here and no one can accuse me of talking behind someone's back.
karen
Bepatient,
I am not going to respond to you any more after this. Instead I will be praying for you. I pray you will get in the Word. Read it first thing in the morning and last thing at night. Meditate on it every moment you can in between.
You advocate the weak theology others in Bellevue leadership advocate. We have leaders who did not believe Paul Williams should be removed from ministry. Some have even discussed restoring him to his job. That won't happen because it would be too explosive. Just a few days before he was fired, the pastor reiterated to Paul that his sin was "under the blood." Those leaders believe we can't hold anyone to the standards of Scripture. I and many others disagree.
The question I have is why? Why do they (and you) not believe in the scriptural standards for ministry? Why don't you take those standards as seriously as the rest of us?
I don't know your answer. I wonder if some in leadership know they don't measure up themselves. Does our pastor measure up or is there something disqualifying in his past? I hear he may have his own problem.
In the case of David Coombs, I don't know what he has done throughout his life. I do know what he has done in the few weeks he has been in his position at Bellevue. Right now he still proverbial blood dripping from his hands. He presided over that sham of an investigation and then just last week he sent every member of our church a letter he will surely come to regret. We've all heard him say he does not care what Tennessee law says.
You and Derrick and all others professing your love for him should go to him and implore him to hold off on ordination. He is in no way ready or qualified (I am not talking about seminary).
God prompts us through scripture. But God also gave us a brain and the ability to use it. We all use human reason all the time, it is not wrong, you just have to make sure it is not all you are using to lead your life and that it is not in conflict with God's word.
and before anyone harps on me saying that it is not wrong to use human reasoning,
I believe there is a difference between reasoning and following our carnal "heart".
I alway figured God wouldn't give you something like common-sense, only to have you going around arguing with it all the time.
well, in the past two days I have been called Hillary Clinton-like, a sycophant, and have been told I need to read the Word (I can only assume you think I don't or you wouldn't be telling me to do it).
As much as I appreciate your concern for spiritual life, I think I will take a break for a while.
If you are really concerned with the state of my salvation or relationship with God, I don't know why you would approach it in this way?
David S,
Wow's allowed here as long as it is not followed by "sad."
Just for the edification of those who were asking.
No David does not regularly teach a BFC but he does substitute teach.
No David has not preached at Bellevue but he has preached on mission trips in a number of churches.
I have personally heard David teach and he has an excellent knowledge of the Word of God. David has certainly challenged me through his teachings to strive for a more Christ like way of living.
David has shown himself to be very knowledgeable as to the Words of God. He does keep God's Words in his heart.
I sincerely have nothing to gain by posting these things about David. He is not aware that I post and would be the first to admonish me if I told him that I was posting to his defense. He stands on God's Word and certainly doesn't need my meager words spoken in his defense. I have never known anyone who has known David Coombs for any length of time to say anything unkind about David. Nor I have ever heard David speak unkindly or untruthfully about others.
Some of you think that David was trying to cover up the PW situation by not speaking with CW. The situation didn't need any further involvement since the committee had enough information to make it's decisions. I know that Chuck Hanaford was seeking more from the church and yes something more should have been done in rebuking and reconciliation. But David's charge at the time was to determine PW's future and the failures on the part of the staff. The investigation addressed those issues. And at the time that is what had been asked of David to accomplish.
Concerning the 'above Tennessee law' comment that is being tossed about. I think if you would ask David (and it was obvious to me from hearing the tape) that the comment was that he didn't care what Josh's view of the Tennessee law was. You should know that at the time that David and Josh met that David had been well versed by legal council as to the laws expectations of Bellevue church. But that is why we have lawyers to argue these sides in court. I am sure that if IDC,inc. has attorneys with a different opinion then we will see a motion filed in court.
bepatient,
I am not questioning your salvation or suggesting you do not read the Bible. Instead I am suggesting you do not take the standards for ministry as seriously as you should. This is a serious matter, not something to be trifled with or taken lightly.
If you give this topic the careful consideration it deserves, it might go a long way toward you understanding why we feel the way we feel about Steve Gaines, David Coombs, Mark Dougharty, Phil Weatherwax, and others in question.
Memphis...sorry about the gender thing. You are Mr. Memphis, not Ms. Memphis. When I was a small child, I knew an elderly woman named Memphis...guess it stuck. The stigma remains.
Perhaps CEO would coin the title for Mr. Coombs. This all just seems highly unusual to me. Normally, it would seem to me that a man being ordained would be for the ministry. Not as an administrative position. I just find that very strange and, yes...unbiblical. Maybe this is just part of the change that has been ushered in with the church growth movement paradign. Whatever it takes; whatever works. The Warren camp. I find it to be very sad, indeed.
Anyway, didn't mean to be offensive in my post, either in context or gender. Hope you do understand that. I just found your tone to be a little abrasive in your reply to my post in stating that 'God didn't run that by you'. Just sounded a little disrespectful to God actually...not to me necessarily. But I am sure you didn't mean to imply in those terms.
I had asked a couple of things that nobody has replied to and I really think it is important. Let me post them here again. Maybe you will be kind enough to make mention of these answers to me?
Did David Coombs and Steve Gaines know each other prior to SG coming to Bellevue? Did they have a mutual friend? Was David Coombs trying to put into place the 40 Days of Purpose or did he oppose it? Was he part of the power group that signed onto the Willow Creek Association? Who was?
Thanks for responding. It is really looking stormy in my part of the woods. How does it look where you are?
Ima
LWOOD
3rdsidesaid
80 ushers have resigned? How many total ushers were there before their resignations and have there been replacements?
3:33 PM, February 20, 2007
Just getting back on line and catching up Busy blog today.....
I believe there is about 200 ushers and yes they are trying to get replacements...The point being tho is that many of these are the older ushers that have served Bellevue for years...Being at Most any event they needed ushers for.I remember most from OLD BELLEVUE downtown...
just my opinion said,
"He is not aware that I post and would be the first to admonish me if I told him that I was posting to his defense. He stands on God's Word and certainly doesn't need my meager words spoken in his defense. I have never known anyone who has known David Coombs for any length of time to say anything unkind about David. Nor I have ever heard David speak unkindly or untruthfully about others."
You know JMO...this sounds much like the wife of David Coombs might sound? Are you the wife of David Coombs? Related? You surely seem to know a whole lot about this man and express how he might/might not feel about certain things.
Esther said...
"Bellevue is full of godly, faithful, Christian people (like Phil and Steve), which is precisely what makes it a church worth saving"
Hope, I read the letter Phil Weatherwax wrote to Josh. If that man is a godly man then I am Madonna.
easter wrote at 3:30
Just for info:
We have 2 Phil's ....One being Phil Newberry and one being the Phil Weatherwax
Need to Put a last name so as not to mix them up:)
"For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, nor hidden that will not be known.
Therefore whatever you have spoken in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have spoken in the ear in inner rooms will be proclaimed on the housetops."
Luke 12:2-3
Sounds like the Lord Jesus was all for transparency, light and truth.
3rdside said...
"NFORMATION REQUEST Re-Posted from other thread...not much response from there.
Thanks for the financial information posted regarding the past two years' budgets. The request to compare it to the one from 3 years ago is a good request. Someone reading and/or posting here knows the numbers and in light of the focus on finding out specifics, why not post them here? I don't mean budget numbers, I mean position numbers in comparison to previous ones.
One specific question is that if the administration was cut by three employees (Smith, McQuiston, and Powell) then how could there have been an increase? I'm just throwing that out there."
*******
Yes, I wanted to know, too. Maybe, "deacon that's a beacon" will be back with the information pretty soon. It was about this time or a little later yesterday that he came on here and told us the 2006-07 and the 2007-08 numbers. I sure hope he saw my request and I am still waiting to see if he was able to get them for us. It could be very interesting to say the least.
Dee
imaresistor said...
"You know JMO...this sounds much like the wife of David Coombs might sound? Are you the wife of David Coombs? Related? You surely seem to know a whole lot about this man and express how he might/might not feel about certain things."
*******
Ima, I have always thought that "just my opinion" sounded like a woman talking and arguing, too. Strange you thought she might be the wife of DC, and I bet you didn't look at the profile that shows her/him as a MALE.
Dee
hope said...
"Bellevue is full of godly, faithful, Christian people (like Phil and Steve), which is precisely what makes it a church worth saving"
esther said...
Hope, I read the letter Phil Weatherwax wrote to Josh. If that man is a godly man then I am Madonna.
For the record, I don't know Phil Weatherwax except by reputation.
I was refering to Phil Newberry, who I've known for years. I don't want to see him dragged into fray.
Let's leave Madonna out of it, too.
2006huldah...
Tell you what...I'm going to take my paper dolls and go home! Seems I can't tell the girls from the boys! Wouldn't Ken and Barbie be upset with me!
Just so you'll know Dee...I checked your profile to be sure you are the lady I thought I'd been conversing with all this while. You'll be glad to know that you are.
So, now that I have crowned JMO the bride of David Coombs, think I'll go and start dinner. Perhaps I'll do a better job in the kitchen. :)
Remember though, the gender is wrong but the message stands.
2006 huldah wrote: "Ima, I have always thought that "just my opinion" sounded like a woman talking and arguing, too. Strange you thought she might be the wife of DC, and I bet you didn't look at the profile that shows her/him as a MALE."
Dee, I will accept that as a back handed compliment. I have many an employee accuse me of being an overbearing brute. I am glad to know that I've shown a softer side in my postings. I've tried not to be so authoritive sounding as many who misuse the Scriptures in their arguments. I don't see our church situation as one side being totally right and the other being totally wrong. What you may have meant to be demeaning in the comparision does not provoke me. I know that I've spoken my opinion in a truthful way. I may have challenge some to be accountable to the truth but seldom have I made personal attacks on one's character.
As for those who are wondering if I am related to David Coombs. The answer is affirmative in that we are brothers. We have a very large family with numerous brothers and sisters. In fact our family plans on living together for eternity. Maybe if we all realized our Father is the same then we would be more respectful of each other.
JMO said, "Maybe if we all realized our Father is the same then we would be more respectful of each other."
JMO...you are exactly right. I whole heartedly agree with you. This is why it has been so difficult for me to understand why the leadership of the church is so determined to actually manipulate people out of their church of a lifetime in order to bring in a movement such as WCA and PDM.
There is no respect in these movements. Only pain.
Hope, I read the letter Phil Weatherwax wrote to Josh. If that man is a godly man then I am Madonna.
Amen to that. Don't make me turn into Oprah again...
esther said...
Hope, I read the letter Phil Weatherwax wrote to Josh. If that man is a godly man then I am Madonna.
hope said:
For the record, I don't know Phil Weatherwax except by reputation.
I was refering to Phil Newberry, who I've known for years. I don't want to see him dragged into the fray.
Let's leave Madonna out of it, too.
5:36 PM, February 20, 2007
socwork said...
esther,
Amen to that. Don't make me turn into Oprah again...
What, now we're dragging Oprah into it? I don't like where this is going!
Hope,
Will you email me? I've been trying to get in touch with you.
Faith
AAAhhhh. It's Socwork Winfrey!
Guys, I think we need to really think about what we are saying and what we say to each other. First we know that our current administration is on the verge of destroying our church. Next we know in due time they will be gone (praying, hoping). I believe that SG is destroying the reputation of our good Christian leaders. I believe that Jamie Fish was put in a lose-lose situation. Don't get me wrong, he had to chose for himself. But still SG and crew played a big part it the whole thing. Having JF to go into Mark Sharpe SS class and try to teach was wrong. Also do anyone know the real truth on how Dr. Whitmire was treated during his last SCT performances at Bellevue? I do. No office to work in. Working out of his car. Enough to make me want to cry. And then SG comes to us Sunday after Sunday with skim milk instead of a deep, enriched word from God. I really don't know how much more I can take.
JMO, YOu can defend your friend all you want. Facts remain: He has chosen to be a part of the cover up and deception at BBC. He chose to ignore scripture. he chose to ignore law.
Your coming here and saying he has integrity does nothing to change facts. It's like I wanted to tell Bill Clinton: There is no excuse good enough to explain it all away. Yet, he came up with every excuse known to man and his many friends from James Carville and Paul Begalla went on every show to tell us what a wonderful man he was and many believed it. Yet, the facts remain: Clinton was a liar and a reprobate. At least he was only a president and did not have to have the qualifications of a minister.
By way: What are Coombs' job duties going to be?
"I believe there is a difference between reasoning and following our carnal "heart"."??????"
Thanks Ez. There is only a heart of flesh or a heart of stone. There is only saved or lost, goats or sheep.
All hearts are carnal. That is why we need the Word and the Holy Spirit as believers.
By the way, Isn't it funny how the word 'reasoning' hardly appears in anything until the enlightenment?
bepatient wrote"God prompts us through scripture. But God also gave us a brain and the ability to use it. We all use human reason all the time, it is not wrong, you just have to make sure it is not all you are using to lead your life and that it is not in conflict with God's word. "
bepatient, God does not want us to be independent from Him for one millisecond. He is a Jealous God. It took me years to realize this. But the wording of scriptures such as: Walking in the Light, Abiding in Him and Vine and Branches...all connotate a continous, never stopping for one second relationship. It really is that way. Even down to what groceries to buy. (Whatever you do, do it to the Glory of God. That means HE gets the Glory for everything and if we are not abiding in Him continuously, that cannot happen)
It is very hard to live that way but that is what we are to do. We think our 'reason' comes from God but we are fallen man, totally depraved after the fall. But we think we are smart.
This morning, JMO posted this:
SOTL posted:
"I have posted nothing that is not true. Please state what I have said about DC that is not true."
SOTL posted: (in reference to David Coombs)
"He has not ONE OUNCE of integrity. NOT ONE."
SOTL, I consider the second posted to be an untruth and very much a slander against a man of God. I know that David has integrity.
SOTL says:
JMO, again, for the umpteenth time:
Based on my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with David Coombs, he has not once ounce of integrity.
THAT is my opinion, BASED ON MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH HIM.
Just becuase you don't agree or like what I have to say about him, doesn't make it slander. By the way, when it's TRUTH, it's not slander.
There are witnesses to what he did to me. They have posted that on here, yet you continue to ignore the FACTS!!!!
David S.
This morning, The Lord woke me and told me that I was to apologize to you for saying that you and D.C. could be friends.
It was uncalled for and I apologize to you.
truthseeker,
Please expound on the horrors bestowed on Dr Whitmire. Those that are worshiping Jamie Parker need to know what price was paid for his position of glory, honor and praise.
There are those in the church with position, power, authority and credentials that need to make a stand. There are many, many members in the church who are sitting on their hands, afraid to speak up. Staff, Deacons, Former Staff, BFC teachers, Choir Members, RETIRED STAFF and their WIVES!!!
At what point will the wounds be bloody enough for you to act???
If DC is ordained and I die a week later, would ya'll please make sure that he doesn't do my funeral?
Thanks.
SOTL, well what it is? Is it your opinion or as you continued on saying...the TRUTH? You meet someone in passing and have better discernment than someone who has known and fellow-shipped with this person for over 15 years. You've questioned my integrity because I stand for a man whom I've known. Have you not any love or compassion for a brother in Christ? And does Christ not advise us on how best to handle this situation? Has your way of handling this been Christ like?
JMO,
Let me get this straight:
I am to love and feel compassion for a man that LAUGHED IN MY FACE?
Yeah, that's reasonable.
1st Chronicles 29:11 Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.
12 Both riches and honour come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all.
13 Now therefore, our God, we thank thee, and praise thy glorious name.
a certain bbc member
"Your kid"? I bet you are a mere kid yourself, probably a friend of Ace or Ace himself.
Get ready to be deleted amigo!!
You have just been reported to the blog police!!!
Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness
JMO wrote: " Have you not any love or compassion for a brother in Christ? "
Funny, I was wondering the same thing about PW's son and how he was treated by your leaders.qz
A certain BBC member wrote:
SickOfTheLikes AKA Stephanie Haake: the apology you wrote was nice.
Stephanie writes:
Are you proud of yourself now? Do you think that you are clever, letting the entire world know who I am and how I was sexually abused as a child?
Does this make you happy?
Is this what the Steve Gaines Defenders are all about?
Just so you won't get to get any more satisfaction out of your childish and cruel act, here goes:
Hello, My name is Stephanie Haake.
When I was 3, my father lined us up against the wall with a gun on several occasions and threatend to kill us.
After my mother left him, a few years later, she married a man that would later brutally rape me for many years.
So, Certain, are you just so pleased with yourself now?
Why don't you go and tell Steve Gaines what you have done on here tonight so that you two can share a good laugh.
So go ahead..call me by my name. The shame i live with as a victim of abuse is nothing compared to the shame that you should be feeling now.
Stephanie Haake
Psalms 2:10 ¶ Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
piglet,
The blog police needs to notify the petition police - seems the "things" have aspired to be nascar drivers and are bent on causing wrecks on the track:)
SOTL wrote: "I am to love and feel compassion for a man that LAUGHED IN MY FACE?"
YES...don't think that Jesus was being conditional when He said "love one another", He was pretty serious as He asked God to forgive those who were crucifying Him. Seems that the numbers 7 times 70 come to mind concerning forgiveness. So what about loving and forgiveness do you not understand? I am not trying to be cute but holding you accountable for your words and actions. And for the record..I do love you SOTL!
Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
SOTL,
JMO has exhibited some of the same characteristics as DC. Do not be surprised if he is one and the same. That would account for his cold dead heartless attack.
jmo
Since you have decided to ADMONISH me for not loving DC as he laughed in my face and then denied it to me and my witnesses 5 minutes later...tell me this: how have you admonished HIM for what he did to me?
mom4,
Funny, I have been thinking the same thing.
This is what I know:
I know that Jesus knows who you are and what you do to his children.
What you may think that you get by with here, at this time, on this earth...you aren't getting away with anything. You will one day be called to answer.
I do not, for one minute, think that Jesus would have expected me to walk away from David Coombs that night with love in my heart for the man. Jesus felt my pain.
He understood the cruelty that I had just experienced.
I am a child of God. He weeps when I am hurt. He will hold others accountable for hurting me.
By the same token, he will also hold me accountable for those whom I have hurt. I am a dirty, filthy, rotten sinner.
But Jesus continues to love me.
I am not Jesus. I feel human pain and emotions. And he understands this, even when cold hearted humans tell me that I should feel compassion for a man that felt no compassion for me, a man that deliberately tried to humiliate me and hurt me, a man that had access to my most personal records, after I had been promised that they would be confidential.
I am only human. I"m glad that Jesus understands.
SOTL, what I've said to David is between the two of us. If I knew you on a personal basis I would have done so with you in a more personal way. I still am asking the question about loving your brother. What say ye?
MOM4, let's see I've gone from being accused of being David's wife, being an argumentative women and now to being a cold heartless person. Anyone who knew me personally and knew David personally would be rolling on the floor laughing right now. David and I are complete opposites.
Well, I'm glad to see the 9:13 and 9:25 posts gone!!
Shame on them.
Stephanie, HE sees
Ecclesiastes 5:8 If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher than they.
Psalms 12:5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
This is too much!!! How far will the SG,DC followers and power brokers go!!! Ace was outed and I hope at this moment the person who told the identity of SOTL is being investigated. It WAS against the LAW for our personal files from Biblical guidance to be passed around during the BOGUS investigation....BBC could have a law suite coming. Go ahead and out me next! You are cowards....your words,letters,actions...cowards and BULLIES!
JMO, are you enjoying this one??? Your callus post yesterday about SOTL needing help....you don't have the position to tell her she needs help...you don't know or love her ....you are just concerned with your agenda. This whole thing does smell of BRUTE!!! This is too much...David B mentioned this law and my therapist told me about it.....when this coward is exposed as ACE was....it will NOT be a time of forgiveness. Just how far will these law breakers,bullies go!!! I am restaining myself,so save your holier than thou comments about my anger....I don't care about the opinions of BRUTES.
Psalms 71:21 Thou shalt increase my greatness, and comfort me on every side.
Psalms 119:50 This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.
Psalms 119:76 Let, I pray thee, thy merciful kindness be for my comfort, according to thy word unto thy servant.
Psalms 147:3 He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds.
bbc senior citizen
You made some really good points that needed to be made.
Obviously, the skewed investigation must have been of some benefit to SG. If I could reverse HIS ordination, I would.
Mom4
The petition police are on the way!
SOTL,gmommylv,
I am praying for you. This "man" has nothing on you ladies. Keep your eyes on Jesus.
I Love you both!
JMO,
ONE MORE TIME for the record...I DO know DC and he is a brute.....1st hand,personal experience.....your experience is your experience...not mine....and not SOTL...I am not laughing at all.....and I don't know you but I see you continue to kick a person when they have been attacked....shows me we would not want to know each other...leave her alone.....or are you having too much fun rolling on the floor with your great man of integrity.
Is there anyone reading this that knows the pastor or David Coombs personally that can explain why this ordination is best for Bellevue at this time?
It seems like David Coombs would not want to be ordained by a church that had a significant number of members who thought his ordination would make the wound larger.
Why would a church cram something like this down the throat of the church body when the throat is sore to begin with?
Nobody can deny the church is bruised and hurting. Instead of making the wound bigger, wouldn't it be better to try and apply medicine to heal the body?
It seems like the decisions that continue to come out of the leadership are poor. Who made the decision to ordain David Coombs? Are the deacons having any input in this decision? It appears to the ones I've talked to that they have no say in the matter.
SOTL,
I admire your openness and courage. A friend sent me the following Scripture today, and as I read it, it seemed every bit to speak God's truth into things you have shared here recently. It's a bit long, but I hope it blesses you.
Psalm 37
A Psalm of David.
Do not fret because of evildoers,
Nor be envious of the workers of iniquity.
For they shall soon be cut down like the grass,
And wither as the green herb.
Trust in the LORD, and do good;
Dwell in the land, and feed on His faithfulness.
Delight yourself also in the LORD,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
Commit your way to the LORD,
Trust also in Him,
And He shall bring it to pass.
He shall bring forth your righteousness as the light,
And your justice as the noonday.
Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for Him;
Do not fret because of him who prospers in his way,
Because of the man who brings wicked schemes to pass.
Cease from anger, and forsake wrath;
Do not fret—it only causes harm.
For evildoers shall be cut off;
But those who wait on the LORD,
They shall inherit the earth.
For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
But the meek shall inherit the earth,
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
The wicked plots against the just,
And gnashes at him with his teeth.
The Lord laughs at him,
For He sees that his day is coming.
The wicked have drawn the sword
And have bent their bow,
To cast down the poor and needy,
To slay those who are of upright conduct.
Their sword shall enter their own heart,
And their bows shall be broken.
A little that a righteous man has
Is better than the riches of many wicked.
For the arms of the wicked shall be broken,
But the LORD upholds the righteous.
The LORD knows the days of the upright,
And their inheritance shall be forever.
They shall not be ashamed in the evil time,
And in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the LORD,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.
The wicked borrows and does not repay,
But the righteous shows mercy and gives.
For those blessed by Him shall inherit the earth,
But those cursed by Him shall be cut off.
The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD,
And He delights in his way.
Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down;
For the LORD upholds him with His hand.
I have been young, and now am old;
Yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken,
Nor his descendants begging bread.
He is ever merciful, and lends;
And his descendants are blessed.
Depart from evil, and do good;
And dwell forevermore.
For the LORD loves justice,
And does not forsake His saints;
They are preserved forever,
But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
The righteous shall inherit the land,
And dwell in it forever.
The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom,
And his tongue talks of justice.
The law of his God is in his heart;
None of his steps shall slide.
The wicked watches the righteous,
And seeks to slay him.
The LORD will not leave him in his hand,
Nor condemn him when he is judged.
Wait on the LORD,
And keep His way,
And He shall exalt you to inherit the land;
When the wicked are cut off, you shall see it.
I have seen the wicked in great power,
And spreading himself like a native green tree.
Yet he passed away,[a] and behold, he was no more;
Indeed I sought him, but he could not be found.
Mark the blameless man, and observe the upright;
For the future of that man is peace.
But the transgressors shall be destroyed together;
The future of the wicked shall be cut off.
But the salvation of the righteous is from the LORD;
He is their strength in the time of trouble.
And the LORD shall help them and deliver them;
He shall deliver them from the wicked,
And save them,
Because they trust in Him.
sickofthelies,
Bless you dear lady. I am sorry for the pain you have experienced years ago as well as your experience of David Coombs laughing in your face and the ridicule from supporters of the current Bellevue administration.
I pray that the Lord comforts you tonight and know that there are many out here who love you and care about you.
If your file was swapped and shown around inside Bellevue, it's my opinion you have the right to seek legal action against those who had care, custody, and control of that file.
Signing off tonight.
That is correct - the deacons have no say in this matter. The only things they get to vote on are matters to be brought before the church body. This was obviously not one of those matters.
Mom4,
I signed off but had to come back on to give you an answer to your question about Mr. Whitmire.
You have me confused with someone else. I'm not the one who made the statement.
Sorry and goodnight.
truth or lie,
Pardon my error. It was "truthseeker" who knew of the dishonor to Dr Whitmire. I apologize for using your name and will correct my post.
Have a good evening.
MOM4 said...
truth or lie,
We need to rise up and fire some of the leadership. Deacons have more power than the leadership wants them to believe. Are they not the servants of the congregation? Just because Steve Gaines and his mighty men of status have told them that they have no power, they act like they are dead in their tracks. It reminds me of an elephant chained by a tiny stake in the ground. They could uproot it with a flick of the foot, but they remained chained. I fear this is the mindset of many of our deacons.
truthseeker,
I will request from you again to please elaborate on the dishonor inflicted on Dr Whitmire. This is unknown by most and it really needs to come out in the open. Many in the congregation still believe that things have been dealt with, but the majority of the offenses are still buried because people are not telling the whole story.
Please "lay it all out" for us. Please, in Jesus' Name.
10:22 PM, February 20, 2007
Here are a few important changes that would help restore the trust of many members during these days of crisis in leadership:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review--or any other minister's, layperson's, or committee's review--in any shape, form, or fashion. That should be between God and the giver, period!
3. Due to concern for potential abuse, no church credit cards.
4. An admission that the pastor should never have suggested and/or recommended that $25k be given to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips--or any other trip-- and no overcharging of members.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Immediate removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.
8. Compliance with the laws of Tennessee—within the specified time for compliance as outlined by statute--with regard to requests from membership for information, such as: membership list, financial records, current bylaws, business meeting minutes, and finance committee meeting minutes.
9. More careful consideration of candidates for ordination with due consideration of congregational approval. If the congregation is not in one accord with regard to a candidate, then the reasons for the objections should be given serious consideration and answered satisfactorily in order to preserve congregational unity.
II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of non-elected "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.
1. Those that are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, BBC's former leadership taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. BBC's former leadership taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
11. A new policy should be drafted that would govern the formation of future pastor search committees according to traditional Baptist polity. Qualifications for service should be given (in part to avoid potential future conflicts of interest) and future committee members should be nominated and approved by the whole congregation.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
All in my opinion as usual.
We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
JMO,
you have been hammering SOTL about love and forgiveness. Think about this,
I was loving my kids when I spanked their butts. Maybe that's what the leadership is going through now.
And the double standards continue...
Just got home....socwork, better watch it...you may have to follow through with the car for oc! ;)
Ima asked:
Did David Coombs and Steve Gaines know each other prior to SG coming to Bellevue? Did they have a mutual friend? Was David Coombs trying to put into place the 40 Days of Purpose or did he oppose it? Was he part of the power group that signed onto the Willow Creek Association? Who was?
Ima, since you mentioned me in your post, I will honestly tell you that I do not know any of those answers.
Proverbs 26:3 ¶ A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool’s back.
4 ¶ Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Concerned,
Yeah, I've been noticing that socwork has ignoring me lately. Still waiting for my car. ;)
Dear JMO and A certain BBC member: Come out, come out where ever you are. I gues you two are proud of yourselves tonight.
Why don't you take me on? I have been the most vocal in my opinions of the Investigative Team report. The ENTIRE leadership team and that includes DC should be ashamed to have had any part in it.
You suggest that they did not need to talk to the victim to get to the truth. So we believe the words of perp and ignore the victim. Good grief do you realize how that sounds like a page right out the Catholic Church manual?
I asked DC in my very first phone conversation why they didn't report it. Do you know what his response was? "I don't know there is anything to report." And this is the guy that is heading the investigation? You have to be kidding me.
DC may be a man of interity but he certainly is not the most informed person when it comes to handling these matters. And I do expect more from anyone that uses the title of Pastor, whether it be Administrative or Senior. So does our Lord.
I told you last night I am only getting started. You will see what I am talking about in the weeks to come.
David Brown
Esther and Ezekiel,
"BePatient" and I disagree on many things concerning Steve Gaines and David Coombs, but both of your comments tonight have been utterly indefensible. Someone disagrees with you and you find you must insult them and questions their salvation? "Get in to the word before it is tooo late"? Really? REALLY? I would never question your salvation, but I do question your motives. Don't let your need to be right get in the way of doing the right thing. Christ never called us to question the salvation of those who simply disagreed with us. It looks like by disagreeing with the way the church is run (and trust me, I do not support Steve Gaines at ALL), you have become worse than him. Oh, and about the Phil Newberry comment...no one who read that felt she was "slandering" him except for you. In general people only result to personal attacks when they can't think of anything intelligent to say, so don't let that be true of either of you.
Something we have seen clearly illustrated on the blog tonight:
Jeremiah 17.9
The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?
The church needs to know where you stand on this issue. Is the Church really 'congregationaly approved' or not. Let your voice be heard.
PLEASE TAKE A STAND
If you have already signed take a moment to go to the petition sight and click on the link to email to your family and friends at Bellevue.
Just my opinion said...
Dee, I will accept that as a back handed compliment. I have many an employee accuse me...
*******
Sorry, JMO, my reply to imaresistor wasn't intended as a back-handed compliment, a criticism, or a compliment. It was merely an observation of how she had mistakenly thought she was speaking to a woman when she responded to you. I had felt the same way before until I checked your profile and saw that you listed yourself as a male. The really strange thing, too, was that when I looked back even farther, I saw that imaresistor had thought the same thing about 'Memphis' AND SO HAD I. I guess all it amounts to is that 'imaresistor' and I must be on the same wave length.
You must realize, too, that it really isn't a personal slam since it does not reflect on you personally. By that I mean that we cannot actually SEE each other or HEAR the voice of that person or the TONE in which they speak. It is just something which we 'gather' from conversational wording.
Please accept my apology for commenting in a way that was somewhat offensive to you. That was not at all my intention. I guess that goes to show us that when our comments are of a more personal nature, we run the risk of hurting someone's feelings. I try to avoid personal comments except in an encouraging manner, but sometimes I apparently fail.
Dee
Proverbs 26:20 ¶ Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.
21 As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to kindle strife.
22 The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.
23 ¶ Burning lips and a wicked heart are like a potsherd covered with silver dross.
24 ¶ He that hateth dissembleth with his lips, and layeth up deceit within him;
25 When he speaketh fair, believe him not: for there are seven abominations in his heart.
26 Whose hatred is covered by deceit, his wickedness shall be shewed before the whole congregation.
offline
LOL concerned... oc, wasn't ignoring you on purpose! It's just that the church won't give me any of your personal information, so I won't be able to deliver your car. Sorry.
socwork,
you don't have to deliver it. I'll come get it! Oh wait, I can't get that information either. Guess I'll keep walking to work and church. Aaaaaaah!
Thank you 25+ for your reminder.
The only organization to shoot our wounded...........is that really what we want to be? There seems to be a BIG difference between an adult making a horrible decision, going against scripture, ignoring his flock and a little child powerless to protect themselves. SG allowed a predator to stay around your child- all BBC's children- unwatched. DC spoke with utter contempt towards a sister Christian, a sister church member. There is no excuse. SG and DC made choices......SOTL and gmommylv were not allowed choices, they were merely taken advantage of and abused. That's where responsibility comes in. When will SG and DC and MD and PW and JF and WW and you name the rest...going to take responsibility for their actions, or lack thereof????
socwork and oc: I've got an idea.....you can meet at Starbucks! That way you don't have to wait for BBC to release addresses (no idea how long that will be) and oc you can get your new car! Socwork Winfrey....remember, it is more blessed to give than to receive! ;)
concerned,
alright! you are a great buddy and a wonderful problem solver! wait, I gotta walk to Starbucks? Hmmm.....OK! :)
Going to sleep now and dreaming of my new car.....Goodnght! :)
To Just my opinion,
Did you see my post to you at 10:56 PM tonight?
Dee
Some mistakenly think that Bellevue is somehow too big for a "normal business meeting." Really? It has been argued on this blog that a church reaches a certain size and it just can't operate... THAT way. Really??
The Southern Baptist Convention meets each year and is slightly larger than Bellevue [understatement, I know]. They have reports, microphones on the floor, whatever it takes for things to be done decently and in order.
The church at Jerusalem grew from 120 to 3,120 to 8,120... with the Lord adding DAILY to it. By the presence and power of the Holy Spirit they remained together--"in one accord." In Acts 15 the church met and discussed a controversial issue and came together "in one accord."
God the Father does not change. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today , and forever. The Holy Spirit of God does not change.
Why should a church change when it reaches a certain size? Is accountability inconvenient? Does it require extra work? But does it preserve transparency and provide checks and balances to avoid shipwreck...
Truth does not fear light...
BBC needs revival, cleansing, and reform. Pray that God will cleanse, heal, and restore BBC.
jmo
To bbc senior citizen...
Your 9:34 PM post tonight was powerful--absolutely awesome! It is strange that on this blog sometimes the very best information apparently gets taken lightly or skipped over. All I've got to say is all of us need to be paying attention to what others have to say (and not JUST the ones we are arguing with or passing the time of day with) or we might miss something that could be of VITAL importance. All of this arguing and rehashing and responding to goofball comments while failing to read the powerful posts is NOT to our credit, brothers and sisters. The Lord Himself could speak to us on here and, at times, we would miss it. Pay attention to the important matters before you waste a bunch of time doing otherwise.
"BBC senior citizen" spent a lot of time, I'm sure, and shared a lot of wisdom with us on here tonight in that 9:34 PM post, and only one person, Piglet, commented on it. I think it was downright rude to fail to at least acknowledge his heartfelt, intelligent, experience-filled post. It was lengthy, but it was loaded with thought-provoking, power-filled words. This was an especially interesting piece and deserved your perusal. It was a 'steak' among chopped liver. Please, let's not get all wrapped up in time-consuming arguments. I know some comments are wrong and infuriating, but respond then go on and ignore the rest. Keep the main thing the main thing. Okay?
JESUS IS LORD!
Dee
To 25+yrs@bbc...
Excellent points and suggestions! Keep thinking and telling us ALL that crosses your mind. You have a VERY GOOD mind, and we need more of what you have to offer to this blog and to the NEW BBC that we will be having to 'construct' once the dust settles.
I always appreciate your wisdom and thoughts and lists. You must be a pastor. Even if you aren't, I wish you were. I could trust somebody like you.
Dee
2006huldah said,
"I guess all it amounts to is that 'imaresistor' and I must be on the same wave length."
Oh my...
Dee,
No need to apologize and no I wasn't offended by being referenced as a woman. But I agree 100% with you that blog postings like emails are without tones, inflections, or body language, all of which are needed to communicate properly. I may read angry what another sees as justified 'righteousness'.
And your point leads to why much of what's happening is more about communication than actual substance. I have the opportunity to speak to a large number of members that are not Internet savvy. Their take is different than those who read this blog and are influenced by misinformation and the drama which this blog seems to take on a daily basis. Of course most all these people are senior members and have a lifetime of dealing with problems so things are in a better perspective for them.
Take the investigative committee report. Now that people have parsed every word, maybe every syllable we have what is being called a "cover-up". Yet nobody has explained to me in a logical manner just what was covered-up. No CW did not speak to the committee because nobody could agree on the structure of who attended. Other than giving CW an audience to share his feelings (which may have been very helpful in his recovery) no information would be coming forward to change the results of the conclusion. At least I've not heard nor read anything that would have been revealed which would seemly be that 'unturned stone'.
The bottom line is that many are so entrenched in their position that they've got a 'stiff neck' and no reasonable response will suffice. What makes it difficult for me is that I see men I've known for many, many years be written about in ways that are far different than I know them. If I didn't know these guys in a personal way I too could fall victim of believing the negative character assassinations which go about daily.
Thank you for having a heat of love which makes you sensitive to the feelings of others. Though I was not offended it does make my heart glad to know there are persons on this blog that may disagree with my opinion can as Dr. Rogers would say "love the Jesus within me". May this be a blessed day for you to enjoy.
And if my writings sound like a women's, then I feel honored, because women are normally more sensitive than men. I hope that what I write does come across as sensitive to readers.
BBC Senior Citizen: Thank you so much for your succinct overview of the whole PW debacle, and for your excellent points and conclusions. I think for new lurkers it will be especially helpful (maybe it needs to be posted on every thread like 25+'s list). I think your post emphasizes why the DC ordination should be cancelled, but also why SG has proven himself unworthy for the pulpit of BBC. This has never been a hunt to get rig of SG; it has merely been a quest for truth and transparency. However, over the last 8-9 months, SG himself has made that conclusion apparent by his poor decisions.
jmo said: I may read angry what another sees as justified 'righteousness'.
Just for clarification, I said "righteous anger."
I do think you make a good point on your post about "Of course most all these people are senior members and have a lifetime of dealing with problems so things are in a better perspective for them." However, what I also see is that with the culture of misinformation and no information that's going on at BBC now, I wouldn't expect them to know, really, what was going on. The issues of non-transparancy, of law-breaking, of intimidation....are well documented. There are tapes, pictures, letters, and first-hand accounts to verify all these situations. However, many people just aren't privy to those factual accounts. That doesn't mean they didn't happen.
I'm sure it must be very difficult for you, knowing these men as long as you have, being trusting friends with them, but sometimes people do change. Or sometimes they get caught up in things that look good, or right, at the time and end up not being that way. It happens to all of us at times. The difference is that these men are shepherds and leaders to 28,000+ people and do have the responsibility for such. Many incidents were clear cases of disobedience, imho, because scripture, and law, is so plain. There must be accountability, in love, to correct the course.
jmo said...
"BBC needs revival, cleansing, and reform. Pray that God will cleanse, heal, and restore BBC."
What will it take for this to happen? Another CEO, or a righteous man of God as a Senior Pastor. One who will cleanse the leadership from the Administrative Pastors all the way down THRU the Missions Dept and then some.
This will indeed be wrought by prayer, and does the Lord no use men to accomplish His will?
We need a Man of God in the House of God.
just my opinion said...
"And your point leads to why much of what's happening is more about communication than actual substance. I have the opportunity to speak to a large number of members that are not Internet savvy. Their take is different than those who read this blog and are influenced by misinformation and the drama which this blog seems to take on a daily basis. Of course most all these people are senior members and have a lifetime of dealing with problems so things are in a better perspective for them."
I must disagree with you on this point. I too have spoken with many "senior" members who are not internet savvy. They are having difficulties with many things and many are only still at BBC b/c they are too "old and tired" to find another place. Many of them go to BFC and then go home, not attending the service. They feel like "strangers in their own home."
I, like you, have known many of these men in leadership my entire life. I would never have believed some of the things that have transpired and been said, except that I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears!
I guess the lesson is that Jer. 17:9 has come to light over and over again--"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" We need to all be checking our hearts every single day--LEADERSHIP INCLUDED!!!
standing
I'd like to mention something that deeply concerns me as a regular joe member. The fact that 80 out of 200 ushers have been reported to have resigned is really a cause for alarm. That is 40% of the total number. For many of us regular joe's out there the usher is the closest thing we ever come to the administration. I understand some of them were getting on in age but to have 40% turn over in just under 2 years in a position that people often hold for decades seems to herald a real problem. What do you think?
"Jer. 17:9 has come to light over and over again--"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
Thanks for posting that verse. People do change. Some of you have seen it at work. A new boss comes and all of a sudden the guy you worked with that seemed to have integrity starts trying to please the new boss or be a part of the new power brokers and takes on some of their less than noble characteristics. Happens all the time.
My guess is that Dr. R had a high standard for personal intergrity so these things would not have been noticed before. Also could be the reason PW went to such great lengths to hide that situation from him. He knew what the consequences would be.
Here is one from Psalms 51 that I love:
16For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it;
you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
If I ever had in any doubt about what is taking place in BBC these days, it is gone after listening to the sermon "Surviving Apostasy" at lwf.org.
Folks, it is imperative that all of us get in the "Word" and on our knees. (I know many of you already are there.)
To those of you taking the lead in this fight - Thank You and May God Bless you.
concernedsbcer wrote: "I'm sure it must be very difficult for you, knowing these men as long as you have, being trusting friends with them, but sometimes people do change.... It happens to all of us at times..... Many incidents were clear cases of disobedience, imho, because scripture, and law, is so plain.... There must be accountability, in love, to correct the course."
Actually it doesn't happen all the time if you're saying that people change. I don't see any changes in the character or personality of the men in leadership from Dr. Rogers to Bro. Steve. The only thing I've observed is a change in circumstances and pastoral leadership.
I will be the first to admit that Bro. Steve has made a lifetime of mistakes at Bellevue. The men in leadership have never had to deal with this area inasmuch as Dr. Rogers, himself, was never an issue and he usually provided clear direction in matters of moral failure. Now with a pastor making poor decisions and providing weak leadership in the area of moral failure we have a whole new set of circumstances for our lay leadership to deal with. Have you ever thought how difficult it must be for them to have these issues to deal with?
You must have much more wisdom and knowledge than I because I don't find the Scripture or law to be so plain. I've sat through too many of Dr. Rogers sermons to realize that he could find more depth and substance than I could in a particular Scripture passage. I am well versed in the Bible enough to know that there is more that I don't understand than I do. But maybe after this is over we can use this blog for you to clearly explain Revelations or maybe the Trinity to me.
As for the law being clear, I recall one lawyer (President Bill Clinton) spending way too much time trying to define 'is'. Every time I think the law is clear, I see another lawyer making an argument in the other direction. If the law was as clear as some posted earlier this year then PW, SG, JF, WW (&wife) and Chuck H. would all have been arrested. By the way, why haven't we heard anything from our DA or DCS? Maybe the law isn't so clear after all. And maybe what young Josh believes to be the interpretation of law is incorrect. I don't know the answer because the law isn't clear.
I agree that there needs to be accountability. The bigger issue is determining which actions are wrong. Some are clearly wrong but some are not so clear. I know that the Bible is clear on us loving one another. I know that we are to support and follow our pastor. But to paraphrase that old mommy advise...if the pastor jumps off the cliff, are you going to jump too? I am old enough to have watched the horror of the Pastor Jim Jones kool-aid fest to know that one cannot blindly follow any man.
But I am clear on my understanding that we have men in lay leadership positions that haven't compromised their stand. Just because you don't read a public admonishment about Bro. Steve doesn't mean that behind closed doors that our lay leadership is not voicing their opinions to the pastor. These men understand that somethings are best handled in a more private manner and not for public consumption.
Everyone,
Please sign the petition to postphone the ordination of David Coombs.
Opening page of NEW BBC Open Forum, click post petition.
Try to contact at least one person today to do the same, and ask that person to do the same. (tell them how to get to the website, they may not know)
If you feel safe enough, please post your name & comments, we can make a difference..Thanks
Correction..it says postphone the ordination.
JU said...
"I'd like to mention something that deeply concerns me as a regular joe member. The fact that 80 out of 200 ushers have been reported to have resigned is really a cause for alarm. That is 40% of the total number. For many of us regular joe's out there the usher is the closest thing we ever come to the administration. I understand some of them were getting on in age but to have 40% turn over in just under 2 years in a position that people often hold for decades seems to herald a real problem. What do you think?"
I understand that about 40% of the active membership is no longer attending and giving as well. This is the first time in Bellevue history that they have NOT been able to make budget with funds to spare.
I guess the church will have to use that $20 million that Steve and Donna Gaines wanted for their personal ministry growth. That is what Donna was overheard telling a friend at WJX - the only reason they took the "job" was to expand their company and Bellevue had the money to do it.
Shameful!
To test and reveal a man's character, give him power.
JMO: I am somewhat astonished at the tone of your post, although I guess I shouldn't be. I don't understand the Trinity any more than the next person, but I do know that God is God and He is Three in one. Some things we won't understand until we get to Heaven has always been my take on things such as that. However, after studying Revelation for 5 years under several teachers, and researching it myself in depth, sure we can get together and talk anytime you want. I'd love that.
With regard to the other, I have always been able to see the world in a very black/white way. (Not sure if this is a blessing or a curse) Scripture says what it says and I take it that way. I will work today (after I finish my real job) to gather verses that address these issues in black and white and email them to you. I think they have already been presented on this forum (by those much smarter than me, like Dee, Amos, AOG, Ezekiel…etc. You know who you are!) but a review never hurts.
Yet nobody has explained to me in a logical manner just what was covered-up.
Allow me... THE victim was NOT interviewed. Logical, simple, and concise. HOpe that helps.
No CW did not speak to the committee because nobody could agree on the structure of who attended.
And you don't think this is a problem?
Other than giving CW an audience to share his feelings (which may have been very helpful in his recovery) no information would be coming forward to change the results of the conclusion.
How do you know no other information would be forthcoming? Unless I missed something about your role in the investigation, you don't.
And you think the victim of a pedophile sharing his "feelings" with a group of men he doesn't trust might have helped his recovery? Think about this.
esther,
Could you drop me a quick email? I have a question. Thanks!
Karen
It is always the right time to do the right thing.
MLK, Jr.
If one agrees with this statement, then the only question that remains is, "what is the RIGHT thing?"
There's an interesting and short article by John McArthur on compromise and division in the church. It's a quick read, and it's pretty interesting.
Here it is.
socwork, with all due respect that wasn't a cover-up since it was mentioned in the report. I'm still waiting for some diabolical cover-up to be shared. You post it and I will personally ask for clarification.
concernedsbcer, I am not sure what you mean by 'tone'. I did not intend any tone other than stating my opinion. Well, I may have been some what sarcastic in my phasing of "You must have much more wisdom and knowledge than I because.." but that was for some that know me. I tend to have a high opinion of myself sometimes and admitting to be less in wisdom and knowledge would surprise some. If that was the offensive tone then I apologize. If it was something other than the above then you may have read into my post what was not intended to be the tonality of the statement.
jmo: no problem. There was some sarcasm, but as I am naturally a bit sarcastic, I do understand! :)
I cannot support the ordination of David Coombs at this time. Some of the reasons are as follows:
1) In the Investigative Team report, David Coombs said that their charge was to “leave no stone unturned.” However, the Investigative Team -- led by David Coombs -- NEVER interviewed the victim, despite a minimum of FIVE requests for a meeting with all the principles and leadership involved in this issue.
2) When a BBC member met with David Coombs on 01/25/07 to request information, Mr. Coombs replied that he was “not interested in what the Tennessee Code says.” The request was made in accordance with Tennessee Code.
3) David Coombs behavior and actions were rude when a former victim (current BBC member) requested her counseling file. David Coombs’ conduct was inappropriate and unbecoming to anybody – especially for a minister.
4) At the conclusion of the Sunday evening service on 01/28/07, David Coombs had 2 separate conversations with a former victim. The time lapse between these conversations was less than 10 minutes. In the first conversation, the former victim told David Coombs that “pedophilia thrives in secrecy;” David Coombs laughed in her face. This former victim returned with a witness to the initial conversation and confronted David Coombs a second time. Then, David Coombs DENIED he had even talked with this lady that evening…even though it occurred a mere 10 minutes earlier!
I do not know whether or not David Coombs has been called by God to go into the ministry. I am not qualified to speak to this. Some have spoken of David Coombs’ integrity and past work as a lay person in our beloved Bellevue.
I can only speak to what I have personally seen with my own eyes, heard with my own ears, and deducted based on his actions in recent weeks.
At a minimum, I believe the ordination of David Coombs needs to be postponed at this time. There are far too many issues dealing with the lack of integrity, transparency, and accountability within our church at this time.
Instead of moving forward with an ordination service, we need to move forward with an open business meeting in the immediate future.
No, jmo, it wasn't mentioned in the report. Let me clarify, it was mentioned that one victim was not interviewed, but they didn't think it would change the results. Why didn't they name which victim? It was presented as "just another victim," but it was THE victim. It was THE victim who requested a meeting with the investigative committee FIVE times. There is a reason they did not identify WHO the victim was, isn't there?
just my opinion said...
"But I am clear on my understanding that we have men in lay leadership positions that haven't compromised their stand. Just because you don't read a public admonishment about Bro. Steve doesn't mean that behind closed doors that our lay leadership is not voicing their opinions to the pastor. These men understand that somethings are best handled in a more private manner and not for public consumption."
Do you seriously believe that lay leadership has Steve's ear? Are they being heard? Mark Sharpe wasn't heard - his property was trespassed upon, his children were scared when 4 large men showed up at the door unannounced, he's been called names and accused of being responsible for sending people to hell. Mark Sharpe was in lay leadership and he was cut off at the knees by the pastor who is supposed to love all the sheep. Who are these lay leaders that are speaking to Steve? Riad Saba, Carol Pemberton, Pam Gremillion, Josh Manning, etc., etc. have all tried (heck, I sent my own email with no response yet). Are these people not important enough to be listened to? Who exactly has Steve been listening to? The whole deal at BBC wasn't made public until all private means of communication were exhausted.
Also, in your post you say "I will be the first to admit that Bro. Steve has made a lifetime of mistakes at Bellevue."
Well, Hallelujah! I am so glad you said that. I ask you this: How many mistakes should we as BBC members allow before it becomes evident that Steve is inept at running a church such as BBC? When is enough, enough? In your opinion, of course. Thanks!
karen
Just My Opinion said...
socwork, with all due respect that wasn't a cover-up since it was mentioned in the report.
Reply:
There was a vague reference in the report concerning this issue. I would venture to guess that there are numerous Church members that are still not aware of the facts concerning this matter.
At the very minimum if they felt that it would compromise the investigation, they should have interviewed in the group setting that was requested as the final step in the process. It would have certainly have prevented the team from having to generate opinions on what may or may not have been revealed.
Karen,
Good Words! The people with influence and power that can stop this charade are sitting on their hands. "Enough is enough" is surely our cry when Steve Gaines and his straw administration attempt to divinely ordain a man whose call by God is debatable and that is a kind comment.
Even so Lord, come quickly!
esther,
I have decided to break my silence and say something to you.
I am not sure what scripture I referenced that I "twisted", and seeing as Dr. Rogers was my pastor all my life until now, I feel comfortable in saying I have a firm grasp on some sound theology. I may choose the wrong words at time- "carnal" heart was said without qualifying what I meant. I can see how that was misleading but I didn't mean it the way it sounded.
Others are reading this blog, and we are also responsible for how we interact with each other.
I do not want to get in an argument about spiritual gifts, but I do think we all have strengths in our lives, spiritual and otherwise. I will never be able to preach like Spurgeon or Rogers, and some have an amazing heart for discernment, but there are some people who are only going to be receptive to someone who has a heart for forgiveness- There are sinners in this world who need to see a picture of God's forgiveness in another human being to bring them closer to Christ. We all have a place in God's church, and it doesn't mean we all have to be the same.
I believe asking Jesus Christ in your heart as your personal Lord and Savior is the only way to heaven and a relationship with God. I believe in the Trinity. I believe in Believer's Baptism. I believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God.
Good for you, bepatient! I want to come to your defense on that fact you are only doing and saying what you think is right, just like everyone else here. I really think if esther knew how much you were hurt by yesterday's remarks, she'd apologize quickly. She's been pretty consistent in her passion so she'll most likely realize there needs to be an apology. As I told you in our email exchange earlier, we (you and I) both feel we are in God's will even if we see the issues from different perspectives.
karen
To Just my opinion and others...
Did you read the post of "bbc senior citizen" last night at 9:34 PM? I think you will find his thoughts (and they are DEEP) on the David Coombs/Investigative Report matter very interesting.
JMO--You seem to doubt our doubt of David Coombs. After reading the 9:34 post, you may have some of your own questions answered. Of course, BBCSrCitizen is just reasoning, apparently from his experience in the investigative field; but, I tell you, it all makes perfect sense to me. I know when I read it, the Spirit in me did not reject it.
JMO--Thank you for accepting my apology and blessing me with your kind words for me to enjoy this day. You know, today would be a good day to get off this computer and go outside and take a short walk. I have been sick and I don't think I could do a very long one.
Grateful for Jesus,
Dee
thank mom4!
It took awhile to type since my arm is on FIRE today. Pray for me as I get another nerve block tomorrow.
karen
bepatient:
This is going to sound really really mean. I will be attacked like crazy for saying this to you but I am going to say it anyway:
If you loved truth...as it is in scripture, If you really feared God, then you could not defend what SG has done throughout this entire episode. You would not be able to consider a pastor a who ignored scripture.
This is NOT about 'spiritual gifts'. I am not sure what spiritual gifts there are that do not include scripture.
bepatient wrote: "There are sinners in this world who need to see a picture of God's forgiveness in another human being to bring them closer to Christ. We all have a place in God's church, and it doesn't mean we all have to be the same."
See, this is a perfect example of twisting a truth of scripture. There can be NO forgiveness without repentence. You may come back and say, well I meant forgiveness IF they repented...but you did not say that here. I am concerned that you may not understand it.
We can forgive another human but it means nothing to their eternal life. Only true repentence brings forgiveness from God.
bepatient, any of us can sit under the greatest pastors and not personally know scripture. Because in the end, it is about you in your home alone in the Word. How else can you recognize false teaching?
Karen, your e-mail is not on the profile. Try mine again, I put the e-mail up there.
esther,
Whoops - my mistake! It used to be up there. Don't worry about it - my post to bepatient was what I was going to email you about.
Thanks! :)
karen
"Good for you, bepatient! I want to come to your defense on that fact you are only doing and saying what you think is right, just like everyone else here."
None of us are right. Only scripture is right. So, it is dangerous for us to say it is ok if we 'feel' it is right. Sola Scriptura
" I really think if esther knew how much you were hurt by yesterday's remarks, she'd apologize quickly. "
I was hurt, too. As I am always hurt by the twisting of my Lords Word.
" As I told you in our email exchange earlier, we (you and I) both feel we are in God's will even if we see the issues from different perspectives."
God's will is very evident in scripture, we don't have to 'feel' if we are in it or not. His will is following the commands and precepts of scripture. And, by the way, telling the truth is always loving. But the modern church has taught us different. To them, love is tolerance. So we insult God's Word in order to protect people's feelings. What has happened to us?
esther,
God love you! I admire your passion and spunk and desire to seek the truth through scripture. I don't think bepatient was trying to hurt you nor were you trying to hurt bepatient.
Let's let this one rest for now - we need to focus on the issues at hand which directly affect BBC - one of which is preventing the ordination of David Coombs.
Much love,
karen
To Concernedsbcer...
Thank you for reading the 9:34 PM post of "bbc senior citizen" AND for commenting on it. It WAS great, wasn't it? I think it could quite possibly turn out to be exactly right in regards to the directing by legal counsel for the protection of others.
Also, thank you for including me in a side comment you made. You have placed me on a higher plane than I deserve and that is not false humility. I mean every word I say when I say it. You have always been kind and supportive towards me, and I am humbly grateful (not "grumbly hateful", I hope, as Dr. Rogers used to say) for your encouraging words.
Thank you, Jesus, for Concernedsbcer...
Dee
Karen,
I love you, Sister. Wasn't it you who yesterday said something along the line of, "What are they going to do? Poke me in the eye with the bylaws." You put the biggest smile on my face with that one.
One thing is for sure. We are seeing more mention of the bylaws than I ever heard in my entire time at BBC, and I think that is a very good thing. Keep up the good work and don't let that burning in your arm do anything but engrave the stony 'tablets' at BBC with the TRUE Word of God.
HALLELUJAH! JESUS IS LORD OF ALL!
Dee
Thanks Dee! You're just full of sunshineyness today, huh?
The "poke in the eye" comment was mine - I have visions of that happening someday. But I wear glasses so I can see them coming! :)
karen
To Standingontheshoulders1973...
Thank you for sharing with us in your 8:15 AM post the truths of what you have personally witnessed at Bellevue from our senior citizens. It is so important that we KNOW all the aspects of what is actually going on at our church in order that we can achieve the most accurate perspective.
The more TRUTH we see on here, the brighter and more piercing the LIGHT will become. HALLELUJAH!
Lord Jesus, thank you speaking to us through Standingon...
Dee
2006Huldah: Youve got mail. :)
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