The Investigative and Personnel Committee Reports from January 28th are here and here.
The Commercial Appeal's story is here.
Channel 5's coverage is here and here.
FOX13's coverage is here, here, here, here, here, and here.
The latest from EthicsDaily.com is here and here.
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304 comments:
1 – 200 of 304 Newer› Newest»Dear Truth-seekers,
I have lurked on this blog since January, when I first learned of the Paul Williams scandal. I’ve tried to be up front regarding whom I am, provided contexts for ingratiating myself into this conversation, and I’ve grown to care about many of you. I couldn’t really tell the sentiment of the crowd following Sunday night’s report—aside from the tears shed around me, the general mien was one of awkward stoicism, or perhaps shellshock.
I am a freelance writer; I’m on the outside looking in, so to speak; and it makes me angry that forces within the church have sought to marginalize its own for simply advocating accountability (not merely forgiveness) and a little common sense; and are free, even, to pontificate to the black sheep. The sad irony is that the church provided no such forum, inside its walls, to the questions and concerns of it parishioners, yet toadies abound here.
I would like to write a story about the perspectives voiced on BBC Open Forum, so if you might be interested in a discourse with me, please email.
David
Did anyone give a standing ovation Sunday night in support of Steve Gaines?
Phil: No standing O's Sunday night.
From the other thread
Bepatient said...
I don't honestly know, I just know there are approx. 10-15 deacons who I have heard are either concerned or on the fence about it all. They are praying and seeking God's guidance. I do know that.
don't take that to the bank, but I heard it from a reliable source.
12:30 AM, January 30, 2007
I think there are 15-20 deacons who are like your husband, They strongly support the pastor.
I've seen a list of at least 60 known to have serious concerns about the leadership. The rest are somewhere in the middle.
loadac,
Not until the church knows the truth. The leadership could kill the blogs by telling the complete truth.
It appears that all this can be summed up pretty simply:
The gool old boys club was alive and well and intact even after PW 'confessed' to SG. It was only broken up by a trio of three young men, who had never been pastors or lawyers or social workers to advise SG that the gig was up.
Then it was leaked to this blog. The entire story was about to blow up in SG's face. So on Dec. 17, he put on his best 'quivering lip' face ( from the Bill Clinton handbook) and stood before the congregation and told about the confession of a ' moral failure'.
And here we are.
LINK
Transcript of Manning – Coombs meeting re: 1/13/07, 1/17/07, and 1/18/07 requests for Bellevue Baptist Church mailing list, business meeting and financial committee meeting minutes, and group meeting location. Recorded at Bellevue Baptist Church, 2:35pm Thursday, January 25, 2007. Meeting in Coombs’ office.
Josh Manning: I am here . . . we sent a letter I think you got a copy of it, some other people did too, requesting the mailing list, the business meeting minutes for the last couple of years, and the finance committee meeting minutes for the last couple of years; and I was just swinging by to pick those up.
David Coombs: Well the answer is no, no, no no.
JM: Ok, well why is that?
DC: huh?
JM: Why is that?
DC: Because we’re not prepared to release those to you.
JM: Ok, the Tennessee Code says that within five days of a written request . . .
DC: [Speaking over JM] I’m not interested in what the Tennessee Code says.
JM: So you’re willing for Bellevue Baptist Church to violate state law?
DC: We’re willing to provide what information we’re required to by state law.
JM: You are by state law under the second . . . I’ve got the statue right here if you’d like to see it.
DC: I understand the statute. I’m very well versed in it.
JM: Let’s see here.
DC: You don’t need to read it to me. I know it.
JM: Ok, so you know it, and you know it says that meeting minutes are required, yet you’re not going to provide those.
DC: [Over JM] I know what it says. I know what it says.
JM: Do you . . . do you . . . would you admit that that’s a violation of Tennessee state law?
DC: I’m not admitting anything.
JM: Ok where’s the policy that says that you . . . could I see the policy that says you won’t do this?
DC: No.
JM: I’m a church member. Surely I should be allowed to see church policy.
DC: No.
JM: Why is that?
DC: You give me a good reason for it and I’ll . . . uh . . .
JM: Well, the reasons were noted in my letter, let’s see here. We requested the mailing list so that “we as members [. . .] may communicate in an open, civil, and transparent manner with fellow members regarding [recent matters in the Church’s life] . . . um . . . that comports . . .
DC: I will give you a complete written response.
JM: Ok, will that include the list?
DC: I will give you a complete written response.
JM: Ok, the law requires that you provide the list.
DC: I will give you a complete written response.
JM: So you’re willing to not provide what the law requires?
DC: I will give you a complete written response.
JM: Ok, when did this policy go into effect?
DC: I will give you a complete written response.
JM: Ok, you don’t have an answer for that?
DC: I will give you a complete written response.
JM: Ok, is there anything I can say that would get a response other that from you?
DC: No, I will give you a complete written response.
JM: May I take it from your not giving me the materials I’m requesting, that you’re ignoring Tennessee State Code section 48-66-101 and sequential?
DC: [over JM] No, you may not.
JM: I may not?
DC: No.
JM: May I take it from this that you’re complying with the Tennessee code? Do you claim to be complying with it?
DC: I will give you a complete response.
JM: You don’t claim to be complying with it?
DC: I will give you a complete response.
JM: Alright. Very good. I appreciate you. Seriously. Thank you. I hope you have a nice day.
DC: Thank you
JM: Thank you
I attest that the above transcript is true and accurate.
_______________________________
Joshua H. Manning
01.25.07
Some wise man once said that "the biggest trait of a charlatan is the ability to feign emotion".
I wonder if we will get another Bill Clinton moment soon: "I'd really like to stay and be your pastor", "I was only a mistake of the mind", "This is all new to me", "I didn't know what to do".
Pardon my sarcasm, I am just sick and tired of not having a man of God as a leader and those with little or no knowledge of the facts standing ignorantly behind him.
I will welcome a meeting where the ignorance of all can be erased.
Heavenly Father,
I pledge allegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic
for which it stands
one nation
under you
with liberty and justice
for all.
Heavenly Father,
Please help us follow the Ten Commandments, even in our hearts. Help us to read today's text from the Bible (USA english) ("thou shalt" english). Father, a brother in Christ broke fellowship with me yesterday becuse of what I said as I struggle to understand your will. Please let the Great Commission move forward today in Botswana. In Jesus's name, Amen.
Thank you for this new thread, "Today's Media Coverage - January 30, 2007"
overflowinggrace said...
Lindon,
There is no desperation here. I am not forming some corp, trying to overthrow a church. I'm very aware of the scripture, and I guess we should fire WW JF and if RM comes back fire him too.
10:11 PM, January 29, 2007
Overflowing,
I applaud this group Integrity Does Count to take a stand for truth and integrity.
You claim they organized to overthrow a church. This tells me you are probably one of the men or wife of the inner circle who control and protect Bellevue from the lowly members who don't know what real truth and righteousness is.
It's appears from your postings for the last several months, you have a lot to loose if things are exposed and transparency rises at Bellevue.
Do you have factual knowledge of what IDC stands for? If so, I'd like to hear it from you.
Is demanding truth and integrity overthrowing a church? If so, what kind of church do you have if you don't have truth and integrity?
Is there any point in which you see things need to be changed? Is there anything that you see going on from the leadership that disturbs you?
Once truth and integrity returns to the pulpit and the leadership, healing can begin and the church can be what God wants it to be.
We the people, are the church. Forget about the $30,000,000 in the bank and the $100,000,000 in property values. Just think about Jesus and the people.
I long for the day when we can come together and worship in Spirit and in Truth alongside each other in love.
I pray God opens your heart today to understand what is being desired.
pinker socks said...
What ever happened with Bruce Brooke? Is he still President of the Board of Directors???
8:43 AM, January 30, 2007
From what I "heard", he resigned without incident or accountability and has left the church. He was not brought before the church as required by scripture - he was given a pass.
pinker socks,
Would you email me?..thanks
I have more of an open mind about all this then most of you would expect. However, let's be real. Am I missing something here? DC said he would be willing to provide what they were required by state law. He said they were not prepared to release that at this time. I wonder why. I can't imagine that they haven't been extremely busy over the last few weeks interviweing, meeting with legal counsel, investigating, and preparing a 19 page accurate, victim-sensitive, church-sensitive, legally correct report. Praise the Lord that are leaders will take the proper precautions not to release information that may have other legal ramifications to protect its members and church. Most federal privacy laws would bind over state laws from what I've been told. It takes time to seek legal counsel to make sure we are all protected. You criticize those for the very thing that they are doing as a service to the church family by using the process against them. He said he would provide a written response. Praise the lord that our leaders are strong and will not be bullied by young know-it-alls who are trying to make a name for themself in their industry! There is a BIG difference in not being prepared immediately and not at all releasing information or records. I have no more information than any of you - probably less than even some of you. However, am I the only one who understands reason and reality here. Do you realize what all goes into releasing information of that nature on a whim or few days notice? You can see that this transcript begins after 3 other recent attempts which didn't satisfy JM's impatience. It's not like this is the first encounter or contact. Most of us would have reacted with much more frustration and non cooperation than was here at this point in this process taking all that has transpired in the last few weeks and even months. I hope you respect my openness and genuine mostly non-informed opinion. I want the same as you and any pure motive church members. But let's give some of these people who have given up their time, tears, sweat, name, privacy, mind, heart, skills, etc. a bit of a break for trying their best to heal the church because of their love for the Lord and their church. Why attack the messengers who are putting all of themselves out there for the good of the church. Most of you can't even disclose your name (which most wouldn't know who you are anyhow) on some silly internet blog and you criticize these others who are sacrificing for you. God have mercy! Offline and back to work.
Stephen
Ezekiel,
See how important it is to read the Word of God. See how when they found the book and read it, they realized all the wrong they had been doing. That is why we ALL NEED TO READ THE BOOK--so we will know what He expects of us and how WE might not sin against Him. Also, see how the ones who are doers receive His mercy and how the ones who are "do-not-doers" receive His wrath. Yes. Amen.
I knew you would eventually work your way back to this part of the Bible and find my screen name and show it to me. Were you surprised about the story that goes with the name?
Dee
mom4 said...
"Pardon my sarcasm, I am just sick and tired of not having a man of God as a leader and those with little or no knowledge of the facts standing ignorantly behind him.
I will welcome a meeting where the ignorance of all can be erased."
*********
Me, too.
Dee
Stephen,
I wish the leaders had taken as much care to protect this church morally as they have in protecting the church legally.
Stephen,
Here are two quotes from DC:
DC: [Speaking over JM] I’m not interested in what the Tennessee Code says.
DC: You give me a good reason for it and I’ll . . . uh . . .
s coombs,
The problem with your opening statement is this request for information didn't just pop up in the last month.
Folks have been requesting access to financial information and meeting minutes for a year now and the answer has been consistent. NO NO NO NO.
I know they are busy now, but even that is not an excuse for not obeying the law.
It was not obeying the law in the first place that caused the fiasco in December on PW. Had it been dealt with correctly in June, we wouldn't be reading about it in the papers now.
My first question is why meeting minutes would not be available immediately in today's world of technology.
Is the church leadership going to have to doctor the documents before anyone can see them?
What's in the meeting minutes that can't be shared with the congregation?
This is nothing different than what's been going on since Steve Gaines arrived.
There is a void of leadership inside Bellevue we have never seen before. It's a sad day when the church leadership has to be forced to do the right thing.
loadac,
1. Read the rules. Profiles must be visible.
2. Change your screen name to something a little less... colorful.
Then you can post.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
******
Announcement
******
I am cutting back on what I read on this blog.
The general idea is that up until recently, I have read everything on this blog. After six months, I'm not available to do that any more. Anything after 4:30 p.m. I consider optional.
I won't be lurking or posting after 4:30 p.m.
If I download a thread in the morning or after the sabbath, I might or might not look at what was posted at some point later, at my convenience.
If anybody wants me to see something please post it between the hours of 6 a.m. and 4:30pm Monday-Friday. Anything else will probably not get seen by me.
Thank you,
Joseph
s coombs,
That's okay. If my daddy were still alive, I would take up for him, too. You love your father and that is a right thing. I am sure he will eventually get around to giving a list of members to JM so that they can "write" to members privately instead of them having to have all this blogging going on where the whole world gets to see. That list is very important because, you see, that is one of the reasons we have to communicate like this. Some of the people on this blog never in their life had communicated this way. They had to get their younger family members to show them how. "Necessity is the mother of invention". Who said that, Benjamin Franklin? Anyway, I am not mad, but I must admit--that transcript did sound a bit like the classic Bellevue leader doing the "stonewalling" number again. I guess you are right, though, Son, because you know your father better than we do.
May the Lord of all creation be with you today as you think and do.
Dee
Steve,
It's nice of you to defend your dad, but you should know that due to the actions of him and the rest of the "elders-that-we-don't-have" have exhibited a pattern of conduct that had caused the destruction of the trust between them and the congregation.
Right now, there is a large number of people who if any member of that "inner circle" told them the sun was going to rise in the east the next day, would not trust that to be true until they watched it rise the next morning. This group of men has created the impression, rightly or wrongly, they are more concerned with personal power than the care and feeding of God's people. They are feeding off the desire of most people to desperately wish to trust them, but the number of people who have lost "confidence in management" as we say in the business world, grows every day.
This is what happens when you hire businessmen to run a church, who bring that cold hearted business mentality into the church administration. To run a things like a business means stepping on people. You should not do this in a church. It's been going on for years at Bellevue, and they really shouldn't be surprised when the congregation is tied of it and at some point, revolts.
Bellevue has swung to far to the side of "running things like a business". It's time to bring some balance back, which could be done with proper bylaws, and some serious turnover among self appointed elders.
I think that Sunday night should have shown everyone that the "congregationally approved" rhetoric was a farce. Which of the Personnel committee recommendations did the congregation "approve" with a vote Sunday night?
(A committee that didn’t exist two months ago, and I don’t remember voting to create the committee. Notice how the chairman of the committee was Bryan Miller in December, and Wayne Vandersteeg Sunday night? Don’t say this was because of the year change. The committee was only brought into existence two months ago. They could have had a chairman serve from December to December, especially as they have the demonstrated desire to make up the rules as they go along.)
This was undoubtedly the most serious issue the church has faced in 20 years, and it was so obvious how they were trying to avoid anything that smacked of a business meeting. They set precedent Sunday night not to submit things to a vote. We have finally crossed over and are now an elder run church.
That's just the cold hard truth, whether you wish to accept it or not. Is this the kind of church you want Bellevue?
loadac wrote:
"OK, i need to know what i did wrong? i thought my profile was visible but my comments got deleted.....how do i fix whatever you didnt like and do you by any chance still have what i typed so i dont have to type it out again? thanks"
Yes, I kept it. Go to the "Edit Profile" link after clicking the Blogger logo in the upper lefthand corner and click on "Make profile visible." Then change your screen name. If you make an e-mail visible, I'll send you the deleted comments or repost them for you.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
s coombs,
Do you know JM? Your statement about him seems to say you know him and his intentions.
I've met JM and he's a man who loves the Lord which means he loves Truth. Praise the Lord there are men who will fights for Truth no matter what the cost is.
As for you mentioning his youth. Remember David was used at a younger age to kill a giant.
I know you put a disclaimer removing yourself from ACE but I for one am not satisfied after reading your recent post today.
I've always felt ACE was multiple people blogging at different times.
You don't seem to be the same gentle spirit that I read yesterday.
"The report found no other examples of sexual abuse and said no other children were molested. Counseling will be made available either through the church or by a Christian counselor to any members who have been harmed by Williams' actions or hurt by the way in which the matter was addressed."
--Commercial Appeal
Father in Heaven,
I praise your name Father!!!!!!
The first report is out....
AND... SO FAR... THERE HAVE BEEN NO DISCOVERIES OF SEXUAL ABUSE OF CHILDREN AT BELLEVUE!!
LORD, PLEASE LET THIS MEAN THAT YOU ***HAVE*** BEEN PROTECTING THE CHILDREN OF BBC.
No matter what side we are on, let us take 10 seconds and proclaim our gratitude to you that the first report did not come out differently.
Bring us to our knees as we wait patiently for the next reports.
We pray that all the children have been safe a BBC. The world is watching to see what the reports show. Please let BBC be shown to have been a good steward of all the children entrusted.
In Jesus's name, amen.
Fellow Bellevue members,
God gave us a brain to use.
We have two men. Both think it is ok to have a minister on staff who sexually raped his own son. One of these men actually did the act.
The other is a pastor who has a moral and spiritual responsibility to protect the sheep under his care and yet did not.
Yet Steve Gaines supporters want Paul Williams fired and not Steve Gaines. The only reason is because Paul Williams actually committed this sin while Steve Gaines only believed it was ok to serve in ministry as long as you've asked forgiveness for this sin.
Do any of the pastors supporters recommend hiring a minister who believes "gross moral failure" does not disqualify him from ministry?
If you do not believe this would you have voted to bring Steve Gaines in as pastor knowing how he feels about this issue? I would not have.
If you would not vote for a minister who believes past pedophilia does not disqualify him from being a minister then you are deluded and engaging in a double standard.
I was happy to have Steve Gaines as pastor a year and a half ago. I can no longer support him now. Over and over in this blog we have heard his supporters say "wait for the final report. We don't know what Paul actually confessed to the pastor. He may have lied to the pastor." We now know he specifically told the pastor he had raped his son, and yet the pastor did NOTHING. Mothers, fathers, grandparents where is your outrage? Where is your shame?
We must have a business meeting to determine if Steve Gaines should continue to be our pastor. If his supporters win then I will leave my beloved church; but I will leave with a clear conscience before Jesus and my children that I took a syand for what is right.
The statute clearly states a member has access to certain records, including member lists, upon five days written notice. It does not give the leadership a pass for being too busy. The church has plenty of attorneys who are aware of the statute. Do you believe they've never discussed the members' rights to information with those attorneys? "Too busy" is an unacceptable excuse. They could reassign some of those monitoring the blog (hello to all inside BBC) to gather the requested information for Josh or watch him make copies.
If they did not want to be subject to the T.C.A. they never should have incorporated. But it's too late to back out of it now. The members are legally entitled to the information. Bellevue is in willful violation of the law. Why? What do we have to hide?
pinker,
ok..no problem
Ok, changed the name and i think i fixed the profile thing. i left everything open but didnt allow everybody to read my blog. is there anything else i need to do? do i have to share my email?
Great Knock - I agree
Telos - please. We all have the full transcipt so by handpicking and pulling 2 quotes out of context shows your bias and no reasonable person will even consider it.
Danrather - you are mixing and combining various issues into one conclusion which results in a false conclusion. I don't undertand the leadership comment. DC has been on payroll for 1 month or so and came into this after the fact and is trying to help the church. The no,no,no,no was in response to the repeated immediate demand of infromation/records that couldn't be provided at that moment. This request in the last 2 weeks is completely independent of any prior requests from prior issues to different leaders. He could be relaxing in retirement or enjoying the fruits of his years of labor at his old position instead of giving up his time, money, freedom, reputation, health, etc. because of the Lord's calling and his love for his church. How many of you would be willing to sacrifice at that cost? Not many, including myself!
2006huldah - Thanks!
There's still a DA and DCS investigation to complete.
pinker,
sbblogmdratr@yahoo.com
Westtnbarrister - It's amazing how many of you have very little understanding of the role of the senior pastor and the leaders of the church. Don't tell us what laws are being broken until we see proof that they have been from someone with that authority who knows what they are talking about. I sure don't and I doubt many, if any, here do. It's amazing the bold accusations that are made here without one evidence of concrete physical proof or consequence of them.
What happened to Mark Dougharty? What is he doing? With DC on board, didn't that free him to run copies of finance committee minutes?
“You are mixing and combining various issues into one conclusion which results in a false conclusion."
-This is babble - Not so.
BBC includes all leaders. It doesn't center around DC. A pass on TN Statutes has nothing to do with hiring and firing of BBC. Again, where's Mark Dougharty? He's known of these requests for a long time.
Where is Bruce Brooke? He's known about these requests for a long time.
Why didn't Steve Gaines assign someone to produce these documents last year?
Where is Wayne Vandersteeg? He's known about these requests.
Where is Harry Smith? Where is Bryan Miller? Where is Jeff Arnold? Where is John Caldwell?
If anyone is led to become a minister, they better be called into the ministry by God.
If they are in ministry, they better only deal in Truth.
If they can't, I'd run to the nearest beach and hang out there after leaving the business world.
stephen, If you wouldn't mind emailing me I would appreciate it- we have some mutual friends and I would like to talk to you.
ILMC,
my husband is not a deacon. And for the record, I have heard this info from a few people who have no reason to lie to me. So I guess we will just have to wait and see, there is no reason to argue about it.
danrather,
I can assure you that s coombs is not Ace.
Does anyone agree with me that it this is good news...
"The report found no other examples of sexual abuse and said no other children were molested. Counseling will be made available either through the church or by a Christian counselor to any members who have been harmed by Williams' actions or hurt by the way in which the matter was addressed."
--Commercial Appeal
(See my post above for context)
Fellow Bellevue members,
God gave us a brain to use.
We have two men. Both think it is ok to have a minister on staff who sexually raped his own son. One of these men actually did the act.
The other is a pastor who has a moral and spiritual responsibility to protect the sheep under his care and yet did not.
Yet Steve Gaines supporters want Paul Williams fired and not Steve Gaines. The only reason is because Paul Williams actually committed this sin while Steve Gaines only believed it was ok to serve in ministry as long as you've asked forgiveness for this sin.
Do any of the pastors supporters recommend hiring a minister who believes "gross moral failure" does not disqualify him from ministry?
If you do not believe this would you have voted to bring Steve Gaines in as pastor knowing how he feels about this issue? I would not have.
If you would not vote for a minister who believes past pedophilia does not disqualify him from being a minister then you are deluded and engaging in a double standard.
I was happy to have Steve Gaines as pastor a year and a half ago. I can no longer support him now. Over and over in this blog we have heard his supporters say "wait for the final report. We don't know what Paul actually confessed to the pastor. He may have lied to the pastor." We now know he specifically told the pastor he had raped his son, and yet the pastor did NOTHING. Mothers, fathers, grandparents where is your outrage? Where is your shame?
We must have a business meeting to determine if Steve Gaines should continue to be our pastor. If his supporters win then I will leave my beloved church; but I will leave with a clear conscience before Jesus and my children that I took a stand for what is right.
The no,no,no,no was in response to the repeated immediate demand of infromation/records that couldn't be provided at that moment.
Appropriate notice was given under the statute. DC may not have had time. Others certainly did. The legislature did not concern itself with how long a particular man has been on staff or how busy schedules are. They recognized the necessity of giving nonprofit members access to records. They included a five-day notice provision to give the nonprofit (our church) time to gather documents.
Again, that reasoning does not hold up and it is unacceptable.
I understand more than you know. This is not about the senior pastor or your father. I need no proof of anything. I've got all I need. I know the statute and I know it was not complied with in a timely fashion. I am not making any judgments about your father. I do not know who made the decision not to follow the statute. I am making a simple declaration that Bellevue is not in compliance with the statute. I'm a lawyer perfectly capable of understanding the law for myself. I've discussed the statute with two other attorneys, one a known expert in Tennessee nonprofit law. They both agree with my assessment of the law. The law is unambiguous.
Would Moses have passed the qualifications to be a minister?
Abraham?
Jacob?
Aaron, the idol (Golden calf) builder?
What about the Apostle Paul who approved the martyrdom of the saints in the first persecution?
Would we want these men as assistant pastors at BBC?
Are we perhaps being legalistic?
Are we forgetting Amazing Grace?
Or does someone out there have an agenda...?
Westtnbarrister - you ask some legitimate questions about MD and others responsibility. I would assume that there are reasonable answers, but I don't know what they are and I hope you get them. I thought it was known fact that BB was gone and totally out of all this - I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure. Don't forget to pray for his lovely wife and family, also.
Loadac Hip Hop Rap...
I died laughing when I read your screen name. Somehow, it sounds more like a guy name than a girl name, though. I'm an older lady, but do you think it might be entertaining if I were to change my name, too? I was thinking of something like "NAMETHANG". Whatcha thank?
Dee
loadac,
You're okay. Thanks. Still pushing the envelope a little with that name, but I'll let it stand. You don't have to post an e-mail address. Post very much and you'll soon be known as "LHHR" anyway.
Here are your two comments from earlier:
loadac hip hop rap wrote:
How long do you think before this is all resolved? meaning the newly formed INC. is satisfied and the blogs have died down?
7:09 AM, January 30, 2007
loadac hip hop rap wrote:
While i fully support that members should be able to speak to the whole membership and such I'm not sure what i think about Tennessee law letting any random member who for all i know could be a scam artist who read the how to be a member part of the bulletin and fooled the minister counseling him and joined the church to gain access to the membership and is going to steal peoples identity. I want my information to be safe when i give it to people and a law that allows any of 28,000 people who's names are on the roll to gain access to all my info scares me.
There needs to be some kind of compromise in which the church mail room will mail it out to all the members baring vulgarity and selling things. that way our private information is "relatively" safe yet the message gets out to the people.
Thoughts???????
9:10 AM, January 30, 2007
Stephen,
I appreciate your obvious love and respect for your Dad. I saw you Sunday night and you look like a nice guy.
I think you might be mistaken with some of the facts relating to the releasing of requested documents. Josh did not just drop by Friday to request those documents. The request was made in writing in advance as according to the law. I'm sure things were busy, with the report coming out and training that was apparently also done on Friday; yet it was the responsibility of the church to follow the law with regard to the written request as well.
I don't think anyone here is out for blood; they only want transparency and truth from the church they love.
Then where are the ramifications, indictments, or whatever the legal jargon is?
Please respond and behave as Christ would or at least until these come out, assuming they ever do.
Let's all meet at the cross and stop trying to "win."
Let's start putting "bricks" back into the "walls" of BBC instead of tearing them out.
Let's have a revival.
What we bind on earth is bound in Heaven.
What we loose on earth is loosed in Heaven.
Let's take off the bindings that we have put on each other.
WTN,
are there any exceptions to who the list must be provided to or reasons it should not be provided?
S Coombs said...
Then where are the ramifications, indictments, or whatever the legal jargon is?
Please respond and behave as Christ would or at least until these come out, assuming they ever do.
I'm sorry; I don't understand. Is this addressed to me? (not being sarcastic; asking honestly) :)
concernedsbcer - I specifically stated and explained that this 1/25 encounter was not the first request so you haven't even read my posts completely in the last few minutes so don't tell me i'm misinformed on those facts, at least. There were 3 in a few days a week prior to that which partially explained the famous no, no, no, no.
I have never read PDC or PDL.
Stephen,
Telos - please. We all have the full transcipt so by handpicking and pulling 2 quotes out of context shows your bias and no reasonable person will even consider it.
Reply:
I picked these two on purpose. It shows an attitude. The rest of the transcript is whitewash.
And, yes, I am of the opinion that this leadership is full of pride, arrogant, and hurtful in their actions.
Sorry to be the bad guy. I am still open minded, but there are so many indications of wrong doing that I have to admit a bias at this point.
In the end, I will side with truth.
S Coombs
Your statment shows the lack of communication from both sides and how people read into what the other side is saying. If everybody reads the transcript, both sides can find things to frustrate them. If cooler heads would prevail their could be a dialog. It is obvious that DC was not wanting to respond to josh by continuing to state I will give you a complete written response. Josh did not inquiry into when that response would be provided. Josh was trying to get DC to admit that they knew they were in violation of the statute. The point that Westtnbarrister who happens to have a JD degree like myself was pointing out that the church is in violation of the statute which requires them to respond in the 5 business days. I think that a proper response from DC is that we have not been able to complete the request but that you can expect a response on a date certain. There is not so much frustrations between both sides that it would probably be best to bring in a mediation group to allow both sides to talk and workout the situation.
concerned - No that was not directed at you.
Is it ***inherently*** wrong to use business techniques to run a church.
No, in my humble opinion.
Most western democratic business practices can find their historical origin...
...ready for this?
...in the Bible.
After all the talk here, I am becoming curious about PDC, PDL.
I have owned the books for years. I have many unread books in my house.
I would like to reach out to James Sundquist, Lindon, and Imaresistor.
I would like us to discuss leading a revival here.
The PDC and PDL books are causing quite a stir.
It is said by my three fellow bloggers that these two books are wrong.
steven crawford - good points - I think I agree with you.
telos- fair points. I hope you do.
One must be very careful when judging others attitudes, especially human beings who are doing their best to which many others wouldn't attempt. You seem to expect perfection in attitude, speech, timing, facial expressions, words, etc. You guys actually have higher expectations of these supermen then I do. Wow!
There's a difference between law and reasonable spirit of the law under unique circumstances - even I know that.
danrather said:
I know you put a disclaimer removing yourself from ACE but I for one am not satisfied after reading your recent post today.
Dan, I tend to agree with you. Did anyone else find it strange that Stephen Coombs suddenly shows up here on this blog and starts posting, after Nass banned Ace from posting yesterday? I find that to be a little coincidental?
S_coombs: I'm sorry; I did read all your posts in their entirety.
You said (8:57 AM)DC said he would be willing to provide what they were required by state law. He said they were not prepared to release that at this time.
You said (at 9:32 AM) "This request in the last 2 weeks is completely independent of any prior requests from prior issues to different leaders."
The point I want to make is that State Law says these documents must be released within 5 days after a written request.Here is a link to show you all the laws required from a non-profit. http://www.congregationapproved.org/Tennessee%20Code/Tennesseecode.htm
With all due respect, the issue is one of following the Tennessee State law regarding non-profits.
My husband and I literally became physically ill as a result of what we heard and saw on Sunday night at Bellevue....including seeing the smug, prideful, "Whew! I saved my paycheck!" look on Gaines' face. We also witnessed Fish baptizing a man in the baptismal pool before the service began. How sickening were the sights that night. How sickening were the lies and hypocrisy that night. We also witnessed psychology played out on a grand scale that night.
When godless pagans know how to handle a situation with a "man of the cloth" admitting his homosexuality and raping of his son, how much more did Gaines and Fish and W. Williams also know it. They knew what to do and they also knew how to cover it up. Gaines also knew the Scriptures to pull out and twist in order to get people to buy it all. BUT GOD......God ripped their veil of secrecy right in two. The Holy Ghost is still giving Jesus' children the gift of discernment. This gift is manifested over and over and over again in most of the people involved in this blog. Truly, JESUS' children will not hear the voice of a stranger. We recognize right away that it is not the voice of our beloved Father.
I read today where Coombs has said he did not refuse anyone access to Bellevue info, etc. Strange....his voice is heard plainly telling Josh Manning "no, no, no, no" to his requests of same on a tape of their meeting last week. At what lengths these men will go to protect their little kingdom they have created at Bellevue while caring not to blaspheme The Name of The LORD and cause His Name and Church to be laughed at and scorned by the evil, ungodly world that is so in need of Jesus' eternal salvation!
Lies, lies, lies, and more lies. Requiring man-made policies to govern how to handle child-raping "pastors" when they have God's Word to instruct them??? Are they, too, mentioned (as Paul Williams was) in Romans chapter one???
These men need to be made to resign yet who will make them do it? There is a dictatorship and a devil's hidden playground there at Bellevue that does not allow anyone to even voice a word pertaining to anything that goes on at Bellevue. The leadership there pays no mind to God's inerrant and infallible Word. They pay no mind to The LORD Jesus or His glorious Name. The ONLY things they pay mind to are things such as this website, newspaper articles, television interviews, blogs, etc., that offer their dirty secrets to the public. Who is in position to step up to the plate and get them out??? Each one has PROVEN they do not belong in the office they bask in. THEY ARE HIRELINGS!!!!! HIRELINGS!!!!!
God in His infinite Mercy has someone or "someone(s)" chosen to do this very thing. They will come forward very shortly.
The following words are written on these men's walls......."MENE, MENE, TEKEL, PERES".
What GOD begins, He FINISHES. He WILL exalt The Name of His glorious Son and our eternal Savior Jesus Christ. JESUS is what it is all about. We can all either exalt and honor His Name or we too, can suffer the same demise in our own personal lives. God WILL exalt The Name Above All Names....JESUS.
We may not write on this blog again. It will depend only upon God's guidance......but know that we, too, are praying for all of you that are fighting to save Bellevue Baptist Church. It will be won as all of us continue to bow before The LORD Jesus and pray. HE will fight for us. HE has been doing the fighting all along.....and He is doing it splendidly.
We do have a website that you are welcome to visit at any time. It is called "Living Hope In Jesus" (www.livinghopeinjesus.com). It is all about Jesus. Feel free to share it with those who are lost or back-slidden. Time is about up in this old evil world. Jesus' Rapture is at the door. We must have Jesus. There is nothing else to have down here. He and He ALONE is EVERYthing.
Thanks for all that you are and all that you are doing to save Bellevue. May The LORD Jesus Christ ever bless you in the knowledge of Himself.
Sincerely in The LORD and ONLY Savior Jesus Christ,
Stephen and Bonita Ann Richie
John 11:40
bepatient,
Here is a link to TSC 48-66-101, 102, 103, 104 & 105. You may read and decide.
TSC 48-66-101
s coombs
I can sympathize with your feelings regarding this matter.
There is no way I would want my father in the slippery position of defending the pastor we currently have.
However, he did take the job.
S Coombs said...
concerned - No that was not directed at you.
Oops, sorry. I didn't see this before I responded! :) Thanks for the clarification.
He accepted the job after much prayer and counsel and prior to any or most of this stuff.
Let's pray about getting those two books and walking through them right here in this blog.
Perhaps someone like SeattleBrother would take up the pro-PDL/PDC side.
And let's take 80 days instead of 40.
And let's find out what is right and what is wrong with these two books.
Let's just do it.
For six months we have been telling our selves these two books are our greatest enemies.
With the Bible at myside, I do not fear any book.
Let's spend one month trying to see if we can fix those two books.
What if we find out we like the books?
I do not doubt that James Sundquist, imaresistor and lindon have all been hurt by church leaders who did evil things to them. I've been hurt. I know what it is like.
But is it possible that the two books were misused?
Perhapst the books alone are not the problem.
But there may be people out there who have misused the two books.
After all, I've seen people misuse the Bible. If that is possible, then I know it would be easy for someone to misuse two books by a guy in California.
So with James Dundquist, Lindon, and Imaresistor, and The Holy Bible at my side....
I do not think I will be led astray if we try to go through PDL here in this blog.
Coments?
Does anybody else notice that for somebody who said he would have little or no time to be on the blog, that S Coombes has been on here quite a bit? Just wondering, good to have you, S.
Stephen,
I never mentioned BB. I hate his name ever appeared on this blog. I do not believe I have ever discussed that because I feel for his wife and family. Regardless of his status, the church has access to other legal counsel.
I do not want to pick a fight with you, brother. I condemn neither you nor your father. Please know I have specifically prayed for your father during recent weeks. I do not know your dad, but some who do say he will not be bullied into compromising his integrity.
My entire point about those letters sent by Josh and others is this: the church is not in compliance with the law. If they believe there are valid legal reasons not to provide the information, that needs to be provided so it can be evaluated. However, I will tell them ahead of time there have no valid legal argument to hang their hats on.
Our leadership need to understand that secrecy energizes those asking questions. I don't claim to know the truth behind every accusation. Much of what has been alleged is probably false. I hope it is all false. However, the only way to settle it is to make information available to those beyond the inner circle. Once trust is compromised it is almost impossible to reestablish. If they get the truth out and there is nothing to it, we can all move on. Without the truth we will keep going around in circles as we have for months.
the great knock,
well said! (re: your 9:28 post)
bible in a year,
Start a blog and do an 80 day study of PD..I don't think this is the place for something of that length and breadth.
Kelly - it's already been proven and agreed that I am not ace. You must have a wonderful life that is free from any coincidences. I could be mistaken, but I think I began this prior to his being banned.
concerned - I understand the issue, but you don't seem to understand my open reasonable points about that.
I'm trying to give open, honest, reasonable comments under my own name. If I'm going to be attacked by cowardly anonymous folks or falesly accused of being somebody I'm not, then I will permantly remove myself from here and not come back. Those of you who might applaud that are not reasonable fair Bellevue-caring people. I thought maybe I could help. Many don't want actual truth or reasonable explanations. I really hope you find answers and peace as I also long for.
Bible-in-a-year said...
"The report found no other examples of sexual abuse and said no other children were molested. Counseling will be made available either through the church or by a Christian counselor to any members who have been harmed by Williams' actions or hurt by the way in which the matter was addressed."
--Commercial Appeal
Father in Heaven,
I praise your name Father!!!!!!
The first report is out....
AND... SO FAR... THERE HAVE BEEN NO DISCOVERIES OF SEXUAL ABUSE OF CHILDREN AT BELLEVUE!!
LORD, PLEASE LET THIS MEAN THAT YOU ***HAVE*** BEEN PROTECTING THE CHILDREN OF BBC.
No matter what side we are on, let us take 10 seconds and proclaim our gratitude to you that the first report did not come out differently.
Bring us to our knees as we wait patiently for the next reports.
We pray that all the children have been safe a BBC. The world is watching to see what the reports show. Please let BBC be shown to have been a good steward of all the children entrusted.
In Jesus's name, amen.
9:27 AM, January 30, 2007
I have strong independent reasons to believe Stephen is not Ace. I believe him.
Well I have a question...
What about that part where it says
"(1) The member's demand is made in good faith and for a proper purpose;"
I think an argument can be made that this request is not in good faith or a proper purpose- I for one do not one my records released to this group, and I know MANY others do not as well.
Stephen,
I give you credit. I like your response. We are less than perfect. However, people are placed in leadership to handle these situations. We should expect more from leadership, that is why they are chosen.
Stephen, these situations are all the result of lack transparency. Josh was not asking your Dad for his thoughts on Predestination. Letters were written ahead of time allowing for an appropriate response.
allofgrace,
I am under the conviction that we have abused the author of that book without even having looked at it.
westtnbarrister - Very good points. I basically agree with your last post that I read.
wilwarin - I'm spending time that I shouldn't on here and against my better judgement. I realize now how this can become addicting and an obsession. Especially, when defending or conversing about those you love which probably includes some of you. I assume many of you on here are people that I still respect, like, and care about. That is why I am having trouble removing myself. Can't you understand that?
s coombs
(Um...Westtnbarrister KNOWS the law) :/
AOG,
"To gain a good understanding of the OT scriptures, a study of the typology in these will be helpful: The Law and prophets, the Levitical priesthood, the Davidic kingdom."
What types have there been in Genesis and Exodus?
"Also, I pose these questions to you...what is represented in the annointing oil? Why did God restrict it's use to the priests?"
I believe the Holy Spirit is represented, but I don't think we've gotten far enough for that conclusion.
Anything holy would be for the priests to handle.
"Notice where the fragrant incense is placed in the Tent of meeting. What is represented in the fragrant incense?" That is God's presence I think.
"Also, go to the book of Numbers..notice how the tribes have different skills etc, that they are noted for. The tribe of Levi had one thing and one thing only which they did." We haven't gotten to Numbers yet.
These are tough questions. What is the point you are trying to make?
Joseph
s coombs-In case you missed my earlier post....
please email me.
What's him knowing the law (westtnbarrister) have to do with him personally understanding certain individuals and specific Bellevue church functions? I haven't argued the law with him. I'm not dumb enough to get slaughtered in that battle. I appreciate him and take him at his word on those legal matters. He seems to have reasonable fair posts. Wish it would rub off on telos.
"He could be relaxing in retirement or enjoying the fruits of his years of labor at his old position instead of giving up his time, money, freedom, reputation, health, etc. because of the Lord's calling and his love for his church. How many of you would be willing to sacrifice at that cost? Not many, including myself"
That is a bit of a 'self serving' statement. If your father loved scripture he would not be there protecting a pastor who ignores scripture. And, please do not pull the old 'he could be in retirement'. There is lots of heady power ego trip involved in being a part of the leadership of a mega.Even in a crisis. Like being on TV all the time. It is like working for a celebrity. If he were doing this for the Lord, he would tell everyone watching in TV land that his pastor does not know scripture. Instead of helping to spread deceit.
I would hope he loves the Lord and the truth of His word more than a building.
But, tell me. Is your father authorizing you to post what you are posting about him? There is no excuse for withholding the documents that members have requested. They are stalling for a reason.
Sorry, S Coombs, but your posts are ringing hollow based on past experience, words and actions of your leaders. My words are strong. They are meant to be.
s coombs,
I guess that begs the question, if a number of requests had been made the week prior, then when JM spoke with your dad face to face, that would have been after the five day window of opportunity to provide the requested information. Thus, the famous "no, no, no, no" scenario does seem more like stonewalling than anything else. jmo
(I imagine it must be difficult for you to talk about this... I may be wrong, but if this were my dad I was defending, I would have a hard time not being very upset. Again, jmo)
bepatient - I will have to e-mail you from home tonight. Sorry that I can't now.
Why won't anyone say, "yes, that **is** good news!" ??
"The report found no other examples of sexual abuse and said no other children were molested. Counseling will be made available either through the church or by a Christian counselor to any members who have been harmed by Williams' actions or hurt by the way in which the matter was addressed."
--Commercial Appeal
"Please respond and behave as Christ would or at least until these come out, assuming they ever do."
That is an interesting statement. You do not expect your own pastor to respond according to scripture?
no problem, I just wanted to make sure you saw it! Thanks !!
He would be (and will be) disappointed in my posting here (I assume) I hope it doesn't cause a problem with us. He has reprimanded the pastor publically and privately and advised him of his mistakes. Weird way of protecting someone? Self-serving - if you only knew or had a small % of that integrity.
HALLELUHAH! Help is on its way!!!
"Come, Lord Jesus" said...
"God in His infinite Mercy has someone or "someone(s)" chosen to do this very thing. They will come forward very shortly.
The following words are written on these men's walls......."MENE, MENE, TEKEL, PERES".
What GOD begins, He FINISHES. He WILL exalt The Name of His glorious Son and our eternal Savior Jesus Christ. JESUS is what it is all about."
*****
I, for one, am so glad to hear this! What a wonderful, encouraging letter to us who seek the truth and the light!
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Stephen and Bonita Ann Richie. The Lord is with you!
Dee
s_coombs said:
Kelly - it's already been proven and agreed that I am not ace.
crushed said yesterday:
OK--For those enquiring minds out there...It is official....s coombs is indeed the real thing. Stephen did email me as promised and not only answered questions only few would know but added something I had totally forgotten that had me rolling on the floor laughing. Yep, it is him!!! Stephen, it was great to hear from you! You made my night! Thanks!
All that was proven to me yesterday was that 'crushed' knew you to be the real Stephen Coombs. That does not prove to me you were not also Ace. I tend to believe you are not? I really hope you are not? He is quite the character!
"One must be very careful when judging others attitudes, especially human beings who are doing their best to which many others wouldn't attempt. You seem to expect perfection in attitude, speech, timing, facial expressions, words, etc. You guys actually have higher expectations of these supermen then I do. Wow! "
We can only judge actions, words. Accordingly, the leadership CHOSE to ignore scriptural precepts in dealing this situation and no one except this blog seems to care. You can argue statutes all day. I expect nothing less of your leadership but to stonewall. It is what they have excelled at for the last 7 months.
Your pastor does not follow scripture.
bible in a year,
I asked you some questions to give you something to study and think about.
Christ is the central figure in all of scripture..let that be your guide.
If you're convicted concerning Rick Warren, then do what you need to do about that...I, on the other hand, feel no such need. Thanks.
Looks like I can add Esther to my short list of those who do not deserve a response from me. Only those that are reasonable, open, and fair are worth time that I don't have to respond. You can choose to not repond to me if you believe I am doing that which I don't see how anyone could at this point. There are several here that in my short time I have already grown a respect for, even though I might not agree. I think that is fair.
Bible-in-a-year said...
Why won't anyone say, "yes, that **is** good news!" ??
"The report found no other examples of sexual abuse and said no other children were molested."
--Commercial Appeal
10:39 AM, January 30, 2007
(see my earlier post for context)
Kellys-
I hope some deletes your inflamatory posts.
Please Do NOT play the "Ace" name game.
Thank you Stephen for sharing from your heart. Your sincerity is much appreciated.
Bible in a year-
I am soooo there!!! I have been afraid to read the books because everyone says they are so bad. Would LOVE to go through them with you!!! Though, I think I will go to a library to pick them up. I don't think I want to line Warren's pockets anymore until I do the research.
Question-
Did DC know he was being recorded by JM? What have we concluded on the legality of this? Just wondering?
For those doubters, I can assure you S Coombs and ACE are not the same person.
Bonita, everything you wrote is true. The Word is Truth.
But the leadership of BBC
will think it is dramatic and silly.
They do not fear God as evidenced by their actions over 7 months.
God Bless you.
Thank you, Crushed.
And thank you, AllofGrace.
God bless you both.
Joseph
SC,
Can you ask your dad if his laugh Sunday night to SOL was just a nervous laugh or something else?
What is your opinion of how a Minister should respond to one of the sheep?
I have to leave now. If anyone wants to talk with me in an open respectful reasonable manner at church, please approach me. I sit in section P at 11 AM. I will respond nicely unless you start attacking DC's character or something. Even I as a member can question things of our leaders, even if one is my Dad. However, I know his character and integrity and that will never be in question with me. Keep in mind - I do not know much more if any as far as facts than any of you do. I respect those who will trust me with their identity (as I have trusted all of you anonymous strangers and friends) or talk to me in person. God bless all of you! Bye!
stephen,
Can you tell us if your father is an ORDAINED minister? What are his qualifications? Has he ever been to seminary? How did he get to be called 'associate pastor'?
Thanks.
Stephen,
I like you. Your posts are sincere. Here is my first post back in November. I must admit, the stonewalling is getting to me.
Blessings Stephen. I am offline. The thing about addiction may be our souls fighting for our Savior.
Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
Proverbs 24:3-6
3 A house is built by wisdom and becomes strong through good sense.
4 Through knowledge its rooms are filled with all sorts of precious riches and valuables.
5 A wise man is mightier than a strong man, and a man of knowledge is more powerful than a strong man.
6 So don't go to war without wise guidance; victory depends on having many counselors.
Each of us have our own stories of how we came to Christ. It was at this point we examined Christ's love for us. It was at this point the humility of His Love and Mercy struck us, wooed us, cared for us, and granted us a hope for our future. We were introduced to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
These are serious times that require serious discourse. Cavalier statements that disregard others feelings or lose track of Whose blessed name we profess is totally uncalled for. Dr. Rogers said something along these lines. Truth without love is butchery. Love without truth is hypocrisy. If I got this wrong - please, someone correct me - Proverbs 9:8-9.
The other morning I listened to another pastor speak of how Jesus spoke in parable. This pastor suggested that Jesus did this so that the listener could think about the whole story without getting into a defensive posture. He referred to this defensive posture as "judicial hardening." Judicial hardening occurs through the process of debate when your faith is challenged and results in the hardening of the heart. Some may not be challenging others' faith but some are questioning others' integrity. I guess I can see the hardening of the hearts.
I ask all those in concern to pray for humility. Please have a conviction for your point of view but balance it with a humility for another's point of view. God is omnipotent. God is sovereign. We are the recipients of life because a Man's love was so great that he had His flesh thrashed, nailed to some wood and hung for many to mock. I am compelled to remind you of His Church in this forum, His Life, His sacrifice, His grace and Mercy for our lives. His church is a vessel for our redemption. His church is a vessel for relationship. We are mutilating our own body.
So please reflect before you react. Please pray before you respond. And provide for others an edifying atmosphere to speak their hearts.
Proverbs 25:28 A person without self-control is as defenseless as a city with broken-down walls.
One of the comments that greatly disturbs me...
Dr. Gaines—In June 2006, Mr. Williams, with his wife present, told Dr. Gaines about the incident... Dr. Gaines had only passing knowledge of what Mr. Williams’ job duties were... Based on his beliefs that Mr. Williams was telling THE FULL TRUTH and that the children of Bellevue Baptist Church were not exposed to any danger or threat, Dr. Gaines did not seek counsel in the matter. This was a mistake, [???????]
one to which Dr. Gaines has admitted, in hindsight. At minimum, Dr. Gaines should have taken steps to learn exactly what Mr. Williams’ duties included, so he could ensure that there would be no harm to others. In fact, Dr. Gaines could have started investigating by asking Mr. Williams himself about his job duties, to ensure no unsafe exposure to children. In addition, he could have temporarily relieved Mr. Williams of his duties and put him on leave.
He could have simply taken the matter to other ministers on staff with more experience in the matter than himself.
Why should a senior pastor NEED to seek someone with MORE EXPERIENCE THAN HIMSELF????????????
HOW COULD HE NOT KNOW BETTER??????
His smirk or chuckle was an uncomfortable or nervous response to someone attacking him with finger pointing and words of pedophile silence or something like that where many could hear. Several staff wives were in tears over this. Does anyone feel that this was the proper and fair way for him to be approached in the sanctuary after the service? Believe me, many including me would have responded much worse to that. I personally as son have had to deal with that possible less than ideal response many times in life. However, who should have to or is really prepared to respond to someone attacking like that. In all his years of business, he was never treated as badly as many church family members in his first months have who are the very people that he has given so much for over the 36 + years he has been at BBC. It really breaks my heart and is a sad day.
"Only those that are reasonable, open, and fair are worth time that I don't have to respond. You can choose to not repond to me if you believe I am doing that which I don't see how anyone could at this point. There are several here that in my short time I have already grown a respect for, even though I might not agree. I think that is fair. "
Why would your having respect for me matter? What difference does that make to anything?
I am only interested in the Word and what the Word says. What does being 'reasonable and fair' have to do with the Word of God? That is man centered talk. The Word is not reasonable and it certainly is not fair.
The Word of God says what it says very clearly and your pastor did not even bother to follow it. That does not scare you?
That is the REAL issue here. Some choose to ignore that.
be patient said
I think an argument can be made that this request is not in good faith or a proper purpose- I for one do not one my records released to this group, and I know MANY others do not as well.
Piglet says:
How can you say that? Under what circumsatnce would you expect a member to request these things?
Is it not in good faith or a proper purpose to want to verify the truth? To settle a church dispute? To bring church matters before ...the church?
And what if there are things hidden? Is this what bothers you?
Do you want them to remain hidden?
Maybe you do.
And I think this hysteria about having your name, address, and phone number known are a cop out. You are on thousands of mailing lists owned by strangers. What is there to fear?
It's not social security numbers and bank accounts, for heaven's sake.
sickofthelies - amazingly, I don't even know the answers to most of those questions. I have kindof inquired some of those and have been meaning to find out for my own curiousity. Most staff members are not ordained or seminary taught from what I understand. Obviously, some positions would require that. I'm not sure which ones.
When Mr. and Mrs. Williams went to SG in june, 06, why did SG not find it even slightly CREEPY that Mrs. Williams, after learning that her husband had raped her son, was still WITH him?
Another point I would like to make is this:
Why was SG not concerned enough for the children in our church that he would AT THE VERY LEAST ask PW what his job duties were?
It's a little far fetched for me to believe that SG did not already know what he did. Isn't that HIS JOB??????
For those of you that say he just made a mistake...do you REALLY want a church of this size run by a man that doesn't appear to be any smarter than THAT?
"His smirk or chuckle was an uncomfortable or nervous response to someone attacking him with finger pointing and words of pedophile silence or something like that where many could hear."
Attacking him? I think you had better rethink that post very quickly. Perhaps ask the blogmeister to remove it.
If that was his reponse, being in the position he is in protecting this pastor, then he does NOT have the skills for this job. Skills in more ways that one.
" Several staff wives were in tears over this. Does anyone feel that this was the proper and fair way for him to be approached in the sanctuary after the service?"
I suppose she could get him on the phone? Staff wives in tears? Karen is a survivor of Abuse. Are those staff wives? Or were their feelings just hurt with truth?
Karen has witnesses too. And she is right. Pedophilia thrives in Silence. She should know. Your pastor did not care.
" Believe me, many including me would have responded much worse to that. "
Thanks for the insight into your character.
Piglet,
it is the principle of the matter- I do not feel the intentions are in good faith, because regardless of the actions of the leadership of BBC, this development will lead to NOTHING except division. Mark my words.
So, to put this on a personal scale, this is MY information, and I don't feel that this is a good faith effort. So shouldn't the church or law for that matter, err on the side of those whose information it is?
stephen,
I just called your father's office and asked these questions:
1) Is DC an ordained minister?
ANSWER: NO
2) Did he attend seminary?
ANSWER: NO
See how easy that was?
By the way, S coombs implied that his dad is not working for the money. Is he being paid?
Most churches make staff salaries available to members.
I want to make sure everything is very clear.
stephen:
I just called your father's office and asked these questions:
1) Is DC an Ordained minister?
ANSWER: NO
2) Did he attend seminary?
ANSWER: NO
See how easy that was? And I'm not even related to him.
Run a full page ad in the CA, get a billboard, make a commercial, if people want to be at a meeting, they will be. If they want to know about IDC they will find out. You don't need my address to do it.
Kelly S-
OK- Hopefully we can put the SC=Ace rumors down once and for all. I received emails from both of them. I checked the originating IP address on both emails. They do not match. The emails from Ace and Stephen Coombs did not come from the same computer atleast. Based on the time the emails were sent, the IP address should have matched if they were one in the same. Whew! Can we stop this now? :)
s coombs said:
In all his years of business, he was never treated as badly as many church family members in his first months have who are the very people that he has given so much for over the 36 + years he has been at BBC. It really breaks my heart and is a sad day.
Piglet says:
I truly do sympathize,as I said before.
Surely your father must realize how deeply hurt a lot of people are -- ESPECIALLY those with child abuse in their past. A little compassion, and an attempt to understand would go a long way.
If he has accepted this position to help our church, and I hope he has, then he cannot posture himself to cover wrongdoing or be complicit in it. This may be a hard road.
What if God has placed him there to be that man to stand up without fear and proclaim truth and righteousness instead of the status quo?
If so, I hope he doesn't shrink from that responsibility.
I will be praying for him.
Stephen,
I can't imagine how difficult it would be to watch my father deal with what's happening at my church. I'm sure it must be difficult for you to hear what everybody is saying. I agree, we should all speak to each other with respect, even if we don't agree, even if we are identifying practices that are contrary to Scripture.
I also want to add that MANY people are grieving. I have grieved for months, but nothing like I've grieved since the abuse became public knowledge.
As a parent of two young boys, I an not only grieving, but also, angry, dismayed, betrayed, shocked, confused...
and I can't help but wonder if all of those years in service to the Lord at Bellevue were wasted...
may the Lord grant peace and healing to each one of us. May we be whole in the light of His Word
crushed(11:10), thanks, that is good enough for me. My doubts are being laid to rest.
Kelly
be patient said:
Piglet,
it is the principle of the matter- I do not feel the intentions are in good faith, because regardless of the actions of the leadership of BBC, this development will lead to NOTHING except division. Mark my words.
So, to put this on a personal scale, this is MY information, and I don't feel that this is a good faith effort. So shouldn't the church or law for that matter, err on the side of those whose information it is?
Piglet says:
What, exactly, WOULD be a good faith effort? I don't understand.
Also, did anyone say UNITY is the goal here? I thought it was getting the truth first. Should that not be our primary goal as followers of Christ?
If we get to the truth, I believe we can UNITE to seek solutions to our leadership problems.
The problem is that there are many who do not want the truth known.
Let me ask you,ARE YOU AMONG THEM?
Esther-
As far as why the staff members wives were in tears, you do not know what their past consist of. Please do not try to act like you are inside their head. I mean this respectfully. You do not know. As far as vicitms go, some have been very vocal about speaking out. Some of us have sat back a little. Personally, I have found great freedom in forgiveness. If anyone can get their hands on a Dr. Rogers sermon - The Root of Bitterness, you should. I listen to it often.
It amazes me how much junk mail people will accept in their boxes everyday from people who they do not know and who get their addresses from who knows where, and whose intentions they don't really know either. Yet if a fellow church member asks for a mailing address list from the church, for expressed purposes, it now becomes a privacy issue. How many individuals, organizations, etc. have your address right now without your knowledge or permission..do you protest with the same vehemence?...just curious
"In all his years of business, he was never treated as badly as many church family members in his first months have who are the very people that he has given so much for over the 36 + years he has been at BBC. It really breaks my heart and is a sad day."
Dealing with members is always considered 'inconvenient' to mega staffers. They often forget the same members pay their salaries.
And, members feel they have been treated pretty badly, too, by their leadership protecting a pedophile minister, stonewalling, and conveniently forgetting scriptural precepts.
S. coombs said:
His smirk or chuckle was an uncomfortable or nervous response to someone attacking him with finger pointing and words of pedophile silence or something like that where many could hear."
Stephen, you and your dad need to get your story straight. After he laughed in my face, some men along with my witness persuaded me to go and confront him about it. He denied EVER talking to me, EVER hearing me.
So now, your story is that He DID hear me?
And, by the way, my hands were in my pockets, and i was not pointing my finger at him, but then again, how would DC know? He did not see me or talk to me, remember?
crushed wrote: "As far as why the staff members wives were in tears, you do not know what their past consist of. Please do not try to act like you are inside their head. I mean this respectfully. You do not know. As far as vicitms go, some have been very vocal about speaking out. Some of us have sat back a little."
crushed, Karen went up to DC and said, "Pedophilia Thrives In Silence". What is there to make them cry?
And for this, Karen is being attacked here by DC's son for being out of line. Let us defend Karen. She did nothing wrong. She spoke a truth she knows much about and lived through.
But the response from HER leadership was totally inappropriate. And now, it continues on this blog.
If wanting truth sounds bitter to you, then by all means, ignore it.
be patient
I have to get offline.
But I will check back later for your response.
Posing this question again, it got lost in the shuffle.
While i fully support that members should be able to speak to the whole membership and such I'm not sure what i think about Tennessee law letting any random member who for all i know could be a scam artist who read the how to be a member part of the bulletin and fooled the minister counseling him and joined the church to gain access to the membership and is going to steal peoples identity. I want my information to be safe when i give it to people and a law that allows any of 28,000 people who's names are on the roll to gain access to all my info scares me.
There needs to be some kind of compromise in which the church mail room will mail it out to all the members baring vulgarity and selling things. that way our private information is "relatively" safe yet the message gets out to the people.
Thoughts???????
yes, I do react that way. Esp. if there is NO reason they need my address. There are other ways to make your information known. I do not approve of the choices being made by this organization and I will not support them being given my information.
Unity should be our goal. I think it has already be been proven over and over that even when two people know all the facts and the TRUTH they still disagree. The Bible does speak a great deal on truth, but it also speaks on unity...
If BBC releases this list, it will set a precedent and people with other motives will be popping out of the woodwork to get that information. This is not just about IDC.
Stephen
I am a friend of your dad's. Does he know you are on here? David is a good man who has done alot for this church and community. But the way he is handling this is scary. I know he just started, but he needs to be careful.
"The Bible does speak a great deal on truth, but it also speaks on unity... "
Always study those passages in context. It is always referring to the unity of 'believers'. Believers denotes those that have unity in the Word of God...Truth. Unity is about unity in the WORD. There is no other unity that matters.
bepatient,
Do you understand that releasing the membership list is THE LAW?
BBC doesn't get to decide if they want to follow it or not.
Here are some of the things YOU said last week about following the law:
1)
" am not sure if the Bible specifically mentions churches, but we are as a whole to submit to the authority of the government
2)
Romans 13:1-3
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
12:38 AM, January 27, 2007
3)
be patient said:
I think we all agree that God says we have to submit to the laws and authorities that govern us.
These are YOUR quotes, bepatient. I knew this press release was coming so I saved these quotes about how you felt about obeying the law.
So now, is it your position that we should NOT follow the law?
Esther-
Whoa...Back up. I did not call anyone bitter. I said forgiveness has allowed me freedom from the past and that I listen a lot to Dr. Roger's sermon about the root of bitterness. It has played an integral part of my healing. I was simply suggesting it may help others on their journey, too. Only trying to help. Furthermore, I was not attacking Karen. I feel for her. I really do. I was simply saying please do not attack the staff members wives for crying. We - you and I- do not know what was going thru their minds or what their experiences consist of. Speculation is not truth.That's all.
crushed,
I think that Esther was quoting what Stephen said. Those were not Esther's words about the staff member's wives crying.
Anyone? am i correct?
thisCrushed said...
Kelly S-
OK- Hopefully we can put the SC=Ace rumors down once and for all. I received emails from both of them. I checked the originating IP address on both emails. They do not match. The emails from Ace and Stephen Coombs did not come from the same computer atleast. Based on the time the emails were sent, the IP address should have matched if they were one in the same. Whew! Can we stop this now? :)
Reply:
Am I the only one with 2 computers in my house with different IP addresses, that I could send seperate emails from, just seconds apart?
Just throwing this out there, after reading the report, would any of you trust this group of men to run the daycare your children attend? I wouldn't.
SOTL-
I was referring to Esther's 11:06 post where she questioned why the wives would be crying....basically implying they were not vicitms...how dare they cry. That is what I got out of it. Esther, please correct me if I am wrong.
Charlie,
I have participated in a poltical chat room for many years. WE discuss current events and the elections.
There are many who come in there and do just what you describe. They post under two different screen names, with different computers.
We have 3 computers in my house, with one being a laptop.
If i wanted, I could be sitting here typing on my desktop ANd posting from my laptop, too.
Am I doing that? no..I would get confused and mess it all up, lol..but i know that it is done all the time.
bepatient said:
If BBC releases this list, it will set a precedent and people with other motives will be popping out of the woodwork to get that information. This is not just about IDC.
I have to agree. There has to be some controls to who and why these lists are given out.
What if a memeber sells cemetary lots, and wants a list of members so they can do a mass mailing to try to sell lots? Or perhaps another member wants to try and sell life insurance policies to other members?
There has to be controls set in place, espceially in this day and age.
I've said this before, but it probably bears repeating... the member list is no different than a church member directory - names, addresses, phone numbers, and pictures. When a church/class directory comes out, do you all protest then too? If you do, that's fine, that's your privilege. But I'm just saying, otherwise, this sounds like "much ado about nothing."
I have studied those passages in context. We should seek unity.
The Bible also speaks on love, forgiveness, grace, etc. But those parts of the Bible always seem to be neglected around here instead we see over and over passages about truth and judgment. That is not all there is. They need to be together, grace and forgivness AND truth.
If people don't want their information released, shouldn't you respect that instead of using the law to force them into it?
crushed,
Ok..but I'll weigh in anyway.
"I" am the one that said to DC,
"pedophilia thrives in silence"
That is all that was said...perhaps I would have gone on to say more had he not laughed in my face and stopped me from saying anything further.
Now I have to agree with Esther. Why would that make the staff wives cry? If they were crying maybe it was becuase they saw the way that DC had laughed in my face.
And if DC was not prepared for comments afterwards about his report, then he should not have taken on the task of delivering the hogwash. Did he come down to the front because he thought that he would get accalades and 'ataboys?
If he cant' take the heat, perhaps he should get out of the kitchen.
kellys said...
I have to agree. There has to be some controls to who and why these lists are given out.
What if a memeber sells cemetary lots, and wants a list of members so they can do a mass mailing to try to sell lots? Or perhaps another member wants to try and sell life insurance policies to other members?
There has to be controls set in place, espceially in this day and age.
Reply:
Obviously, you have NOT read TSC 48-66-101, 102, 103, 104 & 105.
BEpatient,
Dear, BBC has no choice.
THEY MUST RENDER UNTO CAESAR THAT WHICH IS CAESAR'S!!!!
SOTL,
I knew you were looking for something from me, not just genuine conversation like you said it was....
Anyway, I do still feel that way. I also think that BBC has a right to fight this- they do have some discretion (through the law) over who the list is released to. If it comes down to it, and they get a court order to release the list and BBC will not comply, I will send them my address myself and encourage others to do the same.
kellys said:
kellys said...
I have to agree. There has to be some controls to who and why these lists are given out.
What if a memeber sells cemetary lots, and wants a list of members so they can do a mass mailing to try to sell lots? Or perhaps another member wants to try and sell life insurance policies to other members?
There has to be controls set in place, espceially in this day and age.
my reponse:
kellys, if you do not like the law, it is your job as a citizen of the state of Tenn. to lobby the legislature to get it changed.
BBC doesn't get to say, " well, we don't like the law" and just not comply.
bepatient said...
"If people don't want their information released, shouldn't you respect that instead of using the law to force them into it?"
I understand that some people are sceptical, but if you do not want or are not interested in the truth, then we cannot convince you with it. Some are blissfully ignorant and choose to remain that way, however the law is the law and there is nothing the church can do but comply or be in contempt. If you do not want to have your mailing address released, that is your perogative and you can pursue whatever you want to stop it. That is your choice. The church does not have a choice but to comply.
Charlie Fox-
I get your point on the IP address. I could have tried to prove my point further but was trying not to be typing all day. For what this is worth, when everyone started speculating that SC was Ace, I sent Ace an email asking if it was true, who I was, and I would love to catch up with him, etc. I made it clear my current situation and how I was no threat to him if he did reveal himself to be SC. If he was SC, he would have known based on our friendship that I was no threat in regards to his ID. He replied sadly that he was not SC, does not even personally know SC, etc. Contrast to the reception I got from SC when he emailed me last night and found out who I was. Night and Day! I believe from his email that SC was as happy as I was to have reconnected. This is part of the reason I believe SC does not equal Ace.
Okay, just in case some are not interested in trying to find it themselves...
48-66-102. Inspection of records by members. —
(a) Subject to § 48-66-103(c), a member is entitled to inspect and copy, at a reasonable time and location specified by the corporation, any of the records of the corporation described in § 48-66-101(e) if the member gives the corporation a written demand at least five (5) business days before the date on which the member wishes to inspect and copy.
(b) A member is entitled to inspect and copy, at a reasonable time and reasonable location specified by the corporation, any of the following records of the corporation if the member meets the requirements of subsection (c) and gives the corporation written notice at least five (5) business days before the date on which the member wishes to inspect and copy:
(1) Excerpts from any records required to be maintained under § 48-66-101(a), to the extent not subject to inspection under subsection (a);
(2) Accounting records of the corporation; and
(3) Subject to § 48-66-105, the membership list.
(c) A member may inspect and copy the records identified in subsection (b) only if:
(1) The member's demand is made in good faith and for a proper purpose;
(2) The member describes with reasonable particularity the purpose and the records the member desires to inspect; and
(3) The records are directly connected with the purpose for which the demand is made.
(d) The right of inspection granted by this section may not be abolished or limited by a corporation's charter or bylaws.
(e) This section does not affect:
(1) The right of a member to inspect records under § 48-57-201 or, if the member is in litigation with the corporation, to the same extent as any other litigant; or
(2) The power of a court, independently of chapters 51-68 of this title, to compel the production of corporate records for examination.
I will say it again...
ACE is not Stephen Coombs!! I can assure you of that fact.
charlie(11:49), I understand what you are saying, and BBC has to follow the law.
loada,
I understand your comment, but just so you know, most churches publish church directories that besides just address and contact information, sometimes even have pictures. Bellevue even used to publish a pictorial dictory years ago. I don't know for sure, but I would assume that the reason BBC doesn't do that now is to avoid direct marketers getting a list of 30,000 church goers.
Having said that, at least until the past year, If I needed a phone number, all I would have to do is call the church operator and she would useually cheerfully give me that info. Over the past year when i've done that, i've gotten the third degree. "Who are you?" "Why do you need this info?" "How do you know this person?", etc etc.
There should not be a problem suppling my contact info to a group of church members for purposes of communicating church business. You can mail me whatever you want to mail me. The only reason I would not want this to happen is if there was a fear of government harrasment of church members, and we aren't at that point (yet).
the great knock (9:50 AM) said...
"Do any of the pastors supporters recommend hiring a minister who believes "gross moral failure" does not disqualify him from ministry?
If you do not believe this would you have voted to bring Steve Gaines in as pastor knowing how he feels about this issue? I would not have."
*******
No, I would not have wanted Steve Gaines to be our pastor had I known this. I wonder if the Search Committee even asked any questions along that line. I doubt it. I was thinking how even in the Gardendale video Steve Gaines tells of how he tried to "tick" off the Bellevue committee. Then, he goes on to say how they still wanted him because they then saw from his response that he would be a strong enough leader. Man, what a dumb way to establish whether or not Gaines was going to be able to lead our church. What a fitting result we now have from it, too. They should have used a biblical standard and they used a "worldly" standard. We, as a congregation, however, were not informed of their "test" of worthiness, were we? We trusted a few members of Bellevue to go out and find someone worthy of replacing Adrian Rogers. We were always kept in the dark. We were never allowed to have any sneak peeks at the possible candidates--not even a list of the names of candidates. Then, we were suddenly asked to confirm their secret selection.
Looking back and listening to what I am recalling here, we were too trusting. Look at us now.
Dee
Address privacy is something of a joke don't you think?...how does all that junk mail find you? It's not all addressed to "resident" either. I get mail trying to sell me something all the time...I just throw it in the trash...the truth is, there are thousands of data bases with mailing lists all over the world...that include your address, mine, and most everyone else's that has an address. If someone wanted to steal your identity, or run a scam on you...there are far easier ways to obtain the info they want than requesting a church's mailing address list. Every time someone has tried to scam me it's been over the phone or by email. But if you don't want info from fellow church members, just say that...complete privacy has become a misnomer these days unfortunately, and I think most people are aware of that.
bepatient
(1) The member's demand is made in good faith and for a proper purpose;
Question,
Who gets to decide what a 'proper purpose' is, and what would you say, from a legal standpoint since you appear to have such a command of the law, would be examples of "proper" and "improper" purposes?
KellyS said...
charlie(11:49), I understand what you are saying, and BBC has to follow the law.
Reply:
Thank you, KellyS.
PW is a member, what if he wanted a membership list so he could send us all a letter of apology? It wouldn't matter to you if that really was his intent or not, you would not want the church to release your information.
Am I mistaken about something? Did we have to give our SS # to join the church?
I can't imagine that I would have ever done that, since I hesitate to give it out, even when it is legitimate.
So, what's the problem?
bepatient,
I have to agree with you about PW knowing my address, but the fact still remains that it is the law.
To get a law changed, you have to go to nashville and talk to the legislators and try to convince them to change it. Until that happens, it remains as it is.
bepatient,
The LAW IS THE LAW, IS THE LAW, IS THE LAW.
finance guy,
I don't know the answer to that. I do not have a great command of the law. I am just reading what it says and I would assume that it is at the discretion of the organization that is being asked.. but I DO NOT KNOW for sure.
bepatient,
I have been part of a ' telephone crusade' to call the tenn. legislators about certain issues over the years. I have also been to Nashville to lobby for certain things, when I think that the law needs to be changed.
My issues have always been adoption, or education.
Sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't.
Start with your own state represenative or senator and go from there.
I don't agree with selling BEER on SUNDAY, but it is the LAW. If I don't like it, I petition Nashville to change the LAW.
charlie fox said:
I don't agree with selling BEER on SUNDAY, but it is the LAW. If I don't like it, I petition Nashville to change the LAW.
response:
Lol..lobbying nashville would be far more efficient than standing outside the 7/11 and taking everyone's beer away from them!!!
Unless I were to receive threatening mail, etc...I'm not going to give myself the nervous breakdown of trying to track down every person, organization, etc. who has my address, and try to find out how or where they got it. If it's something I don't want..I throw it in the trash..if it were threatening..I'd report it to the police, and the US Postal Service.
Be Patient
Sorry but you don't have a choice in the matter unless you drop your membership before the information would be released. As an attorney, I participated in a church breakup that went through Chancery Court. The court will require the release of the information so that communication can take place. The will even oversee the voting to ensure that it is properly held. It will not be a voice vote or show of hands vote. The election will be handled by the Court if necessary.
I belive all of this can be avoided with some communication between the two groups.
I don't know both sides of the story, I can only go by what I have read here but several serious issues have been raised. The questions remain because only one side is participating on this blog. I can understand how both sides can interpet the same information and develop two differnt views, as I pointed out earlier from the transcript of Josh and DC.
Currently, if I would put the majority of the blame on the current administration, since they have failed to provide a forum or release the requested information. It seems to me that this forum would have never been started or grown to the current size if the church had address the members questions and concerns.
I would request for everyone to look at the facts and the facts only not at the emotion involved in fighting for your side. Saying A lied is not a fact. That is your emotional response. The statment may be factually correct but you think it's misleading or it generates more questions that haven't been answered. Instead of referring to individuals as Haters or Liar's please understand that they want answers to their questions. Every member should be able to ask questions and get answers. My suggesting would be to address the questions to administration and the administration should provide the answer and post on the Bellevue Web Pages. The questions should only ask for facts and should not be opinionated.
I belive that everyone should shed their anonymous shield. If something is as important as everyone here believes they should be willing to stand up under their own name. If it is worth standing up for then the consequences you suffer will be worth bering. I now from what I speak. I lost a job because I stood up and fought for what was right. The proper changes were implemented after I was told not to come back, because I did what was right and would not back down.
I do have to wonder about the idea that SG was called to Bellevue so the members should not ask him to leave. God will sometimes give you your hearts desire, even though it was not in your best interest to recieve it. If SG's was called why did it require so much convincing, did our search committee not take no for an answer. Or the statments that God will remove SG, if he wants. How would this occur if the members must accept him and can not question. Would god have to strike SG down? I would prefer the members to vote on him instead of God haveing to intervene in such a manner.
all of grace,
It is a federal crime to send a threat through the USPS..it is called Mail Fraud. I know that when I was an insurance investigator, if someone would send in a false document through the mail, we could get them on mail fraud as well as insurance fraud.
be patient said
I think it has already be been proven over and over that even when two people know all the facts and the TRUTH they still disagree. The Bible does speak a great deal on truth, but it also speaks on unity...
Piglet says:
First things first. The truth has yet to be pursued and presented by this leadership. IDC, Inc. is pusuing this truth on behalf of the membership with or without be patient's approval.
Truth trumps unity every time.
You did not answer my question. Do you not WANT the truth?
Steven,
As a friend of your father I can attest to his uncompromising integrity. We are very fortunate to have him on staff. He could be taking time to spend with your mom and the grandchildren. But he was called to help our church during a crucial time. I would ask that you limit your postings. You are honorable like your dad but you will find that your words will be misunderstood and used against you and your dad. I wished it were not so but many who post on this board are not honestly looking for truth but just an opportunity to tear down our leadership. You dad has already been attacked on this board by people who have no clue. I would not want to see this happen to you.
bepatient,
I have a gut feeling that ALL requirements of TSC 48-66-102 were addressed and met in the letter requesting the info.
sotl,
Yea I knew that...that's why I don't worry too much about stuff I get through the Postal Service.
Just for the record:
I have TWO witnesses that watched DC state emphatically that he had NEVER seen me, NEVER talked to me..
I am NOT trying to tear anyone down.
I am reporting the TRUTH.
Stephen Coombs now states that He DID hear me.
WHICH one is it?
Did he or Didn't he?
I think it's a fair question.
JMO
I wished it were not so but many who post on this board are not honestly looking for truth but just an opportunity to tear down our leadership. You dad has already been attacked on this board by people who have no clue. I would not want to see this happen to you.
Piglet says:
Here again, someone says "Don't talk to THOSE people"
Where do you think all this started? If a member, especially a deacon, has questions and concerns, they SHOULD be addressed by our leaders. Since May 2006 they have atteempted to silence us.
Are you really surprised at our response? Now, really!
Are you one of those who thinks we'll all get tired and go away?
(Gee,if we can just refuse them any dialog or information until they get sick of this whole thing....aren't they sick of this yet...)
Bepatient said...
I don't know the answer to that. I do not have a great command of the law. I am just reading what it says and I would assume that it is at the discretion of the organization that is being asked.. but I DO NOT KNOW for sure.
As the possessor of some level of legal training, I would find it very difficult to believe that a judge would agree it's up to the discretion of the organization. The purpose of the law is to protect minority members, and that would defeat the purpose of the law if the organization could suddenly decide what a "proper purpose" was, and could constantly change that to thwart the minority.
Reading this, and then seeing the article in the paper just made my blood boil. What a jerk! That this guy is an associate pastor of any church, much less Belleuve, and treats church members as adversaries with such disrespect is diplorable!
As David Coombs and the rest of the church administration interacts with church members with the environment of the legal system hanging over the interaction, they shouldn’t be surprised if a judge ends up deciding what is a ‘proper purpose” or not.
This hiring of tough business men to be pastors in our church is wrong! They have an entire different mindset of dealing with people. The one person at that church that was a true pastor to his flock, Rob Mullins, was run off by these “business men”.
Things need to change before Belleuve truly becomes just another big social organization that oh, also just happens to hold church services.
If the leadership's strategy is
" we'll just ignore them until they get tired and go away"
I'd like to pose this question to them:
" How's that workin for ya so far?"
anyone:
What's the definition of insanity?
ANSWER:
Doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result.
Hello All,
I'm sure everyone will be delighted to hear from me. In regards to the list, I agree the BBC will most likely have to cough up. In studying some similar cases, I have seen where the corp can notify their membership in writing that this request has been made. At a cost of $2/person*30,000Members, thats around $60k. Also, some have mentioned the limitations on this statute and they are posted below.
c) A member may inspect and copy the records identified in subsection (b) only if:
(1) The member's demand is made in good faith and for a proper purpose;
(2) The member describes with reasonable particularity the purpose and the records the member desires to inspect; and
(3) The records are directly connected with the purpose for which the demand is made.
I hope everyone has a wonderful day!!
be patient
What kind of request would you consider in "good faith"?
What would be a proper purpose if it is not to get information?
Why would there be a law if the leaders would volunteer this informaion willingly?
Why would they NOT release this information to their own members?
Can I get any answers from you?
Do you not realize that the law is there for this very reason, to protect the interest of the members and make sure they stay informed?
SOTL said:
If the leadership's strategy is
" we'll just ignore them until they get tired and go away"
I'd like to pose this question to them:
" How's that workin for ya so far?"
and
anyone:
What's the definition of insanity?
ANSWER:
Doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result.
Piglet says:
That's great! LOL
A DR. Philism plus an Adrianism that make one beautiful point. :D
Commercial Appeal Link
"We can't just cavalierly release our mailing list and other information. We have to do what is proper," said David Coombs, the church's administrative pastor. "We've had a lot of requests for information lately and we're doing our best to research them and respond appropriately."
Coombs also emphasized that the requests for information had not been denied, but were being studied. Church leaders, he said, have been busy dealing with an internal investigation aimed at one of their own.
Transcript
Transcript of Manning – Coombs meeting re: 1/13/07, 1/17/07, and 1/18/07 requests for Bellevue Baptist Church mailing list, business meeting and financial committee meeting minutes, and group meeting location. Recorded at Bellevue Baptist Church, 2:35pm Thursday, January 25, 2007. Meeting in Coombs’ office.
Josh Manning: I am here . . . we sent a letter I think you got a copy of it, some other people did too, requesting the mailing list, the business meeting minutes for the last couple of years, and the finance committee meeting minutes for the last couple of years; and I was just swinging by to pick those up.
David Coombs: Well the answer is no, no, no no.
JM: Ok, well why is that?
DC: huh?
JM: Why is that?
DC: Because we’re not prepared to release those to you.
JM: Ok, the Tennessee Code says that within five days of a written request . . .
DC: [Speaking over JM] I’m not interested in what the Tennessee Code says.
JM: So you’re willing for Bellevue Baptist Church to violate state law?
DC: We’re willing to provide what information we’re required to by state law.
JM: You are by state law under the second . . . I’ve got the statue right here if you’d like to see it.
DC: I understand the statute. I’m very well versed in it.
JM: Let’s see here.
DC: You don’t need to read it to me. I know it.
JM: Ok, so you know it, and you know it says that meeting minutes are required, yet you’re not going to provide those.
DC: [Over JM] I know what it says. I know what it says.
JM: Do you . . . do you . . . would you admit that that’s a violation of Tennessee state law?
DC: I’m not admitting anything.
JM: Ok where’s the policy that says that you . . . could I see the policy that says you won’t do this?
DC: No.
JM: I’m a church member. Surely I should be allowed to see church policy.
DC: No.
JM: Why is that?
DC: You give me a good reason for it and I’ll . . . uh . . .
JM: Well, the reasons were noted in my letter, let’s see here. We requested the mailing list so that “we as members [. . .] may communicate in an open, civil, and transparent manner with fellow members regarding [recent matters in the Church’s life] . . . um . . . that comports . . .
DC: I will give you a complete written response.
JM: Ok, will that include the list?
DC: I will give you a complete written response.
JM: Ok, the law requires that you provide the list.
DC: I will give you a complete written response.
JM: So you’re willing to not provide what the law requires?
DC: I will give you a complete written response.
JM: Ok, when did this policy go into effect?
DC: I will give you a complete written response.
JM: Ok, you don’t have an answer for that?
DC: I will give you a complete written response.
JM: Ok, is there anything I can say that would get a response other that from you?
DC: No, I will give you a complete written response.
JM: May I take it from your not giving me the materials I’m requesting, that you’re ignoring Tennessee State Code section 48-66-101 and sequential?
DC: [over JM] No, you may not.
JM: I may not?
DC: No.
JM: May I take it from this that you’re complying with the Tennessee code? Do you claim to be complying with it?
DC: I will give you a complete response.
JM: You don’t claim to be complying with it?
DC: I will give you a complete response.
JM: Alright. Very good. I appreciate you. Seriously. Thank you. I hope you have a nice day.
DC: Thank you
JM: Thank you
I attest that the above transcript is true and accurate.
_______________________________
Joshua H. Manning
01.25.07
Loada, I wish to apologize for the previous remark I made about your user name. Someone has revealed to me that you are indeed a member who is seeking answers and I spoke to you in my post in a defensive manner. I am sorry and I want to address your question with my response.
loada said...
"There needs to be some kind of compromise in which the church mail room will mail it out to all the members baring vulgarity and selling things. that way our private information is "relatively" safe yet the message gets out to the people.
Thoughts???????"
I can guess that Josh Manning would consider having the church do the mail out instead of obtaining the mailing list if there were assurances that there would be no compromise or changes in the truth that was to be mailed. He is a reasonable guy, but I can also guess that the church would not be willing to accommodate such a request and more than they are willing to follow the law.
bin wonderin
According to the law, they had 5 days to study on this.
Their time is up.
overflowinggrace said...
Hello All,
I'm sure everyone will be delighted to hear from me. In regards to the list, I agree the BBC will most likely have to cough up. In studying some similar cases, I have seen where the corp can notify their membership in writing that this request has been made. At a cost of $2/person*30,000Members, thats around $60k. Also, some have mentioned the limitations on this statute and they are posted below.
c) A member may inspect and copy the records identified in subsection (b) only if:
(1) The member's demand is made in good faith and for a proper purpose;
(2) The member describes with reasonable particularity the purpose and the records the member desires to inspect; and
(3) The records are directly connected with the purpose for which the demand is made.
Reply:
I am not sure what your $2 point is in the first paragraph. As for the limitations, they were MET TO THE TEE in the certified letter, which is linked below.
Certified Letter
Question: Did David Coombs realize that his conversation with Josh Manning was being recorded? Just curious.
Charlie,
My point is that in the case I looke at, the requesting member was ordered by the court to pay that cost. $60k is a lot of cash.
OFG,
Could you direct me to that case please?
Piglet,
for the 4 millionth time... I have never said I do not want the truth.
I think that the tactics being used are inappropriate. I think it is insulting to the people of Bellevue to assume that they need you to tell them what to believe. This has been on the TV, the news, the internet, etc. If they want to know, they will seek out the information.
Is IDC going to sue the church to get the list if that is what it comes to? Is that Biblical?
overflowinggrace said...
Charlie,
My point is that in the case I looke at, the requesting member was ordered by the court to pay that cost. $60k is a lot of cash.
1:07 PM, January 30, 2007
The figure of $2 per person appears like an arbitrary amount seeing that the church normally spends much less using their bulk mail postage permit and the cost of a letter more than likely costs them less than 25 cents each. That and the fact that most of the 30,000 or so members are families and the family unit is ONE mail out, not a letter for each individual.
Even if the church doubled or tripled the above amounts, it would still not be as much as the pastors "note-taker" inserts in the bulletin each Sunday.
be patient said
Piglet: for the 4 millionth time... I have never said I do not want the truth.
I think that the tactics being used are inappropriate. I think it is insulting to the people of Bellevue to assume that they need you to tell them what to believe. This has been on the TV, the news, the internet, etc. If they want to know, they will seek out the information.
Is IDC going to sue the church to get the list if that is what it comes to? Is that Biblical?
Piglet says:
What tactics are inappropriate? ASKING for it? This is what Josh did.
Also,I don't think anyone here, including myself, have told Bellevue what to believe. We want the truth for everyone and then you can believe a lie if you choose.
I would think you should have been more insulted by the attempts of leadership to cover the truth than at our attempts to find it.
Furthermore, you harp about this being on the news and on this blog-- and then when we try to make this a church matter and settle this with a meeting of the members and with the facts as they are released to us by the leadership, you say you would rather Bellevue members rely on the media for their facts?
As for suing BBC: getting a court order to secure records due us by law is not suing,I don't believe (WTB?).
However,let me draw your attention to Matt. 18:17:
"And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."
If this matter cannot be handled internally because our leaders refuse, the Bible tells us to no longer treat them as a brother. So, in this case, you wouldn't be suing a brother.
If they want to tag 2$/name to the price for a list...so be it...in my mind it will just prove the belligerent, arrogant attitude in which they've done everything else.
(offline til later)
Bible in a year...
Thank you but I would not be interested in leading a class in the study of Rick Warren's literature. I totally agree with AOG. I am into God's Word and do not feel Rick Warren has been abused...I feel God is being abused. You need to stay in God's Word and forget about Rick Warren.
In addition, I think the dialogue in this blog right now does not need to be interrupted for things not relative to the cause at hand. There are a lot of people working very hard to stand for Truth and I thank God for them and for their efforts.
Ima
Piglet,
I think we are missing each other's points, and I am just getting frustrated. You are welcome to email me, or I would even be happy to meet you for lunch sometime. But we seem to get a little too heated when we argue on here and I am not going to give into it again.
sickofthelies - I obviously knew that DC was not ordained as of today and had not been to seminary. Those weren't the only questions that you asked in that paragraph. I said I didn't know answers to all of the questions. Let's try to be reasonable here.
DC said that Gaines, Williams, fish, etc. were all wrong. He just headed up an ivestigation that resulted in the admittance that all were wrong. What in the world do you expect this innocent man to do? Personally hand-cuff each of them? Why would someone say those things and point at him when all he has done is publically admit that these men involved were wrong and he had fully cooperated with the DCS. I feel bad if this Karen has been hurt, but nothing gives anyone the right to behave a certain way in our sanctuary and then question innocent people about how they react to it. What in the world do you want from him? Can anyone answer that one simple question?
I noticed a woman pointing at him. He did not tell me this. I saw his "smirk" - he did not tell me this. One of the women crying I do know has an abusive past from childhood - wouldn't know about any others. Don't comment on my character if you don't know me. Because I would have handled something differently shows my character? What? I'm not attacking Karen. I feel bad for her and the way that encounter played out. I wish there was something I could do to help her. For the record, DC has been one of the only ones willing to take the heat, speak to media, etc. I wish other staff members would step up to the plate. He did not stop her from saying anything. He stood there until she walked off. I did not hear her, I just saw from a few feet away and heard what the bald man beside me said about it. Unfortunately, DC probably didn't remember everything said by all hundreds of people who talked to him just in that 1 evening. Would you? I could be wrong. I'm not him. I didn't talk to him about that. I wasn't in on the conversation. I'm confused - is Karen Karen or is sickofthelies Karen or is it the same. I'm not trying to be funny - I'm just confused if the woman who talked with my Dad after the service is the same woman who told him that his son was e-mailing her or if that is 2 different people one named Karen and another with screen name Karen. Again, I'm only attempting to help those hurting so don't attack me. I realize that this attempt will probably end in regret and disappointment, but I wanted to try. Sorry, that I am not better at it, that I don't know more, and that I am not in much of a postion to really help. I do understand some of you guys' frustration.
Just my opinion - thanks - I think I will take that advice. I'm starting to see that.
Finance guy obviously has no clue so I will save my time.
I have to go back to work. Bye.
Steven Crawford,
What a meaty offering you have given us! What an excellent and informative post! Thank you so much.
For those of you who may have missed this very helpful message, please return to 12:19 AM and read it all. It is long but well worth it.
Thank you again, Mr. Crawford.
Dee
Sister Pam,
Your points on self deception are right on point. It takes courage to challenge authority. Thank you for your thoughts.
S Coombs,
You ask what else your father can do? I think this paragraph gives us direction.
"If he had considered the welfare of the church family he would have resigned. The molestation of a child is bad enough, but to continue on in a ministerial capacity with responsibility for sensitive areas of our church is without excuse."
Why is this last sentence limited to PW? How about those in leadership that allowed PW to continue on with responsibility in sensitive areas of the church? Do we deceive ourselves to think this is excusable?
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