This Sunday, November 12th, is Love Offering Sunday at Bellevue Baptist Church.
After all the information about the improvements and future expansions of the physical plant of Bellevue, there is a reference to funding for the Impact Ministry Center in Frayser, the only mention of any of the 2006 Love Offering going towards missions.
Now, let's look at giving by various churches across the SBC to the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering for international missions. In 2005 Bellevue Baptist Church was 41st in amount given at $201,725.00. The list of the top 100 churches in total giving is here.
To put that into perspective, however, we need to look at the per capita amount given. For a church like Bellevue, reported to have 29,700 members, that's a paltry $6.79 per member! Even if just 10,000 members contributed, that's still only $20.17 per person. The list of the top 100 churches in per capita giving is here. Note that BBC comes nowhere close to making the cut.
Here are last year's designations for the Love Offering, and there's no mention of missions.
A search of Bellevue's website results in 0 (zero) records containing "Lottie Moon" or the terms "giving" and "missions" in the same article.
Considering the issues facing our church now and the information presented above:
1. Do you plan to contribute to the 2006 Love Offering?
2. Do you believe that recent Love Offerings have been wisely invested in Bellevue and in the ways they were promised?
3. What is your opinion of the amount given to missions? How does it reflect on our vision to "Send out Thy light and Thy truth"?
4. Estimates of the cash reserves of BBC range from $25-30 million, and this year's general budget receipts are estimated to exceed $30,000,000. How does this influence your opinion?
Please remember to keep your comments respectful of others regardless of whether you agree with someone's position or not. We can disagree without being disagreeable.
Thanks to "memphismom02" for the idea for this topic.
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46 comments:
Does anyone know the total amounts given to the Love Offering the past few years?
NASS
padroc wrote:
"Take a look at the budget."
I'm not going to dispute your figures (other than to say that 20% of the budget has to be more than 3-4 million if the total budget is really upwards of $30 million), but I'd love to take a look at the budget. How do I get a copy?
I was under the impression we already have a prayer/wedding chapel. Is there some reason we need another one?
Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that BBC doesn't give more than $200K to missions, just that that's all they give to the Lottie Moon offering. And compared to other SB churches, the amount given per member to Lottie Moon truly is paltry.
NASS
I have a problem with the whole show that goes with it. I've been out of town the last couple of years on Love Offering Sunday, but from the film clips they've shown, it looks like they've historically made a big production out of having everyone file past the big box and drop their envelopes in it. Giving is a very private thing and as such, putting on a show and having people make a public display of giving their offerings, to me flies in the face of Scripture. "But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth." Matthew 6:3
I'm very uncomfortable with this, and even if I were going to give to the Love Offering this year, I wouldn't want to do it in that manner. I also realize this is a long standing tradition at Bellevue, and if other people are comfortable with it I have no problem with them participating. I'm just saying that for me to participate seems wrong.
NASS
I've already made mine. I love James Dobson and the ministry that he has at Focus on the Family.
By the way congrats to our blog admin. Over 20,000 visits on the counter in just over 2 weeks. You know that means that the 3 or 4 of us have visited 4,000-5,000 times each. Well, plus Mike Bratton. Thanks Mike you have helped reinforce the legitmacy of this site. I knew you were good for something.
For thirty years Bellevue sat under the teaching of one of the most gifted pastors this world will ever know. We are without excuse. To close our fist to foreign missions in these dark days must be an affront to Almighty God. Thank you for pointing this out memphismom2 and NASS. No wonder we are having problems.
25 million in the bank?
Wow. That would buy a ton of airtime at Thru the Bible Radio
I was under the impression that the Love offering was a once a year offering that would eliminate debt for our projects, and cover all of the expenses that the general tithes and offerings did not cover. Other churches take up offerings at different times of the year for giving to other causes such as Lottie Moon, building funds, etc., while we always just did the one time offering - which is a good thing because the pastor did not have to focus or constantly dwell on the giving aspect but once per year. ALL people are turned off by someone constantly harping on giving, regardless of what they say, therefore, Dr Rogers was wise to hold this special time only once per year. One of the main reasons we only gave an extra weeks tithe, was because of the designations listed, which included the lack of missions giving. Having children, I never saw the need to design the children's building to such an elaborate extreme, but would have preferred a better use of the funds to be applied to square feet rather than decoration, but obviously that is a dead issue at this point.
Regarding the "prayer chapel" - I have felt from the beginning that this is a total waste. Steve Gaines from the start stated that he wanted to teach us to pray and wanted a designated place so we could pray like HE felt we should pray. So, if we do not pray like he says, does that mean we will be locked out?
We already have a chapel, ugly, dated and cramped tho it may be. How about spending a few dollars sprucing it up or even expanding it and forgo the new building in favor of missions. There are many many members who would go on mission trips, youth trips and choir trips but they do not have the money or cannot afford to take the time off from work to go. Why not put that money into scholarships for this purpose? After all, isn't that the purpose of our church - to further the gospel - to obey our Great Commission?
And NO, we will not be giving this year, rather we will send our love offering to LWF, where they ARE sending out the gospel on a daily basis and they are THANKFUL for support.
I encourage each of you to prayerfully consider where the Lord would have you give your Love offering this and in coming years.
The idea of a prayer chapel really bothers me. Does that imply that you can pray more effectively there? Is this more symbolism over substance? Is it a gemmick of televangelism? (like Oral Roberts and his 'Prayer Tower' in Tulsa.) NBBCOF, is this comment inappropriate?
Regarding the "prayer chapel" - I have felt from the beginning that this is a total waste.
Agree. I'll take prayer advice from the Top.
Prayer
5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Everyone has access to a closet. We don't need a special building.
ilovebbc,
While your heart may be in the right place, your note, I think, would not. This would be no different than the person back in the "Tithes" thread who commented, "I have been putting my tithe envelope in each week with a message such as 'I am withholding my offering until all business of the church has been resolved.'" Both may reflect your opinions about everything that's going on right now, but neither is the time nor the place to express your opinion or to "send a message," regardless of the message, to the pastor or anyone else. Anyone who can't give an offering without making a written "political statement" along with it should just not give -- in my humble opinion.
NASS
NASS,
I agree. Political posturing has been far to prevelant. Suppose that those with concerns also dropped there concerns in. What then, should we gather and count ballots afterward? God forbid. The last thing that is needed is turn an offering receptical into a ballot box.
nbbcof, tim,
You both make good points. NBBCOF, I agree with you about filing in front of the church to make an offering..though I think there's nothing inherently wrong with it..I also think whatever we do in church as symbolic or otherwise, we should be careful not to create an atmosphere which has the potential to create pride on the one hand, or unnecessary embarrassment on the other. The Bible is pretty clear about doing such things as fasting, giving, praying for men to see. If we do any of those things for the sake of being seen as "spiritual" in the eyes of men, we've received our reward already. I've seen this type of symbolic gestures used wrongly before...ie: asking the congregation to come to the altar at the end of a service to "vow" to witness to at least 2 people the following week. Should we witness? Of course..but we need to be careful about making presumptive vows before the Lord, plus the motivation for making such vows. People, in their humanity, will sometimes do such things because they don't want anyone around them to think they're less spiritual or committed..wrong motivation. The Bible tells us to not boast of tomorrow..because we don't know what that day will bring.
Tim, I agree 100% about using an offering as an opportunity to make a statement. Offerings, as all acts of worship and obedience are holy unto the Lord, and should be handled as such. Good points.
"What is not freely and joyfully given, God neither needs nor wants."
Dr. Adrian Rogers
Speaking for my wife and myself, we are especially excited about this Love Offering Sunday and are looking forward to freely and joyfully giving to our Lord tomorrow.
Tim said... By the way congrats to our blog admin. Over 20,000 visits on the counter in just over 2 weeks. You know that means that the 3 or 4 of us have visited 4,000-5,000 times each. Well, plus Mike Bratton. Thanks Mike you have helped reinforce the legitmacy of this site. I knew you were good for something.
Renown and legitimacy are two different animals entirely. I could give examples, but I'm sure that's unnecessary.
Political posturing has been far to prevelant. Suppose that those with concerns also dropped there concerns in. What then, should we gather and count ballots afterward? God forbid. The last thing that is needed is turn an offering receptical into a ballot box.
Agreed, and thank you for you observation.
I'd be interested in your thoughts regarding the so-called "Showdown," as well.
--Mike
Mike,
I believe that the "Showdown" was something that orginated at another web-site. But since you mention it I would prefer water guns at 20 paces. I believe that if we could get the entire chruch involved we would have a pretty good time. But not today, way to cold for that today.
Perhaps on a day like today, we could have a chilli cookoff or a hot cocca contest.
Great idea Tim...then afterwards we can all join in a rousing rendition of Purple Haze...oh wait....that's already been done...ok..my snarkiness for the night. Kudos Tim.
Choice, there is no Scripture available for justifying the hate-filled anti-Bellevue attacks generally conducted from the shadows.
"Anonymous living" is one thing.
Anonymous hating is something else entirely.
--Mike
Hold on, Mike. Choice might be a while...
You guys have to be kidding about remaining anonymous. If you're man (woman) enough to write something you should be man (woman) enough to own up to it. Common decency requires that you sign your names.
rm,
I personally believe that it is no importance to any one who I am. You know after all. It's not about me.
How did your worship services go today at Bellevue? Many of us have been praying for you and wondered how things turned out.
RM Said: "How did your worship services go today at Bellevue? Many of us have been praying for you and wondered how things turned out."
Dr. McDonald,
Service was wonderful. In the 11:00 service alone we had well over 20 decisions for Christ.
Personally the Lord blessed me with the privilege of counseling with an 11 year old young man. The love of Jesus shone all over his face.
Thanks for asking and more than that, thanks for praying.
In His service and yours,
Derrick Calcote
Derrick,
That's great! Perhaps your church is finally turning the corner...
RM said: "That's great! Perhaps your church is finally turning the corner..."
The Lord has been very gracious despite the unfortunate conflicts that have been going on. The counseling room has been very busy over the past several months.
An unsaved friend of mine who I was relating this to said, "No such thing as bad publicity, huh?"
My reply was, "Well, I'd prefer to say that what the enemy meant for evil, God is working out for His good."
Stumbling,
I have been made aware that while there are many who are no longer in attendance, that not many have actually moved their letter. EVERYONE I have talked to that is attending worship at other churches are not moving their memberships until the Lord gives them permission to leave. If these people who are seeking the truth and see problems that are not being addressed properly are NOT moving their letters even though many have been told to "leave if they don't like it" , and they are not planning on moving their memberships until the Lord tells them to, then those that are telling them to leave are not working the Lord's will, they just want it their way or they will show us the highway (so to speak.
It also tells me that the Lord is not going to stand for it, He is keeping us there for a reason and even if someone decides to remove us as members, deacons, teachers, lay workers, missionaries or just seat fillers, His people belong where He places them, and to see them driven out is in no way His will.
As stated in Jerimiah 23, the Lord will bring his sheep back into the fold. Please read the passage, especially v1-4.
There is a day of reckoning coming and it is His will that will be done. We will not move our membership until the Lord opens the door. To do so would place US out of His will and that is not a place I desire to be.
I know of three couples (one of them by name, but I won't) who joined Germantown Baptist this morning.
NASS
Have a deacon share with you the report they got last Sunday. Ask about giving and attendance.
Since you guys have seen fit to publish the deacons' personal information and email addresses I would think it is only appropriate that you provide the same about yourself when you write on here. Most pastors I know throw away anonymous letters and emails so that's probably what's happening here. I can't understand why you wouldn't sign your real name and email address on something you have written.
choice wrote:
"As a community service, I believe that you should post a disclosure in the margin area of your blog."
If I had a clue what you were talking about, I'd consider it. But I don't. Could you clarify?
Thanks,
NBBCOF
stillwaitingandwatching,
Your response to "rm" was well stated. In regard to my personal information, I would like to add. I have seen and witnessed, and there are many within the discussions of this blog also that can say the same, that those with opposing views have been treated horribly. For the sake of my family I have maintained myself to be "Tim - the tool man - Taylor". My wife and my children should not have to be subjected to ridicule, because they have a husband and father that will not compromise his principles. Never the less, should it come to the point, that my identity must be known for my voice to be heard, it will be revealed. Until I feel that it is at that point, I will remain as I am. I assure you that I am no one of any signifigance, just a concerned layman.
rm wrote:
"Since you guys have seen fit to publish the deacons' personal information and email addresses I would think it is only appropriate that you provide the same about yourself when you write on here."
I think I've repeated this ad nauseum, but once again, "we guys" are not "savingbellevue.com." The deacons' e-mail addresses are on that site, not this one. "We" didn't publish the "infamous" photo, and "we" didn't coin the phrase "showdown." "They" are not "we," nor "we" "they." Do "we" all have that straight now?
As for the second part of what you wrote (which you've repeated ad nauseum), ditto what Tim said. I could call myself "Little Mary Sunshine," for what it's worth -- which isn't much since you wouldn't know me from Adam anyway, nor would you know if I was signing my "real" name or not. Actually, I think I've forgotten my real name!
This forum was set up (by myself, but it's not about me) to provide a place where people can come and discuss the issues facing BBC in a civil and respectful manner and can maintain their anonymity at the same time. All that's required is that everyone register with a unique screen name which avoids the confusion of having more than one "anonymous" person post comments. As "blogmaster" I have no idea who anyone is. The only information I get from the site meter is the cities visitors are surfing from, and even that doesn't tell me where any specific person is. It's simply a list of the most recent locations from which people viewed the site, not who they were (by name or screen name). All it would tell me is, for example, we've had 12 people surfing from Memphis, 2 from Cordova, 1 from Germantown, 1 from Podunk, Alabama, etc. It doesn't give me any other personal information, but even if it did, I wouldn't care about that or divulge anyone's personal information. As someone said, this is about ideas and issues, not personalities.
Everyone, please don't let choice's information make you afraid to post. All that tells you is the city someone is posting from, not your street address or name. Everyone is safe posting here as well as e-mailing me at the address on my profile page.
Is this the appropriate disclaimer?
NBBCOF
NBBCOF,
You left out that NBBCOF is alais NASS and also that "Mike Bratton" is "Mike Bratton". Beyond that I think that covers it.
I am simply amazed at this entire thread and that it was even started in the first place. Bellevue does so much through Missions. MUCH more than most churches. I just do not get your point about Lottie Moon offering. That is all that many churches can do and that is great. Bellevue can give to them and MUCH more and that is what we do. Bellevue chooses to give most of their missions money in different ways. We can do things most churches cannot. We are very blessed.
I have no idea why anyone would want to raise false doubts that would possibly keep someone from giving to the 2006 Love offering.
HisServant,
False doubts would imply that there is something that is not true. Would you care to elaborate?
stillwaitingandwatching said...
Thank you, Tim.
I would also like to add, I know Mike Bratton personally. He knows who the real person behind the name is as well. If he is talking to those who are anonymous with this "tone" why would I allow myself to be spoken to in this way in person? Sorry, I am not a glutton for punishment.
11:56 AM, November 13, 2006
Apologies for the lateness of the reply.
No, in truth I don't know the secret identity of anyone posting under a fake name--and that includes "stillwaitingandwatching," whoever you are.
I've known Karen for a long time, and Derrick Calcote as well. But I have yet to know any in the ranks of the psuedonymous; "still," if you know me at all you know this "tone" business isn't based in fact, but is merely a diversion.
--Mike
choice,
The example you referred to on the OLD BBCOF about being able to identify someone's employer was a result of the old BBCOF blogmaster, God rest his soul, not changing the settings in sitemeter.com from public viewing to private. I reset those options immediately upon signing into their site and setting up the meter on this blog. Therefore, I and only I can view that information. Even then it doesn't tell me who works for FedEx, for example. I don't know anyone who works for FedEx or where anyone else works, so it doesn't matter. Again, all I see is a list of recent visitors to the site and the cities they're in. I have no way of matching up any visitor on that list with a screen name.
So EVERYONE, you're perfectly secure visiting and posting here. No one's personal information is in jeopardy. Please continue as usual... well, maybe tone it down a bit, if you get my drift, but don't worry about your "cover" being blown. You're still identified only by your screen name and whether or not you choose to sign your real name -- which nobody is being asked to do... at least not by me.
I am a new blogger. I decided to joint in because I do have concerns about our church and about the direction our church is heading. I am a Bellevue member. I am simple going to voice my concerns and opinions on certain issues. I am not asking anyone to reply to my posting. I just want Bellevue members to know of these concerns. I will began posting my concerns in the coming days. I am not going to be critical, but just to voice my concerns. Thank You.
jchking,
Ditto what "choice" said!
My concern No. 1;
Is a Prayer House or building really needed? I know that God is everywhere, and I can talk to him anytime, anywhere. I can talk to him in my house, in my car, in my bathroom, or wherever I am. My thought is that the money that we are planning to use to build this building is maybe better to be spent on direct ministries, and on mission fields. People in third world countries can save souls in their hut churches. In my opinion, the millions of dollars to be spent to build this Prayer building, in turn, can be used to send many thousands of Bellevue members who wanted to go to these third world countries to build hut churches for the local villages to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ. Many members would have gone if they are given the air tickets to go. Let's say the air ticket and expenses for a 10 days mission trip cost $3,000.00 to Africa, then the estimated $3,000,000.00 budget for this building can be used to send 1,000 members into 1,000 different villages and build 1,000 hut churches. Just say each hut church will result to save 100 souls, this means 100,000 souls will be saved as a total. Over time, the numbers of soul saved will be multiplied. In my opinion, the money is better spent to save souls than to have a nice building so that we can go and pray once a while when we feel like to pray. I hope this do make sense, but this is just my opinion about the Prayer building.
Does anyone have an opinion on the 25,000.00 that Bellevue recently gave to the First United Methodist Church of Memphis? They are pro-abortion and pro-homosexual. I'm sure their pastor, Rev. Martha B. Wagley appreciated our financial support. If you have questions, ask Phil Weatherwax about it. He delivered the check!
I agree with SW&W that there should have been a gift (a real love offering) from those that want to give, not just a check from our "stash". It probably would have been more money too. I understand why some would want to give to this, but we didn't have a choice. I thought our church stood against many of the things this church stands for. What's going on? I would have been upset over this even if all of the other things weren't going on.
You said it much better than I could have SW&W!
stumblingservant,
I agree with youthmom and SW&W - this was a personal choice by Steve Gaines; it was never presented to the church and that is wrong. We just gave for our 2006 Love Offering (well, I didn't)with money being designated for IMPACT ministries, Moriah House is being built; just 2 examples of projects that BBC has a vested interest in. Why was this gift to the Methodist Church not brought up for approval to the congregation? I might have given freely for the humanitarian aspect of things. But not having that option really makes me wonder how the rest of our money is being spent without our consent.
Tell me, how much money does 'long-range planning' cost. How many millions does it take to plan? Sounds like a gimmick to me...
Averagejoe,
I think this question could probably be answered best by deacon Jeff Arnold, Fisher and Arnold Engineering of Memphis. I believe he's on the committee and since he has an engineering and planning company he should be able to assist you in how much planning should cost.
Martin Luther refers to Matthew 18
Address to the Christian Nobility
of the German Nation
(1520)
The Romanists have, with great adroitness, drawn three walls round themselves, with which they have hitherto protected themselves, so that no one could reform them, whereby all Christendom has fallen terribly.
First, if pressed by the temporal power, they have affirmed and maintained that the temporal power has no jurisdiction over them, but, on the contrary, that the spiritual power is above the temporal.
Secondly, if it were proposed to admonish them with the Scriptures, they objected that no one may interpret the Scriptures but the Pope.
Thirdly, if they are threatened with a council, they pretend that no one may call a council but the Pope ...
Now may God help us, and give us one of those trumpets that overthrew the walls of Jericho, so that we may blow down these walls of straw and paper, and that we may set free our Christian rods for the chastisement of sin, and expose the craft and deceit of the devil, so that we may amend ourselves by punishment and again obtain God's favour.
.... The third wall falls of itself, as soon as the first two have fallen; for if the Pope acts contrary to the Scriptures, we are bound to stand by the Scriptures to punish and to constrain him, according to Christ's commandment . 'tell it unto the Church' (Matt. xviii. 15-17). . . . If then I am to accuse him before the Church, I must collect the Church together. . . .Therefore when need requires, and the Pope is a cause of offence to Christendom, in these cases whoever can best do so, as a faithful member of the whole body, must do what he can to procure a true free council.
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