In the front of the Communications Committee booklet sent out by the church this week is an open letter entitled "A Message to the Congregation" which is signed by Harry Smith, Chairman, and committee members, Jim Angel, Jeff Arnold, Jim Barnwell, Al Childress, David Coombs, John Crockett, Derek Duncan, Scott Foster, Bryan Miller, David Perdue, Mark Spiller, Steve Tucker, Wayne Vander Steeg, and Chuck Taylor, ex-officio. If you have not received a copy or are not a Bellevue member and would like to view the booklet (mostly) in its entirety, you may do so here. See the "Introduction" section to view the letter.
In the letter is this request from the committee:
"We would also kindly ask our membership to refrain from writing e-mails and responses on websites or blogs. This only serves to spread misinformation."
Your thoughts about this, please.
And if you happen to know someone whom you think might benefit from reading some of the "misinformation" to which Mr. Smith and the committee members referred, please refer them to this website, the URL for which is:
http://newbbcopenforum.blogspot.com
It seems only fair that people be given the opportunity to hear all "sides" of the issues so they can then have a truly informed opinion.
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405 comments:
1 – 200 of 405 Newer› Newest»While I would agree that we should be careful as to what is posted here and elsewhere, the simple truth is, this blog or any other similar blog or website wouldn't exist if this mess had been handled properly in the first place. I'm not excusing anything that has been posted that is wrong...2 wrongs never equal a right...but again...if this had been handled correctly in the first place, we wouldn't be seeing this on the internet.
....we wouldn't have a Communications Committee, deacons who were being serious about deaconing, or any attempts at all by the lay and staff leadership to at least appear to be addressing concerns and issues. While it’s unfortunate that the world had to be able to see this, it appears this was/is the only way to get their attention. I could say a lot more about accountability, and how it’s been common throughout history for leadership to attempt to control the media., and the internet has made information dissemination an entirely new ballgame..but the point is made.
I am sad to say after reading some of the material in "A Message to the Congregation" that it is once again filled with half truths and untruths. I guess we'll have to spend the next several weeks now discussing how we have been deceived again in any statement that has been falsely sent out.
Case in point:
"Did Mark Dougharty receive a one-year salary bonus?
No. Two years ago a deferred compensation benefit was given to Mark Dougharty, Associate Pastor, provided that he completed 10 years of service. A deferred compensation benefit simply means he cannot receive it until he retires. He will receive an additional benefit if he completes 25 years of service.
This benefit was consistent with other benefits awarded to former pastor Dr. Adrian Rogers, former Associate Pastor, Bob Sorrell, and Minister of Music Emeritus, Dr. Jim Whitmire."
----------------------------------
Fact is: The two year statement itself is playing with people. Steve Gaines has been here for over 1 year. 2 years is supposed to sound like it was before Dr. Rogers left. I've been told that this transaction happened after Dr. Rogers retires but before we had a new pastor. It's my understanding that while we were without a pastor, Mark Dougharty was given this by the "transition team" which had nothing to do with his 10 year service. Deferred comp that he will get when he retires, partly true. If he was to be fired or leave on his own, it was my understanding that he still walks with a whole year of salary plus all of the other money Bellevue has put into his deferred comp package. It's also my understanding that the church was not notified, and also that all of the members of the finance committee were not aware of this transaction. Perhaps they are now.
I also understand that Dr. Rogers got 6 months severance when he retired. This comes from within the finance office. Dr. Whitmire I understand got the same 6 months severance but it was bumped up to 12 months well after he was forced out but after it was found out that Mark Dougharty was given 12 months. The communications committee needs to address this issue.
Oh, this is silliness. Alexander Hamilton said. "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
Well, I'd modify that to read, "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they have read 1984."
Censorship is unacceptable. The ability to think, reason, discuss with our fellow believers is essential.
Thinking of this, I'm reminded of the classic Two Minutes Hate scenes from 1984: The powers that be would gather everyone around, jeer at those who opposed Oceana, and take comfort in their mutual ignorance and complete abdication of reason and will to Big Brother.
Of course, these people could never exactly say why the people they jeered at where wrong or bad or worth condemning. They hadn't read anything written by the objects of their derision. They hadn't spoken with them. They simply couldn’t' stand them because Big Brother said they were bad--those gathered there had abandoned their God given gift of free-thought.
Well, that's more or less what we're getting here. The closing of the bellevue mind. Statements coming down from deacons, staff, SS teachers; all of which say don't talk with these people, these people are in sin, they're not worth your time, they're just filled with anger and hatred, their speech is sinful and you will be too if you listen.
This is good advice if it's predicated on truth. It's pretty rotten advice if it's designed to obscure the truth as censorship so often is.
Folks, openness is where it's at. The truth does vindicate the righteous, and hidden sin will be uncovered. Which side of the last sentence bodes well for the administration? Well, from their recent publication, I'd say neither.
PS I'm not implying that Dr Gaines is Big Brother or that he is engaged in a systematic attempt to rule the people of belleuve through torture or by waging war on other churches. On the contrary, he seems to like helping other churches (the already fully insured kind). Also, I'm not implying that Dr Gaines or anyone else is encouraging people to hate other people. The Two Minutes Hate is just a very salient example. Just wanted to be clear there . . .
Three new members were added way after the initial "team" was assembled. It seems that decisions are made quickly with the administration and then afterwards more decisions are made to cover the prior ones.
Al Childrress, Jim Angel, and Derek Duncan certainly bring credibility to the "team" but they were not around for the early playbook. I say let the congregation offer up a new list of names that will be balanced. Only then will this look right. It looks like a coverup to most. How can you take answers from a group that has not been willing to let the people involved be cross examined?
Ding ding ding ding!!!
"Censorship"
We have a winner! "Custos" said the secret word. Unfortunately, he doesn't win $100, but in recognition of his efforts I submit this. Congratulations!
Thanks NASS. Want to make a bet as to how long it will take for my literary allusion and bland argument to be called "hate"?
I'm thinking not too long since it seems that anything other than the most anemic disagreement gets painted as hatespeech. Dude, it's like we're arguing with people on the political Left here!
We were taught to search for the truth. We were taught to check the facts. We were taught to blindly follow no man.
I was surprised that the three monkeys "See No Evil, Speak No Evil, Do No Evil" were not pictured somewhere within the pages of this mis-communication.
Silence is not an option.
SWAW and cJesus, thanks for the sweet words of encouragement. But let me thank you wonderful people for standing! I'm insulated far away at school right now. You've got this ugly thing staring at you daily! It takes much more courage to do what you guys are doing than what I've done.
My love to you.
Given the lack of bylaws and refusal to hold regular business meetings this web site should continue. How else would we know that Dr. Gaines gave $25,000 to a church that teaches heresy and is using tithes for personal use such as airplane tickets cheerleader tryouts.
If BBC will start having monthly business meetings, open forum Q&A sessions for all committee chairmen and allow the congregation to amend the BBC bylaws in a way that will protect BBC from a hostile takeover such as the Germantown Baptist bylaws protected them then we can talk about shutting down the websites.
The BBC bylaws are ½ page long while the Germantown Baptist bylaws are 34 pages long. GBC has a business meeting every single month and they post a transcript of the entire meeting on their website for all members to view. Each of their committee chairmen takes the floor to answer any and all questions during the meeting.
Call your friends from work that attend GBC if you do not believe me. That is how I found out.
Come into the light BBC administration.
The only reason our members knew to ask questions, or what to ask, was because of the existence of Saving Bellevue and the blogs.
Since the leadership refused to provide an open forum inside the church, certain members provided one outside the church.
When the pastor stood in the pulpit of a sister church and openly joked about preventing Bellevue members from speaking, he should have expected members to redouble their efforts to be heard. God is not mocked and we don't like it much either.
If the pastor were more circumspect with his words, the members would be more likely to respond in kind.
Below is the last paragraph of an email I sent all of our deacons more than a month ago:
"Of course this is just one concerned man’s opinion, but unless decisive and public action is taken, this will fester and eventually rip Bellevue apart at her seams. The church deserves answers and they deserve them soon so we can go on about the Lord’s work. We should not proceed with even one more service with these issues boiling under the surface. There is a palpable tension that is disturbing our worship. That tension will never go away until all grievances have been aired and all issues discussed. Both sides deserve a full and fair hearing in front of the church body in accordance with Matthew 18. I believe it should be done this Sunday morning, not after an evening service. We can’t worry about chasing away or offending visitors. We must take care of this matter or there won’t be a Bellevue any of us recognize for them to visit. I call on you to be courageous. Tough decisions must be made in order to reconcile the body."
Well, instead of taking public action, this matter was turned over to a committee and the crisis festered, even escalated. I believe our church is indeed ripping apart.
Someone once wrote that "America is coasting downhill on a godly ancestry, and God pity America when we reach the bottom of the hill."
God pity Bellevue when we reach the bottom of the hill.
Only when Dr. Gaines and Mark D. "come clean" will restoration begin.
If he doesn't, it never will.
custos wrote:
"Want to make a bet as to how long it will take for my literary allusion and bland argument to be called 'hate'?"
I'd say about the time "stevesservantthedeacon" checks in. He was up pretty late last night, so he may be sleeping in this morning. Shhhhhh...
NASS
Group,
I would like to offer a brief synopsis of what has happened on this blog since the beginning.
A couple of acronyms will help to shorten the process. As well I will speak in generalities to keep from boring to tears those that have already seen it.
US …(U)nited (S)ervants
THEM…(T)rusting (H)is ..Gaines
not God (E)very (M)ove
US: Statement of Truth
Them: Lies, Slander, Gossip
US: Proof of Truth
Them: That never happened
US: Irrefutable Proof of Truth
Them: Ok, that happened, but
we knew that and so what.
US: Revealing Truth of Biblical
Principles To Refute So What
Them: Umm. There is a logical
and reasonable explanation.
Let the committee work.
Them: Ok the logical and
reasonable explanation is…
US: Error in The Logical
Reasonable Explanation
Them: ok..just a minute there is
is a logical and reasonable
explanation that the logical and
reasonable explanation is
flawed. Let the committee work.
Them: Lies, Slander, Gossip
ME: Baaaaaa loooonnneyy!
The truth, the whole truth is not an ever moving target.
For those that may have some confusion over what the battle at Bellevue is really about. I would like to offer this.
Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
I should not have to remind anyone, but will that the above passage has heavenly meaning, earthly meaning, personal meaning, spiritual meaning and congregational meaning. I wanted to dispel the arguments before they were begun.
Additional comment the division of the camp (us & them) is not something that I have created. We are indeed divided and if we can not be united in the truth, then we must be divided by the truth.
except for grace, there go I...
Love, speak the truth in Love :)
We are divided, but there's no need to label the camps. Only speak the truth.
Question- Are the deacons still planning to send a message to the congregation by standing in support of the pastor tomorrow?
Chearis,
Let me preface this by saying that I am not questioning you or your convictions, but rather I am explaing to others who will read this blog and I would like to insure that they understand what I am speaking about.
Romans 16:17-18
17 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
We are told to mark them and God has judged them and told us how to identify them. This indeed is a double edged sword and can only be swung, when interpreted correctly. The key word in this passage is "cause". "Cause divisions". Where is the cause of these divisions? Have I caused these divisions by pointing them out? Has this blog caused them? No, to me it is plain where the cause lies and I have marked them.
To whom it may concern,
I'm still unsure whether this forum is a useful tool in God's hand.
I've observed anger, impatience, judgement, and other acts which are inappropriate for Christians. I've also seen apologies, encouragement, forgiveness, and other acts which have surely been pleasing and honoring to God.
Before deciding if we're doing any good, we need a clear understanding of the good we should strive for.
Romans 8:28-29 (NLT paraphrase)
"And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters."
To me, this passage is saying that the good everything works toward is for his chosen people to become more and more Christlike.
Is the forum helping us do that? Could it possibly do it more?
So am I to understand that it is perfectly acceptable for the Communications Committee to use a website to provide their perspective about church problems (www.bellevuecommunicationcommittee.org), but they are asking other church members to refrain from doing so? Hey committee, let's apply a little critcal thought to our decisions and remember that as Baptists we subscribe to congregational rule which allows for diversity of opinion. This request will be better received if we ever change to elder or bishop rule.
BBC says that Gaines didn't negotiate his salary, yet also says 'an increase to compensate for additional living expenses' was made at a later date to increase his salary. Think about the wording of this. They didn't say they gave him a raise as soon as he came here, but that is what they did! Why? Sounds like a little negotiation going on to me.
Our very own RM (Dr. Randy McDonald) posted this on his blog:
http://sbobserver.blogspot.com/2006/11/my-ears-are-tired-of-hearing-this.html
"My Ears Are Tired of Hearing This
Do your ears ever get tired of hearing all the Baptist trash that is around us? Mine sure do! Even though I wish we lived in a perfect world, we don't--so I have a few questions that pop into my mind from time to time...
1. Why is the SBTC so silent about the Valleygate scandal? (Perhaps because they gave Otto money too.)
2. Why is the SBC cooperating with law enforcement officials and the BGCT is not? (Perhaps there is more to be learned.)
3. Why do so many want to jump on the bandwagon to destroy David Montoya when we should be thanking him for waking us up. (At least he helped us stop the corruption at $1.3 million.)
4. Why does the SBTC continue to preach about tongues and alcohol and permit adultery in their midst? (I would have said fornication but adultery is between two married people.)
5. Why doesn't the Executive Committee of the BGCT actually turn into men with some integrity and do something about this mess instead of running away?
6. Why do disgruntled people in Bellevue BC in Memphis have a blog to share their dirty laundry and ungodly thoughts with the entire world?
Anyone else see the hypocrisy?
I love my church,
Glad to know you are reading my blog. There are other pastors out there who are praying for your pastor and your church (www.sbcinterruption.blogspot.com)
Give me a shout if you ever come through Dallas and I'll buy you a cup of coffee. You might want to email me your real name first though.
Tim: Excellent synopsis earlier. You nailed it, except the final step on Their side should have been: We're rubber and you're glue . . . ;-)
PS 43:3: Great observation!
I decided to visit "RM" Dr.Randy McDonald's church web page. I think I now know why he dosen't like church members questioning their leadership.This is an excerpt from his church's web page.
"Simply Structured - We assign the ultimate leadership of the church to the pastoral staff and elders. The daily operations of the church are under the leadership of the church staff assigned to those specific areas."
Notice the word ultimate.
I guess he feels a kinship with SG
As for his bloging attacks on the members of BBC for questioning their leadership. While he constantly attacks the SBC.
RM, your hypocrisy has put on my scroll over list. I welcome you to the ranks of Mike Bratton,and His$25,000servant
rm
You have an internet site with critical observations for the whole word to view.
You give out the blog address of this forum so others can here and read our messages.
You post messages here that are critical of blogging about our concerns.
You send out letters to individuals who have posted here and admonish them for even writing about their concerns where others can see it.
AND YOU CAN`T SEE THAT YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE?????
i have more respect for the r.m. that my children enjoy.....RONALD MCDONALD!!!!
And you counsel people?
Again, I would rather go to RONALD MCDONALD for help.
DadofFour...Thank you for your post!
his servant
Please identify who the his is in your blog name.
I can understand deacons that don`t think they can anme themselves right now and memebers who think they have to hide their real names or take a good sheep beating from those who oppose their stand for truth but I can not understand why any real LEADER at the top of Bellevue`s sraff having to post anonomously?
Are you really a person speaking for Bellevue or just someone joking around with us?
For all I know you could be r.m.
Dr. Randy McDonald the Hypocrite Preacher from Celebration Bible Church in Texas who is a friend of deacon Derrick Calcote of Bellevue
OR
r.m. RONALD MCDONALD who honestly tells more truth and has more integrity than the above r.m. (RIDICULER OF MEN)
cJesusinme,
Wow, word does travel fast. I was slated to be on, but ended up being cancelled. It was a relief though, since I've got a mountain of work here to plow through over the weekend. You know, I was scared the topic would be some ridiculous People or Us Weekly issue that I'd have been completely ignorant about. Besides, I like most of the company around here better. =)
Thanks for asking,
Josh
So RM's a troll. I think we know what to do here.
DadofFour, well said.
Nothing is wrong with using the blog. Who has hours these days to go sit in the public forum/sanctuary and listen to hours and hours of discussion? At least here, we can address the issues while our congregational leadership postures itself. This forum is more accurate because every word is here for the reading. Also, participants are hopefully more concise than they would be with a microphone in their hands. Blogs can be re-read and re-read. There in lies the issue - We must be careful what is written. Speculative conversation should be replaced with questions. I believe many people are doing the right thing by just asking questions and then someone "gets on it and investigates" so the results/truth can be revealed.
What hypocrisy!! I have seen the "minor" renovations in the pastors office. The CC are the ones with the mis-information and they refuse to hear the truth. We must have this forum, so people can tell the truth without fear of more cover-up. Has anyone else seen the new revised pastors suite of offices?
Thanks Dreamwise for you words and I see no wrong in this blog. I was unsure earlier but this blog helps get the truth to all.
I just heard Deacon board member Mike Hobday is trying to join the Bellevue Staff. A BBC staff member told several this the other day. Hobday has been asking M.Dougharty to hire him for a paid staff position for years.
Can anyone tell me how we pick out who the church will hire? I know people i would like the Church to talk with.
isawit,
I've never seen the new offices or the old ones, and where is the line to see? I heard at one of the meetings that lots of money has been spent remodeling the Pastors office. In the last 2 years over $200,000.00 was spent remodeling the pastors office. I agree we must have this blog to get the truth.
Mrs. Gremillion,
God Bless Your sweet heart! I am so sorry that happened to you. Please know you are in my prayers. Doyal Long had no call to treat you in that manner - the flesh side of me wants to go upside his head with a bat - but alas, I cannot. I cannot understand under what jurisdiction of God or Bellevue Baptist Church that would allow a minister to speak to a church member in this fashion. Something has to be done - by other than my above suggestion - does anyone have a cooler headed idea?
Karen
Woundedandbleeding,
My dear lady you are not alone in this battle. I will pray and I must call minster Long and maybe his first name is Doyle I think, and I will check.
Brother Long must answer must give an account of his actions and be reported. Did you mean he slammed the phone on you? Did he say good-by?
Karen,
If this account is right, this minster must resign.
staffhelp, I'm going over to the latest Deacon thread. There is a response from hiservant that mimics the mealy mouthed responses we've been getting all along. I posted the same response over there.
staffhelp..
Sorry there is no line. Dr. Rogers was even locked out. Maybe the janitorial staff has access. It was a real fluke that I saw it a few weeks before SG came and then maybe a month or so after.
Before description.. Dr. Roger's office was nice with nice furnishings, much like you would have in a formal living area. It was connecting to the conference room that was used by the ministers for larger meetings. The conference room was very large. It had seating for maybe 20 people around a conference table. There was also 2 large seating areas with sofa and chairs. I would guess that room to be 20' X 40'.
Dr Rogers office was maybe 15'X 30'.
After Dr. Gaines
The office that Dr. Rogers had now has new furnishings..A large plasma
replaced the family portrait Dr. Rogers had. It is very nice but I would not consider it "minor" as the CC suggested. I doubt they even know. The biggest change is in what I guess they are calling the library.. It is the conference room! I was amazed that the office wasn't enough. This was anything but minor! I gasp with disbelief when I read the report of the CC.
I am sorry, but after knowing this, how could I believe any of their responses?
isawit,
Thank God for your 1st hand account. They truth cannot and will not be denied. I, for one, have never seen the office, Dr. Rogers or Dr. Gaines so I cannot personally comment.
The fact that you saw it for yourself and then you read the Communications Committee FAQ booklet shows how some people at Bellevue are speaking out of both sides of their mouths.
Karen
I love it how all the ministers and staff are always attacking other people yet there is no concrete evidence supporting it.
Give us some proof, folks. I can easily make up some shocking stories about Bellevue ministers and post them.
I'm not saying your story is not true, I'm just saying it's not credible unless you present FACTS.
Sister Pam and Brother Charles,
I do not know you, but you continue to minister to me. I just want you to know how much we love you guys! My family will be praying for your strength.
Stilwaiting,
My point exactly. You can't prove that the phone call actually occurred so you can't really count it as credible evidence for anything.
And who said I don't believe her? Please don't put words in my mouth.
And - on a another note - I work at Kroger and today when I was working the register, guess who came to my checkout line? It was Steve Gaines. And you won't believe this...he used the CHURCH credit card to pay for his groceries!!!
See how easy it is to create a story? I can't prove my story unless I show you the security camera footage, and until I do that, my information is still not credible. The same goes with the phone call.
ace said...
"I love it how all the ministers and staff are always attacking other people yet there is no concrete evidence supporting it."
You want evidence. Try the saving Bellevue website under decons responses
----- Original Message -----
From: mb20369@bxxxxxxxx
To: xxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: Phil Weatherwax-Josh Manning
Do you not copy me on your further emails mr and mrs gremillion. I told you earlier to stop emailing me and now you are harassing me. Continue, and I will take action against you.
michael blake
or this loving responseFrom:
Deacon DAVID L.WALKER
Papausm@xxxxx
To:gremillionp@xxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: LOVING CONCERNS FOR OUR CHURCH FAMILY AND THE BRIDE OF CHRIST
+I DON'T KOW WHO YOU ARE, BUT PLEASE DONT SEND ME ANY MORE OF YOUR MISGUIDED INFORMATION. YOU AND THE OTHERS WHO ARE SPREADING ALL THESE LIES ABOUT OUR PASTOR OUGHT TO ASHAME OF YOUR SELVES. I AM A DEACON AND HAVE BEEN FOR A LONG TIME. I DON'T KNOW OF ANY PROGRAM TO COME BEFORE THE DEACONS OR CHURCH APPOINTING YOU ARE MR. SHARPE THE AUTHORITY TO TRY TO REMOVE OUR PASTOR..IF GOD WANT HIM REMOVE HE WILL DO IT, NOT PEOPLE LIKE YOU. I ASKED DR. RODGERS AT ONE OUR OUR DEACONS MEETINGS WAS HE GOING TO BE PART OF THE PULPIT COMMITTEE,HE SAID NO BUT I WILL MAKE SURE THEY GET THE RIGHT PRESON. AND HE ALSO
SAID "THAT THERE WILL BE SOME ROGER PEOPLE THAT WONT LIKE THE CHANGE AND LEAVE.AND THE CURCH WILL BE BETTER OFF WITH OUT THEM. I DON'T THINK DR. RODGERS WHOULD HAVE WASHED DR. GAINES FEET BEFORE THE WHOLE CHURCH IF HE DIDN'T APPROVE OF HIM BECOMEING OUR PASTOR. SO IF YOU ARE SO UN HAPPY WHY DON'T DON'T YOU FIND YOURSELF ANOTHER CHURCH AND LEAVE MY CHURCH AND PASTOR ALONE
UNDER DR. GAINES THE CHURCH IS GROWING AND THE OFFERINGS IS 22%,HIGHER THAT LAST YEAR AT THIS TIME. BATISM ARE UP OVER LAST YEAR. REACHING LOST SOULS FOR CHRIST IS WHAT A PASTOOR IS SUPPOSE TO DO. AND HE IS DOING A GREAT WORK FOR THE LORD. I DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU ARE GETTING YOUR INFORMATION THAT THE CHURCH IS HURTIING. I GET THIS INFORMATION AT OUR DEACON MEETING EACH MONTH.MR.GREMILLION I WILL PRAY FOR FOR YOU AND FOR GOD TO OPEN YOURS EYES TO THE TRUTH SO YOU NOT TO GET CAUGHT UP IN SPREADING THESE LIES
DAVID L.WALKER
There are more letters that show LOVE and CONCERN from that page.
If this is not enough evidence for you.Why don't you suggest what will satify you.
ace,
Please either clearly state that you were making up the story about Steve Gaines in Kroger or delete it! I think you were just illustrating your point, but it wasn't completely clear. That's the way rumors get started, so please correct it.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
stillwaiting said:
"So, since a phone call cannot be proven, we are supposed to dismiss her suffering??
No, I never said that, nor did I imply it. I sympathize with Pam and I am grieving with her.
"Do you think Doyal Long would actually admit to what he did to her if asked??
I don't know. I've talked to Rev. Long before and I believe with all my heart if he truly did that, then he would admit to it and apologize. Ministers are sinners too, you know, they make mistakes just like everyone else in the world. They aren't...*gasp* perfect...
Must I remind you of the suprising way Phil Weatherwax treated Josh Manning?
How about the way Josh treated Phil? You see, this is a two-way street... and I have some emails from the people @ SB that are full of lies and attacks. Would you like for me to post them for the world to see to prove that their motives are wrong? I could, yes, but I don't work that way.
"Stop with the where are the facts....that is getting old."
Maybe once you present some facts then I won't have to ask for them anymore.
NBBCOP,
I apologize if there was any confusion in my post. I did not see Steve Gaines in Kroger. :)
Thanks, and sorry for any confusion!
Ace is Mike Bratton. I quote thusly and like so:
My point exactly. You can't prove that the phone call actually occurred so you can't really count it as credible evidence for anything.
And who said I don't believe her? Please don't put words in my mouth.
And - on a another note - I work at Kroger and today when I was working the register, guess who came to my checkout line? It was Steve Gaines. And you won't believe this...he used the CHURCH credit card to pay for his groceries!!!
See how easy it is to create a story? I can't prove my story unless I show you the security camera footage, and until I do that, my information is still not credible. The same goes with the phone call.
1. Very sloppy logic - check
2. Strongly inferring Sister Pam is a liar and then denying he did any such thing - check
3. Wild made up over the top analogy that he thinks proves his point - check
4. Repeatedly partially quoting someone in italics then responding - check
Bin wondering,
Ace is Mike Bratton. I quote thusly and like so:
You're wrong. You now owe some people any apology...
1. Very sloppy logic - check
What? Because my story was simply it's sloppy? I'm making it VERY simple for people to understand so I don't have to repeat myself a bazillion times for a simple point.
2. Strongly inferring Sister Pam is a liar and then denying he did any such thing - check
I never inferred that. Read my first post. I specifically said, "I'm not saying your story is not true."
3. Wild made up over the top analogy that he thinks proves his point - check
Think as you like..
4. Repeatedly partially quoting someone in italics then responding - check
So is the italics feature reserved for only Mike Bratton? It is it trademarked? I apologize if I broke any laws for using it.
I'm not saying your story is not true
General to anyone,
Anybody notice there are a lot more people posting this weekend after the Communications Committe sent out their FAQ booklet? If you look around, seems more and more people are acknowleding their discontent with the pastor. There are some very interesting posts on the newest Deacon thread.
Just making an observation: Could it be the CC has "shot themselves in the foot" by putting out the book? Seems a lot of people are checking out the blogs and posting was they know. I know there are a couple of new BBC staffers around and of course Proverbs. Welcome to you all and keep bringing the truth into the light.
Karen
Mike -
Demanding an apology from me is very Brattonesque. Post all you want to ace, I won't be reading it since I quit reading your stuff awhile back.
bin wonderin,
Mike -
Demanding an apology from me is very Brattonesque. Post all you want to ace, I won't be reading it since I quit reading your stuff awhile back.
Fine then. Think as you like, I can't stop you. What this just shows to me is that you can't admit you were wrong. Wait - maybe that's the whole issue at hand here: you can't admit some of the things you have said about BBC are wrong even when they were proven false. Hmm..
Sorry for the double post! My browser went ka-pooey on me.
ace - use the force - you have the power! Oh sorry, that krazy kool-aid kicked in again. You can delete your 2nd post by clicking on the little trash can.
Fine then. Think as you like, I can't stop you. What this just shows to me is that you can't admit you were wrong. Wait - maybe that's the whole issue at hand here: you can't admit some of the things you have said about BBC are wrong even when they were proven false. Hmm..
Ace - I believe you and apologize. No one deserves to be unjustly accused of being Mike Bratton based only on circumstantial evidence such as eerily similar writing style. I take you at your word that you are not him and apologize. I apologize to Mike Bratton - wherever he is - for accusing him of using a false name to post.
Now maybe you owe me an apology. To my knowledge I have not posted anything about BBC that has proven to be wrong. If you can demonstrate otherwise I'll apologize for being wrong about that too.
I don't see a white trash can under my posts. I saw them when I previously posted on other blogspot blogs but not on this one.
Maybe that setting was turned off...
Ace,
Are you sure? I see a trash can on all my posts - maybe it's the krazy kool-aid!
:)
bin wondering,
Ace - I believe you and apologize.
Thank you, apology accepted.
Now maybe you owe me an apology. To my knowledge I have not posted anything about BBC that has proven to be wrong. If you can demonstrate otherwise I'll apologize for being wrong about that too.
I honestly do not have the time right now to go reread all of the topic here. As you know, there are tons of them with 300+ posts in some of them. So - since you took my word, I'm going to take your word on this. I apologize if my above statement is incorrect about you.
Karen,
I'm absolutely, positively sure! No trash can for me... Hmm, I wonder why.
ace,
do dee doo doo do dee doo doo
Ace,
The way I treated Phil? Guess I should have just taken one for the team on that one. Oh, wait . . . ;-)
Wow. That's all I can say: Wow.
Amazed yet again,
Josh
Josh,
I thought about responding to that one on your behalf, but I figured you'd pop up eventually.
Karen
Thanks Karen. Good to know you've got my back. ;)
Josh,
So you would say you said absolutely nothing disrespectful to Rev. Phil in your email exchange?
I apologize if my above statement is incorrect about you.
Thanks and peace out for the night. FWIW - there should be a little gray trash can icon below the time/date stamp, but on your posts only. Strange it is not there. Maybe it's a browser option setting thing. I'll ask Al Gore to look into it.
Ace
If you can lift one word to defend Phil Weatherwax, you then are defending what God abhords.
.
If you are here to defend a man who would reaches as low as hell itself to make his "with no apology" points, then you need some serious prayer.
My evening commentary...
The time of “Pastor led, deacon served, committee run and congregationally approved” is over. There simply is no longer enough evidence to validate it's existence. The model may be sound in principle but it is obviously not working now. I will leave the “why” to the past as we move forward.
The model was accepted by most. Until, the pastor became verbally aggressive and belittling (from the pulpit no less), and the deacons failed to demonstrate conviction and strength to act, and the committees were seen to be steered and manned by only a few in rotating and significant positions, and the congregation realized it's impotence and unimportance.
Further, poor decisions have been made and continue to be made; hurtful statements have been made and continue to be made; communication from the church is often not believed and in part because it has been one sided, slow, arrogant and murky.
The People have had little to do with starting or creating any of the problems that we are currently facing. They are merely reacting to them and doing their best to sort out the facts from fiction and respond scripturally.
The people are finding out about how things work, how money is being spent and who is really in charge and they are deciding that they don't agree with it. The errors have been many and significant, and there is logically no end in sight.
The People have moved past the time when they will sit quietly or applaud in unison.
The People have moved past the time when they will give without consideration.
The People have moved past the time when they will vote in unison.
The People are standing but they are not applauding; they are asking, evaluating, discussing, proving.
The People want to know what's going on, they want to be included in decisions that involve finances, personnel, and the way the organization runs.
The people are involved, vocal, convictional, and eager to see things set right again.
The People are eager to see change for the better.
Perhaps the old model worked well before – but welcome to a new era.
Steve, if you are going to pull this out of the ditch you must immediately put all your effort in being right before God, and His people. Prove nothing but your love for Jesus and His People. Walk in humility with them, surround yourself with lowly, humble people who will love you, nurture you, council with you and hold you accountable. Steve, you can do this. You and Jesus have what it takes. Lead us we are ready.
Your brother, Andrew.
Oh no you don't. You predicated this on "lies and attacks" and linked me to them (which is remarkably ironic since that's exactly what he did to me and exactly what I didn't do to him). I'm not letting you change the rules part way through: lies and attacks. He did both, I did neither--put down plain and straight. Done.
Now, if want to deal with respect or disrespect, I'll answer your question with an emphatic "no." I responded in a manner that both comports with Scripture and does him the true respect of being dealt with like a man, by a man.
Finally, your statement implies that you disapprove of those who lie, attack, and are disrespectful of others--nothing wrong with that. I would, however, ask if you have anything to say about Mr Weatherwax or are your critiques limited to my harmless, loveable self?
swordoftruth,
"If you can lift one word to defend Phil Weatherwax, you then are defending what God abhords."
So God hates every word that Rev. Phil wrote? I beg to differ.
If you are here to defend a man who would reaches as low as hell itself to make his "with no apology" points, then you need some serious prayer.
It seems to me like you're being a little too harsh. Nonetheless, I would welcome your prayers. They are always appreciated. I can't turn that offer down, can I? :)
ace wrote:
"NBBCOP,
I apologize if there was any confusion in my post. I did not see Steve Gaines in Kroger. :)
Thanks, and sorry for any confusion!"
Thank you for the clarification, ace! And I'm NBBCOF, not NBBCOP. I'm not a cop, although I seem to be playing one on the internet lately.
bin wonderin,
There's no way "ace" could be Mike Bratton. He admitted he was wrong (about something, I forget what), he apologized to both of us, and he smiled! See? -----> :)
I'm off to bed. Good-night, sweet prince(s and princesses), and flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.
Josh,
I'm not going to argue with you. Believe it or not, you're not as innocent as you think you are. I challenge you to go reread the entire email exchange and I ask you this again: is there any disrepect from your part? is there anything that could seem like an attack on your part? And I'm talking about anything. Even if it was just one sentence. I would love to post some quotes for you but 1) that would be too easy for you and, and 2) I have better things to do with my time. In the end you'll just just counter-argue with me and I'm sure you have better things you could be doing with your time, as well.
Finally, your statement implies that you disapprove of those who lie, attack, and are disrespectful of others--nothing wrong with that.
You are correct - I disapprove of sin.
I would, however, ask if you have anything to say about Mr Weatherwax or are your critiques limited to my harmless, loveable self?
I have talked to Rev. Phil about the emails and he apologized for the tone he used. He recognizes it was a sin. What else must he do? Again - ministers are not perfect - they sin too! Have you sinned today? I trust that you are not perfect so give him a break. Do you forgive Bro Phil?
NBBCOF,
There's no way "ace" could be Mike Bratton. He admitted he was wrong (about something, I forget what), he apologized to both of us, and he smiled!
I've seen Mike apologize before. Perhaps you aren't looking hard enough or ignoring him like most people here seem to do. :) :) :) <-- since you like it so much.
I'll even give you a bonus smilie featuring a wink: ;) Enjoy!
custos wrote:
"I would, however, ask if you have anything to say about Mr Weatherwax or are your critiques limited to my harmless, loveable self?"
Really, ace, custos is just a harmless, lovable little fuzzball of a sheep. ;-)
NASS
ace said--
"I have talked to Rev. Phil about the emails and he apologized for the tone he used. He recognizes it was a sin. What else must he do? Again - ministers are not perfect - they sin too! Have you sinned today? I trust that you are not perfect so give him a break. Do you forgive Bro Phil?"
Ace
Where is your prof of this apology from Mr.Weatherwax.May I have the proof please ,after all anyone can say anything.
I'm not saying your story is not true, I'm just saying it's not credible unless you present FACTS.
dontbeatthesheep,
Where is your prof of this apology from Mr.Weatherwax.
Is an email message from him sufficient for you? If so, please send me your email address.
Turns out i'm not in bed. Got stuck in a delicate conversation justa fter I posted my goog night message. Anyway . . .
Ace,
I never claimed to be innocent. Oswald Chambers isn't a fan of innocene nor am I. I am a sinner. I've sinned in ways more terrible than you may be able to imagine. I have seen darkness.
You are right, I will counter argue with you because I'm right, blunt though that may be.
I've read and reread that letter so many times, I dont' need to go back. It was completely appropriate. I was not disrespectful--though I will not concede the moral highground that respect was requisite in that case.
I'm glad Mr Weatherwax apologized to you. But he hasn't apologized to me. I've said if he wants to meet to apologize I'd be willing. I didn't hear back from him.
Finally, you did not answer my question.
Josh,
You are right, I will counter argue with you because I'm right, blunt though that may be.
Stubborn too, eh? ;)
I'm glad Mr Weatherwax apologized to you. But he hasn't apologized to me.
Even if he hasn't apologized, do you forgive him for what he has done to you? Or would you if he asked?
Finally, you did not answer my question.
What was your question again?
ace said...
dontbeatthesheep,
"Where is your prof of this apology from Mr.Weatherwax.
Is an email message from him sufficient for you? If so, please send me your email address."
I've got a better idea.Post Mr.Weatherwax's apology to Josh on the blog .That way we all see that Mr.Weatherwax really did eat his words , but I have to ask this. If Phil W .wants to apologise to
Josh why did he not do so directly to him.
I keep hearing that some of the ministers have apologized for their actions, but I have not heard them admit their sin and ask forgiveness.
My bible tells me that "If my brother has ought against me that I need to make amends with my brother so that my fellowship with God is not hindered."
Do we want anyone preaching, teaching, or leading us in any way whose fellowship with God is broken?
He didn't apologize to Josh by apologizing to me. It's not like he said, "Ace, Tell Josh I am sorry if I offended him."
dontbeatthesheep, as much as I would love to post it here, I am going to deny that request. If you want it, give me an email address. It was a private conversation and as far as I am concerned, it will stay that way. I hope you will respect my wishes, thank you.
Ace said--
"dontbeatthesheep, as much as I would love to post it here, I am going to deny that request. If you want it, give me an email address. It was a private conversation and as far as I am concerned, it will stay that way. I hope you will respect my wishes, thank you. "
Ace
Do you think Phil W. will appreciate you sharing a private E-mail with a third party and why not put it in the open because that is exactly what I will do.
Ace,
Stubborn? Oh, I definitely can be, but it ususally takes me being absolutely convinced of something. It's kinda like loyalty--cuts both ways, and so it's worth keeping a close eye on.
I do forgive him. It would be nice if he would apologize to me and not to other people I don't know.
My question was as follows:
"Finally, your statement implies that you disapprove of those who lie, attack, and are disrespectful of others--nothing wrong with that. I would, however, ask if you have anything to say about Mr Weatherwax or are your critiques limited to my harmless, loveable self?"
ace said...
It was a private conversation and as far as I am concerned, it will stay that way. I hope you will respect my wishes,
WISDOM, surely you jest sir!
There is no wisdom in taking a private communication and handing it over to who knows who????? What wisdom is this may I ask?
I think you age is showing.
I would say a your are under 21 and over 12.
I charge you to go to Phil Weatherwax and tell him that you taking private communcations of his and giving them out like peppermints on Christmas morning.
See how I care for you?
dontbeatasheep,
Do you think Phil W. will appreciate you sharing a private E-mail with a third party and why not put it in the open because that is exactly what I will do.
I just don't work this way, sorry. Again, I would love to post it publicly, but I wouldn't feel right doing so. Not because of anything in the email, but because it was private...meant to be conversation between him and me only. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.
----
Josh,
Thanks. I thought I answered that question. I mentioned that "he recognizes it was a sin." By posting that, I thought you would know that I view it as a sin too.
---
swordoftruth,
There is no wisdom in taking a private communication and handing it over to who knows who????? What wisdom is this may I ask?
Personal preference, that is all. I didn't say any wisdom was involved.
I would say a your are under 21 and over 12.
And my age is important..because..?
I charge you to go to Phil Weatherwax and tell him that you taking private communcations of his and giving them out like peppermints on Christmas morning.
No, thanks. Again, I people will respect my wishes. I am not going to post the email for anyone to see. End of discussion...don't ask again...please.
ROPE A DOPE ALERT
ace remarked:
dontbeatthesheep, as much as I would love to post it here, I am going to deny that request. If you want it, give me an email address
Then swordoftruth said:
There is no wisdom in taking a private communication and handing it over to who knows who????? What wisdom is this may I ask?
Personal preference, that is all. I didn't say any wisdom was involved.
I would say a your are under 21 and over 12.
And my age is important..because..?
I charge you to go to Phil Weatherwax and tell him that you taking private communcations of his and giving them out like peppermints on Christmas morning.
Then Ace remarked:
No, thanks. Again, I people will respect my wishes. I am not going to post the email for anyone to see. End of discussion...don't ask again...please.
This is classic Rope a Dope posting.
Ace said--I just don't work this way, sorry. Again, I would love to post it publicly, but I wouldn't feel right doing so. Not because of anything in the email, but because it was private...meant to be conversation between him and me only. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.
Ace
I'm confused. You do not want to post Phil W's apology on the blog to protect his privacy,but you are willing to send it to me and voliate the very privacy that you want to perserve.Will someone explain the logic of this to me.
dontbeatthesheep,
I'm confused. You do not want to post Phil W's apology on the blog to protect his privacy,but you are willing to send it to me and voliate the very privacy that you want to perserve.Will someone explain the logic of this to me.
I offered to show you the email as proof. You denied my offer. There is a big difference between letting one person validate my claims by seeing the email than letting the entire world see it.
ace said...
I offered to show you the email as proof. You denied my offer. There is a big difference between letting one person validate my claims by seeing the email than letting the entire world see it.
REPLY:
Young man, there certainly is not!
Don`t you dare muddy the definition of private communications open to being offered to strangers by e-mail.
Let use some wisdom here please.
I will be more than happy to take this up with Phil weatherwax and we will see if he agrees with you even offering his letter to someone you don`t even know.
Ace said again--I offered to show you the email as proof. You denied my offer. There is a big difference between letting one person validate my claims by seeing the email than letting the entire world see it.
12:55 AM, November 19, 2006
Ace
For the last time-do-you-realize-that-by-sending-a- private-e-mail-to-a-third-party-that-in-fact-you-have-indeed-violated-the-privacy-of-the-person-that-sent-you-that-e-mail-in-this-case-Phil W. Since-you-fail-to-understand-this-simple-concept-ask-PhilW-to-explain-it-to-you-because-I-give-up.Keep your apology and hang it on the wall.
Don`t you dare muddy the definition of private communications open to being offered to strangers by e-mail.
So are you agreeing that it is indeed private communication? If so, why were you urging me to post it earlier? Then, once again, I stand corrected. I offered proof, was denied, and so I did my part. You can't claim I don't have proof of his apology now, which is what this is all about...I can't believe I spent so much time on this issue...
I will be more than happy to take this up with Phil weatherwax and we will see if he agrees with you even offering his letter to someone you don`t even know.
Be my guest.
For the last time-do-you-realize-that-by-sending-a- private-e-mail-to-a-third-party-that-in-fact-you-have-indeed-violated-the-privacy-of-the-person-that-sent-you-that-e-mail-in-this-case-Phil W. Since-you-fail-to-understand-this-simple-concept-ask-PhilW-to-explain-it-to-you-because-I-give-up.Keep your apology and hang it on the wall.
So I see that you're admitting posting private emails violate the privacy of people? And what exactly has Josh done with private emails? Go take a look at his blog. Why are people critizing me when I may make a simple mistake (which, btw, I didn't violate his privacy) but praising Josh when he does violate the privacy of others by posting emails from many people?
It just doesn't make sense..
ace said...
Don`t you dare muddy the definition of private communications open to being offered to strangers by e-mail.
So are you agreeing that it is indeed private communication? If so, why were you urging me to post it earlier? Then, once again, I stand corrected. I offered proof, was denied, and so I did my part. You can't claim I don't have proof of his apology now, which is what this is all about...I can't believe I spent so much time on this issue...
REPLY:
Sir, I have never asked to post or send anything to the list or beyond.
You said it was private.
I agree that it is
You said you would send it to dontbearupthesheep and I caoutioned you not to do so.
I think you have your posts and ours confused.
Maybe you need some sleep?
dqotlgvwswordoftruth,
As per your 12:14 AM post, I thought you were urging me to share it with everyone. I'm sorry if I misinterperated your message. Thank you for the clarification.
ace said...
but praising Josh when he does violate the privacy of others by posting emails from many people?
Go read the letter from Phil Weatherwax to Josh agian and you will have your answer.
Phil Weatherwax gave his permission for the letter to be reprinted as long as the entire letter was published.
Ace remarked:
As per your 12:14 AM post, I thought you were urging me to share it with everyone. I'm sorry if I misinterperated your message. Thank you for the clarification.
That`s ok, have a good night of rest.
swordoftruth,
Yes, I saw that, but I'm not talking about that email. There are other emails on his blog. One from Chuck Taylor, for instance.
I remember reading a month or two ago that Chuck was disappointed he posted the email without permission.
That`s ok, have a good night of rest.
Thanks, I'll be heading off in a few minutes. I hope you have a great night, as well. And if there is any doubt, I love you bro! (or sis!)
Oh, by the way, the posts I'm talking about can be found on his blog dating from late August to early September.
Well, this is fun. We're on from me attacking and lying to me publishing private emails that were never marked or agreed to be private.
So, i'll say again what I said to Mr X on my blog:
Dear Mr X,
"I have not attacked the church. I asked the [name of Mr X's position in the leadership] questions on his view of spiritual leadership, followership, and the pastor’s vision of the church.
"I wrote my opinion on your responses and decided to post that. Surely you wouldn’t fault me for sharing my thoughts on our conversation.
"But I posted the emails in their entirety to show the context of everything we both said. I did not want anyone thinking I took you out of context in my opinion piece. I believe posting the emails provided you with as much protection as it did me.
"I assumed you would realize I was asking for your opinion as a spiritual leader, [office again], and pastor search committee member—after all, we have never spoken nor met to my knowledge so I would have no other reason to contact you specifically. I believe nearly anyone would think a random email asking for a personal, not leadership, opinion would be awkward and out of sorts. I can’t imagine that you’re not aware that the emails you’ve been getting from other people are coming to you because of chance and not because of the positions you hold in our church.
. . .
"I truly don’t understand how my repeating what you said is in any way divisive. Did you expect me not to tell anyone the contents of our correspondence? If that was the case, I truly didn’t know because I generally expect that emails I send out may be discussed among others. I would certainly not have minded if you had made my emails available to the public even without my permission and without your replies. In fact, if you’re willing, I would ask you to forward my emails to the entire deacon body and Bellevue ministerial staff at your earliest convenience. If you want to include your own analysis of them, please feel free to.
"Would you have said anything differently knowing that the emails would be posted?
"I regret we have come to this,
"Sincerely,
"Josh Manning"
Again, those emails were never in any way, shape, or form implied or said to be private. I asked an official at the church for his position on some very, very basic issues:
"1) His opinion, biblically, of the way in which part of a congregation should proceed when it believes its leadership may be errant. 2) How he believed, again biblically, a church administration and deacon body should respond to congregants who ask for transparency, accountability, and real story behind so many whispered worries. 3) The specifics of the pastor’s ultimate vision for our precious church?"
Ace is right, and everyone should take a look.
Though Ace's pointing people in the direction of a site containing something he seems to deem as wrong is puzzling.
Go back and read the email exchange. Perhaps you have forgotten that Phil W. told Josh he could post it, but just to make sure it was in it's entirety.
See my recent posts, I'm not talking about that email.
Also, Phil has no business apologizing to you for his treatment of Josh.
Again, I disagree. Did Rev. Phil's email hurt his testimony? Yes, probably so...which would probably hurt other Christan's testimony's as well...if that makes sense... if I cuss you out on these forums, not only should I apologize to you, but I should apologize to everyone else for my non-Christian attitude because I have hurt the name of Christians.
Now dear friends, I am off to bed.
Josh,
Though Ace's pointing people in the direction of a site containing something he seems to deem as wrong is puzzling.
Just because I think something is wrong doesn't mean I won't talk about it. Cheesy analogy: sin is wrong, yet I talk about it. I know, very very cheap...but it's late, give me a break!
Goodnight Josh!
Arg, one more: Ace makes a very good case for these Sheep Beaters to actually apologize to the beaten sheep and to do so in public.
Ace and everybody else, I'll probably not be around tomorrow and possibly through Tuesday.
Now, to bed with me!
Agreed--we both need a break! G'night Ace.
And "G'night Ace" has to be the cheesiest line yet uttered at this blog.
Your missing the point. He has not apologized to Josh. Remember he signed his email "with no apologies." So, what do you make of that??? He is sorry for hurting his testimony to you but not to Josh! That, my friend, is priceless.
Can you not accept anything I say without arguing back? I honestly feel like you know what I'm trying to say and that you're just trying to give me a hard time. I cannot speak anything else for Bro. Phil. If you've got any problems with him, take it up with him, not me! I forgot what even started this... somebody said that he hasn't apologized to anyone? Well I was just saying that he indeed has. Maybe not to all the people who deserve one, but he really is sorry for his actions.
Ace
I agree that Phil Weatherwax
owes anyone who was harmed by his letter to Josh, an apology and that could include you or his class, ect.
I do not agree that Phil Weatherwax can apologze through you to anyone else.
Go tell your mentor to show you how to do the right thing by humbling himself and apologizing to Josh Manning before the NAACP gets their investigation cranked up.
I'm going to bed. Gotta get ready for worship in the morning at the great BBC! :-) Goodnight anyone who may see this.
stillwaitingandwatching said...
also Phil has no business apologizing to you for his treatment of Josh.
ace said--
Again, I disagree. Did Rev. Phil's email hurt his testimony? Yes, probably so...which would probably hurt other Christan's testimony's as well...
Ok so if Phil W is so repentant how come he has not apologized to Josh and by extension of your logic to the entire church??????
The battery on my laptop is going down and I need to recharge them,and I'm too tired to move this old body to the desktop.See all of you tomorrow.
I do not agree that Phil Weatherwax can apologze through you to anyone else.
I never said he could. :-) All my point was, was that he is sorry and he has shown it to me. If others want more information, you'll have to seek it yourself.
dontbeatthesheep,
Ok so if Phil W is so repentant how come he has not apologized to Josh and by extension of your logic to the entire church??????
I am not Rev. Phil, therefore I do not know the answer to your question. Why don't you shoot him off an email and ask him yourself? Or give him a call? He'll be able to help you more than I possibly can.
Andrew- Thanks for your 10:45 PM post last night. Sorry I am just now commenting on it but as I read your thoughts I was reminded of the example from our own denomination. If we don't like the direction we're heading, why not do what the SBC did 25 years ago? We didn't like the direction we were heading theologically and became the only denomination in modern history to turn itself around and change its theological direction. By voting people onto committees (are you listenng deacons?) and changing our structure, we can be the church we once were. I know that our problems as a church are primarily spiritual, not structural, but if Bellevue is truly run by the same handful of people who rotate on and off "power committees" involving money and personnel, then structural change is needed.
By the way, who was it in 1979 who shocked the SBC by winning the presidency? Who was the first figurehead along with Criswell, Patterson, Pressler, and others who, with a sweet spirit, changed the SBC structure and led us back to truth? You know the answer- Dr. Adrain P. Rogers.
Did anyone attend the Communcations Meeting this morning? I stuck my head in the room, but didn't stay. Looked like the committee members (I couldn't see how many, but I did see Harry Smith) were sitting facing the audience of about 50 or so people. Sure beats the 6 or so that I saw last week! :)
Truth is coming into the light! Praise the Lord!
Karen
QUESTION:
Did Harry Smith receive a private letter from the Whitmire`s laying out their personal devastation over the treatment of Dr. James Whitmire?
Did Harry Smith take the private letter from the Whitmire`s to other staff memebers at Bellevue?
Did Harry Smith disrespect the private communication that the Whitmires addressed to him and him alone?
Did Pastor Steve Gaines receive a copy of the Whitmier`s letter to Harry Smith?
Did Pastor Steve Gaines get angry about a letter to Harry Smith from the Whitmire`s?
Did Pastor Steve consistantly glare in anger at the Whitmire`s during Dr. Adrian Roger`s funeral?
Did Pastor Steve Gaines call the Whitmire`s into his office the day of Dr. Adrian Roger`s funeral to confront them on the private letter they wrote to Harry Smith?
Is Harry Smith still a friend of the Whitmire`s?
Is Harry Smith a man anyone can trust?
Is Harry Smith on the Commication Committee?
uturn,
Please e-mail me at the address in the profile.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
Fixed typos and reposted.
Friends. I have an idea. Maybe it is a bad idea. I am not in possession of the skills and equipment to pull it off. Please give me you honest thoughts.
Would someone go to the Communication Committee with a video camera and ask the questions we post and agree upon. We can together come up with a good list. Not gossip, just straight questions about $25k gifts, cheerleader tickets, whatever is appropriate. Legitimate concerns we al have. Perhaps an attorney or business man with a graceful demeanor not afraid of crowds and hostility from a witness who is quick on his feet can be our ambassador. Place the video of the Q&A on YouTube for all of us to see. Let the truth of the Q&A be seen by all. There is no need to keep the deeds and answers of the committee in darkness.
This is our only forum for Q&A since we will not get a business meeting. Let's use it.
If not a video, then maybe a typed transcript?
bin wonderin,
That is an excellent idea, however, SG has but the entire security department on "salary" and he frequently calls them in whenever he wants (that way he can use the security guards as much as he deems necessary and does not have to pay them OT anymore). He had everyone on staff there at the 9/24 meeting.
I am sure that they would be there with instructions to "remove" anyone who attempts to video the session. If they fail, they could loose their jobs. Sickening thought, isn't it.
For Bellevue to be healed, Brother Steve will have to leave or show us another side of him so he can be accepted by all the members. Some say he is showing change in recent meetings with staff and Deacons. If he truly, in his heart, feels the need to change, he must say so from the pulpit. If he does not see a need for change or apology, he should tell us that also. He has caused a lot of hurt and division among the brethern.
For me to give advice here would be like joining a gun fight with boxing gloves and I didn’t just fall off the cabbage truck..amen? but I do want to leave you with a thought.
Everyone here comes down on one side or another. I’ve told you what I and many other seniors feel and I don’t plan to stay around and try to say it again a thousand ways.
No doubt, all who have written here have a certain outcome in mind for our church. Please, in love, examine your strategy. So far, these blogs have been the only medium for members to let other members hear their hearts.
If your words here are meant to influence the final outcome that you desire, doesn’t it make sense to only say and do the things that will cause the broader congregation to join with you, sit with you, stand with you and speak with one voice. This blog is not a voting place but making it a little friendlier could certainly cause more members like me to come here, not in debate, but simply express our core desires for the church.
It is impossible for many to express their position in a place like this and not feel that they have associated themselves with every thing else that has been said. If we could just let what we say here be directed to the church at large and not to the last person who said something we disagree with. I have not found one single case where anyone has convinced anyone of anything.
It’s OK if you don’t agree but unless you enjoy a one sided argument, don’t bother. God bless and much love to all my brothers and sisters in Jesus.
Wise words senior.member
Thank you for your influence.
Andrew
Let me begin by telling you that I am not part of the “inner circle” of the good ole’ boys network, but assure that it does exist within the deacon body. I am not at liberty at the moment to divulge a tremendous amount of information, nor do I have a tremendous amount of information, but I did want you all to know that there is a growing concern among the outer circle. We have been given very limited, meaningful details. Obtaining any further details has been rather difficult and is being met with the same stonewall tactics within the deacon fellowship as it has to members of the congregation. Those of us with serious concerns are at risk of being removed from the list of active deacons for even attempting to gather additional details and information. Please, please pray for us as we are doing our dead level best to get to the root of our problems and determine the best direction that we can go from here.
I have kept up with this blog from the first moment that I knew of its existence. I have since been made aware that there are many of my brothers doing so as well, some that have concerns as deep as mine and others that are part of the good ole’ boys network.
I must let you know that among the good ole’ boys network there has been a well thought out plan to enter and post on the blog in an effort to create further confusion. I believe that someone has been referred to on the blog as rope-a-dope and it is a phrase that I had already heard before I began seeing it on the blog. I state this to issue a warning to the posters on the blog to beware of traps that are being set. I would refer to those that are engaged in this activity as wolves in sheep’s clothing.
To the administrator of this blog:
I want to personally thank you for the time and effort that you have put into maintain it. There have been questions raised here that have been kept from the deacon body at large and without seeing it here we would be in darkness. I commend you and a job well done.
To Custos:
We will inevitably owe a debt of gratitude to you for your persistence and helping these issues to be brought to light. I cannot apologize to you in behalf of Phil Weatherwax that is something that he must do for himself. I can offer an apology from myself and several other members of the deacon body that were in darkness concerning these issues.
To Derrick Calcoate:
I appreciate your enthusiasm to inform the readers of this blog, but you are being used as a pawn and should begin questioning the validity of the facts and verifying them before you chose to post them as fact. I think the world of you my brother, but you must by now realize that at least some of what we have been told is far from the truth.
To Mr. and Mrs. Gremillion:
The responses that you have received have been unwarranted and unkind. There is a day of recognizing that will come. Some of us are committed to bringing about that day, but if we are not able, it will be on the Day of the Lord. Bless you both and I offer my deepest sympathy for the pain and hurt that has been caused you.
To Hisservent(s):
I am reminded of Jesus when he met the woman at the well. He asked her to go and return with her husband, to which she replied that she had no husband. Jesus commended her and told that she spoke well for she had five husbands and the man that she was with now was not even her husband. You have spoke well in neither identifying yourself as deacon or staff or layman. I am aware and feel that is my obligation to reveal that you are not one, but at least two and perhaps more. Of two I am certain, because your evil plans to create further confusion have been revealed to me by your own admission. I would advise those that post on this blog to have no confidence in the post that are offered by this individual. I believe earlier that I had referred to them as wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Concerning the Communication Committee:
I would encourage each of you to at the very least to attend the meetings to address the communication committee. Even if you do not ask questions your presence will make our job much easier. I will caution that the group is largely composed of some of the “inner circle” good ole’ boys network, but by attending you will be turning up the heat on the issues and it will be most beneficial to our cause.
Finally, I would like to be able to answer the numerous questions that you may have of me, but at this time it would not be prudent to do so because it would hinder our efforts. Those of us that have met had wanted to wait until such a time that we could act decisively, but I felt an obligation to let the membership that were actively reading these posts know that we were working and will continue.
Please continue the good work. It would be impossible for us to know all of the issues that there are in the absence of this blog.
deacon_thats_a_beacon
We love you sir and are indebted to you.
Andrew
Deacon Beacon - you made my cry today. Just to know that we're not crazy, rabble rowzing dissidents makes this struggle worthwhile. Thank you for your struggle and your hard work! Thank for your discernment in knowing that "something is rotten in Denmark". God bless you and keep you and may we all remember we are one in the bond of love.
Keep the good fight! Karen
deacon beacon
I was trying to remain positive but deep down I was losing hope. This donation to FUMC and the report from the communication committee was wearing on me.
Thanx for the post and I will pray for you and your fellow truth seekers right now.
"DeaconWhoisaBeacon" said: "I think the world of you my brother"
If this is in fact true, please give me a call or drop me an e.mail.
My e.mail is dcalcote@msn.com.
You can get my phone number from the deacon directory, or by calling information.
Sister Pam,
Because I am so interested in you and your ministry, I GOOGLED you! Your song is so beautiful (have your written a lot of them) and I'd like to know more. Would you please email NASS and get my email address?
Thanks! Karen
Dear Deacon that's a Beacon,
Thank you sir, for your kind words. And thank you more for doing what you can from the inside. I don't envy your position, but I am thankful that you and so many likeminded others occupy that now very sensative office of deacon. You'll be in my prayers.
Best,
Josh
deacon_that's_a_beacon,
Brother if you're for real, speaking for me, I'm behind you 100%. I've tried to think the best in all this, but the 25,000 to FUMC sealed it for me, and confirmed my worst fears about the direction of our church. Keep fighting the good fight, you have many allies. Blessings.
stillwaitingandwatching--said
I am at the point to where I want heads to roll (not literally of course) but whoever came up with the bright idea for the $25,000 needs to be gone! Whoever was on the committee that approved the money, needs to be gone! Whoever's idea it was to do to Dr. Whitmire what they did....needs to be gone!!! I think you get my point....I could go on and on....Our church needs an EXTREME MAKEOVER immediately!
6:57 PM, November 19, 2006
Amen to that,well maybe I need to hold off on the Amens until SG leaves.
deacon_thats_a_beacon said...
Let me begin by telling you that I am not part of the “inner circle” of the good ole’ boys network, but assure that it does exist within the deacon body. I am not at liberty at the moment to divulge a tremendous amount of information, nor do I have a tremendous amount of information,
Then what brings you around?
but I did want you all to know that there is a growing concern among the outer circle. We have been given very limited, meaningful details.
And, if I may, you give so little in "meaningful details" that you do not even give your name. Now that would be a meaningful detail.
Obtaining any further details has been rather difficult and is being met with the same stonewall tactics within the deacon fellowship as it has to members of the congregation.
I really need to understand how forming a Communication Committee, camping out every Sunday morning to respond to any question posed, and addressing issues that should never have been publicized outside the church body qualifies as "stonewalling."
Seriously. If you're going to whip out Watergate terminology, whoever you are, what are your reasons for using it?
Those of us with serious concerns are at risk of being removed from the list of active deacons for even attempting to gather additional details and information.
Is that the only reason those of you are at risk?
Please, please pray for us as we are doing our dead level best to get to the root of our problems and determine the best direction that we can go from here.
Well, there's a handful of people who have a direction for you--Steve Gaines' career on a platter.
Are you open to another direction being considered "best"?
I have kept up with this blog from the first moment that I knew of its existence. I have since been made aware that there are many of my brothers doing so as well, some that have concerns as deep as mine and others that are part of the good ole’ boys network.
"My brothers"?
Could you explain that particular term? It sounds like a subdivision, but I can see where that might not be the case. Any amplification you could provide would be welcome.
I must let you know that among the good ole’ boys network there has been a well thought out plan to enter and post on the blog in an effort to create further confusion.
Such as the discussion regarding what kind of protest those who call this forum and/or savingbellevue.com "home base" should orchestrate in a worship service? Or something less dramatic?
I believe that someone has been referred to on the blog as rope-a-dope and it is a phrase that I had already heard before I began seeing it on the blog.
Yes, indeed. {Howard Cosell} Muhammad Ali. George Foreman. Kinshasha, Zaire, October 30th, 1974. An eighth-round knockout delivered by the former heavyweight champion, Muhammad Ali, stunned the boxing world! George Foreman, the aggressive reigning champion, punched himself out trying to penetrate the defensive machinations of the crafty Ali. {/Howard Cosell}
I state this to issue a warning to the posters on the blog to beware of traps that are being set. I would refer to those that are engaged in this activity as wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Hmmm. Wouldn't it be clever to present oneself as an oxymoronic "dissident deacon," warning the Forum/SB group of danger and thereby gaining their trust? Why, one might learn the secret handshake and get invited to the double-secret midnight conclaves, all the while being one of those crafty trap-setters!
But I digress...
To the administrator of this blog:
I want to personally thank you for the time and effort that you have put into maintain it. There have been questions raised here that have been kept from the deacon body at large
Since the deacon body at large is still communicating how? By telegraph? Semaphore? Pony Express?
and without seeing it here we would be in darkness.
Wow. Very dramatic.
I commend you and a job well done.
Problem is, what is the "job" that is being done so well?
To Custos:
We will inevitably owe a debt of gratitude to you for your persistence and helping these issues to be brought to light. I cannot apologize to you in behalf of Phil Weatherwax that is something that he must do for himself.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but didn't Mr. Weatherwax already apologize? Not to say that he needed to, but I do remember reading something awhile back...
I can offer an apology from myself and several other members of the deacon body that were in darkness concerning these issues.
Since you have chosen to remain anonymous, aren't you still operating in darkness? Or, should I say "from" darkness?
To Derrick Calcoate:
I appreciate your enthusiasm to inform the readers of this blog, but you are being used as a pawn and should begin questioning the validity of the facts and verifying them before you chose to post them as fact.
You know, I've noticed something about Derrick lately--he reacts very violently whenever someone says the words "cleaning woman." You don't think he could be operating under some post-hypnotic suggestion, do you?
I think the world of you my brother,
Not enough to refrain from disparaging him, though...
but you must by now realize that at least some of what we have been told is far from the truth.
Such as?
Mr. and Mrs. Gremillion:
The responses that you have received have been unwarranted and unkind. There is a day of recognizing that will come. Some of us are committed to bringing about that day, but if we are not able, it will be on the Day of the Lord. Bless you both and I offer my deepest sympathy for the pain and hurt that has been caused you.
Marvelous sentiment. Does it extend to the staff and lay leadership as well?
Hisservent(s):
I am reminded of Jesus when he met the woman at the well. He asked her to go and return with her husband, to which she replied that she had no husband. Jesus commended her and told that she spoke well for she had five husbands and the man that she was with now was not even her husband. You have spoke well in neither identifying yourself as deacon or staff or layman. I am aware and feel that is my obligation to reveal that you are not one, but at least two and perhaps more.
Fascinating. Plan to reveal anything about yourself, or is that not part of your "obligation"?
And while I'm on the subject: Whatever your affiliation, whatever your mindset, please sign your real names to your posts, re-register under your real name, or don't post.
For all the calls for a business meeting, the anonymity enjoyed here wouldn't be afforded in a genuine business meeting. Perhaps the first step toward seeing a business meeting called is displaying how you would behave in a business meeting?
Of two I am certain, because your evil plans to create further confusion
I mean, honestly.
Does "hisservant" wear a black cape? Twirl his mustache? Hold his pinky to his mouth and threaten "confusion" unless he's paid {Dr. Evil}"the sum of... one million dollars"{/Dr. Evil}?
Seriously... "eeeeeeeevil plans"?
have been revealed to me by your own admission.
Then reveal them to everyone else, since your intellgence work has reaped such rewards.
I would advise those that post on this blog to have no confidence in the post that are offered by this individual. I believe earlier that I had referred to them as wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Yes, that's true. So, again you can't disagree with someone, but just have to disparage that person?
Why is that?
Concerning the Communication Committee:
I would encourage each of you to at the very least to attend the meetings to address the communication committee. Even if you do not ask questions your presence will make our job much easier. I will caution that the group is largely composed of some of the “inner circle” good ole’ boys network, but by attending you will be turning up the heat on the issues and it will be most beneficial to our cause.
"Our cause"?
I'm sorry, I must've missed something here. Has the factionalization really gotten that bad? I mean, one person advocating "Us vs. Them" is one thing, but is that becoming the coin of the realm?
Finally, I would like to be able to answer the numerous questions that you may have of me, but at this time it would not be prudent to do so because it would hinder our efforts.
Again, whose efforts? The church body as a whole? It doesn't sound like it.
Those of us that have met had wanted to wait until such a time that we could act decisively,
Now is where it really gets interesting.
Apparently, and thankfully, the much-touted "Showdown" was a wash. What's the Plan B for acting "decisively"?
but I felt an obligation to let the membership that were actively reading these posts know that we were working and will continue.
And "we" refers to what group of people, exactly?
Please continue the good work. It would be impossible for us to know all of the issues that there are in the absence of this blog.
If people had to take responsibility for the concerns they voice, most of these "issues," whoever you are, would disappear like the morning dew.
--Mike
bin wondering,
You said:
Would someone go to the Communication Committee with a video camera and ask the questions we post and agree upon.
I have a better idea - how about anyone with legitmate concerns actually go to one of the meetings? Why do you propse to send one person to ask all the questions + record them...that seems kinda silly. You folks asked for a way to ask questions and voice your concerns...you've been given the chance, now go out and take them up on that offer. A video camera is not necessary.
br,
and it takes soooo lloonnnnggggg to scroll on by.....
NASS - it is time to block him -
Oh, lookie her...it's the usual "Somebody-supports-Gaines-and-Bellevue-response-and-they don't-have-anything-negative-to-say-about-the-church-so-ignore-him post"
have a better idea - how about anyone with legitmate concerns actually go to one of the meetings? Why do you propse to send one person to ask all the questions + record them...that seems kinda silly. You folks asked for a way to ask questions and voice your concerns...you've been given the chance, now go out and take them up on that offer. A video camera is not necessary.
Thanks for your feedback.
Apparently some did go to the meeting and one lady was given the brush off because a question had already been asked and answered. She was late because she teaches Sunday school. I just thought it would be an effective way for the communication committee to ... well... communicate.
Just trying to find a way for people with children and those that teach Sunday School to see what was being asked and answered. I agree that a video camera is not needed. A typed transcript would also work.
I'm still sorry for what I typed to you last night. I regret it and again, I apologize. I was upset about the $25k gift and took it out on you. My bad. I'm sorry I did it.
bin wondering,
Apparently some did go to the meeting and one lady was given the brush off because a question had already been asked and answered.
Well - do you know if she got her answer? Or they dismiss her question since it was previously asked?
I'm still sorry for what I typed to you last night. I regret it and again, I apologize. I was upset about the $25k gift and took it out on you. My bad. I'm sorry I did it.
I honestly can't remember what you did, but I remember you apologizing and vice versa. Thanks for your post, I appreciate it.
so if you are attacking me for not wanting to put up with his not so nice posts, who are you to say anything about me....you have no room to talk....
good night..
And tell me exactly again - how exactly did I attack you? I did no such thing. There wasn't even an implied attack. All I simply say is that you folks here love to 'scroll on by' when somebody who supports Gaines posts.
ace,
You've just recently shown up here so I'll give you a little history - Mike Bratton like to incite people and he's good at it. He truly cares about the church and I respect him (we've known each other since college) for his beliefs. Mike will tell you himself that he enjoys a good debate so if you want to go to with him, have at it. A lot of posters have read his missives are are no longer impressed.
Just an FYI - Karen
Well - do you know if she got her answer? Or they dismiss her question since it was previously asked?
She got a response, but not what I would characterize as an answer. That is an opinion though. She got a response because she waited and then asked again. I was just thinking it would be more efficient to offer a transcript. Otherwise they could get the same question next week, and the next, etc.
I honestly can't remember what you did, but I remember you apologizing and vice versa. Thanks for your post, I appreciate it.
Thanks I apologized to Mike also so if he comes looking for me tell him I already took back what I said and apologize to him too. I will do it again right now. Sorry Mike, I was wrong please forgive.
Karen,
I know exactly who Mike Bratton is. I've read every post on this forum, his forum, the SB website, etc. I am very familiar with the issues at hand, what is being accused, and etc.
From what I've seen, I can say I have nothing but respect for Mike. I believe he is a godly man and I highly admire him for the stand he has taken.
That is just my opinion, of course, you are always free to disagree...
Ace,
I like you - you didn't tear me apart line by line! :)<---I'm a smiley freak too!
Karen
Goodnight all! I've gotta work in the a.m.
Karen
bin wondering,
I was just thinking it would be more efficient to offer a transcript. Otherwise they could get the same question next week, and the next, etc.
I agree that that actually might be a good idea. But I bet if a question is constantly being asked, it'd be posted on the CC website eventually.
Karen,
I like you - you didn't tear me apart line by line! :)<---I'm a smiley freak too!
Thanks...I just try to reflect Christ in my posts and I don't see a need to attack people. People often accuse me of attacking themselves and/or others but I beg to differ with them on that! :) G'night, Karen!
BR said...
Leave it to Mike to make negative inferences and to attack someone who is wise and willing to seek the truth. His rather long winded (pun intended) diatribes are beginning to wear on us all - and it takes soooo lloonnnnggggg to scroll on by.....
NASS - it is time to block him -
8:44 PM, November 19, 2006
Did Mike Bratton send us of his brillant and thought provoking
essays????
Since Mr.Bratton feels so strongly about using his real name.I suggest when addressing him that we call him by his real name Mr.ANTI-BELLEVUE.If you do decide to block him I will not mind because it really does take soooooo long to scroll on by and we have so little time to waste
All I simply say is that you folks here love to 'scroll on by' when somebody who supports Gaines posts.
I don't really like the "supports Gains" characterization. I'm not anti Dr. Gaines. I just see fixable problems that are easily addressed and don't understand why there is a holdup.
I would like:
1. An apology for mocking us at Union City & for trying to tick off the selection committee;
2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC;
3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat;
4. I'd like a policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else;
5. I'd like a monthly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week;
6. A transparent committee selection process;
7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC;
8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.
9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.
That would go along way to putting this behind us. I don’t think these are unreasonable, but I suppose others may disagree.
I would add that if all 9 of my list were offered as motions at a business meeting, discussed and then voted down by the congrgation I would accept it as the will of the congregation and move on.
br,
Sounded like an attack to me
I can assure you, it wasn't.
I have read all of your posts, and it is obvious you support gaines.
You are correct.
you are entitled to your opinions of him and i am mine. So we disagree...have a good evening.
Correct again! Thank you and have a great night youself too.
bin wondering,
You list some good points. I agree with a couple, but I also disagree with some too. But you probably expected that, eh? :)
I won't disect your post because I honestly think that'll be a waste of my time (and yours!) and I don't think anything I say can change your mind about your opinion...
deacon thats a beacon posted: To Hisservent(s):
I am reminded of Jesus when he met the woman at the well. He asked her to go and return with her husband, to which she replied that she had no husband. Jesus commended her and told that she spoke well for she had five husbands and the man that she was with now was not even her husband. You have spoke well in neither identifying yourself as deacon or staff or layman. I am aware and feel that is my obligation to reveal that you are not one, but at least two and perhaps more. Of two I am certain, because your evil plans to create further confusion have been revealed to me by your own admission. I would advise those that post on this blog to have no confidence in the post that are offered by this individual. I believe earlier that I had referred to them as wolves in sheep’s clothing.
REPLY: evil plans? you must be joking! so, what are my evil plans and who exactly do you think I am? there are 100 Conspiracy theories full of hate on this blog and going around and you accuse me of "evil plans". WOW. you are FAR from a Beacon. you can get on here and join the rumors, slander, hate, libel, venom if you would like. that is your choice. if you truly are a Deacon, that is very very sad. you can try and justify the rumors and slander and venom on this blog until you are blue in the face but you cannot do it using scripture. like so many others, you have allowed yourself to be sucked in and deceived. are you one of the many Deacons that have "issues" and "concerns" but refuse to stand and make them be known? and I am not talking about on a blog.
you can attack me all dau long like many. as I have said many times, I will never stoop to that level. we are in control of our actions.
just another note to everyone. Bellevue, the service, the music, the buildings, the classes etc etc etc are NOT about you. They are to be about Christ and Christ alone. and don't everyone post they know that. by everything I have read, you do not understand or agree with that.
You list some good points. I agree with a couple, but I also disagree with some too. But you probably expected that, eh? :)
I won't disect your post because I honestly think that'll be a waste of my time (and yours!) and I don't think anything I say can change your mind about your opinion...
Some are more important to me than others. The numerical order does not correspond to their importance. It was a stream of consciousness thing. I doubt my mind would change on some, others maybe. They are at least worth discussing at a business meeting where you’d have a shot at convincing me at an open mike and vice versa.
And no matter what the vote outcome afterward we fellowship with ice cream; ensuring we all win.
And no matter what the vote outcome afterward we fellowship with ice cream; ensuring we all win.
Hey, now we're talking! I definately support that! :)
ace: i am thankful you are a part of this blog
Hisservant,
Thank you. The same applies to you. Thanks for all of your posts and thoughts. Even though everyone seems to disagree with you on here, I believe there are people viewing this who your posts are helping with the situation and hopefully guiding them to the truth.
Hey, now we're talking! I definately support that! :)
Then we can argue over the best flavor and brand of ice cream, or maybe we finally find common ground there. heh. See ya, I gotta go pay some bills and catch up on some work to get ready for tomorrow. Ugh.
Hisservant
Now that the $25,000 gift to FUMC is officially admitted to. will you finally answer this question. Do you support this gift????
hisservant,
can you justify giving 25k to FUMC with scripture?...i'd be interested to here that one...impress me with your scriptural/theological acumen.
I am convinced that the only way to stop the evil within Bellevue Baptist, since those in power will not follow scripture is to file a CLASS ACTION SUIT.
The world`s court would be a much better place to settle all of this than to try and continue to work with those who are lack the integrity.
whynotask,
I would bet that hisservant & ace are the same person. Also, I believe these two are female and not male. What do you think?
Can I answer your question? I think you are wrong.
hisservant,
while you're at it...give me the scriptural foundation for using psychological testing to determine one's spiritual gifts and appropriate ministry.
Legal Eagle,
How about a two pronged approach.
Class action and maybe a fulscale IRS audit
hisservant or ace,
here's one more...show me in scripture where worship is to be turned into entertainment for the lost masses in order to make church more attractive.
allofgrace,
can you justify giving 25k to FUMC with scripture?...i'd be interested to here that one...impress me with your scriptural/theological acumen.
Just curious - but can you justify with scripture that giving 25k to the FUMC was incorrect? If so, please try to impress me. Thanks.
His$25,000servant
Where are you we are waiting for your answer..
whenever someone answers a question with a question...they have no answer
allofgrace,
here's one more...show me in scripture where worship is to be turned into entertainment for the lost masses in order to make church more attractive.
And tell me this...do you believe that Bellevue turned worship into entertainment? If so, please give me a reason or two justifying this statement from your opinion.
Allofgrace,
whenever someone answers a question with a question...they have no answer
And do you have an answer for me? I seem to have missed that part of your post.
headoutofthesand wrote:
"Actually, we should just leave Mike to continue to do what he has always been doing--making his irrelevance continually more clear each time he posts.
"You see, on Planet Mike, there is only one right answer to every question--and only the lone inhabitant of that planet has those answers. Inhabitants of this planet also have a strange condition that prevents them from seeing any issue from a perspective that is not their own. So, I would ask that we not ban him--just feel sorry for him...it's very lonely out there."
Oh, rats. You revealed my secret strategy! Now, give me the secret handshake.
NBBCOF
I am all for settling these problems without a court case but since you are dealing with shady individals who want to conceal records this may be the only way to bring this all to an end.
There are obviously people who have been injured by the church and that would be easy to show and prove.
The church can be forced to bring their books out with the proper court orders.
The IRS has a hotline and may be interested in investing the time because of the church`s wealth but a class action suit would not be part of an IRS investigation.
Ace,
FUMC supports abortion and gay marriage along with a number of other liberal causes.Do you not realize that the money that BBC gave to FUMC will go to support these causes.FUMC has insurance to cover the physical losses resulting from the fire.Do you really support giving tithe money to a church that supports these issuews?????????
legaleagle posted: I am all for settling these problems without a court case but since you are dealing with shady individals who want to conceal records this may be the only way to bring this all to an end.
There are obviously people who have been injured by the church and that would be easy to show and prove.
The church can be forced to bring their books out with the proper court orders.
The IRS has a hotline and may be interested in investing the time because of the church`s wealth but a class action suit would not be part of an IRS investigation.
REPLY: WOW
dontbeatthesheep,
I understand what is being said. Allbygrace posted that he wanted scriptural proof that it was correct to give the money.
All I simply asked for was the opposite. Scriptural reference that says it was incorrect.
And to clarify, I understand that abortion is wrong and the Bible states that. I am asking on the specific issue about donating money to such a cause.
Ace
Do you upport the $25000 gift to FUMC????????
hisservant,
Your 9:50 post to:
Deacon thats a beacon
" WOW. you are FAR from a Beacon. you can get on here and join the rumors, slander, hate, libel, venom if you would like. that is your choice. if you truly are a Deacon, that is very very sad. you can try and justify the rumors and slander and venom on this blog until you are blue in the face but you cannot do it using scripture. like so many others, you have allowed yourself to be sucked in and deceived. are you one of the many Deacons that have "issues" and "concerns" but refuse to stand and make them be known? "
---------------------------------
It's interesting that you post this. I've asked you to call me and talk to me on the phone and you refuse. Why will you not call me? I repeat that I believe we are friends.
Tonight, I received a phone call from a friend (teacher) that attended the meeting. He too, said it was a pep-rally. I wanted to address two examples of my name being brought up that offended him and now me since they are not true. All I've ever wanted is to address issues that were brought to me by staff members. For doing so, I've been slandered, called many names, and made out to be a troublemaker. I guess if you don't like the message here at Bellevue then you "kill the messenger". The truth is the truth whether you want to believe it or not. It's not hard to find the truth if anyone wants to find it.
Tonight, the first incident occurred when Mike Pruett, MD stood up and asked why Matthew 18 was not going to be used on Mark Sharpe for his sins against the church. Dr. Mike Pruett has been my physician in the past and we know each other very well. I believe Mike Pruett to be my friend. Dr. Mike Pruett has not taken the time to pick up the phone and call me one time since I've had issues. He has no idea what I've been told by trusted staff members. Mike, if you read this or hear of it, please call me. I would like to speak with you and ask you to give me one thing that I have said or done that is not the truth instead of condemning me before the Ad Hoc Committee.
The other item my Sunday School Teacher friend told me was when a Dwayne Hartsoe stood and asked Chuck Taylor to address Steve Gaines and Mark Dougharty appologizing several weeks ago but not asking forgiveness. Chuck's response was "Mark is splitting hairs".
I don't know Dwayne Hartsoe but I believe him to be a Godly man who is broken over what is going on. I have never spoken with Dwayne until yesterday when he called me. I didn't call him because I don't know him. He had heard that the applogies had been given and he wanted to verify it with the source.
He asked me if the Pastor went a step further and asked for forgiveness. I told Dwayne the thought had not crossed my mind but from my recollection, they said they were sorry for what they had done and wanted me to accept their appologies. That's exactly what I told Dwayne I had done.
For you Chuck to say "Mark is splitting hairs" is a statement I wish you would rescend. These are not my words. I've not thought one moment about the apology from Steve Gaines and Mark Dougharty two weeks ago. I accepted it and it's over. In fact, I forgave them three months earlier when they did it.
Still waiting for your phone call.
Ace said - Just curious - but can you justify with scripture that giving 25k to the FUMC was incorrect? If so, please try to impress me. Thanks.
I think it is somewhere that states something about pearls and swine - oh yeah and another place that says something about abstaining from even the appearance of evil in your actions..and then there are the proverbs - oh yeah - Soddom had something to do with what God thinks about it...and another one about the life of the flesh is in the blood and another one where the baby lept in the womb...
I don't mean to be a smarty, I am just beginning to get annoyed with this back and forth over something that is obviously contradicted in scripture. There is no excuse for it. It reminded me of the government throwing tax dollars at Katrina victims because they were under fire to do something, so they just threw money at it...NOT the way to get things done...especially when these people have no respect for God's Word and His purpose.
This situation reminds me of the Clinton administration..
what a great time of worship at Bellevue today. Bible Fellowship, and both morning services were great. Sunday Nights are beautiful at Bellevue. the music was great tonight and the Lord spoke through Brother Steve in a mighty way.
Hisservent
Please stop avoiding the $25000 question. Or can we assume that by your silence you support giving to FUMC and support its activities...
dontbeatthesheep,
Do you upport the $25000 gift to FUMC????????
Apart from reading stuff on this board, I have never heard that a check was actually given to anyone. I will comment on the issue as soon as I have confirmed it for myself. By the way- in the other deacon thread, soccermom made a great post, I suggest you go read it.
hisservant said: "we are in control of our actions"
yep... I thought hissss servant was more than one person. Subcommittee it seems to me... At one point I'm pretty sure it was Steve Tucker... "What a deal"--
Just an observation and opinion. hissss serpent and Ace want to argue. If you are lurking and new don't waste your time.
The snowball is headed downhill folks... It is growing... Bellevue needs to be returned to congregational governance. Bin Wonderin's list above was right on target.
Deacon thats a Beacon,
Your words tonight were a blessing to me. God Bless you. I have been praying for the deacon body for men to be seekers of righteousness no matter what the cost. God will always honor truth.
Sister Pam,
My family is praying for you and Charles and your family. May God bless you. Thank you for your boldness and your tender heart. There are many tears being shed.
on the issue of th 25k to FUMC:
Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; 20:1-5....read these and tell me God is not serious about the things FUMC supports.
hisservant
WOW is such a correct reply for I see coming down the road.
The courts of Tennessee have a way of toning the music down for people who misuee funds and injure people.
Trust me on this.
allofgrace,
Does FUMC only support bad things? I think not. Go read the post by soccermom in the other post, it really is a good read. FUMC has many good ministries to help the poor, etc.
Those who oppress the poor insult their Maker, those who help the poor honor him. - Proverbs 14:31
ace said...
dontbeatthesheep,
Do you upport the $25000 gift to FUMC????????
Apart from reading stuff on this board, I have never heard that a check was actually given to anyone. I will comment on the issue as soon as I have confirmed it for myself. By the way- in the other deacon thread, soccermom made a great post, I suggest you go read it.
10:40 PM, November 19, 2006
Ace
This is the same answer that His$25000servent gave .No wonder people are beginning to think that you two are the same person.
The $25000 gift was confirmed this morning by your precious CC.
Sooner are later you are going to admit that it happened.
Or will you take the cowards way and avoid addressing this issue like his$25000servant is doing.
For those who want to begin the ground work for a class action suit, do so by beginning your own personal file on who, what, where, when, and how you have been injured. Keep a personal file on every detail, including messages that show obvious conflict within the church due to the issues at hand and the division all of this is causing between friends and family, ect. Record keeping is of prime importance.
Bin Wonderin said:
I would like:
1. An apology for mocking us at Union City & for trying to tick off the selection committee;
2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC;
3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat;
4. I'd like a policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else;
5. I'd like a monthly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week;
6. A transparent committee selection process;
7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC;
8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.
9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.
That would go along way to putting this behind us. I don’t think these are unreasonable, but I suppose others may disagree.
9:37 PM, November 19, 2006
Sounds like a great Christmas list to me... jmo
Mr.Sharpe
Please do not answer me on the suggestion of a class action suit but take my advice and keep a file on every incident, every name, every situation that has injure you and your family and actions that had been targeted to blemish your reputation. Keep records whatever you do.
dontbeatthesheep,
This is the same answer that His$25000servent gave .No wonder people are beginning to think that you two are the same person.
Oh, so because I have no knowledge of the event it makes me the same person? Give me a break.
legaleagle... this needs to be handled within the church. Cool the legal stuff. That's off base in my opinion. It will just make things worse, not better. What we need now is prayer and a business meeting where the people who didn't just fall off a cabbage truck get to speak. All in my opinion of course.
ace,
food pantries and clothes closets can't justify supporting what God calls an abomination...do you seriously think that God puts it all on a scale...and somehow these things will balance it out?...even the heathen shows love to his own...but he will perish nonetheless.
I would advise that no one stop the flow of conversation from anyone who leaves a message as all the hateful messages help to show proof of the intense atmosphere that has been caused due to the church and those who are making the decisions.
as for the worship being turned into entertainment...even the teenage kids have dubbed it "the Jamie Parker show"...they seem to have more discernment than many of the adults.
ace said...
And to clarify, I understand that abortion is wrong and the Bible states that. I am asking on the specific issue about donating money to such a cause.
God also expects us to be good stewards of the money that He entrusts to us. Why would any Christian support anything that God considers sin?
legaleagle.... Your posts don't square with the Word of God... I don't think you'll find many on either side of these issues who welcome such posts. Just my opinion.
Good night.
A little humor, anyone? Any Star Trek fans out there?
Maybe BBC has been take over by the Borg?!! Resistance is futile! You will be assimilated!
This one hit me after reading hisservant's post @ 9:50pm (Nov 19) where he states "we are in control of our actions".
As for Brother Bratton, he rarely answers any questions put to him, he just parses everybody else's statements.
He needs to realize the church doesn't WANT to know the truth. They want to do damage and spin control. Case in point - if the church is seeking to make things right and seeking the truth, why do they contact an ex-staff member and ask to talk to him, but stipulate that he can only answer yes or no to the questions?
Got an answer for that, Mike? I'll tell you why. I've given several depositions over the last couple of years. One things lawyers on the opposing side count on is that in response to questions, the witness give more information that JUST a yes or a no. Thus, to limit someone to solely yes or no answers reeks of spin control, of not seeking the TRUTH.
Did Mr. Whitmire resign (as in the Communications Committee brochure recently mailed out)? Well, yes, technically he did resign, but it isn't hard to find out there is WAY more to that story than "he resigned". Same goes for David Smith and Rob Mullins. One ex-staffer was about to agree to go and tell his story until told that he could only answer yes or no to questions.
Fellow Bellevuers, ask yourselves is all this worth it? Maybe it is time to go (they'll be plenty to show you the door and throw a party afterwards - except for the bean counters). Even if SG were to leave, that DOES NOT resolve the issues that are the cause of all this. Judging by 9:30 attendance over the last month or so, some may have already made that decision. It sure showed up in the lowest Love Offering since 1980.
Pray. Does the Lord want to use you elsewhere? I had never asked myself this question in any seriousness until lately...I am now. Leaving behind practically all of my spiritual heritage to go elsewhere would be an act of obedience heretofore unknown to me, but that may be what my family and I are being called to do. So I encourage you, be willing to ask that question.
Ed Thompson
allofgrace,
food pantries and clothes closets can't justify supporting what God calls an abomination...do you seriously think that God puts it all on a scale...and somehow these things will balance it out?...even the heathen shows love to his own...but he will perish nonetheless.
I'm not going to do research on this what I'm about to say, but take it as an example. I am in no way saying any of this is true?
What brand of car do you drive? Where do you shop for your groceries? Do you ever go to Wal-Mart or Target? Where do you fill up on fuel? Who do you pay for your internet connect and (cell) phone?
Think of the products you buy. Toilet paper, toothpaste, food, etc.
If you were to list a bunch of the stores/products where you give your business to, more than likely you will find out some of them support gay marriage, and etc. How dare you do business with them? They are taking the money you giving them and donating them to anti-Christian causes. So what should be do in this situation? I can't believe you are helping support these horrible issues.
Now - disclaimer, I am not attacking you. I am not saying you support any of the things I mentioned, I am just providing an example. I promise you no offense is meant, so don't feel like you have to defend my attack...because it wasn't an attack at all. :)
excellent point Mr Thomson, it may be time to let the dead bury the dead.
Ace... Washington need you... You just out spun the best of them.
No one has to agree about a class action suit being filed but do remember there are many Christian attorneys who are members at Bellevue and I would assume considered to have a worthy calling to represent clients who have needs.
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