"Moral Failures Thrive in Silence"
Wendi Thomas wrote this article in today's edition of the Commercial Appeal.
"Report on pastor's 'moral failure' may come by Jan. 20"
Pamela Perkins wrote this article in yesterday's edition.
FOX13 News coverage is here.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
488 comments:
1 – 200 of 488 Newer› Newest»I found this excerpt from the channel 13 website interesting.
The church has said it is investigating an alleged indiscretion by Williams with a staff member 17years ago.
So is the leadership now saying that this was an "indiscretion" between two staff members? Has the "moral failure" been downgraded?
And if the church is investigating an indiscretion between Williams and a staff member , why is that staff member not on paid leave?
I really wish that the leadership of Bellevue would just stand up and tell us the truth,but after all this could we believe any them.
"The church has said it is investigating an alleged indiscretion by Williams with a staff member 17years ago."
Tell me that was just a typo!
Oh my word. Unless the reporter made a HUGE error then we must be talking about 2 separate incidents? The story sure makes it seem like 2 separate incidents. One with a staff member and whatever DCS is investigating. Buckle up folks.
Don't these reporters record interviews to verify the acuracy of statements? If that statement is accurate I can't wait to hear the spin.
It is almost certainly an error by the reporter. Please, let's not begin this thread with speculation. How about giving Bellevue the benefit of the doubt this one time. If the report is true, we will know soon enough without spreading accusations that have not be corroberated and if it is true, then we will all partake in the feeding frenzy!
Please.
I'm not spreading a rumor. I'm just quoting the local television station.
trucker said...
I'm not spreading a rumor. I'm just quoting the local television station.
2:02 AM, January 14, 2007
Response:
I understand. I just read the report myself. I was referring more to ju who said "Oh my word. Unless the reporter made a HUGE error then we must be talking about 2 separate incidents? The story sure makes it seem like 2 separate incidents. One with a staff member and whatever DCS is investigating. Buckle up folks.
1:51 AM, January 14, 2007 "
But your next statement applies as well:
trucker said...
Don't these reporters record interviews to verify the acuracy of statements? If that statement is accurate I can't wait to hear the spin.
1:59 AM, January 14, 2007
Well we'll know soon enough I just emailed them about the accuracy of that report.
I'm sure that Steve Gaines will clear it all up for us just like the CC answered all our questions with honesty and accuracy. With that I'm off to bed so I can attend SS and skip the service.
trucker said...
I'm sure that Steve Gaines will clear it all up for us just like the CC answered all our questions with honesty and accuracy. With that I'm off to bed so I can attend SS and skip the service.
Response: Exactly what I'm talking about!
It must be late. I actually agree with "heardenuf's" 2:06 a.m. post! Let's wait for clarification from FOX13.
G'night, all.
"New BBC Open Forum said...
It must be late. I actually agree with "heardenuf's" 2:06 a.m. post! Let's wait for clarification from FOX13.
G'night, all. "
Response: Maybe my inate sense for sensibility is growing on you! ;) (This of course is a very,very tongue in cheek moment...a joke. It is late!)
heardenuf wrote:
"Maybe my inate sense for sensibility is growing on you! ;)"
Well, they say even a stopped clock is right twice a day. :-)
"(This of course is a very,very tongue in cheek moment...a joke. It is late!)"
So was that. And it is... late.
AllofGrace said,
"In case anyone hasn't heard..Joel Osteen is now considered the number one most influential Christian in the world. Sheesh...what does that tell you?"
That just sent chills down my spine! That tells me how much we have been heavily influenced by all-inclusive, seeker friendly, feel good, ear tickling, pat-on-the-back sermons and theology and those things in Revelation which we dont fully understand are coming true before our eyes. It should be a LOUD wakeup call to all Christians!!!
New BBC Open Forum
The link to your site was removed from savingbellevue. Any idea why?
I learned more in the last day about you and your site than I have the last month.
Your removal of my post and lack of response to cleanup speak volumes.
Enjoy the mud!
After reading Wendi's column I literally cried. In fact I'm still crying. My makeup is ruined! Do our leaders not care about child sexual abuse victims? Can you imagine being asked to describe in details someone molesting you to a known pedophile?
What kind of message are we sending abuse victims right now? To them this is more than a moral failure or moral indiscretion. The number of victims in our midst would probably shock us all.
This is so sick and sordid and our staff knows it. They only reason they aren't fully cooperating is to save themselves. People, that is wrong. They aren't the issue. Justice is the issue. Chris isn't the only one who needs justice. What about Beth? What about those other victims? Our church and our community need justice. Steve Gaines, Jamie Fish, and anyone else who knows the truth must cooperate with the D.A. Men of character would contact them on their own and empty their hearts and souls.
I love Beth for her bravery. Imagine what it was like giving that interview. Chris W. I love you. This must be incredibly difficult. I love everyone who has been the victim of this sin. Remember to turn to the Lord. Cast all your cares and hurts to him in prayer. He will give you the strength to deal with your pain.
If this does not wake-up Bellevue nothing will. We are being tested. So far it looks like we will fail.
Kingdomresistor@yahoo.com
Sorry the link didn't work for you...it did work for me. Might try it again? AN I have added a second one.
Let me know if you can't get it?
http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/BookReviews/book_reviews.asp?ID=300
You can always email me. I can send it opened up for you that way.
Ima
http://www.erwm.com/Experiencing_God_by_Anton_Bosch.htm
Thanks, I searched the site from that the home page and found Part III of a three part article. It was interesting.
I am so sorry for how all of you must be feeling this morning. This whole thing just gets uglier and uglier doesn't it. Regardless if the Fox 13 article is misstated, it is still so sad and sordid. I have always had such a powerful respect and love for Dr Rogers and as I have stated, I have some very good friends two of whom are in leadership there. I went to MABTS and am just sick (though I know not to the degree all of you are).
I am leaving early in the morning (it is Sunday night here now) for a retreat with other leaders of our organization from SE Asia. At every prayer session, I will ask we spend time praying for you dear brothers and sisters.
Oh, and by the way, ima I mentioned this earlier to AOG, our organization is a very large international Christian organization, so it is not always as I would like, but I found out a couple of days ago that two staff members from Rob Bell's church, Mars Hill Bible Church in Grand Rapids, MI (not Mark Driscoll's Mars Hill) are leading our retreat. So, it should be interesting. I will take what I can from them and like I told him, I will take my John Piper books, a biography of Churchill I have been wanting to read and of course, I will get a lot of BIBLE reading and studying done to redeem the rest of the time.
ima,
Try this. The second one got cut off.
See this.
Thanks NBBCOF. That worked perfectly. I am signing off now. I genuinely feel like an interloper at a family funeral this morning here (not because of anyone's attitude, but because of how I know you all must hurting with raw pain this morning.
Do know this, I covenant with you, dear brothers and sisters to have a group interceding in the mountains fo Thailand for you this week. We will be totally out of touch with all technology, but not from the Throne Room of the Almighty!!
Kingdomrevolution...
Sounds like some good reading time to me! Enjoy...
And take care.
trucker said,
I'm not spreading a rumor. I'm just quoting the local television station.
>
LOL. Thats funny. Think again what you said, trucker.
On Dec. 21, 2006, the Fox 13 webiste posted this:
Memphis, Tenn. (WHBQ) -- Bellevue Baptist Church is being investigated by The Department of Children's Services. The agency won't say why it's investigating. But sources tell FOX13 it involves an incident between a child and minister.
Bellevue Baptist is already investigating one of it's minister's, Paul Williams, for what it calls "past moral failure" 17 years ago. On Thursday, the Department of Children's Services told FOX13 it has an interest in the church as well.
Reply: At some point along the way, I read a tag that said that "this appears to be a separate investigation than the investigation previously reported." (Now, I can't find that tag.) It lead me - at that time - to think that there were two incidences being investigated.
On Dec. 19, BlessMe had posted this: (but I had overlooked it)
BlessMeWithTheTruth said...
Paul Williams is currently under investigation by the Children`s services.
Is there only one ongoing DCS investigation at Bellevue?
Dear Beth,
I am so sad our church put you in a position to relive your horrible experience. God will turn your tragedy into triumph!
Brother Jamie Fish,
I love you in Christ. I beg you to speak up and tell the truth. I know you are better than this! They will throw you to the wolves if it suits them. Tell the prosectors the truth. It will salve your conscience because it is the right thing to do. This is a turning point for you. If you don't do the right thing now you will never forget it and it will assuredly haunt you the rest of your days on this earth. For the sake of our children, for the sake of those like "Beth," for the sake of our church, tell the whole truth. I know it will be hard. I also know you have to do it.
Fear the Lord, not men!
In his 6:25 am post, bugsii said:
" New BBC Open Forum:
The link to your site was removed from savingbellevue. Any idea why?
....."
NASS, he is gloating too soon. The link is still there, it's just been rearranged. It's now in the "Featured Items Enter Here" link, in blue,near the bottom.
Sorry, bugsii, to burst your bubble. You seemed to get such pleasure from your own "Internal Investigation".
Ooops! Sorry! That copy and paste didn't work right.
Bugsii's quote was:
"New BBC Open Forum
The link to your site was removed from savingbellevue. Any idea why?"
Actually Ema,
That's not a link to this blog. He has completely removed the link to this blog. Doesn't bother me really might keep some people from coming in here just to antagonize the regular posters.
I stand corrected.
When I saw the "blogspot" reference, I thought it was the same one...should have accessed it before I opened my mouth and stuck my foot in.
Bugsii, I apologize...go ahead and celebrate!
Thanks. You are right. I'll delete the other post.
I have a question I must ask although it's probably been asked and hashed out before, but I haven't read every post so please forgive me. So far all that I have seen or heard about PW is very vague and gives no details (when I say seen or heard I mean in the media or from the pulpit), so how do people know what this moral failure or indescretion was exactly? If people know the details of what it was and it wasn't described by the media or in the pulpit (and I admit I could have missed something that has been said there) then doesn't that mean that someone other than SG and the person that was directly involved in the indescretion knew about this before it became public and there were more than just SG that didn't report this to the law?
Again please forgive me if this has been discussed already, and the terms I use in my post I'm getting from other posts and such, not my choice of words per say.
Thank you.
You have my heartfelt sympathies today regarding these two back-to-back CA articles. One of the things I remember from my Christian past was hearing someone say, "we are the hands and feet of God, and He reveals His purpose through our actions."
The greatest obtacle to recovering from childhood abuse is the profound sense of shame, not always just prompted by the doubt of having somehow caused it, but also the feeling of being subcategorized as a "victim," and all the awkwardness and animosity that is the aftermath to revealing it.
It seems the great mandate here has been in preserving Bellevue, the beloved institution, to no doubt honor the heritage of Dr. Rogers and the pioneers of the church. There's a large stake here because Bellevue is the mothership, children.
What would happen if you could all just let go--not of your faith, but Bellevue, as you have loved and kept in the past--and direct your prayers and actions to helping people like Beth, and, no doubt the many Beths that have been victimized two times around.
In in the absence of any action during the past 17 years, and this revelation by Beth, don't assume that this is the thick of it. Victims don't generally speak up much (see above) and undiscovered pedophiles don't generally just quit.
I respect and appreciate y'alls service for Jesus, regard of scripture, your love and support of one another, etc, yet this, once distilled into its key points, is truly a common sense issue to anyone of conscience, Christian or not; and I so fear that you may muddle the debate with endless conjectures and invite the bottomless well of innuendo and parcing hyperboles (parden the expression) until the second coming.
You might find great strength and unity by seeking a higher purpose, looking after one another, and especially those most harmed by this tradgedy.
love and solidarity,
David
2006huldah
Thanks for that encouragement you left for me at 12:42 this morning.
I really needed it. :)
I try to be so nice, but I still clear the room.
I am sure that this post will create some controversy but I kept waiting for someone to state the obvious and unless I missed it, no one has really raised this issue. Sorry for the length… it has been building up…
It is my understanding that PW was on the staff at Bellevue when the incident occurred 17 years ago. It is also my understanding that PW was counseled by someone at Bellevue at that time (we do not know who) – and was counseled by some other minister outside Bellevue.
Here is the question - how in the world can anyone believe that Rogers did not know about the situation? Come-on… he was the pastor of the church and from what I understand had a pretty tight control on what occurred at Bellevue – maybe not in final years but 17 years ago it was “his church” and I just cannot believe that he did not know. That is the opinion of almost every person that that I talk to – both Bellevue members and those who are not members.
I make this point not to bash Dr. Rogers – we all know what an amazing man of God he was – but there has to be more to this story than anyone on this blog knows.
A couple more issues:
1) The man that should be vilified in this situation is PW. He is the one that should be on the bashing block. I don’t know him or his personality but what was he thinking for the past 17 years? That this would never come out? And, more importantly why would he allow himself to be in the situation to talk to ANYONE about abuse? Why would he not remove himself from service? Perhaps he could work as a layman but what a shame that he thought he could remain in fulltime ministry at Bellevue. He should be ashamed, prosecuted, jailed and labeled as a sex offender for the rest of his life.
2) Another question - who else knew? The majority of the people on this blog are so focused on bringing down Steve Gaines that they cannot see anything else? I recommend that the investigation also look into who else knew 17 years ago and since then? Who else did PW talk to at the time? Are they still on staff? Did they tell Rogers? Did they tell Sorrell? Here is a thought - could the reason that Steve Gaines did not come forward in June was that he knows that Rogers knew about the incident and he was protecting Rogers? There has to be something about the June incident that we do not know.
3) There has to be something about all of this that we just do not know. Steve Gaines is a smart man – I just cannot believe that we know all of the details of why he made the decision to not fire PW in June. There has to be more to the story than what has been reported on the blogs. I for one trust Steve’s judgment and I trust the “inner circle” at Bellevue to make the right decisions. These guys – I will not name names – are not people that have been sheltered in life. These are guys that run or have run large companies and organizations. They did not get into these positions of leadership without having extensive experience in making critical decisions. What makes people on this blog (and Mike Spradlin for that matter) think that they would make better decisions – when they do not have all of the details.
4) On the blog there have been calls for legal actions for the delay in calling the authorities. Here is a new twist – I saw the accusations posted on this blog at least 48 hours prior to the announcement in the service. How many of you called the authorities with the information. If we are going to start arresting people for not coming forward – I believe the list will be much longer than one person – in fact, wouldn’t they have to charge everyone that knew 17 years ago? Wouldn’t they have to charge PW’s wife? Wouldn’t they have to charge everyone that posted anything on this blog about the incident? And don’t think that you are anonymous because you use a blogger name. Google has the ability to track each of your comments to the specific IP address of your PC – so there might be some interesting concerns for the ones of you that posted the rumors and did not in turn call the authorities.
5) I have heard several people say that perhaps all of this is to bring revival to our church. I have also heard people say – both inside and outside Bellevue – that perhaps this God’s way of knocking us off our pedestal. There are some pious people at Bellevue. Many of those that come here - quoting scripture and bashing leaders and pointing fingers are the same ones that stand-up in Sunday School classes and say there are no levels of sin, that one is as bad as the other. If you truly believe that, then aren’t we all just sinners saved by Grace? You might consider reading a little book “The Ragmuffin Gospel” by the former Franciscan priest Brendon Manning. It will remind you that NONE of us deserve Christ’s love but ALL of us have access to the Grace of God. In the past when you were in a crowd and someone asked you what church you went to, didn’t you get a little pious when you said “Bellevue?” If the person was from Christian circles, the conversation usually continued with some knowledge that they had about our amazing church and its impact on Memphis. Now, whenever someone asks, don’t you sorta wince when you say “Bellevue?” Don’t you wait for that follow-up, wondering if they are going to ask you about the situation? Not feeling quite as pious lately are you? And I think that is a good thing. I hope that Bellevue can become known as the church where people are just people and all of us are just sinners saved by Grace. And that anyone, now matter what the situation, are welcome to come find Jesus in our midst. I believe that, based on the sermons and the writings and the changes that have occurred, Steve Gaines is the best person to lead us toward that goal.
6) As I think back to the first days of the blog and the website, I remember that the first set of issues were really about the concern over change at Bellevue. People did not like the new music – they did not like the new service order – they did not like this or that. I believe strongly that fear of change is the real reason that most of this has happened at Bellevue. There has been much said about the statements made by leaders that “if you don’t like it, leave” and I believe that makes a lot of sense. About 18 months ago my family and I became unhappy with the “feel” of Bellevue. The services were stoic and the people were mostly pious. We visited several other churches and found several that we liked. Some where the music was amazing – much more contemporary that we have today at Bellevue – music that truly allowed me to worship my Jesus as I sang. We struggled with the decision to leave. Then Bro. Steve and Jamie came to Bellevue. We decided to give Bellevue another chance and we are very happy now (although we would still like the Sunday morning to be much more like the worship services that occur in our youth ministry on Wednesday nights). I tell this story to say this. When we became dissatisfied, instead of whining and complaining about what Bellevue had become, we decided that it might be time to leave. I think it is time for many of you to make that same decision. If you don’t like the leadership then do one of two things – become a leader and push for change from the inside. Or go somewhere else and find leaders that you do like. But please, for God’s sake (and the sake of the Kingdom), stop sitting around and belly-aching on the blogs. If you don’t like the direction of the new Bellevue then find somewhere else to worship. There are many places around town that still have traditional services. Find somewhere that you can be happy. We, the majority at Bellevue, are happy with the new ways and the new pastor that God has installed as our leader.
7) One final thought. It has been amusing to watch people post comments about services where there have been standing ovations. I think there is some confusion about why we stand and clap. We do that to let Bro. Steve know that we are behind him and his leadership. The news media, the infamous website and this blog continue week after week to tear him down. We are just letting him know that the people that hang out here and on the website are the MINORITY at our church. As I stand and clap, it was very comforting to know that, in a sanctuary of 6200 people, about 99% were standing and showing their support for our pastor. My family will just keep loving-on him and his sweet family. We will just keep standing and clapping and sending emails – and really anything we can do – to let him know that we love him, we trust him and we believe that God called him to be our pastor. We are happy that he has made the decision to stay, in spite of what the minority might think.
OK – that should create some serious cutting and pasting – and at least several days of discussion on this site. I have only posted to the site one other time and that was months ago. I just thought it was time to stir the pot and perhaps remind some people that most of us out here that visit this site, do so to try to understand the mind of those who post here – and it can be very confusing and would be amusing if it was not so serious. I thought it was time to share my thoughts with you also..
part time troll
No cutting or pasting necessary.
If you don't mind a CEO for a pastor, one who's in it for the money and power , who's surrounded (by your own admission) people who are like minded, who is above accountability, gets rid of anyone who disagrees, has all his pals serve on all the committees, makes all the decisions, keeps secrets from the members, has a deacon body with no real voice, breaks the law when it suits him, supports other liberal churches, and looks glossy on the outside but has the temper of Yosemite Sam, then you're just the kind of church member Steve Gaines wants and I'm sure you'll be happy at the new Bellevue.
And what of the Beth's, troll? Should these troublemakers just leave too? I just don't get how anyone writing such a screed might be considered "spiritual." Just go away, huh? Ugh, I dispise self-serving piety.
I cannot believe he wrote all that and still missed the major points. Who cares about the music?
What about the safety of children at BBC?
I'm taking a nap.
Ema said...
Ooops! Sorry! That copy and paste didn't work right.
Bugsii's quote was:
"New BBC Open Forum
The link to your site was removed from savingbellevue. Any idea why?"
1:32 PM, January 14, 2007
Actually, the link is taken down and I haven't a clue why. You might email the blogmaster of that site.
NBBCOF
trollcates has actually touched on something very important in his post.
What is the church and What is the purpose for the church. Since Constantine institutionalized the church, this has been a problem. It is hard for us to understand how we have incorporated so much of the Constantinian Church structure into our present day churches. It is a shame.
The church is not a building. It is the Body of Christ. Believers. That is why the situation at Bellevue affects everyone in the Body of Christ. The Epistles were passed around to churches and read aloud to the Body. (Can you imagine that happening today? Can you imagine hearing 1 Corinthians read aloud at church next week?)
The purpose of the church is to worship God as the Body of Christ, prophesy, disciple and edify the believers.
There is only one place in scripture that even mentions unbelievers coming into the church that I can find in the NT and that is in 1 Corinthians 14:
22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus[c] the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.
Notice is says, ALL prophesy in verse 24. There is your priesthood. Does that happen today? No. Why? One reason is because of structure. We limit gifts in worship to mostly paid staff. (I am NOT speaking of tongues!) and secondly, there are many unbelievers sitting in the pews. (gasp)
Christ said, Go out and make disciples of peoples. (nations). He did not say, build churches and invite people to come and be saved. Some will argue there is no distinction. But there really is. We cannot worship in Spirit and Truth with unbelievers. If unbelievers happen to come, what they hear prophesied from ALL, should pierce their hearts so they will be saved. What is prophesy? Scripture. Sola Scriptura.
We have done the opposite. We build big churches, invite unbelievers in (almost everyone says they believe in God) but we want them to stay so we make sure it is entertaining and there is nothing that will offend them. They join because they like the horizontal 'relationships'. They want to belong to something. The whole point of being the Body of Christ is missed.
Piglet,
You are welcome.
Jesus loves you.
Dee
ezekiel said...
Mike Spradlin confirmed my direction today as well. He preached from Col 1:1-12 this morning. The emphasis was on getting into the WORD to discover his will.
How ironic....I visited faith baptist and the pastor there preached on focusing on God and his word. He preached from II Chronicles 34:16-33. Very good sermon definitely :).
For what it is worth, could someone tell me who is the greatest fault finder, SG or this blog?
Jude 16:
These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.
I know tis is talking about leaders, but isn't a diffinition of a leader one who leads? Many of you people seem to have all the answers and know the best direction to go. How come you aren't ministering somewhere.
Therefore, that makes the people on this blog leaders, however God has never entrusted them with a ministry. So who is the greatest fault finder?
Many seem to be so theologicaly correct like Lindon and barister, how come these men dont have some sort of ministry.
Just my observation, but arent many of the bloggers women? Perhaps this is why the apostle Paul told us to be quiet and talk to our husbands about this.
Holding to 1 Tim 3:11, many of the women on this blog are disqualifying their husbands from being leaders in the church.
I have seen every minister torn down on this blog:
1. Rick Warren
2. Mac Brunson
3. Beth Moore
4. Joel Olsteen
5. Jim Cymbala
6. Methodists
7. Episcapalian
9. Steve Gaines
Whose next, Billy Graham, I bet some on here would find fault with him also.
terry smith,
"Whose next, Billy Graham, I bet some on here would find fault with him also."
Alright, I'll start.
Billy Graham no longer believes the Bible is inerrant and that Jesus is the only way to God.
(And I'm not even anti-Gaines.)
Does anyone know if Dr. Spradlin is preaching on Sunday nights at GBC?
terry smith
Better be careful there big fella....new bbc open forum may delete your post. He is a little sensitive to criticism of his site. I posted something similar to your post yesterday and it was removed. I can't get the him/her to explain.
You can use questionable language, argue and do anything counter to the purpose of the site as stated by the blogmaster but if you critize the site or the comments you get deleleted.
I have suggested that he shut down comments or moderate them and he didn't like it. I guess he's kind of a one man show. Doesn't like people holding him accountable or relinguishing control. I'm praying he'll grow though.
Graceupongrace,
Thank you for proving my point. What I read in that link there is nothing untrue. Only God determines who is saved and who is not, is that not true?
If Billy Graham doesnt believe Jesus is the only way, why does he just preach Jesus, and study His word so much?
The minority just became even more minor.
Yeah, "accountability," give us a sermon on that one, bugs.
Terry smith said...
The minority just became even more minor.
4:14 PM, January 14, 2007
If we are an insignificant small minotity, then why waste your valueable time on us?
Sister Pam,
What a wonderful blessing you are to your brothers and sisters here and everywhere you pass. Your words are so full of the Holy Spirit that my soul is quieted when I read your beautiful letters to us all. To God be the glory!
Your letter that so perfectly reflected the loving, tender way that our Lord sees us and cares for us moved me to tears. I know the emotional side of us is supposed to be the shallowest, but it just reminded me of the way our Sweet Saviour has helped us in the past. We know it is Him because He never draws attention to Himself. Many people in this world who do not know Him give all the credit to "circumstance". Those of us who know Him and love Him KNOW that it is He who is providing a way for His own.
Thank you for being a wonderful example for all of us who pass this way.
Loved by Him, too,
Dee
This morning I paid Faith Baptist Church a visit. Let me tell you, if you want to hear a good, bible based sermon in a small church, the pastor there is AWSOME.
My family and I visited Faith Baptist recently, yes, the Pastor preached the word, and the people were nice, but I was sad to be away from my church family. :-(
My family is visiting GBC tonight but I'm at home with back issues so I'm listening to WCRV.
Pam, You are such an enourager! I would love to meet you. If we do not meet here, we will on the other side and you will be able to see me.
Many seem to be so theologicaly correct like Lindon and barister, how come these men dont have some sort of ministry.
I will never apologize for caring about being true to the Word. Shouldn't we all care about theological purity?
I do not have all the answers and readily admit that. But, I've studied enough to recognize some errors when I see them. Today's error can easily become tomorrow's heresy. We should all be vigilant.
AOG,
I listened to that same Mahan sermon with the Billy Graham recording. It was shocking to hear him say some men come to Jesus without even knowing who He is.
AOG,
Who knows why you were left off the list? You post much more oftent than I do.
Terry wrote: "I know tis is talking about leaders, but isn't a diffinition of a leader one who leads? Many of you people seem to have all the answers and know the best direction to go. How come you aren't ministering somewhere. "
That is a pretty big assumption. Ministering does not always mean a stint in the seminary and pastoring a church.
"Therefore, that makes the people on this blog leaders, however God has never entrusted them with a ministry. "
Scary assumption. For you, not for the others.
"Many seem to be so theologicaly correct like Lindon and barister, how come these men dont have some sort of ministry."
Theology: Theos=God Logos=Word. The Word of God. Everyone on this blog has access to the Word of God. I pray that my doctrine is correct because I will answer for it at the Throne.
"Just my observation, but arent many of the bloggers women? Perhaps this is why the apostle Paul told us to be quiet and talk to our husbands about this. "
YOu may (or may not) be interested in some very good teaching on this issue. It is very balanced because this issue is WAY out of balance on both sides, I regret to say. Here is a link if you are so inclined: http://www.grantedministries.org/articlesTitle.php
Scroll down to the article 'Silent Sisters' By Jon Zens.
"Holding to 1 Tim 3:11, many of the women on this blog are disqualifying their husbands from being leaders in the church."
You seem to enjoy legalism on some issues> How about 1 Corinthians 5? Does that scripture have any relevance to you about a pedophile minister? Or Titus or Timothy?
"I have seen every minister torn down on this blog:"
There are serious issues with many you mention. We are to be Bereans with any teaching of the Word. And, I disagree about tearing them down. We can point out false teaching and sin. That is biblical.
"Whose next, Billy Graham, I bet some on here would find fault with him also. "
I cannot tell you how many crusades I have been involved with in my life. I am ashamed to say, that Graham has disappointed me to no end in the last 10 years. I did not see it for a long while until he practically endorsed Hillary Clinton for President at the NY Crusade. Oh, and he said, Bill would make a great evangelist.
Here is a link to a story about on Graham from Newsweek online that ought to curl your hair: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14204483/
But that is only one source. There are many other interviews where my mouth literally fell open at some of the things he has said.
BGEA made some very bad 'decisions' back in the late 50's that I believe are coming home to roost today. It had to do with alter calls at the crusades. They knew that most were not real based on their follow up with churches. But the alter call had become the culminating experience of the crusade. Everyone talked about the 'numbers'. Ian McMurray has a very well researched and documented narrative about this in his book, "Evangelism Divided'.
West wrote "Who knows why you were left off the list? You post much more oftent than I do."
It is because aog is nicer and wiser than I. I'm too firey and intense. If this were the Middle Ages, I would have been one of the first Anabaptists to be burned at the stake. :o)
Pray for me to soften up. A good friend of mine suggested the use of more emoticons but I cannot get the fancy ones to work on comments. :o(
allofgrace,
"Hey!!...I'M theologically correct :)"
Me four!!
Saying that people on this blog are theologically accurate isn't exactly a big slam...
AOG,
I occasionally write for a Christian magazine. Does that count as ministry?
Another point, I believe in the Priesthood of the Believer. We have a collective responsibility to ensure our churches remain true to Scripture.
Lindon,
I think I am nice. I'm unwilling to overlook serious error, but I don't spend time arguing and name calling. From the start I've been more concerned with principles than personalities.
Lindon,
I don't dispute that God uses all kinds and we need Peter's in this world, but if Peter, using his sword, had saved Jesus from the mob and ultimately from dying on the cross where would we all be today? :-)
Hey Grace,
I agree. That is a slam I can wear as a badge of honor.
Howdy to you as well allofgrace...
To all:
Any news on why the NEW BBC Open Forum link was taken off the webpage this morning?
Any comments on this morning's or tonight's sermons? I noticed there weren't as many (actually, any) accusations of them being "self-serving" today. (Oh, and the sermon notes on the website were indeed a typo like I figured; it came from Romans 4, not Romans 16.)
westtn,
Which Christian magazine?
AOG,
We are all in the ministry. Some are professionals, but all believers represent Him 24/7. Absolutely, your forum is a ministry.
aog wrote: "I can get pretty fired up sometimes...I've tried to learn to just give reasoned responses..although I don't always succeed..*sigh*"
Oh Dear! I did not mean to imply that you are not 'fired up' about doctrine! Quite the contrary. You just are wiser about your sharing. More 'Grace'. I believe your SB Blog proves that.
There is a saying that is not theologically correct but I think you will get the meaning: What you win them 'with' is what you win them 'to'.
Hi Grace,
I will email you about it.
I just got an idea on the link from savingbellevue myself... last night the savingbellevue website was completely blank with no links to anything, which was rather odd. He may have accidentally deleted everything and then forgot to add the link back.
westtn,
thanks... I'll look out for the e-mail.
I'm listening to the BBC service on WCRV and it ended awful early and now they have singing on there. Usually it goes until 7:15 or so doesn't it? Do you think there is an address to the congregation being made?
notonaside,
Yeah, I thought that was rather strange. But I was watching it online and Dr. Gaines clearly dismissed the audience after "Sweet, Sweet Spirit," so I don't think so.
No wrote: "I don't dispute that God uses all kinds and we need Peter's in this world, but if Peter, using his sword, had saved Jesus from the mob and ultimately from dying on the cross where would we all be today? :-) "
Huh? I don't understand what you are getting at here. Jesus was going to the cross, God foreordained it.
The gospel offends. What amazes me is that it usually offends 'Christians' the most! It had to offend me to finally pierce my stone cold heart.
AOG,
I went to a Southern Baptist university at a time when it was still in the hands of liberals. I am still unlearning poor theology.
Lindon,
I didn't mean anything offensive to you. I was just saying that Peter had a fiery spirit too, which is cool, but sometimes we have to sit back and let things take their course because it's God's ultimate will. I hope I didn't offend you. I aplogize if I did.
West wrote: "I think I am nice. I'm unwilling to overlook serious error, but I don't spend time arguing and name calling. From the start I've been more concerned with principles than personalities."
I agree. Truth is always loving even if someone does not think it is nice. A lot of heresy has crept into the church even to the point that correct doctrine is unrecognizable by people like me who grew up in church! The Lord had to hit me on the head pretty hard for me to see it. The "Chastisement" was grueling but well worth it.
I started out in a christian school for K-2nd Grade, but then my mom got into a fight with a minister and put me into public school. It wasn't until I got to the point where I was pretty much a recluse before I got back into church (2002).
To be honest I'm still trying to get the doctrine down lol.
That is true. I cannot tell you how many times I've questioned my own faith and whether or not I was actually saved. But I'm pretty sure most christians have had that experience at one point or another.
Terry Smith
Nathan was a "faultfinder" sent by God to confront David.
Thankfully, David repented. He didn't throw Nathan out and tell people he was sent of the devil and not to listen to him.
Steve Gaines needs to repent before God and stop talking about adversaries and persecution...all the way to the bank, I might add.
Persecution for the cause of Christ and His righteousness is a reward to the believer. But screaming persection when you've sinned, broke the law, treated people of God as though they are disposable, refused to answer to those who PAY YOUR SALARY - well, that's not persecution, that's "just desserts".
You know, it was brought up about having a 'ministry'. Here is a question I thought about several weeks ago that is kind of interesting:
Who was the pastor/minister/elder of these churches
Phillipi
Corinth
Ephesus
Collosae
Rome
Galatia
Thessalonica
No wrote: "I didn't mean anything offensive to you. I was just saying that Peter had a fiery spirit too, which is cool, but sometimes we have to sit back and let things take their course because it's God's ultimate will. I hope I didn't offend you. I aplogize if I did. "
Sorry, I did not 'get it'. I am a blonde, you know. I was thinking 'theology' about your comment...not Peter's personality. But you make a good point. It did get him into some bad positions.
Thanks so much for your kind apology!! I was not offended at all. (Just a note: My dad used to have us kids debate an issue for fun. We were allowed only facts, no emotional arguements. We have it in our blood. Debating is not something very popular in these politically correct times!)
busii
I'm not sure why your post was deleted. I had no problem, myself, with it being there.
But think a minute about how it feels not to be heard, to be deleted because your message offends someone.
MARK WAS DELETED.
He tried to bring important issues before the church and was silenced. Now he is being roasted over the fire for trying to do what I wish more deacons would do, and that is HOLD THE PASTOR ACCOUNTABLE to God's word.
That, my friends, is persecution. There was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in it for him.
Now, the pastor.....there's a lot in it for him.
Now, say you heard something from staff about the pastor (can't imagine what it would have to be since nobody care's what he does - maybe a terrorist plot?) and you felt responsible to not keep it quiet. How would you suggest someone deal with that in the light of this past year? There is no avenue for that.
If these current administative tactics receive the blessing of the membership,I doubt you would EVER hear of any wrongdoing that takes place. Sobering thought.
Or is that what you want? Blissful ignorance and a seemingly perfect world - like the Walgreens commercials?
Lindon,
Oh I love to debate, just ask my spouse. I can't get much debate around my house. I definately prefer facts versus emotion.
Terry Smith, Bugsii, graceupongrace
You're all for Dr. Gaines so if you trash Billy Graham, what ON EARTH does that have to do with any problems we are having with Dr. Gaines??????
Is this just a distraction?
What is it that offends? I always thought the offense of the gospel was its singularity--that Jesus Christ is the only path to salvation. Everything else is the pits.
Kingdom's right, a Thai raised in Buddhism won't be able to wrap his or her brain around the concept of original sin, and the tapestry of doctrines that hang from it. Some my find it strange, as it is in contravention to their own cultural milieu.
It is, ultimately, a doctrine that many connot swallow.
Faith is just that, believing in what you cannot see or chart. Whom amonst us would second-guess or make a judgement regarding the spiritual path of another?
Ok, that was rhetorical; don't answer.
piglet,
"You're all for Dr. Gaines so if you trash Billy Graham, what ON EARTH does that have to do with any problems we are having with Dr. Gaines??????"
A pro-Gaines person was attacking people on this forum for pointing out false theology of people like Joel Osteen and asked, what next, criticizing Billy Graham?
By replying to his post, giving evidence of bad theology by Billy Graham, I was actually defending ya'll. I am not sure my post warrants an attack of being a "distraction." Please think before you post.
Dr. Spradlin mentioned today that many think Epaphras was probably the pastor of Colosse. See Col 1:7
trollcates,
Though piglet will probably view this as a "distraction," your posts have me interested. Why exactly have you left Bellevue for the Buddhist faith? What is your problem with Christianity?
terry smith
Terry wrote: "I know tis is talking about leaders, but isn't a diffinition of a leader one who leads? Many of you people seem to have all the answers and know the best direction to go. How come you aren't ministering somewhere."
Terry, how do you know you are NOT talking to ministers, SS teachers, seminary students, professors, etc.
Fact is, you don't.
And how do you know God did not call us to this task so He could purify this church and it's leaders?
You'll deny that could be true because that would put you in opposition with God's work.
graceupongrace
In his response to you Terry said:
"The minority just got more minor."
I thought he meant the "minority" on this blog as though this information about Billy Graham somehow reflected on those of us with concerns about Dr. Gaines.
I apologize to both of you if that was not your intent.
I'm
piglet,
No worries. :)
I was an active Southern Baptist growing up and into my 20s, but never a member of Bellevue--although I have many close ties there.
Here's a couple of examples of a different milieu--one my teachers said, there are 84,000 paths to realization; one should never look upon the beneficial path of another as inferior ot that your own is superior.
Having a conversation about God with a neighbor (she is Catholic), she asked, "well, do you ever wonder why you are here?" To which I replied, "because my father met my mother." It's no more profound than that. Why is that a tradgedy?
I don't know what will greet (whatever) me on the other side of the veil, and I am not taking anybody's word for it, the very least of all, a preacher. And, I'm content with that.
Sure, I could punch my ticket just in case there is a hell, but spiritual conversion as prompted by fear of damnation is another of the aspect I don't miss.
Isn't it interesting to think of who the pastors/elders of those churches were?
I was thinking about this because the Apostles traveled. They may have stayed for a year or two building the church but they were not always there. (Especially since they were writing them letters:)
Or like Titus who was told to appoint elders in every city he was commanded. Was he an itinerant pastor/elder in Crete?
But isn't it interesting that the letters were not written to a pastor but usually to the Body? And, that the pastor/elders were not mentioned as such. There are names mentioned in the letters but not titles as such. I know there are exceptions (such as Timothy, Titus, Apollos, etc.) but you get my meaning?
Look at 3 John, you have to wonder the positions of Gaius and Diotrephes. Some scholar somewhere probably has the answers. I need to do some research.
Anyway, I think maybe looking at this question should make us wonder if we have elevated the position of pastor to a place it was never intended? To more of a celebrity status than necessary.
Just random thoughts. Off topic! Sorry.
Hmmm....something in this sounds eerily familiar. It's deja-vu all over again!
First Baptist members say pew to new pastor's changes
This regards First Baptist Daytona Bobby Welch is the Pastor Emeritus. His story of the bull-frog at the SBC was hysterical - and even more funny was the part about Dr and Mrs Rogers sending him a "roadkill" frog with a poem enclosed in the package.
graceupongrace, just what "evidence" of bad theology by Billy Graham did you give? I read nothing in that link that was bad theology. He stated that God was sovereign and that he could not say with authority who would or would not be saved. Just because he didn't phrase the answer the way you would have apparently liked doesn't mean he's become weaker theologically.
Trollcates
I sense a sincere spirit within you and I am troubled that you have not been ministered to in the way that Jesus would have wanted, I know that it grieves a Holy God much more than it does me.
I know that God wants the very best for you and I nor anyone else have all the answers. I know that when I get to see Jesus face to face I am going to find out that some of the things I believed down here were false. I also know that some things I thought were wrong down here were not wrong.
I do know that IF you will start reading the Bible and ask God to reveal Himself to you IF He is real that He will make himself real to you. You don't need me, a SS teacher, pastor, preacher, evangelist, missionary nor any other human being. Just you and you alone with the Bible. That is all you need.
I can promise you that IF you sincerely desire to find out if the God of the Bible is real and you start to search for Him with all your heart you WILL find Him.
That is my promise to you and that is also God's promise to you. Why not take a little time and seek only TRUTH. The Truth will set you free.
I am praying that you will take my challenge.
Remember Jesus Loves YOU and ME.
DeWayne
ed_t:
graceupongrace, just what "evidence" of bad theology by Billy Graham did you give? I read nothing in that link that was bad theology. He stated that God was sovereign and that he could not say with authority who would or would not be saved. Just because he didn't phrase the answer the way you would have apparently liked doesn't mean he's become weaker theologically."
Actually you CAN state with considerable authority that Jesus is the only way to the Father - John 14:6.
allofgrace and lindon gave some interesting insight as well, e.g. the honesty of Graham's altar calls (6:42 pm post); you should consider their posts.
Hi ed_t,
If you listen to this sermon, roughly 5 minutes in you will hear a conversation between Billy Graham and Robert Schuller. I believe you will find it disturbing.
I have always loved Billy Graham and I believe he is as sincere as he can be. But if the comments on that recording represent his views, then I bet every BBC member would say he is sincerely wrong.
Trollcates,
I must echo the wisdom of Mr. Hartsoe. I do not believe it is mere karma that brought you to this forum. The Lord loves you and he is tugging on your heartstrings even now.
Trollcates
I have a small booklet named A Country Called Heaven. It has less than 20 pages. I would like to send it to you if you are interested. It would probably take less than 20 minutes to read it and answer the questions on the center pages.
You then pull out the center pages fold them over and tape or staple the edges. It is self addressed, all you have to do is put your return address and a stamp on it. Your pages will be graded and the next booklet will be sent. You do this for up to 12 or 13 booklets, all free of charge and by the time you complete the booklets you can know without a shadow of doubt where you will spend eternity.
How many times do you get something for free? Now salvation is a gift BUT it is not free. Jesus paid for it with His blood on the cross.
Trollcates
I forgot to add that if you want the booklet email NBBCOF and she will forward your address to me.
I would feel honored and privileged to send this to you. I can assure you that with a person of your learning, if you had all the lessons at once you would probably have to spend less than 2 hours to complete them all.
Wouldn't it be worth taking 2 hours of your time to find out for sure that you will be able to spend eternity with a God who loves you more than you can imagine.
I am praying for you.
Oh, again, how I appreciate you all's concern fot my soul, but my purpose here is not to find
Jesus, but as a concerned family member and friend of Southern Baptists that wishes to see these issues resolved for the sake of the congregation, justice for crimes against children (and adults) and their future safety at BBC.
Otherwise, you may find context for my being here in my prior posts. Your compassion touches me however.
blessings
"Dr. Spradlin mentioned today that many think Epaphras was probably the pastor of Colosse. See Col 1:7 "
Guess who is going to be rereading Col again tonight! :o)
allofgrace,
Even to the closest non-Christian friend the gospel will seem rude, as others have pointed out. With all due respect to Packer, I'm sure people spending an eternity in hell would have love to been "offended."
I think the rub there, bro, is that the offended may well go to hell, if that offense happened to be, well, their last straw. Just say'n.
Who's to say really? Another theological question I don't have to parse.
allofgrace,
Where do you find this teaching in the Bible?
trollcates: Your concern for your family members is commendable. I want to thank you for being such a gentleman (or woman?) here.
BTW: My cousin has missionary in Afghanistan since the war started. she studied Islam for her work there but found a more folkish form of Islam practiced that was very different. She also found some Buddhism thrown in. (Strange,huh?)
She interviewed a very accomodating Buddhist Monk for two hours to try and learn more. She filmed it so we all got to see it. However, none of us could figure it out. She was very frustrated! That is why I can understand what our friend in Thailand was saying the other day.
aog, Packer! He is still alive, right? Must be 100!
lindon,
He turned 80 this year... they had a celebration of sorts with speakers like Chuch Colson down at Beeson Seminary.
Ok, I was way off by 20 years.
Do you ever read any Martin Lloyd-Jones sermons?
Well at the risk of ticking anyone off by answering, there is a long history of Buddhism in Afghanistan, once called Odiyana. Padnasanbhava, the monk that brought Buddhism to Tibet, was from this place.
Weird, huh?
That's Padmasambhava--I cannot type well tonight.
If My memory serves me correct, that area (India, Pakistan, Afghanistan) was the cradle for several different eastern religions including Buddhism, Hinduism, and Islam.
BTW Trollcates, I studied a little bit about Buddhism in a World Religions class that I took as an elective. :).
trollcates, that expains why there is still that Buddhist influence. The Taliban tried to run it out. Remember when they smashed all the Buddhists statues before the war?
BTW: She gave me one of those light blue all over burka's for Christmas a few years ago. I use it to frustrate the multi culturalists. Just try wearing that around for a few hours. Some cultures ain't so great:o)
aog, I have been really learning a lot from MLJ.
G'night all.
Actually I am incorrect. According to the CIA World Fact Book, Afghanistan is 99% Muslim, but there is 1% that is other, including Buddhism.
lindon said:
Sorry, I did not 'get it'. I am a blonde, you know. I was thinking 'theology' about your comment...not Peter's personality. But you make a good point. It did get him into some bad positions.
ts said, this is what I am talking about.
You guys picked apart every one of my comments, especially finding fault with Billy Graham.
No one commented on the sin of fault finding and grumbling, perhaps it hit too close to home.
Someone mentioned Nathan the prophet confronting David. He confronted and moved on. Look at Nathans response to David after the confrontation.
1 Kings 1:23 So they told the king, saying, “Here is Nathan the prophet.” And when he came in before the king, he bowed down before the king with his face to the ground.
didnt Nathan recognize David's authority? Nathan didn't continually dwell on David's sin. Nathan allowed God to deal with it, and Nathan was not consumed with Davids sin.
Perhaps we could all learn something from Nathan. Confront and move on, dont dwell.
Terry,
I think a lot of the problems could have been solved early on if the administration would have at least listened to the issues Mark Sharpe has. If that had happened from the get go, I'm willing to guess the situation would not have boiled over to the point it has.
Wendi Thomas? WOW!!!
piglet- part time troll
No cutting or pasting necessary.
If you don't mind a CEO for a pastor, one who's in it for the money and power , who's surrounded (by your own admission) people who are like minded, who is above accountability, gets rid of anyone who disagrees, has all his pals serve on all the committees, makes all the decisions, keeps secrets from the members, has a deacon body with no real voice, breaks the law when it suits him, supports other liberal churches, and looks glossy on the outside but has the temper of Yosemite Sam, then you're just the kind of church member Steve Gaines wants and I'm sure you'll be happy at the new Bellevue.
REPLY- Yet another post full of attacks, hate, and out right lies. Some of you just cannot help youself.
Where do all of you get your resources to study church history?
(I know, off topic again.)
Ezekial,
Didnt Nathan have all the facts to the situation with David. You will never find Nathan to have an unkind word toward David or any kind of name calling.
Is anybody going to address the negative issue of faultfinders and grumblers.
Confession: I stood up and clapped after Dale Shipley finished singing "The Anchors Holds", it was wonderful.
And I admit, I did kinda smirk when we were singing "Friend of God" :) But I loved it.
LOL! wow. It seems disingenuous to demand an answer about fault-finding in such a fault-finding manner.
westtnbarrister said...
Hi ed_t,
If you listen to this sermon, roughly 5 minutes in you will hear a conversation between Billy Graham and Robert Schuller. I believe you will find it disturbing.
HEY...THE LINK JUST TOOK ME TO A DEAD END PAGE??? WOULD LOVE TO HEAR THIS...
br,
You are correct and my spirit is convicted. I posted the scripture showing faultfinders being in a very negative light. I am being a hypocrite being on here finding faults.
good bye
4545
Thanks for the warm fuzzy.
Below are some more responses to the facts stated ere if you want to cut and paste.
"That's a lie!"
"Not true!"
"Disagree!"
"Give me some facts."
"If you cannot give facts or at least more details of what you are talking about, you should have never opened your mouth."
"There have been MANY on your side of the issues on this blog give a totally different story..."
"Can you be more specific?"
westtnbarrister said...
ima,
Sorry about the dead link. I don't know what happened. The sermon is called True Ministers and a True Message. It was preached by Henry Mahan. You can search for it at SermonAudio.com. It should be easy to find.
Lindon said...
Isn't it interesting to think of who the pastors/elders of those churches were?
Anyway, I think maybe looking at this question should make us wonder if we have elevated the position of pastor to a place it was never intended? To more of a celebrity status than necessary.
Reply: I have been wondering that very thing! Have we created our own "Pastorate Stars"? I thought it was very interesting to read today in Colossians 4:15 "Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church that is in her house." The church met in her house!!
Ima,
I tried it one more time:
Mahan sermon
AOG,
YEP...I really should have taken typing in high school. It's such a struggle.
terry smith
You said:
Didnt Nathan have all the facts to the situation with David. You will never find Nathan to have an unkind word toward David or any kind of name calling.
Is anybody going to address the negative issue of faultfinders and grumblers.
Terry;
We have presented many facts, and places where they can be verified. You just don't like them. You are not here to gather facts, admit it.
Then, if facts ARE proven without a doubt, many say you don't care or that "we are all sinners" as though this excuses the pastor from the standard set for him in scripture.
As for any namecalling:
The Pharisees were all about appearances,too. They felt they were too holy to be criticized.
Jesus called the Pharisees "whited sepulchres" Matt 23:27
Jesus called them a "generation of vipers" Matt 23:33
Take all this up with Him.
What should a church look like?
(no sarcasm here)
Should we be part of the "house church" movement? How big is too big?
And... why do family members have to be separated from each other in order to have fellowship and Bible study?
br
Thanks for the advice. But my post ws actually a list some "creative" responses by 4545 to the issues raised here.
Maybe 4545 can just cut and paste from my comment for convenience.
:)
Terry Smith,
Something that is incredibly interesting about Jude 16 it is preceeded by Jude 3-4. Please take a moment to read it.
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
These are murmurers — Against men.
Complainers — Literally, complainers of their fate, against God.
Walking — With regard to themselves. After their own foolish and mischievous desires. Having men's persons in admiration for the sake of gain - Admiring and commending them only for what they can get
I believe that you have openly condemned the one that you have spoke so high of.
I would like to see:
Accountablility. Respect. Integrity.
Love, the greatest of the three...
I hope and pray for a time that my family will worship in an environment that honors the Word more than the words of men
So it is ok to spew hate and attacks and lies? Piglet? As someone has already asked you, what is your excuse? You think you and others have the right? Where is that in the Bible, I would like to read it? I think MANY on here need to read what God thinks of sin, ALL sin. This blog is full of hate, hard hearts, attacks, personal attacks, and sins. Do you think God is going to look over yours and focus on others?
Many of you are being used and are very deceived if you think you are doing God's work.
charis said- would like to see:
Accountablility. Respect. Integrity.
Love, the greatest of the three...
I hope and pray for a time that my family will worship in an environment that honors the Word more than the words of men
REPLY- Why do those same things not exist on this blog if they are desired so bad?
Lindon said, "Anyway, I think maybe looking at this question should make us wonder if we have elevated the position of pastor to a place it was never intended? To more of a celebrity status than necessary."
Right on Lindon. I refer to them as professional pastors. It has become as much a profession as a doctor or lawyer, and is many instances pays as well. I am afraid it has become so attractive that perhaps one chooses to be a pastor the same as one chooses to become a doctor or lawyer. The call they may be hearing may be their own, instead of the call of the Lord. This is very serious and I would never mock it...I am speaking very seriously. I pray those who are entering the cloth these days are clearly hearing the call of God into ministry.
The humility seems to be lacking.
Goodnight :)
I am well aware of that, it just seems that some on this board have no clue of it.
4545
I have not told lies. My conscience is clean before God on this.
I HATE what the Pharisees are doing in our chuch to hide their sin and I don't apologize for HATING sin and exposing it.
I require more from my spiritual leaders, obviously, than you do.
Does it make you feel holier to know that your leaders love money and despise the truth? Or could it be that you ARE one of them and the light of truth is burning your eyes?
Are you a little tense?
charis said...
Where do all of you get your resources to study church history?
(I know, off topic again.)
10:23 PM, January 14, 2007
Reply: There is much history in the books of the Bible itself. I use The International Inductive Study Bible and they also have a good "Bible Study Helps" located in the back. For outside sources, I sometimes use The New Manners and Customs of Bible Times, Understanding and Applying the Bible, How to Study Your Bible, and the Libronix Digital Library System (Logos). There are also excellent commentaries out there, but the best place to start is within the Bible itself.
I've only listed a few sources...I am sure others can offer more. It's a fascinating journey!! Hope this helps. :-)
4545,
Personal attacks are not "discussion" of the issues in a civil and Christian manner. They are not supposed to be on this blog.
Your attempts at distraction and your agitated rantings are unacceptable. Please refrain.
IMO- There's too much money involved
Churches so grand and huge with so much money in the bank... how many men are prepared to handle themselves and such responsiblity with integrity? AND in a way that honors the Lord, seeking His purposes?
To be qualified to hold such a position, one would need to be willing to burn it down, give it away, lose it all before allowing the name of Jesus to be dishonored in any way.
Only one king in Israel followed the Lord that way. How many kings do we think we can find who will follow Him that way?
4545
Me taking care of my sin is a daily exercise. It does not preempt my responsibility to hold my leaders accountable.
My sin is dealt with. Those of our leaders has yet to be. That sin and the covering up is destroying our church while you stand by and watch.
Thank you iflyaway :) The best resource is always the Bible. I'm looking to read more about church history. I've read biographies like those of Martin Luther. There are some here who seem to know a LOT, so I was wondering if there are other resources that have been very helpful.
Thanks again :)
Charis,
Regarding "...too much money involved".
I have said the same thing in my head. I agree with your comments 100%.
Dee
Piglet, what did I say that makes you think that I'm for Dr. Gaines? Because I've told you I don't like the tone here that makes me pro-Steve Gaines? I simply posted in an effort to get the site admin to stop the gossip and other trash that goes on here.
I am completely concerned for the name of Christ. I am ashamed of everything that is happening with Bellevue right now AND the comments on this website. All of it hurts the witness of Bellevue.
We might not be able to get Bellevue to act but we can get the blogmaster to do his part. Josh Manning shut down the comments on his site for the same reason.
You can read his reasoning here:
http://bellevuetruth.blogspot.com/2006/09/comments-are-ended.html
Very admirable statement.
Shouldn't the blogmaster ultimately responsible for the trash and gossip allowed on this site?
Trollcates, that comment goes with my accountability comment. Shouldn't the measure we use be used to us?
piglet- With every post, you show more and more of your true heart. Yet again, you love to attack and make things personal. You have NO clue who I am and I have asked you to stop acting like you do. I have asked you to stop putting words on my mouth. I have asked you to stop putting me in your "box" to help further your agenda. If you and the others had the "Truth" on your side, it seems you would not have to resort to your spewing of hate, attacks, lies, and I could go on and on. Again, you cannot justify many things on this blog by the Word of God.
Your last post was meant to upset me on purpose, to get me going. It was also to downgrade me. You might want to read what the Bible has to say about that.
4545,
Have you ever attended Phil Weatherwax's anger management class?
2006- What are you talking about?
4545,
You are guilty of doing the exact same things that you accuse others of doing. Look to your own heart.
You are degrading this blog with your constant accusations and, as you like to call it, "spewing hate".
AOG, would you mind sending a few of your favorites to my email address? It's in my profile
Thanks :)
bugsii
There IS, undeniably, some trash but when it comes to gossip, I beg to differ.
What so many call lies and rumors has turned out to be true. Some opposing us have thrown in a lie to see if it would be picked up and spread (ie; the supposed staff meeting with Jim Barnwell) but it was not because we "verify, verify, verify".
Now, as for comments on Jaimie's teeth and stuff like that, I could do without that.
The blogmaster is in charge so why not send an email with your concerns?
bugsii
As to whether you are pro or anti Gaines - sorry if I have the wrong impression.
4545,
You said, "2006, what are you talking about?"
Click on the "New BBC Open Forum" blue wording at the top of this page. Then, the main page of this forum comes up and on the right side at the top you will see in pale letters "About Me". READ what is supposed to be followed as acceptable on this blog.
bugsii- I agree with you 100%. This blog and "blog master" is all about power. A power trip, the same thing they are accusing others of being a part of. The person in control of this blog will be held accountable before God. We might never know the true harm it has done and how it has hurt the Witness for Christ to people around the world. Somehow, some think bring the "truth" is all that matters, no matter the cost.
2006- Have you somehow missed all the personal attacks on this blog over the past few months?
4545
I didn't insinuate that I know who you are. I don't.
But while on this subject - you wouldn't happen to be the guy who taught the class on anger management, would you?
My supposition that you are in leadership is an attempt to explain this attitude of yours.
You are so outraged at the truth.
Your response is always:
"..hate, attacks, lies, and I could go on and on.."
I am confident because I stand on the truth. You just seem shaken by it.
4545,
You are one to talk. You post attack after attack. That is all you have ever brought to this blog (and that goes for when you were posting as hisservant).
The BBC leaders want to hold on to power and postions at all costs. I'll side with those standing for truth at all costs over those fighting for power and position every time.
AOG, Thank you
That should keep me busy for a while :)
4545,
"2006, Have you somehow missed the personal attacks on this blog over the past few months?"
No, I have been reading this all as it happened. Besides you, there are several people who like to come on here and blog in a very disruptive manner by attacking other bloggers personally. THAT is the unacceptable part.
Contributions to this blog should be carried out in a respectful, Christian manner. Simply coming on here and ranting at others is not acceptable by the standards established by New BBC Open Forum.
charis,
I also sent you a link on church history
4545,
It's not about power to me or anyone else here. I think we just want to get to the bottom of some issues. If it was all about power, I would be publishing your name on here, but I won't for the sake of your own protection. I have given you the opportunity to express your concerns like everyone else here, but when it get's out of hand, I must take out the trash. It's that simple. Please don't give me reason tonight to do that. That goes for anyone on here. It's not power, but as the blogmaster, it's my job. You want to start your own blog and make your own rules, be my guest, but on this blog we will all be civil and respectful or I hit that little trash can under you name.
Thanks.
NBBCOF
4545
If this is what it takes to bringout the truth,so be it. The leaders you defend,I imagine, are thoroughly disgusted , feel powerless and out of control that they cannot silence everyone.
Suppose they'll ever consider Matt. 18 a more practical route to resolution?
God did set that out as our guideline because He knows best. Our leaders think they know better than God on this and there in lies the problem.
Leaders in opposition with God will destroy this church and all those who come in contact with it.
The blog can only expose what is already there.
In a sermon by Dr.Rogers about forgiveness he stated that first three things must take place. Sin must be:
1)Exposed to the light - God is using this blog as alightto expose what the leadership is tryingto cover
2)Expelled from your life- After exposure, repentance must occur.
3)Expressed to the Lord - We must agree with God about our sin.
This needs to happen before the church body. Gaines and many other leaders have sinned against this church and God.
Not A Stepford Sheep,
You've got (yahoo) mail.
There would be no need for a blog or Saving Bellevue had the leaders provided a forum within the church. When they tried to silence dissent they brought the websites upon themselves.
Post a Comment