Here we read about a malady that seems to be affecting more and more pastors today, the "Man of God" Syndrome.
Channel 5's latest.
Sometimes you've just gotta laugh!
Thursday, January 18, 2007
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About Me
- New BBC Open Forum
- This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church and the SBC can come to comment and exchange ideas. Anonymous comments are welcome, but it is respectfully requested that instead of choosing the "Anonymous" option those who want to post comments without logging in select a unique screen name. This lets everyone tell the difference between one anon and another without revealing any personal information. Under the box where you compose your comment where it says "Choose an identity," just check "Name/URL" and type in the screen name of your choice. You can leave the URL field blank. It would be helpful if you'd use the same screen name for any subsequent comments. This makes reading and following discussions easier, helps avoid confusion, and doesn't result in one person being credited for writing something s/he didn't. Comments by posters whose only purpose is to disrupt (i.e. trolls) will be subject to deletion. Your cooperation will be appreciated.
439 comments:
1 – 200 of 439 Newer› Newest»Someone suggested near the end of the last thread that Jim Heywood (sic) repost the "Interview with Mark Sharpe" to see where it originated. That interview has been available in a link on this site from the beginning. (See "Mark Sharpe Interview Pt 2" and click on "Show Original Post" at the top of that page of comments.)
As for "where it originated," I think the poster's point was that it was Josh Manning who "interviewed" Mark Sharpe. I happen to know that "interview" was done in an online chat session with Mark Sharpe in Memphis and Josh Manning in Massachusetts. I don't think the two had even met at that time. I fail to see why who "interviewed" Mark Sharpe matters.
bepatient,
Thank you, but Charlie can post for himself.
NBBCOF
docbellevue- Your LONG detailed post on the fence jumping deal says it all. Can we move past the petty stuff PLEASE. Did they trespass, yes. MANY, if not all on this blog have trespassed in their lifetime. They meant nothing by it and were simply trying to talk to Mark Sharpe. Look at the pictures. It is not like they were hiding. The area is wide open for everyone to see. They were not trying to hide in anyway.
How many of you broke the speed limit today? Was the speed limit not posted? Why did you speed anyway?
Can we please move on and deal with serious issues.
Yeah, let's move past the petty stuff... like, uh, it's only one little fruit... and it looks good to eat too...
oh, or maybe not.
i love my church said- What is wrong with that comment? It is true. I don't know how he knows about the bags, but it is true. Docbellevue has to be someone else on staff.
REPLY-
1. How do you know?
2. Who cares?
3. We have PLENTY of money in the bank and coming in. PLENTY.
Trust me, we can afford plastic bags.
4545,
You missed the entire point of docbellevue's post on trespassing. His point was trespassing is not the real issue. Your post attempts to take away from the real issues about that incident. The real issue is deception and lies. Docbellevue hit the nail on the head.
Thank you Docbellevue for taking the time to walk us through that again. You cast it in a different light and reminded me it was more than jumping a fence.
They aren't buying more bags till April. Go ask for yourself tomorrow.
How do I know? I just do.
I know I know I know. Charlie Fox said I shouldn't feed the trolls.
Forgive me everyone.
They always put off things until April for different issues. They have for years in MANY different areas. Who cares?
Exactly, who cares? You brought it up. Docbellevue was responding to someone's comment about money. He made a side comment and you are jumping all over him for it. His comment was true. I suggest you drop it. You look ridiculous.
I care about the integrity and sincerity of the man who stands behind the pulpit proclaiming the Word of God.
THAT is why the fence jumping, dream sharing, amen hushing, deacon intimidating, and sheep fleecing is an issue.
TRUTH is truth. A half-truth is a lie.
aslansown said...
Financeguy-
What about your diet? Fall off the wagon?:)
Hi there, my name is Finance Guy, and I am a blog addict.
(Isn't that the first of the 12 steps?:))
LOL! Too funny, FG!
4545
How many of you broke the speed limit today? Was the speed limit not posted? Why did you speed anyway?
I had to pay a speeding ticket today. I should a told that officer that pulled me over to go enforce a real law, like tresspassing. Oh well. I told the clerk at 201 Poplar, "but 4545 would say that 7 miles over was "not a serious issue" Just like some itty bitty fence jumping". She said that 4545 was welcome to reimburse me the$137 i paid the City of Memphis.
The premise that "everybody does it, so what's the big deal" doesn't work. "Everybody jumps off bridges, so I'm going to jump off of one too. What's the big deal."
What about, "it's just a little cianide, everybody else just took theirs, you take yours too. What's the big deal?"
"It's just a little sin. You sin too. Don't condemn me for that hit-and-run accident, even though those people did die. You know that you drive sometimes too. I'm sure you've hit a curb before."
Nope. That is faulty logic.
memphismom02,
They are giving them out sparingly because they are running low. They are only to give them to someone with multiple items or to someone who asks.
This is a small issue. It is irrelevant and I am sure Docbellevue knows that. The fact remains that Docbellevue was correct about it. Maybe he works in the library? Maybe he orders the bags? Maybe he is one of the senior leaders who has flipped? Think about that possiblity won't you. The climate is changing. People are restless and eyes are being opened. More staff have come around in the last couple of weeks. It has been fun. I know of deacons who are finally asking the right questions because they realize things just do not add up. The leadership has now lost more than half the deacons. Docbellevue may be someone who got sick and tired of all the lies and decided it was time for him to do something about it. More people need to follow his lead. I hope he keeps on.
1) Everybody, 2) Karen, 3) Trollcates, 4) Nass
1) I'll stick up for Trollcates.
People should not be witnessing to Trollcates. He can't crucify Christ again. It grieves the Holy Spirit, imho. He is to be welcomed back as the prodigal he is. Rejoice that a scattered sheep has returned to the fold. He's still a little confused by his journey in the world away from the Body. He'll be okay.
2) Karen, God bless you for agreeing to meet Trollcates at church with your family.
3) Trollcates,
I emailed you my email address.
Joseph
4) Nass,
You've got mail.
Goodnight!
Partial Review for "A Tale of Three Kings" by Gene Edwards:
This book is must reading for every church leader. It is a study of the use and misuse of authority. In it, Edwards examines the lives of King Saul who demanded allegiance and held onto power at all cost; the life of King David who would not pursue power or hold onto it by force even when faced with rebellion; and David?s son, Absalom, the man who would become king by leading a rebellion.
The book was written especially to address the problem of submission and authority in the modern church. An underlying theme of this magnificent tale is that one cannot know for certain who are anointed by God and who are not; whom God has blessed and whom He as not. True leaders often make mistakes and pretenders to the crown can often look Godly; therefore, we should be very careful about passing judgment on our leaders.
These three simple stories convey more meaning and impact than a scholarly tome on authority. Edwards follows the example set by Jesus by telling simple stories to convey deep theological truths. His insight that leadership, even Godly leadership, is inherently flawed because God works through flawed people is excellent. Also worthy of note is the insight not to rush to judgment when condemning authority. The message needs to be heard in our impatient culture. Edwards notes that men who thought they were doing the will of God murdered both Jesus and Stephen.
Look it up on Amazon- just judging on the reviews, it seems to have a little bit for everyone here- responsibilities of authority and leadership as well as the responsibilities of the congregation.
Some say it is a little basic, but I thought it looked interesting.
Caveat:
It is one in the morning and I do not know anything about this man's theology... I found a link to his book on a reputable site, but that is all I know about him. I am too tired to look it up now.
Wasn't there some kind of "official" talking points memo the SS teachers were supposed to read to their classes this past Sunday morning? Did anyone's teacher read something like that? Was there any general discussion about "things" in anyone's class?
NASS
Nass, if you are referring to my suggestion then thank you for the link. I went to Jim's website and was unable to find the interview.
My question was not who did the interview, but what motivated Mark to start looking for faults in the pastor in the first place.
Mark said he developed a 'catch' in his spirit before anything else happened. I think that's very unusual, and possibly a sign of divine intervention. Granted, Mark has taught 'Experiencing God' several times and is surely much more in step with the Lord than me, but I had no catch in mine at that time. Did the 'catch' coincide with the time Paul Williams talked to the pastor in June?
My question as to where it originated was not the interview, but how the whole dispute originated. And no, it wasn't the dream or the fence.
BTW, what does the '(sic)' mean by Jim's name? Is he not feeling well?
concerned said:
Next: Do you remember the sermon that Bro. Steve preached and compared us to AL and Bear Bryant and told us to "TO GET OVER IT?" Another RED FLAG.
reply:
I'll never forget!!
Not only did SG say this
SG said this while AR was in ICU
taking his last breaths before going home...if my memory serves me correctly it was the sermon on Love Offering Sunday 2005...we were a hurting church family trying to adjust to a new preacher and grieving over the pain and sickness of our beloved shepherd AR! We needed love not uncalled for harshness...
...remember we had just watched AR wash the feet of the very man who said this!!
faithnhope
[sic] is a Latin word meaning thus or so and is used when quoting to indicate an error, often a spelling error, that was in the original being quoted.
In this case, Jim Heywood (sic) - it is used to indicate the writer knows that Heywood is an incorrect spelling but in the interest of accurate quoting, is typing the name the way it appeared in the post to which she is referring.
My question was not who did the interview, but what motivated Mark to start looking for faults in the pastor in the first place.
Mark wasn't looking for problems, he had staff members going to him about financial abuses. Enough of that and then the pastor's words and actions("I'm going to teach you to be a praying church, comparing AR to Bear Bryant, Jim Whitmire, etc) and you would have a "catch in your spirit" too. All that means is he knew there was something wrong. He was right.
Faithnhope,
Mark had already confronted SG before SG was aware of his PW problem. Mark began learning of the problem, as did many others, in the fall of '05, shortly after the pastor arrived. Dr. Rogers certainly knew there was a problem before he died. It was painfully obvious from the bginning. No one expected him to be Dr. Rogers. They did expect integrity.
His ego will be his downfall. His ego tells him he is in charge and things will be done his way, end of story. That attitude is what has kept him in trouble. His ego may even be why he did not fire PW in June.
Bepatient said...
Wow. I never imagined that someone in my own church would call me a Troll, Bully, disruptive, and negative. Esp. when I have done nothing of the sort. I guess you should just be thankful that I have a firm foundation to my faith. Because those are some pretty mean things to say to someone. God make me in his image just like you.
Reply:
This is twice, in the last two days, that you have made a comment similar to this. To my knowledge BEPATIENT has NOT been specifically named, at least I haven't included you in my posts. Me thinks that YOU see YOURSELF for what you are.
For the record - I didn't know who the heck Mark Sharpe was until way after "the fence jumping issue", but I was feeling just an ickyness in my spirit about the preaching, the music and just an overall uncomfortableness in my spirit where BBC was concerned. I had no idea about Mark Sharpe's struggle to address the issues he felt important - he'd been working on the issues with Richard Emerson way before I got involved. I went to the Bartlett meeting on my own accord and I've stayed connected due to my own research and the contiuned inaction of leadership to lead the church. Mark Sharpe may have gotten this whole thing started, but the people who have joined him have come from all walks of life, all colors, all neighborhoods around Memphis, etc. I'm saying all that to say YES it was divine intervention that brought a lot of this group together and I praise God for it. I've grown so much as a Christian this year - learning to not trust leadership just becasue they are a leader, learning that pride in BBC itself is wrong, etc. I've also gained some wonderful, real life friendships with people from this blog. I've also found out that people really do pray for me when I ask them to and that is an awesome feeling.
karen
faithnhope,
I can't be quiet any longer after reading your comment from 5:59. If you wrote what you believe in your heart, I see why we are in this mess. It upsets me as I read your carefully chosen words like "looking for faults".
I've see from the inside how Steve Gaines has operated from day one. His actions DID NOT go unnoticed by the ministers on staff. The ones who immediately knew something was wrong are mostly gone but there are a lot of guys still here that just can't be vocal for fear of loosing their job. Is it impossible SG's is wrong? Mark Sharpe never went looking for faults in the pastor. I know of 5 staff members who went to him with their concerns. Perhaps Mark was one of the few men they could trust to not get rid of them. When Mark went to the leadership with these concerns, he was himself immediately vilified. This man who had served Bellevue faithfully all of these years was immediately thrown out with the trash. I've heard with my own ears Steve Gaines unmercifully lie about the events surrounding Mark Sharpe. God Bless Mark Sharpe for the courage to stand when nobody else would. It's interesting to see the split in the staff. The ones I see supporting Steve Gaines are not interested in finding the truth. If they were, they would seek the truth by hearing both sides. We've been in cover-up mode inside Bellevue since September of 2005. I can never remember a time when the atmosphere has been like this. The "catch" in the spirit phrase you use I've not heard before but I've heard Mark and many others say they had a "check" in their spirit about Steve Gaines for a long time. I had a check in my spirit about Steve Gaines the first couple of weeks I heard his sermons. I'll have more to say later after the report on PW comes out.
I just called WPXX and BBC's broadcast is MOVING off of ABC24 to that channel! I specifically asked are they moving from ABC to your channel and the lady said yes they'll only be on channel 50.
Wpxx Tv 50
3145 Bartlett Corporate D, Memphis, TN 38103
(901) 384-9324
Ace,
Can you please explain to me how you were so sure of yourself last night? I gave you the courtesy of believing what you told me. I also know to verify these things now a days.
Dear Karen and InsideBellevue: A crisis likes this causes us to search and study more, rely on God more, and take a stand......I admire you both for addressing that knot in your stomach when you knew something wasn't right. We need to trust those nudges, don't we? I have been blessed by (most of) the folks on this blog as they seek the TRUTH and I wish you both God's blessing.
JU: You go! Now, we have the Truth....another strike against falsehoods. Thanks for going directly to the source.
And now AOG and I are friends - isn't God good even in the midst of chaos.
I refer back to the little plaque I got for Christmas: Sometimes God calms the raging storm; sometimes God lets the storm rage and calms His child.
karen
Insidebellevue,
Thank you for addressing the "check" in the spirit versus the "catch". I've had a lot of catches in my lifetime, but none of them were in my spirit. :) I also had a "check" even though I didn't know how to describe it until I heard others describing the same exact thing happening in them.
New bbc open forum,
Thank you for putting up the links to those articles at the beginning of this new thread. Everyone really needs to read them. You may be comforted by reading them. The one which had such a wonderful, biblical explanation about the "anointed" and the "man of God" was an eye-opener.
Dee
I feel like Ace, with all the words you are putting in MY mouth.
charis said- TRUTH is truth. A half-truth is a lie.
REPLY- I agree and that means there are TONS of lies on the blog every single day.
Dear Brother/Sister 4545: You still owe someone a sincere apology. You really hurt a wounded sister. She has been through so much.
I am asking you once again as a fellow saint to do it. If you have forgotten what it was all about, please go back and check the last thread.
This time do not qualify your apology. Saying you are sorry is not all of it according to Scripture. You must also ask for forgiveness.
Will you please make this wrong right?
I am sorry if I hurt her or anyone else in anyway.
4545: You just qualified it again. Why can't you follow Scripture?
I am not going to let you pass.
Bloggers except David Brown,
ACE & 4545 post for one purpose and one purpose only. Their sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding them, they will continue to play their game. If you ignore them, then they will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into the TROLL's hands by playing their game. I know that it is hard to resist taking their BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION
4545: I will stand in your corner and praise you for stepping up and doing what God commands us to do. It is not that hard. Just do it.
God knows my heart and you do not. You seem to LOVE power. Please move on.
4545,
Please leave out the "IF" word.
Yes, Charlie, please continue focus on the half-truths, lies, rumors, etc, that is where your mind should be.
THAT is the problem. You and others seem to be focused on this blog and not on Christ. Many are consumed by this stuff. It has taken over your lives.
You need to focus all right, but not on this garbage.
Hello all,
I have been reading since early Dec., when a friend emailed this site to me. We had begun reading because of some issues within our own church. I've continued to read & listen and learn. I've drawn comfort & knowledge.
Concernedsbcer said
Dear Karen and InsideBellevue: A crisis likes this causes us to search and study more, rely on God more, and take a stand......I admire you both for addressing that knot in your stomach when you knew something wasn't right. We need to trust those nudges, don't we? I have been blessed by (most of) the folks on this blog as they seek the TRUTH and I wish you both God's blessing.
I echo what concerned said because this has made me search & study things within my own church.
My family has attended Bellevue over the years with friends, one daughter made a profession of faith there. The lack of truth and integrity crosses many boundries. The bottom line to any of what I've disagreed with in my own church, still comes to truth.
Sorry this is so long. Just wanted you to know that I pray with and for you all.
4545: No power has nothing to do with it. Following God' Word does though. You hurt a fellow sister and you refuse to follow Scripture when called out on it. You are so quick to challenge others and call them out when you disagree but when you are called out you back up.
Now you tell me to move one. That is one thing that is NOT going to happen. Trust me. You nor anyone else can do or say anything to me that would be more worse than what that priest did to me in 1961. So I don't think I will be moving on.
You sit there an post anonymously. How nice. Let me make it clear to you once again. Two nights ago you tried to lump me into all this other mess with Dr. Gaines. I told you then, my only issue is with truth and transparecny when it comes to child abuse. There is nothing about power in that, just protecting the innocent. I do not care anything about this other stuff, ok?
So I think I will stay right here and anytime I see you posting I will continue to ask to you why you won't say you are sorry.
caring4u: I too feel a part of Bellevue because of my long-term association and what is happening here at Bellevue is, unfortunately, happening all over. Study, pray, discern......remember the WHOLE character of God, not just the "warm, fuzzy" side. Take care, keep informed and search for the TRUTH. Integrity is the key.
I'm off to the doctor - play nice!
Karen
JHMO-
When Steve Gaines mistreated Jim Whitmire, the people who knew about it really took notice. The whole scenerio was unkind and equally unwise.
Like many others, I was thrilled that Steve Gaines came to Bellevue. The happiness was short lived. By the first of the year, I was asking God to show me what was wrong at church, and how to react to the discord that was starting to appear.
One day in early Spring, two different people came to my home "for coffee." This was not the norm.
The first visitor told me of a situation in her former church when it "went over to Warrenism." I had no idea what she was talking about. As soon as she left, I ran to the computer and Googled "Rick Warren."
While the hair was still standing up on my head, a second friend came to the door. I had been pet sitting for them while they were out of town. They were just returning from a church growth conference. I told them what I had just read about Rick Warren. You can imagine the rest of the conversation.
IMHO, God answered my prayer that day. I did not know of Mark Sharpe, Jim Haywood, or anyone else. I just started trying to find information to give to my friends.
charlie:
check hecanhear's post from 6:43 yesterday (previous thread). I feel safe in saying "others like him" refers to me since he/she quoted something I said and Memphis, Ace, 4545 and share most of the same views as I do. Sometimes my name makes it on the list and sometimes it doesn't... but it is clear they were referring to those who disagree.
And it clearly stated we were trolls, bullies, disruptive, and negative.
www.jesusdotcalm and concerned,
I just wanted to also add my "yea" to being able to remember the SG sermon you mention and feeling from within that "red flag".
There have been more than just a couple of these "red flags" for me. I recall also the day SG announced Jim Whitmire's retirement. He told the date and said that Jim had agreed to finish the Singing Christmas Tree, and after that he didn't care what he did. I thought to myself, "Either you are being very rude and somewhat hostile" OR "You sure weren't brought up to have any manners." Then, I thought how this man was going to be OUR representative from now on. Then, as I sat there I confessed how I was thinking to the Lord. Then, I prayed for Dr. Gaines. For months following, I continued to pray as I had done that day. The check in my spirit continued and was accentuated every single time I attended services where Dr. Gaines preached. The "checks" were more serious than sad, but, they did resemble a sadness of spirit.
Please, do not confuse these "checks" with sadness over the retiring of Dr. Rogers or a change in music style. Dr. Gaines was our first choice as Dr. Rogers' replacement. I even wrote letters to Dr. Rogers and to the Search Committee to say so. I enjoyed Jamie Parker's style, too, even when he was with BBC before. The mix of his music with Jim Whitmire's music was fine. Back then,even the 98-year-old man who sat by me liked Jamie's music, too. We liked it all! Strongarm tactics do not set well with me, though. Crudeness and rudeness are unbecoming to a pastor. A pastor should be loving and kind towards his congregation. There is now a hardness and a coldness that is unmistakably present in our leadership. I have heard several others on these blogs say that our pastor does not love us. That would be how I would also describe part of the "check".
The Lord put the "check" in me; I have no doubt of that. When I continued to pray and to try to go on at BBC as I have for some 28 years now, the intensity of the "check" became worse. Then, I began to feel almost a grief. Then, I stopped going to the services and started watching LWF on Sunday mornings. I cried and cried over the whole situation. I prayed and prayed over it. This whole time I either mailed or hand-delivered our tithe to the church--without fail. The "check" continued. Then, the strangest of all things happened. Our money stopped. The same week--the VERY SAME week--the newspaper story came out where Mark Sharpe had called for Dr. Gaines' resignation. I had known absolutely nothing about anyone else having also had "checks" in their spirit nor was I aware of ANY other negative thing going on behind the scenes at our church. I thought it was just me. I wondered if the Lord was actually trying to guide my path with the money situation. The next tithing period we did not give to Bellevue. We began to send the tithe to LWF and other ministries. We had no more "money" issues; in fact, our money began to accumulate (not in piles, but in amounts larger than what we had been experiencing prior to the checks in the spirit). I am telling you, the Lord has given me great peace about this. I know I am "where" He wants me to be with this, and I have peace in my heart even though trouble is all around us at the church. Jesus is Lord! I will walk through fire if He is with me.
Sorry this is so long. I did not mean to tell this whole thing, but I guess it was supposed to be that way. Everyone, have a blessed day!
Dee
Put your money where your mouth is. All of you. This blog and many on it are not following God's Word, but you are going to hold my feet to the fire for everything I say.
What was wrong with the way I said I was sorry according to scripture?
I am sorry!
Father in Heaven,
Thank you for this online community/"ministry" (Wtb/Aog's word) and all the people who come here to lurk and/or post. I pray that you will bring out the truth and it will be done in love and in peace. Lord you say that when we ask you, you will grant us the desires we ask for.
Lord let our first concern be that you be loved and glorified and worshipped by every creature in creation and the stars and even the rocks call out your name. Lord let our obedience to your laws and your Son be the highest form of worship.
Lord, as worship to you let us confess our sins unashamed knowing your Son has paid the eternal penalties and being willing to take on the temporal penalties. This honors you.
Lord, as worship, let us forgive those who have hurt us either by things they have done or words they have said. Let them forgive us for our words and actions. None of us knows what the true desires were behind any of these sins and some may not even have been intentional or even sinful in intent. Let us not imagine the worst, but hope for the best with true and pure hearts. Let forgiveness occur quickly, as the Christian's first reaction to perceived wrongs.
Then (and only then, after worshiping you) let us love our neighbors as ourselves. Let us not seek gain over our adversaries but if a man asks us for outer garment, let us even give him our inner garmement. If he asks as to go one mile, let us go two.
Lord, let us not forget the many victims of child abuse, rape, and molestation, whether within the body of Christ or without. Help the government to do its job of separating people who do these things from society. Please bring healing to the victims. Help them to turn to their faith in you or accept your Son for the first time. Help the criminals, even in prison to turn to you in confession. Help us to take the Word to the victims and to the guilty. Your word is the answer to everyone in all times and all places. Whether to lead the guilty to genuine change or the victims to genuine healing.
In Jesus's name,
AMEN.
Day 19: Exodus 7-9
American English translation ("NIV")
King James
Please pray a Great Commission prayer for today's nation of the day: Belgium
bepatient,
As I stated yesterday, I have absolutely no problem with those that have opposing views or those opposing views being posted. That is healthy debate. My problem is with posters like ACE, & 4545, whose sole purpose in posting is to be antagonistic and disruptive. PLAIN & SIMPLE.
These are some "red flags" that went up at Bellevue that caused some people to be unhappy. These can in no way be blamed on anyone but the staff.
1. Long time church members began to be treated with disrespect and their positions terminated.
2. There was a "like it or leave it" attitude that came with the many changes.
3. Concerns began to arise about church governace because of decisions that were made from the 'inner circle' with no voice from the church.
4. Concerns about the integrity of church finances began to filter out like smoke rolling under a door.
For years we sang, "I am so glad I'm a Part of the Family of God." We were a familly. Did the church staff not expect trouble when they mistreated our fellow family members? Did they expect us to accept the iron-fisted rule after so many years of respectful interaction with church staff? Did they expect us to sit quietly as the treasures were carried out of God's house?
I don't think so. JMHO
And my point is, like it or not, they have rights just like you. I think it is rude and disrespectful that you continue to post that comment about ACE. I think it is disruptive, but I am not asking everyone to stop talking to you and I am not telling you to stop. And, in that last post of mine you referenced, I was not referring to you anyway, but comments that have been made repeatedly that ALL the opposing view posts should be deleted.
4545: I am beginning to think I am wasting my time with you. I am not trying to hold your feet to the fire but for ONE thing and one thing ONLY. I am not asking you to apologize for everything. Why do you keep trying to drag all this other stuff in?
You know what I am talking about. In case your forgot, it was your responses to "gmommylv" on Wednesday night.
If you want to know how to say your sorry according to Scriptures, let me give you this lesson from my notes of one of Dr. Rogers sermons. This is how you would do it: "Gmommylv, I am sorry that I hurt and offended you, would you please forgive me?"
Notice there are no exclamation points. Just a simple heartfelt apology. Saying you are sorry is not enough, you must ask for forgiveness too.
I mostly "lurk" on the blog; however, I thought I would add my perspective to the "checks" people have had in their spirits.
I too had a check almost from the beginning, although Bro. Steve one of my "finalists."
I felt almost from the start that we were not good enough for him and that he was like a father who was "embarassed" of his children. I felt as though through the things he said and did that he was trying to "remold" and "remake" us to the kind of church he wanted.
When he preached a sermon from 1 Kings on the Elijah repairing the altar that the prophets of Baal had broken and calling fire from heaven, I'll never forget his comments. He told us as he "explained" to us about the way we were now doing "music" in the service that he wasn't talking about doing things new and different. He said he was talking about "repairing the altar that had been broken." That's when I realized that he really did think we were worshipping at a "broken altar" and he was there to repair it for us.
I had been at Bellevue for over 32 years at the time and never did I feel as though I was worshipping at a broken altar!
I don't have the time to read posts regularly, but after a five minute scan of the ones in this thread I will make some observations.
1. MS is extremely hospitability (first hand knowledge) and would never think a thing in the world of having friends call on him.
2. The fence issue is so petty and only represents the motives of the visit, which is a REAL issue!
3. Communication had been made with MS regularly prior to the visit...through weekly calls asking him if he had joined another church yet.
4. The sole motivating factor for the visit was to stop the off-campus meeting planned for later that week, should anyone not realize that they are not being honest with themselves.
5. The attempted visit is and was symptomatic of the issues MS had a check in his spirit about well before there was a dream reported by MD.
6. There are very few core issues worthy of discussion and necessary, and the motivation of the behavior displayed at the fence jumping is one of them. Once again, not the fence jumping, but the method of the visit and motivation behind the visit.
clarification: I think they knew there would be trouble. JHMO
4545: One last point. What do you mean by "put your money where your mouth is?" What has that statement got to do with anything I have asked of you? That sounds so juvenile.
Trust me my brother/sister I have had to seek forgiveness many times during my lifetime. It is not easy to do that but those times I have, I have been so blessed and relieved.
I am going to cut you some slack as I have to be away from the computer for awhile. I hope and pray you do the right thing. If you want to talk to me about it, my phone number is on my profile as well as my email address. Both are real addresses not some "made-up" identity. I hope you will call me. I am not the bad guy here. I would like to visit with you.
faithnhope wrote:
"BTW, what does the '(sic)' mean by Jim's name? Is he not feeling well?"
I can't believe I'm responding to this, but "sic" is "used to indicate that a quoted passage, especially one containing an error or unconventional spelling, has been retained in its original form or written intentionally." You misspelled Mr. Haywood's name, and I was quoting you, so I used "sic" after you spelled it "Heywood." It wasn't a commentary on Jim's health. If it were, I would have to have written it (sic)(sic). As far as I know Jim's in fine health. :-)
NASS
Bepatient,
You have mail.
Your attention, please.
I quote Nass thusly, and like so: "This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church can come to comment and exchange ideas in a respectful, Christian spirit."
Except, apparently, when they disagree with the "regulars." Then your group's members routinely encourage one another to ignore them, and to brand them as "trolls" or other such nonsense. You presume to know their hearts and discern their motivations, and then proceed to either talk down to them or ignore them entirely.
I encourage you all to take the above-referenced quote seriously. In case you haven't noticed, others watch what you do here; let the words you write and the ideas you advance here be as thoughtful and considerate as the ways you act and speak in person.
We're approaching a deadly serious time in the life of our church. If you aren't equipped to meet the challenges ahead with compassion, clarity and maturity, you still have time to make the necessary adjustments.
Don't waste that time.
Please.
--Mike
Great post, Mike.
4545 wrote:
"What was wrong with the way I said I was sorry according to scripture?
"I am sorry!"
That sounds a lot like the report of SG's first "apology" to the Whitmires. Saying the words "I'm sorry" doesn't necessarily constitute an apology.
NASS
Ju,
I just called WPXX and BBC's broadcast is MOVING off of ABC24 to that channel! I specifically asked are they moving from ABC to your channel and the lady said yes they'll only be on channel 50.
Don't listen to that lady, she doesn't know what she's talking about. You probably talked to a receptionist who doesn't know anything. Instead, tune on your TV to channel 24 this Sunday at 8am. Then at 9am, flip over to channel 50.
Can you please explain to me how you were so sure of yourself last night? I gave you the courtesy of believing what you told me. I also know to verify these things now a days.
I was so sure of myself yesterday because I was right...it's as simple as that. You did not verify anything, but you helped resurface a rumor that should have been laid to rest already. That's probably not all your fault, though, as the Channel 50 lady is to blame too.
doc,
will reply soon, when I have some time to sit down and do it right....
thanks.
Ace,
So maybe this Sunday isn't when their moving but I specifically asked if they were moving off ABC24 and she said yes. So why don't you call channel 50 and see if you get a different answer? At this point I have to believe the people that work at the station and not your conjecture. Unless you happen to be on staff at BBC and could tell us who you are so we could put more weight to your position?
Your attention, please.
I STRONGLY encourage those that have OPPOSING VIEWS to post on this forum. True debate is HEALTHY.
However, I just as STRONGLY urge those, such as ACE and DEACON 4545, whose sole purpose in posting is to be antagonistic and disruptive, not to attempt to detract with their antagonistic posts. Should they do so, which is their right, I STRONGLY urge posters on BOTH sides not to respond to those types of antagonistic posts that serve NO CONSTRUCTIVE PURPOSE, but attempt to detract from the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.
Charlie and others,
I know that many of you think Ace's sole purpose here is to antagonize us. He has his moments. He also has had his moments where he has provided valuable information. I am attempting to ascertain in this conversation his veracity and bonifides if you will. I would very much appreciate you not posting that over and over again especially when I'm attempting to have a conversation with Ace on an issue that is very important in my mind. If as channel 50 has told me this morning BBC moves off of the ABC24 station that is carried by our local cable company it will definitely hurt the cause of Christ. It is worthy of discussion. Thank you.
No matter what is taking place internally or in the news I think that broadcast does help spread God's word to the city of Memphis. If it moves off cable that viewership will be much much lower. I see it as a bad thing overall.
Ju,
So maybe this Sunday isn't when their moving but I specifically asked if they were moving off ABC24 and she said yes. So why don't you call channel 50 and see if you get a different answer? At this point I have to believe
I just called Channel 50 and the programming staff was out to lunch. I asked the receptionist about BBC on Sunday and she said it starts this Sunday and ABC24 will NOT air BBC this Sunday. This information is wrong
I asked if there's even a 5% chance that BBC would air on ABC24 this Sunday and she said there was a 100% chance it was NOT going to run. This information is wrong
When you call Channel 50, WPXX, you are talking to a receptionist who in reality knows absolutely nothing, or something to a VERY minimum.
I called Channel 24 and the receptionist knew nothing about BBC "moving", the programming director knew nothing about it and I left a message for the sales director and I should get a returned phone call soon and I will report what he said here once I hear back from him.
You need to take my word on this issue. If I am wrong, then there goes my credibility. If I am right, however, some people here will need to issue an apology to me. We will know in less than 2 days now. I can assure you, though, I am absolutely, positively right. Beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Ju,
I know that many of you think Ace's sole purpose here is to antagonize us. He has his moments. He also has had his moments where he has provided valuable information
Thank you for this post. It's great to know all who disagree with my views don't view me as a troll. Thank you!
another rhetorical question
What difference does it make what station Bellevue's local broadcast airs on in the context of these more important issues.
You have let the thread get hijacked by trolls again. Give it up!
More info: http://www.bellevue.org/templates/cusbellevue1103/details.asp?id=1360&PID=416850&Style=
By the way - ABC24 isn't a cable network, ju...it's one that everyone gets regardless of if you subscribe to cable or not. Everyone in Memphis should be able to see ABC24 and everyone in Memphis should be able to see WPXX Channel 50.
Ace,
You are welcome. I don't want them to leave ABC24 so if it turns out they aren't it is a really good thing in my mind. Hopefully, it does turn out like that.
Ace said...
You need to take my word on this issue. If I am wrong, then there goes my credibility. If I am right, however, some people here will need to issue an apology to me. We will know in less than 2 days now. I can assure you, though, I am absolutely, positively right. Beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Reply:
Jim,
I, for one, can certainly wait two days.
FinanceGuy,
You have let the thread get hijacked by trolls again. Give it up!
Ouch. You just called one of your own a troll, who was the one who originally brought up the issue.
I am just getting rid of the rumors, that's all. An apology is in order. Oh wait, you're financeguy...you don't apologize because it hurts your pride. It's okay - I understand and hopefully everyone else here does too.
Finance,
ABC24 is broadcast on our local cable systems as well as over the air. Channel50 is not. Channel 50 is mostly an over the air channel. I do believe they have applied for their digital license and might be an offering on satellite systems. I haven't watched an over the air channel in a decade. The only way to get channel 50. It is of vital import in my mind that that television ministry remain on the medium that gives it the largest audience. Wouldn't you agree that is important and any change or reduction in the ability to minister to those people is bad and should be discussed?
Dee
Thanks for your post at 10:49 AM, January 19, 2007. Please keep posting.
Doc Bellevue
Consider a post about the Holy Land trip scam.
ILoveBBC,
I'm pretty sure you're correct.
IloveBBC,
Oops it looks like channel 12 is indeed wpxx which should be channel 50. If that's the case then it's all a big deal over nothing. As long as the broadcast is still on the cable system I'm no longer worried. Thanks for guiding me in the right direction!
Do Tim Whitehorn and David Perdue have anything to do with Channel 50?
In the interest of saving space, I have linked to this article and deleted the original long post.
Psalm 43:3 said...
Interesting article today from the Associated Baptist Press:
Missouri Baptist pastor sentenced to 20 years for child sex-abuse
By Hannah Elliott
Published January 18, 2007
Reminder: There's a link in the sidebar on the front page of this blog with instructions for putting a link in a comment.
NBBCOF
docbellevue
Did you get my email?
Thanks for the help with the link. The article hits too close to home.
EZ,
What an interesting post. I notice Peter is quoting Joel out of OT in Acts 2:17-21. Can you help me put this quote in context?
EZ,
I see AOG has done this nicely.
Cheers
Charlie Fox said...
...
I STRONGLY encourage those that have OPPOSING VIEWS to post on this forum. True debate is HEALTHY.
And would you agree, Charlie, that absence of debate--or aversion to it--is unhealthy?
However, I just as STRONGLY urge those, such as ACE and DEACON 4545, whose sole purpose in posting is to be antagonistic and disruptive,
And you know the purpose of their hearts how, exactly?
not to attempt to detract with their antagonistic posts.
So you're all for debate--as long as it's with someone with whom you agree?
Charlie, the idea must be for everyone involved in the discussion to orient themselves to a path of compassion and reconciliation. Calling people names, talking down to them (or not talking to them at all), and judging their hearts has no place in the discussion.
Regardless of your viewpoint.
Take the high road, or don't make the trip.
--Mike
Is it true that Dave Perdue is still after MS job at MABTS. Does anyone have any information regarding this? What can we do to support MS?
Has anyone else considered that WPXX Channel 50 shares a building with Impact Logistics, which is run by Wayne VanderSteeg and David Hamilton.
I smell another conspiracy...
AOG,
You run circles around me - I was fortunate to have the text open.
Have a great day - I am off line.
To all - I am checking back in from FBC Jacksonville to see if anything is new with your situation at BBC. It looks like nothing new has come out over the past few weeks. (Why the thousands of posts then, I wonder?)
Anyway, has anyone taken 30 seconds to email my pastor, MAC BRUNSON, to let him know he should not be giving the pulpit to SG during this investigation, in front of 6000 pastors and some of the top leaders of the SBC? I understand he may not reply to anonymous emails, but if you type "Please Drop Steve Gaines from Pastors Conference", at least he will get the message as he hits the delete key. :)
Bye for now, but I want you to know I am truly saddened by all of this BBC is going through. But for the grace of God, and the arrogance of SG, would go FBC Jax. MAC BRUNSON is in a similar situation as SG, but does not seem to be as arrogant as SG and certainly would not be mobilizing his deacons and staff to try and intimidate and silence any members who have legitimate questions about his leadership decisions. Or would he...? I mean, he may be giving SG advice as far as we know, and by having SG speak, might be aligning himself dangerously close with SG.
Oh well, if he heads down that road, the domain SAVEFBCJAX is still available!
I would like to ask this question again, since no one answered the first time.
What is the members only blog on the savingbellevue.com front page?
Is it BBC members only or what?
Father in Heaven,
Please help Dr. Gaines to stop being mad at Dr. Spradlin. Someone has asked how to support Dr. Spradlin. Father please hear this request. Please help Dr. Gaines to stop being mad at Dr. Spradlin. Please bring us peace. Bring us revival. Fill us with your Holy Spirit. I wish I could have been there to see Pentecost Day ~2000 years ago.
In Jesus's name,
AMEN
Father,
Please help us to stop "losing sleep" over other people's dreams.
In Jesus's name I pray,
AMEN.
Father in Heaven,
Please help Dr. Spradlin to stop being worried about financial matters from BBC. He is very worried that Dr. Gaines is trying to get him kicked out of a job. Please help Dr. Spradlin to stop worrying about this. Help Dr. Spardlin to trust in your Son over this key issue.
In Jesus's name,
AMEN.
Father in Heaven,
Please continue to bless Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary. They are our hope. They are the best seminary that I know of.
Please continue to bless Dr. Spradlin. He is the best Seminary president I have ever met.
In Jesus's name,
AMEN.
Father in Heaven,
So many of us have been sincerely seeking your will for months. Please pour out your Holy Spirit on the Body of Christ. Wash away the mud...
In Jesus's name I pray,
AMEN.
Mike Bratton said...
Charlie Fox said...
...
I STRONGLY encourage those that have OPPOSING VIEWS to post on this forum. True debate is HEALTHY.
And would you agree, Charlie, that absence of debate--or aversion to it--is unhealthy?
REPLY: ABSOLUTELY
However, I just as STRONGLY urge those, such as ACE and DEACON 4545, whose sole purpose in posting is to be antagonistic and disruptive,
And you know the purpose of their hearts how, exactly?
REPLY: I do NOT KNOW the purpose of their hearts, but I DO KNOW the CONTEXT and PURPOSE of their POSTS.
not to attempt to detract with their antagonistic posts.
So you're all for debate--as long as it's with someone with whom you agree?
REPLY: ABSOLUTELY, I am for TRUE DEBATE, but not purposeful antagonism and diversion.
Charlie, the idea must be for everyone involved in the discussion to orient themselves to a path of compassion and reconciliation.
REPLY: I couldn't agree more.
Calling people names, talking down to them (or not talking to them at all), and judging their hearts has no place in the discussion.
REPLY: NO name calling, unless you consider using the accurate descriptive computer speak word Troll as such, talking down to, or judging of hearts from me.
Regardless of your viewpoint.
Take the high road, or don't make the trip.
REPLY: Would you not consider advocating TRUE and MEANINGFUL DEBATE, while taking a stand against antagonistic and detracting behavior, taking the HIGH ROAD????
Father in Heaven,
I commit these things to your will knowing that you have heard me and I trust in you to move mountains. To show my faith and add sincerity to my prayed requests, I promise you not to worry about these things I have just lifted up to you publicly.
In Jesus's name I pray.
AMEN.
...and AMEN.
Charlie,
Welcome to NBBCOF, brother!
You are from BaptistLife forum, right?
If so, thank you for reading my post over there and following the link here.
Thank you for trying to raise the level of discourse around here. I see what you are trying to do.
I think Brother Bratton is trying to suggest some gentle points to you.
Joseph
johnjaxthebaptist: I did write Mac Brunson concerning dropping SG as a featured speaker. I did have an applicable subject listed and I have received no reply. fyi
bible-in-a-year,
MANY people at BBC and GBC have been praying along these same lines for Dr. Mike and MABTS for several weeks.
johnjaxthebaptist,
I have e-mailed Mac Brunson as well. I had an applicable subject line, dated and signed the e-mail. I also, left my cell number and work number. That has been over a week ago and there has been no response to date.
bible-in-a year said...
I think Brother Bratton is trying to suggest some gentle points to you.
REPLY: And I attempted to give him gentle responses.
Charlie Fox said...
bible-in-a-year,
MANY people at BBC and GBC have been praying along these same lines for Dr. Mike and MABTS for several weeks.
3:30 PM, January 19, 2007
Thanks for putting up the prayer report.
The world needs to know that we're not like ...this... when we are at church.
Amd they need to hear (read) our prayers so they can join in.
We need people as far as these words are going out to join in and pray.
We need to be doing more praying here...
Our "converstions" need to be more of the "vertical" and less of the "horizontal." imho.
Charlie,
Brother Bratton has a blog
Thebrattonreport.blogspot.com.
Do you have one?
bible-in-a-year said..
Brother Bratton has a blog.
Do you have one?
No sir, I do not have a blog.
bible-in-a-year--
I prayed with you all you said and asked, and now....Amen.
Father in Heaven,
Let there be peace on Appling Road between the leaders of two Godly organizations.
Let it start now...
In Jesus's name I pray,
AMEN.
Father in Heaven,
Thank you for 2006Huldah!
Thank you for the privilege of having been blessed by the ministry of Dr. Gaines and Dr. Spradlin,... and the ministry of 2006Huldah who just ministered to me just right now...
...and for anyone else who reads these prayers and logins in here and says Amen.
Even if they've never been on a blog before.
In Jesus's name, AMEN.
ACE & DEACON 4545 and others, I sincerely & humbly apologize to you for using the word Troll in my posts. It will not appear in future posts!!
bible-in-a-year said: Please help Dr. Spradlin to stop being worried about financial matters from BBC. He is very worried that Dr. Gaines is trying to get him kicked out of a job. Please help Dr. Spradlin to stop worrying about this. Help Dr. Spardlin to trust in your Son over this key issue.
bible-in-a-year, I doubt Dr. Spradling is THAT worried over it, if at all. He probably finds it quite amusing that some of them are so worked up into a tizzy over one little question he answered.
Even if he was, from what I can judge in talking to some folks, if he did lose his job at MABTS, the GBC folks would be at his office door the very same day to pack him up and move him into the pastor's office over there. :)
Then some BBC folks would REALLY start talking nasty about him.
Praise the Lord for you Brother Charlie Fox!
Even if he was, from what I can judge in talking to some folks, if he did lose his job at MABTS, the GBC folks would be at his office door the very same day to pack him up and move him into the pastor's office over there. :)
Praise the Lord that Dr. Spradlin has no need to worry! God bless you for reassuring the sheep here!
"Then some BBC folks would REALLY start talking nasty about him."
Father in Heaven,
Let this not be true. Let nothing pass throught the mind, the heart, or the lips that is ill of Dr. Spradlin.
In Jesus's name, AMEN.
Ezkeiel & AOG,
God bless you for beginning a conversation to delve deeper into God's word!
Amazing!
How is it possible 4545, ace and the few others who are following blindly a man. can disregard character and the Word of God!
Your commoon sense is totally gone, and you hve become blinded by your agenda. How is it you will do anything to avoid the truth? Lets face it: it doesn't make any difference what "your man" does or how many of God's Laws he breaks, you will defend him and follow him to the end.
First of all, to even suggest that three men, who are as old as these men are, and one man in paraticular, who is over weight, climbing over a fence, of a gated community, which is posted, NO TRESSPASSING, is pretty is downright pathetic! It is dishonest on your part. It is pathtic to have three grown men deliberately breaking the law, (which they ought to uphold and respect), but it is even more bazzar and pathetic that these men be "pastors" who consider themselves to be followers of Christ and keepers of the sheep, and teachers of God's Word, and a light to the blind! What examples they are to our yourth!
And what was the REASON they made a laughing stock out of themselves and embarresed many Bellevue members?
It was intimidation and thuggery!
If what excuse they came up with, when they got caught, was to even to be in the realm of good and not for evil, then WHY didn't they pick up the phone and call Mr. Sharp? Mr. Sharp had been trying to get an audience with sg for some time but was refused!
Had they done what a normal person would have done, and called Mr. Sharp they would not have had to climb over the fence of a gated community and show arrogant disrespect for the law! and arrogant disrespect for Mr. Sharp.
But the SNEAK ATTACK was to intimidate as we found out later. The phone call sg finally did make to Mr. Sharp, was one where sg did some NAME CALLING! What sort of a pastor picks up the phone and threatens a sheep and calls him a nasty name when he doesn't "do the pastors will!"? Believe me, we have gotten into the trap that character does not count, but for many of us it does still count.
And just take a look at the character of the leaders of Bellevue. It was NEVER this base before! Not only was that immature it was SIN! Just to picture the scene in my mind is too beyond the pale.
To compare this character flaw and all the comic errors along with the extremely serious issues of not reporting a child molestor in the leadership with being equal to "going over the speed limit" is to be devoid of all discernment.
Nothing has been "petty". and therein is the problem. There are issues of character here and issues of morality here and issues of "power and control". Not to mention the issue that there has been a total lack of love, humility or repentance.
People who have been members of Bellevue for years and years are totally disrespected and told to "get out if you don't like it!". Their questions have gone unanswered and they have been strong-aarmed into silence. The cream of the crop teachers have been leaving or been shoved out.
No 4545 and the rest of you, we will not believe your lies or keep silent at your intimidations.
I see you running rough-shod over the sheep on this blog rather than keeping to the issues. You have resorted to personal attacks and motives rather than dealing with facts.
There is nothing here that PRIDE did not bring on and nothing here that honeaty and humility could not resolve. However, by these posts it has been made blantly clear that the "plan" is to continue to strong arm, lie and twist the truth and villify the innocent. These tactics you are using are as old as Cain and Able.
SecretMeeting,
Has anyone else considered that WPXX Channel 50 shares a building with Impact Logistics, which is run by Wayne VanderSteeg and David Hamilton.
Surely you are joking? How could the two things be even related? And are you SURE that they are even in the same building? You might want to double check that.
I smell another conspiracy...
Again - surely you must be kidding.
NBBCOF,
This might explain why, whether or not Bellevue's services will continue on Channel 24, they'll still be broadcast on Channel 24 this Sunday. Broadcasting on Channel 50 doesn't begin until January 21st
Yes, I posted that link earlier. And once again, my facts are proven as right for those who doubt my credibility. Just a suggestion for the future, I really do know what I'm talking about. :) That is all.
Charlie,
ACE & DEACON 4545 and others, I sincerely & humbly apologize to you for using the word Troll in my posts. It will not appear in future posts!!
Thank you for this post.
One more thing then I'll hush for a little bit...maybe!
I love it how SavingBellevue reposted the headlines on the fence, Wednesday night preaching, etc. on the front page. They are running low on gossip so they have to recycle some of their earlier stuff...how sad!
Gaines apologized for two of those things, and yet Mr. Haywood keeps bringing them up (and you people here keep bringing them up too)....the whole Wednesday night issue is deceiving on their website too. Again, how sad!
Your attention, please.
I STRONGLY encourage those that have OPPOSING VIEWS to post on this forum. True debate is HEALTHY.
However, I just as STRONGLY urge those, such as ACE and DEACON 4545, who frequently post for the sole purpose of being antagonistic and disruptive, not to attempt to detract with their antagonistic posts. Should they do so, which is their right, I STRONGLY urge posters on BOTH sides not to respond to those types of antagonistic posts that serve NO CONSTRUCTIVE PURPOSE, but attempt to detract from the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.
Fair enough, Ace. And in the spirit of the Christmas Truce of 1914 (no implication about sides here!), that lunch invitation stands.
Best,
JM
(Pro-pew) Rod Almondmartanti,
God bless you for your passion to serve the Lord.
(Pro-pulpit) Ace,
God bless you for accepting Charlie's apology.
Let us look optimistically for the good in the people who we deal with.
I am pro-revival.
Joseph
(offline)
Thanks, Josh. If I change my mind, I will let you know.
Hi Ace-
Please clarify something for me.
In your 4:55pm post today, you said that Steve “Gaines apologized for two of those things.” However, in Deacon Mike Pruett’s letter (dated 01/03/07), he stated that “he (Steve Gaines) has done nothing wrong.”
Hmmm…
I'm not saying I disagree with Pruett's letter, but I'm wondering this... why does his letter even matter to you? Steve Gaines apologized and it should not matter what else anyone said regarding the issues he apologized for.
Unlike Gaines later said he really did nothing wrong, then I don't see how anything else is relevant....if that's making sense? Sorry, it's hard for me to word this. I guess what I'm saying is, don't let want others say get in the way of what Dr. Gaines said.
This came from the Jollyblogger who is referenced on the front page of this blog. I always wondered what affect the blogs would have on socieity.
Here is the address if you want to see entire article,
http://jollyblogger.typepad.com/jollyblogger/2006/08/we_bloggers_oug.html
Russell Moore's August 29'th Russell Moore's August 29th post at Mere Comments called "Netroots?" He encourages us not to take ourselves too seriously and informs us that our influence is probably far less than we think.
He quotes a Weekly Standard article as follows:
It's perfectly understandable when political junkies and box office watchers conclude that web buzz augurs big things, but it's also perfectly backwards. We look at the humming activity of the blogosphere and assume the cadre of online enthusiasts behind it constitutes the tip of an off-line iceberg. It is assumed that for every posting on MyDD, or SoaP rap on YouTube, there must be dozens of people out there itching for impeachment of python gags.
Reality is just the opposite. People go to the blogosphere because they can't find a sizable number of people in their everyday, off-line lives that are as enthusiastic as they are. The blogosphere gathers together atypical fans and brings them together in what quickly becomes a broadband echo chamber. The louder and more intense the online community gets, the farther it's likely drifting from what is happening offline.
It appears there are really only about 10-20 people that post here consistently. It is starting to sound like a broadband echo chamber.
Just my opinion.
Rod Almondmartanti
I agree with yu 100%!
Let me share a little story with you about what happened at work with me today...I sell consumer goods on the sales floor as an inside salesman...I was closing the sale with this elderly lady and she told me how she had some large pine trees in her yard and she rake"s the pine needles for her son in law puts them in large lawn bags and saves them for him to use as mulch.She had several large bags but was not thru raking so she pulled the bags up closer to her house so no one would get them.She took a break from the raking and came back and to finish raking after her break and the bags were gone she told me.she said she could not believe someone would trespass in her yard to steal the pine needle mulch.Then she said "You know i really wasn"t upset about the loss of the pine needles being stolen it was the idea that someone trespased in my yard that was stealing.I thought
hmmm I never looked at it that way....Folks what the fence gang and the ringleader did to Mark Sharp was stealing....I think they came to bully and not in love.Looking down on this mans children at the door the children staring back up at the tall man saying daddys not home was also stealing.These kids will remember this the rest of their life.This man looking down on these kids later insulted their daddy that was stealing.This man with a pastors heart later calling Mark Sharpe Hezzbollah.That was stealing.Folks are church has been hijacked.And many people are starting to see the light.Will post more later...
Quote: "Reality is just the opposite. People go to the blogosphere because they can't find a sizable number of people in their everyday, off-line lives that are as enthusiastic as they are. The blogosphere gathers together atypical fans and brings them together in what quickly becomes a broadband echo chamber. The louder and more intense the online community gets, the farther it's likely drifting from what is happening offline."
That is exactly what Dan Rather tried to get people to believe right before the 'blogs' brought out the truth and cost him his job.
Terry Smith
I recently had lunch with a group of 11 ladies who share my concerns about BBC. Some of these ladies do not blog. Most of them have husbands, friends, and relatives that are concerned but many of them do not blog.
I know many of the bloggers personally but there are many more that I do not know.
We also have friends in key positions that will not blog.
I know what you're trying to say about our numbers but I think you would be very surprised at how far off you really are.
I don't think numbers matter much, though. This isn't a popularity contest.
The issues are what matters. The issues of secrecy, power, greed, arrogance, deceit, intimidation....
Doesn't God's word talk about the narrow gate?
And what about Gideon's army?
God is in control.
fallen,
I had that thought about MS kids and the "God Squad" showing up at the door. I was home sick a few months back and just happened to open the door to 4 older BBC members who were witnessing in my apt. complex. Because my name is out there and I blog with my real name, I sort of panicked and was very nervous (that went away after we visited awhile).
I can't imagine what MS kids thought seeing 4 men show up unannounced at the door, at night, no parents home, not knowing how thes men got past the "NO TRESSPASSING" signs and high fence surrounding their neighboorhood. The reason those gates are there are to keep out people who come unannounced - just like a buzzer in walk up apt. buildings and automatic gates that require a PIN for entry. I really feel for the kids and if it had happened to me that way, the cops would have been on speed dial. Also, we live in a very trigger happy society. If the 4 men had been climbing over a fence in my neighborhood, they probably would still be picking buckshot our of uncomfortable places.
karen
PS: Dr. appt went ok - keep praying! Thanks!
BTW,
Before I get slammed for the "God Squad" comment, I've always referred to BBC ministers as that. Dr. Rogers, Tommy Lane, Dr. Whitmire, Bob Sorrell, Dale Palmer and other ministers. So don't take it as a slam; it's just my code, no offense meant.
karen
or "Six Flags over Memphis"
The conflict at Bellevue, if you'll allow me to editorialize, is fairly cut and dry. The church leadership will always conflate and sermonize, use scripture, pawns and sycophants, but based on what the church has admitted, laws have been broken and a serious breach of trust has been introduced into the congregation. At the very least, it should be expected that a virtuous, compassionate and transparent acknowledgement of the harms inflicted is in order, and a forum within the church, by its articles of faith, to manage the family's business regarding ethics, rehabilitation and incompetance inside its government; then, those matters of a wider legal, civic or community concern--criminal activity, public safety issues, the invitation and care to victims, transparency of government, etc.--would be adjudicated in accomadating language outside of a particular religious context, where it belongs.
Why do I continue to hear from very reliable sources that the leadership at BBC are going after Dr. Spradlin like a pack of hungry wolves? Are they afraid that Dr. Spradlin will expose them and their lies? Dr. Spradlin only wants the truth to be exposed and if that brings some men down, then sobeit! Preach on Dr. Spradlin and follow God's lead. The men at Bellevue could learn a thing or two from you!
Ace, because sg "apologized" it's an "oiie olie olsen free"!? I don't think so. A talisman to touch, then it's like poof, no one can bring it up again? NO, I don't think so. When you get caught, and THEN decide to apologize, because you got caught, what's that? For most of us it counts as a big fat zero.
Besides, we do NOT need ANOTHER apology from sg but a confession of sin and asking for forgiveness to all the parties sinned against.
Once, Bellevue taught about sin and repentance and knew what sin was. We knew sin was sin and that when we sinned we were to confess that sin to God and to all the parties involved. That is God's way, to confess SIN. Now, the new teaching at Bellevue seems to be that sin is now defined as a "mistake". And, we all make these little mistakes don't we? We see this new teaching demonstrated and taught: MISTAAKES OF THE MIND AND OR HEART. OPPS! Another mistake of the head, or was it the heart this time? BUT, a mistake none the less.
tO REDEFINE what is taking place and calling sin a mistake and making an apology because it was "blogged" about could be one of the reasons, its "not going away". There are some left who know the difference between the two: sin and mistakes.
Another new teaching at Bellevue: child molesters are making mistakes that are called, "moral failures."
How far have we fallen!
You are right on, Ron!
karen
Haven't posted in a while but you are so true WWJD! Mike Spradlin is a true man of God and I know he is following the will of God and not of Man! Shame on those at BBC who follow SG instead!
wwjd,
I feel that the leadership at BBC will continue to make these "mistakes" (sin) and lead BBC down the path to destruction. A funny (actually sad) thought crossed my mind a few days ago: Steve Gaines keeps shooting himself in the foot (if you will) by just being himself. He doesn't necessarily have to "do" stuff to be a bad leader; he just has to keep his bad attitude, volitle temper and using bad judgement and eventually he will touch everyone in the church. Does that make sense? Let me explain it this way: Many different people are involved with this blog for different "offenses" by the BBC leadership. Eventually if they keep going like they have been, they will do something that will tick off or spiritually hurt every single member of Bellevue. I don't have the statistics, but I think this movement of truthseekers is growing faster than the roles at BBC. It just depends on what's a certain person's "last straw" or "hot button issue" happens to be. Hope this makes some sense.
I guess if you compare the "itty bitty fence" issue to the "pedophile on staff" issue - somewhere along the line, an issue has got to hit all members where they live.
karen
Is it really true I ask everyone of you who still are members of BBC, that they want to build a maze in the prayer building they mentioned before of building what was the name of the maze it started with the Letter "L"?
Trollates:
Your 6:14 PM, January 19, 2007 post
Amen brother.
Rod,
Ace, because sg "apologized" it's an "oiie olie olsen free"!? I don't think so.
I'm glad Jesus doesn't think the same way that you do. Otherwise we'd be all condemned to hell. Thank God for His grace, though.
A talisman to touch, then it's like poof, no one can bring it up again? NO, I don't think so. When you get caught, and THEN decide to apologize, because you got caught, what's that? For most of us it counts as a big fat zero.
Again, I'm glad Jesus doesn't think the same way you do. I'm glad that he forgives us and doesn't hold our past sins against us for the rest of our lives. Again, thank God for His Grace
Besides, we do NOT need ANOTHER apology from sg but a confession of sin and asking for forgiveness to all the parties sinned against.
Likewise, all the parties on this forum need to apology to Gaines and confess their sins and ask for forgiveness.
Rod, with all due respect and no offense meant, you need to take a look at where your heart is. See if it's in the right place. If it is, then great. If not, then there's something for you to work at. I'm not implying anything at all, just giving you a suggestion as a brother in Christ.
noname,
It's called a labrynth - no points off for spelling, ok? I heard that rumor, but I haven't commented on it. I don'g know anything about it. Ace, do you?
karen
They are SCARED TO DEATH OF MIKE SPRADLIN! Why? Because he is a man of God.
Why? Because he will not compromise with evil.
Why? Because he doesn't kiss butt.
Why? Because he can't be flattered away.
Why? Because he is more fearful of the LORD than losing his job.
Just as Saul was jealous of David, they are fearful and jealous of Dr. Spradlin.
ace,
I'm not starting a fight and I think I know what you'll say to this, but Steve Gaines isn't Jesus and we shouldn't treat him as such.
karen
Karen,
It's called a labrynth - no points off for spelling, ok? I heard that rumor, but I haven't commented on it. I don'g know anything about it. Ace, do you?
I heard about it from only stuff on this blog...nothing anywhere else, though.
I'm not starting a fight and I think I know what you'll say to this, but Steve Gaines isn't Jesus and we shouldn't treat him as such.
Jesus died on the cross for your and my sins. Can we not forgive Gaines for jumping a fence? That seems pretty reasonable to me.
Ed_T said...
bible-in-a-year said:
bible-in-a-year, I doubt Dr. Spradling is THAT worried over it, if at all. He probably finds it quite amusing that some of them are so worked up into a tizzy over one little question he answered.
Even if he was, from what I can judge in talking to some folks, if he did lose his job at MABTS, the GBC folks would be at his office door the very same day to pack him up and move him into the pastor's office over there. :)
Then some BBC folks would REALLY start talking nasty about him.
4:02 PM, January 19, 2007
Ed_T please explain to the following posters that everything will be okay for Dr. Spradlin. You really encouraged me with your post hear from you. -Joseph
BBC Admin, please take your sites off of Dr. Spradlin. He is a Godly man.
Please, let us slow down the train...
WWJD said...
Why do I continue to hear from very reliable sources that the leadership at BBC are going after Dr. Spradlin like a pack of hungry wolves? Are they afraid that Dr. Spradlin will expose them and their lies? Dr. Spradlin only wants the truth to be exposed and if that brings some men down, then sobeit! Preach on Dr. Spradlin and follow God's lead. The men at Bellevue could learn a thing or two from you!
7:14 PM, January 19, 2007
INTEGRITY said...
Haven't posted in a while but you are so true WWJD! Mike Spradlin is a true man of God and I know he is following the will of God and not of Man! Shame on those at BBC who follow SG instead!
7:32 PM, January 19, 2007
Ace, Jesus died for sin, not mistakes, that became mistakes when you were caught. Don;t you honestly know the difference?
Is this really something to trivielize, Ace? You are fooling around with the gospel. It is not something to play word games with. If I were you, I'd concentrate on your own heart. You have a big enough job there without judging everyone else's who doesn't agree with you.
ace,
Do you really think that we (the bloggers/the dissidents/the truthseekers) would take all this time out of their lives to fight so hard for a church that we love if we felt that our leadership was completely truthful and transparent to its membership?
I have other things to do and yet I am drawn, even commanded by God to stand for the truth. If that stand includes blogging, then I'm not stopping. I won't stop until every stone is unturned at BBC and we all know the leadership will continue to be truthful.
karen
You know what is really interesting about this blog? How you all can go to the same church and have such different doctrines.
Some are of the 'no law but lots of grace' crowd. And others are the 'law, repentence, regeneration and grace' crowd.
Since Gaines is more of the 'no law but lots of grace' (at least for himself and PW), I have to wonder if Ace is someone who came to BBC to work for Gaines?
noname
Its called a labyrinth and it is different from a maze in that there are no dead ends. There is one entrance and one exit.
Finance Guy saw it in the original plan for the prayer facility that was distributed some time ago. He's looking for a copy to put on the site.
If I saw it, then it flew right over my head at the time because I'd never heard of one.
It's a new age deal (with roots in eastern religions) that is used in conjunction with contemplative prayer. I believe they are described as a tool to help you "connect with the divine".
You can get info on the internet.
St. George's Episcopal and Second Baptist are two churches in Memphis that have them.
Rod Almondmartanti said...
They are SCARED TO DEATH OF MIKE SPRADLIN! Why? Because he is a man of God.
Why? Because he will not compromise with evil.
Why? Because he doesn't kiss butt.
Why? Because he can't be flattered away.
Why? Because he is more fearful of the LORD than losing his job.
Just as Saul was jealous of David, they are fearful and jealous of Dr. Spradlin.
7:39 PM, January 19, 2007
Dr. Spradlin,
Please stop trying to scare Dr. Gaines.
Dr. Gaines, please stop being jealous of Dr. Spradlin (if that is true).
Dr. Spradlin, Dr. Gaines please don't compromise with evil and continue this fight...
If you will both compromise with Jesus we can have peace.
Rod,
Ace, Jesus died for sin, not mistakes, that became mistakes when you were caught. Don;t you honestly know the difference?
Some mistakes can also be considered as sins.
Is this really something to trivielize, Ace?
No, not really, but I'm not the one trivilizing anything.
You are fooling around with the gospel. It is not something to play word games with.
No, sir, I am not. Please watch your accusations because you were very offensive with that comment to me. Don't accuse me of playing games with the Gospel.
You have a big enough job there without judging everyone else's who doesn't agree with you.
That's not my job to judge you - I have never done that and never will.
I was told last week by someone who saw him there that Paul Williams was on the Bellevue campus Wednesday and Thursday nights last week (January 10th and 11th). We were told by Steve Gaines (from the pulpit) that PW would not be allowed back on campus during the church's investigation. Therefore, either the investigation was finished by January 10th or else they violated their own conditions by allowing him back on campus during the investigation. It has also been reported that he was seen at work as late as December 15th, just two days before the "official" statement was read to the congregation. On that same date David Coombs told David Brown that PW had been "relieved of duties" pending outcome of an investigation. Why was PW at work at the same time David Coombs stated he'd been relieved of his duties?
David Coombs has stated that PW was on the church campus for a meeting on the evening of the 11th "for our convenience." He didn't say whether PW was there the day before or why a meeting couldn't just as easily have been held somewhere off campus.
ace said...
Jesus died on the cross for your and my sins. Can we not forgive Gaines for jumping a fence? That seems pretty reasonable to me
Forgiveness was asked for and given by me - you know it's way more than that. You a smart person and a compassionate one (as evidenced in your emails to me when I had surgery - you said some nice stuff to me) You've got to acknowledge that "something is rotten in Denmark" over at BBC. With all your knowledge of innerworkings of the church, haven't you seen some untoward stuff that makes you uncomfortable? How can you explain the "checks in the spirit" that lots of people referred to earlier today - people that didn't know each other and had never communicated before this blog was created. Is God toying with these people? Has God purposely blinded you? Has He blinded us? Please help me with this one - how can we both see the issues so differently yet still both be in the will of God?
karen
You know what is really interesting about this blog? How you all can go to the same church and have such different doctrines.
Some are of the 'no law but lots of grace' crowd. And others are the 'law, repentence, regeneration, grace' crowd.
Since Gaines sermons seem to lean more to the 'no law but lots of grace' position (at least for himself and PW), I have to wonder if Ace is someone who came to BBC to work for Gaines?
Karen,
Do you really think that we (the bloggers/the dissidents/the truthseekers) would take all this time out of their lives to fight so hard for a church that we love if we felt that our leadership was completely truthful and transparent to its membership?
Honestly? Some of you people are still fighting and you really don't love Bellevue. And those who love Bellevue and are fighting are not showing their love in their posts which kinda defeats the purpose of posting if you ask me.
I have other things to do and yet I am drawn, even commanded by God to stand for the truth. If that stand includes blogging, then I'm not stopping.
And I am here for the same exact reason. I have never told you to leave here because you disagree with me. You have never told me to leave here because I disagree with you. I wish we could all act this way. Thanks for being one of the few who treat me with respect.
I won't stop until every stone is unturned at BBC and we all know the leadership will continue to be truthful.
Good for you, Karen. (no sarcasm) :)
Karen,
Forgiveness was asked for and given by me - you know it's way more than that.
What about everyone else who just can't make themself forgive him because pride or another reason? It's kinda sad, if you ask me.
You've got to acknowledge that "something is rotten in Denmark" over at BBC.
Again, I have stated before, yes, mistakes have been made. But I believe that they have been all addressed sufficiently to this day.
With all your knowledge of innerworkings of the church, haven't you seen some untoward stuff that makes you uncomfortable?
I have never claimed to have any knowledge of "innerworkings of the church," so I'm going to skip this portion of your post.
How can you explain the "checks in the spirit" that lots of people referred to earlier today - people that didn't know each other and had never communicated before this blog was created.
No, to be honest, I can't explain that.
Is God toying with these people?
No, absolutely not.
Has God purposely blinded you? Has He blinded us?
God hasn't blinded anyone. Certain people have chosen for themselves to be blind towards some issues for a number of reasons...
ace,
So knowing about the change of TV station may not be an "innerworking of the church", but do have some knowledge evidenced by your posts about the TV thing. You asked to trust you and that issue I'm gonna. (I didn't really understand that issue - I think ju -was that who posted about that> - didn't know that PAX was a regular TV channel)
ace said...
God hasn't blinded anyone. Certain people have chosen for themselves to be blind towards some issues for a number of reasons...
Does this apply to both sides of the issues?
karen
PS: thanks for the compliments in your other posts :) We'd get along in "real life", huh?
Karen,
About the TV thing...I see your point...
Does this apply to both sides of the issues?
RE: the issue of being blind.
I think that everyone, on either side, is blind in certain aspects. Nobody knows absolutely everything, even if people pretend that at times. Does that make sense?
PS: thanks for the compliments in your other posts :) We'd get along in "real life", huh?
No problem. Believe it or not, in "real life" everybody gets along with me. Posting on this blog has shown me a new light! :)
ace said...
I think that everyone, on either side, is blind in certain aspects. Nobody knows absolutely everything, even if people pretend that at times. Does that make sense?
How you said what you said makes sense, but the content of what you said kind of scares me. Shouldn't leadership know everything about everything at the church they lead? If you don't agree, why not? That could lead to one hand not knowing what the other hand is doing, don't you think? That is never good in a corporate setting. I would think a church organization would be willing to be open with its workings - almost to a fault.
karen
I wonder how long this website will be around. Before he shuts this site I want to tell all you here still at BBC people kind words at that day. and on that day I would like to address anyone who used to be a member and is not at BBC for one reason or another too.
Karen,
How you said what you said makes sense, but the content of what you said kind of scares me. Shouldn't leadership know everything about everything at the church they lead?
Let me correct myself. When I said that statement, I was referring to the normal people who post on this blog. i.e. Jim Haywood, NBBCOF, etc. I was not talking about church leadership.
As for the church leadership, I am pretty sure that they do know almost everything in the church.
ace said...
As for the church leadership, I am pretty sure that they do know almost everything in the church.
Still scary to me - could lead to an Enron sort of situation or like I said above, one hand not know what the other hand is doing. I'm not saying the Pastor needs to know all the SS lessons that will be taught or who wasn't the choir last Sunday, but a good example for be that of the donation to the FUMC. $25,000 was given to them on the "whim" of the Pastor - not trying to be cutting with that comment, but Harry Smith did acknowledge that not much thought went into that decision. He also said they never prayed over it. Don't forget the CC also said they didn't know that FUMC had a female pastor. It just seems to me that if the Finance Committee would have run that suggestion of the donation by the deacons and the church body that this debacle and embarrassament to the leadership could have been avoided. See what I mean? My opinion is this: Steve Gaines is so concerned about making his mark at BBC that he's willing to do whatever it takes to make that mark. My husband just reminded me of a saying that reminds us of the way it seems Steve runs things: "it's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to ask permission".
karen
ace,
no critizing my grammar in the above post - I have "I just bought a house" head and my brain is behind my fingers! :)
karen
Catching up from last night.
overflowinggrace, see post at 10:21,o7 from bereans.
Tahnk you bereans, you said it better than I could.
4545,post 11:36. 1-18-07. Indeed, How sad!!!!!!!
www.jesusdotcalm, post 7:05, 1-19-07, I remember exactly what Sunday that SG told us "To Get Over It." It was the Sunday Nov.13, 2005. Three days before Dr. Rogers died. I confess for all to hear, I had to bow down before God and beg him to forgive me for not getting up and leaving the service. I have regretted it ever since.
So, thank you very much for responding.
You all may think I hate SG, in fact I love SG and his partners. I just do not like them. I do not like what they have done to our church and to the memory of Dr. Rogers. I have prayed without ceasing for them and for BBC.
In the name of Jesus,
Karen,
Still scary to me
So it's scary either way, eh?
...Harry Smith did acknowledge that not much thought went into that decision. He also said they never prayed over it. Don't forget the CC also said they didn't know that FUMC had a female pastor.
Yes, they probably rushed into sending this check but the thing is they realize that and acknowleddge that. They have implemented measures to make sure things don't like this happen again.
It just seems to me that if the Finance Committee would have run that suggestion of the donation by the deacons and the church body that this debacle and embarrassament to the leadership could have been avoided.
And I think it's safe to assume that in the future, this will probably happen. Note: I am not saying it will, but I think they will learn from that mistake. (which BTW, I still don't believe that donation was so horrible...but hey, that's a different story!)
I hope I made sense...
concerned,
Thanks for the confession above, but don't beat yourself up over it - I think God has taught us all that it takes courage to stand in the gap they way we are. If you ever wanna leave the service over something said from the pulpit, I'd be proud to go with. Heck, what have I got to lose? FOX News got me on camera in a sparkly red sweater sitting during the standing ovations on the Wed. night after the Mike Spradlin article in the CA. I'm sure someone's watching me! :)
karen
Karen,
no critizing my grammar in the above post - I have "I just bought a house" head and my brain is behind my fingers! :)
1) Congratulations.... 2) I only criticize the grammar when you make silly mistakes that nobody should make if you're past the second grade. Sure, a mistake or two may happen occasionally, but when it constantly happens there's a problem!
I'm probably going to make Charlie mad by doing this...but here goes:
Ace said:
Again, I have stated before, yes, mistakes have been made. But I believe that they have been all addressed sufficiently to this day.
Piglet responds:
What if you were in a meeting with Steve Gaines and he said he is "accountable to noone"?
What if you talked with Craig Parker personally and he told you that before he left his job in finance at BBC that Gaines was making over $400,00.00 a year and repeatedly asked for advances on his salary?
What if concerned staff brought issues of integrity to you, a deacon, concerning the pastor and when you raised these issues you were told you were "no longer a deacon"?
What if you were in a meeting with MS and SG and heard SG threaten to pull BBC funding of MABTS if an apology was not issued concerning MS statement to the newspaper?
If these things happened to you personally, could you stand by and allow this man to run the church?
Never mind the stuff he DID apologize for, or the check to the liberal church, or concealing PW's sin and endangering our kids, or his refusal to preach on Wednesdays......
No, everything has not been dealt with.
If you knew these things,would you shut up and go away?
Ace,
Your post is excellent, but when do these mistakes seem to keep happening just become an incapability to lead a church as large as BBC? It's great that steps to prevent future mistakes from happening have been implemented, but I have to think that these steps were already in place or the mistake was so monumentally stupid that there's no way it could ever happen again due to the stir it caused the 1st time. My family and I have been at BBC since the 1970s and I can't remember once hearing about giving money somewhere that was not even prayed over. Is that part of the new steps implemented? I hope not.
I'm not go there with you tonight about how I feel about the gift itself - we could get into it when a Buddist temple or a Islamic mosque burns - but I'm too tired tonight. I have to believe God will use that money specifically to help the homeless with the food ministry and the clothing ministry at FUMC and let's leave it at that.
karen
ace wrote:
"Let me correct myself. When I said that statement, I was referring to the normal people who post on this blog. i.e. Jim Haywood, NBBCOF, etc. I was not talking about church leadership."
1. Jim Haywood hasn't posted on this blog.
2. Thank you for the compliment (i.e. "normal people").
ace said...
Sure, a mistake or two may happen occasionally, but when it constantly happens there's a problem!
Hey, tell Steve that! :D I'm kidding! Please don't get mad or offer me a cookie - I'm actually learning from you tonight! And if when this blog shuts down, you have to PROMISE to let me know your true identity. We've both earned it....
Karen,
Your post is excellent
I know. Ha, just kidding.... sorry, I couldn't resist.
but when do these mistakes seem to keep happening just become an incapability to lead a church as large as BBC?
Honestly I don't believe SG has does anything that shows he is incapable of leading a church...even of BBC's size. But since you didn't accuse that of happening, I'll address the question.... I don't really know. I mean, I have my own opinion, but I will be attacked if I post it so I will refrain from doing that (not attacked by you, but others).
My family and I have been at BBC since the 1970s and I can't remember once hearing about giving money somewhere that was not even prayed over. Is that part of the new steps implemented? I hope not.
So they failed to pray about this one issue...I don't know why they were so rushed to do that they would bypass this step, sorry. You'll have to ask SG for a answer on this one!
I have to believe God will use that money specifically to help the homeless with the food ministry and the clothing ministry at FUMC and let's leave it at that.
Another good thing..
NBBCOF,
1. Jim Haywood hasn't posted on this blog.
How sure are you of that? Because I have evidence that suggests otherwise. ;)
2. Thank you for the compliment (i.e. "normal people").
No problem...anytime.
NBBCOF, have I been a good boy tonight?
Karen,
Hey, tell Steve that! :D
Ha, thanks for the laugh!
Please don't get mad or offer me a cookie
#1 - I don't get mad easy...nobody on this blog has ever seen me angry, I promise. #2 - I only offer cookies to people who need congratulating or are mad and constantly complaining. Because you and I both know that cookies always make things better.
Hey, I have an idea. After the service on Sunday night, we should have a cookie fellowship and everybody can be friends again!
And if when this blog shuts down, you have to PROMISE to let me know your true identity. We've both earned it....
No promises, sorry!
ace said...
You'll have to ask SG for a answer on this one!
The CC spoke for him and we still didn't get the answer. You also said you didn't know why they were so rushed - what if they were rushed because Steve said so, thereby there was going to be no further discussion, not even asking God first. If they're not praying over this, who's to say they're just doing things on Steve's whim all over the place?
If you will answer Piglet's post - it has some valid questions. For the record - Piglet, please tell me you weren't telling ace to shut up. Or did I read the last part of your post just really wrong.
karen
Karen,
The CC spoke for him and we still didn't get the answer.
Then I'm sorry for that, I really don't know the answer.
You also said you didn't know why they were so rushed - what if they were rushed because Steve said so, thereby there was going to be no further discussion, not even asking God first.
Then Steve made a mistake, which isn't that what they already admitted?
If you will answer Piglet's post - it has some valid questions.
I would love to address Piglet's post but I would rather not because of the way he/she has treated me in the past. He/she will do nothing but argue and attack my response to him/her and I'd rather avoid that right now. He/she will just call me a liar, a troll, and tell me to go away which I don't really want to deal with right now.
Piglet,
Let's talk about this next week. I wanted to at least re-frame your points in the pro-pew vs. pro-pulpit debate (we need to host a real online debate. We could get lots of interest across the blogosphere).
What if you were in a meeting with Steve Gaines and he said he is "accountable to noone"?
This is a pro-pew vs. pro-pulpit issue.
What if you talked with Craig Parker personally and he told you that before he left his job in finance at BBC that Gaines was making over $400,00.00 a year and repeatedly asked for advances on his salary?
This is a pro-pew vs. pro-pulpit issue.
What if concerned staff brought issues of integrity to you, a deacon, concerning the pastor and when you raised these issues you were told you were "no longer a deacon"?
This is a pro-pew vs. pro-pulpit issue.
What if you were in a meeting with MS and SG and heard SG threaten to pull BBC funding of MABTS if an apology was not issued concerning MS statement to the newspaper?
This is ***not*** a pro-pew vs. pro-pulpit issue.
The pro-pew vs. pro-pulpit issues:
These are issues in churches of every size and flavor and denomination. They are not specific to BBC or Dr. Gaines.
(offline)
Well, Karen, I'm getting off the computer for a bit. Feel free to send your responses my way if you have any, I'll address them when I get back.
Did the adhoc committee respond to Brother Steve getting advances?
Hey, ace. Why don't cha go out for a long one?
Ok, I can't make you do something you don't want to
So, in your opinion, how many mistakes will you accept from Steve before it hits your last straw? Do you have kids? If not, I could understand how the PW issue probably wouldn't affect you directly, so I just wonder what it would take for you to "break ranks" if you will. I don't have kids, but I was physically and emotionally abused by my ex-husband, so this issue really eats at me.
In my situation, I reported him to his superiors as he was in the Navy, but they gave him a barracks restriction and took some pay away (which was really stupid because he smacked me around even worse when we didn't have enough money at the end of the month). That was to say this: If they guy in charge of my ex would have spoken to a superior or someone with some knowledge of the innerworkings of an abusive relationship, I would have been spared another beating.
Stay with me - Steve Gaines kept what Paul Williams told him to himself because in Steve's opinion it was "under the blood". To my knowledege Steve has no counseling training for abuse issues. If I'm wrong, please let me know, but his resume does not indicate such training. He should have not kept this issue to himself regardless of how he thought he should handle it. He kept it to himself because I feel he wanted to be spared another debacle at BBC - after all the apologizing he'd been doing - instead of doing what should have been done which is reporting PW to the police, waiting for the police to pick PW up off the church property, cleaned out PW's office and changed the locks. Then he should have told the church the next service exactly what was said and we could have gotten past this by now. When Dr. Rogers learned of an adulterous affair by a staff member, that staff member was brought before the church - there was not committee. It was dealt with and it was done.
karen
David Brown,
I had taped the show on wkno the other night. "In God's hands." I watched it last night. It was so horrifying when it got to the part about the Nun being intervied and she called her boss, that had been protecting this Priest. She asked him what should she tell this newspaper person? He told her not to tell them anything. It was like a punch in the gut! I thought to myself, this is what is going on at BBC. Made me sick.
To think of you and so many other people that have been abused, and it takes nearly a life time to tell it. I thought of PW son and I stopped and prayed that God would give him whatever guidance he needs to be able to get on with his life.
I would urge everyone that did not see it, to try and find a copy to watch. It will change you. I tried to tell my daughter about it today and broke down crying, to think of such horror. And to think we have a person like this on staff.
David, I love you and keep up the good work.
In Christ,
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