Channel 5 is supposed to air a new story on today's 5:00, 6:00, and 10:00 p.m. broadcasts.
Channel 3's Mike Matthews did an interview with David Brown this afternoon that is supposed to air at 5:00, 6:00, and 10:00 p.m.
From the January 28th BellevueToday:
"Following the evening Worship Service tonight, the Investigative Team and the Personnel Committee will give their reports regarding Paul Williams. Due to the delicate nature of some issues that will be discussed, it is recommended that children not be present during the report time."
And here they are.
So now that it's over, what are your thoughts?
Media Coverage:
The Commercial Appeal's story is here.
Channel 5's coverage is here.
FOX13's coverage is here and here.
Channel 24's coverage is here.
The latest from EthicsDaily.com is here.
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563 comments:
1 – 200 of 563 Newer› Newest»Thoughts...it was pretty much what I expected. The blame was spread..but no word on what will be the disposition of those on whom blame was laid...no word on who the "retired Bellevue counselor" was/is 17 yrs ago, or who the psychologist is who knew within this last year...but I haven't read the full report yet...I'll do that in the morning.
I am reposting what friendinjax wrote because it needs to be read over and over. He is right.
FriendinJax said...
Everyone: I think you all are missing the point here. I wasn't waiting for this committee report to find out but one thing, and one thing only (actually two facts): I wanted confirmation on WHAT it was that PW did to his son (we now know that he raped his son FOR MONTHS ON END - let's call it what it is; before the report I wasn't sure if it was something that involved physical contact - there were any number of things that it could have been), and I wanted confirmation that PW went to SG in June and TOLD SG EXACTLY WHAT HE DID TO HIS SON.
Here's the significance of the report: We now know WITH 100% CERTAINTY: STEVE GAINES KNEW THAT HE HAD A RAPIST, CHILD MOLESTER ON HIS STAFF, AND DIDN'T HAVE THE PRESENCE OF MIND TO KNOW WHAT TO DO. This reminds me of the president in the 2005 series of 24 where the vice president "choked" at the precise moment he was needed to make a split second decision, and he put the entire nation at risk by letting the terrorist slip through Jack Bower's hands (sorry, I do watch that program).
When I heard that SG didn't report this for 6 months, my thought was "perhaps PW showed his son some pornography; perhaps his son walked in on him during a moment of indiscretion, maybe it was something not involving physical contact". BUT NOW WE KNOW!! SG KNEW THAT PW RAPED HIS SON!
"So what" you say?
Now that we know that PW in June went to SG and told him EXACTLY what he did to his son, I now have to wonder if SG is qualified to be the pastor of a Baptist church (any Baptist church). Here's why:
I'm trying to picture the scene where PW admitted this heinous act to SG. I'm trying to think in my mind of one serious, grown, Christian man that has a family and sons and daughters, and WOULDN'T know what to do. I honestly can't think of one!! I honestly can't think of one serious Christian man (let alone a pastor) that wouldn't immediately be so repulsed and offended to his inner core to hear this man confess of his actions, that wouldn't know IMMEDIATELY, INSTINCTIVELY what to do. I can't think of one serious Christian man I know that would have to pray about it, look it up in the Bible, ask someone else about. I can't think of a Christian man that would have to call another minister, would have to call a committee meeting to figure out what to do (let alone one that would wait 6 months). All serious, Christian men that have their own families immediately upon hearing this man describe what PW did to his son would jump into action. After restraining themselves from strangling this man, they would IMMEDIATELY call the police. They would immediately mobilize the forces of the church staff to jump into action to make sure this man is removed from the premises, not allowed back on the premises. They would immediately determine how to break the news to the congregation as soon as possible to find out the extent of the damage this monster had done to the congregation. They would JUMP INTO ACTION LIKE JACK BOWER KICKING THE SUICIDE BOMBER OUT OF THE BACK OF THE SUBWAY TRAIN JUST MOMENTS BEFORE HIS BOMB WENT OFF. He wouldn't stop to think how it would look, what damage he might cause himself, he would take action immediately.
This all would tell me one thing if I were a member at BBC.
Steve Gaines CANNOT BE MY PASTOR. How can any man with a family and kids look up to this man? He is not MAN enough to be my pastor, I would have to go elsewhere.
Lastly, I have to say this:
Imagine the scene: Paul Williams comes into Adrian Rogers' office and confesses that he raped his son repeatedly for 18 months. Come on people....HE RAPED HIS SON FOR MONTHS ON END...do you not think a REAL MAN like Adrian Rogers wouldn't know what to do? I dare say Homer Lindsay, Jr. might end up in jail for what he would have done to this worm of a man for what he did to his son. But Homer Lindsay, Jr. was a "man's man"...not a feminized preacher man who doesn't have the presence of mind to deal with a child rapist monster.
I wouldn't stay and fight to have SG removed at BBC. Its too late for that. Not only is this pastor feminized, so must the congregation that isn't repulsed by SG "choking" at the precise moment a MAN was needed to take action and protect the church. SG choked, and he couldn't be MY pastor. He might be able to be YOUR pastor, but not mine. I need to have a MAN'S MAN as a pastor who knows AT LEAST how to protect women and children from child rapist monsters.
Sorry for sounding so angry, but you all have missed the point and significance of this church report. And ACE, you can put this in your pipe and smoke it: You can have this feminized pastor; I sure wouldn't be able to have him as my pastor. This report makes me appreciate Mac Brunson all the more - no way would he not have known what to do (I think Mac might have ended up in jail also like Homer Lindsay had he been told by PW what PW did to his son).
NESS, you know I've been a responsible poster here, I hope you will let this post stay.
11:15 PM, January 28, 2007
or who the psychologist is who knew within this last year...
That is disturbing as well, hope DCS ralks to them as well
Ace-
Are you denying that you are S. Coombs? Are you denying that you are related to David Coombs?
Proverbs 17:21 ¶ He that begetteth a fool doeth it to his sorrow: and the father of a fool hath no joy.
Proverbs 18:6 ¶ A fool’s lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.
7 A fool’s mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul.
8 ¶ The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.
Proverbs 23:9 ¶ Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
could-it-be-true
Close the window before you let some flies in.
offline
Thanks Lindon - I'm beginning to wonder about the others here that are still talking about this. What else is there to talk about? You all now know for 100% certainty. The pastor at BBC choked at the precise moment in time that the church needed him to protect the women and children from a rapist monster. The pastor at BBC that the congregation loves and applauds, was told by another man that this man raped his own son. Yet the pastor at BBC did NOTHING. DO YOU HEAR ME? HE DID NOTHING!!! Remember: at the moment SG was told by PW how PW RAPED HIS SON FOR MONTH ON END, SG didn't know if this guy was a serial predator. As a MAN, I would have suspected immediately that this man was a SERIAL child rapist and taken action AT THAT MOMENT. If I had my gun in arm's reach, I believe I would have held this man at gunpoint until the police arrived...for fear that he was suicidal for coming to tell me...that he might leave my office and do something stupid after confessing to such a heinous crime. This is akin to a murderer coming in to confess that he murdered another man (dare I say WORSE than a man murdering another man?). I think if I had my gun I would have held PW there in my office until the police arrived. Yet SG not only did not do this, he LET THE MAN ROAM AROUND THE CHURCH AND DID NOT WARN THE CONGREGATION!
I'll restate my premise: the significant part of the report tonight is that we now know WHAT PW did to his son, and we know that he DID IT CONTINUALLY FOR MONTHS TO HIS ADOLESCENT SON. DID YOU HEAR THAT? IT WASN'T ONE TIME, IT WAS FOR MONTHS. And we also know that STEVE GAINES HAD KNOWLEDGE OF THIS HEINOUS ACT. These two facts were not known by most of us in this blog. This changes everything.
BBC members wake up! Its time to leave while that "man" is the pastor!!! Why can't you see it? There's nothing left to talk about!
It was a weak attempt to cover up a coverup.
First of all, I am so sad for the victim and his family, but I do have the assurance that our great God will use this experience in their lives for their good and His glory.
I don't understand how the three ministers who knew about PW's incestuous acts have not been strongly reprimanded up to and including termination of employment. This wasn't a case of "I stole a pack of gum from the grocery store". Why anyone in the ministry would 1) follow the advice of a counselor via communication from the perp is unbelieveable; 2) not know and follow scripture.
g'night sotl!! :)
Proverbs 3:19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
20 By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew.
21 ¶ My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion:
22 So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck.
23 Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble.
24 When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet.
25 Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh.
26 For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.
goodnight
friendinjax, what about the pastors out there who invite this man to speak at pastor conferences? This concerns me to no end.
I am not Stephen Coombs.
A lot of people owe Stephen Coombs an apology, as well as the rest of the Coombs' family, including David for these lies and accusations. I'm sure they'll be waiting....
I guess this whole issue shows everyone how easy it is to gossip and etc about stuff.
Goodnight my lovely blog friends. I'm off for the night. Have fun gossiping! :)
one more
Proverbs 26:3 ¶ A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool’s back.
4 ¶ Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
friendnjax
A lot of us were already outraged at this man before the child molestation even came to light.
This just adds insult to injury.
It is beyond me how ANYONE can support this pastor unless they are totally in the dark or are complicit in his actions.
Hopefully, soon, IDC,Inc. will bring everyone into the light.
Then those who are complicit may stand utterly alone.
i-flyway: yes, those others who had knowledge should be held accountable...but they are not the PASTOR. THE PASTOR, THE SHEPARD OF THE FLOCK...THE MAN WHO IS RESPONSIBLE UNDER GOD FOR THE WELL BEING OF THE CHURCH.
You have a pastor who had a criminal in his office and did nothing to restrain him. Come to think of it, Steve Gaines should have punched him, tied him up, and waited for the police to arrive. But he must be a feminized preacher...I'LL SAY IT: HE WASN'T MAN ENOUGH TO DO A MAN'S JOB AND TAKE CARE OF A SERIAL CHILD RAPIST....WORSE YET, HE LET THE SERIAL CHILD RAPIST ROAM THE CHURCH.
Its time for some serious MEN OF GOD to STOP praying about this...yes, you heard me...there is NOTHING to pray about concerning SG. If you are a real man you can't have this man as your pastor. You can't have your kids, your boys under this feminized pastor. Stop praying, stop discussing it, stop whining about it, stop asking others what we should do...
aog,
is amos hebrew for impeccable timing?
This is troubling...the report said PW didn't come forward earlier for fear of his job..yet the pastor took his word for it that there was no repeat offense, was still in counseling, etc...why would he take the word of someone who David Coombs said should have stepped down on his own?...I find the excuse that this particular offense presented a problem which he didn't know how to deal with implausible....moral failure is moral failure is it not?...I would think a minister who admitted he raped his son, then covered it to protect his job, would present a no-brainer rather than a peculiar problem.
Lindon,
Right...and what about the membership that can't see through his clever disguise! They can't see that he is leading them down the road of total distruction! They are so deceived and can't get the blinders off their eyes. Now... they are protecting a man who protected a pedophile. Not to mention that this grand church has fallen to pieces under his lead!This is pitiful.
amos,
Sorry..not a Hebrew scholar..but keep those scriptures coming :)
Reposting here, as I didn't notice the other thread had ended.
________________
Look, folks, I spoke with "sick of the lies" after seeing her in tears. She was discussing DC's treatment of her with an eyewitness to it. He confirmed to me what happened; he was standing right next to DC at the time. This man is a long time Bellevue member. He gently, but firmly rebuked DC for his behavior, who then claimed he hadn't heard her. The man said he'd heard her and knew DC had too. DC then allowed "I may have heard her."
There you have it. This is the kind of stonewalling dishonesty that flows like an IV drip through the Bellevue leadership.
And the report. Notice how DC highlighted Jamie Fish's involvement compared to Steve Gaines. Blame was further laid off on Webb Williams and seven others (rightly so, no doubt), but the buck still stops at the top. Other than some mandatory training, none of these are to be disciplined in any way?
Forgiveness is available to all who confess and repent. The most heinous criminal on death row can find forgiveness and salvation in Jesus. But forgiveness does not remove consequences and restoration to fellowship doesn't mean restoration to leadership. I would hope no one here would disagree that the personnel committee did the right thing in dismissing PW. By the same token, those who harbored an admitted child molester on our staff and knew that his own family didn't even trust him endangered the congregation. The fact that they found no evidence of recent offenses means nothing. They could have and may have occurred. Those found culpable in the report should step down.
And please -- a man who's been a pastor for over 20 years didn't know the right thing to do in such cases? "Uncharted waters" indeed.
Ask yourself this question. If all the scandals and controversy now facing Bellevue had been swirling at Gardendale a couple of years ago, would you still have wanted to call Steve Gaines? If not, why should we keep him now?
Lindon said:
friendinjax, what about the pastors out there who invite this man to speak at pastor conferences? This concerns me to no end.
I agree - I've been singing this tune for about a month...but I will defend Mac and say he would have known what to do with the serial child rapist...I'm sorry, let me be more precise:
THE SERIAL, HOMOSEXUAL, CHILD RAPIST....
Mac would have known what to do...if I thought for a moment Mac wouldn't know what to do, I'd leave the church because a wimp who doesn't know what to do when a serial, homosexual, child rapist comes into the office and announces that his offense: THAT MAN CAN'T POSSIBLY BE MY PASTOR.
As I'm running these events through my mind, I just can't believe it....HOW ON EARTH DID SG PUT THIS MAN ON PAID LEAVE!!! My word, SG KNEW BY THIS OWN MAN'S ADMISSION THAT HE SERIALLY, HOMOSEXUALLY, RAPED HIS OWN CHILD. How can a real man stand in front of his congregation in a sedated state and announce a "moral indiscretion" and that the congregation is going to have to pay his salary while we investigate.
addendum to my 12:23 am post...but maybe I'm just missing something...thoughts?
Lindon and Imaresistor
I know you are praying for us.
Thanks, and don't stop. You see what we are up against. The deception seems satanic in nature. There's just no other way to explain it.
No matter what our leadership does,the membership drones in a trance-like daze "forgive and move on..."
aog,
didn't mean to confuse you, and am not trying to be ugly; this was pure coincidence; look at my 12:19am post, and look who it came under...and I really am off to bed
Harry Truman: "The buck stops here."
More and more people are suggesting that if you don't like it, leave. Now people on "both sides" are saying this.
PLEASE DO NOT LEAVE!!! YOU WILL HAVE NO VOICE IF YOU DO.
AND you will NOT feel better after leaving. The grieving does NOT go away just because you leave.
Refresh and renew somewhere else, but PLEASE do not move your membership. Unless Bellevue's condition no longer affects you and you are no longer grieved by her condition and her sin, you will NOT be free of this grief by simply moving your membership.
Please pray without ceasing
amos,
gotcha...lol
charis
AMEN!!!!!!
all2Jesus, I believed her from the start. It fits the MO of the leadership in this church. She needs to pray about it because it could very well be, that God intended for her to see that.
I believed it because these are the very ones who don't think that a minister raping his own son is a big enough deal to escort him off the property and call the authorities the minute they found out.
Piglet said...
Lindon and Imaresistor
I know you are praying for us.
Thanks, and don't stop. You see what we are up against. The deception seems satanic in nature. There's just no other way to explain it.
No matter what our leadership does,the membership drones in a trance-like daze "forgive and move on..."
Piglet,
Yes... I am praying for you and I won't stop. And yes, it is satanic. I think you know my story...you are now walking in my shoes. :( Trance like daze is a good term for it. My husband and I have discussed so many times the movie, The Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Have you ever seen that movie? These people are like zombies...alien forces have come from another planet and have taken over their bodies. They are void of any emotion. Thats what these members are like...you have known them for years and in some instances they are relatives, and it is like they are shells...you have never known these people. It is eerie. Really.
Just hang in there. I am so sleepy I am getting silly. :)
Ima
Ima
Yes,I have seen the movie and I have read your story. All of it is VERY familiar.
Thanks for standing with us.
You are an encouragement. :)
This little piggy's off to bed...
(offline)
Thanks Piglet...you are a dear.
This piggy is off to bed too!
G'nite........
Ima
Piglet wrote: Lindon and Imaresistor
I know you are praying for us.
Thanks, and don't stop. You see what we are up against. The deception seems satanic in nature. There's just no other way to explain it."
I AM praying for you all but it may surprise you just how I am praying. I am not praying that your church be restored. I am not praying for your church to be healed. I know that sounds mean but it really is not.
I am praying for the Name of Christ to be Glorified. And trust me, His Name will be Glorified even in the middle of this horrible event by those who LOVE HIM and HIS WORD.
I am praying that all true believers at Bellevue will trust God 'tho He slay' them. And, I am praying that this crisis will drive His own in that church to scriptures to discern truth. I pray that people stop following men because they bear the title: Pastor and start following Christ and the precepts and commands in the Word. ....Starting with me.
God bless you little pink piggie!
sickofthelies
I dont know you but that doesnt affect whether I believe you or not. We are both part of the family of God. From one victim to another, my heart aches and my tears flow for what you experienced tonight. People who take abuse...of any kind...but especially abuse from a minister lightly have never experienced the hurt themselves or in their family. I pray for you and stand with you against the leaders of BBC that dont seem to think this is a big deal. Please restore this church, Lord, to what it once was!!!!
Good Morning All! I couldn't hang with you guys last night (too tired!) so I want to say a few things this am. FriendinJax: you hit the nail on the head. It is unconscionable to believe that men like JF, SG, and WW wouldn't know what to do. It is an empty excuse at best. There just is no excuse.
I guess the next question is What now? Friend, you bring up good points about the Femininzation (is that a word???)of pastors. Again, it all goes to the seeker-friendly style. Talk about the good parts of scripture, never discuss the "hateful" parts. God is only good, kind, forgiving and merciful, but He must not be righteous, holy, or judging. That might scare someone away. Sin is sin, period. And God hates sin. Do we all sin? YES! Do we need forgiveness? YES! Do we still have to pay the consequences of our sin? YES! SG as a Seminary-trained pastor for 20 years SHOULD HAVE KNOWN what to do. I am amazed that folks don't get this.
A man who doesn't have a better grasp on scripture, doesn't have wisdom to deal with serious questions, surely cannot be qualified to lead a church like Bellevue.
I don't sense hate on this blog, I sense righteous anger; there is a difference. My prayers are with CW and family, sotl, charis, and all the others here who have been personally hurt. But my prayers are also with piglet, aog, mom4, linden, and everyone who is trying to follow God's word and "finish the race that has been set before them."
Truth has to win out.
Heavenly Father,
I pledge allegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic
for which it stands
one nation
under you
with liberty and justice
for all.
Father,
Please help us follow the Ten Commandments, even in our hearts. Thank you for the first Sabbath in six months where I did not even turn on my computer. Thank you for the rest and peace I feel from having been away from this spiritual battle. Father, you know how much I hate Mondays. Give me the strength to walk truthfully, lovingly, and peacefully through this particular Monday after the release of the internal investigative report (I almost vomited on the part, "12-18 months"). Father, I walk back here knowing the tension level is high, and that I don't even know what people have said since I left Friday. But I know you are still on your throne. Thank you for helping me finish the second book of the Bible here in this place. Help us to read today's text from the Bible (USA english) ("thou shalt" english). Please let the Great Commission move forward today in Bosnia-Herzegovina. In Jesus's name, Amen.
Thank you for this new thread, "Investigative Team and Personnel Committee Reports"
A couple thots:
1) the 'seeker sensitive' emphasis has a stepsister in the independent Baptist church growth movement in the late 50s and 60s. Jack Hyles at Miller Road Baptist in Garland, Texas, which left the SBC, set the standard for this. And all in the name of 'soul winning' and pastor control (better word is dictator). It was a movement to strong pastor control and deacons and congregation as followers only. And the ends always seem to justify the means, so I wouldn't expect any change in the flavor of the current leadership regardless of all the distractions.
2) Billy Graham in some of his writings - sorry this is from memory years past now so can't cite the source - said in a commentary to ministers who counsel people with sexual problems that there is a thin line between spiritual concern and personal titallation. I would think that should restrain most unless they have professional training, and certainly should preclude anyone with a history of sexual problems.
eprov,
Seems that was the mode at our mutual former church wouldn't you say?
AOG,
How can it be that things are so clear to a few and hidden from so many others? Is it just a choice we make? Does this come with an obligation?
aog wrote:"I would think a minister who admitted he raped his son, then covered it to protect his job, would present a no-brainer rather than a peculiar problem."
So he protected not only a minister who is a homosexual sodomizer of his own son but a liar, too. Deception is lying. He deceived the church for 17 years. You are right. That is a no brainer.
Steve Gaines enabled more lying to the church. It is kind of shocking that Gaines did not order him out of the building and call the authorities. Gaines must not think this was that big of a deal. His actions seem to point in that direction. Gee, I wonder what horrible sin it would take to get him to act like a pastor? (We keep forgetting that Paul Williams was his subordinate)
esther, this is a mystery. Was he just trying to avoid more problems, or is something more involved. 2+2 never add up.
churchmouse said...
"How can it be that things are so clear to a few and hidden from so many others? Is it just a choice we make? Does this come with an obligation?"
It is the difference between the wheat and the tares. It is a sifting you see in progress. A work in action. It is a choice we have already made. An obligation? Yes. Standing for Jesus at all costs.
Let me just make a suggestion...if you haven't already read Heard to Believe by John MacArthur...do read it.
I am praying for the Name of Christ to be Glorified. And trust me, His Name will be Glorified even in the middle of this horrible event by those who LOVE HIM and HIS WORD.
I am praying that all true believers at Bellevue will trust God 'tho He slay' them. And, I am praying that this crisis will drive His own in that church to scriptures to discern truth. I pray that people stop following men because they bear the title: Pastor and start following Christ and the precepts and commands in the Word. ....Starting with me.
God bless you little pink piggie!
12:48 AM, January 29, 2007
Good prayer. Excellent.
Esther wrote:
Gaines must not think this was that big of a deal.
response:
And that is the crux of the matter. They could have saved a lot of paper and a lot of time last night if they had just said that one statement.
Because, basically, after all the meeting, the written report, isn't this what we are left with?
No consequences for anyone, except PW, and he would still be there had it not been for his son and his two friends.
One has to wonder if SG realizes now that it was a big deal, or if he still thinks this is much a do about nothing.
"O LORD, are not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return."
Jeremiah 5:3
"And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment."
Isaiah 59:14-15
"Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known." Matthew 10:26
churchmouse and others...
Sorry...it isn't Heard to Believe. It is Hard to Believe. I need one more cup of coffee. John MacArthur of course.
By the way...I love your name.
"esther, this is a mystery. Was he just trying to avoid more problems, or is something more involved. 2+2 never add up."
You never know but I will only speculate based on what I have seen in other mega's. He may have been trying to prevent a 'scandal' by covering up a 'scandal'. After all, he had only been there a year and was probably thinking, this is all I need right now.
Or,
He is just one of those cheap grace guys that believes you can be a minister and a lying pedophile who rapes his own son for 18 mos and says, I'm sorry and can go on ministering to the church. It may never have occured to Gaines that in order to protect the church physically and spiritually, the man should have been removed immediately.
Either way, it is bad. I agree with the jax guy. Gaines could never pastor me.
So, either he lacks any wisdom and discernment at all. Does not know scripture at all OR, he is driven by ego and pride. Take your pick. There are no other options.
AOG....
Yes, sadly so. However my memories are of a spiritual intensity by a small group that I have rarely found since. Where sin abounds, grace always outbounds. We are comfortable with majority sentiment but God usually empowers the minority. His Spirit is sovereign, right? Something about that still, small voice and 'learning' to listen! It can be a challenging journey many times.
Esther,
If I had to pick one, I would say that he was trying to avoid another scandal. I think there were starting to be murmers about things and he did not want or need a scandal.
I dont think there was a nefarious reason for what he did. I just think he was in over his head, and took the path of least resistance.
Not a good quality for a leader of a 30,000 member church.
"We are comfortable with majority sentiment but God usually empowers the minority"
Amen. We see that all through scripture. Perhaps it is because God wants us to depend on Him only. Then only He can get the Glory.
eprov said "God usually empowers the minority"
Amen to that!He gives us a mountain to move and hands us a spoon. We are tested. Persecuted.
What a pure joy to stand with Jesus.
Be Holy as I am Holy.
Holiness hasn't gotten a really bad name from all the legalism and "phariseeism". Holiness is not how big are your brakes and how much do you not do, but holiness is being so on fire and consumed by the One and Only Holy God, that you are always living within the power of His righteousness.
How can a man be holy, be looking into the face of a perverted, homosexual, abuser and say, "Oh, well" If the Holy Spirit is filling that man, there WILL be action toward holiness! Ignoring sin is never holiness - either in others or ourselves.
This has to be a disgusting scenario to a Holy God!
Dear Friendinjax:
Given your strong feelings now about SG, will you ask Mac Brunson again about SG being a Guest Speaker at your Pastors Conference? I'm not sure Mac would have handled things very differently, to be honest.
Sorry, obviously I meant to say Holiness "HAS gotten..."
sotl, It is sad that he won't just step down. Now the church will wait for 'another' investigation to be completed.
And, there is always the possibility that others were molested and that may not come out for years. We have heard from so many who carried this with them in silence into their adult years.
I would be inclined to believe there are no more victims if he had publicly confessed. But now we know he deceived many for many years. And we know his son did not think it was resolved at all.
The whole thing is breaking my heart. My heart is broken for those who cannot see..for those who have had to relive horrible experiences from their past. These are the consequences of one man's sin. Incredible, huh?
I pray we will all view our sin in this light.
eprov,
As I remember the pastor who was there when I left was a model of the authoritarian, autocratic leader.
sickofthelies said, "If I had to pick one, I would say that he was trying to avoid another scandal."
You are right. Let's face it...he was still defending why he had scaled the fence.
I want to tell you something...this man might be a great professor in a seminary. But I really can't see that he is pastor material. He has just about destroyed one of the greatest church in US history. And I mean that. And he has had some help from the power brokers.
"Sorry, obviously I meant to say Holiness "HAS gotten..." "
lol...I knew that! Typos can be embarrassing when quoting scripture!
P.W. can appartently sell snowballs to eskimos and S.G. bought a truckload. I would like to have been a fly on the pastor's wall six months ago.
Who would like to apply the scripture from the weekend to BBC?
"Who would like to apply the scripture from the weekend to BBC? "
(not raising hand) What scripture?
Well I am no longer amazed or surprised at the comments posted on this blog. There was a time whereby I would not have believed that Godly, Christian people who matured under the leadership of Dr. Rogers would think, much less write some of the comments posted on this blog. I see where immature Christians misuse or have a lack of full understanding of the Scriptures. They publish God’s Words in the form of arguments to support their positions and assumptions. What a dangerous and misuse of Scripture this is.
I read where someone wasn’t satisfied without knowing the name of the deceased pastor. Why, may I ask is that important at this point in time? They also wanted to know the name of the outside psychologist. The committee could not publicly state the name without permission from that person. The only names that could publicly stated were names of persons on staff at Bellevue. But a little common sense should have allowed you the knowledge that this person would not want nor allow their name to be mentioned publicly, especially with the news media on top of this.
I have come to the conclusion that many, if not most of the posters on this board would not be satisfied with the truth. The committee’s report was the truth, without any cover-up. But it did not seem to meet with the satisfaction of most on this site. I think short of Steve Gaines resignation and the resignation of our leadership that many of you will never be satisfied. But one thing you fail to realize. There are a vast majority of us who believe that God called Steve Gaines to be our pastor. Yes, he has made more than a barrel full of errors in judgments and decision making. That is disappointing to us but not to the point of making pastoral changes.
Many of you rally around the fact that Steve Gaines knew of Paul Williams’ sin with his son for 6 months and did nothing. The report clearly states this was wrong. But you want to be so verbose as to claim our children were in danger these last six months. Folks, our children were in danger for 16 ½ years, which my math tells me is far greater than the past 6 months. Yes, Bro. Steve did know, and prior it was a close secret. The fact remains that we’ve lived with this situation for 17 years, but most are only concerned over the last 6 months. A reasonable person (hopefully some can be found on this board) could come to the conclusion that it would be more likely for Paul Williams to have molested a child prior to his confessions to staff. We are also forgetting that we have a powerful God, who can heal a man of anything. Are we so weak in our belief of God’s power not to believe that Paul Williams was not only forgiven 17 years ago, but that God could remove this disgusting desire from his heart? Were you and I forgiven for past transgression of which we no longer participate?
I always have challenged my fellow brothers and sisters at Bellevue when they would say “if they don’t like it, they can leave”. I had a conversation with a member of the committee and expressed this concerns as well as stating that we have a number of our fellow members who are hurting. He agreed and told me that the report would be one that completely to their ability examined the facts and reported the facts to the church with no cover-up. They would also indicate where incorrect decisions and inactions were present. Now that they have done exactly that, many of you are still not satisfied.
Our church will grow and continue to glorify God….with or without you. Now is the time for Biblical responses, not hyperbolic postings which ignite emotions and ignore facts. Now is the time for forgiveness, allowing hate and bitterness to leave our thoughts. Bellevue Baptist Church will continue to grow and learn from these past months. I pray that many of you will begin today with allowing that forgiveness to begin…..and no, someone doesn’t have to ask for forgiveness for that to start. May God bless Bellevue Baptist Church.
jmo, I don't want to argue your post with you. I just want to say that I am very afraid for those who do not understand the Holiness of our God. I say that in pure love to you.
We could be on here all day quoting scriptures that negate your post but without an understanding of the pure Holiness of God it would be for naught. The basic problem is that we do not really fear God.
AOG....
I am almost certain we would be talking about the same reverend. I was on the pulpit committee and didn't vote the call for him. Once he was in he made it clear he did not come to 'shepherd' the existing body, but was going to 'win Memphis for Christ!' I thot that was such a dishonest approach as the church had called him to be their pastor. As you know he totally ruined that church and today they may have 30 or 40 who struggle to hang on! I never questioned his sincerity. I did however have the sense that he was wrong! I left within a few months of his start there. God's design is always greater than ours!!
THe past few weeks there's been all these post by people saying they knew the real truth and as soon as the report was made public we'd see the truth. We'd see Gaines did nothing wrong, etc. How I wish that had been the case. I don't know how you can support the pastor after hearing his actions. It makes me literally sick to my stomach. Under what moralistic umbrella is Gaines hiding under? PW tells Gaines he did these unthinkable acts on his own child for at least a year. Gaines response is to do nothing??? What about Gaines quiet times? His Bible reading? His prayer time? My gosh, where is Steve Gaines conscience? Think about PW's son. He finds out his parents went to Gaines and told him about the 12-18 months of sexual abuse. Nothing happens. I would be thinking, ok, somethings got to be happening. Six months later, the son has to confront Gaines. That must have been a heck of a meeting! I would have asked one question, "Dr. Gaines, you've known for 6 months that you've got an admitted pedphile on staff, WHY IS HE STILL ON STAFF?" Ignorance doesn't work in this situation. Dr Gaines went to seminary, i notice he has that "Dr" before his name, he's responsible for the 30,000 members of BBC. This is the man that supposedly cares about every member of BBC. When it's time to protect the flock from a wolf, Steve Gaines did nothing for 6 months. You don't need policies in place to know what's right and wrong.
justmyopinion...
But does it not concern you that to remain under this leadership will likely mean that problems will continue to surface that he either causes or that he is not capable of dealing with? That you might have a future of dealing with the inadequacies of Gaines' leaderships...his continued error. The tragedy of his error is that the message of Jesus Christ is hindered.
Esther said...
"Who would like to apply the scripture from the weekend to BBC? "
(not raising hand) What scripture?
9:10 AM, January 29, 2007
On Friday, I asked everyone to read the next six chapters of Exodus.
Esther, have you ever read the book of Exodus?
"On Friday, I asked everyone to read the next six chapters of Exodus."
Uh...I was absent on Friday.
"Esther, have you ever read the book of Exodus? "
Yes. Is there a quiz?
People here are talking about being a man's man, and not being effiminate, and understanding the holiness of God.
Who here would like to help apply the final ten chapters of Exodus to Bellevue?
It may require you to take back some of the things that you have said on this blog.
That takes humility.
and it takes courage.
Who here is man enough to read the word of God publicly and accept what it says?
Esther,
are you man enough?
This is not about being out for blood, and perhaps it's my ignorance at work here, but I find it difficult to understand how:
1) A senior pastor with a PhD has had no training or instruction in how to deal with misconduct by a minister under his charge.
2)Allowing that he might possibly have not known specifically how to handle the particular situation, why he didn't dismiss him immediately, due to the fact PW no longer held the Biblical qualifications as a minister, and consulted authorities as to the legal obligations and ramifications involving such a situation. If he was fresh out of seminary and this was his first pastorate, perhaps I could understand it.
JMO,
Perhaps you are too close to the inner circle to see the truth. You know, the "forest for the trees scenario".
It would be nice if you stepped back, sought the Lord and then followed HIS guidance in these matters. I think you would see things differently.
JMO
"Who here is man enough to read the word of God publicly and accept what it says?"
Well, that gets me off the hook cause I'm a gal. But, I will recommend aog for that assignment. :o)
Bible in a Year: Why am I afraid of you?
Mom4, AOG,
I believe you both had read the book of Exodus.
Please let me know if I am wrong.
"Bible-in-a-year said...
Esther,
are you man enough? "
LOL, Rats! I just spewed Starbucks all over my screen!
This is just political posturing we see in city government and in Washington. If you get your man in office, you defend anything he does so you can stay in power. What is missing is the realization that this issue is not just about government, it is the bride of the Creator.
Is the bride being unfaithful?
Esther,
I apologize, I thought you were a guy.
I will speak more kindly to you.
Thank you for your answer.
bible in a year,
I don't believe I've posted anything I should have to take back...you can review what I've posted and get back to me...I'm mostly raising questions here.
JMO said...
"We are also forgetting that we have a powerful God, who can heal a man of anything. Are we so weak in our belief of God’s power not to believe that Paul Williams was not only forgiven 17 years ago, but that God could remove this disgusting desire from his heart? Were you and I forgiven for past transgression of which we no longer participate?"
I am not trying to be argumentative, and I understand where you are coming from with this statement; however, God cleanses us every wit, he makes us white as snow.
Why then would PW need continued counseling if he was delivered?
The desire would no longer be there. Such is the purity of the cleansing of God.
jmo said,
Are we so weak in our belief of God’s power not to believe that Paul Williams was not only forgiven 17 years ago, but that God could remove this disgusting desire from his heart?
Certainly God has the power to forgive. He has the power to do whatever He pleases. (Psalm 115.3) He is God.
But let's just say for the sake of argument that after PW repeatedly raped his teenage son over a period of 12-18 months, that he prays to the Lord and confesses and "repents."
Then why did he spend the next 16 1/2 years *hiding* his behavior in order to keep his job and avoid jail?
Why did he *check in* with his son on a yearly basis to make sure they were *ok*?
Why did he allow his pastor to place him on paid leave for a month and a half while the investigation took place? Did he think he might get to keep his job afterall?
Does that sound like a person who is humbled and repentant before the Lord?
jmo, I'm not trying to be difficult or antagonistic or argumentative, but I think these are legitimate questions that need to be asked.
There are some really applicable texts in the last ten chapters of Exodus. I suggest people at least look over the outline.
I'll come back later.
"Esther,
I apologize, I thought you were a guy.
I will speak more kindly to you.
Thank you for your answer."
Reply:
You know a lot of guys named Esther? You from Mississippi? :o)
Anyway, I can take it like a man if need be. I am reading it tonight. Can I report back in tommorrow in humility?
mom4,
I would think continued counseling would be appropriate considering the nature of the offense, if for no other reason, regular accountability. Though he may never repeat the offense, he may always have to deal with a temptation. jmo
JMO and the dwindling supporters of SG,
You rail at the posts of some here. You claim BBC will continue to grow and glorify God. Are you 100% sure that 17 years from now after SG has led the church to more church growth and Godly glorification that a 20 something or 30 something adult won't come forward and tell a horrible story about a likely long forgotten terrible chapter in BBC's history and then completely destroy BBC and all the works that SG had accomplished at that time? It would seem the prudent thing to do to relieve all of these men from leadership and wipe the slate clean so that if that ever happens the church has a clean heart and can deal with it vs ducking for cover and not following the biblical standards set forth. I pray that thought of mine never comes to pass but given how many who have posted here actually came to deal with such abuse it seems a distinct possibility.
imaresistor said...
But does it not concern you that to remain under this leadership will likely mean that problems will continue to surface that he either causes or that he is not capable of dealing with? That you might have a future of dealing with the inadequacies of Gaines' leaderships...his continued error. The tragedy of his error is that the message of Jesus Christ is hindered.
9:31 AM, January 29, 2007
Reply: I am constantly reminded of the Bibical picture of a woman in travail. It appears that Bellevue is in travail. We are waiting to see what is born of this.
ju wrote: Are you 100% sure that 17 years from now after SG has led the..."
You also have to understand that the church WILL grow under Gaines.
People who think it is that easy will flock to the church. First, of all, it is easy to not be accountable in a mega. Secondly, Bellevue under Steve Gaines has shown unbelievers just how cheap grace really is. No falling on your face repentance. No Godly sorrow. No narrow gate. No fruit needed. No sanctification. Just say, "Sorry" and it is all over and you can play church. The 'world' will love it.
Just My Opinion said:
"Our church will grow and continue to glorify God….with or without you. Now is the time for Biblical responses, not hyperbolic postings which ignite emotions and ignore facts. Now is the time for forgiveness, allowing hate and bitterness to leave our thoughts. Bellevue Baptist Church will continue to grow and learn from these past months."
25+ says:
You speak of biblical responses? The biblical response should have come as soon as the leadership at Bellevue knew what this minister had done. That fact is now beyond dispute.
In the letters to the churches in Revelation, the Lord Jesus threatens on more than one occasion to remove a candlestick unless there is repentance. Your assumption of growth may not be valid--even for Bellevue.
Go look at what is left of the mighty churches of Asia Minor. This is about the kingdom of God. His kingdom is built on truth. The Lord Jesus walks among the candlesticks and He knows our works. He alone will decide on the status of the candlestick on Appling Rd.
eprov said "God usually empowers the minority"
This statement gives me hope, not only for BBC but for me personally. I have a sign up in my office that I think says it all on this subject: "What is popular is not always right. What is right is not always popular."
Pinker Socks said: But, I think what grieves me the most is the lack of discernment of the people of Bellevue!
AMEN!
just my opinion said: I have come to the conclusion that many, if not most of the posters on this board would not be satisfied with the truth. The committee’s report was the truth, without any cover-up. But it did not seem to meet with the satisfaction of most on this site.
Reply: The committee's report was fine; the question is What now? Laws were ignored, children were endangered, families were broken....because "someone" DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO????? He should have known...he had scripture, access to lawyers, and God-given discernment...yet he used none of these resources. IT WAS WRONG. PERIOD. Forgiveness can be granted but consequences still have to be paid. And....if SG has made so many errors in judgement over the last year or so, what will happen when the next "crisis" comes? In a church of this size, it will come. BBC needs a wise leader, one that seeks God's face and studies all of scripture.
bible in a year,
Ok..I've reviewed, though a quick scan, the last 10 chapters of Exodus...instructions for the building of the tabernacle, sacrifices, etc., the golden calf, Moses standing in the gap over the people's sin, God's delayed judgement for the sin. Israel setting out for the promised land. Ok, let's hear your application.
esther said, "You know a lot of guys named Esther? You from Mississippi? :o)"
Me and Marcelle are.
allofgrace said...
mom4,
I would think continued counseling would be appropriate considering the nature of the offense, if for no other reason, regular accountability. Though he may never repeat the offense, he may always have to deal with a temptation. jmo
9:57 AM, January 29, 2007
Sorry AOG, here we disagree. I believe that God cleanses entirely, as white as snow.
Especially in a ministerial position, PW would have been in the Word daily (or should have been). I do not see that the cleansing of God leaves room for a falling away if you are truly repentant and in His Word.
I believe the man lied about his repentance. If it were "under the blood" as Steve Gaines said, it would not have been an issue either with his son nor the church because Paul would have made it right in all aspects. He hid (like Adam and Eve in the garden) because he had the burden of shame and guilt weighing him down. That does not sound like someone making things right before man and God to me.
aog wrote: "bible in a year,
Ok..I've reviewed, though a quick scan, the last 10 chapters of Exodus...instructions for the building of the tabernacle, sacrifices, etc., the golden calf, Moses standing in the gap over the people's sin, God's delayed judgement for the sin. Israel setting out for the promised land. Ok, let's hear your application. "
Yeah, especially illuminate us on the 'effiminate' part you mentioned earlier.
Offline...er...not really...on another project.
mom4, If he had been turned in, he might have been doing mandatory counseling in prison. Remember, I met some of them during an interview...they were in a 'counseling' group.
Not one of the pedophiles we interviewed (there were 25)sodomized their own children. I just thought of that...how strange.
really really gone this time.
just my opinion wrote:
"I read where someone wasn’t satisfied without knowing the name of the deceased pastor. Why, may I ask is that important at this point in time? They also wanted to know the name of the outside psychologist. The committee could not publicly state the name without permission from that person. The only names that could publicly stated were names of persons on staff at Bellevue. But a little common sense should have allowed you the knowledge that this person would not want nor allow their name to be mentioned publicly, especially with the news media on top of this."
I agree. Please refrain from mentioning any names from this situation that weren't specifically mentioned in the report.
"The committee’s report was the truth, without any cover-up."
Time will tell, but you may have to eat those words.
Bellevue: I weep with you for your anguish and grief, but I also pray daily that you will turn your righteous anger into action. Lindon, you say that you "can't think of one" Christian man who wouldn't take action in these circumstances. Sadly and very tragically, I can think of many - including many Baptist ministers and leaders. And, as a mother, I have pondered your same question over and over again. How can men such as this - men who are themselves fathers - turn a blind eye to those who prey on the young? How is it possible that anyone who was a parent would not see the urgency of taking action? The evil done by individuals who molest kids is not much of a mystery. What remains incomprehensible to me - and what utterly confounds me - is the silence of the many - the silence of so many others who choose to turn a blind eye and who fail to take action.
I find it interesting that PW never sought counseling for his son. That is still another form of parental neglect and abuse. If there had been any true repentance on PW's part, he would have sought counseling for his son so as to try to minimize the damage and lessen the long-lasting harm of sexual abuse. It's as though he ruptured his son's spleen with violence and then, to make matters worse, left him to slowly bleed out internally rather than taking him for help.
The report notes the staff's practice of keeping sensitive matters secret "to protect the church from embarassment" and says: "This feeling is not only found in Bellevue Baptist church but also is prevalent across churches in general." This is true. What happened at Bellevue has happened at churches all across the country - and most have greatly fewer resources for dealing with it. It's why national SBC leadership MUST step up to the plate and provide congregations with the resources they need to appropriately deal with clergy abuse and to better protect kids. As the report states: "The events relating to the PW issue have vividly brought to light the need for change."
Christa Brown,
SNAP-Baptist coordinator and founder of Voice to Stop Baptist Predators
mom4,
I wasn't really referring to our position in Christ..rather our condition at any given time. Repentance isn't a once-for-all thing...it's the lifestyle of a Christian. I would agree that a lack of repentance would certainly warrant a hard look at our position..."make your calling and election sure"..."examine yourselves to see if you be in the faith"..."work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"...however I think we all have to repent of something every day...or maybe it's just me. Repentance also doesn't remove the flesh with it's desires, and in which "dwelleth no good thing"...Rom. 7 tells us of this struggle we have as long as we walk this earth. "who shall deliver me from this body of death?"...it's only by God's grace that we don't behave just like a lost man..we never lose that capability in this life, but we should be progressively losing the desire to in sanctification...a definitive change of affections. Some people have an accountability partner or group, which meet regularly to ask each other hard questions...to keep vigilance...that is the context in which I referred to PW's counseling.
I've got to chime in here: Bryan Miller was one who knew of the abuse done by PW. Bryan Miller is an educator of children at ECS (Evangelical Christian School) - his lack of discernment in the area of what do to do should chill ECS parents to the bone. Bryan Miller had the experience in reporting child abuse; he should have insisted that SG do something at that moment - Bryan Miller is just as culpable as any who knew in June.
Did anyone find it funny that Jaime Fish baptized on Sunday night - the very night his name is in a report about pedophilia and his lack of action? I just found it ironic. I feel he should have been on his face in repentace and yet he baptized? Just my personal feeling.
What about the fact that David Brown posted a while back that the staff had been through a training about reporting child abuse?
What about Mike Stavaropolous of HR MPACT (whatever the name is) - doesn't seem to be too "independent" when Wayne Vandersteeg has an interest in that company, now does it?
Friendinjax, you are right on - our pastor is a disgrace and nothing better than a girly man!
Anyone who agrees that the report is truthful and believes that Paul Williams is safe now that he's confessed and been seeing a counselor, please ask him to babysit your kids. Go ahead, I dare you!
Ace, your treatment of sickofthelies brought you down to an all time low, my friend. I spoke with David Coombs after the 9:30 service yesterday and he confirmed to me that you email a lot and participate on this blog. I also told him my name and you know my name - go compare notes.
karen
karen
I find Mrs. PW just as culpable in this situation - she knew for 14 years (17 years ago minus the 3 years after it happened when she found out) and kept it a secret. Keeping a job at a "status" church was more important than protecting her children? No wonder thier daughter serves in a foreign country!
Mrs. PW lead many women's groups in the past - wonder if she taught on how to protect your husband first over your children?
karen
Everyone,
All questions about "ace" and his or her identity need to be taken offline! This forum is NOT about "ace" and it's getting really, really old.
Also, please simply ignore people who just want to come here to stir up trouble and don't contribute anything to the discussion. Don't address them. Don't ask them questions. They only want attention for themselves and to divert your attention away from why we're here. You know who they are! Now do the right thing!
NBBCOF
curiousindallas...
I'd like to ask you to email me.
Ima
Ester wrote: “……Secondly, Bellevue under Steve Gaines has shown unbelievers just how cheap grace really is. No falling on your face repentance. No Godly sorrow. No narrow gate. No fruit needed. No sanctification.”
Salvation for the unbeliever is free; Jesus paid the ultimate, sacrificial price for you and me. And I have never once felt that Steve Gaines was preaching a message any differently. But I can understand that you would expect a person to pay a price for salvation as you are now expecting a payment from Steve Gaines. But the Lord already paid our price and has offered that to us freely through grace…..
Yes, we as Christians are to be repentant, show Godly sorrow, and produce fruit. But not in order to be saved but because of our salvation…
If you are looking for believers that must meet the criteria of fruit bearing to gain their salvation, then you need to align yourself with a group that lives by those doctrines. Our church does not teach a works salvation obtainment.
Karen said...
"I find Mrs. PW just as culpable in this situation..."
I had thought about this Karen...and I have to agree with you. There is much could be said on this topic isn't there.
Pride goeth before destruction.
Karen,
Ace, your treatment of sickofthelies brought you down to an all time low, my friend. I spoke with David Coombs after the 9:30 service yesterday and he confirmed to me that you email a lot and participate on this blog. I also told him my name and you know my name - go compare notes.
What is this suppose to me? Really, I don't understand it...could you explain in another post or shoot me an email please?
Thanks,
Ace
Just my opinion said, " And I have never once felt that Steve Gaines was preaching a message any differently."
It is like my dad used to tell me..."What you do speaks so much louder than what you say." Any pastor can get behind the pulpit and preach what we refer to as a 'good sermon', but if he doesn't live it...he is a false teacher.
jmo,
Are you sure we don't repent before our salvation?
That's not a "works-righteousness" salvation, that's Biblical.
Luke 5:32
I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.
Luke 13:3
No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish
Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Acts 17:30
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Seems like repentance is pretty important when it comes to salvation. If I misunderstood your post, my apologies.
Liberty, the report said he did not get a severence package.
However, I consider the 6 weeks paid leave severence. How old is PW? Anyone know?
Human nature tells us to minimize our behavior so that we don't look as wrong as we really are. It makes us feel better about our wrong actions because we now perceive that others don't think as lowly of us as we know they should. This is a self-serving reaction that is a prideful tactic and does not reflect true repentance.
Humility means “not serving self,” and in this case, not shifting the blame to JF or WW, but accepting it yourself. JF and WW are wrong also, but that is a different issue than the one I make here. SG was conspicuously portrayed as innocent other than a mistake made, not of his own will, but because of a lack of knowledge of who does what on staff, and because he followed the lead of JF and WW, and the claim that no one ever told him what to do if a staff member molested a child.
BM is not an educator, but rather a manager of an educational business. Educators handle the education and BM oversees the business. He is not a trained, licensed educator so that point doesn't fit. However, he like the others, know better regardless of how the minimization and blame-shifting cards are played.
Your attention, please.
I STRONGLY encourage those that have OPPOSING VIEWS to post on this forum. True debate is HEALTHY. I STRONGLY urge BOTH SIDES to engage in a HEALTHY DEBATE on the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.
However, I just as STRONGLY urge those, such as ACE, DEACON 4545 & others, who frequently post for the sole purpose of being antagonistic and disruptive, not to attempt to detract with their antagonistic posts. Should they do so, which is their right, I STRONGLY urge posters on BOTH sides not to respond to those types of antagonistic posts that serve NO CONSTRUCTIVE PURPOSE, but ONLY attempt to detract from the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.
2007
allofgrace said...
bible in a year,
Ok..I've reviewed, though a quick scan, the last 10 chapters of Exodus...instructions for the building of the tabernacle, sacrifices, etc., the golden calf, Moses standing in the gap over the people's sin, God's delayed judgement for the sin. Israel setting out for the promised land. Ok, let's hear your application.
10:16 AM, January 29, 2007
Thank you for reading.
I'm doubting my manliness. I may not be able to make the application after all.
I may have to just be silent and let people either
1) Have less discernment than I and are so emotional that I am afraid of their wrath if I show them what them will not like
2) Have the same or greater discernment and know exactly what I am referring to but they are not wanting people to see the obvious application because it doesnt fit their agenda.
Are you sure you don't see what I am referring to?
new bbc open forum wrote: "Time will tell, but you may have to eat those words."
It is interesting that you quickly take the assumption of bias on this. I have yet to have to recall any facts that I've posted nor have I seen any facts presented by the church having to be recanted. What I have witnessed is people making assumptions, posting gossip, and clear slander present. But rarely do I see where NBOF has rebuked them as readily as those of us who are supporting our leadership. I have no issues with those who oppose my opinions but whereby known truths are questioned I do have a concern. Unless someone can clearly and definitely point out untruths and errors in the report given last night then those in opposition should remain at best silent.
And yes NBOF I stand willing and ready to eat those words should someone prove dishonesty in the report presented last night. I would hope that all the gossipers, slanders and assumers would have to take the same recourse of action. What say ye NBOF? Shall you rebuke those who tell untruths on your website?
Ima and Karen: I, too, thought about Mrs. W. As a mother, I just CAN'T understand. I find it hard to believe that God left both PW and Mrs. PW alone during that 17/14 years. I believe the Holy Spirit would have been bringing me to my knees....yet that doesn't seem to have happened. I find that disturbing.
Christa, It must be pride but I want to correct something.
I was re-posting something from the last thread. I agree with what friendinjax said about how Steve Gaines responded to this. And I think his analysis is right on about Steve 'choking' at the critical moment. He blew it.
I can see your point about knowing many 'Chrisian men' who would not report something like this. After jax's post, I thought about this for a long time.
You think you know how people are going to react based upon your knowledge of them and their character. But we know that circumstances can bring out the worst in people when the foundation is not solid.
Liberty,
According to the report, PW did not receive a severance package.
"Paul Williams’ termination of employment with Bellevue Baptist Church was effective January 22, 2007. This termination was given without any severance considerations."
I would like to know whether any agreements at all were obtained from PW in return for any guarantees by the church or staff like "you don't say anything about X and we won't say anything about Y."
The biggest issue to come out of the report is what it doesn't recommend, to wit, any action at all against those who harbored PW. It mandates training, but (I believe) David Brown said they've already been trained. So their discipline is the boredom of taking it again?
lindon wrote: "Liberty, the report said he did not get a severence package.
However, I consider the 6 weeks paid leave severence. How old is PW? Anyone know?"
Lindon, you may have missed this statement earlier. For the record, the reason Paul Williams remained on staff was in order to secure his co-operation with the investigation. As an employee he could be compelled to testify but if he was terminated he would have no reason to speak with the committee. The leadership felt it wise to have Paul available to speak with them to get as much information as possible. There was no further servence or package available to Paul Williams other than his retirement program (401K) of which he was vested.
bible in a year,
Since you are the one who brought up the particular passages, I wanted to hear your own application. One potential application you may be driving at, though I don't know since I can't read your mind, is standing in the gap for the sins of all involved?..but then, I'm not sure why you think that isn't being done...you'll have to clarify...waiting for your application.
Christa Brown wrote:
"The report notes the staff's practice of keeping sensitive matters secret "to protect the church from embarassment" and says: "This feeling is not only found in Bellevue Baptist church but also is prevalent across churches in general." This is true."
Well, you can see how that worked out. What might have been a temporary, uncomfortable moment in the life of Bellevue that would have been over and done with quickly, has turned into a national embarrassment. Nice going, fearless leaders!
biay,
You can email it to me if you're afraid of others' responses.
Here is a portion of the Investigative team's January 28, 2007 statement as it appears on bellevue.org...
"Paul Williams never sought counsel for himself or his son until recently, and then only after that counseling was initiated by his son. Paul said he checked every year or so to make sure all was right between him and his son.
Paul felt everything was fine between them until November 2005, when his son approached him saying that not everything had been resolved and the son and his family were going to take a separation in their relationship with Paul and his wife for a period of time. At that point, the circle of knowledge about Paul’s sexual activities with his son started to grow. His son and daughter-in-law had sought counseling from a non-Bellevue psychologist. After November 2005, Paul and his wife, along with his son and daughter-in-law, were counseled as a group.
Throughout 2006, other people gained knowledge of the seventeen-year-old issue, beginning with another retired Bellevue staff member, Jamie Fish of the Biblical Guidance office, Pastor Steve Gaines, Webb Williams, and others within the church family.
At least ten people, including Paul and his wife, had knowledge prior to December 7, 2006, when Paul’s son and two friends came to the Pastor about the seventeen-year-old issue and about Paul’s position on staff at Bellevue. Paul was out of town at that time. After he returned to the city, he was placed on a leave of absence December 15, 2006, pending the outcome of the current investigation. The announcement of that leave of absence was made to the congregation December 17."
***********
I think that Paul William's son brought two friends with him when he met with Steve Gaines in order to fulfill the Matthew 18:16-17 scripture. He did the honorable thing. After having endured this horror, HE did what was RIGHT according to the Word of God. Hallelujah! To God be the glory!
Dee
all2jesus wrote:
"According to the report, PW did not receive a severance package."
Well, at the least he got a 6-week paid vacation.
About Mrs. PW...
It is not unusual AT ALL for the mother to be complicit in the actions of her perpetrator husband.
Throughout my struggle for freedom from my horrible memories, I have been in many support groups. And in those support groups, it is difficult to determine just who the women are the maddest: the mother or the father.
Mothers should protect their children. THAT is their FIRST job.
There is so much anger at their
(our) mothers for not protecting us.
Now we know that Mrs. PW knew about it ( supposedly) 3 years after it happened. Yet she STAYED with a man who would do this to her child???? Mrs. P.W. knew that her husband was on staff and was a fake, did she know that he was counseling women who had been sexually abused?
What message did it send to her son, who had been brutally raped by his father, that she would stay with a man that did this?
Let me answer that, based on my own personal experience:
It said: you dont' count. what happened to you is not as important as my meal ticket, my status in the community, my nice house, my nice car.
And then to think that she did not even insist on counseling for her son grieves my heart. But we all know why they could not get counseling for her son, don't we?
They were afraid that their dirty little secret would get out and then their house of cards would come tumbling down.
"At least ten people...had prior knowledge"...
And WHERE, might I ask, was any help for the victim. Out of all those people at the church, WHERE was his aid? The Lord Himself had to lead him as to what to do in order to shed the purifying light on the whole dirty matter.
Dee
I’ve been “lurking” here for months but this is my first time to post. I was present for last night’s presentation of the report. I can’t get these thoughts out of my head….
This young man’s father perpetrated the most horrendous of acts imaginable against him.
His mother, once she knew, for all intents and purposes, participated in the secret and did nothing to protect him.
As an adult, he begins to deal with this issue and his father, I’m sure, is forced to reveal his secret to the powers that be at Bellevue. I can imagine he felt that finally, after years of secrecy and emotional trauma, the right thing would be done.
Unlike the Minister of Biblical Guidance of the largest church in the SBC, the Sr. Pastor of the largest church in the SBC, and licensed psychologists……this young man apparently knew that his father should not still be on staff at the largest church in the SBC.
Can you imagine how he must have felt when he knew his father finally went to “confess.” I’m sure the myriad of emotions cannot be comprehended by those of us who have not been touched by this sin. Fear of what others will say/think, relief that the secret is finally out, confident that the powers that be at Bellevue would do the right thing.
Now imagine waiting, waiting, waiting only for nothing to be done….again. Since it was not mentioned, I am assuming he received not even a phone call of support from the staff. Just another round of “keeping the circle tight.”
Can you imagine having to go to the sr. pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church and ask why NOTHING had been done?
This all makes me physically ill…..
All employees with prior knowledge of the molestation should resign their positions immediately. What was the real motivation for not speaking out immediately? Could it be the same as PW…..to retain their positions with the largest church in the SBC? No one has ever had to write on their resume “former sr. pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church.” Think about it….
After a little Google search, I found the following information:
Mike Stavarapolous, works for HR MPACT here in Memphis
He is the "independent" HR person used in the PW investigation.
Go to hr-mpact.com/partner.html which lists who HR Mpact partners with:
Weintraub, Stock & Grisham is a listed as a partner - also involved in the PW investigation.
Strategic Financial Parterns is listed as a partner - the Managing Partner of this firm is Russ Vandersteeg.
Wayne Vandersteeg is Russ Vantersteeg's father - Wayne is head of the Personnel Committee.
C'mon people - can you not see how all this is connected? Just connect the dots yourself. There was nothing "independent" about the investigation.
karen
2manyquestions,
For a 1st post, you sure hit the nail on the head! You post away - you have a grasp of what we're facing at BBC. Thank you for your insight.
karen
AOG,
I said the other day, and I want to say again:
You remind me of Jesus.
Why don't I back up a little bit and present some of the other texts form the last chapters?
Mondays are always hard because how to present 9-10 chapters of application??
And there are lots of things that apply to BBC.
For a fun example, let's go back to the conversation about can a church copyright a worship service?
Did you know that they whole idea of a "patent" or "trademark" or "copyright" originates in the Bible, here in these ten chapters of Exodus?
Look at
30:31-33 and 30:37-38
These are the annointing oil and fragrant incense.
God gives the exact formula so anyone has the ability to make it. But then God turns around and says that nobody should make anything like it except for the exclusive use by the leadership. This is the essence of copyright/TM/patent.
You also see God's first use of an "independent outside contractor". That is, God went outside of the Levites to the tribe of Dan and Judah to get Bezalel and Oholiab to oversee the building of the Tabernacle.
No bidding! And they got exclusive right to handle the production of these things. The Bible does give their full family backgrounds so we know if there was any "conflict of interest", etc. They handle sub-contracting because God led other people to work under their leadership and training. (First use of training by outside experts)
I am constantly amazed at people who think the Bible is irrelevant in modern times. Some Christians don't even go to the scriptures the way they should.
Welcome 2manyquestions
Are you a Christian?
Are you sure?
JMO, Please read all in context and know this is just for starters. Please let me know which ones are 'works' because each one 'requires' something of us:
Matthew 7
Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
Matt 21
43Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him."
Hebrews 10:26-31
26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
John 14
15"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
John 14
21Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."
John 15
10If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love
Romans 10
1Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
1 Corinthians 7
19For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.
1 John 2
3And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2
4Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
1 John 3
1Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
John 5
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
1 John 5
3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
2 John 1
6And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.
Revelation 14:12
12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.[a]
Mark 10
29Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, 30who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life. 31But many who are first will be last, and the last first."
Matt 18
"Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! 8And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell[c] of fire.
1 John 3:
4Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
2 Thessalonians 4
2For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3For this is the will of God, your sanctification:[c] that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, 5not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. 7For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness. 8Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.
2 Corinthians 7
1Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.
Eph 4
17Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. 20But that is not the way you learned Christ!-- 21assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
2 Peter 3
14Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
Phil 2
12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
Let me just say this about counseling at BBC. For any women who had been previously counseled at BBC by PW, do not be fooled into thinking that the 'new' counseling is going to be of independent thought.
What are you going to go in there and say? That you are furious with SG? And based on the report, how do you think they will react to your anger at SG?
They will minimize it becuase they will not be independent from SG. They will not say anything to you that will validate your pain becuase to do so, would put SG in a bad light. And you KNOW, based on the report, that is NOT going to happen.
And last but certainly not least, your file is not safe in the counseling office. After all, when I called up there to get my file, I was called by David Coombs, businessman and Administrative Associate Pastor. Why did my file leave the couseling office? Will they use the contents of my file against me? Who has read my file while it floated around DC's office? Did DC leak my name to someone on this blog who posted my initials? Was that an effort to silence me?
Do not be fooled. Any counseling you get at BBC will be self serving and NOT confidential.
Ask me how I know.
Karen- Why do you always think of the worst outcome possible? Why do you and others live like someone is always out to get you and like there are black clouds around every corner? Why does everything always have to involve some kind of conspiracy?
I do not mean this is an attack in any way, but that is a very sad way to live.
The report attempts to spread the burden of responsibility to report the PW matter to "ten" people. But there's something you may not have noticed.
At least ten people, including Paul and his wife, had knowledge prior to December 7, 2006, when Paul’s son and two friends came to the Pastor about the seventeen-year-old issue and about Paul’s position on staff at Bellevue.
Note the padding? PW and his wife are included in that number. If they are included, so is the son. It seems reasonable, then, to include the two friends of the son. That's five people -- half the number.
So who in authority knew? The report mentions Jamie Fish, Steve Gaines and Webb Williams. Mark Dougharty and Brian Miller are mentioned as material witnesses (i.e., they knew.) Rather than being one of ten who could and should have taken action, Steve Gaines is more likely one of five. Three of them are Steve Gaines' subordinates and Miller is a loyalist. These men would follow SG's lead, just like the ones who ill-advisedly followed him over a certain infamous fence.
So we see this attempt to dilute the blame by spreading it around for what it is: a total sham. Should Jamie Fish have said something when he found out? Yes. But once Steve Gaines found out, he was the complete authority and the others toed the line. End of story.
I am very shocked to hear from Friendinjax that you would have wanted SG to punch PW and tie him up. I do not agree with what SG did do, but I hardly think that that would have been an appropriate response. First of all that would have only resulted in a law suit against SG, which would have made it's way to this blog and more than likely been used against him. I don't think that if he had done that, that everyone on this site would have all of a sudden championed him.
As far as the feminization of pastors goes... It is a problem much bigger than that, it is the feminization of our Country. It's not just pastors. We all have become feminized, how do I know this? We are all blogging under anonymous names and email addresses. I remember reading in previous posts when you all were emailing about the Pastor's Conference that you all emailed anonymously. As you said Friendinjax Dr. Brunson acted un-feminized (if that is a word :)) by not responding.
My point we can all make a difference but it will have to be through being open and honest. If Dr. Brunson or Pastor Gaines will not meet with you then, you may have something to blog about. I would suggest scheduling a meeting with either one of them and sitting down (with an open mind) and talking about your concerns. It's the same with we do with our children, we want them to come to us with concerns and talk to us about them.
What I am really scared of, is that we are carying each other further away from Jesus... like we have accused all of these pastors of doing. We think what we are doing is right, and we have drifted away into blogging negative comments and speculations. When was the last time anyone blogged about somethign that God did in their life? God has been good to us all, and we should be focusing on that. I love you all, and I am praying for you all.
karen said...
Mike Stavarapolous, works for HR MPACT here in Memphis.
REPLY:
He at ONE TIME was employed by Impact Logistics, ie David Hamilton & Wayne D. Vandersteeg.
Do you see any similarity between the names HR Mpact and Impact Logistics?
I wonder if DCS will... investigate PW for his ENTIRE TIME AS MINISTER or for ONLY THE LAST 17 YEARS????
The weight of walking through the doors of BBC is commensurate with the weight of walking through the valley of the shadow of death..
I cannot imagine going into that sanctuary again.
David, can there still possibly be a removal of these men who knew by law?
God Bless and Heal all who have lived through these tortures. God help any little one who may be keeping this a secret to tell someone THAT WILL PROTECT THEM AND PROSECUTE THE MOLESTER!!
Charlie,
Impact Missions, Inc. also jumps out at me - one of 2 counselors offered by BBC.
karen
Bible in a year: What about the fact that the Temple veil was torn at the Cross? Does that have any bearing on what you are saying about the passages in Ex and the Levites?
Charlie,
Also on my Google search, Impact Logistics and Impact Technologies are listed at partners with HR-MPACT.
karen
karen said...
Impact Missions, Inc. also jumps out at me - one of 2 counselors offered by BBC.
Also on my Google search, Impact Logistics and Impact Technologies are listed at partners with HR-MPACT.
BINGO!!! Ladies and Gents we have a WINNER
I have never heard this discussed, but someone may be able to answer this. How old was Paul Williams's son when the abuse took place?
Steve Gaines was guilty of not reporting and may be forgiven; however, he should still face the consequences. Even if there are not legal consequences, there should be consequences from the church!
However, there were others who were just as culpable--it doesn't matter if you are a senior pastor or the janitor. For instance, what about Webb Williams and Jamie Fish? Jamie is a counselor--he should know better! Should they not also face the consequences? I knew I had to report abuse when I was a twenty-something year old youth minister. These guys knew--or certainly should have known! (Just my opinion.)
2006Huldah said...
"I think that Paul William's son brought two friends with him when he met with Steve Gaines in order to fulfill the Matthew 18:16-17 scripture. He did the honorable thing. After having endured this horror, HE did what was RIGHT according to the Word of God. Hallelujah! To God be the glory!"
You know Dee...you are probably right! I have wondered why Williams approached Gaines in June, then young Williams approached him in December. CW expected SG to do what was right after his dad approached him and he (CW) was offended when he (S) did not. So...Matthew 18. It is speculation, but makes perfect sense. I want CW to do what he feels the Lord is leading him to do...but wouldn't he and David Brown work well together.
lindon, I don't understand what you are asking. Are you asking if this is what we as Christians should be held to or are you asking if we need to do this for our salvation? If it's the later, I can save you some research time and limit your copying of Scriptures. I BELIEVE THAT MY SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT FROM GOD, period, end of sentence.
I would never take anything away from the sacrifice that Christ made to pay the price for my salvation. Dr. Rogers would say that we do follow those things (verses you've mentioned) because we are saved BUT not in order that we be saved. I believe in salavation by Grace and that salvation brings me to have Jesus as my Lord and Master. I am to please my Lord and Master in order to glorify Him for what He did for me at Calvary.
Karen,
Since you did not address my post earlier to you today, I have sent you an email.
Thanks,
Ace
Tell me folks...
Does forgiveness remove the consequence of sin one against the other?
I would really like to hear replies to this one.
Liberty said,
"How tragic this is where BBC should be a refuge for you but has now become a refuge for scoundrels."
Reply: A large part of the membership of BBC has existed for over a year without the refuge of a church home. Many have left their membership at BBC and are fed as guests at another's table.
bible in a year,
To gain a good understanding of the OT scriptures, a study of the typology in these will be helpful: The Law and prophets, the Levitical priesthood, the Davidic kingdom.
Also, I pose these questions to you...what is represented in the annointing oil? Why did God restrict it's use to the priests?
Notice where the fragrant incense is placed in the Tent of meeting. What is represented in the fragrant incense?
Also, go to the book of Numbers..notice how the tribes have different skills etc, that they are noted for. The tribe of Levi had one thing and one thing only which they did.
iamaresistor:
NO, forgiveness of sin does in no way remove the consequences of it. We are free to choose, but we are not free to choose the consequences--even in light of forgiveness. Just an example that comes to mind: David was forgiven after he confessed his sin with Bathsheba, but the child still died.
Lindon...
1 John 3 says a WHOLE lot!
Great scripture verses for us all to ponder.
Dee
Note: Yes, sin has consequences but it's up to God for them to come. It's not NASS' job or Jim Haywood's job or Ace's job...or anyone's job. It's God's job and it's as simple as that.
People here are feeling the need to move God's hand and those people should watch themselves carefully. I have a huge post and it should come either tonight or tomorrow to clarify on this and to address other things as a result of this blog.
Ima said,
"Does forgiveness remove the consequence of sin one against the other?"
Reply:
Ima, I will try that one.
Christ paid the penalty of our sin, which was death. He removed that consequence if we accept Him.
If we sin after we accept Christ, and we repent, he is faithful to forgive us. If we don't repent, we are told, the Lord chastens us. Do we experience consequences for our sin when we are saved and forgiven?
You bet. Since the Law and the teachings of Christ are ultimately for our own good, the consequences of our sin often follow as a result of our actions, like ripples on a pool.
Karen- Why do you always think of the worst outcome possible? Why do you and others live like someone is always out to get you and like there are black clouds around every corner? Why does everything always have to involve some kind of conspiracy?
I do not mean this is an attack in any way, but that is a very sad way to live.
Does forgiveness remove the consequence of sin one against the other?
Absolutely not.
Gal 6.7
Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.
JMO: lindon, I don't understand what you are asking. Are you asking if this is what we as Christians should be held to or are you asking if we need to do this for our salvation? If it's the later, I can save you some research time and limit your copying of Scriptures. I BELIEVE THAT MY SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT FROM GOD, period, end of sentence."
Everyones salvation is a free gift. Was yours a one time deal? Did you come forward, say a prayer and be baptized? And that is it forever? Do you have to DO anything after that?
Check out Jesus' first sermons in Matthew and Mark. What did He preach?
(I do not believe that we can 'accept' Christ. It says that now where in scripture. I believe the Holy Spirit opens our hearts, quickens us, awakens us...like Lydia. Jesus never said, open your heart and accept me into it.)
You accused me of 'works' salvation. Works are things we do that we think will get us into heaven. Like teaching Sunday School or being an elder or a missionary. None of those things are bad but they will not get us into heaven without repentance and faith in Christ. Growing in Holiness and repentance are continual. We never stop until heaven but we 'mature' as Christians. But we cannot keep on sinning willfully and expect to go to heaven.
Without Holiness we will not see God.
"I would never take anything away from the sacrifice that Christ made to pay the price for my salvation. Dr. Rogers would say that we do follow those things (verses you've mentioned) because we are saved BUT not in order that we be saved."
If we are saved we will hunger and thirst for His Word, for Righteousness. We will hate what God hates and love what God loves. Just like Jesus. He puts that in our hearts.
Can you name one person in scripture that God hated?
" I believe in salavation by Grace and that salvation brings me to have Jesus as my Lord and Master. I am to please my Lord and Master in order to glorify Him for what He did for me at Calvary. "
Which means continual repentance and growing in Holiness.
I don't think you get it or you would understand why the situation with Gaines is so serious.
iamresistor said...
"I want CW to do what he feels the Lord is leading him to do...but wouldn't he and David Brown work well together."
Yes, it's funny you said this because the exact same thing went through my head.
Dee
There was an invitation to jump in and post unbiased opinions. As a pastor in training, I have intermitantly been checking, mostly as training for myself re issues, dynamics and politics I may face in my new calling. I read the report and responses and here's my observations.
1. Man, some of you guys are mean. I've been in the corporate world, at all levels, for the past 19 years in about the most godless environment on the continent and never seen such public hostilities and unforgiving natures. I'm not sure if I'm ready for that.
2. Both sides have dug in so much at this point that nothing anyone does would pursuade anyone on the "other" side to change their mind. The visual that I have based on I Cor is one side of the body is hitting the other, the other is hitting back and they've worked themselves into a frenzy. I once had a dog that did that with his tail :)
3. All of you take an extreme amount of pride in "your" church. I don't know how many times I've seen you guys (on both sides) refer to yourselves as "great", "influentual", powerful, etc. I'm not sure Christ would necessarally feel that way at this point (remember, he's reading the blog too). p.s. if you haven't felt it yet, he's been tapping you on the shoulder for the past several months, saying, "What do you mean 'our' church."
Now I'll make each of you happy (or unhappy, depending on how you would take it:
4. From an organizational standpoint (my MBA was in organizational management), Gaines is so significantly tainted that it would be almost impossible for him to recover and effectively lead the organization at this point to the level at which it could perform. Congratulations.
5. But "attackers" side has an equal dilemna. They have gotten themselves into a situation that they can't "win." Like Pres Bush jumping into Iraq (and I voted for him twice) without an exit strategy, the "anti-Gaines" forces at this point won't "win", even if he removes himself or is removed. Bellevue's bridal gown has now been so significantly torn, ripped and spotted that it can never be returned to it's previous condition (which seems to be their ultimate objective.). The search committee now has to find an old school pastor who doesn't mind walking through minefields and is content to merely "maintain the status quo" at BBC until it very slowly continues its disintigration into irrelevance. If you don't believe that can happen, please reference me a church outside the Bible-belt of any significant size that looks and sounds like BBC. yes, they existed 30-35 years ago. They are now:
a) a former shell of what they were
b) transformed to relate to the people they are suppose to be reaching out to
c) gone.
That's about as unbiased as I can be.
Wow. I do not really know where to begin.
Karen- First off, his daughter serves in another country because God called her family to serve that community. For you to imply anything other is a slap in the face to our Savior. Did your comment further God's cause?
Secondly, do you know the family? I mean do you really know the family? I am assuming not based on your comments. If that is the case, it takes a lot of nerve to "get inside the wife's mind" and declare to the world why she was silent.
I guess we are just different people. My first thought was not "how could she?"...It was I wish I could have been there for her. I can not even imagine what she went through. Really. Furthermore, trust me on this, status and money definitely are not motivators with her. It was more likely, in my opinion, protecting the ministry they had devoted years to . I was not going to type this because I knew all of you, my brothers & sisters in Christ would chew me up. But here it goes! I came from an extremely difficult family situation. Nothing of my childhood was normal. Today, I have a great little, Christ honoring family. I know you don't want to hear it but when my family would not take me to church as a youth, Mrs. Williams took me everytime that door open. I can remember stopping at Target on the way to church (and various other places). She taught me about not being wasteful and being a good steward of God's money. I can remember when everyone was wearing Laura Ashley dresses to church and she taught me that you could make one for a fraction of what you would waste at the store. The lessons my mother should have taught me, she did instead. When I had surgery and my mother was too busy to tend to me , they opened their home and took care of me. Words simply can not express the extent of how God used the entire family in my life. I can honestly say I do not know where I would be today if it had not been for their ministry and influence in my life. I know I am not the only one with a story like this. I am not trying to minimize what happened to their son. Not at all. I still consider him like a little brother. I guess I am just saying it hurts to read posts that are clearly people speculating and judging without all of the facts. I know you are going on the report but we just do not know why she was quiet, why the son was quiet, if it was ignored within the family or if they honestly felt they had addressed it...we could argue and speculate all day....Fact is, we do not know and unless you do know, it is irresponsible to act as you do.
So, here is something I have been pondering the last few weeks....If God worked in my life & the vessel he used to help with this work was corrupt, does that negate the work in my life? How many people out there have a story like mine. How many people out there can directly link thier salvation and/or spiritual growth to the ministry of the Williams family. Just something to think about.
Ace, your post got me to thinking about God's time. Could it be that God waited to have the consequences of Paul Williams actions come now to serve a purpose that only God's wisdom understands? We could all speculate on this but I know that God has a plan for all of this.
Just my opinion,
Yes, I believe God's timing is very important...I received an amazing email this morning and I will share parts of it with you in my long post with will come tonight.
I'll provide you people a LOT to think about in terms of consequences, and etc. and how it's God's job to take care of that.
I believe God has EVERYTHING in control and we shouldn't be worrying as much as we are right now....we ALL need to fully trust God. More on that later...so keep looking out for my post, it's still being written!
ace..
"I have a huge post and it should come either tonight or tomorrow to clarify on this and to address other things as a result of this blog."
0) I can't wait...
Charlie Fox,
"Sorry Charlie"...just couldn't help myself!
Ima
Seattle brother said:
But "attackers" side has an equal dilemna. They have gotten themselves into a situation that they can't "win."
To whom are you referring when you speak of "attackers", our brother?
We may be mean, but you, with all due respect are prejudiced.
mr. deacon said:
Karen- Why do you always think of the worst outcome possible? Why do you and others live like someone is always out to get you and like there are black clouds around every corner? Why does everything always have to involve some kind of conspiracy?
response:
Allow me to answer that, please.
The "reason" we act like that, is becuase that IS our life's experience. Our experiences form the prism thru which we see and measure life.
We have been betrayed in the most heinous way. How would you have us to be? Do you think that all we have to do is just put on a happy face and sing kum ba ya?
If you have the answer as to how to get us to remove the memories that determine our responses to things, by all means, do share.
There are years and years of my life that have been erased becuase I pulled the shade down, in order to survive. This was involuntary on my part.
Most of us do alright until something like this comes along which is eerily too familiar. And then we get slammed by those on this blog who don't have a clue about sexual abuse, and further, don't care to know.
I dont' mean this as an attack on anyone. Forgive me if it appears that way.
Just my opinion wrote: "There are a vast majority of us who believe that God called Steve Gaines to be our pastor."
This statement, often repeated, makes me sick! When God calls a man, he either responds to the call and goes, or he rejects the call. Take missionaries for example. They often relate being "called" to the field. When called, they leave everything behind and go serve under great inconvenience and risk. If God "called" Steve Gaines, why did SG have to negotiate his compensation package? The truth is, he was not called, but was "enticed" to come by virtue of a huge salary, benefits, perks and power and fame. It was a career opportunity too big to pass up. Having sat on pastor search committes before, I always found it interesting that every pastor we were considering swore he "was called to our church." I can guarantee you if you fire SG, you will quickly receive applications from thousands of other churches' pastors who say God called them to replace SG. Get real!
jmo said.....
We could all speculate on this but I know that God has a plan for all of this.
REPLY:
BINGO!!!! Another WINNER!!!
seattle brother...
Thank you for your post from the outside looking in. You are absolutely right to think what you think from what you have seen here. It does get ugly sometimes, mostly when we are invaded by those whose sole intention is to detract from our efforts to expose the truth at Bellevue.
I hope you read far enough back to know how it all began with refusal by our new pastor and staff to allow the proper handling of some appropriate questions. There was a refusal for meeting, discussion, appointments--anything which could have brought a proper remedy. Shock followed. We were dumbfounded by the response of those already mentioned.
Frankly, this has been explained numerous times on here to those who enter at a later point and are not aware of the original problems. Just rest assured that the Lord is in control and He will have HIS way.
Lord Jesus, have mercy on us all.
Dee
ace said...
Note: Yes, sin has consequences but it's up to God for them to come. It's not NASS' job or Jim Haywood's job or Ace's job...or anyone's job. It's God's job and it's as simple as that.
People here are feeling the need to move God's hand and those people should watch themselves carefully. I have a huge post and it should come either tonight or tomorrow to clarify on this and to address other things as a result of this blog.
All things that come to pass are ordained by God (first cause), through His providence, by the use of means (second causes), including consequences, both temporal and eternal.
lindon wrote: "But we cannot keep on sinning willfully and expect to go to heaven."
lindon, are you now addressing security of the believer concerns? Are you saying that a Christian without works can lose his salvation? If you are saying that we must do something in order to maintain our salvation then you do not believe that the gift is for eternal life but that the gift is conditional upon our actions. Therefore, it equates to a person's works (action) as the assurance of his eternal life in heaven. I disagree for I'm a once saved, always saved believer. We may disagree on the once saved but not the always saved. May I ask if you belong to the church of Christ fellowship? This seems to be their teaching doctrines you're working from.
"Note: Yes, sin has consequences but it's up to God for them to come. It's not NASS' job or Jim Haywood's job or Ace's job...or anyone's job. It's God's job and it's as simple as that."
Then, why scripture?
mo-scratch- Your post is very sad and full of junk. The FACT is, you have no clue if Dr. Gaines was called by God to be our Pastor or not. Your post proves you have no clue about Dr. Gaines and how everything happened when he came to Bellevue. Your post is just more of the same. FALSE!
mo scratch wrote: "When God calls a man, he either responds to the call and goes, or he rejects the call."
Our God can change minds...please insert the story of Jonah and the big fish here!
Secondly, you know not of what you speak in regards to other pastors saying to the committee that they'd been called to be the pastor at Bellevue. I will leave it at that but you want to discuss with some members of the committee in this regard.
JMO: "I disagree for I'm a once saved, always saved believer. We may disagree on the once saved but not the always saved. May I ask if you belong to the church of Christ fellowship? This seems to be their teaching doctrines you're working from. "
I am a classical Baptist. I am a "If saved always saved" believer.
Why do scriptures tell us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? Why are we warned about the narrow gate and hard way? Why are we told to "Abide" in Him? Why are 'professing Christians' told in scripture that many will say, Lord Lord and Jesus will say I never knew you? Why do scriptures say that without Holiness we will not see God? Why do scripture say that if we say we love Him but do not keep His commandments we are a liar?
There are more but I will stop.
Why? Why do scriptures tell us this?
jmo,
It appears that you misread mo's post.
What do ya'll think when a pastor sez, "GOD has called me to your church, and it will take "this much money" to get me here. TRUE STORY!!!
sickofthelies, thanks for your honesty in your post. I am married to someone who has experience abuse while I came from a Christian home with loving parents. As parents we disagreed in some areas due to her trying to relate her situation to the present. She was over-protective while I understood giving unconditional love. Because of her past she looked to the negative of most situations while I looked to the positive side. It is what our make-up was. But through the years she has grown more comfortable in understanding unconditional love and that's given she her a most positive outlook on life. I am hoping and praying that those of you who have been abused can learn once again to trust.
We got part of the story last night. I'm anxious for the rest of the story to come out.
To seattlebrother,
Dr. Rogers, our former pastor, had tremendous integrity. We were privileged to study his life from advantaged seats. He taught us the Southern Baptist Convention need not survive. Our church does not have to stand. None of us even have to live. However, we cannot compromise truth. If it takes the utter destruction of our church to uncover the truth, so be it. A church built on lies is not a church the world needs anyway.
You are right it is too ugly. We didn't make it that way. The pastor and a few others created that environment a long time ago. We have responded imperfectly. At least we are responding instead of enabling them to sweep all kinds of sins under the rug.
2006Huldah said...
seattle brother...
Thank you for your post from the outside looking in. You are absolutely right to think what you think from what you have seen here. It does get ugly sometimes, mostly when we are invaded by those whose sole intention is to detract from our efforts to expose the truth at Bellevue.
Dee,
Thank you for the kinder post to Seattle Brother.
Seattle Brother, I am sorry for the tone of my reply.
About the idea that consequences should be left up to God. Is that how the Personnel Committee should have viewed Paul Williams' employment? Perhaps we should have simply restored him to his position and trusted the Lord to handle it.
God gives humans responsibility to uphold His law. The judge who says to the condemned man "may God have mercy on your soul" is not relieved of his responsibility to carry out sentence. What kind of judge would turn the guilty loose and say "God'll get you for that."
We as Christians have a responsibility to hold one another accountable for our actions. Yes, Matthew 18 does have authority, even over the Senior Pastor of BBC, no matter what a couple (or even a couple hundred) deluded deacons think about it.
A dump-truck full of foaming blather will not change that, so when it arrives later (as promised), you can safely ignore it. Just let the driver simply stew in the knowledge he has wasted his time and gas.
Seattlefriend, your post is very interesting!
"1. Man, some of you guys are mean. I've been in the corporate world, at all levels, for the past 19 years in about the most godless environment on the continent and never seen such public hostilities and unforgiving natures. I'm not sure if I'm ready for that."
I have your exact same background. In the corporate world 15 years...hundreds of companies all over the US. Worked with everything from Wiccans to Hindus to Athiests. Nothing prepared me for the evil I witnessed from a mega church staff. I still tremble over it. Freaked me out. Totally.
"3. All of you take an extreme amount of pride in "your" church. I don't know how many times I've seen you guys (on both sides) refer to yourselves as "great", "influentual", powerful, etc. I'm not sure Christ would necessarally feel that way at this point (remember, he's reading the blog too). p.s. if you haven't felt it yet, he's been tapping you on the shoulder for the past several months, saying, "What do you mean 'our' church.""
This is called "churchianity" and it has totally infected the Western Church. Our buildings are idols.
"4. From an organizational standpoint (my MBA was in organizational management), Gaines is so significantly tainted that it would be almost impossible for him to recover and effectively lead the organization at this point to the level at which it could perform. Congratulations."
Hey, same background! He is tainted from a scriptural point of view, too.
"5. .... The search committee now has to find an old school pastor who doesn't mind walking through minefields and is content to merely "maintain the status quo" at BBC until it very slowly continues its disintigration into irrelevance."
Oh Lord, please bring us old school pastors who preach the full counsel of God, drive raggedy cars and are on their knees 10 hours a day! (See Acts)
" If you don't believe that can happen, please reference me a church outside the Bible-belt of any significant size that looks and sounds like BBC. yes, they existed 30-35 years ago. They are now:
a) a former shell of what they were
b) transformed to relate to the people they are suppose to be reaching out to
c) gone.
That's about as unbiased as I can be."
Our churches are dead but it has nothing to do with numbers. I know on fire churches with 25 people but they aren't in the US.
What do we do with verses like this?
1 Corinthians 5:12
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
On a completely unrelated note... seattlebrother, thanks for sharing your opinion. I learned in my master's program that there is no such thing as an unbiased opinion, though. :)
NBBCOF said:
Well, at the least he got a 6-week paid vacation.
Point well taken. And he didn't have to sign any agreements to get it.
"5. .... The search committee now has to find an old school pastor who doesn't mind walking through minefields and is content to merely "maintain the status quo" at BBC until it very slowly continues its disintigration into irrelevance."
I still remain confused as to where anyone gets that the local body is supposed to adjust it's culture to the culture of the world outside in the name of evangelism or "relevance"...is not the primary mission of the church the building up of the saints to do the work of the church (taking the gospel out into the culture) rather than bringing in the culture into the church? I always thought that the church is supposed to impact the culture, not the culture impacting the church. And isn't the gospel relevant for all ages and cultures on it's own?
AOG,
I agree!!!
13 Observations of an Evangelist
Baptist Press Wednesday 10/25/06
13 Observations of an evangelist
By Jerry Drace
JACKSON, Tenn. (BP)--Since February 1975 when God led me to establish the Jerry Drace Evangelistic Association He has allowed me to preach in more than 1,000 churches across our nation. In His divine providence He has placed me in the company of some of His choicest servants as well as some who seek to be served. Throughout the past 31 years I have kept notes and observations on each of the pastors, staffs and churches where my team and I have been privileged to present the claims of Christ. I am sure some of these observations will be misunderstood, others will be embraced. I wish to share only 13 in hopes they will serve as a catalyst for your own reflections:
-- I have observed the lowering of the standards of holiness from the pulpit to the pew. It appears we are seeking to develop happy churches, but not holy churches. One pastor stated that he wanted his people to leave the Sunday morning worship feeling "affirmed, approved and applauded". Whatever happened to leaving feeling confronted, convicted, confessed and cleansed? Spurgeon put it in perspective years ago when he said, "Of all the griefs the church ever feels, the keenest is when those who once stood in her midst dishonor the name of Christ by unholy living."
-- I have observed the seductive fashions of the world being worn in the worship centers of our churches. Teenage girls and sometimes their mothers wear clothes to church they neither could wear to school nor in the workplace. The same applies to the male gender. We have developed such a laxity in our attire the result has numbed the spiritual senses of being in the presence of Deity. I am fully aware that God looks on the heart, but clothing, or the lack thereof, should not distract from looking into His face.
-- I have observed more and more churches having fewer and fewer revivals. Of course, the rural church will always hold a revival, whether they actually have one or not, the third week of August. Vance Havner once said, "Preachers speak of 'holding revivals'. Somebody ought to turn one loose!" Real revival -- which takes prayer and preparation and sees scores ushered into the Kingdom and church members rekindling the fire within -- is quickly giving way to one-day events. We have stopped singing "Take Time To Be Holy," because we don't have the time.
-- I have observed more and more churches decreasing from mortification rather than increasing due to salvation. There is more life outside in most church cemeteries than inside on the pews. At least in the cemeteries the grass grows and the flowers bloom. If there is not a revival in our land many of our rural churches will become bed and breakfast inns and our larger churches will be turned into antique malls. If you don't believe this, visit Great Britain.
-- I have observed more and more churches growing by transferring letters rather than transforming lives. It doesn't take a genius to build a church numerically. Given the right staff and programs you can fill a church. However, there is an eternal difference between filling a church with people and filling the people inside the church.
-- I have observed more and more pastors and evangelists preaching someone else's sermons rather than studying and preaching their own. The call to preach has been replaced with the desire to succeed. Being an expounder of the Word requires time alone with God. Being a mouth for God to the people of God is an awesome responsibility. Preaching someone else's anointed sermon doesn't guarantee your anointment. If the sermon isn't gathered and set ablaze in the pastor's heart it likely won't spread to the hearts of the church members. Some of the greatest proclaimers of the Good News are seldom heard because they neither pastor a mega church nor are the featured speakers on Christian cruises.
-- I have observed unethical and even immoral conduct by religious leaders with little or no remorse on their part once their deeds were made public. The graveyard of compromise is filled with those who listened to the sirens of the world. Accountability and integrity were sacrificed for personal gain and puffed-up egos. When Christian leaders become legends in their own minds the ice has already broken.
-- I have observed the policies of the community dictating the policies of the church, especially in the area of sports. We now schedule the events of the church around the athletic calendar of our schools or recreational departments. We have surrendered to the god of sports. Many of our parents allow their children to play their favorite sport on Sunday morning with the rationale, "What can we do about it?" These same parents wouldn't allow their children to skip school for a church event. We even close our churches on Sunday nights if it is a national holiday. Good thing God doesn't cancel His services.
-- I have observed more and more churches teaching the latest trends in church growth rather than the doctrines of the Scriptures. We have churches full of people who can quote from the latest church growth guru, but for the life of them they can neither recall nor defend any of the doctrines of the Bible. We can be seeker friendly and purpose driven, but if we fail to seek Christ and find our purpose in Him alone all the books, seminars and mega conferences will only impede the salvation of the lost and the disciplining of the saved.
-- I have observed us becoming a people who enjoy the expression of worship without encountering the experience of worship. No one enjoys beautiful choruses more than me, yet with the freedom of style which this has ushered into our churches we must be careful not to allow our performance to overshadow His presence. Celebration without commitment leads to worthless worship.
-- I have observed religion becoming big business. Christian recording artists are now referred to as superstars and certain pastors are touted as religious CEOs. Religious leaders have evolved from troublers of society to trend-setters in society. We have religious personalities who are known as much for their political creeds as their theological convictions. Simple statements from the Bible are marketed into multimillion dollar enterprises. An executive in a Christian publication company once told me, "It's all about the buck." You half expect to see certain religious organizations listed on the New York Stock Exchange.
-- I have observed a few proclaimers who have comprised their call because of a cowardly commitment to the truths of God's Word. This brings about a deceitful delivery of devilish doctrines. The end result is a man who panders to the people and prostitutes the proclamation in the process. When wickedness enters the doors of the church it soon spreads throughout the land without any opposition. Satan himself could not have better allies than pastors who refuse to preach the truths of the Scriptures and church members who refuse to live godly lives.
-- I have observed a righteous remnant in every church who have a hunger and thirst for experiencing God to the fullest. It is this group, both young and old, who will pass on the teachings and doctrines of Holy Scripture to the next generation. Praise God for ministers and members who are not driven by fashions and trends, but remain faithful and true to fulfilling the Great Commission.
Jerry Drace is a past president of the Conference of Southern Baptist Evangelists. In addition to revivals and area wide crusades, he and his wife, Becky, conduct Hope for the Home conferences. They live in Jackson, Tenn. More information about the Draces is available at www.jdea.tn.org and www.HopefortheHome.org.
mo_scratch...
I am with YOU.
Dee
karen...
I am with YOU, too.
Dee
Am I the only one troubled by what happened to "sickofthelies"? As a victim of abuse who applied to work in the children's department at BBC, she was counseled by someone in the department where Paul Williams served.
David Coombs' son Steve, was overheard in a foyer at church, bragging that he was ACE from the blog.
Ace emailed "sickofthelies" and told her he knew who she was. Had he read her file and recognized her story? How did he know?
churchmouse...
You're welcome. (No smugness from me. Just want you to know that I saw your comment.)
Dee
According to the Investigation………………….
I. Prior Knowledge
In addition to the above objectives, the Team investigated why the retired staff members, current staff members including the Senior Pastor, and church members who knew of the seventeen-year-old issue prior to December 2006 did not deal with the issue at an earlier date.
I. VI. Investigation Facts
Throughout 2006, other people gained knowledge of the seventeen-year-old issue, beginning with another retired Bellevue staff member, Jamie Fish of the Biblical Guidance office, Pastor Steve Gaines, Webb Williams, and others within the church family.
X. Question of Timely Action
Early in 2006, two people, a trained psychologist and a former church staff member, learned of the issue and could have contacted the Department of Child Services or other authorities about the presence of a child molester on the staff of Bellevue.
Who was the “retired/former church staff member?”
I wannaknow
Did I misunderstand something? Are we getting so shell-shocked that we don't feel things any more. This is a horrible breech of this woman's privacy. What if this were you?
churchmouse, I am very bothered by it. Something does not add up. But A is busy right now with your leaders preparing some sort of rebuttal to why what Gaines did was Biblical.
charlie fox...
This whole post was wonderful for us all to read and think over. Thank you for posting it. This is just a piece of it y'all. Go back and read the whole thing! Dee
**********
"-- I have observed more and more churches decreasing from mortification rather than increasing due to salvation. There is more life outside in most church cemeteries than inside on the pews. At least in the cemeteries the grass grows and the flowers bloom. If there is not a revival in our land many of our rural churches will become bed and breakfast inns and our larger churches will be turned into antique malls. If you don't believe this, visit Great Britain."
*******
wannaknow,
Email me please.
Karen
churchmouse,
Of course it's inexcusable..a sacred trust was violated..she was traumatized all over again. People saw her file who never should have without her permission.
.
*************************************************************************
Moses had unconfessed sin for forty years. Click to see
************************************************************************
(Please continue)
.
Karen,
Just emailed you.
Wannaknow
bible in a year,
Friend keep in mind that some coming here have dial up...the space you take up for 2 lines of text...well you get it.
2006Huldah said...
charlie fox...
This whole post was wonderful for us all to read and think over. Thank you for posting it.
Reply:
My Pleasure.
May I suggest that everybody copy and paste the article, that Dee is referring to, and email it to everybody you know.
allofgrace said...
bible in a year,
Friend keep in mind that some coming here have dial up...the space you take up for 2 lines of text...well you get it.
VERY TACTFUL. Thanx
Churchmouse said...
Did I misunderstand something? Are we getting so shell-shocked that we don't feel things any more. This is a horrible breech of this woman's privacy. What if this were you?
2:48 PM, January 29, 2007
Thank you, Churchmouse. You obviously get it. We're so desensitized to sin we no longer think about any of these issues in their proper context. It's very sad.
Pinker socks-
Please re-read my post. I was responding to the theory that has been blogged about that maybe Mrs. Williams kept silent for the status, big house, fancy car, meal ticket, etc...I was simply giving examples of how my experience with her showed that is not really in her charachter. We do not know why she kept silent. I just do not think we should speculate and judge when we do not know all of the facts. There are some gapping holes in that report. I think some of us are getting a little liberal filling those holes in for ourselves.
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