The following letter was written by deacon chairman Chuck Taylor to the deacons:
Brothers,
At the conclusion of our Deacons meeting that followed the evening service, all who were present unanimously approved the following motion:
"The 2006 active Deacon Body of Bellevue Baptist Church met November 5th after the evening service and unanimously approved the following motion. We the active Deacon Body of Bellevue Baptist Church wish to convey to our Church family our affirmation of Dr. Steve Gaines as God’s appointed and God’s anointed Pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church. We commit ourselves before God and our Church family to serve with loyalty under his leadership and to free him up to do the work to which God has called him to do. We publicly demonstrate our loyalty to Pastor Gaines by signing our name to this motion and standing before the Church congregation in each of the morning worship services on November 19, 2006."
Over the next few days, each Vice Chairman will be calling the men in their group to go over the motion and answer any questions. The motion requires each Deacon to sign his name to the motion indicating his public approval of the motion, so please go to the Events Registration Center to sign it. If you have any reservations in signing this motion, please discuss it with your Vice Chairman. I want to reiterate that every Deacon that was present in the Deacons meeting following the service unanimously approved this motion, with the understanding they were to sign it and to stand before the congregation on November 19th. Our congregation needs to know where the Deacons stand during these challenging days.
Chuck
Interesting article: Preacher Rule According to the Scriptures
What do you think of this?
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127 comments:
Chuck Taylor wrote in the letter:
"Our congregation needs to know where the Deacons stand during these challenging days."
Yes, Mr. Taylor, we do. And we'd like to hear it from them.
NASS
Does any of this sound familiar?
Be sure to read the letter from pastor Micah Davidson about halfway down that page.
And there are comments here.
Am I the only one who finds it just a little spooky that the name of the church was "Gardendale"?
NASS
CONCERNING THE PLEDGE OF ALLIEGIENCE TO THE PASTOR
I know that there a few deacons who read these post daily, perhaps more than I am aware of.
Your alliegience belongs to no man. Your alliegience belongs to Christ and his church. There is absolutely no Biblical mandate that require or supports such a pledge.
The apostle Paul when faced with those that wanted pledge as his followers told them directly that Apollos planted and Paul watered but God provided the increase. It was also Paul that told the church follow me as I follow Christ. If Paul would not accept the alliegience of followers then by what right does Dr. Gaines have to do so.
I WILL PERSONALLY CONSIDER THIS AS HIGH TREASON AGAINST THE THRONE OF GOD, JESUS CHRIST AND HIS CHURCH.
I ALSO WILL CONSIDER THAT OUR CONGREGATION NEEDS TO BE IMMEDIATELY CALLED INTO A BUSINESS MEETING, DISMISS ANY DEACONS WHO SWEAR THERE ALLIEGIENCE TO ANYONE OTHER THAN CHRIST JESUS AND BEGIN REPLACING THEM WITH GODLY, GOD FEARING MEN.
THIS IS WRONG. FLAT WRONG. BLATANTLY WRONG. AND ABSOLUTELY UNBELIEVABLE THAT IT WAS APPROVED BY OUR DEACON BODY.
WHEN THE CHURCH IS NO LONGER STRIVES TO BE A REFLECTION OF CHRIST, THEN THE CHURCH NO LONGER HAS A PURPOSE FOR EXSISTENCE.
THESE ARE DESPERATE TIMES.
This is the kind of thing you expect Catholics to do for the Pope.
I'm shocked anyone would even consider something lke this, much less sign it.
Interesting to note that "...every deacon that was present in the Deacons meeting..." unanimously approved the motion.
I wonder what percentage of the entire deacon body was present? I also wonder how the "vote" was taken. Voice? Individual? "All those opposed?"
Re the deacon body. How does something without a backbone stand?
NASS
"Saving Bellevue" is done.
You may stick a fork in the group.
If you men and women are in a mood to criticize a group of people, come read this morning's article at my place, and note the accompanying photo, straight from the pages of savingbellevue.com (before it vanished).
Your responses (or lack thereof) will be telling.
--Mike
Mike,
What are you talking about - what photo? I'm not being confrontational; I really want to know.
What happens to the deacons that didn't sign this pledge?
Karen
bellevuefoundationhelp,
Bob Dawkins is in charge of the Bellevue Foundation.
I don't know the answers to your other questions. Go to the other thread on the blog - there's a form you can download to get that question answered. Go the the meeting on Sunday morning and see if they'll answer your question.
Karen
Mike,
I don't need to read your article to know which photo you're talking about. I think it was in poor taste and told them so in no uncertain terms. We're all prone to the occasional lapse in judgement, and this was a definite lapse in judgement, a big one at that, or perhaps you could say it was "a mistake of the mind but not of the heart."
The point was being made (firsthand knowledge) that Steve Gaines is acting like a dictator. I can't argue with that, but I wouldn't have used a photo like that to illustrate my point.
Tell me, though, how is that any different from Steve Gaines standing in the pulpit and calling those members of his own flock with whom he disagrees "devils," "adversaries," and "witches"? I can provide the references for those if you're interested, but just go listen to the Sunday evening sermons from 9/24, 10/8, and 10/22. Also, the beginning of the 10/8 morning sermon. It doesn't justify publishing that photo, but I don't see any difference.
As "whatif..." just reminded everyone, this forum and the savingbellevue site are not affiliated other than through mutual links on the two pages. "We" don't control what's posted there, and "they" don't control what's posted here.
NBBCOF
A must read.
Just a request, please. This particular thread is being linked to from another site and needs to stay "on topic" as much as possible. While the BF questions are interesting and no doubt legitimate, would you mind taking any discussion of that topic to the "New Financial Thread"?
Thank you for your cooperation!
NBBCOF
"But what about..."
"But what about..."
No.
No answer is satisfactory, no attempt at mutuality enough. Committees and sub-committees form, but the public flaying continues.
Why, Steve Gaines is a dictator!
Why, they're demanding loyalty oaths!
Nonsense.
Tell me, though, how is that any different from Steve Gaines standing in the pulpit and calling those members of his own flock with whom he disagrees "devils," "adversaries," and "witches"?
Did he name names? Get all specific and such? Or did he decry the mindset?
It doesn't justify publishing that photo, but I don't see any difference.
Then more's the pity, because the difference is gaping. As with the movie Flags Of Our Fathers, sometimes one photo can capture a mindset--in this case, the mindset of the "saving Bellevue" types.
They're done.
And Forum regulars such as yourselves should be the first ones to tell them that enough, frankly, is enough.
--Mike
IT BECAME YEA, YEA
OTHERWISE LEAVE.
First Deacons sign allegiance, who is next, BFC teachers, Members?
Yes. That is the purpose driven model. Everyone has to sign a covenant or "membership agreement" and abide by the rules.
Sunday School teachers will be the next group required to swear an oath of allegience to Dr. Gaines.
Forget about business meetings. We will probably not see one for a long time. If we do they will ignore Robert's Rules, set the agenda and not allow any questions or motions from the floor.
Accept and move on or leave seems to be the order of the day.
So Tired,
We are all tired of this and I agree that there are issues that should be dealt with immediately. The only reason that most of us can see is that there is something they do not want known. If you listen to Steve Gaines when he speaks about these issues, (especially at Union City)he has been stumbling all over himself. He knows that if we find out the truth about him and all this mess, he will be shamed. There is WAY too much smoke for no fire.
I was told by a DEACON that most of the deacons actually left before the meeting adjourned. The ones that left were told that they had to sign the "covenant" of support. This is blasphemy! If the deacons who are NOT in support of this do not make a stand on Nov 19th as well, we are in bigger trouble than we ever knew existed.
There was chastisement over a walkout that was suggested, yet Steve Gaines promotes such division in a worship service and the leadership and the deacons (those who are blindly following the leader)are allowing this charade, farce and unmitigated act of intimidation to go forth.
I am afraid that the lightening will strike!
Correction of this paragraph from the previous post:
"I was told by a DEACON that most of the deacons actually left before the meeting adjourned. The ones that WERE left were told that they had to sign the "covenant" of support"
Choice,
This is where the "rubber meets the road" and I would gladly sign it! Any Deacon who wouldn't needs to step down, likewise, any deacon who signs their allegiance to a mortal man, needs to step down as well.
All I can say to these Deacons is:
"Think, Man, Think!!!"
choice,
You've got the right idea, but perhaps a little more editing is in order.
Try this:
"We, the active Deacon Body of Bellevue Baptist Church, wish to convey to our Church family our affirmation of Jesus Christ as God’s One and Only Appointed and Annointed Shepherd of Bellevue Baptist Church and pledge our allegiance to no man. We commit ourselves before God and our Church family to serve with loyalty under His Divine leadership and to prayerfully and Scripturally hold ourselves and our leaders accountable to God. We publicly demonstrate our loyalty to Jesus Christ by signing our name to this motion and standing before the Church congregation in each of the morning worship services on November 19, 2006.
"Over the next few days, each member of Bellevue will be calling and emailing the deacons whose last name starts with the same letter as their own to go over the motion and answer any questions. The motion requires each Deacon to sign his name to the motion indicating his public approval of the motion, so please sign this and turn it in to the Events Registration Center. If you have any reservations in signing this motion, please discuss it with Jesus. If after prayerful consideration you decide you should not sign this resolution, you will be removed from your position as a deacon at Bellevue Baptist Church and offered Christian counseling as it would appear you are in need of an attitude adjustment. I want to reiterate that every Deacon that was present in the Deacons meeting following the service, in his heart, should have unanimously approved this alternative motion, with the understanding he was to sign it and to stand before the congregation on November 19th. Our congregation needs to know where the Deacons stand during these challenging days."
crrv,
Yes, people are outraged by the posting you are referring to; however, the post is down (except for Mike's website since he prefers to keep the controversy alive). Most of us on this forum prefer not to visit and/or participate on Mike's forum, for various reasons. It is somewhat disingenuous of you to criticize the posters on this blog for not criticizing something most of them have not even seen. The post is gone. It was in bad taste. Let it go...
Mike, you seem to not understand that there are not "folks" who run the web site. Only one person is responsible for what shows up on the web site as far as I know and I've had several issues with things there. You are misinformed if you think that site has the "stamp of approval" of all concerned.
This "loyalty oath" is senseless. I haven't heard anybody that I can recall say Steve Gaines is not God's appointed man for Bellevue; however, that doesn't mean he is above being questioned about any actions he may take as pastor.
This is the equivalent of political grandstanding and shows to me that the pastor and deacons have no intention of addressing any other issues, nor do they care about those with concerns, regardless of what they may say.
I also find it interesting that to date all we have heard from the Rogers family about this is "no comment". While they may desire to stay above the fray, I find their silence deafening.
Ed Thompson
God Bless you, Sister Pam!
Thank you for your eloquent and to the point email. I feel bad for you that your last letter were received and dismissed by so many deacons. That's not a way to act for men that we trust to lead our church.
Jim Jones needed loyalty, didn't he? He demanded it and killed everyone that gave it to him. I'm not saying there's hit out on me or anyone else, but I am scared for my church.
God is in control, but I don't know what He's up to. I'm holding steady, but physically ill over all this.
Have a great day!
Karen
xd9x19 said...
Mike, you seem to not understand that there are not "folks" who run the web site. Only one person is responsible for what shows up on the web site as far as I know and I've had several issues with things there. You are misinformed if you think that site has the "stamp of approval" of all concerned.
It is the hub of your group's activity, is it not? There are reciprocal links, are there not?
This "loyalty oath" is senseless. I haven't heard anybody that I can recall say Steve Gaines is not God's appointed man for Bellevue; however, that doesn't mean he is above being questioned about any actions he may take as pastor.
Referring to something as a "loyalty oath" when it is not is... well, let's just say it's disingenuous.
This is the equivalent of political grandstanding and shows to me that the pastor and deacons have no intention of addressing any other issues, nor do they care about those with concerns, regardless of what they may say.
Committees and sub-committees devoted to just such things notwithstanding, is that right?
I also find it interesting that to date all we have heard from the Rogers family about this is "no comment". While they may desire to stay above the fray, I find their silence deafening.
The technical term for that is "projection," Ed. When people do not voice an opinion on an issue, the only legitimate inferences possible are that they either do not have an opinion, or have not chosen to publicize it. Since it would, no doubt, be mistaken to presume that the Rogers family would not have an opinion, the only other legitimate option is that they choose not to express it.
Trying to pin a "why" on that is wishful thinking, Ed--sheer projection. Please don't engage in it.
--Mike
Outrage? Not so much.
Cries for public repentance? Not so much.
Accommodating behavior that compares deacons to Fascists? Yes, there's plenty of that, sadly.
The early returns are in, and the response are, indeed, telling. And as I've shared with someone else earlier today, it brings me nothing but sadness to see it.
--Mike
Mike said:
Referring to something as a "loyalty oath" when it is not is... well, let's just say it's disingenuous.
Ah, another dismissive MB post...here, let me try to help you, Mike.
Loyalty
: the quality or state or an instance of being loyal
Loyal
1 : unswerving in allegiance: as in : faithful to a private person to whom fidelity is due.
Oath
1 a (1) : a solemn usually formal calling upon God or a god to witness to the truth of what one says or to witness that one sincerely intends to do what one says (2) : a solemn attestation of the truth or inviolability of one's words b : something (as a promise) corroborated by an oath
"We commit ourselves before God and our Church family to serve with loyalty under his leadership and to free him up to do the work to which God has called him to do. We publicly demonstrate our loyalty to Pastor Gaines by signing our name to this motion..."
I'll let everyone else decide for themselves if the above constitutes a "loyalty oath" or not since you seem to have your own opinion as to that term's validity.
crrv, let me toss out something that has nothing to do with the web site.
Dr. Gaines stood before 4000+ members of BBC on September 24th and admitted to "stepping over an itty-bitty" fence. To illustrate, he bent down and put his hand at knee-level when saying this. Said fence is KNOWN to be 4-4.5 feet high.
So is this:
1) deceitful
2) lying
3) irrelevant
4) truthful
Do we need to post the video?
I do not understand how someone so arrogant as Gaines can possibly think that a list of signatures is going to make any difference in mess. Too bad he doesn't spend as much time trying to solve the problems as he does in creating new ones. This is just another mistake that anyone with wisdom can see through.
I share this with amazement and tears in my eyes...there is a warning here for us all! We must be careful with whom we associate and align ourselves. We must align ourselves with God and His Word alone. Do not look to any man, any group, any cause. We must be willing to stand alone, and through obedience to God, even lay down our lives in devotion to Him. God reigns eternal.
Is the purging, which is an obvious result of not signing the deacon’s resolution, is it from God or man? While God in His permissive will may be allowing it, is it His best for us? Are we acting on our own and forcing God to “work all things together”?
Do not restrict the mysterious and miraculous from God. Do not use human reason. Obey God’s Word. Let the Holy Spirit of God Himself speak loudly to each one of his servants and may he judge in righteousness and remove quickly those who are not of His flock. May His will be done.
In Daniel 6, the officials had evil intention in their heart. They wanted power and were willing to do what it took to get it. They didn’t have anything in particular against Daniel, except, he had what they wanted – the king’s favor.
King Darius lacked wisdom and insight. Perhaps he was blinded by his pride and deafened by their proclamation of loyalty. Whatever his heart, his decision to join them, empowered them. Please hear and understand, I am not assigning guilt, arrogance, evil intent, or any other negative attribute, or positive attribute for that matter, to any person or party of this dire problem. I merely suggest we all listen to the Word of God and ask Him to clearly and loudly speak to us individually. For me, as I read this passage during my morning devotional, a warning came: “be careful with whom you align yourself”.
Am I led by justice, humility and kindness? Is wisdom my guard? Am I obeying the command to love God and man, to forgive quickly, and hold no grudge against another?
Consider…
Dan 6:1-28
1 It seemed good to Darius to appoint 120 satraps over the kingdom, that they should be in charge of the whole kingdom,
2 and over them three commissioners (of whom Daniel was one), that these satraps might be accountable to them, and that the king might not suffer loss.
3 Then this Daniel began distinguishing himself among the commissioners and satraps because he possessed an extraordinary spirit, and the king planned to appoint him over the entire kingdom.
4 Then the commissioners and satraps began trying to find a ground of accusation against Daniel in regard to government affairs; but they could find no ground of accusation or {evidence of} corruption, inasmuch as he was faithful, and no negligence or corruption was {to be} found in him.
5 Then these men said, "We shall not find any ground of accusation against this Daniel unless we find {it} against him with regard to the law of his God."
6 Then these commissioners and satraps came by agreement to the king and spoke to him as follows: "King Darius, live forever!
7 "All the commissioners of the kingdom, the prefects and the satraps, the high officials and the governors have consulted together that the king should establish a statute and enforce an injunction that anyone who makes a petition to any god or man besides you, O king, for thirty days, shall be cast into the lions' den.
8 "Now, O king, establish the injunction and sign the document so that it may not be changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which may not be revoked."
9 Therefore King Darius signed the document, that is, the injunction.
10 Now when Daniel knew that the document was signed, he entered his house (now in his roof chamber he had windows open toward Jerusalem); and he continued kneeling on his knees three times a day, praying and giving thanks before his God, as he had been doing previously.
11 Then these men came by agreement and found Daniel making petition and supplication before his God.
12 Then they approached and spoke before the king about the king's injunction, "Did you not sign an injunction that any man who makes a petition to any god or man besides you, O king, for thirty days, is to be cast into the lions' den?" The king answered and said, "The statement is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which may not be revoked."
13 Then they answered and spoke before the king, "Daniel, who is one of the exiles from Judah, pays no attention to you, O king, or to the injunction which you signed, but keeps making his petition three times a day."
14 Then, as soon as the king heard this statement, he was deeply distressed and set {his} mind on delivering Daniel; and even until sunset he kept exerting himself to rescue him.
15 Then these men came by agreement to the king and said to the king, "Recognize, O king, that it is a law of the Medes and Persians that no injunction or statute which the king establishes may be changed."
16 Then the king gave orders, and Daniel was brought in and cast into the lions' den. The king spoke and said to Daniel, "Your God whom you constantly serve will Himself deliver you."
17 And a stone was brought and laid over the mouth of the den; and the king sealed it with his own signet ring and with the signet rings of his nobles, so that nothing might be changed in regard to Daniel.
18 Then the king went off to his palace and spent the night fasting, and no entertainment was brought before him; and his sleep fled from him.
19 Then the king arose with the dawn, at the break of day, and went in haste to the lions' den.
20 And when he had come near the den to Daniel, he cried out with a troubled voice. The king spoke and said to Daniel, "Daniel, servant of the living God, has your God, whom you constantly serve, been able to deliver you from the lions?"
21 Then Daniel spoke to the king, "O king, live forever!
22 "My God sent His angel and shut the lions' mouths, and they have not harmed me, inasmuch as I was found innocent before Him; and also toward you, O king, I have committed no crime."
23 Then the king was very pleased and gave orders for Daniel to be taken up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no injury whatever was found on him, because he had trusted in his God.
24 The king then gave orders, and they brought those men who had maliciously accused Daniel, and they cast them, their children, and their wives into the lions' den; and they had not reached the bottom of the den before the lions overpowered them and crushed all their bones.
25 Then Darius the king wrote to all the peoples, nations, and {men of every} language who were living in all the land: "May your peace abound!
26 "I make a decree that in all the dominion of my kingdom men are to fear and tremble before the God of Daniel; for He is the living God and enduring forever, and His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed, and His dominion {will be} forever.
27 "He delivers and rescues and performs signs and wonders in heaven and on earth, who has {also} delivered Daniel from the power of the lions."
28 So this Daniel enjoyed success in the reign of Darius and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian.
(NAS)
Something occurred to me this morning…this whole mess has had my life consumed for the last several weeks. What occurred to me is the simple question…why? The simple truth of the matter is….God doesn’t “need” me, Steve Gaines, you, Bellevue Baptist Church…or for that matter, the whole SBC. The very fact that any of these even EXIST is due to nothing more than the sheer condescending grace of Almighty God…what could any of those in that list possibly ADD to God? I’m quite certain of one thing….His kingdom was advancing before Bellevue was a thought in anyone’s head…or you or I or anyone else were even a twinkle in our daddies’ eyes, and if tomorrow all of us and Bellevue Baptist church disappeared from the earth and became nothing but a byword, His kingdom will still advance. God has and will always have a faithful remnant, preserved by His OWN power. I came to Bellevue looking for stability in a church, and one that had a singles department to meet my particular “needs”. Now I see I made the same fatal error Israel did when they cried out for a king like the other nations had…and boy howdy did God ever give them one….in spades. As I see it the real choices here are simple….for those who feel that Bellevue is going the way of Balaam…find a part of that faithful remnant and worship and serve there…for those who are of the “my pastor right or wrong” group, or who are convinced that Dr Gaines is the “appointed, anointed” man of God’s choosing…then by all means stay and have him…worship at his feet…hang on his every word…build a shrine to him if you want…do whatever you think God would want you to do….all I want is a church that worships God alone….not the pastor, not the programs, not the “worship” itself, or the church and all it’s trappings. Lord, help us to see that YOU and your GLORY alone are all that matters.
For what it is worth, I would like to submit the perspective of an outsider.
I know that the internet, blogs, and emails, etc. offer a convenient and practical way to communicate. I realize that it seems to be the most expeditious method for getting answers to your questions, and I realize that the lack of disclosure of information is the basis of many church members' frustration. Seemingly, this ongoing public internet conversation is the solution to your problems, but I think it is actually exacerbating your pain.
This blog (and the other blogs that came before it), the savingbellevue website, the youtube video, the audio files, the emails, etc. are all being made available to any internet spectator -- me, for example. Do you really want this? Let's suppose that your church leaders are all as shady and suspicious as many of you are suspecting. Do you really want that to be broadcast around the Baptist Convention, around the nation, or even the globe?
Love covers sin. Love also hopes for the best. It doesn't sweep sin under the rug, or let it fester. If sin is present in the body, love addresses sin with confrontation, for the good of the offender. It lovingly corrects error. But love does not broadcast sin. Whether your pastor and leaders are righteous or unrighteous, the way they are being treated by you, their flock, is unloving. Your specualtions and gossip are harmful to his reputation, and to your own reputations.
Moreover, the comments that are being posted and the emails that are being published are not in a temperament that manifests an aroma of Christ. Most of what I am reading is not kind or humble. These words are laced with bitterness, suspicion, covetousness, pride, selfish ambition, and sarcasm. Is this the reputation that you want to achieve for your church or your Christ that you claim to love?? You may feel that you are defending the truth, but in my humble opinion, you are shaming yourselves. I wouldn't want to associate myself with a church that is biting and devouring itself to death.
You can cast the blame on your leaders, and you can point your fingers at their mistakes, but you could also do well to step back and examine yourselves. Let all bitterness wrath and clamor be put away from you. Crucify your flesh and its desires. Spend the time you might have spent reading these comments or writing these comments and devote yourselves to prayer instead.
ScaredOfTheTruth? said... I'll let everyone else decide for themselves if the above constitutes a "loyalty oath" or not since you seem to have your own opinion as to that term's validity.
Thing of it is, whoever you are, either a thing is or it isn't. (Try saying that three times fast.) Opinions don't fly here. Either the statement of affirmation is a loyalty oath to Pastor Gaines, or it isn't; since it isn't, to say otherwise is wrong.
SundayNov19 said...
Mike, FYI... we understand the meaning of loyal. For those who don't, have a dictionary so we don't need the difinations.
I believe we {deacons} know the contex the pastor is using the term.
I take it, then, that you're another deacon who just can't bring himself to sign his name?
And, last I checked, it was Chuck Taylor's letter, not Pastor Gaines'.
Sunday Novenber 19, 2006 pledge does not line up with scripture...
In what way? Because it reaffirms the standard job description of a deacon as someone who supports his pastor and frees him to do other work? Because it acknowledges that God is in control of filling a pastorate? What, precisely, "does not line up"?
--Mike
Truth Hunter said...
Gnats,
It takes actual evidence to squash allegations. No evidence has been presented.
The pastor's word is not evidence of anything. Same goes for reports from Chip Freeman, Chuck Taylor and Harry Smith.
Have you stopped beating your spouse/parent/child/pet? (Your pseudonym precludes my being more specific, unfortunately.) I haven't seen any evidence that you haven't stopped.
Remember, your word isn't evidence of anything. I demand to see hard evidence that your spouse/parent/child/pet is recovering from the vicious beatings you've administered, and that you've ceased administering them. We need actual evidence to squash those nasty allegations.
--Mike
A bit of a sham resolution. A prerequisite for it being legitimate is for everyone to sign it. So to achieve the prerequisite it needs, the resolution demands its prerequisite. In other words, the text requires everyone to sign it so that it can require everyone to sign it.
This is like passing a law that says "Under this law that is signed by everyone, everyone must sign this law."
Deacons, if you're going to stand for your convictions, now is the time. The choice is upon you, whether you have wanted to take a side or not.
As of November 19, complacent assent will equal capitulation and compromise of conviction. Stand strong men--you are priests and kings. It's time to act accordingly.
Josh
CRRV said... And then we have the outrageous example of accusing someone of beating children and/or wife/husband.
Just to be clear, I was making a point, not an accusation. I would've thought that using the term "spouse/parent/child/pet" would've made that clear. Consequently, I apologize for being less then transparent.
--Mike
If everybody commenting on this blog is a member of Bellevue, then I am saddened to call myself a member there as well. The love of Christ is not being shown through anybodies comments (no matter what side they are on). I am away at college right now, and it pains me to see the body of Christ acting this way. Why is there a new accusation against Pastor Steve and the deacons of Bellevue every day? Does anybody in this blog have time to share the Gospel with others amidst all of the bickering or are you too wrapped up in this saddening issue? I don't understand why you would be a member of a church, but not trust the words of the pastor that is over you. I will unashamedly say that I have gotten to spend some quality time with the pastor over the last few months and love him to death. He is a man of God that I trust because the Lord has placed him in a leadership role at our church. I have told myself I would not get involved again with this blog but the hatred expressed by both sides of the issue saddens me to the point of tears. So this is my last response in hopes that you would search your hearts and see that this is not pleasing to the Lord!
disciple of Jesus Christ,
Kevin Furniss
crrv,
You said, "Then when I objected and suggested that we all rise up and demand accountability for such a disturbing posting I was told to leave and go start my own blog by someone objecting to Gaines telling them to leave bellevue and find another church."
You also said that you do not go to Bellevue and never will; therefore, with all due respect, you are not a part of "we." This forum is "open" for all who want to come here and discuss things in a civil, respectful manner. Numerous people like mkw and Derrick have posted opinions similar to yours but have done so in a respectful, thoughtful manner. You have made numerous contentious comments in this forum this afternoon, all of which say basically the same thing. It's getting old, and the next "you're a bunch of hypocrites" post I see from you is going to be deleted. And if you post another one in that vein after that, it'll be deleted, too. Enough is enough already! Same for Mike Bratton and gnats. I'm tired of your venomous attacks. Next one's outta here! I hate to sound like a first grade school teacher scolding the class, but you're acting like a bunch of children and need to be treated as such.
And just for the record, I saw that photo last night and was appalled as well. I wrote the web master of that site and asked if he'd please take it down and left a comment in this forum at 9:46 this morning expressing my displeasure that something like that was posted. Perhaps you missed it. And also just so you'll know, I did write him again this morning and asked if he'd consider issuing an apology. I've received no reply, nor does he owe me one. It's up to him what he does.
NBBCOF
In defense of bbcopenforum,
I have not been subjected to near the critism, that has been dumped at their feet. Nor have I had the responsibility to try and maintain the civility of the blog. It is a difficult task and I am grateful that they have taken it on.
Josh,
I stated that it was odd that this picture suddenly apppeared and disappeared. Perhaps you can explain why the "comment deleted" are gone from the blog as well as the comment itself. Someone other than a 12 year old knew what they were doing. Secondly I appreciate that you say the mother had left her name, if it is there I have not seen it. Indeed, where is it? Fact not Ficition.
I indeed have seen items on Mr. Haywood's site that I did not agree with nor did I think that they were appropriate. However, since the "fedupwthis" was not the work of a 12 year old, then who do you presume that it was. It is odd to me, perhaps not to you, but I do have a right to my opinion as you do to yours.
Finally concerning, stumblingservant, I agree with him, why on earth wouldn't our deacons behave like grown men and yes, it is an embarassment.
To the Bellevue leadership:
Only YOU can restore YOUR integrity!
Only do those things which restore trust.
Humble yourselves and stop presenting yourselves as a force of opposition.
Steve: humble yourself, confess your shortcomings, admit the wrongs you are responsible for - (little bitty fence? your kids and Wednesday nite yet still you're gone), be gentle, make a public invitation to meet with your accusers that they can't refuse, deal quickly with rumor and speculation, eliminate "leaders" around you that are making the situation worse, get to know the people you are responsible for, "slow down", do ALL you can do to make right what is wrong and get along with your new family. I do love you - see you Sunday.
To all:
There are bullies harming the bride of Christ and you had better get right or get ready for the groom.
Who are you?
Fellow Bellevue Members: This is getting very nasty. I am troubled when someone posts an opinion, they are challenged. I have had my encoutners with Mike in the past. I firmly believe Mike is a fellow saint in Christ. True he can be sharp pointed but Praise the Lord that He made us different. We serve a great God. That is what makes Bellevue so awesome. I do have questions and concerns but instead of posting them here I have decided to take to the One that counts. Now let me ask this, let's say the rapture is in the next moment. How are we going to respond to Him when He asks what have we been doing for Him? Think before attacking some that we do not agree with. Remember these folks that are posting, we are going to be spending eternity with them. Please lets love each other.
Dear brothers in Christ,
It really pains me to say this, but I have had this incredibly strong impression since this all started. Over the course of reading personal accounts and first hand experiences, this impression has become stronger and more honed. Please don't think that I am being frivolous with what I am about to say. And please know that I am not saying this for shock value or even to offend anybody. But here goes. The one impression I get from the intimidation tactics and the double-speak of Pastor Gains is that which we saw from former President Clinton. Clinton had a knack of looking straight into the eyes of the American people and flat out lie to us. He could also intimidate people very easily. The episode of Gains putting his arm around a brother/deacon (?) and telling him, "This never happened" really hits home. Clinton also fired those who would not play along. As a matter of fact, he destroyed countless of people who didn't "drink the Kool-Aid." I'm sure I could go into many more similarities. But we get the picture.
Again, I'm sorry to offend many or all of you by this. But so much has come out that makes me ask, "How can Gains do these things, behave this way toward his brothers and sisters in Christ and continue to preach the word of God? Does he not fear God???" He cannot be oblivious to his actions. I believe that like Clinton, Gains knows what he is doing and has become calculating. This pains me to say because I was also there when we "voted" him in and when our dear Pastor Rogers washed his feet and handed over the "reins," so to speak.
Disclaimer: I know Clinton had other scandalous sins, which hurt our country. We all know what I am referring to. I only mention this because in making similarities between Gains and Clinton, I don't wish anybody to conclude that I am suggesting Gains has also taken this particular path or committed these particular sins. I have no knowledge of anything like this from Gains. I make no such insinuations. Please don't take my words out of context to suggest that I have made any such insinuations. The similarities I make concern his ability to deceive and intimidate. I would only add that Gains also seems to need the rush of power since he has abused his position.
God bless us as we fight for our Bellevue. I know it really belongs to Christ Jesus, our Lord and Savior. But Bellevue is our home. The Lord has blessed us here. The Lord has allowed us to love and grow here. I pray we can recover our church and God will restore and correct where needed.
In Christ,
Ana.
David,
I have indeed have taken my questions before the throne of God and have done so boldy because of the blood of Jesus Christ.
I have been convicted, however, that I should not only pray. I appreciate your convictions as I am sure you will appreciate mine.
choice_is_yours said...
Mike Bratton,
I'm going to start a prayer for Sister Pam.
Choice, I appreciate that. Since this business was taken to the Internet, I've been praying for everyone involved, even the anonymous folks. God knows who they are, even if no one else does, and He knows best how to address the needs of each individual.
SundayNov19 said... Next, I would like to ask Mike Bratton a fair question. Why are you not on the Deacon Board??
I'm not on the Deacon Board because I'm not a deacon.
Truth Hunter said... MB, You think that nonsense about beating my wife is cute, but your analogy doesn't work. In this instance, actual proof is available. There is no need to take anyone's word for it.
No, actually I think that analogy is horrible. However, its hyperbolic nature matches with the running accusations made against members of Bellevue's staff and lay leadership.
Please work on your arguments and get back to me. You are smarter than that.
I appreciate the compliment regarding my intelligence, but you'll forgive me for not taking debate tips from you.
I will not be bullied by your rhetoric.
Branding that with which you do not agree never facilitates dialogue.
tim said... Dr. Gaines was not truthful in telling us the reasons that he did not preach on Wednesday nights. PERIOD. It was not a mistake of the mind but of the heart. It was flat out, blatant deceit.
How long does it take you to prepare a message, Tim?
New BBC Open Forum said... Same for Mike Bratton and gnats. I'm tired of your venomous attacks. Next one's outta here! I hate to sound like a first grade school teacher scolding the class, but you're acting like a bunch of children and need to be treated as such.
Again and again I ask for quotes to back up spurious allegations of "venomous attacks," and I still can't get one. Did you "sound like a first grade teacher" when you told the savingbellevue.com contingent how "venomous" their attack was, or was your tone more collegial?
And has it crossed your mind that comparing those with whom you disagree to children, instead of actually engaging in discussion and debate, reinforces the notion that you as a group are interested in neither discussion nor debate?
The "next one's outta here" business isn't surprising, but keep in mind that when (and if) you do follow through with your belligerency, your forum can no longer be legitimately referred to as either "New" (since you will be employing the same tactics used on the old board) or "Open" (for obvious reasons).
Josh Tucker said... Bratton and Gnats are verbally sharp and pointed in their posts, but calling their posts venemous is neither a fair nor well balanced perspective. Equally harsh posts by individuals who have similar views to yourself have neither been condemned nor threatened with censure.
StumblingServant said... Pledges? Alliegences? WHAT? Is this a bunch of GROWN MEN or a kid's club. When do they get the secret password and the super-secret decoder rings? I am so embarassed by this bunch of deacons.
Josh Tucker said...
NBBCOF,
^ Case in point.
Thank you for the timely and succinct observation, Josh.
--Mike
momandmember,
Then I owe you an apology, along with what I thought was quite an odd coincidence concerning MB's blog site.
As you can see from my communications with your daughter I was as kind and civil as could be. I tried as well to explain what was going on here and relate to her as much as possible.
My apologies to MB as well.
Your problem people is Steve Gaines - and only Steve Gaines, PERIOD! Quit dancing around it and making excuses for him and his group of supporters who appear too dumb to know what Gaines is doing. He is a dishonest preacher without integrity whatsoever! But, he is a good talker, puts on such great sermons, none which include him.
Quit whining to each other. Stop quoting Bible verses to show off your Bible knowledge and that you are above all of this terrible nitpicking stuff. You are not solving anything. Spend some energy and brain power to see how to GET RID OF GAINES AND THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED. How much clearer does God have to show you the enourmous cancer Gaines is spreading. Pluck it out. Stand up to him in numbers and tell him to hit the road. He is not God's man. He was thrown in you face by the search comittee. And, because they made a lousy choice and forced it upon the church that same comittee is now protecting and shielding Gaines. God expects you to do more than just sit there and whine. He expects for you to see the obvious and act upon it. If you don't God will tear down Bellevue. It has become an abomination and in the very near future there might just stand a truck stop and parking lot on Appling Road in place of Bellevue Baptist Church.
I refuse to address Gaines as Dr. or Pastor, so don't lecture me. Gaines is a slick lying phoney preacher.
Mike Bratton said,
How long does it take you to prepare a message, Tim?
It take long as our sometimes to construct a single sentence, which actually make gould sense. If I wont to spile it write then it take longr.
momandmember,
I appreciate your forgiveness, contrary to what many may believe it is important to me. I will keep your daughter in my prayers.
Ricky,
Support for the pastor is one thing, a demand of alliegience to the pastor by the deacon body is another.
History has proven that men and women of faith have made an everlasting differnce in the church. When wrong exist, especially in the church it must be brought into the light.
Can we and should we follow all pastors, every where at all times? Certainly, not. Should we accept all doctrine, from all faiths? Of course not.
Remaining silent, when you are aware of truth is a sin of ommission.
As for leading the lost to Christ, that is one of the mandates of the faith, but it is not the only one. We are also called to admonish one another to good works and to correct one another.
There have been issues that I have asked for understanding on as well and when given sound Biblical doctrine have readily accepted it.
Finally, I would submit that the same things were said within the SBC at the time that Dr. Rogers sought to restore the infalliality and inerrancy of the scriptures to the Southern Baptist Denomonation.
I have seen a few renditions of the pledge of loyalty and would like to submit another that I believe to be appropriate.
A Pledge of Loyalty to Bellevue Baptist Church
As the Senior Pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church, I Steve Gaines do herby pledge my love to the Body of Christ, which I shepherd at Bellevue Baptist Church. I wish to affirm all members of the church as accepted and loved. I commit myself before God to our Church family to lead in love, humbleness and humility. My desire is to be no respector of persons and to treat all members with loving kindness, always willing to submit myself to the service of Jesus Christ. As my predecessor humbled himself to the washing of my feet, so do I on this day in the year of our Lord 2006 on November 19.
Tim said...
Mike Bratton said,
How long does it take you to prepare a message, Tim?
It take long as our sometimes to construct a single sentence, which actually make gould sense. If I wont to spile it write then it take longr.
Dude, spell-check is your friend.
Seriously, though, I asked for a reason. If you're a pastor who speaks on Sunday mornings and Sunday nights, you have to devote a lot of hours in your work week to developing those messages, right? So where do you pull the time to develop a Wednesday night message as well?
Pastor Gaines (and for those following along, he is your pastor if you're a member of the body of believers known as Bellevue) is, contrary to popular opinion, generally at Bellevue on Wednesday nights--as he's said before. His Wednesdays generally consist of committee meetings, which frees up other time on other days for his family.
If you want to pillory him for it, that's your prerogative. I see someone using the "Hecanhear" feels comfortable enough to say things like (and I quote thusly and like so):
"Quit dancing around it and making excuses for him and his group of supporters who appear too dumb to know what Gaines is doing. He is a dishonest preacher without integrity whatsoever!"
"Stop quoting Bible verses to show off your Bible knowledge and that you are above all of this terrible nitpicking stuff. You are not solving anything. Spend some energy and brain power to see how to GET RID OF GAINES AND THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED." (emphasis in the original)
"How much clearer does God have to show you the enourmous cancer Gaines is spreading. Pluck it out. Stand up to him in numbers and tell him to hit the road. He is not God's man. He was thrown in you face by the search comittee."
"God expects you to do more than just sit there and whine. He expects for you to see the obvious and act upon it. If you don't God will tear down Bellevue. It has become an abomination and in the very near future there might just stand a truck stop and parking lot on Appling Road in place of Bellevue Baptist Church."
"I refuse to address Gaines as Dr. or Pastor, so don't lecture me. Gaines is a slick lying phoney preacher."
Nass, if you're reading along, it's just my opinion, but I'd suggest that one post from "Hecanhear" contained actual, toxic "venom." I can't speak for Gnats, but I know that of the posts I've read, Gnats hasn't gone anywhere near making comments like that about anyone; since I can speak for myself, I know that none of my posts has ventured into "slick lying phoney," he-spread-a-cancer territory.
As I've noted more than once today, your response--and the response of others who read that diatribe--will be revealing.
--Mike
The orchestrating of these dramatic events is very similar to the first "Baptist" church I joined. My whole family was caught up in the hysteria of "protecting our pastor". The "meanspirited" deacons were after him. ( We have alot of friends in the ministry and know that it happens frequently)
He really started preaching to the troublemakers and we were cheering him on. It seemed to be over the music.. then it was over something else simple. Our preacher compaired himself to Stephen and Jesus and every other wronged preacher in the gospel. My family continued to cheer him own, participating in orchrastated standing ovations for his support.
After a year of turmoil, we left and came to Bellevue. What was refreshing was the fact Dr. Rogers never preached the church problems or to them.
The church we left had to ask the pastor to leave as did the seminary where he taught. There was a big problem but he was hiding behiding the little ones.
He left threatning to sue the church in a letter delivered to the members. I think he still had 45% support after the letter. This just supports the idea some people can pledge loyality no matter what.
Please be careful to not take up an offense for anyone. You really never know.
Just to add a not in case any one should think that I am suggesting a literal washing of feet. I am not. It is figurative. Perhaps there could be some other act of humlity that could actually be displayed that would be more illustrative.
To BBC Open Forum
I really think it is time for the Mike Bratton blogs to stop.He is doing nothing but trying to make every one at Bellevue Blog look unchristian and causing turmoil on purpose. It would be best if we as you suggested scrooled by him but other outsiders do read them and connect him with us. He has his own blog... Let him post on it and quiet arguing with every post on this site. Was a great pic of him on the other post by doh :) Check him out... I think I have seen him around..
lwood,
I really think we've seen enough photos for one day.
Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,
I would like to add one more observation to the comment I posted before concerning Gains' behavior. I know this sounds trivial but his nervous laugh makes me nervous. I'm not being facetious. I think it reveals a lot about him when he's speaking and he brings out this nervous tick of his. He does it quite a bit.
I have noticed several times that when he is addressing accusations about is behavior, this nervous tick increases. He will give his "half-answer" then ask the congregation to for an "Amen" response and give off his nervous/frustrated giggle. It's almost as if he is implying that he doesn't want any more questions about that particular subject. His gritting-his-teeth demeanor implies that he is bothered by having to give account and he means to intimidate the congregation into "dropping the subject."
I wonder how much more increased this nervous giggle of his would be if we were allowed to ask questions in an open-mike-type forum at one of our business meeting.
There is another pastor who also has a nervous laugh similar to Gains' tick. This other pastor also mistreats his sheep. I won't get into specifics but suffice it to say, he also giggles like this when he is in similar situations. Others have made this same observation about this other pastor so when I saw it in Gains, it was obvious.
Just a thought....
In Christ,
Ana.
With all due respect, Nope, I disagree with your analogy.
When we pledge allegiance to the US, we reserve the right to disagree with our country and its politicians, including our president - without fear of being punished or kicked out of the country.
We also have a choice to pledge allegiance or not to pledge at all in the first place. If we choose not to, we are still allowed to live and thrive here just the same. Given, we must abide by the law, but abiding by the law doesn't require us to pledge allegiance. It is a choice. And again, if we don't pledge, we won't get fired from our jobs or kicked out of the country.
The difference here is that given Gains' treatment of those who disagree him, it is reasonable to conclude that those deacons who don't sign the pledge will be "fired" or otherwise ousted from their positions. We've already seen other deacons ousted for disagreeing with Gains and/or questioning his behavior and/or decisions.
Likewise, there have been other people who were forced out of the church. Too many have also seen (from Gains and/or from his followers) outward attempts to destroy those who oppose him.
So you see, it's not the same at all.
A.
Oh goodness, the ever-moving target...
gnats, are you referring to my post just above yours?
If so, then you miss my point. You discard the stuff on the web site, but I take more issue with how these issues are being handled, or rather how they are NOT being handled. Can you honestly tell me that there was not a lack of honesty when Dr. Gaines gave his account of the notorious fence incident? One does not "step-over" a 4 foot high fence. I have the same type of fence in my backyard and I can tell you it is neither knee-high nor can one step over it. He who is faithful in the little things will be faithful in the bigger things. If the pastor cannot give an accurate and honest version of something like the fence incident, why should I or anybody else believe that all these other things are just rumors and the accusations of troublemakers?
Why does the church attempt to hide behind non-disclosure agreements with at least one - if not all - former staff member (who did not sign it)? It reeks of cover-up.
Why is the pastor's compensation package such a secret? Why should the church - or more than a handful of deacons - not know at least the range within which the pastor's salary/compensation package falls. The churches that my brother has pastored have known the general range of his salary. If you drop by the Bellevue history exhibit at the church, you will find Dr. Lee's salary of $7500 printed in a Messenger issue back in the church's early days (judging from the other items listed, I doubt this was an "office of the pastor" figure that included his salary).
I and another friend had lunch with a deacon friend and I asked why the two sides are not brought together to get this all over and done with. We were given some completely lame excuse that by not doing so, the pastor was "protecting the church". I wanted to shake this deacon and say, "Why don't you wake up and smell what you're shoveling?"
I think the only thing being protected is those in authority, either staff and/or lay leaders. Why do I think this? Because of the ineptitude with which this situation has been handled up till now, regardless of the merits any of the accusations may have. They're afraid of letting anybody near the church's Pandora's Box for fear of the embarrassment it may cause. If ALL of these issues are nothing but rumors and are so easily dismissed, then there is no sensible reason to not embarrass the accusers with the TRUTH and be done with it.
ET
Sister Pam,
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I have wanted so long for someone with a lot more connections than I to summarize once and for all the concerns many of us have. It's so difficult to sum it all up, but you've done an outstanding job, and I salute you (no, I'm not wearing a black mask). I know I speak for many when I say, please click here.
As for Dr. Gaines claiming he "never" used the credit card, I was there, and he didn't say that. He pulled out a credit card and said, "See, here it is." (My reaction was, "So?") He said he's had a church credit card since he was 30 (again, not sure why that was relevant), and he said he's never used it for anything inappropriate. But he never claimed he hadn't used it at all. It's my understanding the receipts that were reviewed last week were from one of his church credit cards.
NASS
I also express my appreciation my dear Sister Pam.
I sincerely pray that your words of encouragement are so. This has been going on for nearly a year. So few members of the church realize that. I was first made aware about 8 months ago and my heart has been broken.
The Bear Story.
To those wondering,
it can be found in IIKings 2:23-25.
I don't believe that we have called go up bald head however, the man does have hair. We have not mocked him as he has mocked us. The issues are of credibility and integrity.
Yo, MB, you may not be aware that we no longer live in a theocracy, so your "bear story" is of no relevance here.
crrv, it's time to let the picture go! I never saw it and it must have not been up there for long. I did visit the blog of the church's unofficial Minister of Propaganda to view it. Are you not aware that SG associated MS with "Hezbollah"?
As for classifying this as a "Hitler salue", I doubt any Hezbo yahoo is going to salute a dead Nazi. And I can't really tell if that's SG behind the masks or not.
*** begin satire ***
crrv, you may not be familiar enough with this situation to understand this, but MB will - since the brother who posted it has taken it down, maybe he is willing to say, "It was a mistake of the head, not the heart."
*** end satire ***
Ed Thompson
P.S. Sister Pam...excellent "Statement of Issues". May have to 'copy-and-paste' for future reference. Also, you may want to add David Smith to your list of purged former staffers.
My Dear Brother Charles and My Dear Sister Pam,
I am so grieved for you. I am so sorry that this has happened to you both.
I have no idea, what to say to be of comfort to you. I love you both in Jesus.
Tim
crrv,
The picture that was posted was on another web site. There have been countless people that have told you that they in no way, shape form or fashion supported it.
The simple fact of the matter is this. It was done. It was wrong. It has been condemned, by those posting. There are hundreds of things on the internet that I am outraged over, but this site was not activated as a forum for that topic.
We can not devote a blog to Bellevue Baptist Church and then proceed to discuss every thing else that is going on in the world.
Perhaps, you believe me to be uncivil in saying so, but I am not. I am setting forth the fact that this does not direct the concerns of this blog.
Choice, when angels share good news, I agree that they don't have to give their names.
However, anti-Bellevue types aren't angelic in either nature or behavior, so your repeated attempts to excuse anonymous sniping fall short of the mark.
For the folks referencing my article "The Bears," you might have glossed over the part of the story regarding love and concern for those who bear ill will towards the Bellevue senior staff and lay leadership.
Yo, Ed. The Bible is always, one way or another, relevant.
--Mike
I am terribly grieved to learn that Brother Jim Whitmire has been abused. I knew he was pushed out but I didn't know he actually had to endure outright abuse. I cannot express how horrible this is! Can anybody tell me what actually happened during those last days of Brother Whitmire's "retirement" or can anyone at least tell me where I can get that information? Thank you sister Pam for giving me this insight. My husband and I are sick and saddened over this.
In Christ,
A.
crrv wrote:
"new bbc open forum,
I am sorry to see that you think the picture attempting to show Christ's bride as a bunch of terrorists hailing Hitler is funny. It was a subtle remark, yet a telling one. I try not to make light of unrepentant sin. whether it be from a pastor or an accuser.
If you think I thought that photo was funny, you are delusional! Did you not read my two posts in which I stated that not only did I not approve of it (I think the word I used to describe my reaction was "appalled"), I wrote the webmaster of sb.com, a site that neither I nor anyone here is affiliated with, and voiced my disapproval, requested he remove it, and even suggested he consider issuing an apology. I can't make him apologize!
p.s. why is only Gaines' sins worthy of mentioning "ad nauseum"?
Why is a photo published by one person who has nothing to do with this site worth mentioning "ad nauseum"? For heaven's sake, we've covered that! If the webmaster of sb.com issues an apology, maybe you can comment on how disingenuous it seems to you, but until then, I really don't know what more there is to say about it.
I seem to recall you stated earlier that you neither attend nor will ever attend Bellevue. Why, then, if you don't mind my asking, does any of this matter to you in the least?
NASS
Josh,
If this is not news to you, then you should be absolutely ashamed of yourself for not bringing it to the attention of the chruch body.
“There were ninety and nine that safely lay in the shelter of the fold, But one was out on the hills away, Far off from the gates of gold – Away on the mountains wild and bare, away from the tender Shepherd’s care, Away from the tender Shepherd’s care. ‘Lord, Thou hast here Thy ninety and nine’ Are they not enough for Thee? But the Shepherd made answer: ‘This of Mine Has wandered away from Me; And although the road be rough and steep, I go to the desert to find My sheep, I go to the desert to find My sheep.’ But none of the ransomed ever knew How deep were the waters crossed; Nor how dark was the night that the Lord passed thru ere He found His sheep that was lost. Out in the desert He heard its cry—Sick and helpless, and ready to die; Sick and helpless, and ready to die. But all thro’ the mountains, thunder riven, and up from the rocky steep, There arose a glad cry to the gate of heaven, ‘Rejoice! I have found My sheep!’ And the angels echoed around the throne, ‘Rejoice, for the Lord brings back His own! Rejoice, for the Lord brings back His own.” The Ninety and Nine; Elizabeth C. Clephane; Ira D. Sankey
Matthew 18:12 “How think ye? If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13: And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more over that sheep than over the ninety and nine which went not astray."
Yes, Sister Pam, that is what I was trying to say! He cares for each of us and would not want even one of us out of the shelter of the fold. He is the Good Shepherd who would go out and find us and bring us back to safety. Thank you
Lwood said
Josh
Duhhhhhhh, Where have you been???
Not listening evidently!!!!!!!!!
Maybe you need to start over and read the post..
lwood,
Remember -- "Think before hitting 'Send.'" Let's all please try to let cooler heads prevail.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
Yo, Ed. The Bible is always, one way or another, relevant.
I didn't say the Bible wasn't relevant. I said the "bear story" wasn't relevant, at least your friends rather imaginative interpretation and embellishment of it.
A similar story surrounding Moses and the destruction of some Israelites who oppose him was told as "advice" to an ex-deacon friend of mine by a deacon officer. Of course, the deacon officer said, "I'm not saying that's going to happen to you." (Yeah, right.)
Maybe we should pause here and relate the story of Ananias and Sapphira who weren't completely open and honest with their financial dealings when handling the Lord's money?
Josh,
And once those that have done that have been ignored, belittled and bullied, what should we do then. Evil depends upon good men doing nothing.
THE CHURCH CHOIR PLEDGE
Yep, get ready, because that is what is next on the agenda. The choir was approached this Wednesday to find out who had problems with the way things were being done in the church...heh..heh..and are planning on breaking the group down into smaller groups of 10-20 at a time to facilate our understanding and willingness to "conform" to our leaders.
Incredible isn't it.
I think there must be something in the water. This could get quite interesting. I don't think that there is any doubt where I stand on this issue. Let me know if you need some clarification.
I pledge that I will clap on demand, wave my hands in the air when requested, jump around like a nut if you want. Shoot, I'll even turn cart wheels up and down the aisles in the name of facilitating the enticement of the crowd into praise.
Tim,
That could be hazardous to your health! Just look what happened to these unsuspecting souls!
NASS
From Merrium-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary Eleventh Edition: "abuse (noun) 1. a corrupt practice or custom, 2. improper use or excessive treatment 3. a deceitful act, 4. language that condemns or villifies, usually unjustly and angrily 5. physical maltreatment...mean, vehemently expressed condemnation or disapproval. ABUSE the most general term usually implies the anger of the speaker and harshness of the language"
MKW, I think what you are referring to would be classified as torture. In my opinion, the word abuse fits. It's not pretty, is it?
Abuse carries a connotation that may be somewhat inaccurate. Perhaps there is another word that could be used?
"Abuse" is a loaded work in today's societal use. In everyday useage "abuse" typically infers physical abuse unless a qualifier such as "verbal abuse" is used. When I hear the word "abused" I picture physical abuse. It is a strong word as it is used today. When I hear "harass" I picture the verbal type of abuse. However, Sister Pam's use of the word does fit within the selections offered by the dictinary definition of the word.
Several of these look like they would work. Not that you'd want a leader to treat staff in a way that makes any of these words applicable.
—Synonyms
alternative words.
1. misapply. 2. ill-use, maltreat, injure, harm, hurt. 3. vilify, vituperate, berate, scold; slander, defame, calumniate, traduce. 6. misapplication. 7. slander, aspersion. Abuse, censure, invective all mean strongly expressed disapproval. Abuse implies an outburst of harsh and scathing words against another (often one who is defenseless): abuse directed against an opponent. Censure implies blame, adverse criticism, or hostile condemnation: severe censure of acts showing bad judgment. Invective applies to strong but formal denunciation in speech or print, often in the public interest: invective against graft.
—Antonyms
praise.
Tim said...
I pledge that I will clap on demand, wave my hands in the air when requested, jump around like a nut if you want. Shoot, I'll even turn cart wheels up and down the aisles in the name of facilitating the enticement of the crowd into praise.
1:38 AM, November 11, 2006
New BBC Open Forum said...
Tim,
That could be hazardous to your health! Just look what happened to these unsuspecting souls!
NASS
I appreciate a good bit of hyperbole as much as the next person. Even if the next person is Jon Lovitz.
However, good jokes are based, at least to a minute degree, in the truth. Since there has never been a demand for clapping, hand-waving, jumping, cartwheels, or any other form of "enticement" provided by the choir, perhaps you can explain the presumed truth that gave birth to such hyperbole?
Otherwise, you people are just mocking those who worship in a different way than you do--and surely, that can't be the case.
--Mike
NO
Mike,
On the contrary, It is those who mock the way that I worship because it is not as charasmatic as what they prefer. Unfortunately, these are the people that are supposed to be our leaders.
And they mock us.
mkw,
Please tell us what Biblical basis you have to make a grand stand show of support. Do tell also, what Biblical basis you have to pray and let God handle it all, while we do nothing else. Remember to keep your text within context. God has Biblically sent men and women to confront and condemn evil for a long time. I don't know why God chooses to use men and women to something that he could so easily do for Himself. His ways are not my ways, but I follow Him, in whatever direction that may lead.
mkw,
Also, no one has asked you to detail things of which you know nothing about. We do however, ask that those that do be allowed to speak. It is heresay and innuendo to say that their claims are pointless.
My brother you have written much, without saying anything.
Since the subject is being discussed in here, too, I'll repost this:
ilovebbc,
While your heart may be in the right place, your note, I think, would not. This would be no different than the person back in the "Tithes" thread who commented, "I have been putting my tithe envelope in each week with a message such as 'I am withholding my offering until all business of the church has been resolved.'" Both may reflect your opinions about everything that's going on right now, but neither is the time nor the place to express your opinion or to "send a message," regardless of the message, to the pastor or anyone else. Anyone who can't give an offering without making a written "political statement" along with it should just not give -- in my humble opinion.
Tim's right. Don't turn the offering chest into a ballot box which is what you'd be doing.
NASS
bell22,
NO
NASS
bbcdad,
An interesting thing about Titus 3, it is preceded by Titus 1 and 2.
Titus 1:10-14
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14 not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
This can be a difficult passage and it well may be misdirected to those of this blog. I will however, expound upon it.
Verse 10-refers to religious leaders in the church with a deceitful message.
Verse 11-refers to their purpose, which is dishonest money.
Verse 12-refers to their sin in demoralizing men.
Verse 13-verifies that it is true and commands that these be dutifully reprimanded.
Verse 14-states that these should be restored to the truth
Titus 2 proceeds to detail the qualifications of a deacon and Titus 3 is a description of the unity that should exist within the Chrurch.
My dear brother before we can get to Titus 3, we must first go thru Titus 1 and 2.
Thanks Tim. Well said and said well.
choice_is_yours said... Mike Bratton, don't ever change! (much). You are beautiful in Christ. Go with me to a Mormon or Bhuddist blog sometime. We can witness to them together.
Send me an e-mail whenever you have someplace in mind. I became involved in Internet witnessing and apologetics well over ten years ago, and it has been gratifying over that time to see how God uses people like us working in this medium to spread the Gospel message, and to see people radically and dramatically saved.
--Mike
I have waited a while to see if this mess would get better. Apparently it is not. I never thought I would say that I was ashamed to be a member of Bellevue but I am. I am going to look for a new church home. One where leadership respects its membership more than current leadership at Bellevue is.
StumblingServant
I have not but I did not put an e-mail address in my profile. Otherwise, I am beyond certain that I would have.
And pray tell, was there a reasoning behind them wanting folks to stop posting.
Well at least it was civil. I don't understand why anyone with an ounce of sense would go to the communication committee knowing how those that have already questioned the leadership have been treated.
Also, just reading there I imagine that there are a number of people, myself included that would like church business contained within the church walls.
They simply need to let us know as a congregation exactly when it is that they intend on having an open business meeting.
stumblingservant,
Surprisingly, I haven't.
NBBCOF
That is a shocker. I would have thought that you would have received many asking to shut down completely.
choice_is_yours said...
Brother Mike,
I think you have already seen these:
mormons
buddhists
We can always look for something better later.
I recommend that you use an anonymous name.
I'm taking off from here for the next 24 hours.
Thanks for your reply!
Choice
3:55 PM, November 11, 2006
Much obliged. As I have opportunity, I'll peek in.
You might have guessed, though, that going anonymous is something I've never felt led of the Lord to do; consequently, it's something with which I heartily disagree. It seems to remind some non-Christians that they're actually dialoguing with a real human being.
--Mike
Ah, but the real reason I dropped by this evening:
What are your plans for the "Showdown," everyone?
As the hours tick by, are you planning to invite friends over to watch on your computers?
Or planning, perhaps, to get to church extra-early and save a row of seats down front?
Inquiring minds, y'know...
--Mike
Tim said:
"Also, just reading there I imagine that there are a number of people, myself included that would like church business contained within the church walls.
They simply need to let us know as a congregation exactly when it is that they intend on having an open business meeting."
Tim, we have been put in a "double bind" situation; and that is a very unhealthy thing to do to someone.
DOUBLE BIND from Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
"Thus the essence of a double-bind is two conflicting demands, neither of which can be ignored, which leave the victim torn both ways in such a way that whichever demand they try to meet, the other demand cannot be met. "I must do it but I can't do it" is a typical description of the double-bind experience. Thus victims may express feelings of extreme anxiety in such a situation as they attempt to fulfill the demands of the primary injunction, but are met with obvious contradictions in their actions."
Churchmouse,
Excellent point. Thanks for the defenition as well. That was a term that I had never heard before.
By the way just curious are you a country or city mouse.
Uh Oh. Hmmmmm. I need to think about that and get back to you.
Churchmouse,
All right your a dead give away. Only a member of our staff or deacon body would so blatently avoid answering such simple a simple question.
Why does a deacon or anyone else need to sign anything at all once they're already serving? I don't care how they change the wording. It's insulting to think you've got to sign a "pledge" to continue to serve in a voluntary (i.e. unpaid) position in your church. If after going through the screening process to become deacons, they still need all the deacons to sign something like that, then there's something wrong.
NASS
mostlylurkin said...
From Mike, whoever you are, Bratton
What are your plans for the "Showdown," everyone?
WARNING!!!
Do not post anything or talk to strangers about our showdown plans. MB will surely rat on us.
You know, whoever you are (apologies--couldn't pass it up), I do hope and pray that when Sunday afternoon rolls around November 19th that we can all laugh about how talk of a "Showdown" was much ado about nothing.
However, as the anti-Bellevue mentality is more clearly and fully manifested, my concern is that we just won't get that opportunity.
--Mike
deceivedagain,
The communications committee told me that...
...Steve tried to pay for the bill himself and was not allowed to by the Club, just like he had done previously.
...the Club didn't take his personal credit card.
...it was direct billed to the church.
... Steve reimbursed the church for his daughter's party.
I understood that a credit card was not involved, but rather an invoice type of billing was used. If you find out differently, please let me know and I will return to the committee in order to clear up and revisit our prior conversation. There is no room for misunderstanding in my conversation with them.
*
WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...
Holy Scriptures to live by:
Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
And imagine that Pastor Gaines and other senior staff have been, and are being, hammered for attempting to do just that.
Thank you for the Scripture.
--Mike
Truth Hunter,
Don't bother.
From the start of our marriage and our Christian walk (which happened within a year or so from each other), we have rarely put our name on our tithing envelopes. The only times we did were when we would mail in our tithes. (But even then, we knew that if God allowed our tithes to be "lost" in the mail, the Lord probably had a different plan about where it needed to go.)
I understand why one records his or her name on tithing envelopes: tax deductions... But we never liked the idea, even for taxes. We believe that only God should know what we give. It's not that I don't think I'm not accountable to our church, but tithing issues seem to be a very dangerous way to guilt others into doing what the Pastor wants them to do. We have seen this in Gains's demands to have the deacons' tithing records checked. (Has he already started to fire any deacons for this issue? If not, who will be first?)
BTW, why are the deacons' tithing records up for grabs but Gains's salary isn't? Can we see how much Gains gives in tithes and maybe estimate how much he makes? I doubt that will happen.
Anyway, I'm not advocating not giving tihes. I'm not really advocating anything in regards to this matter, except that tithes should not be used to manipulate the deacons.
What I AM saying is that we simply don't put our names on the tithing envelopes. Now, does this mean that we should be treated as if we don't tithe? Just because there's no record of it doesn't mean we weren't obedient. The only record that matters is God's.
A.
housewife,
Unless you give cash, they record anything you give from the information on your check or credit card whether your name is on the envelope or not.
Oh yeah. We usually give cash since we don't like to use checks. (They take to long to be cashed...) Sometimes we'll use money orders but we usually just stick to cash. =)
housewife,
You're a good example of why checking anyone's giving record could give the person checking it (or the person having it checked) the wrong idea. I know I've dropped cash in the offering plate on occasion and did make a note for the IRS but didn't think it was important anyone else know I was giving (or how much). So you deacons remember, if you're contributing cash to always put it in an envelope and put your name on it! Someone might be watching.
NASS
stillwaitingandwatching said...
Mike Bratton,
Do you use the same "tone" in your internet witnessing to reach the lost for Jesus as you do to try to "win" the "anti-Bellevue folk" to Steve Gaines? If not, then do you think you would be able to use whatever tone you are using with them with us? It would go a long way for us to be able to see your point of view. Just a thought.
"Tone" is a marvelous thing to be able to attribute to the written word. Objectively speaking, it only goes so far--but when you have a point of view that conflicts with another, accusing that person of a negative "tone" in the absence of evidence gives you at least one more rock to throw.
Since you brought it up, I've never attempted to "win" anyone to Pastor Gaines--and I would suggest that your analogy is borderline-blasphemous at best. How anti-Bellevue people conduct themselves is between those people and God; all I'm doing is trying to warn those folks away from their hate-saturated behaviors.
one member said...
And how did Mike Bratton's personal web page and that of his "witness" to the Muslims and Buhiddists get posted to the thread about deacon loyalty? Is he a deacon?
As I've answered more than once, no.
His sarcastic and "in your face" attitude towards those that post here is a slap in the face of Jesus.
Marvelously judgmental and confrontational comment--right out of the playbook. It gets easy to toss those brickbats from the bushes, doesn't it?
Tell me how he can be a "witness" to anyone?
You'll have to ask the people with whom I've shared the Gospel of Christ over the years. Apparently, God's seen fit to use even such a wretch as I.
--Mike
one member said...
Yeah, I guess you are right. God used a donkey once.
6:55 PM, November 12, 2006
You prove the point over and over again. Hate and confrontation are the only tools in the "SB" toolbox, so they're the only tools that get used.
Be honest--in a thousand years, you wouldn't speak so impolitely to anyone face-to-face. But when you're confident that you can't be held accountable for your slurs, you let them run wild and run free.
Thing is, you aren't anonymous to God. Something to consider.
--Mike
one member said... This is my point exactly, when you say "YOU", you do not seem to feel that being held accountable to God means "ALL" of us, therefore that includes "YOU", and should be "WE" will be held accountable to God.
No, when I said "you," in this instance I meant you, singular. I've been in this medium a few years, and I understand that I'm accountable to God for everything I type--that's one of the reasons I don't hide behind a fake name.
You have spilt out your distain for your fellow Christian over and over.
No, what I've said "over and over" is that if I didn't love you (all of you, plural), I'd leave you to your own devices. I've asked over and over again which is more loving--to warn people away from behavior that will injure them, or to remain silent and allow them to injure themselves?
If my failing memory serves, I've yet to get an answer.
I just get sick of seeing anything with your name attached because I know it is not of love.
Then you've jumped to an incorrect conclusion.
I am glad I rattled your ire, you seem to show your true colors then.
Is that a Cyndi Lauper song I hear in the background? Or a Kodak ad, perhaps?
Folks who share your viewpoint, whoever you are, make me sad--I will admit to even being at the point of tears Thursday morning. It was then that your group began to make it even more clear that any answer anyone at Bellevue will provide your group with is irrelevant, since the viewpoint's core motivations are hate and confrontation.
Fascist salutes and an supposedly ominous reference to a "Showdown" make it clear what this nonsense is all about; if you want to associate with it, it's your choice. Wouldn't recommend it, though.
And as for "raising my ire"? Please. I'm Christmas shopping, watching a movie with my family, and waiting for my sinus medication to kick in. It's hard to fit in "ire-raising" amidst all the smiles and sniffles.
Your response was revealing, though, since we've learned something about you that makes you, in your own words, "glad"--thinking you've successfully enraged other people. Hate, and confrontation. Something else for you to consider.
--Mike
mkw,
As you well know, Mike will ask a question, belittle the answer, pretend he has not gotten an answer, most of the time he comes across like a badger with a bladder problem. Now really, is it my fault.
Tim said...
mkw,
As you well know, Mike will ask a question, belittle the answer, pretend he has not gotten an answer, most of the time he comes across like a badger with a bladder problem. Now really, is it my fault.
Another fact-filled, issue-oriented epistle. Much obliged, Tim.
--Mike
P.S.: MKW, thank you for your kind words.
Mike,
I am glad that you got something out of it.
choice,
Please e-mail me if you don't mind. Just need to ask you something.
NBBCOF
Not sure this is the proper thread to post this but here is goes anyway. I am disgusted with all the arguing that is going on with both sides. I have said in the past that I have some issues with the Pastor and it primairly concerns how Dr. Whitmire was dealt with. Recently I approached two deacons about my concern. One really had nothing to say but the other suggested if I was unhappy to leave. Well my wife and I did that just recently after being members since 1980. I have had enough of this attitude regardless of who is right. And Mike when I have expressed my opinon or concerns you choose to demean them. My spirit is really troubled by that and also at how some fellow believers will jump at rummors. The situation with Dr. Whitmire is fact and no one can hide it or even defend it. It was flat wrong. So ALL my brothers and sisters, the tone of these posts are getting even more mean spirited and that just is not right. Some one suggested taking a 24-hour break and spend it in prayer, regardless of your position. I suggest that all blogers take a 48 hour break and spend it in prayer. I love you ALL. God bless.
mkw,
I was really saddened to hear you say a few days ago that "most of the folks" in the NBBCOF are "not very well-equipped" to handle "intelligent and civil conversations about the issues."
Now you say, regarding Mike, "I haven't seen anything but well-considered discussions launched by him."
Isn't it then obvious that "most of us folks" here just aren't "intelligent" enough to see what you're seeing?
You also said to Mike, "I applaud you for hanging in there and attempting to have intelligent and civil conversations about the issues, but I'm afraid most of the folks reading the other blogspot [that would be here, right?] are not very well-equipped to handle such. 'Pearls before swine,' I believe our Lord called such exercises in futility."
I'd be careful trying to discuss anything with "the folks" here because when one casts one's "pearls of wisdom" before swine and then rolls around in the mud with the swine, one is going to get... muddy.
This will be my last word on this tonight. None of us is accomplishing anything by coming here and arguing. I'll be deleting anything after this that isn't stated in a civil, respectful tone and on topic. And no, I don't need anyone telling me to "delete his post because he called me a name." Grow up, people! Take David's advice and take a break for 24 or 48 hours if you need to. Then come back rested and ready to act like the adults we are.
Thank you.
NBBCOF
MKW,
Please be very careful not to be deceived by those posts that seem to "bait" Mike Bratton. They are random posts that seem to have been prompted to incite a "reaction" from Mike. He very willingly uses them to go on the attack about how uncaring, sinful and low-down we all are. I beg you to be careful not to assume that the poster is somone who is in our camp. Some things are not as they always seem. Unfortunately, Mike has "baited" Tim, resulting in the exchange you just disected. Having followed the posts of both men since the beginning of this, I can assure you that there are those whose motives are most definitely questionable in these exchanges. I assume that I will be the next one "villified" for this post, but it will be worth it if you will just go back and read all the posts and look at them thru another's perspective. I personally know Mike Bratton and I can assure you that things are not as they seem.
Choice, beware.
Amen, here, here and good grief.
Amen is right!
This thread has gotten way too long and drifted off topic, so let's tie a knot in it.
PLEASE GO TO THE "NEW DEACON LOYALTY PLEDGE" THREAD AT THE TOP OF THE MAIN PAGE AND TRY TO STAY SOMEWHAT ON TOPIC.
nass, mom4 & andrew,
I appreciate your defense and support, even when it comes at a time when I least deserve it. I have done my best to answer Mike and my answers have fallen on deaf ears.
To all that may be offended I apologize. It is something that I have done more frequently than I care to admit within this blog, but never the less it is so. Frustration has got the better of me. I will not even say that it was a mistake of the mind and not the heart. It was purely out of a sinful heart. I will try to keep my light heartedness on a level that is less than personal in the future.
I do continue to stand upon the principles that I have set forth. Our church is in serious trouble and it is not an issue of meaningless sarcasm that is at the root of it.
Tim,
May the love of Jesus Himself abound in all our hearts. I love you man - you too Mike. Let's press on from here...
and let's head over to the new deacon loyalty pledge thread
PLEASE GO TO THE "NEW DEACON LOYALTY PLEDGE" THREAD TO CONTINUE DISCUSSION OF THIS TOPIC.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
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