Story and video links to this story are here.
Commentary by Don Boys.
Trinity Baptist College forum.
More Jacksonville TV coverage.
This is part of a letter received from a group of concerned FBC Jacksonville members:
"We are a group of very concerned FBC Jax members because of recent changes since Mac Brunson came to the church in March '06. Absent the PW mess and the "itty bitty fence" fiasco, there are quite a few similarities between these two men who have taken over at FBC Jax and BBC. But that is not why I'm writing.
"One of our concerns that has surfaced in the last few days is whether Mac Brunson will still allow Steve Gaines to have a Keynote speaking slot at the Feb 2007 Pastors' Conference given the gravity of SG's situation at BBC. While we don't want SG to come, we would think that the concerned members of BBC also don't want FBC Jax to show support to Steve Gaines by allowing him to still have a prominent speaking slot. I would like to see a link at the www.savingbellevue.com site drawing attention to the fact that SG is still slated for a Keynote speaking slot at this Pastors' Conference attended by 5000+ pastors. Perhaps this would help some of the speakers to ask Mac Brunson to pull the plug on SG's slot."
"FriendinJax" wrote:
"Sorry to hear that the pastor at my church, Mac Brunson, didn't respond to your concerns about SG being on the Pastors' Conference agenda in February. I know that some FBC Jax church members have contacted Jeanie Blaylock at First Coast News, who is the reporter who broke the Messer/Trinity Baptist stories to let her know of the Bellevue/Gaines/PW situation. Jeanie is a member at FBC Jacksonville, and I hope she will be as upset as many of the FBC Jax members are about Steve Gaines having a prominent role at the Pastors' Conference. Perhaps her disgust over Messer's hiding of the truth [is such] that she will be disgusted with Mac for keeping SG on the agenda - and maybe she'll do a piece on it."
Mac Brunson's e-mail address is here for anyone who'd like to contact him regarding Steve Gaines' speaking engagement at the Pastors' Conference February 2-6, 2007. Choose "pastor" from the drop-down list on that page. You must sign your name if you expect a reply.
Ms. Blaylock's e-mail address is in the article in the first link above.
Note: January 4th's letters to the editor of the Commercial Appeal are here. You may recognize the names of a couple of the authors.
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502 comments:
1 – 200 of 502 Newer› Newest»Everyone - I posted this earlier today on yesterday's thread and want to make sure you all see this so you can call or email Tim Ellsworth at Union University:
__________________________________
Those of you that have picked up on the fact that Steve Gaines will be speaking in Jacksonville next month at the Pastor's Conference will also want to send a note to Tim Ellsworth, who is hosting what is ironically called a Baptist "identity" conference. SG will be the ONLY pastor on the agenda of other speakers. How ironic. I found this information on Wade Burleson's blog from yesterday and posted the following
___________________________________
Thanks for your interest in the conference, Wade. I'm glad you and others here are planning to attend, and I'll look forward to seeing you on campus.
Tim Ellsworth
Director of News and Media Relations
Union University
_____________________________
My post to Tim Ellsworth:
Tim - How ironic that Steve Gaines is speaking at an "identity" conference. I am curious as to why Steve Gaines is on the list of speakers. He is the only pastor in the group and is currently embroiled in controversy and under criminal investigation. Might it send the wrong message to those attending to have SG speak under the circumstances since he admittedly harbored a pedophile staff member. To see the seriousness of what he did, I invite you to cut and paste the links below as a similar investigation is going on here in Jacksonville against a mega-church pastor that also chose not to disclose a pedophile staff member. Here are the links. Unbelievable! You must see these! CAUTION: The accounts are graphic.
6:00 pm First Coast News Report:
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/video/player.aspx?aid=80816&bw=
11:00 pm First Coast News Report:
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/video/player.aspx?aid=80896&bw=
I guess they wanted a Union graduate to speak.......has a reply been received from your email requesting he look at the video and other information?
Mike Bratton said...
I understand that better than you might imagine. I would also encourage you to remember that we have present responsibilities to focus on the here-and-now, rather than on the way-back-when. We must be watchful against defining ourselves by our past traumas (or letting them unduly color our perceptions), and instead be defined by our past, present, and future relationship with Jesus Christ.
Our Lord suffered in ways we cannot comprehend, yet when He showed His scars, He did so out of encouragement and love. What has injured us in the past cannot injure us in the present--and what others meant for evil, God ultimately means for good.
****************************************
Thanks, Mike. You brought me to tears thinking of the MANY times I have received His encouragement and love. I have considered and appreciate your comments very much, and I appreciate the gentleness in your tone.
God Bless You, too.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006. :
IDOLATRY:
1. the religious worship of idols.
2. excessive or blind adoration, reverence, devotion, etc.
Just cause you don't like the truth, don't mean it ain't so!
I am curious as to who 4545 is based on the nature and content of his/her posts. Could the numbers "4545" be a street address? Or a birthdate April 5, 1945? Or a phone number suffix? Perhaps he/she has posted on other blogs, or facebook, or myspace and can be better identified that way. Perhaps there is a relationship with "Ace" that could also be discerned. Knowing who these folks are could be beneficial in respecting their views. I know I would weigh their input more heavily if I knew who they were.
To clear one issue up, I am not related to 4545... I don't know who they are. Or if I do, I don't know them as '4545'
FYI:
Next week's sermon notes are already up at
http://bellevue.org/templates/cusbellevue1103/details.asp?id=1360&PID=5180&Style=
(The first sermon in the New Beginnings series)
Johnjaxthe baptist, then could not that true of everyone on here then?
Identity=credibility????
Graceupongrace said:
FYI:
Next week's sermon notes are already up at
http://bellevue.org/templates/cusbellevue1103/details.asp?id=1360&PID=5180&Style=
(The first sermon in the New Beginnings series)
*****
Take a look at those notes..Makes you wonder if they are the prelude to PW coming back on staff and being in charge of the nursery.
Excellent article by Pastor Chuck Baldwin, just posted today:
Prostitutes In The Pulpit
EZ, I was trying to make the points you made, about by not knowing we are all equal. Also that someones name or status should not make them more credible than anyone else here.
It sounded different to me when I wrote it, probably sounded different when you said it to.
Memphis and Ezekial - I agree with your points. We all like to protect our identity for various reasons. However, we do not need to know specifically who everyone is, but at least should know in general who they are and why they are blogging here. For example, I am a baptist layman that attends FBC of Jacksonville. If I were a pastor or staff member, that might add significance to my post. For those that are members of Bellevue, knowing that general information about them adds weight to their post. The same for Ace. If Ace is a personal friend of the family, why not share that? We don't need to know anything else, but we can evaluate the posts, and maybe soften our responses, if we know this. As for 4545, it would not surprise me if in fact he is SG. If not, he is definitely one that is very close to SG. Knowing this, without identifying him fully, would change the tone of the discussions and add incredible weight to his input. Instead of criticizing Ace and 4545, and question their motives every time they blog, I know I would treat them both with much more respect and encouragement, and much less accusatory tone, if in fact they are "more than" just Bellevue members like most everybody else.
Ace - why do you refer to 4545 as "they" and "them" in your post?
Ace said: To clear one issue up, I am not related to 4545... I don't know who they are. Or if I do, I don't know them as '4545'
John,
Not trying to answer for ACE, he can answer you himself, but it's my experience from growing up in these parts, that "they" means,
" that person over there"
and them means...umm, well,you know..
'mama and em'
This, my friend, is 'southspeak' :)
john,
here's an example:
" when's mama and em comin over'
' they said they would be over later'
memphis & ez,
You can bet that 4545 is not Steve ("I'd rather be flogged than blogged") Gaines...
...and I think we should spell things write...
**grin**
TS
Folks,
We do have a number of preachers here. I would invite them to look and see if this is context.
Sermon Notes
In particular point 2 - Forget your Past.
Paul obviously in vs 13 is refering to his past righteousness (vs. 4-7) that he is forgetting not his past sins.
It doesn't appear that Paul is calling the church to set sin to the side and press on without dealing with it.
He proceeds in vs 17 to call us to follow him as he has given a good example and to follow others that have likewise given good examples.
These are the verses preceding & following this passage.
Philippians 3:4-7
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, Rom. 11.1 a Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
I really would like the preachers out there to offer a comment or two on what they see in this. I would also be interested to know if I am way out in left field with my observations.
I suppose other folks may fire at will, but I am interested in some opinions from some of the preachers out there.
Johnjaxthebaptist, to me all that matters is that we are all Christians, that we are all trying to remain civil, and I guess it does not matter that we are not all BBC members.
And I have spoken to Ace through email several times, and I do not know his name nor do I care too. Ace is a good guy really.
Memphis
a simple Bellevue member :)
Perhaps 4545 could stand for Jeremiah 45:4-5
I am told that Josh Stuart announced his 'retirement' last night at choir. Think he is going to Houston.
Anyone else hear this? Is it true? IF so, how sad that we would lose someone that gifted.
Musicians like Josh are hard to find.
If you really want to get rid of SG, focus like a laser on the admitted fact that he knew six months ago what PW had done.
Everything else is divisive, arguable and most likely legal.
The PW episode is illegal on many levels and indefensible because SG admits knowledge and, by inaction, consent.
In the Bellevue Employee Handbook, ( there's one somewhere ) isn't there a paragraph about criminal activity versus employment?
If PW is terminated for his behavior, SG is highly vulnerable from an employee perspective. If PW resigns, it gets harder.
John,
Ace - why do you refer to 4545 as "they" and "them" in your post?
Because I don't know if 4545 is a "him" or "her" and was lazy and didn't want to write a longer post than I had to. If you're thinking that I think 4545 is more than one person, I am not thinking that...I just used that term because I didn't know the gender of the person...that's all. :)
FedUp,
I am told that Josh Stuart announced his 'retirement' last night at choir.
I don't think it should be referred to as "retirement" but hey..that's just me.
Think he is going to Houston.
That is correct...in a few weeks he'll be moving to Houston and will serve at a church there.
There is VERY little of Christ love on this blog. I am simply amazed at what I have read on here from "Christian" people. It would not matter if all you claim is "truth", many of you are way way out of line. Many of you are 100% flesh and self. Many of you are deceived. Jesus would not do or say ANY of the things I read on this board. You can slam be and go nuts all you want, but that will not change the facts. Many of you cannot defend your attitudes, your tone, your attacks, your responses, your harsh words, your judging attitudes and I could go on forever. There is no excuse. Many of you are being used to harm the Christian witness and what Christ did on the Cross. As Christians, we are bond servants and we DO NOT have any rights. You have no right to do the things you are doing.
So ACE is in the choir? How sparklie:)
Mom4,
So ACE is in the choir? How sparklie:)
Actually, no, he isn't. :)
he?
HE must be in the Orchestra then ?:)
4545,
and yet, here you are STILL again wtih us.
4545
OKKK...
so help me understand how you have the right to come on here and attack us..
I'm afraid I dont' understand.
Thanks.
Pot meets Kettle
4545 said...
There is VERY little of Christ love on this blog. I am simply amazed at what I have read on here from "Christian" people. It would not matter if all you claim is "truth", many of you are way way out of line. Many of you are 100% flesh and self. Many of you are deceived. Jesus would not do or say ANY of the things I read on this board. You can slam be and go nuts all you want, but that will not change the facts. Many of you cannot defend your attitudes, your tone, your attacks, your responses, your harsh words, your judging attitudes and I could go on forever. There is no excuse. Many of you are being used to harm the Christian witness and what Christ did on the Cross. As Christians, we are bond servants and we DO NOT have any rights. You have no right to do the things you are doing.
Several of you have contacted me about supporting SNAP. Here is the LINK.
We try to speak out for victims of all denominations, not just against the Catholic Church. I want to thank all of your for your encouragement and support. By the SNAP only has 2 paid employees. The rest of are just volunteers.
I love you all,
4545 has to be one of our "youth", surely!!! That is not an attack, just an opinion only - mine.
Mom4,
he?
Yes, I am a he.
HE must be in the Orchestra then ?:)
Hmm...I must be then. I don't get it...considering how I know that Josh Stewart is leaving and moving that makes me a choir/orchestra member? Not really. FedUp was the person who brought it up and it doesn't seem like she is in either seeing how she said 'I am told'... but whatever. :)
How is 4545's post an attack? I fail to see it and I thought it was a great post. It applies to me and I think everyone else here.
ace,
But you had the facts?? Do you know how hard it is to get those nowadays! I am impressed with your expertise! Thanks!
okay, Ace is a sharpshooter! Right
No, he is a card player?? Maybe he has a mean serve in tennis.....an old fighter pilot??? or maybe he is a scratch golfer with alot of holes in one.....or maybe a really good student that Aced all the tests!
Does it really matter to anyone? :)
4545,
"There is VERY little of Christ love on this blog."
Then bring some love!!!
Mom4,
I am impressed with your expertise! Thanks!
I wouldn't consider what I posted as being expertised in anything... :)
memphis said...re:ACE
"Does it really matter to anyone? :):
Naw, just joking around on this rainy day. We love him in Christ anyway!
Thanks, Memphis...like I've said from day one. My identity doesn't matter here...people really shouldn't be concerned about who I am.
4545 wrote:
"Many of you cannot defend your attitudes, your tone, your attacks, your responses, your harsh words, your judging attitudes and I could go on forever."
Hmmm... I thought you already were... going on forever, that is. Wow. If I believed in reincarnation, I'd say "hisservant" had died and come back as "4545."
NASS
You can see Sunday’s sermon notes at:
Bellevue.org.
NASS,
Do you agree with the quote from 4545 you quoted? Do you believe that stuff is true?
RE: Josh Stewart - The Bellevue Today for this Sunday is on Bellevues site. There is an article in there that says that he is moving to houston to pursue his Masters in Music. Doesn't mention anything about him serving at another church. (Although I am sure with his talent that he may very well already have a job down there)--So, just wanted to show that someone can have information without being a part of the choir or the orchestra.
Regardless of how the Rogers family (and Jim Whitmire and Bob Sorrell and Rob Mullins, etc.) feel about Steve Gaines- doesn't it speak volumes to all of you that none of them have join the "cause"?
Because I have a hard time believing that any of them will involve themselves in the type of tactics (blogs and terms like KoolAid drinkers and hate and troublemakers) that have been employed during all this.
bepatient,
It is more amazing that they have not turned cart wheels up and down the aisle during the pep-rallys. I can only grin imagining Dr. Whitmire doing cart wheels down the aisle in support. Guess that hasn't happened either has it.
When 4545 reads this blog, he cringes like someone does when they've been in darkness for a long time and the lights are turned on.
I'm sure it does hurt him to read truth. Don't confuse righteous anger with hate. After months of being ignored by Steve Gaines and his men on various issues, this blog has been incredibly effective in getting formal responses from Steve Gaines and his men.
When 4545 or Ace comes on and says this blog is not truthful, they should state specifics. They can't so they blanket a general statement of hate, lies, etc.
Would Steve Gaines admitted trespassing, had it not been for the blog.
Would Steve Gaines admitted renegotiating his salary had it not been for the blog.
Would Steve Gaines admitted telling Gardendale he had big plans to change Bellevue because he didn't like much of what he saw had it not been for the blog?
Would Steve Gaines admitted he went to another church north of hear and trashed his own sheep had it not been for the blog?
Would Steve Gaines admitted not reporting an admitted pedophile to authorities had it not been for the blog?
We could spend all night if you want listing more but I think you get the point.
Keep in mind the there are always going to be folks out there who say right is wrong and wrong is right. 4545 and Ace I'm afraid are in this category.
Truth is not something that Steve Gaines is accustomed to. Truth is not something the Communications Committee was accustomed to. It has been documented over and over the numerous statements made by the CC both in meetings and mailed statements that were not the truth.
I encourage 4545 and Ace to schedule a meeting with the pastor and his leadership to discuss truth since you seem to be so concerned about it now.
Everyone on the blog has been concerned with Truth from day 1. I'm glad to see you on board now.
Bepatient said...
Regardless of how the Rogers family (and Jim Whitmire and Bob Sorrell and Rob Mullins, etc.) feel about Steve Gaines- doesn't it speak volumes to all of you that none of them have join the "cause"?
If Mrs. Rogers' DENIED request to clear her husband's name was not standing for a "cause", what would you call it. If Mr. and Mrs. Whitmire's vist with S Gaines was not appealing for their "cause", what was it. If Rob Mullins' "check" incident was not revealed, we would not know what his "cause" was. Seems to me that we are hearing from them loud and clear folks. Listen.....
I just heard from the pastor in jacksonville...it's not good.
I did not sign my name so that I would not have a 4 man goon squad come to my house, and explained that in my letter.
This was his response:
Dr. Brunson does not respond to anonymous letters.
So there ya go folks...
Adults are busy protecting other adults, networking with one another to add to their bank account. They do not care about the exposure of children to pedophiles.
Church is a business. Let's just face it.
swtt- Try and justify the garbage on the blog all you want. That will never make it right. That will never make it glorify Christ. You and many others are acting in the flesh.
Your last post was just another list of attacks.
fedup, at least you know he read it. Wasn't that the point you wanted? (I do not know since I did not read the email you sent him, but I am guessing you wanted to be a voice to him)
If you think this blog and the hate filled attacks on it glorify Christ in any way, you are badly deceived.
fedup said- I did not sign my name so that I would not have a 4 man goon squad come to my house, and explained that in my letter.
REPLY- WOW!!
The only thing that matters to me about ace is he has this thing about cookies...I happen to like cookies :) ...so there's ONE thing we agree on.
4545,
Ditto.
I have had two responses from pastors to my 3:19 post via e-mail, both in support of the idea that the sermon that is planned for Sunday morning is taken out of context.
I would still like to hear from more of the pastors that are out there concerning this.
4545,
Goodness..do you have a "hate filled attack" key on your keyboard?...isn't it just a bit overboard to call every post on this blog "hate filled attacks"?
4545,
You are correct in that there is a lot of garbage on the blog. This is the purpose of the blog, to expose all of the garbage so the church can be cleaned.
The comments from 95% of the blog including folks who support Steve Gaines have been done out of love for the Lord and His church. There is nothing personal in this blog. It's about integrity in the church and it's about principle.
How can you argue for things that are blatantly wrong? I just don't get it. I've met more and more folks who have completely changed their view of what's going on inside Bellevue since the blog has allowed the masses to hear the truth.
Don't be afraid of the truth. If there is nothing to hide, encourage Steve Gaines and his men to be open and transparent about all things.
There shouldn't be anything a member can't ask and get a quick answer.
Enjoy your evening. This is not personal.
FACT:
I was just on the phone with David Coombs.
FACT:
He REFUSED to admit that SG did wrong by not reporting PW as a sex offender in June.
I asked him, POINT BLANK, several times, and he REFUSED to admit it.
This is what he said:
The facts will come out of our investigation on Jan. 16 and I will comment at that time.
FACT:
When I asked him why he would need a committee to tell him whether or not it was wrong for SG to allow PW around children in the last 6 months, all he would say was:
The committee will have their report on Jan. 16 and I will comment at that time.
FACT:
He said that SG did not break the law in not reporting it in June.
FACT:
I asked him if this 'internal investigation' was going to be like the CC and he pretended to have no idea what i was talking about.
FACT:
I asked him why PW was still on the payroll, and he said it was because they needed his cooperation and he would not cooperate if they fired him.
LOL
This is MY OPINION:
He's on the payroll so he will cooperate, all right.
Have these men no shame????
4545,
If we are (and we are) bond servants and we are the body of Christ, then how have you come to the conclussion that your judgement of these actions is to the glory of God and ours is not.
4545
you say that like there is no such thing as a bbc 4 man goon squad
tim,
allow me to correct your vocabulary:
fact=that's not true
not standing and applauding=anti-bellevue
posting on this blog=hate-filled attack
expecting accountability=tearing down a godly man
He said that SG did not break the law in not reporting it in June.
Well, I guess he can argue with the DA on that one. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that this was a violation of Tennessee law.
allofgrace,
My eyes are now wide open. How could I have been so blind.
BTW did you look at the 3:19 post and see the sermon outline and topic for the SSS (self-serving-Sunday). Look at that Micah reference as well. That one is way out there....Pass Over? I think not. Die for perhaps, but never simply passed over.
swtt,
It might be Jeremiah 45:4-5, that would make it rather interesting no wouldn't it.
tim,
I did see the post...I'm going to check it out this evening.
tim,
interesting thing about that passage...It's the LORD doing the uprooting, tearing down, etc.
Déjà Vu? Wow! Great name for a thread. Seems like I've heard that before...
fedup,
I'm sorry for your frustration but one has to believe that no one in authority at church will comment on anything...and that's appropriate given that there is some process in place for which there will be an outcome. Good info on Jan 16th, though. Nice work!
TS
Many of you have been concerned about an official investigation. I received confirmation today in the mail from DCS that in fact there is an investigation going on at this time. I hope that will relive some of your fears.
They won't tell me anymore. If charges are to be made it will come from the D.A.'s office once the investigations are over.
There is no need to contact these agencies unless you have additional information that would prove helpful. Please be in prayer for them as they do their job.
God bless all of you and thanks for your many emails and words of encouragement. My job was easy, I just reported it. I defer to the professionals now.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator for West Tennesee and Memphis
4545,
You're Phil W, aren't you? I KNEW it!
4545
I see two colt 45`s and a cowboy shooting from both hips!
Yep....Double Hip Shooter fer sur!
This might be beating a dead horse but I'm just catching up. For everybody who claims to have never heard SG preach a self-serving sermon be sure to attend this Sunday. Judging from those notes he'll be doing his darnedest to get you to forget 2006 all together.
Phil W???
Do you mean Phil Weatherwax, who is involved in BBC`s mission work all across Memphis helping the poor and needy of all races while he makes racists remarks behind their backs?
The same Phil W. that supports racial purity in marriages???
Mixed marriages are a sin Phil????? Since when?
Having just read the letters to the editor in the Commercial Appeal, I continue to be shocked at the ignorance of Ms Tapp! To shift the blame for the sins of Steve Gaines onto the deceased Adrian Rogers is abhorrent! Where is she getting her information - from Steve Gaines??
Mrs Rogers AND Paul Williams AND Bob Sorrell have all said that Dr Rogers knew nothing of the sins of Paul Williams. I cannot believe this shallow attempt to defame a man of KNOWN INTEGRITY in leiu of holding a man of NO integrity to accout for illegal actions!!
Ms Billie Tapp - Use your brain and THINK!!!!!
HELLO0000000??????
Swtt,
Two other choices for 4545
The narcissist manual
Psalms 45:4-5
4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously …..
or the infamous
Ministers that deserve Mansions passage
Ezekiel 45:4-5
4 The holy portion of the land shall be for the priests the ministers of the sanctuary, which shall come near to minister unto the LORD: and it shall be a place for their houses, and a holy place for the sanctuary.
5 And the five and twenty thousand of length, and the ten thousand of breadth, shall also the Levites, the ministers of the house, have for themselves, for a possession for twenty chambers.
Is Billie Tapp the sunday school teacher at BBC who has been writing the venomous letters to Nass?
truthhound,
One and the same
I am glad the DCS is investigating it. I trust the internal investigation as much as I do politicians. And thats very little.
Lindon,
So sorry...you threw your books away instead of burning them. My mistake...and I apoligize profusely. Fogiven?
After watching the Trinity videos and the reactions from staff members that some who inquire receive I'll go on record right now as saying my opinion is PW will be found guilty of "Inappropriate Behavior". It worked so well at TBC for so long.
fedupatbbc said...
David Coombs by telephone conversation reported.
"The committee will have their report on Jan. 16 and I will comment at that time."
How can anyone state with certainty that the report will be complete on Jan 16? I am not sure that I completely understand that. Are they planning on reporting whether the investigation is complete or not?
Just curious.
truthhound wrote:
"Is Billie Tapp the sunday school teacher at BBC who has been writing the venomous letters to Nass?"
I'm afraid so. I wasn't going to divulge her last name, but she "outed" herself in the "morning publication."
one member wrote:
"Read and weep for this lady, she knows not what she does."
I hope you're right. I would hate to think someone would intentionally say some of the things she has. Here are a couple:
"Dr. Adrian Rogers is dead and gone, and people must accept it and move on."
That must make the Rogers family feel really good to read that!
"Dr. Gaines should not have to suffer for something that was terribly wrong under the leadership of Dr. Rogers."
That, too.
NASS
tim,
I couldn't understand how they could say at the beginning that it would take 30 days...how could they know that?
Tim said:
"How can anyone state with certainty that the report will be complete on Jan 16? I am not sure that I completely understand that. Are they planning on reporting whether the investigation is complete or not?
~~~~~~~~~~~
Reply:
Tim,
I think, sadly, the 'internal report' is probably already complete and has been since very early on in the 'investigation'. The time consuming part has been "putting lipstick on this pig".
This will be my shortest post yet.
If Dr. Gaines had stood on the Word of God in June he would not have to lean on the words of men (attorneys) in January.
Folks those are undisputable facts. This is David Brown and I have approved this message.
ju wrote:
"For everybody who claims to have never heard SG preach a self-serving sermon be sure to attend this Sunday. Judging from those notes he'll be doing his darnedest to get you to forget 2006 all together."
Amen, huh? I have a feeling January 7, 2007 will be a date that will live in Bellevue infamy. Heh heh.
ema,
It will be even more difficult to get people to kiss the pig, just because they managed to get the lipstick straight. They need to make double sure that they come forward with the entire unadultrated truth. No spin, the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I can say with almost certainty that any shade of a 99.99% truth will be disputed and revealed, so it they had better realize that the truth is imperative.
Fedupatbbc - thanks for emailing my pastor, even though he did not respond to you, my guess is that you are not the first and only to write him. Hopefully, he or his staff at least look at the content before making that auto reply. One person to email would be Jeanne Blaylock, who did the investigative pieces at First Coast News and who is a member at FBC Jax. If you let her know of your concern and ask her to email the pastor, he would not be able to ignore her.
Your right it is a business for these mega church celebrities. I can't imagine replacing a man like Jerry Vines or Adrian Rogers and then expecting to receive even half of the salary they earned over many years of faithful service. But to come in and demand MORE, that is greed and arrogance that calls into question the "call" pastors are supposed to have. If God "calls" a missionary, they give up their homes and salaries, they don't negotiate for increases. It is sickening how we believe this nonsense from these guys and they continue to play us like fools. The best way to get their attention is to stop giving. Let's see if salaries go down if giving goes down.:)
As to 4545 - any chance this could be David Coombs? What is your opinion?
Tim:
You seem to have a pretty good grasp on the details of this entire situation, so I want to ask your opinion of something.
I was a staunch Gaines supporter until I got drop-kicked at the Union City speech. [Quote from transcript: "I mean they were….it sounded like a ballgame (whistles)…I can’t do all that stuff…they just goin’ nuts, man… It’s like, give ‘em water pistols…they’ll attack Hell…amen...(audience laughs)…we’ll put that thing out (chuckles) (audience laughs)"].
I was offended by the entire speech, but for some reason that one little portion knocked my "helmet" and "blinders" off at the same time.
Now the question: Why do you think that even though SG seems to have wanted to get rid of everyone who was part of the "Dr. Rogers team", he would have risked this much to keep Paul Williams dirty secret?
It seems that would have been a perfect opportunity to rid himself of another of the people from the "past" that he seems so eager to "forget". All this benevolence and forgiveness he would like us to believe he had seems out of character for him in light of the way he has treated others.
Your opinion, please.
What that tells me is they can feel the situation slipping from their grasp. He's already apologized and asked for forgiveness for the whole thing once. Things just aren't going away like they thought they would. So, more apologies to keep the rank and file members who aren't really that informed in the "fold".
ema wrote:
"Now the question: Why do you think that even though SG seems to have wanted to get rid of everyone who was part of the "Dr. Rogers team", he would have risked this much to keep Paul Williams dirty secret?
"It seems that would have been a perfect opportunity to rid himself of another of the people from the "past" that he seems so eager to "forget". All this benevolence and forgiveness he would like us to believe he had seems out of character for him in light of the way he has treated others."
I realize you asked Tim his opinion, but I'd like to hear your take on it.
Tim,
I thought your suggestions about Psalms 45:4-5 and Ezekiel 45:4-5 were interesting as well.
On Jeremiah 45:4-5
Baruch is rebuked. After Baruch had recorded the scroll which Jehoiakim would destroy, Baruch had apparently sought career advancement, only to find himself associated with the despised Jeremiah. God reminded Baruch that the present order of society was doomed; he would be well advised to seek God's glory, not his own.
How many times have we been reminded of examples of SG seeking his own glory and taking credit for things that should only include God, not man.
SG apologizes a worthless based on all the other troubles he has brought to BBC. Hopely this will end soon and we will have a new pastor. Please send MD, CT, ST, PW packing with him.
nthepew,
The answer to your question is yes, but I don't think it's anything worthy of discussion here.
NBBCOF
At this point, after all that has transpired, even an apology by SG from the pulpit has a hollow ring. "Damage control" comes to mind more than real repentance.
I know it's cliche, but actions do speak louder than words.
I am in the choir and I hope that no one thinks that I support the things that SG is doing. I refuse to leave the choir and I refuse to leave MY church.
truthseeker wrote:
"I am in the choir and I hope that no one thinks that I support the things that SG is doing. I refuse to leave the choir and I refuse to leave MY church."
If some in the choir initiate another standing O for SG, will you stand or will you join us in sitting on your hands? Were you there two weeks ago for the standing O the choir started? If so, did you participate? Really, I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm just curious. I can imagine how lonely it would feel to be up there in the choir and have to make such a decision. I happen to know you've got some good company in the choir with you, so hang in there!
Has anyone read the Jerry Falwell 'Bump in the Road' report at www.stopbaptistpredators.org/
Under the heading BLACK HOLES OF 2006...
I think we all need to do a lot of praying, emailing and letter writing...
truthseeker said...
I refuse to leave MY church.
Reply:
Been there, done that!!!!!!
YEAH, TRUTHSEEKER!!!!!!!
fedupatbbc: Sorry to hear that the pastor at my church, Mac Brunson, didn't respond to your concerns about SG being on the Pastor's Conference agenda in February. I know that some FBC Jax church members have contacted Jeanie Blaylock at First Coast News, who is the reporter who broke the Messer/Trinity Baptist stories to let her know of the Bellevue/Gaines/PW situation. Jeanie is a member at FBC Jacksonville, and I hope she will be as upset as many of the FBC Jax members are about Steve Gaines having a prominent role at the Pastor's Conference. Perhaps her disgust over Messer's hiding of the truth that she will be disgusted with Mac for keeping SG on the agenda - and maybe she'll do a piece on it.
As I've stated before, I don't expect Mac Brunson to take a stand and pull SG from the line-up; unfortunately I expect him to fully EMBRACE Steve Gaines at the Pastor's Conference, and help SG play the "victim"; a victim of the evil bloggers who are trying to bring a good man down. Mac has mentioned blogs in a negative connotation in several sermons during 2006.
Must be just a coincidence, but did anyone notice that both Mac and Steve Gaines are on the same page with their sermons? They both have sermon series starting this Sunday entitled "New Beginnings"...
truthseeker- I think Dr. Gaines will be the Pastor for many years to come. What will you do?
Oops.
YEA, TRUTHSEEKER!!!!!!!!!!
Jesusdotcalm:
Yes, I have read about Falwell's reference to the Messer/Gray pedophilia as a "bump in the road". I used to respect Jerry Falwell, until I read that he said what he said to the Trinity congregation about the 20+ people damaged by the monster Bob Gray as a "bump in the road". Actually the more I think about it, Falwell's words speak volumes - many of these mega-church pastors view us "plebes" in their congregations as "obstacles" to be run around, thrown out, or just simply run over. We're all "bumps in the road". Problem is with the blogs and the truth coming out to everyone in these forums, as SG has found out the "bumps" are more like "brick walls".
tim said:
How can anyone state with certainty that the report will be complete on Jan 16? I am not sure that I completely understand that. Are they planning on reporting whether the investigation is complete or not?
****
Just exactly how long do you figure it takes to write:
" move along folks, nothing to see here"
4545 - I hope that it doesn't happen (really I don't), but what if after the DCS and the DA complete their investigations they decide to press charges against Steve Gaines for breaking the law?
What if it turns out that PW molested someone during the 6 months of silence?
Will you STILL support him and say he will be the pastor for many years to come?
friendinjax,
VERY WELL STATED!
I would like to encourage folks to email Ms Blaylock as well.
I was not there during the standing O two weeks ago and I will not stand for one in the future. I never thought that SG was the man for BBC and I don't believe he will be there for much longer (hoping anyway) Nothing personal, just my opinion.
truthseeker,
Thank you for taking a stand... or not!
Now that we know alot more about the committee members that brought Steve Gaines here, I am more convinced that he was not called, nor was he God's man.
Just wonder if God's man wasn't the committee's "type of guy"...
ema
Maybe Tim will reply to your question later but I think PW and ALSO MD have incriminating information that could come out if they are not dealt with to their satisfaction. Just a theory based on some other things I can't share.
Johnjaxthebaptist had a great idea when he suggested calling the news sources in Jacksonville....
How was the BBC Pastor's Search Committee chosen? I believe the bylaws at FBC Jax gave that authority to the Pastor, and Dr. Vines chose the committee, which I thought and still think it was a good committee. Problem was they operated in secrecy and didn't share much info with the church until they picked Mac Brunson.
NBCCOF said:
I realize you asked Tim his opinion, but I'd like to hear your take on it.
7:42 PM, January 04, 2007
****
NBCCOF,
My only take on it is that it's the most self-destructive decision I've ever seen anyone make. I just cannot wrap my mind around why anyone would risk all the things that seem to be so important to Gaines...the Bellevue pastorate, reputation, prestige, power, ambition, and the one thing that should have been the first consideration...the wrath of Almighty God, to cover for someone that he obviously didn't even care to keep on staff. He seemed to be trying to kick all of Dr. Rogers' former staff to the curb and he risked it all for this one man....why?? There has to be more to this and I seriously doubt the January 14 Internal Investigation will give us an answer.
friendinjax said:
"Must be just a coincidence, but did anyone notice that both Mac and Steve Gaines are on the same page with their sermons? They both have sermon series starting this Sunday entitled "New Beginnings"..."
Hi jax...this is not likely a coincidence. Most often, this is indicative of plagiarism. Pastors are offered the opportunity to purchase their sermons from Rick Warren. It is very common among the pastors of his network and there is also a copy cat group who 'model' after PD. These guys (SG, MB, and others) are probably 'joined at the hip' and probably why you see the strong defense system among them. They have the same 'purpose'. It is a very sad state.
Ed Young Jr. sells his sermons for 10 bucks a pop.
During one of the CC meetings Barnwell called Dr. Rogers a Benevolent dictator and said that things were a mess on Sunday mornings when Dr. Whitmire was there. He said all this while upholding Jamie's leadership. What low things to say about such dedicated leaders. I have no respect for Barnwell.
Needless to say I will NOT be at Bellevue Sunday. I cannot, in good concience attend Bellevue while Gaines is pastor. You talk about how sickening the standing Os are, I feel that just being there is showing support for his wicked ways. But of course, thats just how I feel.
friendinjax- That is NOT well stated. That is THE problem. A bunch of what if's. A bunch of half-truths and rumors. Why through out things like you did? Why?
A false leader always looks at decisions based on what's best for him. In Paul Williams case, Steve Gaines was busy with damage control 6 months ago. He was already knee deep trying to throw water on fires he had set earlier.
Craig Parker had resigned from Bellevue because of financial irregularities he had reported to Mark Dougharty. For whatever reason, Mark Dougharty ignored the concerns for months before Mr. Parker resigned.
Jim Whitmire had been kicked out as the best Minister of Music in the Southern Baptist Convention. All Steve Gaines could do was make up stories of his version of what went down.
A growing number of deacons, staff members, and Bellevue members were scratching their head over comments Steve Gaines was making in staff meetings, deacon meetings, and self serving sermons.
Steve Gaines had just hired John Caldwell’s son-in-law Bill Street, his future son-in-law Ryan Wingo, and good friend Kenny Hatley at salaries significantly higher than tenured staff.
It was found out that Bellevue had joined the Willow Creek Association with close ties to Rick Warren. Dr. Rogers never allowed Bellevue to join but Steve Gaines decided otherwise.
Randy Redd, David Powell, and other staff had left since Steve Gaines arrived. Other staff was on the verge of leaving or being asked to leave by Steve Gaines.
The last thing Steve Gaines could afford was to deal with Paul Williams at this time. He didn't have time for it and he didn't want another staff member (especially a staff member for 30+ years) to leave for fear of what it would look like for his ministry.
This is the Bill Clinton syndrome. A weak leader that is about to go under due to his own actions, can't afford to make the hard decisions required of a real leader. They are more concerned with personal gain and personal loss instead of "what's the right decision". They are also preoccupied with their own scandals to worry about other issues that require attention.
The decisions Steve Gaines has made since 9-11 of 2005 have created a situation that isn't pretty. If Steve Gaines decides to hold on to his $400,000+ package, he will continue to drag Bellevue Baptist Church in the mud for years to come.
I fear that next week isn't going to be pretty. I'm not sure if he knows something is coming down but for him to apologize again this Sunday tells me he's interested in making a preemptive strike before the DA's office speaks or before something else is going to come out.
Was it not just a few weeks ago the Communications Committee was disbanded because everything was fine? Apologies were once again offered by Steve Gaines to the church and it was said that this is the last time we're talking about this and it's time to move forward. Case Closed.
Evidently not, if we are going to hear from Steve Gaines again this Sunday. What about the official report by the Church investigation to be released on the 16th? Why will Steve Gaines not wait until after the 16th? Wake up folks. This Sunday is the signal that the wheels have fallen off the Cabbage Truck. There would be no other reason for Steve Gaines to address the church for yet another apology.
Like it or not, Barnwell knows as much or more than anyone. He deals with very important areas of the church and is responsible for them.
The next month or so is going to be very interesting.....
I want to see someone deal with PW.....not to be vindictive but to protect the children and integrity of BBC.
Don't feed the trolls! ;)
Piglet:
Thanks for your reply. I am from the segment of the Bellevue congregation that I call "The Disillusioned". We are the ones who were thrilled when Dr. Gaines was announced as our new pastor and blindly supported him up to the "light-bulb moment" (mine was Union City..what a grand time he had making fun of us gullible hicks at Bellevue!). Then, the second part of the one-two punch was the PW "moral failure"!
I am amazed every time I walk into that beloved worship center and see the mindless standing O's for him, all the attention on him and then listen to those self-serving sermons that seem orchestrated to "explain Steve Gaines" and to get the flock back in the pen.
How can God be glorified in one of those services? Any sermon that has to be prefaced or followed by apologies couldn't get past the rafters. My faith in God is stronger for having to go through this, but my trust in man is taking a real beating.
I love Bellevue, I'm not leaving, I'm not standing up with the "fans" and I'm getting deeper into my Bible. Jesus is really our pastor anyway.
Ultimately, I know the solution to all this will come from our Lord, who is in control.
oops..the link is to a blogpost about selling sermons.
allofgrace said...
"Ed Young Jr. sells his sermons for 10 bucks a pop."
And don't you wonder who he buys his from? :)
Mark Dougharty needs to come clean. He knows where all the bodies are buried. If he would do the right thing and come forward with all the truth, he could reestablish some of his credibility and upgrade his heavenly mansion. If he doesn't do this, I fear he will be standing in the center of the circular firing squad that is beginning to form inside the church.
Mark Dougharty, they're already talking about you. Don't let them cast you to the wolves. Deep down I believe you want to do the right thing and be remembered in an honorable way. Please stand up and tell the truth before they start shooting at you!
4545 said:
Like it or not, Barnwell knows as much or more than anyone. He deals with very important areas of the church and is responsible for them.
*******
And you know this HOW?
4545: I didn't throw them out there...I'm posing very possible outcomes to see how you would react to those, so I can further understand your position. My hypotheticals are not "far out" scenarios...they are possible.
swtt said- A false leader always looks at decisions based on what's best for him. In Paul Williams case, Steve Gaines was busy with damage control 6 months ago. He was already knee deep trying to throw water on fires he had set earlier.
REPLY- 90% of the stuff is pure junk and that is a fact. All the credit card stuff, junk and so on.
Craig Parker had resigned from Bellevue because of financial irregularities he had reported to Mark Dougharty. For whatever reason, Mark Dougharty ignored the concerns for months before Mr. Parker resigned.
REPLY- You need to get your facts straight about Craig Parker.
Jim Whitmire had been kicked out as the best Minister of Music in the Southern Baptist Convention. All Steve Gaines could do was make up stories of his version of what went down.
REPLY- It is not "his version". Many of us have said, including Dr. Gaines, that he made mistakes and messed up. He has said he is sorry.
A growing number of deacons, staff members, and Bellevue members were scratching their head over comments Steve Gaines was making in staff meetings, deacon meetings, and self serving sermons.
REPLY: And?? So what? Facts? What is your point here?
Steve Gaines had just hired John Caldwell’s son-in-law Bill Street, his future son-in-law Ryan Wingo, and good friend Kenny Hatley at salaries significantly higher than tenured staff.
REPLY- All new pastors bring in some of there own. Since you know, what are the facts on the salaries?
It was found out that Bellevue had joined the Willow Creek Association with close ties to Rick Warren. Dr. Rogers never allowed Bellevue to join but Steve Gaines decided otherwise.
REPLY- Are we listed as a member on their website?
Randy Redd, David Powell, and other staff had left since Steve Gaines arrived. Other staff was on the verge of leaving or being asked to leave by Steve Gaines.
REPLY- Again, so what. What is your point?
This is the Bill Clinton syndrome. A weak leader that is about to go under due to his own actions, can't afford to make the hard decisions required of a real leader. They are more concerned with personal gain and personal loss instead of "what's the right decision". They are also preoccupied with their own scandals to worry about other issues that require attention.
REPLY- wow
I fear that next week isn't going to be pretty. I'm not sure if he knows something is coming down but for him to apologize again this Sunday tells me he's interested in making a preemptive strike before the DA's office speaks or before something else is going to come out.
REPLY- Where did you hear this? Not saying it is not the case.
Was it not just a few weeks ago the Communications Committee was disbanded because everything was fine? Apologies were once again offered by Steve Gaines to the church and it was said that this is the last time we're talking about this and it's time to move forward. Case Closed.
REPLY- So now you are on him for talking about things when you have begged for it?
Evidently not, if we are going to hear from Steve Gaines again this Sunday. What about the official report by the Church investigation to be released on the 16th? Why will Steve Gaines not wait until after the 16th? Wake up folks. This Sunday is the signal that the wheels have fallen off the Cabbage Truck. There would be no other reason for Steve Gaines to address the church for yet another apology.
REPLY- I know that is your dream and the dream of many others and that is pathetic.
4545,
Are you Cheryl?
fedup- Because that is part of his job and has been for years.
mom4- Wow, I am not sure what you and others did before this hate filled blog.
I have sent an email to the news
channel in Jacksonville, Fl, asking for her help in exposing the fact that Max Brunson is going to be having as a speaker a man who gave cover to a pedophile. Surely that church doesn't need the spotlight on them at this time regarding that subject. I TRIED to send a letter to Max Brunson, and he chose to send me back a snotty, arrogant reply..so, Max...deal with the news media now.
In other news....
Regarding the post about Mark D.:
Mark, we know you brought that shredder in..under cover of darkness....what were you doing with it?
Just to let you know, I'm going to be calling the D. A. tomorrow to tell them of my conversation with David Coombs..and while i have them on the phone..i think i'll drop that little bit of information on them..about your shredder.
Ya know, Mark, they CAN subpoena your credit card records.
There you have it folks.
4545 validates everything on this blog each time he posts.
Good night to all. May the Lord give you a restful evening.
I love my church
LOVE the reference to the circular firing squad. That mental picture gives me the giggles.
ema
My husband and I were willing to wipe the slate clean after Gaines' first set of apologies. We had a "wait and see" attitude after that. We thought he was just not ready to fill such big shoes.
Then the Union City thing really showed us his true colors. After that we began to investigate the other issues.....
You've got a stronger stomach than I do, though. I haven't heard Gaines preach in a month. We went to GBC twice during the holidays (what a nice break)and before that we left after Sunday School and watched Dr. Rogers. I remember leaving Sunday School and standing at one of the doors to the sanctuary. We looked at eachother. "Do you want to go in?" my husband asked. I just couldn't make myself go in. It gives me the creeps to think about it.
4545 said:
fedup- Because that is part of his job and has been for years.
****
Im just curious as to how you know who does what at bbc. Sounds to me like you work there.
4545 said:
mom4- Wow, I am not sure what you and others did before this hate filled blog.
***
ok, 45...i'm gonna say this again to you...
When you respond to someone on the blog with criticism that THEY are on the blog, it makes me scratch my head...actually it makes me laugh AND scratch my head..
In order for you to post your comment, that means that YOU are on the blog, too...see how that works?
got it? ok, good.
thanks.
I'm hitting the hay as well.
The peace of our Lord be with each of you.
With you, too, 4545. Your loyalty is admirable, though misplaced. You must be sincere to come here and try to defend SG the way you do. I believe you will have your "light-bulb moment" and I dread that for you because it is painful. God bless.
P.S. I'm still curious about your age!
4545 said...
mom4- Wow, I am not sure what you and others did before this hate filled blog.
Why, I don't hate you. Just trying to figure out who to pray for:)
Really, You sound so much like Cheryl it is frightening. I always thought you were a she, but you may just be a young whippersnapper that needs to mature a bit.
But then, you could be Brenda - or Chip - naw, he is a he...
Nope, Cheryl it is:)
Frankly, if some of these folks are going to continually sing the "hate-filled blog" song, I wish they'd at least learn a new verse..that one's getting worn.
4545
Hate !show your proof,.
Ya'll are a hoot tonight. 45 has provided a bit of light humor which I needed.
Have a good evening and may the Lord bless your efforts.
g'nite all.
MOM4
fedup- Your posts are truly sad and scary. You are hurting the witness of Christ in so many ways. Now you are trying to cause pain to those at another church and in another city. You will be held accountable.
I thought the gay activists owned the rights to the word "hate".
Are the Gaines supporters paying royalties?
4545 here is agood example of hate on the blog
4545 said...
BR- So are you going to sit here and say that Dr. Rogers did not make tons of mistakes? He did, he made tons. Many things went on behind the scenes as they do everywhere. There were plenty of people not happy and treated "badly" over those many years. Talking about living with blinders on.
3:46 PM, January 02, 2007
Piglet:
I know exactly how your "at the door" feelings were.
From the time we joined Bellevue almost 8 years ago, I told my husband that when my feet touched the pavement in the parking lot, I could feel God's presence. Walking into the doors was like stepping into a comfortable, loving haven. We were all there, loving God, loving each other, letting the Holy Spirit fill us and bless us and that sanctuary was like stepping into God's arms.
Now, I approach the doors with apprehension wanting to hear that things are going to get better, but knowing in my heart that it's probably going to be more painful that the last time. I am in a position that I need to be there, people are counting on me and they've not let me down, my Pastor has.
I have continued to go to the worship service because I want to hear with my own ears if any change is taking place in SG's heart. It will show in his face and in his voice when it does. I cannot believe the Holy Spirit is not dealing with him.
So, I'll continue on until the Lord tells me it's time to leave. I have placed that decision squarely in His hands and I know He will give me the assurance if that time comes.
fedup- So one has to work there to know what is going on? So you are admitting that you have NO clue what you are talking about? Because you don't.
nthepew- Why did you not include what i said before and after and on others posts about Dr. Rogers? Why? Why??
imaresistor, you are totally forgiven about the book burning comment. See, I love old Nazi war films and that was just too close for comfort! :o)
To all: Here is a link to a sermon that will answer quite a few questions about why 'so and so' did 'this or that'. Seriously. This sermon explains sin
in a way that made me think of what you all facing. And, what I faced a while back in my scandal ridden former church.
Scroll down to Biblical Assurance PART 2. Pay close attention to what he says about continuous sin and our attitude toward sin. Wow, you hardly hear preaching like this anymore.
4545,
For your information...
To allow a man who has ADMITTED to providing cover for a pedophile to speak at a pastor's convention is BEYOND THE PALE. What does this say to the other pastors? I'll tell you what it says: It tells them that if they are faced with the situation..that there will be no reprocusssions, so they might as well cover their own skin insttead of choosing to protect a child.
Let me tell you what it says to a child that may be presently suffering from abuse: it says,
"dont' bother to tell..no one cares"
So you think that this hurts the witness of Christ? To protect our children from child predators?
Heaven help us. This should show the world just what kind of peple are supporting SG.
Br,
Neither do I-have respect for Barnwell I mean - he used BBC equipment to shoot videos for profit
Could you please expand on this? What exactly happened with this? Please give us more details...
4545: I truly am not understanding where you are coming from. Maybe this will help:
Suppose I agree with you, and that I believe Mac Brunson should definitely "support" SG (your words from an earlier post) and have SG down to preach at the Pastor's Conference. Then I find out some "nuts" are applying pressure to Mac to pull the plug on SG. Can you compose a letter to Mac explaining WHY he should have SG speak at the Pastor's Conference?
4545 said...
nthepew- Why did you not include what i said before and after and on others posts about Dr. Rogers? Why? Why??
10:27 PM, January 04, 2007
because that passage was all the example needed to show your anger(hate) towards Dr.Rogers ,I think it speaks for itaelf . I really don't understand why you turned your back on Dr.Rogers .
I hope and pray the "world" does not read your posts.
ema
I'm NOT faulting you at all for going to the service. I really wish that all of us were there and could have stayed seated while others were standing. So many have left Bellevue or don't go to the service.
is all so painful - we've sat under Dr. Rogers for 25 years.
My son has a letter that Dr. Rogers wrote him when he turned 13, about the responsibilities of becoming a godly man. When he died I had hopes Dr. Gaines would be someone I would want my kids to look up to. I have another son who will be turning 13 this year but I will not be asking Dr. Gaines for a letter as a gift to him. How sad.
I am also praying that God will deal with him...and others in leadership. I DO think that is what God is doing thru all of this.
AOG,
Today I was in Lifeway and noticed a "Lifeway Recommends" tag in front of two books on the Doctrines of Grace and the Reformation by James Montgomery Boice. Do you think they realize they are recommending books by a Satanic cultist?
That makes zero sense. Why did you not post the great things I said about Dr. Rogers and how much I loved him. I knew him and loved him greatly. I do not need to defend that to you or anyone else.
4545,
The feeling is mutual, dear.
Again, why are we not listed on the Willow Creek website as a member?
4545 said...
I hope and pray the "world" does not read your posts.
10:32 PM, January 04, 2007
4545
my posts condemns a pastor for hiding a molester from the church and I hope the world knows where I stand, you call that hate I call it standing for the children of the church
Piglet
I have a son that is 15 and very active in the youth group. Although we have been visiting GBC on Sunday mornings becuase we cannot stomach listening to SG, my son still enjoys wednesday nights.
I have agreed to let him continue to go to those for now, but ONLY if he PROMISES me that if SG is the speaker, he will call me to come and get him.
I do not want my son to think that SG is the face of integrity. That man is going to fall hard, and I do not want my son to have a ' crisis of faith' when he does.
The less exposure he has to SG, the better.
Piglet:
I am so touched by your comment about no letter for your 13 year old.
The only thing I can imagine being any worse than what my husband and I are going through during this crisis in our church is to be going through it with young children.
All ours are grown and none of them go to Bellevue. It's been difficult enough to explain to adult children what's going on. I cannot imagine what you parents of young ones are going through trying to comfort your kids.
I pray God gives you great wisdom and just the right words things to share with them.
God Bless you and your family.
4545 said...
That makes zero sense. Why did you not post the great things I said about Dr. Rogers and how much I loved him. I knew him and loved him greatly. I do not need to defend that to you or anyone else.
10:34 PM, January 04, 2007
You say you loved Dr.Rogers and then say how he treated people so badly and made tons of mistakes. Please don't admire me
westtnbarrister said...
"Today I was in Lifeway and noticed a "Lifeway Recommends" tag in front of two books on the Doctrines of Grace and the Reformation by James Montgomery Boice. Do you think they realize they are recommending books by a Satanic cultist?"
THANK YOU!!! THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! I have been trying desperately to bring this to the attention of your bloggers! Lifeway...the Southern Baptist Convention...the churches...they are ALL infiltrated with PDL, CGM, New Age, and the Emergent Movements! We, as lovers of Jesus Christ, have GOT to do something about it. Paul Proctor has been fighting this deligently as have other discernment ministries. Write him at Paul Proctor (upperroom@ bellsouth.net)or if that won't get you there go to www.newswithviews.com and look up Paul Proctor. He can educate you on Life and all the other Christian book stores, etc. Please join with those of us fighting this secular disease. Please.
4545- and yet ANOTHER Repost:
_______
4545 said...
“It is a fact that several others new of the PW deal. Some for more than 6 months.”
3:55 PM, January 02, 2007
and then:
4545 said...
“We will have the facts very soon.”
4:16 PM, January 02, 2007
_______
facts_only_please then said:
"4545- So which is it. You said that “it is a fact that several others new (knew) of the PW deal. Some for more than 6 months.” Then, 21 minutes later you said (typed) “we will have the facts very soon.”
If you have some facts, please state them. Thank you."
4:31 PM, January 02, 2007
_____
facts_only_please then said:
"Hello 4545-
Can you please provide some additional facts if you have them? We appreciate it."
11:13 PM, January 03, 2007
_______
Well…it looks like 4545 thought he/she had facts, and then he/she decided they didn’t. It has been in excess of 54 hours…and still no response.
So if I love someone, I am suppose to say they are perfect?
facts_only_please
Watch out .4545 is going to throw the "hate "word at you. tThgen she avoids answering the question.
fedup and ema
We tried to hide a lot of this from the kids for awhile I wasn't sure how this would affect them and I was afraid to deal with it.
Thankfully, we've talked about spiritual warfare and the armour in depth as they were growing up. They know this is an intense spiritual battle they are watching up close. We try to be transparent and explain as much as we can. They have alot more wisdom than some of our leaders. They have a lot of insight. I hope God will use this in their lives but I also hope they will once again have a godly pastor, one of integrity, whether it is at Bellevue or elsewhere.
They have great friends here but some fo their friends are at GBC so who knows...
Ha Ha! I know MUCH more about every detail and what is going than most. Think what you will.
Speaking of Ed Young. During my mega church 'PR' days, staff had to attend a conference at Ed Young's church. (He is known as the Ferrari pastor) It was like being in a parallel universe. It was like living on the set of the Ed Young show. Everything was Ed this and Ed that. They practically bowed to Ed. It was frightening. Their communicaton department makes Saatchi & Saatchi look like a B firm.
I am telling you, as I was exposed to these famous Mega's, I started questioning everything. I come from the corporate training world, as a corporate trainer, and it was the EXACT same stuff we used in companies packaged with Christian wrapping...no substance. (Lipstick on the pig as someone said)
This is happening all over the US because of GCM. Pastors who are very image conscious.
As one person told me during those days, referring to the pastor, and I am not kidding here: We are 'branding' him. We 'brand' our events and we 'brand' our church.
You will love this one. The pastor told staff to "Trust positive intentions". Uh....well...didn't Hitler think he had positive intentions? The LAST thing we should trust are 'intentions' because our hearts are deceitful!!!
OK, I need to stop. I am getting worked up and I need to sleep.
I don't publically criticize someone I love or abmire.
but then im not 4545
You have publically criticized many leaders at Bellevue and others. You are saying you do not love them?
Br,
It is self explanatory - Barnwell used BBC equipment for wedding and other events to earn extra money to pay for his kids to attend Briarcrest.
Huh? Where are you getting your information? Sure he gets paid for the weddings, but it's part of his job...it's an event within the church. Guess what else? The camera operators get paid too! Do you think they'll just let anyone touch their equipment? I don't think so.
And about his kids...where did you get that information? Jim has two daughters (which I won't post their names here...) One graduated from Cordova High and the other is a Senior at Bartlett High...
4545:
Reading and hearing someone's words through their writing is an interesting thing. You conjure up a picture in your mind of that person.
I picture you as being male, young...probably between 16 and 20, a really brainy type that could easily work for the "Geek Squad" at Best Buy(no malice intended) and enjoying every moment of the furor you cause every time to come to this blog.
Lots of us lurk and watch and don't always contribute. I've been watching you and you are enjoying your notoriety!
Tell me how far off I am.
br- If that is the case, you and everyone else on here have lied and MANY times at that. Most on here cannot cash anything they have said on here. They want to be apart and feel important and part of ruining Dr. Gaines and others. That is all. They have no facts and no real "inside" info.
cjesusnme
Igot your mail.
Check yours. :)
4545 - It is obvious that you work for SG and BBC so I don't blame you for wanting to protect your paycheck, benefits and career. I mean where else would you go to find a gig like the one you have at BBC at your age?
Why do you accuse fedup of involving another church? I asked fedup, and any other readers, to write my pastor. FriendinJax has done the same. Now you write: "fedup- Your posts are truly sad and scary. You are hurting the witness of Christ in so many ways. Now you are trying to cause pain to those at another church and in another city. You will be held accountable."
4545 - so far you seem to respond rationally to most charges. Why then, can't you see that people are not full of hate, and they are not "wrong" to voice their concerns about SG and BBC? If you wish to post facts that you know that the bloggers don't, then that is helpful. To criticize me for posting my concerns makes you lose credibility. When Bill Clinton had his scandals, and I voice my disapproval, his supporters sounded a lot like you. They believed the only reason I would dare complain about Bill's scandals is because I hated him or wanted him removed from office. No, I simply wanted him held accountable for his actions. The same for SG and those that have acted inappropriately in covering for him due to either blind loyalty, or personal gain. Do you think it is only us bloggers that will be held accountable? Certainly SG, PW and you will also be held accountable. Let this sink in when discussing people being held accountable: I WOULD RATHER BE THE BLOGGER UPSET AND CRITICAL OF THE MOLESTOR AND THE PASTOR THAT HID HIM, THEN BE THAT PASTOR, OR BE THE PERSON DEFENDING THAT PASTOR THE MOST VIGOROUSLY.
ema- I am sorry, but don't quit your full time job. You could not be more off.
Please go here:
http://www.fromthelighthouse.com/blog/index.php?p=122&more=1&c=1
This will tell you about Lifeway Bookstores selling these mystic, etc. books.
ha ha ha ha ha! Now I work at Bellevue? Protect my paycheck? WOW
Lindon - I know what you mean about the "branding" of churches...I noticed at our church that one of the very FIRST things Mac Brunson did as pastor was hand over the church website design to the "A Group" company in Nashville, which is very much into the "church branding" concept. The A Group also maintains the FBC Dallas website....
Go to this site:
http://www.theagrouponline.com/
The owner of the A Group is Maurilio Amorim, and at his website he discusses the church marketing and church branding concepts in several resource articles at his website.
ema,
LISTEN UP! NOT MEANING TO SHOUT BUT WHAT IS GOING TO BE SAID NEEDS SOME CAREFUL THOUGHT.
-----------------------------
If he had done something immediately it would have
1) Solidified his support at Bellevue,
2) Silenced his opposition and
3) Secured a SBC Presidency for him.
Steve Gaines was well aware of the potential political glory that could immediately be obtained by acting on this issue. It would have made him the hero of Bellevue. The "spin committee” knew that this was the goose that laid the proverbial golden egg.
However, there was a problem. There was some reason that it could not be done. There is a definite reason that it could not be acted on.
Even after the situation became public, he could not release Paul Williams. He had to be placed on paid leave.
Paul Williams was seen, immediately after being placed on leave, trotting about town, Christmas shopping, happy as a lark, without a worry in the world.
I want to refute the "heartfelt compassion" argument that was presented. I will virtually guarantee that Steve Gaines first thought when he was told about this was his own children. Had they ever at any time been alone with this man? There is not a parent on earth with a shred of decency that would not have immediately thought about that. I don't care how religious you might be. Following that thought would have been absolute and total disgust. So someone please tell me where "heartfelt compassion" became worked into this.
This leads me to this conclusion. There is something that is just as deep and heinous that has yet to be revealed. It may not be revealed in the churches official January 16th report. If it is not then I would wait to see what action is taken by the DA’s office, because there is no doubt that this puzzle is missing some pieces.
ema,
you could be on to something...becasue it is painfully obvious that 4545 has no concept whatsoever of child sexual abuse..it flies right over his head and he instantly dismisses it as only someone who is very immature would do.It's as though the sexual abuse aspect of all of this is just a footnote to him, and not a valid arguement to be held against SG.
He's bought the packaging of SG, hook, line and sinker. I'm sure SG wishes there were more 45's out there.
Br,
His children USED to attend Briarcrest.
What years did they go to Briarcrest? Please enlighten me.
I am talking about private, off site events..
Please quote your sources and where you're getting this information. And are you saying he takes Bellevue's stuff off campus to earn profit for himself?
br- Again, who cares?? The stuff you are bringing up shows where your heart is and how pathetic this is getting.
imaresister,
Lifeway is full of absolute junk, but my post about James Montgomery Boice was complete sarcasm. Based on everything I know, Dr. Boice was a fine reformed preacher of the gospel. He pastored Tenth Presbyterian in Philadelphia for many years before he passed away a few years ago. Someone on the blog referred to the "Satanic Cult" of Calvinism a few days ago, ergo my sarcastic remark.
But you are right about Lifeway, which was why I gasped when someone on the blog recommended BBC call Dr. Jimmy Draper to serve as an interim to help us right the ship. He was the Lifeway President until sometime in 2006, so I believe he bears a lot of responsibility for what we see at Lifeway.
Most Christian bookstores are an embarrassment to the gospel. You trip over all the trinkets, poorly written "Christian fiction" (which is a misnomer if there ever was one), stacks of psychology and self-help books, and a rack of the latest John Hagee end-times countdown book, before you actually find serious Bible study materials.
4545 said...
You have publically criticized many leaders at Bellevue and others. You are saying you do not love them?
10:52 PM, January 04, 2007
I hate their sins but I love the sinner.
You have have critized publically Dr Rogers without proof leaving what you say very questionable. I see no love in your action.
Ion the other hand have told the truth publically which you call being critical.
4545 said:
"ema- I am sorry, but don't quit your full time job. You could not be more off."
4545,
No full time job...no job at all..been there, done that...into enjoying life now.
And if I "could not be more off", then I know you an old gal, not brainy...but I still believe you enjoy the ruckus you cause.
Hmmmm...Ms. Billie's sister maybe???
Now, I'll leave you in the capable hands of these other nice folks.
Tim- Can you please be specific and tell what you are talking about?
Br,
ACE - I am tired and again, I am going to bed, if you have any more questions- please reread my post. I did not stutter. It is plainly stated.
Oh, alright then. You could have saved yourself a whole lot of time by writing "I don't know" or "I was wrong" - it's okay to admit that...really...
cjesusnme
More mail comin' at cha
It is clear that 4545 neither understands or cares about the risk of children in churches from sexual predators.
This is sad, isn't it?
As long as SG receives the glory that 45 feels is due him, all is right with the world.
Br,
Ace, you are goooood...but it ain't gettin it. I said the truth, now go do some homework and we'll chat tomorrow!
Since you have done your homework, why don't you just share with everyone else all of your findings?
Goodnight precious.
FedUp,
It is clear that 4545 neither understands or cares about the risk of children in churches from sexual predators.
Huh? 4545 never said that. You did. You made that up. You are something special, yah know that? You love putting words in other people's mouth and the other night I got in trouble for calling you pathetic so I won't do that now. I'll just leave it at that...you're something special...
And to our lovely blogmaster, I still don't understand why I can't call someone pathetic when they stoop so low in their posts and yet people on the anti-Gaines side can use terms much worse than what I said and they are applauded.
Could you please explain why other people can post stuff like that?
westtnbarrister
I remember when the Baptist Book Store changed its name to Lifeway. I didn't understand the name change and it really bothered me, that Baptist was removed from the name , but now looking back it was a forerunner of PDL.
westtnbarrister...said
"Most Christian bookstores are an embarrassment to the gospel."
Yes...but does anybody care. We need to boycott. We need to write letters. We need to email them and stay on top of it. Some of this has been done...and they go right back and stock their shelves with filth. I guess we either need to do something or shut up.
Tim said:
"If he had done something immediately it would have
1) Solidified his support at Bellevue,
2) Silenced his opposition and
3) Secured a SBC Presidency for him"
Tim,
You nailed it...that's exactly what's been driving me up the wall with wonder. SG could have been a hero for bringing this travesty to light, but he chose to look the other way and risk everything. Self-destructive behavior 101!
Thanks for your insight. The longer the truth is hidden the worse the lie gets. Perhaps we will be enlightened soon.
I have watched this site for several weeks now. I was a member of BBC in 1981. It was a wonderful experience for our family. What a privilege to sit under the preaching of Dr. Rogers. When he died, it was like losing a member of my own family.
Now I weep for BBC. Dr. Gaines needs to go. You will never make me believe Dr. Rogers knew about the situation with Paul W. We were at BBC when Dr. Rogers handled problems with staff. He would not have let it go on one day much less six months. No Dr. Rogers was not perfect but he was as many have said transparent.
I am shocked at how many who sat under the leadership of Dr. Rogers for many years can now turn blind eyes and deaf ears to what is going on. Several of those in leadership positions have proven themselves unworthy of the offices that they now hold and should step down as well.
I pray for BBC and know that this hasn't caught the Lord by surprise. I am glad that those of you who come here with sincere and right motives won't let a few discourage you in what you are doing. God bless you for the courage to take a stand. Dr. Rogers used to say about our children, "Teach them to stand alone". That is what many of you have done.
nthepew said...
"I remember when the Baptist Book Store changed its name to Lifeway. I didn't understand the name change and it really bothered me, that Baptist was removed from the name , but now looking back it was a forerunner of PDL."
You are so right. Oh man...this all just makes me ill. What are we going to do about all this? Is there anything we can do.
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