There's a lot of material here, and you can't possibly expect to read it in one hour or even one night and be up to speed. It takes time to study and let this sink in, but it's well worth your time! This may be at the crux of the issues we're facing at Bellevue today, and we need to be wise, informed sheep.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. II Timothy 2:15
Words of advice from a Germantown Baptist member who's been there:
"As a member of SaveGBC, I can tell you that we were totally clueless as to what was going on, until we started doing research, after the Constitution & Bylaws revision was thrown at us for the second time. My advice to y'all is RESEARCH, RESEARCH and MORE RESEARCH. It will scare you to death.
"All of us at GBC are praying for our Brothers and Sisters at BBC. GOD WILL protect his children. We are proof of that."
A "purpose driven" thread was started a few weeks ago, but there wasn't much input then as other topics arose which took precedence. Since we seem to have acquired a lot of new readers since then, I want to reintroduce this topic for discussion.
This seems to be a recurring theme in the comments, albeit one that hasn't gotten much traction, that Bellevue may be moving toward a Purpose Driven model. Please comment on anything you perceive being related to the PDC movement in this thread, particularly as it relates to the issues facing Bellevue today.
1. Do you think Bellevue is moving in this direction? Why or why not? If so, does this concern you?
2. Have you read The Purpose Driven Life? If so, what did you think about it?
3. Has your Bible Fellowship Class or other group done a study of the PDL? If so, what are your thoughts about it?
4. Do you see this movement and its wide appeal across denominational lines as evidence of the "one world church" the Bible tells us will emerge in the latter days?
It seems the Church of Christ denomination is just as under attack by the Purpose Driven Rick Warrenites as the Baptists are!
ConcernedMembers.com is a website devoted to exposing this movement in our churches today. They maintain a forum for members of individual churches of all denominations to discuss, much as we do in this forum, the problems facing their churches. A list of these churches with links to their forums is available here.
Note: A majority of the churches listed are Church of Christ congregations, and a big issue with them that doesn't apply to us is the introduction of musical instruments into their churches. However, they have many other issues with which we may share their concerns.
Gardendale Baptist Church in Corpus Christi, TX went through a well-publicized split in 2004 over the same issue -- a pastor saying "my way or the highway." (Am I the only one who sees the irony in the name of that church?)
We have been told that Bellevue isn't part of the "Purpose Driven" movement, yet when you read some of the firsthand descriptions from members of churches which are being or already have been "transitioned," they sound eerily similar to what we're experiencing at Bellevue today.
Signs of the church growth movement.
And a new one someone sent me designed to train pastors in transitioning their own churches. This one is scary reading!
These are some links from my personal list, but there are many other sources for information on this topic.
Letter to editor of the Americus Times-Recorder (two pages long).
Reply to above.
Are Rick Warren's Teachings at Bellevue Baptist?
Berean's PDL Discernment Tool
Book review -- Transitioning
Church Growth Movement (multiple articles).
Change Dividing Southern Baptist Mega-Church thread pertaining to Bellevue.
Herescope blog.
Lighthouse Trails Research Project
One Man's Purpose-Driven Journal
Spirit-Led or Purpose Driven?
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
The Purpose-Driven Pastor discussion.
The Adulation of Man in The Purpose Driven Life article.
Transitioning an established church.
Multiple Links about the seeker sensitive and purpose driven church philosophies.
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233 comments:
1 – 200 of 233 Newer› Newest»You are not helping your cause by bashing everyone you disagree with and referencing something that another church has done as part of a "one world church" movement. You seem you have problems much broader than what has happened at your own church. I would encourage you to allow God to handle the problem and for you to respond like Christ, if you proclaim that you are a Christ follower. I am in pastoral ministry and you are grieving the Holy Spirit and causing dissension.
Rick Reynolds said...
I am in pastoral ministry and you are grieving the Holy Spirit and causing dissension.
REPLY:
If you are a pastor, I would assume that you would know how to be more careful with your judgement calls. It certainly does not reflect well of you.
The Purpose Driven Church had driven right through Bellevue and now we have a TRAIN WRECK. What we need is HELP not more sheep beating.
We have a music minister who is chastizing folks for not clapping their hands and lifting their arms while singing.
I think that manufactured Worship grieves the Holy Spirit.
I think that belittling your own flock at another church grieves the Holy Spirit.
I think that saints who run away and hide their head in the sand while the church is under attack by self indulgent spiritual leaders grieves the Holy Spirit.
I think that bringing the world inside the church in order to grow a church grieves the Holy Spirit.
I think that sneaking a false gospel past the doors of Bellevue grieves the Holy Spirit.
Do you want to know more anout what grieves the Holy Spirit.
I think that BELLEVUE BAPTIST CHRUCH is grieving the Holy Spirit.
It has widely been claimed that the church is not involved in an organized program to become a Purpose Driven Church. I would have to agree that I have not seen or heard of any intentional program that is solely directed toward becoming a PDC. The philosophies behind that movement however have been adopted within Bellevue, whether they are intentional or not. The church has moved steadily toward what is publicized in the PDC material. It is even more disturbing to realize that there is not a conscience effort to become a PDC, because it indicates that we have become oblivious to its subliminal effects.
Tim,
The leadership wouldn't admit to moving us to a PDL church,it would verify what we have claimed all along.
So they are going to try to do it without admiting it,all I can say that "if it walks like a duck and quacks"
'Warren predicts that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be "one of the big enemies of the 21st century."
"Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism - they're all motivated by fear. Fear of each other."
I seem to remember that to be called a Christian Fundamentalist was a bage of honor at BBC .When we hear SG speak out against Christian Fundamentalist we will not have any doubts then.
jcsuitt,
The ends however do not justify the means. We can not sacrifice Biblical doctrine for the sake of reaching our community.
this Purpose Driven and Rick Warren stuff is Ridiculous. Ridiculous!!!
it seems many of you need to study up on the "seeker friendly" movement a little more.
I was wondering if this topic was completely lost in the shuffle. Personally I believe this is the most important topic we could be discussing. The financial issues, staff issues, fence jumping, etc, etc are important…but in my view they aren’t the real problems, only symptoms of what THE problem is. Just like a disease that presents symptoms that make us feel bad and are troublesome, if the symptoms alone are treated, we feel better for a time, but the underlying disease continues to grow and spread until the body can no longer function properly and the initial symptoms that seemed so troublesome at first now look like a SS picnic compared to the ravages of the untreated disease which caused them.
Is Bellevue on the road to becoming “Purpose Driven”? Well you can actually put any label on it you like…it really doesn’t matter…to determine what disease is causing the problems you have to take a look at the presenting symptoms. First of all by the time most disease is at the stage that it’s causing multiple symptoms, it’s been present for some time….so let’s just realize from the start that we didn’t get here overnight…this is something that’s been at work slowly but surely for some time.
Let’s think back over the last ten or so years and look at all the different “movements” that have taken place in evangelicalism. About ten years back John Maxwell began writing a lot of books about leadership, how to organize a church, etc….as well as George Barna, the famous Christian pollster, who once stated that the church had better start taking a clue from corporate America and begin patterning growth strategies in that mold or face dwindling numbers. Maxwell’s books did pretty well. Then comes Promise Keepers…remember that little movement? I was involved with a para-church ministry at the time PK was around and we had a booth at the 2 PK conventions held here in Memphis. The one thing I noticed was the ecumenical nature of these large meetings…that and the fact that everyone seemed to be really excited about jumping on board with it and “riding the wave”. Next came Experiencing God…churches all over the place were doing church-wide studies and small group meetings going through the book. That book spawned a couple more if I remember correctly. Then everyone jumped on the WWJD bandwagon for a while….during that time every time I went to a book store, everything on the shelves seemed to be 7 steps to this or 12 steps to that…any of this starting to ring a bell with anyone?.....Then The Purpose Driven Church came along…no one paid much attention at first…it was geared more toward leadership…then it was followed up by The Purpose Driven Life….that one….well, I think we know how that one did. I was shocked when Dr. Rogers led Bellevue through the 40 days of Purpose. Here’s something to be thinking about in all these movements…most if not all this stuff is trademarked…and with the books came all the attendant T-shirts, coffee mugs, pens, pencils, study Bibles…on and on ad nauseum...all geared around the new “product”. I’m going to cut this off for the moment…I hope some of you will reflect on these movements I’ve mentioned, and start tracking with me on what we’re seeing now….I’ll post more later.
allofgrace,
As I read your post, I began thinking about the various movements that you mentioned. Before I ever got to the bottom of the post I had already started considering the "marketing" of these "products". The church has become susceptible to every form of marketing immaginable in its search to be what it should be.
It appears to me that we need a good dose of Biblical doctrine and a lot less "products" to tell us how to do it. The Bible is enough, alone.
again, there is no evidence of this at Bellevue. none.
stop posting stuff about other churches and all these junk articles and posts some facts for once.
post specific facts on things Bellevue is doing. post specific things that show that we are in any way going the "seeker friendly", Rick Warren etc way.
there are at least 3 things all Seeker Friendly churches do or do not do and Bellevue is FAR it
Ace, hisservant1,
Don't worry I'll get there. It's important first to lay some groundwork...because this is something that's not unique to Bellevue. You 2 also need to keep in mind...that the whole PD model isn't designed to be installed all in one sitting...it's over time..little by little. It took 8 yrs for GBC to get where it was.
allofgrace wrote:
Personally I believe this is the most important topic we could be discussing.
Hello all. I confess I don't have a very clear understanding of what a 'purpose-driven' church is. There's so much material referenced that I'm having a hard time getting a clear picture of it. It does seem to be at the heart of the conflict. Could someone explain to an old-timer what it is?
Thank you.
Regarding the first post on this thread:
I will never understand this tack on the controversy: Let God handle it (presumably we do nothing to aid Him--good thing He didn't call us to stand strong and proclaim righteousness or something inconvenient like that) and behave in a Christlike manner (which posses the question of what exactly was Jesus like?).
Well, it's obvious that we ARE to act. God doesn't call us to be bumps on logs nor does He allow the luxury of retreating from issues of right and wrong. And this is about right and wrong: it's about lies vs truth, obfuscation vs transparency, confidentiality agreements vs open accountability.
Further, the idea that being Christlike equates to just loving and sitting quietly by is obnoxious. Jesus wasn't a kindly grandmother. He spoke and laid low a mob, He ran despicable thieves from the Temple, He single handedly dealt with men possessed of demons. When He comes again He will lay low the nations with the Sword proceeding out of his mouth.
Yes, He loved, He was gentle, He was kind; but He was also meek, powerful, and unwilling to pull a punch. He considered sin something horrible enough to require eternal separation from Himself and from the Father. He also considered sin something so horrific, that He would allow Himself to be slain to save us from its ravages.
And this sin is what some of you people want us to sit back and allow to go unchecked? And why? For peace? For quiet? For the comfort of insulation from controversy and a path to the silent death of the weak and cowardly? Well, that makes sense doesn’t it? God sent His Son to die for sin; and now here we sit, viewing sin head on, and our response is, “Oh God’ll just deal with this too.” Nice. It’s a good thing we’re not imbued with some power from Him so that we could actually realize what’s going, understand what He wants us to do, and then do it. Because if we had that going for us, well we might have some teeny, tiny responsibility to act and that would be pretty inconvenient—barely dodged that bullet! Come on people—you know better and you acknowledge so in the way you live your lives everyday!
Also, this attitude of abdication in the face of sin cheapens the Savior's death. How dare we benefit from His precious blood while allowing yet more sin to be piled on the burden He had to bear for us. How dare we say some sin among the brethren doesn't warrant our attention and our attempts to route it out! How dare we casually say, "Well, God can take care of this one too. He'll take one for the team and we can just sit here loving on each other." How can such apathy exist among people who say they love Jesus and hate sin?
Stop this silliness about allowing this situation to work itself out. Act!
Finally, calling something what it is, is not wrong! There are more allegations of hate, impropriety, and slander floating around here than I’ve ever dealt with—and I’ve done politics for years! Folks, God called wrongs “abominable.” Elijah accused Baal of being constipated. Paul said he wished that those troubling Galatia would be castrated. And need I mention Matthew 23. This is the same caliber of stuff that some of you people would call hateful, but they didn’t apologize.
Yes, we should be loving, kind, tender, and slow to wrath. Jesus was all of those things. And after He had spent chapters enduring the sinful men of the cloth, He let them have it. He called them what they were. We need to be ready to grant forgiveness and restoration, but we need not shun calling sin “sin” and setting it in terms stark enough to fit the context within which we work.
just another part of the "big conspiracy". I have no idea how many of you live the way you do.
custos: good points, BUT I think some of what you posted should be used when dealing with some that are attacking Brother Steve and Bellevue as a whole. I wonder if you and others will agree with what you posted if you are on the other end of it?
How is pointing out problems or potential problems attacking anyone?
Because we don't agree with some things?..This a battle of ideas...not people..I don't demonize you because you disagree with me..but I won't sit silent about anything which I believe is wrong, or has the potential to destroy a church. Custos is right...God will assuredly accomplish His will..but He'll do it through human instrument.
custos,
I whole heartedly agree. Sin is Sin. It is not to be made light of.
HisServant-1,
I would expect judgement and consquences if I were Steve Gaines. What's more by trying to wiggle his way out, he has become more deeply entrinched. Sin has consequences. Mine do and his do as well.
Satan has tried to put himself above the consequences of sin. It is a battle that will be lost. No one is above God.
Steve Gaines and his inner circle deny that Bellevue is transitioning to a 'Purpose Driven' Church. Well, that settles it, right.
These are the same people who told us Steve Gaines has never used a credit card for personal expenses.
These are the people who told us they stepped over a little bity fence.
These are the people who told us Jim Whitmire's decision to retire was his own.
These are the people who told us they had examined all the credit card recipts and they were "just fine".
These are the people who told us they had the support of 100% of the deacons.
Need I continue?
I strongly urge each of you to take the time to read the links provided for you by NBBCOF. You need to be informed about this movement. Rick Warren is not just a scruffy, harmless, fellow in sandles and a Hawaiian shirt. OPEN YOUR EYES, BELLEVUE!
I'm not the brightest bulb in the box, but if I'm confused about this others might be too.
If anyone has time, and if they've read all the links, could they kindly explain what a 'purpose-driven' church is? I'm really stuck in the ditch on this one.
churchmouse: NO, that settles nothing and that is your view, not mine and MANY others.
you and many on here have allowed this junk to take you over. many of your are very deceived. you need to abide in Christ and not in this blog and the rumors
tim: you are way off base.
What well known author is quoted as saying,"I think that you get more done under the radar, behind the scenes. And I actually was able to do it for about 23 years until this blasted book blew my cover."?
What well known minister said the following: "Learn to love yourself! Self-esteem still wobbly after all these years? ...Accept yourself...God accepts us unconditionally...Believe in yourself." (not die to self?)
What church leader has a Buddist on staff to aid in his Global Peace Plan? (Do you believe one man can bring world peace? Who in the Bible offers world peace?)
Who sponsors church growth seminars that train ministers to go in and destroy the power structure in an existing church and take control with the help of a few (four or five) men?
Who sponsors church growth seminars that train ministers to require signed covenants?
What church growth movement downplays teaching on Bible prophecy, calling it a diversion?
What church growth movement requires members to take personality profile tests as a requirement for membership?
What church growth movement has many leaders who teach that the Church will be perfected before Jesus comes and that there will be no need for Jesus to physically return?
Read the material in the links provided by NBBCOF and you will find the answers.
sr and others,
A good place to begin is the "Signs of a purpose driven church" link. Don't a lot of the things on that list sound familiar? It's difficult to describe in just a sentence or two, but like a lot of things in life, you know it when you see it. Read some of the personal accounts of people whose churches went through these changes. One after another they say the same things. "We knew there was something wrong, but we didn't know what it was." Once they know about the PDC movement the light comes on, and they realize that's what's wrong!
I don't think anyone's saying we've arrived there, but we do seem to be well down the road. And for a church to be PD or to at least embrace many of the tenets of it, doesn't mean it has to adhere to all the features of it. The elder rule, "my way or the highway" attitude prevalent throughout RW's advice to pastors who want to "transition" their own churches is eerily similar to what we seem to be facing at BBC today.
And let's face it, we're already elder ruled. They just don't call it that. In fact, that was my thought about BBC several months ago when GBC was going through their problems, before I ever heard about any problems at BBC. I recognized it for what it was even then. And if I can figure it out, then just about anybody can!
NASS
P.S. Hisservant-1, just drop it, okay? You've made your point. If this blog is so evil and participating in it makes us all so wicked and deceived, then you're just as guilty as the rest of us.
Has anyone noticed the closer to the truth we get, the shriller the "opposition" becomes? Hmmm... Could it be we're hitting a big nerve with this topic?
I'm not shouting, just adding emphasis to make sure everyone sees this.
BEFORE ANYONE POSTS ANOTHER WORD, I'D LIKE TO ASK EVERYONE TO READ THE COMMENT IN THE "$25,000 QUESTION" THREAD LEFT BY CHURCH_MUSICIAN AT 1:29 P.M. ON NOVEMBER 24TH!
IF THE SHOE FITS... ! I DO NOT WANT THIS OR ANY OTHER THREAD TO DISSOLVE INTO ANOTHER TIT-FOR-TAT BATTLE OF WORDS AS IT HAS SEVERAL OTHER NIGHTS, PARTICULARLY THE LATE NIGHT DISCUSSIONS. PLEASE STOP AND THINK BEFORE YOU HIT "PUBLISH" AND STOP ACTING LIKE A BUNCH OF CHILDREN! THIS ISN'T DIRECTED AT EVERYONE, BUT YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE. (THE REST OF US CERTAINLY DO.) I DON'T NEED TO NAME SCREEN NAMES.
THANK YOU,
NBBCOF
Again, thanks NBBCOF. I agree that it's time for all the name-calling, personal attacks, etc. to come to an end.
All this immature behavior by some posters here is really starting to get old.
hisservant1,
I can assure you I'm not consumed by any of this. I can also assure you that I'm neither a conspiracy theorist or a "demon under every bush" type. But I will call a spade a spade..I reiterate...this is not a battle between people...it's a war of ideas...because ideas do have consequences...for better or worse. In my first post on this I was trying to point out the fact of how faddish Christianity has become...those of us who object to the PD philosophy have been called consumer Christians...I contend it's the PD philosophy that preys upon the consumeristic mindset of the "unchurched". I have no quarrel with Rick Warren the man...I do have major problems with his philosophy of what the church's mission is and how to go about it...I have a problem with any thesis which requires the kind of scriptural acrobatics he employs to give it credence. That's not being combative or consumeristic...it's called being discerning.
A good way to prove that Bellevue is not on the Purpose Driven Express would be for our Pastor to ask the Bellevue Bookstore to REMOVE the Purpose Driven books that are being sold and recomemended.
As long as the Bellevue Baptist Book Store carries Rick Warren`s books they support the Purpose Driven Church.
American Priest Says no Peace without Syria
Monday, November 13, 2006 - 07:40 PM
American Protestant Pastor Rick Warren on Monday said there was no peace in the region without Syria, noting that 80 percent of the American people rejected what the US Administration is doing in Iraq and considered the US policy in the Mideast as wrong.
Syria’s Grand Mufti Sheikh Badr al-Din Hassoun received the American Pastor in Damascus in which he referred to the importance of spreading culture of amity, peace and coexistence instead of the 'clash of civilizations'.
The Mufti called for conveying the real image of Syria, national unity and its call to spread peace, amity and justice to the American people which the US administration has distorted their image before the world.
Pastor Warren expressed admiration of Syria and the coexistence he saw between Muslims and Christians, stressing that he will convey this image to his church and country.
Mazen / Zahra
how funny! many think you have made your point in your hate for Brother Steve and his family and many others at Bellevue. why don't you just drop it???? why not? we know your views and we do not agree.
and no, there are many that are far far from as guilty as some. I have not spread one rumor, lie, etc. not one. I have not one time tried to ruin anyone's family or their life or their reputation. not once.
am I perfect, far from it. but, please do not try and justify some of the horrible stuff from Christians on this blog and the blog in general. there is none.
I will only be on here for a few more days. I wanted to TRY and get the actual truth out. Ace, myself and others have tried. we have offered to get other answers etc. You and many others have heard the facts and refuse. you believe what you want to believe. nothing will change your mind. that is the sad part. you can have very very simple answers right in front of you and you look the other way.
there are some that have concerns and issues and are sincere. there are many others that are not and only want their way. they only want Brother Steve gone. they only want to slander and hurt. they only want their kind of music. and on and on and on! it is ALL about them and not about Christ.
I pray for all of you and for our Church!
blessmewiththetruth: so do you blame DR. Rogers for first bringing the Purpose Driven Life to Bellevue?
hisservant-1 wrote:
"blessmewiththetruth: so do you blame DR. Rogers for first bringing the Purpose Driven Life to Bellevue?"
I can't answer for "blessme," but I can answer for myself. The answer is yes, I do. But I think, like many, he was deceived by RW in the beginning, and I'd like to think that if he were still with us today, that we would not be continuing down this path.
NASS
NASS,
Thank you for your advice about the "Signs of a purpose driven church" link.
Do you know of any 'finished' PDL churches? I'm really unclear about the ultimate 'purpose'.
I love Pastor Rogers and I love Pastor Steve and I am not here to blame either for the PDC movement.
I don`t know everything that has happened behind the scenes with all of this but I do know that Oastor Steve is now our Pastor and the PDC material is being sold and highly recommended at the Bellevue Baptist Book Store.
If Pastor Steve wants to distance himself from PDC mocement, one of the things he can do is remove the PDC material from the bookstore at our church.
Surely you would not have an argument against that observation.
You folks should read this..this is an excerpt from Danny Akin's sermon at the SC pastor's conference, posted on the blog of a young pastor. I think Dr. Akin has hit the nail on the head.
Danny Akin: A Lone Voice Crying Out in the Southern Baptist Wilderness
As I typed the “highlights” of Dr. Akin’s outstanding exposition of the 2 John, from the SC Baptist Pastors’ Conference,
this past Monday, I was even more convinced that Dr. Akin is, indeed, part of a small group of leaders that understand
the dire condition of the SBC. May we all take heed to Brother Akin’s penetrating words. Akin exegeted the
text with precision. (You will not see that in my highlights because I wanted to stress Akin’s insight on the SBC) Also, the bold emphasis’ are mine. May we all read, weep, and repent of our so-called “Biblical preaching!”
Chadwick
Highlights from Dr. Akin’s sermon:
“ . . . There is a time to laugh . . . there is a place to smile . . . there is a place for joy . . . but there is also a time when we need to grieve and repent . . . at what IS NOT taking place in our churches and in our pulpits. . .”
“ . . . Truth without love always becomes legalism. . . and love without truth always becomes shallow, syrupy sentimentalism. . .”
“The last six months, I have called Evangelical Megachurch Meltdown . . . you look left, you look right, you look up, you look down . . . and across our convention . . . you have been watching, observing, Megachurch Meltdown! I have a friend . . . a wonderful friend who serves in a megachurch and he rubs elbows al the time with men that we look to in our denomination as successful . . . as those we want to model after. . . and I said . . . I want to know . . . What is the deal right now? What is going on with some of the leaders in our convention? What is going on with some of the high profile men in our convention? And he said, ‘We’ll, it’s very simple. We have developed a Christian rock-star mentality! . . . we think we are entitled to a big salary. . . we think we are entitled to all sorts of perks . . . we think we are entitled to fudge a little bit over the numbers over here. . . we think we’re entitled to do things that the rest of us cannot do . . . because WE THINK WE DESERVE IT!’ Such a mindset may be true of the world . . . BUT IT IS BLASPHEMY IN THE BODY OF CHRIST. And don’t misunderstand me . . . you and I can be just as guilty as that same type of mind-set pastoring a little church . . . or leading a seminary. I can begin to think that I am in a position because I deserve it . . . because I’ve earned it . . . and I have the right to this, that, and the other because of the position that I convince myself that I have attained . . . rather than reminding myself daily I am where I am because a Sovereign God put me there (amens, and ummmms! thunder throughout the sanctuary). The God who put me there can just as easily remove me (Akin snaps his finger) just like that. And, therefore, it reminds me that I don’t have anything that I have . . . except by His grace . . . except by His goodness . . . as a result of His kindness . . . His compassion . . . His mercy . . . and if I will keep that in my mind, I will finish the race well . . .”
“ . . . What you live is what you really believe. . . and everything else is just religious talk. . . .”
“ . . . I don’t care who you are, and I don’t care who is in your church . . . you give me about 15 minutes with you, and you let me ask you some basic questions about what you believe about Jesus, and I guarantee you . . . I will be able to identify and pinpoint about 95% of the rest of your Theology . . . because what you believe about Jesus, it will determine what you believe about everything else . . . Now here’s the problem . . . our folks don’t know what to believe about Jesus. . . Jesus is popular . . . Jesus is cool . . . Jesus is in all the magazines . . . But I like what Mark Driscoll said, and I am not one who quotes him at great length all the time . . . but on this one, he is right . . . He says, ‘What is wrong with Theological liberalism? It is they have conjured up a Jesus that’s a sissy. . . they’ve conjured up a Jesus that we can beat up.’ He said, ‘It’s hard to worship a guy that you can whoop his tail!’ (laughs thunder throughout the sanctuary). On the other hand, we create Jesus a wild man . . . and we buy hook, line, and sinker to a wild heart kind of Theology . . . which is really no Theology . . . and we turn Jesus into some type of outdoor woodsman . . . who sits in a deerstand (treestand) scratching himself (laughs thunder again). . . Now you find either one of those for me in the Word of God . . . No, we make Him into something that He is not. . . because we have not studied the Word as we ought . . . and we don’t really know . . .we can’t really give a clear, consistent, comprehensive understanding of the Person and the Work of Christ. Over the last several weeks, in preparation for this, I did something I normally don’t do . . . I listened watched more and more preaching on television . . . and more and more on the radio . . . and it made me sick! . . . it flat-out nauseated me . . . and some of that which I was watching was BEING DONE BY SOUTHERN BAPTIST! . . . now I learned a lot about some of my friends . . . I learned a lot about their experiences . . . I learned a lot about what they think . . . Do you know one of the reasons why I am committed to expository preaching? . . .it’s because I don’t really give a rip (Danny Akin signature series cliche) what I think . . . I really don’t . . . and I really don’t know that much to impress you or to help you . . . but I do know the One who does (Amens thunder throughout the crowd). . . and He has revealed Himself with crystal-clear clarity . . . in His Word! . . . Now people all the time say to me . . . listen to me . . . this is where I am going to make some of you mad! . . . people say to me all the time, ‘Well, I’m an expository preacher.’ . . .well I can’t tell it by the way you do it! . . . (a holy hush is seen throughout the sanctuary!) . . . You say, ‘Maybe you can help me out then.’ I’m gonna help you out! (laughter throughout the sanctuary!) . . . It’s really very simple, it’s not nearly as complicated as we make it. . . Expository preaching is simply TEXT-DRIVEN preaching. . . that’s what it is! You let the text determine both the substance and the structure of what you say. Now I’m going to ask you a question; I’m going to get in your business. What if your people, in your church, who teach Bible study, handled the Bible in their Bible study, in exactly the same way you handle the Bible when you stand behind the pulpit, Sunday after Sunday! (A great holy hush is experienced!). . . would that be a good thing? Sometimes men say to me, ‘Well Bible study is for Sunday School; I need to do something different in the pulpit.’ If it’s good enough for Sunday School, why isn’t it good enough for the pulpit? (An intense holy hush is evident!). If they need to be taught in Bible Study, what makes you think they don’t need to be taught the Bible from the pulpit? Now again, I have a friend that is an atheist. He involved himself in Southern Baptist life for a number of months and then wrote a book about us. He said, ‘I’m gonna tell you something . . . you guys have the most creative, the most entertaining, the most dynamic . . . I mean . . . your preachers are fun. . . to listen to . . . they don’t say much . . . but they’re fun to listen to. . . You know what? I’d rather you be no fun at all . . . but teach me the Word . . . rather than be an incredible communicator . . . in fact, that’s the new thing now, we don’t want to be called preachers anymore . . .do we? . . . ‘I’m not a preacher, I’m not a pastor, I’m a communicator . . . What the heck does that mean? (Laughter erupts throughout the sanctuary). . . Is that a spiritual gift I missed somewhere in the Bible . . . I . . . I . . .I . . . I can’t find that one. (Laughter again). I’m sorry, I can’t find that one . . . no, God called me to be a Pastor/Theologian . . . and God called me to be a preacher! And I don’t care what generation it is. You know, here’s the thing . . . and while we’re out here, let’s just go ahead and jump into all of it . . . (laughter again throughout the sanctuary). . . “John Piper . . . my friend!. . . I don’t agree with him in every part of Theology . . . but why is John Piper so popular with our teenagers, and our college kids, and our young adults? I tell you why! . . . .Number one, He has a BIG God-glorifying vision . . . He has a big God in his Theology. . . Secondly, he also has a glorious vision of Christ. . . . And thirdly, he teaches Theology . . . he teaches his people to think Theologically. . . so that they can identify with what is going on in verse 7 (the text Akin was exegeting) . . .
“ . . .Too often, our congregations are poorly trained by those of us who preach. Here’s what happens when we feed our congregations a steady diet of moralistic preaching . . . now listen to me . . . stay with me . . . they may learn to be kind . . . forgiving. . . loving . . . a good husband . . . a good wife . . . all these are good things, of course . . . their heart may be warmed . . . and even edified . . . but as long as the Theological foundation is neglected . . . the wolf of heresy lurks even more closely! You say, ‘How?’ Not because the pastor, himself, is heretical . . . he may be fully orthodox . . . faithful to his own Theology . . . YET . . . he assumes Theology . . . in his preaching . . . and, therefore, he neglects to preach to his people the story line and the Theology of the Bible. In the next generation or two, therefore, the congregation may inadvertedly and unknowingly call a more liberal pastor! This new pastor will also preach that people should be good . . .kind and loving . . . he also will emphasis the importance of good marriages and dynamic relationships . . . people in the pew may not even discern the difference . . . since the Theology sounds just like the Theology of the conservative pastor who preceded him . . . AND IN A SENSE, IT WAS . . . FOR THE CONSERVATIVE PASTOR NEVER PROCLAIMED OR PREACHED HIS THEOLOGY! THE CONSERVATIVE PASTOR BELIEVED IN THE INERRANCY OF THE SCRIPTURE . . . BUT NOT IT’S SUFFICIENCY! HE DID NOT PROCLAIM ALL THAT THE SCRIPTURES TEACH . . . TO HIS CONGREGATION . . .
“ . . . And I say to my students again, and again, and again, ‘ What you say is more important than how you say it. But, how you say it has never been more important’. . .Now let me say that again, What you say, the content, the substance, I beg you by the blood atonement of Christ, let it be the faithful teaching, chapter by chapter, verse-by-verse, phrase-by-phrase, word-by-word of the Word of God . . . what you say is more important than how you say it . . . but how you say it has never been more important! . . . Let me follow it up . . . I believe it is a sin to teach and preach the Bible poorly . . . I believe it is a sin! You say, ‘Well, Danny, God didn’t give me an Adrian Rogers voice.’ He didn’t give me one either! . . . ‘Well, He didn’t give me that poetic voice of the Jerry Vines.’ He didn’t give me that either. ‘He didn’t give me that situation where I can study 30 hours a week like John MacArthur.’ I don’t have that either. But I do know this, I can take what God has given me, and give it back to him as an offering , and say, ‘Dear Lord, what I can give you is not much. But what I have I give to you; and Lord, I will take the gifts and abilities you have given me, and I will work my best to teach your world accurately and comprehensively, and truthfully, and to teach it well.’ When I was in Bible College, I preached in preaching class like some of you did . . . Unfortunately, my preaching professor was a man named Paige Patterson, (Snickers are heard) who is extremely derelict in the area of sanctification . . . (Laughter) . . . You can tell him I said that (more laughter) . . . he is also my father in the ministry . . . one of my heroes . . . and, though, he has been taking a lot of hits lately . . . I’m going to tell you something . . . if it were not for Paige Patterson, most of you would not be here in this room today . . . I wouldn’t be here. . . I guarantee it! . . . So I go into his office, he sits down and turns on the TV . . . sitting right by my side, we began to watch me preach on video . . . after about five minutes, he turns the TV off . . . and says, ‘I just can’t take anymore.’ (Much laughter breaks out) . . . and that will bless you . . . I’m 20 years old. . . I mean, I’m just a baby . . . ‘I can’t take anymore of that’ . . . then he turns it (TV) off. . . he looks me in the face and then he says, ‘Let me say several things to you. Number one, you actually handled the text quiet well. . . you have the potential to be a very fine expositor . . . Secondly, your diction is horrendous. . . people in Georgia really can understand what you are saying? Number three, I will not go into the grammatical mistakes that you made. . . my red ink pen ran out.’ (laughter) And then he said, ‘This is the bottom line, Mr. Akin, you will make a fine preacher for painters, and plumbers, and ditch-diggers . . . there’s nothing wrong with being a preacher for painters, plumbers, and ditch-diggers . . and you are going to be for them fine right now, like you are . . . If, however, you wish to make yourself more available for the Lord . . . so that he might even use you to speak to the lawyer, the banker, and the doctor, that he might even be able to use you, not only in the deep south, but even in the northeast, the midwest, or the west coast . . . you’ve got a lot of work to do! ’ . . . And he got up and walked out of his office and left me sitting there. I am so grateful that he loved me enough to throw that gauntlet down at my feet. He challenged me on one hand, ‘Don’t you ever divert from the Word and be a faithful expositor of the Word. And yet you compliment that with a desire to be a good, faithful, and effective communicator’, . . . No preacher, ‘of the Word of God.’ Gentlemen, we don’t have to settle for one or the other. . . we can put both together, and if we will, we will be the faithful Pastor/Theologian that God has called us to be. . . we will train a people who will know what they believe and why they believe it . . . and when the sirens of Maderdy come against them and try to deceive them, we will not have to be standing at their side to make sure that they don’t fall . . . because we will have trained them so well . . . whether we are there or not . . . they will be equipped to discern between that which is right and that which is wrong . . . that which is true and that which is error. ”
My biggest problem is the ecumenical nature of PDC movement.
We have to water down our beliefs and doctrine to make ourselves attractive to to the unbelivers.
This is already happening at BBC. Remember all the excuses posters in used explaining the $25k gift to FUMC.
For anyone coming to this site over the holidays...
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church is elder ruled by a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The congregation needs to be awakened to this. I agree with Bin Wonderin:
We need:
1. An apology to the congregation for mocking us at Union City. After all, some of us didn't fall off the cabbage truck yesterday!
2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC.
3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
4. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else
5. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week;
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.
9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.
AND I would like to add...
10. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... AND any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
11. The END of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members.
12. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members. Also:
13. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
14. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
15. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
16. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation and be approved--not rubber stamped.
By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic.
All in my opinion as usual.
Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
Repost:
NHisName said...
Bellevue Members Please do NOT move your membership just yet. If you need time to reflect on where God wants you maybe it would be good to worship somewhere else for a time BUT there is going to come a time when we will need your vote and if your membership is somewhere else you will not be able to help us.
To those of you who know some who are going elsewhere please ask them to pray diligently BEFORE moving their membership. That would just be playing into the leaderships hands and we would never get enough people to make a difference.
Only move your membership when you absolutely KNOW that God is telling you to do so.
I believe that our number is growing and that God is on our side but Satan is alive and well not only at Bellevue but here in Memphis as a whole. I perswonally talked with a man today who did not know any facts but after talking with him for over an hour he has really changed his mind and he will be talking with his wife and I know her too. When she sees the truth she will also be onboard.
We just need to talk with our friends who have their heads in the sand and let them know what is really happening.
Be careful what you say and who you say it to on this site because many non christians are reading these posts along with some of Bellevues leadership.
Also be careful not to let them know too much about what we are doing. The more information they have to more easily they will be able to fend it off.
25yrs+: you are so decieved and now you are leading others down the same path. you and others will be held accountable for what you are doing.
b
Danny Akin and Brother Steve are very close friends!! trust me, he is not on your side of what is going on.
also 25yrs: that is your list (flesh and self) and not God's
I'm not concerned with who Danny Akin calls his friend...everything he said is right on the money...weak preaching is a huge problem...Al Mohler and Paige Patterson are friends...but opposite ends of the theological spectrum. And btw...I'm not looking for a "side"..or allies...a thing is what it is...nothing more nothing less.
posted: Also be careful not to let them know too much about what we are doing. The more information they have to more easily they will be able to fend it off.
REPLY: wow!!
allofgrace,
Do you know what church Danny Akin preaches at?
Tim,
He's president of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary
http://www.sebts.edu/president/about/index.cfm
all the info you need on Danny Akin
Hey hisservent can you read????
"New BBC Open Forum said...
PLEASE STOP AND THINK BEFORE YOU HIT "PUBLISH" AND STOP ACTING LIKE A BUNCH OF CHILDREN!"
This gets closer to the heart of the matter:
Dr Akin and Dr Gaines are friends, so Dr Akin is obviously on Dr Gaines side.
I don't know if this is true as asserted in a previous post by someone opposing us, though I do know Dr Akin asked that an article of his saying things similar to the address above be removed from the savingbellevue site.
One thing is certain: the above response citing friendship as the deciding factor in Dr Akin's motivation is telling.
Such motivation is also reflected in the twisted loyalty we see popping up everywhere. We have people ready to compromise their values, beliefs, and integrity (even things they may have said at convention or written) because they are friends with or have the approval of certain others.
This is not acceptable friends.
hisservant-1 wrote:
"I will only be on here for a few more days."
I didn't think I'd ever say this about anything you've written, but Mr. Deacon -- and I'm sure I speak for "many" when I do -- please click here.
Does the "b" stand for anything in particular?
NASS
"blessedwiyhthetruth said--
If Pastor Steve wants to distance himself from PDC movement, one of the things he can do is remove the PDC material from the bookstore at our church."
That is a capitial idea.This would show a change in steve G's heart.Don't hold your breath though, he needs the materials to continue in his quest to turn Bellevue into a PDC.
allofgrace,
This guy has it right down the middle. It is a pity that somewhere like GBC couldn't get him to come be their preacher.
It is interesting that he preferred referring to himself as a preacher, not a pastor, not a minister, but a preacher. We need more preachers that are exactly like what he described. The Word of God is sufficent. We don't need another program. We need the Word of God and nothing else.
hisservant-1 wrote:
"I will only be on here for a few more days."
So your term is ending and you are rotating out.Who will be sloted to take your place?
sorry about the B. just a miss type. i have done it several times in the past sorry. i simply just have no idea how to edit a post etc. I did not notice until after I posted
how do you edit?
Tim,
Amen...Actually when I first objected to the PDL, it was mostly because I was sick of studies done around some book...then I took a look at it...and I knew why I felt that way...most if not all of these books are pablum...it's not enough to believe the Bible is infallible and inerrant...we have to also believe it's sufficient.
sola scriptura
custos,
I am not familar with Danny Akin and perhaps you are. You will have to forgive me, but I am not sure that I quite understood your post.
Were your comments to the effect that Danny Akin asked that his words be removed from the savingbellevue site, because he was a friend of Steve Gaines?
Do his words only apply to preachers that he does not support, and they do not apply to preachers that he does support?
hisservant-1 wrote:
"how do you edit?"
Once you hit "Publish" you can't. You delete and repost.
i do not even know how to delete. sorry, i know many do it, but I never have. thanks
Tiny little trashcan at the lower lefthand corner just below the time stamp on your comment(s). Click on it. You must be logged in or it won't work.
allofgrace,
I remember well going thru this study in our Bible fellowship class and thinking at the time how shallow the study was. It was astounding to me that the teacher would go gaga over the depth of it. It would honestly make we wonder if I were missing something. Hindsight, I believe that it was much ado about nothing.
hisservant,
You may not see the trash can, though, to delete your posts. I have commented on other sites before and I saw it but I never saw it on this site, so you may not either.
hisservant,
Also, I have an idea about something...could you please email me? I know that you don't want to reveal who are you, and I understand that.. but you can create a free email account @ mail.yahoo.com and under first name put 'His' and last name 'Servant' and still be anonymous. Just make up an irrelevant username too and you'll be safe.
acefromthebbcforum@yahoo.com is my address if you can do that...if you don't want to, of course it is understandable!
Sorry Tim, I didn't mean to be unclear, but looks like you got what I was driving at despite my ramblings (Well done!). It's exactly what you said, "Do his words only apply to preachers that he does not support, and they do not apply to preachers that he does support?"
And I don't mean to limit the disucssion to Dr Akin. He was simply a handy example. And he may be totally clear here--he certainly was right in his speech posted above--but it's frustrating that he'd seemingly not want his comments applied to Dr Gaines.
This posses the question, "At what point is one no longer to be held to the same standards as everyone else?" Also, "Who decides what that point is?"
hmmm. i thought that was the way, but there is no little trash can and has never been. why? thanks again
ace, hisservant1,
you have to log in to see the trash can
ace: give me till tomorrow and I will try to email you then. thanks
Tim,
What blew my mind about it was that everyone was carrying around the book like it was the Bible..quoting from it..even the leader in SS assembly would quote from it instead of scripture..it was sickening to me.
allofgrace,
you have to log in to see the trash can
I am logged in... Always on my screen it shows me 'You're currently posting as ace.' - that means I'm logged in, right?
i thought I am logged in? i am posting.
i agree ace. not understanding this. i have never seen a trash can
You should see it then...it may be the browser you're using.
If you have anything like a pop-up blocker or image blocker turned on it may keep it from showing up
Allforgrace, you're echoing my thoughts exactly during the whole PDL mess, what was it, four years ago? I think my favorite was when PDL's were making it to church and Bibles weren't!
And how did we not see this mess coming? :-/
Ace,
I'm using Firefox 1.5 and Internet Explorer 7.0 and seeing the trash can just fine.
If you're not using firefox, you might want to think about it. It's the best browser out there right now IMHO. Much faster than IE and the features are way better too.
Best,
Josh
custos,
I first knew it was really here when we had a visiting pastor from a church plant in Florida come speak to us in SS assembly. He was telling us how his church was trying to reach a specific "target" group. He said in order to do that they didn't use words like "repentance" or "Jesus" when witnessing, because they were too "threatening"...so they just broached the subject of "God"...which in mho is a bit too broad in this day and age of so many different concepts of who God is. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. When it was over..the assembly leader got up all teary eyed and said.."I hope ya'll got that."...well..I got it all right...this church plant is supported by Bellevue...scary.
Lol, just like FUMC. ;-)
What is so deceptive about the whole thing is how simple it is.
The first thing I said when I got to the first chapter. "It's not about you". Is wow, I've been saying that for years.
But it is also very subliminal in a very simplistic way. I honestly believe that we should learn from this and other movements to never depart from the Bible. A commentary could be good, but it is not the Bible.
Whatever happened to the old fashioned, industrial strength, Biblical gospel?
Tim,
Well, the whole premise is faulty anyhow...Jesus didn't die to give us a purpose...he died to save us from the wrath to come..and the power of sin.
They've got one of those good old fashioned preachers down at a church in Florida. I think it is called Idlewild. Seems like his name may have been Ken Whitten. I've heard that guy preach before. He preaches the Word, exactly as it is.
allofgrace,
That is an excellant point, why did I not think of it at the time that we were going thru that study. Christ did not die to give us a purpose.
I once knew a good Bible preacher that said, "We are saved from the penalty of sin, freed from the power of sin and one grand and glorious day, we will be rid of the presence of sin." Even so, come Lord Jesus.
The definition of the PDC is simple.
It is a church who does everything they can to take the place of the Holy Spirit by setting spiritual booie traps to catch the unsaved so they can take the glory away from the Holy Spirit.
A lot of preachers, pastors, teachers, evangelist, laymen witnesses ect really believe that by being clever or entertaining, or make one last alter call, THEY can get somebody saved instead of trusting what the word of God says. The Holy Spirit is the one who draws all men to Christ.
I feel to do anything other than trusting the Holy Spirit for salvation is
blasphemiug the Holy Spirit.
It is a scarry thing to watch in action.
Oh, Tim! You've brought up one of my favorite people: Ken Whitten!
This is a statement totally unrelated to this thread's topic, but man I do miss Ken!
For months after Dr Rogers died, I regularly listened to Ken's eulogy. I still pull it up every so often. I'm pretty sure I've done it a couple of times in the last month.
You know, I'm not sure there's been a time when Ken preached at Bellevue that I didn't learn something new. He's a precious brother.
hisservant-1's days are limited... That's good news. By the way hisservant thinks I'm deceived.
I just want Bellevue to operate like a church ought to operate... with genuine accountability to the membership, real rotation of lay leadership, and respect for the feelings of all of the membership when it comes to "change."
I believe someone told Dr. Gaines that he was moving to fast... Many members echo that concern and are also concerned about many other problems linked to heavy handed leadership that lacks real accountability to, two-way communication with, and oversight by the congregation.
Many members felt like they had barely had time to grieve for the former pastor when they began to watch their church of a lifetime being buried as well. Just my opinion.
They say a picture's worth a thousand words, so perhaps a video (a short one) is worth a million:
It's All About Me
Turn up your sound.
NASS
Regarding Mt. 18, the need for a scriptural forum and regular business meetings:
Some have been calling for Mt. 18 to be followed since the beginning of these problems related to Mark Sharpe, Riad Saba, etc.
Others have said either that Mt. 18 had not been followed, did not apply, or did not apply to the pastor. But, no one is above the Word of God.
The quotation below comes from a time when there was a similar problem. Luther brought charges against the Pope; however, in Luther's day the Pope controlled any attempt to bring about a free, impartial forum to resolve the differences that existed. The Pope said that he was above the temporal law, or that his interpretation of the scripture was the true interpretation, or when any attempt was made to call a council the Pope claimed to be the only one with power to call a council.
Bellevue is in a similar mess. There may be legal matters that need to be dealt with. There are those saying that Mt. 18 is not the way to handle these problems. All that is happening seems to be the current leader(s) blocking attempts at a scriptural forum.
Luther believed that it was necessary for true believers to do whatever was in their power to see to it that such a scriptural, free, forum that would seek the truth be established.
Since the biblcal process was short-circuited by leadership, similar forums have popped up on the internet.
Still, we need Mt. 18 to be exercised. And we need regular, quarterly business meetings so that the membership does not remain voiceless. In my opinion as usual.
Martin Luther refers to Matthew 18
Address to the Christian Nobility
of the German Nation
(1520)
The Romanists have, with great adroitness, drawn three walls round themselves, with which they have hitherto protected themselves, so that no one could reform them, whereby all Christendom has fallen terribly.
First, if pressed by the temporal power, they have affirmed and maintained that the temporal power has no jurisdiction over them, but, on the contrary, that the spiritual power is above the temporal.
Secondly, if it were proposed to admonish them with the Scriptures, they objected that no one may interpret the Scriptures but the Pope.
Thirdly, if they are threatened with a council, they pretend that no one may call a council but the Pope ...
Now may God help us, and give us one of those trumpets that overthrew the walls of Jericho, so that we may blow down these walls of straw and paper, and that we may set free our Christian rods for the chastisement of sin, and expose the craft and deceit of the devil, so that we may amend ourselves by punishment and again obtain God's favour.
.... The third wall falls of itself, as soon as the first two have fallen; for if the Pope acts contrary to the Scriptures, we are bound to stand by the Scriptures to punish and to constrain him, according to Christ's commandment . 'tell it unto the Church' (Matt. xviii. 15-17). . . . If then I am to accuse him before the Church, I must collect the Church together. . . .Therefore when need requires, and the Pope is a cause of offence to Christendom, in these cases whoever can best do so, as a faithful member of the whole body, must do what he can to procure a true free council.
Tim I will give a SHERLOCK HOLMES standing ovation if you have properly identified who SG and Ace really are!
I meant to say...
If yoy know who HisServant 1 and Ace are!
did you mean to post a video link etc?
Here's a little PD humor.
Link
Link
Great point 25YBC, "desire for accountability" + "suspicion at lack of accountability" + "asking reasonable questions" = "Deceived"
That's the equation folks. Pretty boring--and implausable--when you break it down too.
Is anyone else amazed at the number of people promoting the above equation?
Thanks custos for all you have done. From the elderly to the younger generation, many are waking up. We still need to pray.
Many Christian have been rocked gently to sleep by men who have slowly been taking a little glory for theirself, here and there.
No one was ever saved by a "method".
Rom 1:16 "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes....."
For anyone coming to this site over the holidays...
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church is elder ruled by a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The congregation needs to be awakened to this. I agree with Bin Wonderin:
We need:
1. An apology to the congregation for mocking us at Union City. After all, some of us didn't fall off the cabbage truck yesterday!
2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC.
3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
4. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else
5. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week;
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.
9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.
AND I would like to add...
10. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... AND any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
11. The END of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members.
12. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members. Also:
13. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
14. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
15. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
16. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping."
By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic.
17. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
All in my opinion as usual.
Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
Thanks, 25. If I may presume something from your name, I'll thank you for helping to lay the foundation we're trying to hold together right now. Thank you.
hisservant-1 wrote:
"did you mean to post a video link etc?"
Not sure to whom you're addressing the question, but I did (post a video link).
NASS
The points here are excellent. I pulled my PDL book off the shelf and thumbed thru a bit.
Before you ever begin the study there is a covenant to sign. Then all thru the book important "passages" are highlighted. Then in conjunction with the SS study, we had the PDL discussion groups that met during the week.
Instead of focusing on a book written by a guy, we need to be studying The Book authored by God Himself.
jcsuitt said:
"I challenge anyone to give one example of something that has been said during a sermon that would be considered a compromise to biblical truth...date and message with exact quote within context."
If I may, this was from the November 5th morning sermon entitled "Saved and Single" regarding couples living together without the benefit of marriage, and twice he prefaced his remarks with phrases like, "Now, I don't want to come down too hard on you... " and "I'm not condemning you here.... " (I'm not going to listen to the audio right now to find it, but that was a good paraphrasing of it.) A friend commented at lunch that day, "Well, isn't that his job?" I mean, he blasted the "adversaries" and the "rebellious ones" for asking legitimate questions, which last time I checked my Bible, isn't a sin, but he handled those committing a real and specific sin with kid gloves. Doesn't make much sense.
NASS
jcsuitt...
Those principles are biblical (doctrine of the priesthood of the believer), practical, best-practice in the SBC, tried and true... and might I add they follow the highest law of loving one's neighbor...
jcsuitt,
So do you consider the donation to FUMC to be an issue of relevancy in order to reach people where they are or is that an all together different matter?
Our love for God and our love for our neighbor are the hinges of the door of blessing... The door doesn't swing well when only one is working...
Someone may talk about their love of God all day long... but if they aren't loving their neighbor, then their love for God isn't related to God's will.
I don't care how well someone preaches, teaches, etc. if love for the whole membership is missing.
I'm glad when it comes to His sheep that "Just go somewhere else" doesn't come from the Good Shepherd's mouth.
FUMC has been on the table for at least a week. Ignorance is an excuse used too often by too many.
Jcsuitt said:
"to be honest I am not aware of the situation with FUMC to make a statement for or against. IF it was a contribution that would compromise biblical truth then it was NOT right but again I am not as up on the situation as maybe I should be...sorry?!?! "
Reply: Please do some more reading before coming here to lecture us... Thanks and goodnight.
25+,
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
This is one of the most cherished verse to me. How often have I prayed this verse back to God in times of need or trouble.
Amen Tim...
jscuitt wrote:
"Again I asked give it in FULL context. What came after that statement? Did he say living together is ok?"
You can listen to it for yourself. As I recall it was pretty close to the beginning, but I don't have time to go listen to the whole thing right now.
Of course he didn't say it was okay. He said something like, "You need to move out today." That was as strong as it ever got.
NASS
jcsuitt...
If you care so much for Bellevue, then surely you will do your own homework... There are 422 posts on the last $25,000 thread on this site. You were lecturing me. I am not upset with you, etc. To the contrary... calmly saying that you don't have your facts straight, so don't be so dogmatic either. So far as character is concerned, I've not questioned yours.
jcsuitt,
Welcome to the world of being attacked and questioned and ridiculed because you disagree with the majority of the posters here.
If you aren't anti-Gaines, then you aren't welcome here. This is what I have discovered over the past few weeks. It's really pathetic if you ask me...
Reposted from another thread:
GBC_Member said...
>>>>>> I had heard one time that Sam Shaw mentioned during a meeting or a service or something that he wasn't doing anything that BBC wasn't already doing, as far as elder rule. Can you confirm this?? <<<<<<
I never heard anything like this. He did say often that he was not proposing anything that “many other Baptist churches” were not already doing. I don’t recall him ever mentioning BBC.
>>>>>> Sam Shaw is a godly man. He is not the problem. <<<<<<
Sam is only your problem to the extent he has the ear of Dr. Gaines. History suggests Sam has no qualms about ripping a church in two if that is what it takes to get what he wants. Many members got on their knees – literally – with tears flowing in Sam’s office begging – yes begging and pleading with him to back off the elder rule and heal GBC. He ignored their pleas, split the church, encouraged staff to leave and then walked away leaving the mess for others to clean up. Whether Dr. Gains is willing to split your church in an effort to get what he desires I cannot say. From personal experience I can tell you that Sam Shaw will, because he did.
Sam was very pro the purpose driven church movement and often sent pastors to Rick Warren’s Saddleback church for training. Has BBC sent any pastors there for training? It was no secret Sam was purpose driven, many Saddleback members came to GBC during Katrina to help serve the evacuees. Sam spoke of he and Rick Warren being good friends. Maybe Dr. Gaines is not a fan of the purpose driven model, but Sam Shaw most definitely is. Sam was also a big fan of the seeker movements from Willow Creek.
5:34 PM, November 24, 2006
Josh,
If you're not using firefox, you might want to think about it. It's the best browser out there right now IMHO. Much faster than IE and the features are way better too.
Finally something we can agree on! :) FireFox is what I use...very occasionally do I use IE.
Tim I will give a SHERLOCK HOLMES standing ovation if you have properly identified who SG and Ace really are!
Have fun with that, why don't you...
CORRRECTION: healingbalm was the 2nd person I quoted in the above post.
Sorry, Josh!
jssuitt,
Let me give you a brief background. The FUMC burned and they had insurance to cover the damage. They have an extremely liberal lady that is a pastor named Martha Wagley. She has been very outspoken in her defense of homo-sexuality and abortion.
FUMC is a downtown church and provides food and clothing for the needy and homeless.
BBC donated $25,000 to FUMC to help them in their time of need.
That should bring you up to date on this issue.
Jcsuitt,
Come now, I have character. I can present plenty of people who've told me time and again, "Josh, you're a character." Now that's gotta mean something.
I didn't lecture you, and I didn't call you ignorant. I said you were using ignorance as an excuse.
That's not out of line. Also, had I said you were ignorant, it wouldn't have been out of line either since you said you didn't know about the FUMC situation.
You ask for facts, ok, here are two: First, the term ignorant isn't an insult. It's a word that means lacking in knowledge. That's what you said you were. I acknowledged it and said that's not a good excuse. Second, go check out http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=36564514&postID=116421177364024991
It's got all the info you need on the FUMC situation.
Also, I forgive you ;-)
Tim,
FUMC is a downtown church and provides food and clothing for the needy and homeless.
Not to get off topic, but this is why a donation was given. Not to support their liberal views but to help the needy. I highly doubt that food is insured.
God knows the heart of the people involved in the donation and purpose of the donation and that is all that matters.
And Tim, I know you disagree with the donation so you don't have to respond back to me.
God forbid Bellevue help the homeless, the starving, the freezing, etc. What a shame that would be.
ANY money to FUMC might be directed to a certain pocket, but that just frees up more cash for some other agenda. No excuse will do. Pleading short time in town? I thought he was a Ph.D.? Pleading they give to the poor? So do some cults out there. Blame a committee? The buck should stop with the Pastor. Saying the money came from benevolence? Then it was given at Bellevue's Lord's Supper to FUMC... think about it! NO EXCUSE WILL DO. All in my opinion as usual.
Ace,
I don't want to get off target here either. Read the last several post on the $25k thread.
Thanks
Ace... Washington needs you... You are the spin meister of the century.
Ace,
Bellevue has participated in the slaughter of over 800 unborn children.
So will helping the starving, freezing, poor justify that.
Tim,
Based on your post in post in the thread,
Has it really sunk in that this $25,000 would fund the execution of over 800 unborn children?
And you know the funds Bellevue gave are going to kill children..how? Oh wait, you don't.
Has it really sunk in that this $25,000 would help feed people over 5000 meals? (based on $5 per meal)- And perhaps it would save the lives of people dying of starvation in the process?
Just something to think about...
25years,
Ace... Washington needs you... You are the spin meister of the century.
I'm a 'spin meister' because I post something positive. How wonderful is that...
Again - just because you disagree with me does not mean I am wrong.
Ace...
Then let's give the $25,000 to Memphis Union Mission right down the street and not free up $25,000 for the Rev. Martha's pro-homosexul, pro-abortion agenda ...
in my opinion as usual.
Good point Tim.
I'm off to bed.
Good night, All.
Good sheep, stay good.
Other sheep, hang out, have fun, sharpen the arguments bolstering that crazy equation of yours, and remember to say that we're calling you names and being hateful every chance you get. After all, a change in your strategy might be too great a jolt for me to bare. ;-)
Repost:
NHisName said...
Bellevue Members Please do NOT move your membership just yet. If you need time to reflect on where God wants you maybe it would be good to worship somewhere else for a time BUT there is going to come a time when we will need your vote and if your membership is somewhere else you will not be able to help us.
To those of you who know some who are going elsewhere please ask them to pray diligently BEFORE moving their membership. That would just be playing into the leaderships hands and we would never get enough people to make a difference.
Only move your membership when you absolutely KNOW that God is telling you to do so.
I believe that our number is growing and that God is on our side but Satan is alive and well not only at Bellevue but here in Memphis as a whole. I perswonally talked with a man today who did not know any facts but after talking with him for over an hour he has really changed his mind and he will be talking with his wife and I know her too. When she sees the truth she will also be onboard.
We just need to talk with our friends who have their heads in the sand and let them know what is really happening.
Be careful what you say and who you say it to on this site because many non christians are reading these posts along with some of Bellevues leadership.
Also be careful not to let them know too much about what we are doing. The more information they have to more easily they will be able to fend it off.
For anyone coming to this site over the holidays...
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church is elder ruled by a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The congregation needs to be awakened to this. I agree with Bin Wonderin:
We need:
1. An apology to the congregation for mocking us at Union City. After all, some of us didn't fall off the cabbage truck yesterday!
2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC.
3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
4. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else
5. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week;
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.
9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.
AND I would like to add...
10. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... AND any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
11. The END of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members.
12. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members. Also:
13. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
14. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
15. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
16. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation and be approved--not rubber stamped.
By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic.
All in my opinion as usual.
Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
Arg, one more comment: Money is fungible. $25,000 for clothes frees up $25,000 to kill babies. Works for any amount of money you want.
25years,
Then let's give the $25,000 to Memphis Union
Good idea. I challenge each and everyone here to make a donation to the Memphis Union to help them with their meals. Or at least go there and volunteer your time to help serve the people...I've done it before and it is an awesome experience.
25years+,
No offense, but you reposting that stuff a bazillion times will not help anything. We have already read it 100 times, and all it is doing it cluttering this page + making it slow for everyone else.
Seriously, though, you don't need to keep posting it every 5 minutes. (and yes, 5 minutes is an exaggerated amount, so don't quote me on that).
I guess you'll have to stay up a little later to bury it Ace...
Strikes a nerve does it? Especially # 13... in my opinion of course.
Nite.
25years,
I guess you'll have to stay up a little later to bury it Ace...
Probably not because it's just going to get reposted in...hmm...probably 3 minutes now?
Strikes a nerve does it?
No, not at all. It's just very obnoxious to have to keep scrolling over that incredibly long post that everyone has already seen 100 times.
Ace... I'm just warming up... The list is growing as the board contributes... 101 coming soon to a Forum near you...
Ace... I'm just warming up... The list is growing as the board contributes... 101 coming soon to a Forum near you...
I look forward to 1) reading your new points and then 2) scrolling past them for the 50 more times you post it after you get to your goal.
ace said...
25years+,
No offense, but you reposting that stuff a bazillion times will not help anything. We have already read it 100 times, and all it is doing it cluttering this page + making it slow for everyone else.
ace ,why are you so mean and rude to this person. he has a right to post just like you.Are showing Christian love???
25+yrs@BBC said...
For anyone coming to this site over the holidays...
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church is elder ruled by a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The congregation needs to be awakened to this. I agree with Bin Wonderin:
We need:
1. An apology to the congregation for mocking us at Union City. After all, some of us didn't fall off the cabbage truck yesterday!
2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC.
3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
4. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else
5. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week;
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.
9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.
AND I would like to add...
10. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... AND any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
11. The END of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members.
12. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members. Also:
13. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
14. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
15. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
16. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping."
By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic.
17. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
All in my opinion as usual.
Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
11:18 PM, November 24, 2006
popesteve, 25+yrs@bbc and ace,
Unnecessary!
NBBCOF
stillwaitingandwatching said...
"Can we please take the $25K discussion to the Life Choices thread. We are having the same discussions.......thanks.... "
How easily we are led off topic! May I make a couple of points?
(1) The FUMC donation happened because of the existance of PDC type of church government at BBC. Steve Gaines is accountable to no one. The congregation would never have approved that donation.
(2) A PDC model church does not have to be "all or none". Rick Warren teaches that pastors must be flexable. The fact that some aspect of the PDC model church does not exist as BBC is not an argument that the PDC model is not being used.
(3) The PDC church model requires an elder led church. Consolidation of power has serious consequences.
We have been discussing and dealing with these consequences.
NASS
Thanks for listing the links for this thread.PDC is even worse than I thought.I am taken back that RW considers Christian Fundamentatlism so dangerous as to equate it to Muslims ect.
"Warren predicts that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be "one of the big enemies of the 21st century."
"Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism - they're all motivated by fear. Fear of each other."
FIVE FUNDAMENTALS OF THE FAITH
There are five fundamentals of the faith which are essential for Christianity, and upon which we agree:
1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:1; John 20:28; Hebrews 1:8-9).
2. The Virgin Birth (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:27).
3. The Blood Atonement (Acts 20:28; Romans 3:25, 5:9; Ephesians 1:7; Hebrews 9:12-14).
4. The Bodily Resurrection (Luke 24:36-46; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, 15:14-15).
5. The inerrancy of the scriptures themselves (Psalms 12:6-7; Romans 15:4; 2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20). [1]
Are these "legalistic and narrow" or are they Biblical? Methinks "pastor" Warren has departed "the narrow way" in his efforts to attract many lost folks to his version of "church".
I think what scares me the most after reading the "Transitioning an Established Church" section on the home page is how many of the 27 steps have already occured in our church. I don't know how anyone in leadership can say we're not becoming a PDL church: Praise Team, men's activities (wildlife), changing Sunday School to Bible Fellowship (I concede that this change took place under Dr. Rogers) and a whole mess of other subtle changes. Let me tell you one true thing - the PDL church recommends that all crosses be hidden; when the 3 crosses go missing from 2000 Appling Road; I'm outta there!
Karen
HealingBalm said...
The definition of the PDC is simple.
It is a church who does everything they can to take the place of the Holy Spirit by setting spiritual boobie traps to catch the unsaved so they can take the glory away from the Holy Spirit.
HEALINGBALM, I think you have hit upon the simple truth of what Rick Warren`s teachings are all about.
For centuries men have tried to be GOD.
There is nothing new under the sun!
Men have a lot of good ideas ( like trying to run a church like a business) but good ideas are not always GOD ideas.
Satan wanted to be just like GOD and he was cast out of heaven for that.
Satan wanted to steal God`s gloty and he convinced many of heaven`s holy angels to do the same.
There will come a reckoning day!
the PDL church recommends that all crosses be hidden; when the 3 crosses go missing from 2000 Appling Road; I'm outta there!
Karen
Sad to say when this does happen, will these people who defendwill they defend that move too.
I can hear it now "we have to reach out to the lost and we cannot offend them"
Sorry to repost again ,but I wanted to fix the typo's and for some reason I don't have that little trash can.
dontbeatthesheep said...
the PDL church recommends that all crosses be hidden; when the 3 crosses go missing from 2000 Appling Road; I'm outta there!
Karen
Sad to say when this does happen, I wonder if these people who defend every action of SG will defend that move too.
I can hear it now "we have to reach out to the lost and we cannot offend them"
11:43 AM, November 25, 2006
And on the subject of crosses,Are the little crosses on the church lawn allowed in a PDC.
I know the crosses were a gift so I wonder what excuse the leadership will give when they decided to take the crosses down. Also, does anyone know anything about the prospective sales of the organ? I had heard a little about that, but since the organ was a gift to BBC, how can it be sold?
Karen
dontbeat said...
"And on the subject of crosses,Are the little crosses on the church lawn allowed in a PDC. "
Has BBC ever put little crosses out on the lawn? I can't remember seeing them.
Karen
SW&W
I wasn't complaining about you, friend. I was just using your remark for a reference point to join the conversation.
So many of the discussions we are having relate back to the topic of this thread; the Purpose Driven Movement and are examples of what PDC brings us.
Like allofgrace and others have warned, I believe the PDC style of church administration, ie. pastor rule, is the beginning of many woes.
Chazzo,
I agree - to an extent. The Warren Tool Box and the Warren World P.E.A.C.E Plan are definitely disturbing. I cannot help but believe that the PDL book was a "foot in the door" to a lot of people, including me. I bought the book and read most of it, at one point, red flags began to wave and I put the book down, never to be opened again.
Sin is so deceptive, even the "elect" will be deceived in the end of days. We should be wary of anything that would water down the Gospel, especially entertainment of the masses to "draw" them. If that is how they are to be brought into the church, then they will leave when they get bored, just like any other form of entertainment.
The scriptures say that there will be no world peace aside from that which Jesus does and it does not have anything to say about somebody like Rick Warren manufacturing world peace. It does however call some that appear in the last days "false prophets". I would be cautious of any one promoting world peace, especially in these disturbing times.
JudgeLarry said
Let me throw this in from the outside. If the CC allowed Terry and Ted to review certain documents, and will not allow any other members upon request not to review the same. This may be viewed as discrimination. The CC need to be very careful and at this point, be very open.
Everyone at the meeting Sunday need to ask to review "ALL" credit cards for all staff member along with expense reports for the last 18 months.
Also all direct billings to the church, for the last 18 months.
The check register, bank statements, accounts payables and accounts receiveable files, all for the last 18 months.
Genesis 3:1, 3:6, 4:3, 4:7-9 ; Romans 11:26-27
The first recorded sin on earth,
THE SUBTLE SERPENTS DECEPTIONS
3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
The second recorded sin on earth,
THE SUBVERSIVE SERVANT DEFILED
3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
The third recorded sin on earth,
THE SINCERE SACRIFICE DENIED
4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door: and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
The fourth recorded sin on earth,
THE SELFISH SOLUTION DEATH
4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
The fifth recorded sin on earth,
THE SIMPLE SARCASTIC DENIAL
4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
God’s Answer to sin
THE SAVING SOVERIGN DELIVERER
Romans 11:26-27
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
How does this apply to PDC?
The subtle deception, defiled servants, denied sacrafices, selfish solutions, sarcastic denials.
There is nothing new under the sun. Before the PDC book was written THE BOOK was written.
The answer is only in God’s Answer to sin:
THE SAVING SOVERIGN DELIVERER
There is no other message that can be presented save Christ and Christ alone.
Sorry for the duplicate. I had left out the quotes, attributing my words to gbc_member. This is the corrected version, and I deleted the copy from last night.
THIS SHOULD BE REQUIRED READING! Reposted from another thread:
GBC_Member said...
Several people have reported that Steve Gaines has been meeting with Sam Shaw, some of those meetings taking place within the walls of Bellevue itself, and if he's learning from Sam Shaw what not to do, maybe we could learn a few lessons from some of Sam Shaw's former sheep.
I have been reading this blog for a while now. So if you really want to hear from a GBC person then keep reading. I am a GBC member and before that that was a member at (drum-roll please) Germantown Methodist under Martha Wagley. My family stayed there for as long as we could stand it but eventually left for GBC. I decided to register and respond to the above. I am a long time listener and contributor to Love Worth Finding.
1. Germantown Baptist ("GBC") had existing bylaws to help the congregation prevent going to a proposed "elder rule" set of bylaws that would have concentrated all the decision making in the lands of a small group of men. Sam Shaw and his right hand man would have been one the small group. The proposed structure would have allowed as few as three men (Sam being one) to control all hiring, firing, worhip style decidions and all (repeat all) of the spending decisions at the church. They would have had total absolute control... over everything.
BBC does not - based on the 1929 set I have read at the www.savingbellevue site - have a very good set of bylaws that offer much protection if any to the congregation. That is very surprising to me. I can’t say why your bylaws are so short, but I think it may be due to the excellent pastoral leadership BBC has had over the years. Such excellent leadership may have lulled the church into a false sense of security and bylaws seemed unnecessary. Bylaws are kind of like police, you only need them when there is a problem, but when you need them you really do need some good ones. A good set is designed to make sure the direction of an organization reflects the will and desire of the overall membership.
2. The GBC bylaws require a business meeting be held at least every 90 days and just as important describe when and where the meeting will take place. The way I read your 1929 BBC bylaws they require only an annual meeting. FYI - GBC has a monthly business meeting now due to the recent turmoil. The move to monthly meeting was done via congregational vote. I expect we will go back to quarterly meetings in 2007. Each of the GBC committee chairmen must come before the congregation and answer questions from the floor during the business meeting about any expenditure or issue before their committee. Recently questions raised by the congrgation in business meetings have discovered certain financial agreements that were in place that were in conflict with the bylaws. I say this only to warn you that things happen that are against the rules. You need good solid people on staff and good lay people on committees that are willing to actually read & follow rules and policy. They also need to be willing to stand up and take heat at a business meeting when they know rules are being violated. As it stands now, if a committee is doing something that any single member has an issue with, that member can make an appropriate motion from the floor. If the motion is seconded it is then debated and voted on. If this was in place at BBC you could for example make a motion, debate and then vote to require prior congregational approval for all donations to any organization exceeding $1,000. Warning: the people currently in charge of the purse will not like this very much. They may think of the purse as their money. But guess what, it belongs to the congregation. Such a policy may have prevented the $25,000 check. Remember - you must follow policy for it to be effective. As another possibility, you could vote to require the head of an organization (like FUMC) that is receiving a donation from BBC sign a statement of belief to make sure your beliefs match theirs. I doubt Martha Wagley would ever sign a statement that she agrees with the Baptist confession of faith Dr. Rogers worked so hard on. I am smiling as I type that. I KNOW she would not sign it. No signature, no money, no donation problems to false teachers. End of story.
3. GBC bylaws require the use of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised (RONR) at all business meetings. Groups larger than BBC effectively use RONR at meetings. Do not believe it when people say BBC is "too big" for congregational meetings using RONR. RONR protects the rights of the majority and if actually enforced and properly followed will allow for productive as well as good & swift meetings. Having a good moderator that knows and enforces the rules is very important. It is also important you as a member know the rules. There are several good books that explain the rules. It is also very important to have a professional parliamentarian to help your group navigate the rules at a contentious meeting. Do not underestimate the tactical tricks your opponent will use to obtain the outcome they desire. Sad but true, I saw this first hand at GBC. The GBC staff tried to manipulate the date of the "big vote" to deny many senior citizens that were on a mission trip the chance to vote. They knoew these people were against the proposal, so they tried to disenfranchise them with parlimentary tactics. Sad thing to watch. I learned some of the RONR rules the hard way in other meetings. One of the key provisions of the “proposed GBC” bylaws was the removal of the use of RONR. The reason was to further consolidate the power in the hands of the GBC elders if they had won. The BBC bylaws do not make mention of RONR. If a business meeting is held at BBC without RONR as the guide then it may be a clear sign the currently ruling BBC Elders don’t want the voice of the BBC congregation to be heard in a fair way.
4. It was organization, a website and weekly meeting of those against the proposed GBC bylaws that won the day. Unless there is a huge crowd at this weeks communication committee meeting, the BBC leadership will assume that they still have the support of the congregation.
GBC staff tried to take GBC to an elder ruled format by changing the bylaws. They did not like those pesky business and committee meetings. From what I have read here BBC is currently already elder ruled. Your church already Sam Shaw wanted. You can call it "de-facto elder rule" as opposed to edler rule established by the bylaws, but that is sure what it sounds and looks like to an outsider. I read that BBC has no business meetings, the congregation does not vote on much of anything and a small group of men accountable to no one make all the decisions. That is de facto elder rule. These men will not allow for any outside independent investigation or oversight of their financial actions. They will choose the investigator. They will not release records of the direct billed expenditures. If you had business meetings you could make a motion to make the credit card and direct bill information available to any BBC member for inspection. They would have to comply or risk exposing themselves as beyond the control of the congrgation. If such a motion passed you could do your own investigation. Currently your elders investigate themselves and they appoint a committee of their own choosing to deflect questions that are raised. This classic Stonewalling 101 and is what we feared would happen at GBC. All decisions made by a small group of men, no appeal allowed. If you don’t like it then leave. It looks like you already have something very close to the GBC proposed bylaws (the defeated ones) in practice already at BBC. Whether your bylaws allow for it or not is kind of moot right now, that is how you appear to be functionsing. I doubt GBC elders (if they had won the vote) would have ever formed a communication committee. At least you have that going for you. I humbly suggest you organize, show up in mass and use it as a forum to voice your concerns. Get organized with a list of questions and be sure to ask follow up questions. Press for a list of donations and direct billings.
That’s my take on things. Any questions or comments post them and I will try to respond.
Also please let me extend my heartfelt thanks for all BBC has done for GBC over the past year. Volunteers from BBC came and babysat during many of our information meetings and during the vote. I know many people prayed for us. Many wonderful staff have helped us during this time when over 50% of our former staff have quit. GBC is being refined like silver in the furnace of Dr. Spradlin’s Bible preaching and it feels good. Peggy Perkins, David Smith, Dr. Whitmire and perhaps others I cannot think of are wonderful Godly people. I thank God each day that GBC is getting to borrow them for at least season. I love Ms. Perkins and David Smith. David Smith preached one night after he came and my goodness what a blessing he was! I have not met Dr. Whitmire but the times I have heard him sing my spirit soars! WOW.
If you need a temporary place to get away to worship please feel free to join us for a time at GBC. I feel like BBC is GBC’s big brother. I know many at GBC have always looked up to BBC as the mighty church and fortress of God in Memphis. You were there for us when we needed you. I for one will never forget it. Maybe GBC can be there for some of you now when you need a quiet place to come and worship for a time. You are always welcome to come and hear Dr. Spradlin preach and Dr. Whitmire sing on Sunday morning and evening or Wednesday nights if you need to. Our house is your house if you need a temporary home away from home. FYI there is a praise band (which I personally like in small doses) at the late service. Dr. Whimire is at the early service and the evenings.
Good luck. I am sad for what you are going through. If you have questions I will try to respond as best I can. If you think I am butting into your business then please let me know that to and accept my apology for doing so.
2:02 PM, November 24, 2006
From the Baptist Press
Wednesday 10/25/06
13 Observations of an Evangelist
by Jerry Drace
JACKSON, Tenn. (BP)--Since February 1975 when God led me to establish the Jerry Drace Evangelistic Association He has allowed me to preach in more than 1,000 churches across our nation. In His divine providence He has placed me in the company of some of His choicest servants as well as some who seek to be served. Throughout the past 31 years I have kept notes and observations on each of the pastors, staffs and churches where my team and I have been privileged to present the claims of Christ. I am sure some of these observations will be misunderstood, others will be embraced. I wish to share only 13 in hopes they will serve as a catalyst for your own reflections:
-- I have observed the lowering of the standards of holiness from the pulpit to the pew. It appears we are seeking to develop happy churches, but not holy churches. One pastor stated that he wanted his people to leave the Sunday morning worship feeling "affirmed, approved and applauded". Whatever happened to leaving feeling confronted, convicted, confessed and cleansed? Spurgeon put it in perspective years ago when he said, "Of all the griefs the church ever feels, the keenest is when those who once stood in her midst dishonor the name of Christ by unholy living."
-- I have observed the seductive fashions of the world being worn in the worship centers of our churches. Teenage girls and sometimes their mothers wear clothes to church they neither could wear to school nor in the workplace. The same applies to the male gender. We have developed such a laxity in our attire the result has numbed the spiritual senses of being in the presence of Deity. I am fully aware that God looks on the heart, but clothing, or the lack thereof, should not distract from looking into His face.
-- I have observed more and more churches having fewer and fewer revivals. Of course, the rural church will always hold a revival, whether they actually have one or not, the third week of August. Vance Havner once said, "Preachers speak of 'holding revivals'. Somebody ought to turn one loose!" Real revival -- which takes prayer and preparation and sees scores ushered into the Kingdom and church members rekindling the fire within -- is quickly giving way to one-day events. We have stopped singing "Take Time To Be Holy," because we don't have the time.
-- I have observed more and more churches decreasing from mortification rather than increasing due to salvation. There is more life outside in most church cemeteries than inside on the pews. At least in the cemeteries the grass grows and the flowers bloom. If there is not a revival in our land many of our rural churches will become bed and breakfast inns and our larger churches will be turned into antique malls. If you don't believe this, visit Great Britain.
-- I have observed more and more churches growing by transferring letters rather than transforming lives. It doesn't take a genius to build a church numerically. Given the right staff and programs you can fill a church. However, there is an eternal difference between filling a church with people and filling the people inside the church.
-- I have observed more and more pastors and evangelists preaching someone else's sermons rather than studying and preaching their own. The call to preach has been replaced with the desire to succeed. Being an expounder of the Word requires time alone with God. Being a mouth for God to the people of God is an awesome responsibility. Preaching someone else's anointed sermon doesn't guarantee your anointment. If the sermon isn't gathered and set ablaze in the pastor's heart it likely won't spread to the hearts of the church members. Some of the greatest proclaimers of the Good News are seldom heard because they neither pastor a mega church nor are the featured speakers on Christian cruises.
-- I have observed unethical and even immoral conduct by religious leaders with little or no remorse on their part once their deeds were made public. The graveyard of compromise is filled with those who listened to the sirens of the world. Accountability and integrity were sacrificed for personal gain and puffed-up egos. When Christian leaders become legends in their own minds the ice has already broken.
-- I have observed the policies of the community dictating the policies of the church, especially in the area of sports. We now schedule the events of the church around the athletic calendar of our schools or recreational departments. We have surrendered to the god of sports. Many of our parents allow their children to play their favorite sport on Sunday morning with the rationale, "What can we do about it?" These same parents wouldn't allow their children to skip school for a church event. We even close our churches on Sunday nights if it is a national holiday. Good thing God doesn't cancel His services.
-- I have observed more and more churches teaching the latest trends in church growth rather than the doctrines of the Scriptures. We have churches full of people who can quote from the latest church growth guru, but for the life of them they can neither recall nor defend any of the doctrines of the Bible. We can be seeker friendly and purpose driven, but if we fail to seek Christ and find our purpose in Him alone all the books, seminars and mega conferences will only impede the salvation of the lost and the disciplining of the saved.
-- I have observed us becoming a people who enjoy the expression of worship without encountering the experience of worship. No one enjoys beautiful choruses more than me, yet with the freedom of style which this has ushered into our churches we must be careful not to allow our performance to overshadow His presence. Celebration without commitment leads to worthless worship.
-- I have observed religion becoming big business. Christian recording artists are now referred to as superstars and certain pastors are touted as religious CEOs. Religious leaders have evolved from troublers of society to trend-setters in society. We have religious personalities who are known as much for their political creeds as their theological convictions. Simple statements from the Bible are marketed into multimillion dollar enterprises. An executive in a Christian publication company once told me, "It's all about the buck." You half expect to see certain religious organizations listed on the New York Stock Exchange.
-- I have observed a few proclaimers who have comprised their call because of a cowardly commitment to the truths of God's Word. This brings about a deceitful delivery of devilish doctrines. The end result is a man who panders to the people and prostitutes the proclamation in the process. When wickedness enters the doors of the church it soon spreads throughout the land without any opposition. Satan himself could not have better allies than pastors who refuse to preach the truths of the Scriptures and church members who refuse to live godly lives.
-- I have observed a righteous remnant in every church who have a hunger and thirst for experiencing God to the fullest. It is this group, both young and old, who will pass on the teachings and doctrines of Holy Scripture to the next generation. Praise God for ministers and members who are not driven by fashions and trends, but remain faithful and true to fulfilling the Great Commission.
Jerry Drace is a past president of the Conference of Southern Baptist Evangelists. In addition to revivals and area wide crusades, he and his wife, Becky, conduct Hope for the Home conferences. They live in Jackson, Tenn. More information about the Draces is available at www.jdea.tn.org and www.HopefortheHome.org.
GBC_Member, thank you for the wisdom, experience, and sweet spirit.
Blessings,
Josh
GBC_Member, thank you for the wisdom, experience, and sweet spirit.
Blessings,
Josh
Thank you Josh, it is an honor to help you in any way I can.
For what it is worth I wonder if the 1929 bylaws presented to you are in fact the current bylaws which govern BBC. That is a long time to go without one single amendment. If they gave you an obsolete set of bylaws then at a minimum they misled you and at worst perhaps violated federal 501c3 law. I realize you are at school, but I hope someone will pursue a line of questioning on the bylaws at your communication committee meeting.
Reading another thread you could infer from the 1929 bylaws that monthly business meetings are to be held (hat tip 25+yrs@BBC). I hope someone will ask why business meetings are not held monthly and quote the 1929 bylaws below.
Section III. DIRECTORS. The directors of the corporation shall be seven in number, shall serve for one year or until their successors are duly elected and qualified and shall be elected by the members of said Bellevue Baptist Church at the last monthly business meeting prior to the end of each calendar year, beginning with the year 1929. ...
If you are in need of some purpose driven humor then CLICK HERE
gbc_member,
You may not be aware of who we are talking about so I hate to leave you out of the loop, but if you scroll on down that link to the posting after 8/30/2005 8:18 . It looks to me like Caiaphas has been going to Saddleback since '95 and was on staff there for a couple of years. Either that or we have a Caiaphas impersonator in Calli.
mostlylurkin,
You could put them all under the heading of the church growth movement.
Custos said...
Regarding the first post on this thread:
I will never understand this tack on the controversy: Let God handle it (presumably we do nothing...
5:55 PM, November 24, 2006
---
Custos,
Thanks for laying it out there so well. I'm with you and share your amazement at the mindset that we are to be silent, passive, and apparently can't even follow Paul's or even Jesus' lead or instructions on how to deal with sin. Amazing...and sad.
This pursued weakness is at the heart of our silent men. I believe many want to be the man they imagine themselves to be, but they have been taught and told to be gentlemen, nice, polite, mature and if they do roar a little bit they feel like they have to apologize. What ever happened to “be angry and sin not” – be angry and stand for the right thing - there's no need to apologize for that.
Come on folks. Any idea why Jesus didn't pick John instead of Peter. Don't get me wrong - I love John and relate to him. But come on, there are certain qualities you need in a leader who is going to face serious opposition and to whom others will look for strength and reassurance. Look at Steve Gaines, he is our Peter. And I bet he's pretty miserable right now being the gentler and kinder Steve. Truth be told, he's ready to get back to being the Steve who doesn't feel shy to raise his voice in the pulpit. No doubt he's learning balance, like we all need, but that doesn't mean he needs to stop being strong either. He just needs to use that strength that God has given him to protect the sheep and lead them well.
So, men...if God has gifted you and put a lion in you, let's hear it - be a man. Those of you who tend to be more quiet, calculating and behind the scenes - that's fine - be that man. But whoever you are, stand up and be counted; make sure you do your part. Remember, we all bring balance to the body when we're obedient, led by Him and we're being who he made us to be.
Finally, don't fear conflict.
Was David wrong for taking the initiative to stand against Goliath? Was Nathan wrong to obey God and stand up to David?
Conflict is nothing to fear...rather, we need to fear God if we practice disobedience.
Andrew
Thanks Andrew.
Something interesting from SS this morning...that's right I called it SS, so sue me. Anyhow, my teacher was out today, so instead of sending someone else to teach the class they directed everyone to a "testimony workshop". Sorry, but I find that strange. I politely went someplace else..but I got an opportunity to talk to another member of my class who skipped the workshop as well...we discussed the PD movement and all that it means..and what's going on at BBC...there are a lot more folks at BBC who are concerned about it's direction, but don't come here to take part in this forum. Take time to talk to those who may have concerns...or who sense something isn't right but don't know exactly what it is. Just some thoughts.
When did Bellevue stop having business meetings? And for what reason?
I think we stopped having business meetings when the leadership realized that some of us had questions that we wanted to ask.
From what I "heard" at the CC meeting we had one in March and another I think in May or June.
One thing no one has mentioned on this PD thread is that Rick Warren is tied in with New Age type people. A guy named "Countryboy" posted on Mark Sharpe's blog and he mentioned the link of RW to New Agers. I didn't take his word for it - I did some investigating on my own. He is very tied to Schuller in a long article I read titled "Birds of a Feather." I can't remember now where I read this but there is a lot of info on www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com - search for Rick Warren. There are also some very interesting articles on David Jeremiah. Since reading about David Jeremiah, I have stopped listening to him. Apparently his church has gone PD and he has ties to the New Age movement as well. All of this info was hard to believe and hard to take but I have to agree with Tim every time he says that the Bible is all we need. I have personally decided not to buy any of these books that are touted to us as must reads anymore! I will read the Bible and only the Bible from now on. I will not fund Lifeway anymore either. They are discussed at length on www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com as well. All this reading will probably nauseate you. It did me!
Tim, I hope you are getting over your bug.
Diana Hart
diana hart,
I agree the Bible is what we need to read...we also need to bring any book, philosophy, etc under the light of scripture to test it's validity. Books are fine, but we have to be careful what we read, and always remember that it's the thoughts of another imperfect person. My mentor always taught me to read a book like you eat fish....eat the meat..and chuck the bones. I always felt that was good advice. I found some articles on monergism.com that give a very fair and balanced critique of PD. If you're interested, just go to monergism.com...there's a menu list on the left..go to "bad theology"..then scroll down to where it gives a link to John McArthur...there's a list of about 5 or 6 articles...they're very balanced. Blessings.
allofgrace,
Thank you for that link. I will add that to the front page list. This is a direct link to the page with all the references. There's enough material here to keep you busy reading for the next week. Please make the time to read as much of this as possible! I'm convinced some of the methods espoused by Rick Warren (elder rule and transitioning, for example) are at the root of the problems we're facing at Bellevue today. Many of these changes were beginning before Steve Gaines came to Bellevue. In other words, "Steve Gaines" isn't the problem. A symptom of it perhaps, but not the problem.
{NASS mounts soapbox}
You don't think Bellevue's already elder ruled? Back when GBC was going through their struggle with a pastor who was operating in secret and wanted to implement the elder rule system, long before savingbellevue.com (which was the first I'd heard of any specific issues), I remember thinking to myself, "Well, what's so unusual about that? Bellevue is already being run that way. They just don't call it that."
We've been told that Bellevue is "pastor led, deacon served, committee operated, and congregationally approved." Ask yourself this: When was the last time that we, as a congregation, approved anything?
I'm not among the group who is calling for Steve Gaines' resignation. (I may be "among" them, but let's say I'm not in agreement with them on this point right now.) I don't "hate" Steve Gaines as "we" have been accused of. I pray daily for him, his family, our congregation, and the people involved in all this. I'm still hopeful for reconciliation. But I don't think if Steve Gaines resigned today that things would change. The problem, as I see it, runs much deeper than one man.
We need to look at the big picture, folks. I fear we're going to miss the forest for the trees and the little bitty fence that surrounds the forest. People, it ain't about four men climbing over a fence, $400 dinners at Ruths Chris, $25,000 donations, questionable credit card use, the change in style of music in worship services, or any of the other things that have happened. Those are merely symptoms of an underlying problem.
Please prayerfully study and consider the material you've been presented. The members of GBC have been there, and they're warning us! Churches of all denominations have been there or are there, and they're warning us! We need to be educated, informed sheep! In this day and age with the information anyone with a computer has at his fingertips, there's no excuse not to be.
{NASS dismounts soapbox}
NASS
Can someone enlighten me about this?
IT IS IMPORTANT
choice_is_yours said...
Mid-America is a good school. Dr. Spradlin is a good man....Mid-America is pro-Warrenism, by the way.
Churchmouse...
That statement is not true. Mid-America has no official position on "Warrenism." And, upon a little investigation, I've found that the general climate there is opposed to it.
Choice...
The fact that one journal has an article in it by Warren does not mean that the institution is pro "Warrenism." Perhaps you should call and ask Dr. Spradlin's view on this before you label the Seminary this way.
Choice,
Thankyou for responding to my post. We are going to have to disagree about Warrenism. Concerning Rick Warren, the man; any MAN who purports teachings to bring about Global Peace causes me great concern.
What you said about MABTS is important. Many of us contribute to the seminary, but would not want to finance an institute that trains pastors to do what is being done to Bellevue, as we speak. You can say Rick Warren is not our problem if you like. Steps given in his Pastor's Toolbox for taking over a church are easily traced throughout Bellevue.
Choice...
Amen!
allofgrace,
I completely agree with you. I have been on monergism.com before but didn't have time to stay on there long. I will go back there when time permits. Thanks a lot! I agree we need to be VERY careful what we are reading. I have spent a lot of time reading the Bible since 9/11/05 and I can tell you it has been very worthwhile. I am also very impressed with John MacArthur's stand against Warrenism. Very few big names are standing firm. Also, everyone please speak to Dr. Spradlin about Warrenism before you start withholding money from Mid-America. He may not be speaking out by name against RW but my friend is attending GBC and she says he is very definitely "on the warpath" against something - probably PD and other types of heresy. We began withholding our tithes from Bellevue a long time ago and sent ours to Mid-America. Definitely a worthwhile cause. And before you start going off on me for "sinning" against Bellevue that was one of the reasons we left so early on. I didn't feel right about attending a church I couldn't tithe to so we aren't members anymore. Now we tithe to our new church and give over and above to Mid-Am and others.
Love in Christ to all,
Diana Hart
Some of us have been accused of Rick Warren bashing...let me be clear...I've stated this once, but I'll say it again. I have no axe to grind with RW the man. I have huge problems with his philosophy of what the church's mission is...his methods for accomplishing said mission...and the scriptural acrobatics he employs to justify his theory of church and personal growth. I still think and I will continue to think that this is a dangerous program to churches and to the gospel itself. It promotes weak theology and an easy-believism gospel. It is program driven not Bible driven. What sealed it for me for good was when he showed up on the Oprah Winfrey show. Anyone who knows anything about her brand of "spirituality" would know that she would not invite or sit comfortably with any real Bible believing Southern Baptist pastor for 5 minutes. Could you see Oprah inviting the likes of RG Lee or Adrian Rogers to her show? I don't know about you, but that tells me a lot. I've been asked to show proof that this church growth philosophy is present at Bellevue, and I intend to on a later post. But till then just let me say that any thinking person would be hard pressed to not see the flaws in this philosophy.
How did
The Purpose Driven Life
come to Bellevue?
This is just an opinion and that is all that it is. I am not trying to detail a progression of things that were wrong in this post either, so please don't read thru with the idea that I am critical of any of the things that I am going to mention.
The book came to Bellevue as many things did. What things you may ask? And I am so glad that you did.
Having been at Bellevue for over 20 years, I have seen many wonderful things, beautiful things. I have seen many new things introduced to our church family. They were new to Bellevue anyway. Let me reflect on just a few.
Perhaps, some of you will remember "Living Pictures". Dr. Whitmire had seen a performance similar to this at a church in California if my memory serves me correctly. It was something that touched his heart and he wanted to do something like it and he did. It was glorious and beautiful. "Living Pictures" evolved into what is now "The Memphis Passion Play." Bellevue was able to present Christ in a setting that would be more appealing to the lost. It appealed to the lost and spoke to the saved.
Perhaps some remember the first year of "The Singing Christmas Tree". The set was extremely small and the large faux windows at the rear of the choir loft were incorporated to be part of the set. It began as fairly small event and progressed into what it is today. This is another example of something that appealed to the lost and spoke to the saved and gave us an avenue to reach the unsaved. I am not sure if this were something that Dr. Whitmire had seen else where or if it was an original idea.
I remember when the banner ministry was first introduced. This was something else that I believe Dr. Whitmire had seen at another church and was moved by it. I must confess that for some reason every time I have seen these banners used in our services that it moves me to tears. I can still hear the choir singing, "Lift high the Lord our Banner, Lift high the Lord, Jesus King". I believe that perhaps this ministry speaks more to the believer than the lost, but it still is quite moving.
Perhaps some will remember a period of time back some years ago that Dr. Whitmire taught us a series of new songs. They really weren't new at all they were scriptures that had been put to music and there is just something about singing scripture that is incredibly uplifting. God inhabited the praise of his people. I am not sure where it was that Dr. Whitmire found all of those beautiful songs of scripture, but it was glorious.
Of course many people remember the close of the services on the nights of the Lord's Supper, when Dr. Rogers would rise to the pulpit as the man of God, to close the book of God. It was reassuring to know that the God of Israel neither sleeps or slumbers. I do not know if this were original or if it were something that they had seen some where else or not.
Now, I have covered just a few things that were introduced to Bellevue. I believe that our leadership saw many things, some that were good, some that were not so good. They did pay close attention however and when they saw something that had merit they would bring it to Bellevue. So how did "The Purpose Drive Life" arrive at Bellevue. Well, in just the same manner that other things did. Some wonderful and beautiful things. This just happens to not be one of them.
I spoke with Dr. Spradlin on the telephone today to get his thoughts on Rick Warren and the PD movement. The article by Warren was in the seminary's Journal of Evangelism and Missions (JEM) because it is an academic publication showing diversity of opinion on different topics. I have heard him speak about the PD movement and would say with confidence that he is not a follower of Warren, Hybels, or any other PD methods. In his words, "Mid-America is about training those called by the Lord in Bible, evangelism, and missions."
Comparisons to GBC are not accurate and should probably stop. The "powers that be" at GBC would like to think so, but only to justify their ousting of a Godly man and teacher from their pulpit. I am a GBC member and wish that other GBC members would stop reaching out to other churches in an attempt to garner sympathy (and maybe restore our church rolls and depleted coffers...?).
Good Morning. I have been praying for Bellevue since I heard about your situation. I have been monitoring this blog in silence, praying GBC members would prayerfully support BBC, but silently allow BBC to work out these very delicate issues among their membership. I am still praying for this going forward.
I am going to ask ALL GBC members to stay out of this discussion, BUT to prayerfully support our brothers and sisters at BBC. Pray for God and His Son Jesus to step in and fill the halls of BBC with grace, love and wisdom. GBC has not recovered fully from removing the log from our eye, so we are in no position to help BBC remove the speck from its eye. We are healing, with the help of some incredible former Bellevue staff members, but we are not healed. Please continue to pray for us as we struggle everyday against the powers of the evil one.
Thanks for listening to the rants of a friend...I am praying for you.
In His service,
Brent McBride
GBC members,
Thank you for your comments, but I disagree that we don't need your input. We are indeed going through something very similar to what you were going through this time last year, and I, for one, appreciate your input as long as it's either your words of support, constructive criticism, or most importantly, your prayers. Sam Shaw and Steve Gaines have been spotted keeping company. So what's wrong with GBC members getting together with BBC members? There's no better teacher than experience, and y'all have "been there and done that." No one is compelled to come here and comment, but anyone who wants to is welcome to do so as long as he's contributing something useful to the discussion.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
Choice is yours-
I have some understanding of why MABTS let SaveGBC use their chapel. The seminary allows non-profit organziations like the Gideons, FCA, the Tennessee Baptist Convention, etc. to use their facilities at no cost. They have also let Methodist Hospital and the Germantown Charity Horse Show to use their parking lot.
SaveGBC is not the only GBC group that was allowed to use the Germantown campus. Sam Shaw and his group asked to "prayer walk" the chapel the afternoon before the SaveGBC meeting that evening and were given permission to do so.
I still don't understand why Mid-America helped SaveGBC.
That's just a mystery to me.
I do not know either. Perhaps the answer is as simple as because they asked.
Why is it that Mid-America intervened at GBC, but is not intervening at BBC?
I do not know the whole story, but my impression from my fiends at GBC is that the seminary allowed saveGBC to borrow the facility, not that the seminary was an active participant, power player or driving force behind saveGBC. They simply loaned out their facilities. One can assume the seminary was sympathetic since they allowed saveGBC to borrow the facility, but that does not equate to "intervention" in my book. I also understand from my GBC friends that saveGBC asked for facilities to use on the GBC campus and was turned down by Sam Shaw and the GBC leadership. Perhaps a GBC member will speak to this if their view differs from the view of my friends that still attend GBC.
There are some similarities between the GBC and BBC situation, but in my view they are more different than they are similar. BBC does not have a central issue (like the GBC bylaws) that is coming to a vote on a date certain. This makes the BBC situation possibly worse since one cannot foresee any end in sight. Multiple issues of varying significance are apparently going to be allowed to fester for some unknown time since there is no congregational opportunity to put these issues to rest by a vote or policy changes. There is no hint of a business meeting on the horizon despite what the BBC bylaws may require. Apparently those in charge have decided they are above the bylaws.
I agree with the earlier GBC poster that said BBC is under de-facto elder rule. I think that describes our current polity correctly despite what the BBC bylaws may say to the contrary. It is as if BBC changed its form of governance without ever holding a vote to do so.
To Choice, I accept your appology. If you indeed believed that the seminary was pro Warren, that is something we all need to know, since many are sending tithes there.
Choice said,
"Why is it that Mid-America intervened at GBC, but is not intervening at BBC?
I do not accept the idea that MABTS was residing in property formerly owned by GBC. Afterall, they currently reside in land formerly owned by BBC."
Psalm 43:3 said...
"Choice is yours-I have some understanding of why MABTS let SaveGBC use their chapel. The seminary allows non-profit organziations like the Gideons, FCA, the Tennessee Baptist Convention, etc. to use their facilities at no cost. They have also let Methodist Hospital and the Germantown Charity Horse Show to use their parking lot."
churchmouse asks, "Did we not ask to use the old seminary building for our July meeting and were denied? Isn't that why we rented the former Bartlett Baptist Church building from the city of Bartlett?" BBC supports the seminary, and many unhappy members are sending tithes there. So the seminary is being supported by both parties in this conflict. Maybe, that is the answer.
I think open forums are good. Sam probably erred by not letting an open forum, or even small groups occur.
Called my friend to make sure I got this right. This is what he said. There were at least two open Q&A forums at GBC sponsored by the GBC leadership. These were open mike forums where people could ask GBC leadership questions about the proposed bylaws. These meetings lasted several hours. Many people against the bylaws thought questions were not fully answered, or were answered by "trust us". Of course that is their opinion, and I expect the old GBC staff and people that were for the new bylaws probabaly feel that all questions were answered fully.
What was not allowed was for the "saveGBC" group to hold any meetings on the GBC campus.
I hope that clarifies things.
justin wrote:
"Well I don't believe in hell... so that changes things."
Boy, things sure got quiet in here!
NASS
headoutofthesand,
I went to it as well. I think he's involved in the emergent church...their theology is very difficult to pin down.
Choice,
I think Dr. Spradlin is a very forgiving guy and I can assume he has forgiven you for the comment that you made. I think you have been forgiven all around because you sound very repentant. I think you can move on now.
Obviously I cannot speak for why Dr. Spradlin would not let us use Mid-America for our July meeting but I THINK it is because he is a member of Bellevue. He was not a member of GBC when all this was going on and as was stated he let both parties use it - the SaveGBC group to meet and Sam to prayerwalk. That sounds very fair to me. Maybe Steve didn't want to prayer walk so he didn't think it was right to just use it for one side of the argument. I think Spradlin has a lot on his plate right now and we should give him a break. As I have already stated, don't withhold money from MABTS without speaking to Dr. Spradlin first. The students and staff are constantly witnessing and leading many people to Christ. MABTS is a VERY worthwhile place to send available funds.
We've gotten waaaaaaay off topic here! Just out of curiosity, how'd you find "us," Justin, and what made you interested enough to leave comments?
NBBCOF
Thanks, Justin. The only reason I even found ConcernedMembers.com in the first place was that they were the host site for the Gardendale Baptist Corpus Christi forum. After poking around their site, I, too, disagreed with some of what I read there, and a lot of it didn't apply to us as Baptists. However, they also hosted forums for other Baptist churches, and some of them appear to have gone through or are now going through some of the same things we are. CM.com was merely the messenger.
Christian leaders to Warren: Keep Obama from pulpit
Argue Democrat senator's support for abortion incompatible with Bible
Posted: November 28, 2006
12:10 p.m. Eastern
Christian leaders from across a wide spectrum of theologies and missions are rising up together to urge Saddleback Church pastor Rick Warren to rescind an invitation to Sen. Barack Obama to speak from Warren's pulpit.
see: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53134
Justin,
I guess that depends on how you define "Christlike".
25+years,
Rick Warren joins the political arena...
Justin... It seems that you take what you want from the Bible and ignore the rest. God is holy. Holiness demands justice. Read 2 Thess. 1 regarding Christ "in flaming fire taking vengeance..." Jesus Himself spoke of Hell in the Gospels. Revelation gives a graphic description of the judgment and the Lake of Fire. Long before the Persian period the Psalmist spoke of Hell as did Moses at the rebellion of Korah. You have been deceived. Either you believe the words of Jesus or you carve another Jesus with your own thought. If the latter, then you make an idol as surely as if it were wood or stone...
Seems like Senator Obama would be a better fit for the pulpit at First United Methodist Church downtown than out at Saddleback.
Why is Obama's evil in Rick Warren's pulpit?
Barack Obama has a long history of defying the intended morality of Scripture. As a state legislator, he actively worked to preserve availability of abortion in all nine months of pregnancy. He opposed parental notification. He opposed any and all bans on partial-birth abortion (an act that includes delivery of the baby up to the head, the crushing of the baby's brain, the suctioning of the brain matter, and then completed delivery of the child's deflated cranium). In his run for the U.S. Senate, Obama even asked his wife to pen a letter to Illinois voters that reassured them of his commitment to fighting for the right to butcher children in the womb.
Barack Obama has long supported the advance of the radical homosexual activist lobby in its pursuit to destroy traditional marriage. He supported the creation of "special rights" for people who engage in homosexuality for the sole purpose of putting them at the front of the line on issues of employment, housing and litigation. He has also solidly backed the advancement of all "hate crimes" legislation, which ultimately may be used to silence clergy who believe according to their own convictions that homosexual behavior is wrong and preach so from biblical texts. Obama has a perfect voting record against the defense of marriage.
Barack Obama advocates continued funding for Planned Parenthood clinics in our nation's inner cities, which are performing genocide against the populations of African Americans living there.
And most damnable of all, when a brave nurse named Jill Stanek brought about national awareness to a practice at a local hospital in suburban Chicago that allowed the starvation and neglect of newly born children who had survived abortion procedures – Obama opposed her. He opposed the right of those children to be given the chance to live and he advocated against a ban on such procedures – then known as "born alive abortions."
Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, And all the nations that forget God.
Matthew 5:29 "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 23:33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Mark 9:43 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched --"where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Justin... finite sin is not the point... a person's nature does not change at death... They either are a new creature at death or they have a sin nature that continues eternally in rebellion against God. They do not get better. They get worse. That's what John 3 is all about.
Revelation 21:8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The bad news about our sinful condition and the reality of hell is what makes the Good News (The Gospel) so good! Salvation affects us from the new birth, throughout life, and into the next. That is why the scripture says, (John 3:36) "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
I promised a few days ago that I would post and state why I think a PD/seeker-sensitive/church growth type movement is underway at Bellevue. I’ll just begin by telling when I first started seeing signs of it…and it was before Dr. Rogers retired and Steve Gaines ever got here, although I think it’s definitely shifted to high gear since he took the pastorate at Bellevue.
I listed in an earlier post, the various movements that have taken place in evangelicalism over the last 10 or so years, beginning with John Maxwell’s writings and going through Experiencing God, George Barna’s comments on marketing the church, Promise Keepers, WWJD, PDC, PDL, Prayer of Jabez, etc, etc. All these I believe helped to set the stage for what is going on at Bellevue and has been happening in many SBC churches as well as other evangelical churches. Quite frankly, at my former church we went through some of John Maxwell’s stuff, and at the time, I was buying into the idea of neighborhood surveys, as a means of getting lost people into the church. At the time I couldn’t really see what was wrong with that mindset, but all these other books had yet to be published, and I didn’t have the foresight to see where it would lead.
Before I left my former church, they had adopted a worship band and introduced a lot of new praise choruses…some weren’t too bad…some were so repetitive and shallow I couldn’t stand it…not to mention repeating the choruses so many times it kept you standing till your feet got numb (is God really impressed with vain repetition?). Anyhow, after 9 years there and 3 major upheavals similar to what Bellevue is now experiencing, I felt the Lord leading me elsewhere. I began visiting Bellevue because of its stable history. 3 pastors in 75 years is very impressive for a Southern Baptist church, especially in this day and age. I enjoyed the worship very much…it’s true Dr. Whitmire started introducing some different music into the worship service, and a praise team, but I had no problems with it…I always felt he used all the gifts God had given him to help draw us into a spirit of true worship. I’m not really the hand clapping, hand waving type, but I have no problem with it as long as it’s not done for show, or to appear super spiritual, or it’s not crammed down my throat. Of course Dr. Rogers was someone I had always admired as a man who would stick to his guns no matter what. I felt I had found where the Lord wanted me to be, so after visiting for a few months, I moved my membership.
I know this is probably uninteresting, and everyone may be wondering when I’m going to make my point, but I felt it’s important to just share from the standpoint of what I’ve seen leading up to this point. I’ll continue in my next post to keep from taking up so much room. I hope you’ll forgive my long-windedness.
I have to say once again, that I was totally taken by surprise when Dr. Rogers took us through the PDL, seeing that he was always a man of THE book. That’s not a criticism…just honest thoughts. During that time it seemed that’s all anyone talked about…everyone carried their books to church… sometimes sans Bibles…always quoting from it…as though it were scripture itself. I kept hearing things like “life-changing” (anytime I hear that about a book I get suspicious)…I can’t remember the last time I heard someone say that about something they read in the Bible. SS classes were going through it…small groups in homes…all at the same time….it seemed like a mass indoctrination….I remember thinking it almost comical. I objected to it mostly because I was tired of every study we did, being around some book someone wrote…which had been going on before PDL and after as well. I notice some classes are still doing “Bible” study around a book of some kind (is the Bible not enough anymore?) I have already shared in earlier posts about the young pastor from the church plant in Florida, which Bellevue supports…and how he shared about not using the words “repentance” or “Jesus” when witnessing to their “target” group. Frankly, that was downright scary to me…and especially since Bellevue supports it.
Soon after Dr. Gaines came to Bellevue, I noticed a lot of billboards around town. I know that Bellevue has had them before, but what caught my attention was the content: “Feel like giving up?”…give it to Jesus”, “Tired of trying but losing?”…..”Tried religion? …get a relationship with Jesus.” I’m honestly not one to go around looking for something wrong, but these little slogans sounded….well…a little too “felt needs” oriented to me…I mean is Jesus just one more option among other options? Maybe I’m wrong and I’m open to correction…but did Jesus die to make us feel better about ourselves?...our lives?...meet our “felt” needs? Are our felt needs our basic problem? I think that sends the wrong message about who Jesus is and what he came for… a lost person will no doubt connect with the sentiment of the billboards…a lost person’s life is completely self-centered…but what Jesus are we leading them to?...someone who’s going to make their lives all better? The Christian life involves a cross…dying to self and all our “felt” needs…counting the cost. I can tell you my everyday life got a lot tougher after coming to Christ…because the gospel has these demands…that’s the gospel that Jesus preached… it’s the gospel we should preach…whether on a billboard or from the pulpit.
Ok, another breather.
Besides the billboards, there's i2 memphis..we were told there wouldn't be a dividing into contemporary and traditional services...but in reality that's what i2 memphis is..at least the age group it targets is the target group for contemporary services is it not? It's just held on thursday nights instead of Sunday morning. I just don't see a Biblical warrant for dividing a church's worship into young and old...how can there be unity like that?...a deacon claimed the church was dying under Dr. Rogers..and that the young folks were leaving and none of them joining...so does that mean the problem is with the church..or with the young folks? The world outside has been trying to separate the young from the old for some time...why do we buy into the same philosophy?...it reminds me of the 60's.."don't trust anyone over 30". I would think by the time someone is 18-29 yrs old they could worship with the rest of the grownups. Now the singles department has a coffee shop...widescreen tv's everywhere..what is all this stuff about? Is it just gimmicks to attract people to the church? What's next.."themed" worship services? With all the information that's out there..and with all that's appeared in this church..it's very hard for me to not believe that Bellevue is going PD/seeker-sensitive. Call me an alarmist if you want...or you can just write me off as a grumbler or a nutcase..but I ask you to think on these things beloved. I've said all I'm going to say on this subject.
Allograce,
Excellent points.
About i2, it was patterned after the Willow Creek Axis service.
Excerpts from a recent Christianity Today article:
"Ten years after launching Axis as a Generation X "church-within-a-church," Willow Creek Community Church has folded the young-adult service into its main congregation.
Considered groundbreaking at its inception, Axis had suffered a steep decline in attendance, falling from nearly 2,000 worshipers in 2001 to about 350 more recently. The ministry's longtime teaching pastor, Jarrett Stevens, also left in June.
Integration will better fulfill Willow's multigenerational vision, said interim pastor Steve Gillen. He said Axis didn't connect young adults with the rest of the congregation.
Willow's decision will reverberate, said James Wilhoit, Wheaton College professor of Christian formation and ministry.
In addition, churches-within-churches share a shortcoming endemic to the entire seeker-church movement, Wilhoit said. By marketing to niche groups, such churches "institutionalize fragmentation." Young people are actually yearning for a holistic community, he said, "rather than something that looks like a club"—one of the things Willow discovered.
WTB,
You'd think by now we'd have learned..but I guess it's easier to entertain than to teach.
Allofgrace,
Whenever we supplant God's wisdom with out own, we inevitably add to or take away from the gospel.
Instead of innovating we need men who earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints (Jude 3).
"Instead of innovating we need men who earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints (Jude 3)."
Amen and amen.
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